Sitting of 26 May 1820

SUNDAY NEWSPAPERS.
Mr. Courtenaypresented a petition, signed by certain dealers and venders of newspapers. The petitioners complained that in consequence of the great increase of the Sunday newspapers, and their being exposed for sale on that day, much injury had been
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done to the public morals, and the breach of the Sabbath was thereby occasioned to an alarming extent. The petitioners said, that many of them had made great sacrifices in their opposition to this practice, whilst others of them were not able, in consequence of their limited circumstances, to reject the business, which would only have the effect of throwing it into the hands of others who had not such scruples. They said that the increase of the Sunday newspapers, and the principles they contained, had a direct and alarming tendency to the destruction of public morals; that their having been sold and read on Sundays kept numbers of persons from attending divine service. The petitioners prayed that the House would adopt such measures as might suppress so great an evil. The hon. and learned gentleman, in presenting the petition, said, he ever felt that the true liberty of the press was most endangered by the abuse of it, and that maxim was illustrated in the conduct of some of those publications. He felt it to be his duty to present the petition, at the same time that he had declared to the petitioners that he could not promise to found any measure upon it. He therefore simply moved, that the petition do lie on the table.
Mr. Lambtonsaid, that he would not object to any set of men approaching that House in a constitutional way. At the same time he could not help expressing his extreme disgust at the hypocritical cant of the petitioners. That the circulation of Sunday newspapers was injurious to public morals, was a doctrine to which lie could not subscribe. He thought that wherever the press laboured to oppose the advances of slavery and corruption, the circulation of newspapers on any day was a moral as well as a constitutional act; but if those dealers and venders thought otherwise, if they felt those conscientious scruples, they might easily retire from a pursuit, which they considered immoral. He could not but condemn the language of the petition; he could not sit silent and hear so gross a charge brought against the Sunday newspapers. Where, he asked, was to be found an immoral of indecent, or seditious Sunday newspaper? He did not know of one. He thought, on the contrary, that the newspapers conveyed instruction, political as well as moral, to the people of England. He thought that the peti-

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tioners, instead of coming forward to attack the Sunday newspapers, would have done well to remain at home, and endeavour to amend their own lives. This would be more agreeable to the true principles of Christianity.
Ordered to lie on the table.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE—ROB. C. BURTON, ESQ.
Mr. Wynn presented the following Report from the Committee of Privileges: 1. Resolved, That it appears to this committee, that the action of Christopher Bolton, Robert Gleadow, and Caius Thompson, against John Eyles, esq. warden of his majesty's prison of the Fleet, being founded upon the alleged escape of Robert Christie Burton, esq., from his custody as warden, which escape was no other than a discharge of the said Robert Christie Burton, under the order of this House, of the 28th day of January, 1819, the commencing and prosecuting of the said action is a high breach of the privilege of this House. 2. "That it appears to this committee, that Christopher Bolton, Robert Gleadow, Caius Thompson, Charles Frost, and Archibald Rosser, have been concerned in commencing and prosecuting the said action."—The first resolution being agreed to, it was ordered—on the motion of Mr. Wynn, "That Christopher Bolton, &c. do attend this House on the 5th of June."

BOSTON ELECTION.
The order of the day was read for resuming the adjourned debate on the Petition of W. Augustus Johnson, esq. On the question being put,
Sir R. Heronsaid, that the question before the House was one of the greatest importance, and one with which the House ought not to interfere upon grounds so slender as those advanced by the hon. gentleman who made the motion. The hon. gentleman principally relied on two grounds; first, the absence of Mr. Ellis; and, secondly, that the House could not anticipate a case which would come before a committee. If the last ground were tenable, the House had in fact no case before them at present. It was argued last night, and he believed it was the opinion of most members present, that if the qualification of the absent candidate were called for and not produced at the election, he could not be legally returned; but at the Boston election, the qualification of Mr. Ellis had been demanded, and the returning officer, after consulting with
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some persons, not lawyers, decided that it was not necessary for the friends of Mr. Ellis to produce a qualification. As the House had determined to reject the numerous petitions of the people of England for a more equal representation, it ought surely to vindicate, in the fullest extent, the right of the people to that representation which it had thought fit to give them. If the committee was postponed to the time proposed, in consequence of the absence of Mr. Ellis, the session of parliament might pass away. He did not rely on the declaration, that Mr. Ellis was on his passage from the Cape of Good Hope. If Old Sarum elected the dey of Algiers, would the House allow him to take his seat? Certainly not. The dey of Algiers was not more incapable of holding a seat in that House than Mr. Ellis. The hon. member read an extract from an act, which provided, that any person holding a new office under the Crown, or one created by the Crown after the 25th of October 1795, should be incapable of holding a seat in parliament. From the returns of the civil department of the Cape, it appeared that Mr. Ellis held the office of deputy colonial secretary, an office appointed by the Crown.
Mr. Wynnwas sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but he thought he was pursuing a very extraordinary course in calling upon the House to discuss the merits of the case in the present stage. That should be the business of a committee.
Sir R. Heronwas obliged to the hon. member for setting him right; but he conceived he was driven into the observations which he had made by the application of the hon. gentleman opposite. He thought it right to refer all to the committee. He was able to prove, by viva voce evidence, that Mr. Ellis acted officially at the Cape. He thought no case was made out sufficient to induce the House to interfere and take the question from the committee.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that many members did not know upon what grounds the hon. member moved.
Mr. Courtenaysaid, that this was a petion which had been fixed for consideration on the 6th of June, and that he, in consequence of the absence of Mr. Ellis, wished to have the time enlarged to the 18th of July.
Mr. Bernalsaid, that Mr. Ellis had no authorised agent in this country.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that his reason for offering a word on this occasion was, that

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the hon. member opposite had said that he had no doubt that Mr. Ellis was disqualified from holding his seat in parliament. About that he thought there could be no doubt, and the only point on which the question turned was, did he accept the office. His hon. friend (sir R. Heron) said he would adduce proof of that fact. Under such circumstances, was anything so monstrous as to say that the House must, because the electors of Boston had elected Mr. Ellis, presume that he ought to sit? Would any man in the House get up and say he thought Mr. Ellis eligible? Would the hon. gentleman say, he had any doubt on the subject, that Mr. Ellis had no idea when he went to the Cape that he would be elected for Boston? He would wish to know, whether any member would not be at liberty to move for a new writ for a member in the room of Mr. Ellis? If the House made use of the Grenville act, he hoped they would not use it for the purpose of mischief. The effect of the present motion would be, that Boston would be unrepresented for this year and probably for the next. No one doubted that the electors had a right to elect Mr. Ellis; but the hon. member who made the motion had declared that the impression on his mind was, that the office of Mr. Ellis was a disqualification, and the only question now was, did he accept it? He thought the present motion was not a fair way of dealing with parliament; he thought it competent for any member to move that a new writ be issued for Boston.
The Speakersaid, he thought the petition on the table must be disposed of before any member would be at liberty to move for a new writ. The next question was, how the petition could be withdrawn after recognizances had been entered into. By a clause in the 28th of Geo. 3rd, the House could not issue a writ unless the seat were vacated by death or some other cause, which must arise subsequently to the election; and by the 53rd of Geo. 3rd, it was lawful for the House to permit a petition to be withdrawn upon matter which might subsequently arise verified upon oath.
Mr. Bathurstbegged the House to consider that the object of the present motion was only to remove the consideration of the petition from the 6th of June to the 18th of July, a day on which another petition of a similar nature was to be taken into consideration; and it might happen, that the person complained of in that peti-
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tion would be proved in the committee to be as incapable of holding a seat as Mr. Ellis. An hon. member had said that it was late in the session, and the consequence would be, that it would go over for another year. In that respect the petition was not used differently from others of a similar description. The sum and substance of the observations were, that it could be proved that Mr. Ellis was incapable of accepting a seat; but such proof could not, he conceived, be now submitted to the House. The House had been informed by the' Chair, that they had not the power to reject the ordinary mode of proceeding adopted by parliament, and that proof could only be offered in the usual way adopted by the House.
Sir R. Heronsaid, he did not undertake to prove that Mr. Ellis was now in possession of the office, but that he did accept it.
Mr. Broughamsaid, the House ought to hear all before they made up their minds on the present case. He would suppose this motion was never made; and if he had the same impression on his mind as the hon. gentleman opposite, he should hesitate before he would make such a motion, as the hon. gentleman seemed to be certain that the utmost delay would only tend to show that Mr. Ellis was ineligible. For his part, he thought a greater difficulty existed in point of fact than in point of law. He thought the person who proposed this measure was not a friend to Mr. Ellis. If the committee were ballotted for, and in the act of sitting, he would defy the petitioner to make out his case; and why? His hon. friend said it was an office created since 1795; yes, but it must be proved that Mr. Ellis was in possession of it on the day upon which he was elected. If any member moved for a new writ for a person to serve in the room of Mr. Ellis, it might turn out that some other person was entitled to take the seat. It appeared to him that it should be proved that Mr. Ellis actually held the office on the day of his return for Boston. He thought that could not be ascertained, except by the appearance of Mr. Ellis, or by sending out to the Cape. He did not see the possibility of proving the contents of the petition. The gentleman alluded to had left the Cape a month previous to the election; and he therefore could not say that Mr. Ellis held the office at the time of his return for Boston. It might happen, if a new writ were issued, that

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Mr. Ellis would come in a day after and say, "I resigned a day or two previous to my return." What then would the House do in order to extricate itself from such a situation? The only way, in his opinion, by which the difficulty could be got rid of was, by a new act of parliament.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he apprehended that official intelligence from the Cape would be sufficient to warrant the committee in coining to a decision on the question, but at the present moment it was quite impossible to have any intelligence of that kind. Me did not think it possible to move for a new writ, now that the case was sub judice. The Grenville act deprived the House of that jurisdiction. From the words in the petition it appeared, that the petitioner did not only intend to contest the right of Mr. Ellis, but to urge his own; and if the House would now take the question into consideration, the parties would be deprived of that protection intended to be afforded by the Grenville act. On general grounds, he thought the House ought not to act hastily in depriving a man of what was of the highest respectability in the country—namely, a seat in the House of Commons. If the question were permitted to stand over until next session it would be a hard case; but in postponing it to the 18th of July, he did not think any great injury would be done.
Mr. Courtenayadmitted, that considering the office Mr. Ellis held as a notoriously new one, he was inclined to suppose him ineligible; but he had stated that there were many possible ways in which he might have become eligible.
The question "that the order for considering the petition of W. Augustus Johnson, on the 6th of June next, be discharged, and that the petition be taken into consideration on the 18th of July next," was then put and agreed to.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL.
Lord Althorpproceeded to describe the principal provisions of the Insolvent Debtors' bill, the seond reading of which he was about to move. In consequence of what had passed with regard to this measure upon a former evening, he felt it necessary to preface his motion with a few observations. It was now universally admitted among candid and considerate men, that the imprisonment of a debtor should not be continued at the will of a creditor, in other words, that a creditor
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should net have the power of imprisoning his debtor for such a period as could not possibly do himself any service, while it must be ruinous and tormenting to the debtor. Upon this indisputable principle, the late law for the relief of insolvent debtors was founded. That law was, however, deemed by some persons to be so defective, that a number of petitions, complaining of its operation, were presented to the House within the last parliament, and these petitions were referred to the consideration of a committee, who found that certain of their allegations were not without grounds, but it was also found that many of the complaints of the petitioners were as applicable to the old law as to that against which they were especially directed. The principal objection to the late law was, that the creditors had no power to inquire into the effects of the debtor at the time of his arrest, or until the period of his application for a final discharge. This it was proposed to remedy in the bill before the House. But as it was objected to the bill brought forward in the course of the last session, that a debtor should not be peremptorily required to deliver up, on the petition or demand of a certain proportion of his creditors, a schedule of his effects, within fourteen days after his arrest, that period being deemed too short, it was proposed, in the present bill, that if such a demand should be made by the creditors within those fourteen days, the debtor should be allowed fourteen days time to comply with that demand after the petition containing it was presented. The debtor was, however, in the mean time, liable to be called upon for the surrender of his property into the hands of an assignee of the court. Another complaint preferred against the late law was, that the agents who practiced in the insolvent debtors' court were not attorneys, or in a due degree under the control of the court, and to remedy this it was proposed that none but regularly admitted attorneys should be allowed to practise. But against this proposition many objections were urged, and among others it was stated, that if none but regularly admitted attorneys were allowed to practise, the whole of the business was likely to be thrown into the hands of the lowest class of attorneys, from whose practices more evil was apprehended than from any description of agents hitherto connected with this court. Hence it was deemed expedient to propose in the pre-

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sent bill, that the court should have the power of appointing agents for the insolvents, whether attorneys or not, according to its discretion, while it should be open to the creditors to appoint their own agents or attorneys. The next important provision in this bill was, that of enabling creditors to compel debtors to take advantage of the act, and to surrender their property after they should have been in custody for a period of nine months. It was of course meant to include in this provision, that if any surplus property should remain after his debts were discharged, such surplus should be delivered over to the debtor, according to the principle of the old law. With regard to the property acquired by debtors after their discharge, it was found by the inquiries of the committee before alluded to, that notwithstanding the provision of the law upon the subject, very little if any such property had been found available for the benefit of the creditors. One of the new provisions, therefore, was, to enact some security for the creditors upon this subject, by investing the court with the power of prohibiting any debts found due to the debtor after his discharge from being paid to him; and also to intercept any legacy which might be bequeathed to him before it reached his hands; the funds arising from such sources to be placed in the hands of the assignee of the debtor, for the satisfaction of the creditors.—Now, as to the constitution of the court: according to the late law, only one judge presided over its proceedings, and that arrangement, it was proposed by the bill of last session, still to continue, with the addition of two examiners. But upon farther consideration, and especially in consequence of the multiplicity of business to be done, previous to the final decision upon the case of petitioning debtors, that business being of such a nature as to require great attention and acute discrimination, it was thought desirable to have three judges appointed. If there were only one judge, it must be obvious that in case of his removal or sudden death, it might be very difficult, if not impracticable, at once to find a successor duly qualified to conduct the affairs of such a court; and the delay, with the inconveniences of a change of system, perhaps, would be productive of serious injury to the debtors.
Mr. Macdonaldrose, not to oppose the motion, but to make a few remarks upon
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the proposition with which his noble friend had concluded. With the proposition of appointing three judges id the court under consideration, he could by no means agree. He objected to such an appointment upon the ground of the increased expense which it must occasion, and any addition to the public expense was peculiarly objectionable at a period like the present. But the ground of necessity alleged for this new appointment was, he must take leave to say, not at all of an adequate nature. In his view, indeed, the additional or what was termed the previous business of this court, might be done in a more effectual way, by the two examiners which were proposed on a former occasion, to inquire into each case, than by the two new judges whom the noble lord now recommended. But upon what ground did the noble lord think it necessary to propose three judges, while he thought one judge sufficient in the month of December last? The business of the insolvent court could not surely require more previous inquiry than that of any of our courts of equity, and in those courts the previous business was all done by officers delegated by each court to inquire and report, but not to adjudge upon each case respectively. Why, then, should not the same principle be applied to the insolvent debtors court, that was found to operate with such effect in the other courts of justice? The expense of the new appointments was, he repeated, a considerable objection to his noble friend's plan—more particularly, as any previous business which the two new judges might have to discharge, and for which, no doubt, it was meant to grant them settled salaries, might be quite as well done by examiners, for a moderate fee upon each case. What he had said on the discussion of the motion, with respect to the appointing the vice-chancellor he could not help adverting to upon the present occasion, namely, that the public should not be encumbered with the expense arising out of the appointment of any new judge, while there were such anomalies as the Welch judges, who were comparatively unemployed. Here, he observed, the public might find a fund of judges, who could be used in aid of any of the ordinary tribunals in Westminster-hall, if such aid were required, or to discharge the duties of any new judicial office that might be deemed necessary. These judges could find ample leisure

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from the performance of their duty in Wales to attend to any such objects. Should, then, any additional judges be deemed necessary for the business of the Insolvent Debtors court, he hoped that it would be determined to draw upon this fund of judges, rather than to encumber the country with the expense of any new appointments. His noble friend had observed that it was necessary to have more than one judge in the court alluded to, lest upon his death there should be any delay or difficulty in finding a person competent to succeed. But how could such difficulty be apprehended, as an adequate successor could be readily selected from among the practising barristers in this court, and he must suppose that a successor to such an office was most likely to be taken from that body. Such certainly appeared to be the more eligible course. His noble friend's apprehension, then, upon this ground furnished by no means a satisfactory reason for his proposition. But his noble friend's apprehension of the inconvenience that might result to a court where only one judge presided, in case of that judge's death, because another might not be readily found to take his place, would seem to call for the appointment of other new judges as well as those at present proposed; for it would be recollected that there was only one judge in the court of chancery, as well as in the vice chancellor's and the Roll's court. If more sufficient reasons were not assigned for his noble friend's proposition than he had yet heard, he should feel it his duty to move an amendment in the committee upon this bill, that instead of three judges, there should be only one judge, with two examiners appointed in the court under consideration.
Mr. Brightthought that some means should be devised to make a distinction, in the operation of the measure before the House, between the case of the honest unfortunate and that of the fraudulent debtor; for it was obviously unjust that the same measure of punishment should be inflicted alike upon all debtors before they could avail themselves of the proposed law. Some scale of imprisonment then, or some criterion of distinction, ought to be established. The cases of fraud and of suffering disclosed before the committee upon this subject forcibly called for such an arrangement. If an accusation of fraud were made by any one creditor, by the practice of the Insolvent Debtors court
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the accused was allowed to compound with that accuser, while he was released with regard to the claims of his other creditors. Of this practice he very much disapproveed, thinking that whenever any accusation of fraud was proved, the fraudulent debtor should be remanded for the usual period, upon all the claims preferred against him; for this law should in no case be allowed to shelter the fraudulent debtor from condign punishment. Some provisions should also be made in this bill to facilitate the recovery of property acquired by the debtor after being person all discharged from the claims of his creditors. He concurred with the noble lord in thinking that three judges were better than one for a court of this nature, as cases of great difficulty and troublesome investigation were so likely to be brought before it, and therefore he thought judges with settled salaries, would answer much better than examiners with occasional allowances, as these allowances would be too apt to tempt such officers to an unnecessary prolongation of their inquiries. There was another provision which he would take the liberty of suggesting, namely, that in any case in which a judge might think it necessary, he should be empowered to have a jury called in to assist his inquiries. For in such cases of complicated fraud as were likely to come before this court, it was most desirable that a judge should be at liberty to appeal for aid to that noble institution of British jurisprudence, the concentrated judgment of a jury. The hon. gentleman concluded with observing that he could see no reason why persons confined for Crown debts should be exempted from the benevolent operation of this bill, or that any distinction should be drawn between the Crown and any other creditors of an imprisoned debtor. It ought, at least in his judgment, to be provided, that Crown prisoners should be allowed to appeal to the court of King's-bench, which court should be empowered to commute the claim, or to discharge any prisoner, where it saw due cause for clemency.
Mr. Littletonbore testimony to the excellent conduct of the noble mover, throughout the whole of the investigations and discussions which had taken place upon this question. That conduct was, indeed, the subject of praise in every circle where he heard the question alluded to. He therefore hoped the noble lord would follow his own views upon the mea-

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sure before the House, being convinced that this was the course most likely to meet the general approbation of the country.
Lord Althorpthanked the hon. gentleman for the compliment which he had thought proper to bestow upon his labours; but he begged it to be understood that whatever he had been enabled to do was owing to the assistance of the very intelligent committee with which he had had the honour to co-operate. He indeed went into that committee comparatively unacquainted with the subject, but he found himself enlightened in the progress of the inquiry, both as to principles and details, by the information and judgment of his able colleagues. He agreed entirely with the hon. member for Bristol, that Crown debtors ought not to be exempted from the operation of the proposed law. But when he mentioned his wish upon the subject in the committee, he found the attorney-general's objections were such that he was afraid of pressing the proposition in that House, lest he should hazard the fate of the bill. With regard to the hon. member's suggestion to authorise the appointment of a jury in certain cases, it was to be recollected that a jury could not be impanelled without expense, and that the petitioners to the Insolvent Debtors' court were generally mere paupers, who had not the means of defraying any expense. Again, it might be apprehended, that if a judge of this court were allowed to call in the aid of a jury, he might feel too much disposed to throw the responsibility, in certain cases, from his own shoulders. Besides, it was to be remembered, that the court alluded to was appointed not so much to, try matters of fact as to decide upon cases or equity. On these grounds he found the objections to the impanelling of a jury in this court so very strong, that he could not persuade himself to make the proposition, notwithstanding his reverence for that noble institution the trial by jury. The appointment of three judges he had been induced to propose from a variety of reasons which to his mind were quite satisfactory, and among others from the experience of the commissioners in bankrupt cases, which cases were so very analogous to those usually brought under the consideration of the Insolvent Debtors' court. When, indeed, the advantages likely to result from the proposed appointments were taken into consideration, be could not
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suppose that the amount of the salaries annexed to those appointments, or any expense of that nature could at all weigh with the House against the attainment of such advantages.
The bill was then read a second time.

MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF THE WOOL TAX.
Lord Milton,on rising to submit the motion of which he had given notice, said he felt the difficulty as well as the importance of the duty he had undertaken, from the particular relation in which he stood to the petitioners, and from the great interest which a large body of his constituents had at stake. He might, however, say, with truth, that he was not swayed by the opinion of his constituents, for, whatever had been their sentiments, he should have entertained the same opinions that he now held. Those opinions were not new or speculative, but were founded on principles that appeared to be as immutable as truth itself. It had invariably been our policy to import the raw material of our manufactures at as cheap a price as possible; for he would not admit, that in particular instances, such as in the importation of cotton wool or raw silk, a contrary principle had been acted on: and if, as in the case of cotton a different policy had been pursued, it was only where the particular article of trade could bear an increase of price. It was during the last session, that that principle had, for the first time, with respect to the importation of wool, been departed from; and here he would observe, that there was considerable difficulty in dealing with the question, on account of the different appearances which it assumed; it was a sort of Proteus that changed its face as arguments were addressed to it. He did not mean to say that it had been so stated in that House; but he had seen many persons to whom it had been represented as a measure intended for very different and very opposite purposes; for to some it had been represented as a duty imposed merely for the purpose of assisting the revenue, and to others as a protection to the agriculturists. Now, it was impossible that it could be viewed in both these lights. As a measure of revenue it must necessarily be ineffectual, because at the time this duty was laid on, a greater revenue was derived from the importation of wool than had since been produced. Those who supported the tax might say, that it had not yet had time to be productive;

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but still the returns showed that the importation had been so much reduced that the revenue lost considerably. It appeared from the Custom-house returns on the table, that during the eight months previous to the operation of this tax, 11,000,000 lbs. had been imported at the old duty, and, that, during the next four months only 230,000 lbs. had been imported at the new duty: and this document clearly proved that the importer of the raw material was unable to support the duty imposed. He knew it would be said, that this reduction was owing to the great quantity of wool in the country before the tax was imposed; and those who used this argument, would refer to the great importations made in 1818. He was aware that in that year twenty-four or twenty-five millions of pounds of wool had been brought into the country; but that was, at a period when the expectations of the importer were encouraged by the manufacturer, and when there was likely to be a great demand for the raw material. Now, however, instead of an increase of the manufacture, there was a great diminution in every part of the kingdom, and consequently no encouragement to the importer. But it did so happen, that there was only one part of the kingdom, the West Riding of Yorkshire, where the state of the woollen manufacture could be accurately known; and the account of the quantity of cloth milled in that district, proved this at least, that the state of the manufacture was such that it was madness on the part of the legislature to attempt increasing the revenue by such a duty as this. By this account it appeared, that during the last year only, 7,000,000 yards of cloth had been milled; and, on comparing this quantity with that of former years, he was obliged to go so far back as to the year 1794, before he could find so small a quantity. When the increased population of the country must have increased the demand at home for these articles, he nevertheless found, that the present demand was less than it had been in any of the last twenty-five years. That could not be merely owing to the distressed state of this country, but must be ascribed, in a great measure, to the falling off of our foreign trade. On the subject of foreign trade he might entertain opinions which some persons would, perhaps, consider singular: his opinion was diametrically opposed to that of those who contended that the more you export and the less you
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import the richer you must be. It was not his intention to enter into that question at present; but he thought that we could not deal with other parts of the world but on terms of reciprocal advantage, and that we could not export our manufactures to other countries without importing their commodities in the same proportion. The documents of the Custom-house could not show whether the country was in a prosperous, or in an adverse situation; and too much stress he apprehended was laid on them both by ministers and others. They could not overcome the evidence of people's senses, which was the best proof of prosperity or adversity. In a country like this, when the great and opulent were not satisfied with even all the luxuries of the world, there must be an import trade, and in return for these commodities there must be other articles exported. If we imported sugar from the West Indies, and tea from the East Indies, we must export our manufactures in return. It would not do to export raw produce. Let the House look at Poland, the greatest exporter of grain. Would they wish this country to be reduced to the exporting poverty of Poland? In the same manner in the exportation of timber from Prussia and North America, they had additional proofs of the poverty which the exporting of raw materials always indicated. If they traced the progress of states, they would find that a retrogradation of prosperity had always led back from manufacturing to agricultural and pastoral labours. This country had. an immense load of debt, whether incurred justly or not he would not inquire; and with that debt it could not afford to be poor. If we wished to bear it, as honest men should bear their debts, we must go on increasing; in wealth. The increase of wealth was nothing but the increase of the productions of the earth; and, as it was the industry and labour of man that called these productions forth, the greater the industry that was bestowed on them, the more valuable they became. Now, he would ask, if it could be the interest of this country, to check the importation of those raw materials on which, by the ingenuity and industry of man, so great an additional value might be conferred? He believed the value of wool imported into this country was doubled by being manufactured into cloth—[cries, "More, more"]; indeed, on recollection, he believed it was

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in some cases quadrupled, and even quintupled. Thus, the finest wool imported cost 6s., and the finest manufactured cloth exported from this country was sold for 35 s. He did not mean to say that in this case the value of the wool was multiplied by 5, because there were other articles employed in the process of manufacturing the cloth; but, the instance he had given showed at least that in the manufactured state its value was more than doubled. In the account of the examination which took place last winter before the privy-council, he found it stated by one of the persons examined, that in the American market our cloth manufactures had an advantage of 7½ per cent over those of French and Flemish manufacture; that was, when French and Flemish cloth was sold at 100, English cloth of the same quality could be sold at 92 or 93. Now, if to this price the new duty were added, it would make English cloth rise to 97 or 98; and this, he thought, was running a race with France and Flanders, and incurring a risk of losing the American market, which, on every principle of policy and prudence, ought to be avoided. By this course we were running the risk of losing America, with whom, of all countries in the world, it was most important that we should maintain connexion. Franklin had told America, and told her truly, that she ought not to think of manufactures for a century to come; and yet we were driving a rising country, and an increasing population, either to manufacture for themselves, or to purchase their goods from the manufacturers of the continent. But it was not in America only that we should find ourselves pressed by the continental manufactures; that opposition would meet us in every quarter of the world. England had enjoyed a monopoly of commerce during the war; but it was not to be supposed that she could rest upon her oars, and enjoy the same monopoly during peace. The face of affairs was changed—changed, not as had been said by some gentlemen, by our transition from a state of war to a state of peace, but changed as regarded our sole command of that element, upon the bosom of which our commerce was carried on. Let not the landed gentlemen suppose—let them not hope—that they could ameliorate the condition of their tenants, by the simple expedient of a tax upon foreign wool. The wool produced in England did not amount to a fifteenth part of the general produce of
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the country; and it was ridiculous to suppose, that by increasing the value of a fifteenth of our produce, any material effect could be produced as to the whole: the very idea was as foolish as that which had occurred to several gentlemen whom he admired and esteemed; and which had tempted them to introduce a foreign breed of sheep into the country, with a view of raising, within ourselves that finer wool which we were now obliged to purchase from bur neighbours. To him it appeared that nature; up to a certain point, had indicated by her own acts the peculiar species of animals, as well as vegetables, properly adapted to particular climates; and that he who attempted to introduce into England the finer wools of Saxony or Spain, would be as much disappointed in the result of his endeavours, as the man who should carry to the torrid zone the long-fleeced sheep peculiar to England. He had not, his lordship continued, countenanced the signing of petitions upon the subject; he had found it impossible to prevent petitions from being drawn up; but he felt that he should have acted dishonestly towards the suffering classes, if he had even held out an idea that the abolition of this tax would restore to them a trade which had been lost to them by causes entirely unconnected with it. All he intended—all he had said—was, that when a manufacture was of itself declining, that measure was impolitic which should cause it to decline still farther. It was impossible to look at the situation of the manufacturers in the county which he represented, without feelings of the most agonizing description. In the name of prudence, as well as in the name of common feeling, he called upon the House to repeal a duty which distressed the manufacturer without assisting the agriculturist; and which, so far from increasing or aiding the revenue, went to destroy those sources from which the revenue ought to be derived. The noble lord then moved, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to repeal the Tax on Foreign Wool."
Mr. Wilsonseconded the motion, and said, that it was necessary that a great manufacturing country should depend upon its exports, to enable it to indulge in the luxuries which were obtained from foreign countries. It appeared to be the general feeling of the House, that a more liberal system of commercial policy should be pursued, and in that feeling he was happy to find that the president of the

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board of trade participated. If taxes were levied upon articles which were not taxed before the war, they would operate as a premium or bonus to foreign manufactures. The tax would press most severely upon the coarser manufactures; and it was quite clear that in articles of this description, such as the Yorkshire cloths, which fetched from 2s. 6d. to 3s. 6d. a yard, no degree of ingenuity would enable the manufacturer to compete with foreigners, when he had to pay an additional duty of 6d. a lb., from which the foreign manufacturer was wholly exempt. With respect to the increase of value, upon which the noble lord had made some observations, it was to be recollected, that a considerable proportion of the raw material was brought from Smyrna and the Cape of Good Hope. When, therefore, the freightage to the ship-owner, the expenses of carriage, and other circumstances were taken into calculation, it could not be doubted that the original cost of the article was increased tenfold. As to the effect of the tax upon the interests of agriculturists, it was uniformly observed that the poor's rates pressed most heavily upon agriculturists, when the manufactures of the country were in a state of depression. It was the interest, therefore, of agriculturists to oppose a tax which was calculated to throw a number of manufacturers out of employment, and consequently to increase the burthen of the poor's rates. Ministers would do well to repeal the additional duty, which had added nothing to the revenue, and which, even if it had better answered their expectations, it would be a wiser course to give up, than, by retaining it, to create distress and increase the burthen of the poor's rates.
Mr. Westernthought that the hon. member who spoke last had taken rather too much for granted. If he believed that the tax would prevent the manufacturer from going freely into foreign markets, he should concur with that hon. member in his disapprobation of it. It should not be forgotten, however, that one of the first effects of this duty had been to induce Spain to take off part of her export duty. It was a curious circumstance, that during a period of the most extensive exportation of coarse woollen manufactures, not more than half the quantity of foreign wool had found its way into this country, which came into it at present. In the year 1790, not more than 3,000,000 lbs. of wool had been imported.
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The annual importation during the last five or six years had been 17,000,000 lbs. Was it not probable, that in proportion to the ease with which foreign wool was obtained, the growth of our native wool would be discouraged? It had been said by the noble lord that this could not at once be a measure of revenue, and protection. It might answer both those purposes. It might prevent the inundation of foreign wool, without amounting absolutely to a prohibition. It had been said, and with truth, that within the last four months, little or no wool had been imported; but it should not be forgotten, that heavy importations took place just before that time, with a view to avoid the payment of the additional duty; and besides, the importation of the preceding year had amounted to 26,000,000 of pounds. The noble lord had adverted to the introduction of the growth of fine wool in this country. His conduct, however, upon that point should not be governed by the advice of the noble lord; but it would be materially influenced by the advice of that noble lord's constituents. Those persons, it was evident, differed in opinion from the noble lord, for they thought and declared that the introduction of that wool was likely essentially to benefit the country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he continued in the same sentiments which he had expressed in the course of the last session, and agreed with the hon. gentleman, that whatever might be the ultimate effect of the measure, no sufficient experiment had yet been made to warrant the proposed alteration. If it was improper, generally speaking, to apply a tax to the raw material, it was a principle no less sound, that by the effect of taxation our natural produce should be supported. The noble lord had adverted in his speech to general principles, as regarded the present question, and if the ordinary rules of political economy could be dispensed with in one case they might be dispensed with in another. That noble lord had stated, that the present measure was sometimes called a measure of protection, and sometimes a measure of revenue; and he had declared, that whatever might be said in its defence upon the one ground, must necessarily operate against it upon the other. Now, he saw no such inconsistency. The article would be a fair article for the support of the revenue; if it could

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be proved that the consumption was not so far diminished by the tax, but that to a considerable extent it would still remain. The measure would operate as a protection to our native wool, if, while it admitted sufficient foreign material for the purposes of manufacture, it prevented such an influx of low priced foreign wools, as would destroy the production of the raw material at home. He knew no fitter article for taxation than one of which the consumption was gradually, constantly, and continually increasing. Such ah article was foreign wool. It would be found, that in the year 1791–2 the quantity annually imported amounted to about 2,800,000 lbs. This was before the commencement of the late war. It was not until the year 1814 that the importation amounted to 6,000,000 lbs. and in the year 1818 it arose to 26,000,000 lbs. It would be found that the increase of our exportation of manufactured goods had by no means kept pace with our importation of the raw material; during that period, in which our importations had increased, in the proportion of nearly five to one, our exports had only risen two-sixths upon their former amount. It would be evident, therefore, that a great quantity of the imported wool must have been thrown for a considerable time upon the market. The woollen trade, as regarded the raw material, might be divided into three classes; the finer wools, which were imported from Saxony and Spain, some of which were now produced at home, and some from the British colonies, from New South Wales, and from the Cape of Good Hope. This species of wool formed two-thirds of the whole quantity imported, and upon this species of wool it was not supposed that the duty in question had any sensible effect. With respect to what had been said, as to his previous statement of the amount of revenue to be produced by this tax, the importation of fine wool alone would nearly cover that amount: 4,300,000 l. to arise from a duty of sixpence per pound, from which the old tax of one penny per pound being deducted, 250,000 l. would remain, was all that he had promised to parliament. Now, the average produce of the last year had amounted to 19,000,000 lbs.—say 16,000,000; and supposing one-fourth of it, on account of the low priced wool to be deducted, there would then remain 12,000,000 lbs which at once would give the 300,000 l. The second class to be considered was the
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long wool, which was the exclusive product of this country, and which he had heard afforded to us in our manufactures a peculiar advantage over all other nations. If this was true, little danger, he imagined could be apprehended from the tax in question. It was contended by some manufacturers, that there was a certain class of articles, articles of recent invention, which could not be made without a mixture of some portion of foreign coarse wool. At all events, that assertion deserved examination, for every branch of British industry deserved to be encouraged. The interests of the wool grower and bf the manufacturers were most intimately connected, and if the wool grower was ruined by free importation, the manufacturer would be deprived of his best and safest reliance. The exportation of woollen manufactures had not fallen off more than the cotton, the hardware, and not so much as many other articles. The distress which had been quoted as existing in Sheffield was a sufficient proof that distress was not produced by the operation of the wool-tax alone. Much of the present distress, in fact, the greater part, might be attributed to a want of exportation to America. It would be found upon examination, that the circulation of bank paper in that country was reduced from 110,000,000 to 45,000,000 of dollars. He did not mean to attribute the whole embarrassment of the American trade to that cause, but that cause had doubtless operated to a very considerable extent. America, however, would recover rapidly, and the inconveniences which we were experiencing from a want of exportation to that country would at the same moment be removed. It was not in England only that a depression of the woollen trade had taken place. The manufacturers of France had quite as much cause for complaint as the manufacturers of this country. In France, however, no new wool-tax had been imposed and therefore their distress, at least, must be referable to other causes. The right hon. gentleman concluded by declaring, that he should oppose the present motion. He was not of opinion that the tax had been fairly tried, but as far as it had been tried, it certainly had not failed.
Mr. Stuart Wortleyfelt that both his noble friend and himself, as representatives of the county in which this great manufacture was principally carried on, would be listened to with some suspicion

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by the House. No power, however, should induce him, and he was sure that no power would induce his noble friend, to advocate any cause which he did not conscientiously believe to be a just one. He would advert, in the first place, to the time when the tax in question was originally imposed, in order to separate any distress which that tax might have produced from the distress which had existed before that tax was in being. He did not mean to say, that any very great degree of distress had been produced by the, operation of that tax, but he could not think that no ill effect was to be attributed to it; because, if he was to believe that which was stated by the merchants, and by the manufacturers of the country, he must believe that it had prevented those persons from speculating upon the orders, which, at this period of the year, they usually expected to receive, and, as a natural consequence, had gone to deprive the labouring classes of employ. That the situation of the country was pitiable beyond the conception of that House, he of his own knowledge could assert. The change in the appearance of the West Riding of Yorkshire, and the change of appearance in the great market of Leeds, within the last two years, was incredible. Two years ago, the people of the West Riding, were some of the best-looking, best dressed, and most cheerful in the country; and when he went back to canvass the county upon a late occasion, the difference in the appearance of the people, the change in their countenances, the change in their clothes, and the general alteration in the aspect of the town, had impressed him with feelings which would not be easily erased from his mind. The chancellor of the exchequer had laid much stress upon the circumstance of the Spanish export-tax having been taken off as soon as the present import-tax was imposed, as if it were merely taking so much money out of the exchequer of Spain, and putting so much money into the exchequer of England. The manufacturers complained, "this tax drives us out of the foreign markets," and the right hon. gentleman answered, "the Spanish export tax is taken off." It was taken off certainly, but it was not taken off as regarded this country alone, but as regarded all other countries, and if there was only a probability that the manufacturers were right, he, notwithstanding the attachment which he professed to the government, and the
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support which he had been accustomed to afford it, would say, that the present tax was as cruel a blow as ever was inflicted by any government upon a suffering people. No doubt, fine wool might be produced in the country, and no doubt we had lately produced finer wool than we had formerly been accustomed to produce, but we never could produce that quality of wool which was imported from Spain, and which was in dispensable to the manufacture of the finer cloths. If the tax had only been imposed upon fine wool, it was possible that fine wool might bear it, because that wool must come to this country to work up, the English wool. As to the coarse wool, there was a great quantity of cloth necessary for the foreign markets, which required a quality of wool not grown in this country to be mixed with the long wool; and if we were shut out from obtaining that coarse wool, we could not manufacture such cloths. Then could there be a doubt that wool which was imported at the cost price of eightpence must be totally excluded, by a duty of sixpence? He would ask any farmer who had the happiness to possess land which would bear these long-woolled sheep, whether he could be so well paid by any other description of produce? Unless the long wool could not be consumed by the manufacturers of our own country, it would be folly to allow its exportation, because that wool would be worked up abroad with the foreign short wool which we were now seeking to exclude, and the consequence would be, that foreigners would beat us even in our own manufactures. It was the universal opinion of those persons whose means of existence depended upon the woollen manufacture, that the tax in question had been a deadly blow to it, and from that tax he trusted they would be released by the decision of the House.
Mr. Huskissonthought that the hon. gentleman who spoke last had mistaken the meaning of the chancellor of the exchequer as of the abolition of the Spanish export duty. It had merely been stated, that the tax being levied now in England, and not in Spain, went into the treasury of England, and not into the Spanish treasury. He believed it would scarcely be denied, that three-fourths of the foreign wool which was imported into this country was consumed by the population of this country; consequently, if the tax which had existed in Spain was now levied in England, that tax, as regarded the

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people of this country was no additional burthen. Three-fourths of the quantity imported was consumed in this manner; the remaining fourth was manufactured and exported. The question was, whether that was a wise tax which put 250,000 l. a-year into the Treasury, without levying any new burthen on the people? He should have liked to have asked the hon. gentleman what was the proportion of Spanish wool exported to other parts of the world as compared with England? He believed it would be found that France imported not less than 500,000 lbs., certainly not exceeding a million pounds, and that in fact more than 7–10ths of the Spanish wool exported came to this country alone. The question was narrowed to the consideration of the coarse wools only, the importation of which into this country first took place about four or five years ago, when our coarse wools were at most enormous prices. The hon. gentleman had stated that the admixture of these wools was necessary to make a certain description of woollen goods, that is, the whole consumption of British and foreign wool together being about 160 millions of pounds, of which about three millions of pounds were of foreign wool paying the tax, which was the enormous grievance complained of, and that was to occasion the total ruin of all our woollen manufactures. In the whole history of the system of protecting duties, as they were called, he challenged the noble lord and the hon. gentleman to show him a single instance like that of the wool-growers of this country: they were confined to the markets of England for the sale of their produce, and before the tax was laid on were without any protection from the competition of the foreign wool-grower. What would the West India merchant say, if foreign sugars were thus allowed to come in competition with the produce of our own islands? The tax, he thought was necessary as a protection to the growers of British wool, and it was but common justice to allow it them; for if a free export were permitted, he was satisfied much greater advantages would accrue to them than any which they could derive from the protective power of the tax. He wished, on the part of the wool-grower, nothing more than a fair competition with foreigners in all the markets of the world; but if he was confined to the market of this country only, then certain-
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ly they ought to protect him in that to which he was so limited. The noble lord said that this was the only instance of a tax on the raw material? Was not cotton a raw material? Was not timber taxed, and was not that a raw material of considerable importance to this country? The numerous packages in which goods were exported from hence were thus all taxed. The dying drugs and oil used in that very manufacture of woollens, were they not raw materials, and all taxed, but taxed with a reference to the wants of the country on the one hand, and with the least possible prejudice to the manufacturers on the other? The distress to which the noble lord had alluded had arisen from more general causes—causes pressing on every class of trade, agriculture, and manufactures. If he had inquired into the state of the cotton trade, he would in that have found the same diminution in demand, the same reduction of wages, in short, the same distress as complained of in the woollen trade. How, then, could the distress in that branch be attributed to the tax? The diminution was attributable to the diminished demand in America; for on a comparison of the exports of last year as compared with the exports of the preceding year to that country, it would appear that there had been a falling oft" in the cotton trade of more than one-half; in the hardware manufactures, full one-half; and the export of woollens, though considerably diminished, had, in fact, suffered the least diminution of any. Comparing the exports of woollens to all the world, after deducting the diminution of America, it would appear that there was very little falling off; indeed, less in that article than in any other: from which it was evident that that effect had not been produced by any of our internal regulations. The order which was said to have been received in this country from Russia, and which could not be executed at the price limited, might have had that price fixed so low, that notwithstanding cur reduced rate of labour it could not be executed; but was it executed any where else? He would answer that it was not; for in no other place could it be executed for want of British coarse wool, which was only to be had here. He had thought it his duty to inquire into the state of the woollen trade on the continent, and had found it, from the operation of the same causes, still more depressed and distressed than

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it was here. He thought there was no reason to expect that the tax would affect the export of any articles of which British wool was a component part, and that they were bound to give it a fair trial, not as regarded the revenue, which he conceived to be a secondary consideration, but for the protection of the wool-grower, whom the House would be bound, if they repealed the tax, not to leave in the situation he was before placed in; for he was confident the manufacturers themselves must think the monopoly of British wool was a boon to them, far more than adequate to any loss arising from the tax. If, therefore, it was not thought desirable by any party to open the trade for the export of British wool, it was essential that the British grower should be protected from the competition of the foreigner in the market to which he was limited.
Mr. Curwensaid, he thought the woollen manufactures, above all others, demanded the peculiar protection of the House, and that a more impolitic tax than the present had never been proposed; for at the same time that it failed to assist the agriculturist, for whose benefit it was said to be laid on, it operated a direct and considerable injury to the manufacturer. Whatever tended to decrease productive labour must be injurious, and this measure was of that description; for it discouraged the woollen trade, which employed a larger proportion of people than any other. He wished that every labouring hand in the country should be productively employed; as many as possible in agriculture, and the remainder in commerce and manufactures.
Mr. Philipssaid, he must give the noble lord's motion his support, because he was of opinion that the tax was calculated to prevent exportation, and by no means adapted to relieve the distresses of the manufacturing classes.
Mr. J. Smithsaid, that in the present state of the country, he should be unwilling to vote for the repeal of any tax, unless it pressed heavily upon the people, and was peculiarly injurious to their interests. The reason for this unwillingness was the alarm he felt from the present financial state of the country. Any measure tending to lessen the means of supporting the public credit should be viewed with some degree of alarm. He did not, however, feel disposed to continue the wool tax, as he considered it liable to great objections. The cloth manufacture
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was declining when government came forward to propose this duty. It was a branch of manufacture that required a large capital, and the consequence of the tax must have been to lessen that capital, at a time when the manufactures were in want of it. It was probable also, that the great extension of the cotton manufacture was injurious to that of cloth. It was not correct to say, that the tax produced 300,000 l. a-year.
Mr. Barrettopposed the motion. He did not see how this tax could have raised the price of wool, it being in operation only since October last.
The previous question being put, "That that question be put," the House divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 202: Majority against lord Milton's motion, 74.

BRITISH MUSEUM.
The House being in a committee of supply, Mr. Bankes moved, that 10,009 l. 16 s. 16 d. be granted to his majesty, to be applied towards the expenses to be incurred in the management of the British Museum for the year 1820.
Mr. Colbornesaid, that although the country had every reason to expect that a system of economy should, as much as possible, be adopted, still he would not, on an occasion of this kind, be too rigid in pursuing that system. He should be sorry that so important an establishment as the British Museum, which was indeed a national one, should be cramped for want of proper funds. He suggested the propriety of an easier and more general access to the library, which ought also to be put in better order than it was at present. Considerable public advantage had been derived from the readiness with which admission to the other parts of the Museum was allowed, and many individuals had greatly benefitted by it. He could not help regretting that the same liberality was not acted on with respect to other public buildings. He knew not why those who visited Westminster-abbey, St. Paul's, &c., should be obliged to pay for their admission.
Mr. Bankessaid, as the trustees of the Museum had some time since purchased a very large library, which cost a considerable sum, they were determined, oh this occasion, to ask for such an aid as would not bear too hard on the public funds. With respect to placing the books in a more eligible situation, he was afraid it would require a large sum, because the

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present building was not in a secure state. On a survey made by one of the most respectable architects in this country, it was declared to be in a state that did not promise durability. But, as to the situation in which the books were, the hon. member might go to the library, and call for any work he pleased, and he pledged himself that, within five minutes, the identical book would be brought to him. He was of opinion with the hon. member, that greater facilities should be given to the public in visiting their national buildings. With respect to the beautiful pile which was in the immediate vicinity of the House, he recollected the time when greater facilities were given to those visiting it than were afforded at present. Why it was so he could not tell. In France public buildings were open to every visitor; but there no person attempted to deface any of the objects shown to them: here, however, a sort of mischievous feeling, which induced individuals to deface works of art, was sometimes observable. With respect to the library, he did not think it was possible, with safety, to allow a greater degree of access to it than was now permitted. It contained many manuscripts and prints, which curious individuals might damage in the course of their examination. In the course of the last year 63,000 persons had visited the Museum, and during the present a great number of individuals had been admitted. That noble collection, (the Elgin marbles) which had been added to the rich stores of the Museum, had tended greatly to the encouragement of the fine arts.
Mr. W. Smiththought there never was an instance in which the trustees of any institution had more completely seconded the views of parliament than the trustees of the British Musuem had done. The improvements introduced by them, in the last 10 or 15 years, must strike every man who had visited the Museum before and since that time. He conceived it was discreditable to the country, that other public works were not equally open to inspection. Whosoever went to St. Paul's, at the present moment, must pay for admission, as if they visited an exhibition. The only point in which it differed from an exhibition was, that the public convenience was never once thought of by the persons who showed the place. They thought of nothing but the collection of a trifling tax from those who visited the
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building from a laudable curiosity or otherwise. There was not to be found in Europe any one building of the importance of St. Paul's, in such a state of filth, and presenting so much of every thing reprehensible as might be observed there. Little attention was paid to the cleanliness or even permanence of that fine structure; and to its beauty none whatever. All that was considered was, the paltry profit of some equally paltry individual.
Sir R. Wilsonobserved, that the doors of St. Paul's were almost constantly closed. In fact, it was neither ventilated by the air, nor visited by the rays of the sun.
The resolution was agreed to.

SUNDAY NEWSPAPERS.
Lord Kenyonpresented a petition from certain dealers in and venders of newspapers, against the circulation of Sunday papers. His lordship stated that it was in contemplation to bring forward a bill for the purpose of preventing the publication of newspapers en a Sunday, such publication not only being inimical to the interests of religion and morality, but doctrines of a dangerous or seditious nature being put forth in many of the Sunday newspapers.
Lord Hollanddeclared his intention, if any such bill was presented, of opposing it in every stage of its progress. He was utterly at a loss to conceive upon what ground it was that the principles maintained by some of the Sunday newspapers was put forward as a reason for preventing their circulation. Were not the Sunday papers as amenable to the laws as other journals, if they published any thing improper; and would it not, therefore, be an odious attack upon the liberty of the press to prevent their circulation?
Earl Grosvenorreferred to a motion which he had formerly brought forward upon this subject in the House of Commons, and which motion had for its object to prevent the circulation of Sunday newspapers. He stated that he still
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adhered to the opinion he then entertained, but he meant it without any reference whatever to the political principles which those papers advocated.
The Earl of Lauderdalethought it right the House should be aware that the object sought by this petition, of preventing persons being employed in newspapers on a Sunday, would not be answered by preventing the circulation of Sunday newspapers; it applied rather to Monday newspapers; all that was requisite for making up a Sunday newspaper being done on the Saturday, whilst a Monday newspaper necessarily required the employment of the persons connected with it on a Sunday.
Ordered to lie on the table.

FOREIGN TRADE OF THE COUNTRY.
The Marquis of Lansdownerose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to move for a committee to inquire into the means of improving and extending the foreign trade of the country. So much did he feel the importance and magnitude of the subject, that he apprehended no sense of duty, however great, would have been sufficient to induce him to undertake bringing it forward, had he not entertained a well-founded hope of experiencing every indulgence from the House. Under the circumstances, however, in which he thought it necessary to propose to their lordships the appointment of a committee, he did not suppose that it could be necessary for him to say much to justify himself for having assumed that task. He certainly felt most strongly the Weight of the undertaking, and would have been glad to have seen it in the hands of any noble lord more able to do justice to it. Undoubtedly such a question would have been brought forward with much more effect by the members of his majesty's government, from the superior information which they of course possessed; but that course having been declined, he felt it an imperative duty, however incompetent to the task, to call their lordships attention to the subject, interesting and important as it was at all times, but more especially so at the present moment, when the best interests of the country Were so materially involved in the result. Several years had now passed away since the pressure of public distress engaged the attention of every friend to humanity and the country. That the noble lords opposite omitted to propose any measure of

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relief, was not, therefore, sufficient to excuse their lordships from attempting to inquire into the state of the evil, and to look for a remedy. Those threatening clouds which some years ago began to darken the horizon had gradually increased, and now wore a more dense, awful, and ominous aspect than ever. It was then impossible that their lordships could be justified in longer, ^abstaining from investigating the causes of the distress under which the country suffered. He felt it incumbent on him, seeing that no other person felt disposed to take up the subject, to propose an inquiry into the state of the foreign trade of the country; at the same time, in proposing that limited inquiry, he was far from wishing to throw any impediment in the way of any noble lord who might be disposed to institute an investigation into any other branch of the public distress. Still less did he mean to check any inclination to inquire into the expense of public establishments, or to urge that economy which was so necessary to the welfare of the country. But the latter were among the daily duties of their lordships, while the proposition he had to make related to a subject which less frequently called for their immediate attention. He meant to confine the proposition he had to make to the appointment of a committee on the foreign trade of the country. He had chosen this course, because he was convinced that any more extensive inquiry would only open an arena, into which every chivalrous political economist would hasten to take his stand; into which every theory would be introduced, and where every opposing interest would find an opportunity of combat. In any committee of general inquiry, useful discussion would be impracticable, endless contests would arise, and inquiries would be pursued without leading to any result. But, in limiting the proposal of investigation to one single but important object, he begged it might not be concluded that he had it in view to protect or promote the interest of any particular body in the country in preference to others. He certainly had no such intention, but, on the contrary, had limited his proposition to a subject which he conceived intimately connected with the interest of the whole country. But whatever course their lordships might determine to pursue, whether that of a limited or a general inquiry, if ever they were to entertain a design so
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unjust as that of favouring one interest or one body of the state, at the expense of any other, such a project would be impossible. So inseparably connected were the interests of society, so powerfully did the laws which Providence had imposed on those interests operate—for in: regulating the wants they also regulated the actions of men—that any partiality of this kind was impracticable. Whenever it should be attempted to raise up a barrier for any particular interest, it would soon be found that its effect would bed destroyed by the operation of the general interests of the community. Such a proceeding could only tend to bring on the body whom it was wished to favour increased humiliation and distrust. The experience of the last ten years could not be thrown away on their lordships and he trusted it would not on the country. In the year 1815 they had seen the distress of the agricultural body visited on the other interests of the community. They had afterwards found the distress of the manufacturing interest visited on the growers of corn and the raisers of every kind of agricultural produce. From these alternate visitations who could fail to see that the orders of nature had linked together all the interests of men in society, and that it was nothing less than the height of folly and madness to attempt to prop up any one class at the expense of another? It would ultimately appear that any class of persons whom it was attempted exclusively to benefit would find the injury which was thus done to other classes recoil with so much force upon themselves, that they would become glad to give up their exclusive privileges in order to derive a greater advantage from admitting their fellow-citizens to participate in the benefits to which they had before exclusively laid claim. It was not, therefore, for the benefit of any one class of persons exclusively, that his motion pointed; but to discover the means of benefitting all by a wise and judicious direction of the resources of the country in the channels of commercial activity and enterprise. He had formerly given his opinion on the corn laws, and would not now go into an inquiry which he thought already disposed of—namely, whether the agricultural interest was sufficiently protected. He could not, however, help observing that in looking at the petitions on the tabled the opinion that his

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country ought to be rendered independent of foreign corn seemed to be adopted in some of them. The petitioners wished for prices which would give them the advantage they possessed in time or war, but they ought to consider that the effect of the continued operation of high prices must be to leave no country open for export. What then would be the result of sudden depression? If an extraordinarily abundant harvest produced low prices, the farmer would be ruined, and the manufacturer would participate in his distress. The lesson of experience on this subject would not be forgotten by their lordships. In considering a part they would look to the whole, and would not allow themselves to be seduced by views of partial interests from devoting their attention to the effect of any measure which might be proposed operative on the general psosperity of the whole country. There were some speculative persons, who thought that this country would be more prosperous were it independent of manufactures, and that it would be desirable to establish its interest solely on the basis of agriculture. Without entering into the discussion of the question of the advantage or disadvantage of manufactures, it was sufficient to recollect that this was a subject on which the country had no longer a choice. Commerce and manufactures had made the country what it was, and by them it must be maintained in the rank to which it had been raised. No axiom was more true than this—that it was by growing what the territory of a country could grow most cheaply, and by receiving from other countries what it could not produce except at too great an expense, that the greatest degree of happiness was to be communicated to the greatest extent of population. No man could anticipate the loss of foreign commerce without at the same time contemplating such a pressure on a large portion of the population of the country as must inevitably produce the most deplorable distress. Whatever speculative opinion therefore might be entertained upon this point, it was utterly impossible for us now to go back and say we would sacrifice out commerce and our manufactures to our agriculture; for were it possible to suppose that we could resort to the unspeakable inhumanity of sacrificing 2,009,000 of people out of 12,000,000 for the sake of such a theory, no human tongue could
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describe, nor could any human mind conceive the distress the privations, and the miseries that such a sacrifice would bring even upon the remaining 10,000,000.—Whatever inquiry therefore was instituted, whatever measure might be adopted, their lordships must proceed upon the principle of protecting all those interests which had made the country a great agricultural, commercial, and manufacturing, nation. No one interest could be separated from the rest; for all the various classes of the community depended on each other; and it might be said of each, as the poet had finely said of man in society—
"He, like the generous vine, supported lives;
"The strength he gains is from th' embrace he gives."
It was maintained, with regard to the commercial world, that the sooner trade rested on a level the better; but then, no small caution was required in order to arrive at this. Their lordships must not proceed rashly; the investigation into which he trusted they would enter required the greatest deliberation, for there were many difficulties to be overcome. He remembered to have heard an anecdote relative to a conversation between Dr. Adam Smith, and Mr. Burke, which was very applicable to the present subject. They happened to meet about the period when the judges had given a decision against forestalling, and Dr. Smith was expressing his indignation that the legislature had not immediately counteracted so baneful a decision by legalizing forestalling. Mr. Burke replied, "You, Dr. Smith, from your professor's chair, may send forth theories upon freedom of commerce as if you were lecturing upon pure mathematics; but legislators must proceed by slow degrees, impeded as they are in their course by the friction of interest and the friction of prejudice.' He knew their lordships would have much of prejudice to contend with in the course of their inquiry, and many interests to consider in connexion with the question of foreign commerce. He thought it therefore necessary to call their attention to the nature of the general distress which formed the ground for their investigation. Although he would not now enter into the discussion of the causes of that embarrassment and distress which extended more or less through every country in the globe. Suffice it to say, that either, as some contended, through the ambition of

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one individual, or as others said, through the errors of governments, or through a tide and current in the affairs of mankind, or perhaps with more probability, through a combination of parts of all these causes, long wars had been carried on, and, nations had expended a considerable, portion of their capital, instead of limiting their expenditure to their income. An artificial system had thus been established, and the consequence of this state of things was, that a numerous population had been called into existence by the great demand for labour. It was, however impossible that this expenditure could continue, but the population remained when the expenditure diminished; and this unemployed and Unproductive population, or in other words, the quantity of labour, beyond the demand for it, was the great cause of the existing distress. Those countries which, like Great Britain, from their financial system and their geographical situation, were enabled to expend most of their capital, and for a time to give encouragement to the greatest quantities of productive labour, had mortgaged, their revenues, and were in a situation to feel the general distress in a greater degree than poorer countries, which could not spend their capital. Such had been the effect produced by the great expenditure their lordships had witnessed. This he took to be the situation of the country, and it contained an answer to a question put to their lordships by the petitioners of Birmingham, why, when there was so much plenty in the land, so much distress was felt? The circumstances which he had mentioned must be kept in view when their lordships' attention was to be directed to find a remedy for the distress which he had described. The most obvious remedy was, to create a demand for our labour and our manufactures, and the most obvious mode of creating that demand was, to encourage and to extend for foreign trade by removing some of those restrictions by which it was shackled. In looking towards such a restrictions two things ought to be taken into consideration by their lordships: first necessity of raising a large revenue to meet the exigencies of the state, and secondly, the justice and expediency of consulting those interests Which were vested in our existing trade, on the faith of the continuance of the regulations under which it was now carried on. But although those considerations were not to be lost sight of—they
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ought not to prevent changes which higher interests and a wiser policy demanded. With the necessity of attending, to them, their lordships ought to recollect that the policy which they involved was a departure from that which was dictated by the soundest principles of political economy, and therefore ought to be limited to what the strict nature of the case required. They, ought, in short, to recollect that liberty of trade should be the rule, and restraint only the exception. On this principle he would arrange the different points which he meant to touch, and recommend the relaxations which it was his object to propose. The first point to which he should allude was not, perhaps, of any great practical importance—or one from the alteration of which any great expectation of relief could be fairly derived: it was the system of prohibition as it existed at present. Without entering into its operation on particular branches of trade, or specifying particular articles, he would venture to say that there ought to be no prohibitory duties, as such; for that it was evident that where a manufacture could not be carried on, or a production raised, but under the protection of a prohibitory duty, that manufacture or that produce could not be brought to market but at loss. In his opinion the name of strict prohibition might therefore in commerce be got rid of altogether, but he did not see the same objection to protecting duties, which, while they admitted of the introduction of commodities from abroad similar to those which we ourselves manufactured, placed them so much on a level as to allow a competition between them. The next point to which, he would advert was one of more practical and immediate importance, as it affected a principle on which the government of this country had long been carried any and in the observance of which it had, attained its present power, and greatness—he meant the principle of the navigation laws. The relaxation which he would propose in those laws was not of a nature, nor to an extent which ought to excite any jealousy in those who looked to them as one of the sources of our national security, nor indeed did he understand that the anticipation of it excited any alarm in the shipowners and other, whose interests were considered as so intimately connected with their with their strict maintenance. All the relaxation he would suggest would be to

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allow produce from all parts of Europe to be imported into this country without making it necessary that it should be so imported exclusively in English-built ships, or in ships belonging to the nation whence the produce came. At present a vessel which had taken part of its cargo in a French port and which afterwards had proceeded to a Flanders port for the remainder, could not enter a British port. All that he would propose would be to allow such a vessel to make good its assortment in different ports in Europe, and still to have the right of entering this country. He would make one exception to this relaxation of the navigation-laws—he would not allow the importation of colonial produce in this manner as that might deprive the shipping interest of this country of a very valuable portion of their trade. The third point to which he would advert was one of no inconsiderable importance in itself, and of still greater consequence from the principle which it involved—he meant an entire freedom of the transit trade. Such a change would tend to encourage the warehousing system, and would thus promote the desirable object of rendering our ports the dépôt of other foreign nations. Whatever brought the foreign merchant to this country, and made it a general mart—a dépôt for the merchandise of the world, which might be done consistently with the levying of a small duty, was valuable to our trade, and enriched the industrious population of our ports. Such freedom of transit allowed of the assortment in our ports of cargoes for foreign markets, and thus extended our trade in general. He was aware that the abolition of the transit duties was formerly opposed by those who wished to protect the linen trade of Ireland, and he willingly allowed that that trade deserved peculiar protection. A duty of 15 per cent, on the importation of foreign linens was, during the war, thought necessary to protect the linen manufactures of Ireland. No injury resulted from that arrangement while we engrossed the commerce of the world, while no vessel could sail without a British convoy, and while we could force out-own commodities into foreign markets in preference to others, for which there was a greater demand; but now the case was altered, and many, he understood that many even of those who were interested in the linen manufacture of Ireland had altered their former opinions on the sub-
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ject, and now thought a relaxation of the transit duty advisable. Indeed it could not be forgotten that this manufacture had flourished to as great an extent as ever before it was protected by any duty, but whatever was the policy of imposing that duty or continuing it during the war, the same reasons would not now justify its continuance. If We refused to admit German linen without the payment of a transit duty, the foreigner would rather go to Germany for the article; he would then either pay the duty which we imposed, or take a less valuable article as a substitute; and as linen might be a necessary article in the assortment of his cargo, this duty would drive him away altogether, even when desirous of obtaining other articles which our soil or industry could supply. He would readily admit that the linen manufacture of Ireland was entitled to every species of encouragement and protection; but he thought it was a subject upon which inquiry ought to take place, before that argument was permitted to operate against the general advantage. He now came to a fourth point, which involved important interests, and on which he was aware that a difference of opinion existed—he meant the state of the trade with the north of Europe, and the duties imposed on the importation of timber from that quarter. But first of all, before he touched on the policy of such duties, and the grounds on which their continuance, was defended, he must recall to the recollection of their lordships the circumstances in which they originated. These, high duties, then, were not imposed as, a part of our permanent colonial system nor were they imposed for the express advantage of the ship-owners, who now maintained that they had such an interest in their continuance. Neither, was any pledge given or hopes held out to the ship-owners at the time that the duties were imposed, that they were to be maintained for their benefit. On the contrary, they were told in distinct terms that the measure was expressly of a temporary nature, which must cease at no distance period; and that it must necessarily be brought under review in March next. The interests now vested in the timber-trade to our North American colonies grew, out of what was considered as a temporary arrangement, and had of course no security against a change which the general interests of the nation might require. It

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was easily to be conceived that the part of the shipping interest which was concerned in the importation of timber from Canada, did feel, and was justified in feeling, a strong reluctance to the removal of a tax, which, by allowing the country to obtain timber nearer home, would throw many vessels belonging to that respectable body out of employment. For that respectable body he wished to speak with becoming esteem and regard, and would say, that whatever predilection he might have for the general principle or freedom of trade, and in the employment of capital, he would admit that in some instances it might be necessary to depart from it, in order to favour the principle of navigation with British vessels; and therefore that he would not allow his partiality to lead him so far as to neglect the advantage and security which we derived from even an expensive navigation of British vessels. But it was one thing to agree to the justness of a principle properly restricted, and another to admit its unlimited operation; and nothing, it must be allowed, could be more detrimental to commerce than the imposing of a heavy duty on one of the most important raw materials that could be introduced into this country. And what was the reasoning of the ship-owners in their petition against an abolition of this duty? He should be sorry to misrepresent their arguments, and would therefore read the statement from their own petition, They represented that, from the length and difficulty of the voyage to North America, the larger part of the value of the timber, thence imported consisted of freight; that the American timber, being of an inferior quality to that from the Baltic required a protecting duty; and that the mere circumstance of the proximity of the northern ports of Europe, by enabling ships to repeat their voyages frequently in the course of a year, would reduce the number of British vessels employed in the timber-trade to one-third. What they said therefore was equivalent to this:—that whereas; it was expedient that they should be employed—and whereas they could not be so employed if they procured timber where it was cheapest and best—they there one should import it of the worst quality, and from the greatest distance. This was r the proposition the shipping interest propounded when the question was whether we should, import our timber from our own colonies or from
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the Baltic. And let their lordships consider what the article was that was thus to be raised in price, while it was deteriorated in quality. It was not an article of luxury, the price of which was of no importance. It was the raw material of our houses, of our bridges, of our canals, nay of our shipping itself. So inconsistent were the petitioners, that they asked parliament to continue duties which increased the expense of their own trade. A great part of the capital which they had vested in their business, and of the expense which they incurred was rendered necessary by the high price of the article which they thus wished to increase by heavy duties. But let the House observe to what consequences the principle laid down by the petitioners would go if carried to its extreme length, and applied to other branches of trade. Suppose it was stated by another class of persons that cotton was grown in the East Indies, that they were oar own colonies, and that the voyage was three times as long as to the West Indies, or to any other part of the world from which we might obtain it supply; he did not see on what, grounds those; could resist such a statement who argued that we ought to import our timber from Canada rather than from Norway. The voyage would have the: advantage of being thrice as long, and the article might be tripled in price. Their lordships would find it asserted in the petition from Newcastle, that if the shipowners had the whole of the carrying trade from the Baltic it would not be sufficient to employ one half of the shipping now engaged in the trade with Canada. This was another singular mode of reasoning. If a person were to make an offer to carry all the mails of this country, using twice the number of horses that were at present used, would that be considered as a recommendation of the new proposal? If their lordships did not lose sight of all principle, and allow that particular interests ought alone to be consulted, they must see that the general good would be better consulted! by the employment of our shipping in a general extension of our trade than in adding unnecessary expenses to one branch of it. The ship-owners could not certainly, in the event of an abolition of the duties, have employment for their vessels to the same extent; but as the imports from Russia and Prussia would increase, and as they would have nearly the whole of that trade the falling off

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might not be so great as they anticipated.—And with regard to the argument employed by them against renewing our intercourse with the north of Europe; namely, that those who supplied us with timber from that quarter would not receive British manufactures in return, it appeared to him futile and ungrounded. If they did not send direct for our: manufactures at home, they would send for them, to Leipsic and other fairs of Germany. Were not the Russian and Polish merchants purchasers there to a great amount? But he would never admit the principle, that a trade was not profitable, because we were obliged to carry it on with the precious metals, or that we ought to renounce it because our manufactures were not received by the foreign nation in return for its produce. Whatever we received must be paid for in the produce of our land and labour, directly or circuitously; and he was glad to have the noble earl's marked concurrence in this principle, We had had been long in the habit of sending out the precious metals to the East Indies; but we purchased the gold and silver thus exported with our manufactures sent to America. But the petitioners overlooked two points—the increase of the trade itself by the importation of cheaper and better materials, and the increase of the shipping consequent upon that. They had overlooked the fact, that if the raw material was better and cheaper, the shipping itself would be improved and, in all probability, more employed in the North of Europe. The whole subject would, however, be investigated by the committee, who would consider how much of the duty might be taken off the timber from the North, and what regulations might be adopted to reserve to Canada the supply of masts, for which its timber was peculiarly fitted. It deserved serious consideration how much more we paid for the timber from Canada than we should pay for that from the North of Europe. If the accounts he had received of the expense of importing from Canda were Correct, there was an increase of 30 per cent on the article, as, compared with the Baltic trade, accruing from the charges of freight and the original purchase. The additional sum imposed on this country by the duty, according to the average of imports, amounted to no less than 500,000 l.; and on the port of London alone, in the course of the
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last three years, to 100,000 l. He would now advert to another subject of great importance—the state of our trade with France, and particularly, in the article of wine. Their lordships must know that a duty of 143 l. 18 s. was imposed upon the tun of French, wine, while only 95 l. was imposed upon Spanish and Portuguese wines. There had been a falling off in the duty in the; last year of 220,000 l. Some specific arrangement might, he thought, he made with the French government upon this subject, to the advantage of our own manufactures. Whatever objection the French government might have to the adoption of a general commercial-treaty with this country, it could not be so indifferent to the interests of its subjects, as to refuse us an equivalent fop admitting their wines: on the same terms with those of Spain and Portugal. But even if no such arrangement could be obtained, even though the French government were not disposed at first to enter into any. specific treaty, the people would find their advantage in the intercourse; and although we might be obliged, in the first place, to pay in bullion, our manufactures would go abroad to other countries, to purchase that bullion. For a long course of time we had been exporting bullion to the East Indies, and we exported manufactures to America for the purpose of procuring it. He would repeat his conviction, that the French government could not be so indifferent to the interests of its subjects, as to refuse entering into a reciprocal arrangement upon this point, but even if it did, France, and not England, would become the sufferer. The consent of Portugal to any beneficial arrangement of this kind with France would not necessarily be required, as if we did not enforce our claim to send Portugal our woolens, they had no right to demand of us to take their wines. This, however, might be settled by a short negotiation. What he had said with regard; to the wines of France would apply likewise to its silks. He was aware that there was a poor and industrious body of manufacturers, whose interests must suffer by such an arrangement, and therefore he felt that it would be the duty of parliament to provide for the present generation by a large parliamentary grant. It was conformable, with every sound principle of justice to do so, when the interests of a particular class were sacrificed to the good of the whole.

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He had now gone through all the points of our trade with respect to Europe, and had imparted his views of the changes which he thought ought to be adopted. He now came to a subject which, with whatever difficulties it might be surrounded, had at least this advantage, that the adoption of the measure which he should recommend must materially relieve and benefit the shipping interest. It would be impossible for their lordships not to recollect, that from one of the largest, most fertile, and most populous portions of the globe, that immense space which lay between Africa and America, the general British merchant was excluded. From the time that he doubled Cape Horn, or the Cape of Good Hope, he found his commercial operations cramped, and his enterprise restrained; not by the nature of the country, for it was rich and adapted to commerce; not by the barbarism of the inhabitants, and their indisposition to trade, for they were numerous, industrious, possessing in a considerable degree the arts and inclinations of civilized life, and desirous to exchange their productions for ours; not by the difficulties of the seas, for by the trade-winds and the monsoons, navigation was rendered easy and secure to the commercial adventurer, but he was pursued, and all his schemes defeated, by the Statute book. It was this that restrained him from trading from one part to another without a licence. It was this which forbade him from trading in a vessel of a size the most convenient for his purpose. It was this which prevented him from dealing in one of the most valuable and lucrative articles of trade, viz.—tea. No one would suspect him of an inclination to speak disrespectfully of that great corporate body, the East-India Company; but he would say, that it traded under all the disadvantages to the country of a monopoly. He was convinced, from the interest which that body must feel in the national welfare, that they would not refuse to allow others to enjoy what they themselves were unable to enjoy; and this was all that he wanted to ground his proposition upon. The limitation under which the trade to the East Indies was carried on, prevented the employment of any vessel under five hundred tons in those latitudes; the effect of which was to prohibit such vessels as were best adapted to explore those extensive and promising regions from undertaking what they were best calculated to perform. If the private
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trade in the Indian seas were perfectly unrestricted, much smaller vessels might be employed; and many merchants would engage in it who could not fit out a ship of 500 tons burthen. There existed many nations perfectly accessible to smaller vessels, who were now never visited. They composed a population of upwards of 70,000,000; and it was impossible to calculate the benefit that might arise from allowing the experiment to be made as to what their wants consisted in, and how far they might be disposed to supply themselves from this country. So important indeed was the consideration of that subject, that he should beg leave to refer to their lordships a book of considerable research, the work of Mr. Cranford, which described the climate of those islanders to be salubrious, the soil fertile, the geographical situation favourable to commerce, abounding with ports and harbours capable of the most effective navigation, and yet lamented, and justly, that they were so little known. But not only was it the case with respect to those islands; the name might be said concerning the islands in the Indian Archipelago, which, according to that efficient officer, sir Stamford Raffles, were extremely civilised, though they did not present the same offer for commercial enterprise; still, however, it was the interest of this country to encourage a trade with them. He was well aware that all such trades must have slow and small beginnings; but he was also aware that it was in encouraging those slow and and small beginnings that the legislature of a country was best employed. He recollected a story, which, though it was not very dignified in itself deserved some notice from their lordships, since it had been put upon record by Dr. Franklin, as a complete illustration of the doctrine which he was then advancing. Dr. Franklin related that his wife, conceiving herself to be under obligation to a shipowner at Maytown, made a practice for some years of sending a cap annually to his daughter as a present. After this practice had lasted for some time, the Doctor stated that he accidentally met this ship-owner, in company with a farmer of the same town, in Philadelphia. The ship owner said to him, "A dear cap that was, friend," which you sent to us at Maytown. "How so?" replied the Doctor. "Why, since you sent it us, none of our young women will go out

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without one." The farmer who was the better political economist of the two, hereupon interrupted the ship-owner, and told him that he was only telling one side of the story; for he ought to have added, that it was only since those caps had been sent to May town that their young women had been accustomed to send mittens to Philadelphia, it being by the sale of their mittens that they were able to procure, the Philadelphia caps. This story he confessed was a trifle in itself; but it was upon trifles like these which acted on the minds of bold and enterprising men with a power which was more easily conceived than described, that the foundation of all those trades were laid, which the merchants of this country had carried, on with so much industry and success, and which he trusted that they would carry on with still greater industry and success when they were allowed to embark in them free from, those restrictions by which they had hitherto been shackled. Indeed when he considered the effects which had followed the opening of a free trade in the only quarter where it had yet been permitted, he could not for a moment doubt of the benefit which the commercial interests of the country would receive from the removal of those restrictions under which they had hitherto laboured. Their lordships would recollect, that six years ago, when the trade to the East Indies was not open, there was no independent British tonnage on the other side of the Cape of Good Hope. When the trade was opened, it was said by some, that it would be injurious to the British shipping; but how did the fact turn out: it appeared that the amount of the tonnage of vessels employed in the company's trade was twenty thousand tons, while that employed in the free trade amounted to sixty-one thousand, and who could say that it might not still increase? Was there any one among their lordships, seeing, as they all had seen, the rapid strides with which British commerce had advanced in that quarter of the globe, bold enough to say that the advantages of a free trade might not be carried still further even there, and might not be rendered productive of even still more important results? But, whilst upon this subject, there was another point which he wished to press upon the notice of their lordships, and which was this—that the free trade employed 4,720 British seamen, whilst the trade of the East India, company employed only 2,550.
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This fact particularly deserved their attention, because it displayed the benefits of a free trade, even in quarters where benefits were least of all to be expected. Whenever a free trade to other countries nearer home had been proposed, their lordships and the. country had been told that the opening of such trade would be highly inexpedient, because it would throw out of employment a certain number of British seamen; but, now that the trade was opened to the East Indies, it was proved that it not only did not throw any of them out of employment, but actually opened a field for the employment of an additional number of them. It-was true that in the vessels employed in the free trade there were only 7 men to every 100 tons, whereas, in the East India service, there were 20 men to the same quantity of tonnage; but did that circumstance prove any thing against a free trade, connected as they ought to connect it, with the fact, that the number of seamen engaged in that free trade was greater than the number engaged by the East India Company? It appeared to him to be a peculiar hardship upon our merchants that in countries where the British had established an unprecedented power, and where they exercised an uncontrolled dominion, an American should be at liberty to carry on a trade in which it was not allowed to an Englishman to engage. The trade to which he alluded, was that of tea, which he understood was more than eighty to one in favour of the American merchant; nor was this at all surprising, for he not only derived a benefit from the liberty which he possessed of assorting his cargo when1 and where he pleased, but also from the liberty which he enjoyed of supplying France, Holland, and other parts of the continent with that commodity, tea, which the East India Company did not choose to do themselves, and would not allow any of their fellow-countrymen to do for them. The consequence of this extraordinary state of things had been, that while the British trade at Canton had been stationary during the last thirteen years, the American trade had made most rapid increase, and indeed, during the last three years, had increased to a full third of its former value. He would next proceed to show to their lordships another point in which our commercial regulations gave an advantage to the American merchant trading in the eastern seas, which was not enjoyed by

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our own. Both must go to South America for bullion; and, for the sake of argument, he would suppose that Valparaiso was the port to which both went. The English merchant, after taking in his bullion, was obliged to return to England, and then could not set sail for India until he had refitted his ship. The American merchant, on the contrary, sailed directly from Valparaiso to his place of destination, disposed of one cargo, and took in another, almost before the English merchant was able to set sail a second time from England. Indeed, he had been informed, in the course of that morning, that at the present moment, certain Americans were fitting up vessels in the Thames in order to undertake a beneficial venture, which no Englishman could hazard with safety under the present regulations. Was it right that such a circumstance should be allowed to occur in this, which had been justly denominated the most commercial country in the world? Was it either right or expedient that that country should extend to Americans the privileges of a trade from which she excluded her own inhabitants, who were equally well, if not better calculated to carry it on, from their habits, their industry, and their spirit of enterprise? So fully was he convinced of the inexpediency of such a restriction, that nothing could induce him to believe that the East India company would not, if applied to, allow Englishmen to supply France, and Holland, and Germany, with tea from Canton as readily as it allowed the American merchant to do so. He looked upon this as the most beneficial of all the topics which he had yet urged, and it was the last of the commercial considerations which he had to suggest. He should next proceed, unwilling as he was to touch upon any political question, on an occasion when he had no wish to excite any political feeling, to say a few words upon certain subjects, which, though they were connected with the politics, were not less connected with the commerce, of the country. He was not prepared to say that the British government ought to exert its influence to procure the immediate independence of South America—by no means: but he was prepared to say that, considering the manner in which the trade of its subjects had increased at Buenos Ayres, where it was liable to no restriction, during the years 1810, 1811, and 1812—considering that since the latter of these periods it had
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even increased there to a twofold amount, and that similar results had taken place in every other part of that great continent, where British manufactures had been introduced, it was bound by every tie of feeling and of interest to cement the connexion which already subsisted between the inhabitants of the two countries, by the utmost good faith, kindness, and liberality. To cement that connexion would not be a difficult task for this country, as there was none better calculated to inspire the South Americans with sentiments of respect and affection. First, it was a maritime country, able to give them support and assistance whenever they should stand in need of it; secondly, if it repealed the restrictions with which it had guarded its commerce up to the present day, it would stand before them as a country ready to receive their produce on the most favourable terms, and seeking nothing else, in its relation with them than the happiness and prosperity of both parties. And why should they not repeal these restrictions? Their lordships, he was sure, were well aware that, in the year previous to the commencement of the unfortunate war which terminated in the establishment of American independence, our exports to the United States did not amount to more than 3,000,000 l.; whereas at present they amounted to no less a sum than 30,000,000 l. Was this great and amazing increase the result of restrictive laws and provisions? Certainly not; it was the result of the increased prosperity and population of those states, and of their becoming, in consequence of it, great consumers of our produce and manufactures. If such had been the case with North America, did not that very circumstance render it still more the interest of the British government to consolidate its friendship with those countries which were desirous of securing its friendship, which, under the odious government from which Spain had recently emancipated itself, had never been opened to us, and which, even under the government which had just succeeded to it, were not likely to be much more accessible? He must also strongly recommend to their lordships, the expediency of using conciliatory measures towards Ireland. If ever there was a people calculated to give employment to capital, and to become great consumers of manufactured goods, it was the people of Ireland. Every exertion made to conciliate them would be repaid a thousand times,

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and would be productive of great advantage, as there were no countries which, by their relative situation, were better calculated to produce beneficial results to our commercial interests than Ireland and South America. He was not sanguine enough to suppose, that either he or any man could propose an immediate remedy for the existing distress;—but, though he was not very sanguine in his expectations of immediate relief to the present distress of the country, he could not, with the feelings which he entertained regarding British enterprise, British skill, and British ingenuity, abandon the hope of ultimate relief, whilst there was any part of the globe unexplored, or only partially explored, to which our trade could penetrate. Our merchants, if they were now oppressed with the difficulties which he had before described, were not, however, deprived of that high character, that good faith, and that persevering industry, which had always distinguished them. In whatever part of the world they appeared they still maintained their ancient pre-eminence, and thus acquired, wherever they went, a preference over those of other nations. These were his grounds of hope; and on these he looked forward with confidence to the arrival of more favourable times, lie had now stated the object of his motion; all that he asked of their lordships was, to consult the genius of their country for that support which was so necessary to renew and invigorate its resources, and to apply to those principles for the preservation of their commerce to which they were indebted for its original prosperity. If their lordships granted a committee, he would go into it with no other spirit than that of doing cautiously what could be done to protect our best interests, and of making an effort to assist the commerce of Great Britain, at a period in which it was exposed to so much embarrassment and adversity. He could assure them, that he had not willingly brought the subject forward, but that it had forced itself through him upon the House, owing to the reluctance exhibited by his majesty's ministers to entertain it. The noble marquis concluded with moving, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Means of extending and securing the Foreign Trade of the Country."
The Earl of Liverpool*rose and said:
*From the original edition, printed for Hatchard and Son, Piccadilly.
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—My lords; I rise to address your lordships with peculiar satisfaction, after the very able and candid speech of the noble marquis who has just sat down;—a speech which I may say I have heard with the greatest pleasure. Agreeing as I do in the general principles which have been laid down by the noble marquis, and in. most of the points to which he has applied those principles, I feel no inclination to oppose the motion, although I certainly do not admit, in an equal degree with the noble marquis, the importance of some of the measures which he has recommended to your lordships' consideration.
The noble marquis has, in my opinion, very properly limited his motion to the consideration of our foreign trade, and of the best means of improving and extending it. It is only by such a limitation of our inquiry that it can be conducted with any prospect of an advantageous result. For, if the proposition were to embrace the wide range of the various interests of the country—agricultural, manufacturing, and commercial,—those interests would be brought into a conflict that must lead to interminable discussion; and, either nothing would be done, or whatever it might be proposed to do, would be postponed to an indefinite period.
At the same time it is impossible for me to consider the question with reference to our foreign trade only. It is impossible for me to take a view of the state of the country, with reference to our foreign trade, without also considering our internal trade. It is impossible for me to advert to the impracticability of doing many things, under the present circumstances of the country, which it might be very desirable to do, under other circumstances, without considering what is our domestic situation at this time. In entering on the present discussion, this observation appears to me to be very material—not with respect to the proposed inquiry, for that I have already declared appears to me to be very properly limited, but with a view to a thorough comprehension of the whole subject,—that we should consider why, although we acknowledge that there are other circumstances in our general situation which demand our serious attention, we should not extend that inquiry beyond the bounds of the noble marquis's motion. This is due in justice to myself, and to those with whom I have the honour to act. The interests connected with our foreign trade are highly important, but I

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should be deceiving your lordships and the country, were I to say that they are, the most important interests to the nation. When I look at the petitions which are pouring in upon us, not only from the merchants and ship-owners, but from the agriculturists and manufacturers throughout the kingdom, I feel bound to state the reasons, not only why I am not in favour of a more extensive inquiry than that proposed by the noble marquis, but why, in the official situation which I have the honour to hold, I did not myself propose such an inquiry.
Undoubtedly, if I were of opinion that a more general inquiry would be beneficial, I should have thought it my duty to recommend it to your lordships. I entirely agree with the noble marquis, that there can be no mistake so prejudicial, or so calculated to lead to unfortunate results, as to suppose, that the great interests of the country, the agricultural, the manufacturing, and the commercial interests, can ever justly be set at variance with each other.—I entirely agree with the noble marquis, that any attempt to legislate in favour of one of those interests, to the exclusion of the others, would be most destructive to the whole.—I entirely agree with the noble marquis, that they must stand or fall together; that the strength of the one will prove the strength of the others, and that the distress of the one will occasion the distress of the others. I cannot, therefore, but regret, that in any of the petitions which have been laid on your lordships table, there should appear a disposition to separate the interests of the one from the interests of the others, and to represent them as at variance, and as capable of being separately benefited. The more the subject is sifted and examined, the more I am convinced it will be found—that, as, on the one hand, the agriculture of the country is the basis of its power and wealth; so, on the other hand, agriculture would not be what it now is,—the fortunes of those who have profited by it, would not be what they now are, had not agriculture been fostered by manufactures and commerce, and received the most important advantages from the spirit and industry of those engaged in manufacturing and commercial pursuits.
This therefore is the proposition with which I must set out;—that all the great interests of the country are intimately and inseparably connected; and that
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while on the one hand, what is for the benefit of the one, must be beneficial to the rest; on the other hand, any attempt exclusively to favour the one, must be prejudicial to all With this general view of the subject, I feel that the principal points to which I ought to address myself, are, to endeavour to ascertain what is the actual situation of the country with regard to its internal as well as with regard to its foreign concerns; to endeavour to ascertain, from authentic documents, what is the condition of the various great interests to which I have already alluded; to probe the causes of the distress to which those interests are at present subject; and, lastly, to examine whether any, and, if any, what legislative measures can be adopted to relieve them.
There is one consideration, however, which I confess appears to me to be of the utmost importance at this time. With every disposition to do complete justice to the noble marquis's object, and agreeing in most of his positions, it nevertheless appears to me to be as essential that your lordships should decide what you will not do as that you should decide what you will do; for it is utterly impossible that the country can settle into the tranquil state so desirable, while men's minds are afloat, and kept in a state of perpetual ferment and uncertainty with respect to the line of proceeding that parliament may adopt. The sooner therefore that this is determined, the sooner will the various interests in society harmonize, the sooner will business be restored to its proper level, and the pursuits of industry assume an aspect of ascertained, if not of contented exertion.
The first point then to which I wish to draw your lordships attention is, the state of our internal commerce. It is material to consider whether the distressed state of that commerce has grown out of any diminution in our internal consumption, or has arisen from circumstances connected with our foreign trade. I trust, that I shall very shortly be able to satisfy the House, that there is no ground for believing that any part of the distress which pervades our internal commerce, has arisen from a reduction in the use of any of the great articles of consumption. I know but of one of those articles, the consumption of which has been materially reduced,—I mean that of wine.
I have taken some pains to ascertain the actual and comparative state of our

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home consumption; and in doing so, I have thought it better to look at the amount in quantity, rather than in value; the value being liable, from taxation and other causes, to fluctuate; while the quantity is a surer criterion, for determining the increase or the decrease of consumption.
I hold in my hand an account of the home consumption, during the last four years, of the principal articles, on which the duties of last year were imposed; which, if it be your lordships pleasure, I will lay on the table, or submit to a committee, should a committee be appointed.—The fair way of considering the subject is, to compare the average consumption or the three years, ending the 5th Aprils 1817, 1818 and 1819, with the actual consumption of the year ending the 5th April, 1820.—If we look at the article of tea (which, next to bread, is the article of most general use amongst all classes of the nation (we shall find that the average consumption of the years ending the 5th of April, 1817, 1818, and 1819, was 21,650,870 lbs., and that the consumption from the 5th of April, 1819, to the 5th of April, 1820, was 22,332,117 lbs., being some increase. In the article of coffee, the average consumption of the three years was 7,523,583 lbs., and the consumption of the last year, 7,358,856 lbs., being a small diminution. In the article of tobacco, the average consumption of the three years was 11,967,711 lbs., and the consumption of the last year, 11,175;917 lbs., being, I must admit, no inconsiderable diminution. In the article of malt, the average consumption of the three years, was 22,130,278 bushels, and the consumption of the last year 23,971,387 bushels, being an increase of above 1,800.000 bushels. In the article of spirits, the average consumption of the three years, was 5,173,755 gallons, and the consumption of the last year was 4,801,937 gallons, being a diminution of about 361,000 gallons. But then it is necessary to add, that during the last year the consumption of foreign spirits has been considerably greater than it was during the three preceding years, it is proper that I should observe to your lordships, that the whole of these accounts have reference to the consumption of Great Britain only.
In this view of the comparative consumption of the different periods which I have described, there can be no fallacy.
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It has been taken on the quantity of the articles consumed, as a more fair criterion than their official value; it has been taken with the view of comparing the actual consumption of the last year with the average consumption of the three years immediately preceding; and the result of that comparison is, that, during the last year there has not only been no diminution, but, on the contrary, some increase in the home consumption. The same may be said with regard to other articles respecting which it has not been practicable to obtain a return of the quantity consumed, but only of the amount of the duties. Upon those articles on which there has been no increase of taxation, and which are consumed by all classes of the community, such as candles, paper, hides, skins, soap, salt, bricks and tiles, &c. the result is the same as with respect to the articles which I before specified. In some, there has been a trifling decrease; in others, there has been an increase; but, on the whole, they confirm the general position, that in the internal consumption of the country there has been no diminution. This fact, as far as it goes, is a subject for unqualified satisfaction; since it shows that in our main resource, that in what depends on ourselves, there has been no falling off: whatever local distress may therefore exist in the country, this is a sure proof that our general wealth has not declined; for if such decline or defalcation had taken place to any extent, it must have been accompanied by a decrease in the use of the great articles of our domestic consumption.
Having considered the internal commerce of the country, I come now to the consideration of our foreign trade, and particularly of the exportation of British produce and manufactures. And here, I lament to say, a great falling off appears to have taken place in the last, as compared with the preceding year. The declared value of British and Irish produce and manufactures exported in the year 1818, amounted to 48,903,760 l., the declared value of British and Irish produce and manufactures exported in the year 1819, amounted only to 37,939,506 l.; being a diminution to the considerable amount of about eleven millions. But then it ought to be recollected, that the year 1818 was one of extraordinary exportation; and that great and over-strained efforts were made in that year in various

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branches of our industry and commerce, It will therefore be a fairer proceeding, if: we form our estimate of the diminution of; our foreign trade, by comparing the average exports of the three years, 1816, 1817, and 1818, with the actual exports of last year. It appears that the average exports of the years 1816, 1817, and 1818, amounted to 45,161,756 l.; thus exhibiting a deficiency in the exports of last year, as compared with the average exports of the three preceding years, of about 7,220,000 l. This is undoubtedly a great falling off:—and the question which naturally suggests itself is,—What are the branches in which this falling off has principally taken place? But before I proceed to that part of the subject, it is material that your lordships should consider what was the extent of our foreign trade, antecedently to the late war, and also during those years of the war in which it was most flourishing.
In stating these returns, I must refer to the official value of the exports, not to the declared value as in the returns I have just quoted; because the returns, according to the declared value, were not made up during the earlier part of this period. Prior to the French war, the foreign trade of this country was in its most flourishing condition, in the year 1792. The official value of all our exports in that year was 24,905,200 l.; of which sum the British manufactures and produce amounted to 18,336,000 l. In the years 1806, 1807, 1808, 1809, 1810, and 1811, which were the years of the war in which our foreign commerce was in its most flourishing state, the official value of our exports of British produce and manufactures, was—in the year ending the 5th of January, 1806, 25,000,000 l. (I will, to save your lordships' time, state the sums in round numbers); in 1807, 27,000,000 l.;—in 1808,25,190,000 l.;—in 1809,26,000,000 l.;—in 1810, 35,000,000 l.; and in 1811, 34,900,000 l. Those, as I have already observed, were the years of the war during which our foreign commerce was in the greatest activity. The official value of the exports, in the year ending the 5th January, 1820, was 35,625,673 l. This, however, I only mention by way of showing that the diminution has not been below that which was formerly considered as a condition of the greatest prosperity;—admitting as I must that our foreign commerce has, during the last Year, suffered a very material diminution, when
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compared with the years immediately preceding.
The first question for our consideration is—In what branch of our foreign trade has this diminution principally taken place? It does not appear that there has been much diminution in our European trade. As compared with the average of the three preceding years, the diminution in our exports to the continent of Europe, during the last year, does not exceed 1,200,000 l. Of this diminution, more than a half has occurred in the article of refined sugars; a trade which may be in a great measure considered as lost to us; as, since the opening of the West India colonies belonging to other states, and of the Brazils, in consequence of the restoration of peace, the continental countries have of course become less dependent upon this country for this article of consumption. The falling off in the export of British produce and manufactures to the continent, does not therefore exceed 600,000 l. With respect to Ireland, I am happy to say that our trade with that country is increasing. One great branch of the diminution which our foreign commerce has experienced within the last year (and which was touched upon by the noble marquis in the course of his observations), is to be traced to the state of the East India market. For two or three preceding years, our trade with the East Indies had been pushed to an enormous extent;—to an extent which it was impossible that any rational man could expect would be permanent. The other, and the chief cause of the diminution, is the decrease of our trade with the United States of America. If your lordships compare the exports to the United States of America, during' the last year, with the exports during the preceding year, you will find that in all the great articles of our industry and commerce, the diminution has been a full half. In 1818, the exportation of cotton goods to the United States of America, amounted to 2,432,301 l.—in 1819,it amounted only tol,109,138 l.; being a falling off of 1,323,163 l. The exports of glass, earthenware, hardware, and cutlery, which, in the year 1818, were 971,285 l., were reduced in the year 1819 to 546,741 l. The amount of woollen goods exported to the United Slates of America in 1818, was 3,160,106 l.; in 1819, it dwindled down to 1,703,024 l. In short, in all the great and leading branches of our manufactures, there was

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a falling off in our exports to the United States of America of a full half in the I amount, as compared with the last year; and of above 3,500,000 l., as compared with the average of our exports during the last three years. I allow that there has been some diminution in our exports to the last Indies; but it is to the state of the American market that the great diminution which has occurred in the export of our produce and manufactures is principally, if not exclusive, attributable.
This leads me to the consideration of the cause of this diminution, and of the present condition of the United States of America. The noble marquis, in laying his grounds for the motion which he has submitted to your lordships, made several observations on the present state of trade in this county, the truth of which I am by no means disposed to deny. I am as ready as any man to acknowledge that certain branches of our trade are in a depressed state. The noble marquis also truly says, that distress is not confined to this country; but that it afflicts every country in Europe, and has even extended itself to America. The noble marquis also truly says, that this general distress is to be ascribed to the extraordinary I convulsions in Europe during the last twenty years; convulsions which unhinged all the natural relations between nation and nation, and even between man and man; convulsions which have produced the most extensive effects both on nations and individuals. Unquestionably, it was impossible but that the instability of property, the creation of fictitious capital, and all the other evils which arose during those convulsions, should operate in the production of great distress in every country, long after the re-establishment of peace should have caused the convulsions themselves to cease.—But the peculiar circumstance of the times—that to which I wish particularly to direct the attention of your lordships and of the whole kingdom is this,—that, great as the distress is in every country in Europe, (and certainly it prevails more or less in every country in Europe), it is, nevertheless, at the present moment greater in the United States of America than it is in any country in Europe. I desire any of your lordships, or any other individuals who may be disposed to ascribe the distress under which we at present labour, to our debt, to excessive taxation, to tithes,
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to the poor-rates, or to any cause of that nature, to look at the United States of America; and I think that they will then pause before they ascribe the distress which we, or any of the other countries of Europe are now suffering, exclusively or principally, to any or all the causes which I have mentioned.
My lords, there is no mystery in this. I have, on a former occasion, made some general observations on the subject. There is no mystery in the cause of the existing distress in the United States of America. That distress cannot proceed from any war in which the United States have been engaged; for, during the last thirty-five years, America has been at war only during two years. Nevertheless, she has felt the effect of the wars, which during the greatest part of that period have raged in every other quarter of the globe. But how has she felt it? During the whole of the late war, America was the principal neutral power. During a part of that war she was the only neutral power. She enjoyed the most extensive carrying trade. She supplied this country, and she supplied other countries with many articles, which, neither this country, nor other countries could at the time obtain elsewhere. What was the natural consequence? That America increased in wealth, in commerce, in arts, in population, in strength, more rapidly than any nation ever before increased, in the history of the world. In twenty years, the United States of America made a greater progress than the same nation, in the ordinary and natural course of affairs, could have accomplished in forty years. But now all the world is at peace. Every country, at leisure to attend to its own condition, is diligently cultivating its domestic arts and industry. The state of America, my lords, at this moment is not so much the effect of present positive distress, as of extraordinary past prosperity. She must retrograde to a certain point. It is the result of former advantages which America exclusively enjoyed, which she must now reimburse (if I may use the expression) until she has returned to that which is her natural condition. I am far from saying this invidiously.—On former occasions I have sufficiently shown my conviction, that there is no country more interested than England is, that the distress of America should cease, and that she should be enabled to continue that rapid progress which has been for a time

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interrupted; for, of all the powers on the face of the earth, America is the one whose increasing population and immense territory furnish the best prospect of a ready market for British produce and manufactures. Every man, therefore, who wishes prosperity to England, must wish prosperity to America. I have stated these facts, in order that the House may see the truth, and the whole truth on this important subject;—that it may not ascribe our distress to causes which it is not principally attributable; that it may be aware that we are only enduring a fate common to all; to that nation which has been at peace as well as to those nations which have been at war; to that country which has enjoyed the benefits of neutral traffic, as well as to those countries which have been deprived of it; to the United States of America, as well as to the various states of Europe. I have stated these facts to show, that the distress which has fallen, not upon one or two countries, but upon the whole world, is the result of those political convulsions, which it is not now the question, whether or not human policy and wisdom might have prevented; but the effects of which, it is the question, how far human policy and wisdom may mitigate? I have stated these facts to show, that I do not see any thing in our internal situation, up to the present hour, which exhibits a decrease in our domestic commerce and resources. I have stated these facts to show, that there is no ground to believe, that there has been any material diminution in our European trade; and that, if there has been any diminution in our Asiatic trade, it is the result of over-speculation, an evil which will naturally cure itself. I have stated these facts to show the nature of the distress at present existing, and that it can be remedied by time alone. If, my lords, we were to adopt any rash measure, for the purpose of satisfying a temporary clamour, the only effect of such a proceeding would be, to continue, if not to perpetuate the evil. In a question of this nature nothing can be more dangerous than to listen to the remonstrances and solicitations of parties likely to be affected by the measures they disapprove, or recommend. If the people of the world are poor, no legislative interposition can make them do that which they would do if they were rich. If the general pressure is so great that our manufacturers are limited in their sale, our manufacturers must wait
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with patience until the supply and the demand adjust themselves to each other. Above all, my lords, we must not attempt by artificial means to remedy distress, which such means are always calculated to aggravate and extend.
Having completed what I wished to say respecting the general state of the country, I come to that which is the more immediate subject of your lordships' consideration—a practical view of our situation with respect to foreign commerce. The noble marquis very properly grounded his motion on the general principle—(a general principle, which, however, he was too much of a statesman not to qualify)—of the great advantage resulting from unrestricted freedom of trade. Of the soundness of that general principle, I can entertain no doubt I can entertain no doubt of what would have been the great advantages to the civilized world, if the system of unrestricted trade had been acted upon by every nation, from the earliest period of its commercial intercourse with its neighbors. If to those advantages there could I have been any exceptions, I am persuaded that they would have been but few; and I am also persuaded, that the cases to which they would have referred, would not have been in themselves connected with the trade and commerce of England. But, my lords, we are now in a situation in which—I will not say, that a reference to the principle of unrestricted trade can be of no use, because such a reference may correct erroneous reasoning—but in which it is impossible for us, or for any country in the world, but the United States of America, to act unreservedly on that principle. The commercial regulations of the European world have been long established, and cannot suddenly be departed from.
And here I must be allowed to remark, that the only point in the noble marquis's speech in which he did not seem to me to bring the whole subject before your lordships, was, his abstaining from saying any thing of the state of our laws respecting agriculture, as those laws are connected with the very important subject of our foreign trade. If we look to the general principle of freedom of trade, let us at the same time look to the state of our laws as they regard agricultural produce. Let us look to our absolute prohibition of the importation of a great part of foreign agricultural produce, and our heavy

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restrictions on the remainder. Let us look to our corn laws; to our laws respecting the importation of cattle; to our laws regarding the exportation and importation of wool; in short, to all the laws for the protection of our own agricultural interest. Under the operation of these laws we cannot go to foreign countries on the principle of reciprocal advantage. I We will not receive their corn, or their cattle. With the exception of wine, and some other articles, we will not take what they most wish to give us. With what propriety may not those countries say to us,—"if you talk So big of the advantages of free commerce; if you value so highly the doctrines of your Adam Smith, shew your sincerity and your justice by the establishment of a reciprocal intercourse. Admit our agricultural produce, and we will admit your manufactures."—Your lordships know that it would be impossible to accede to such a proposition. We have risen to our present greatness under a different system. Some suppose that we have risen in consequence of that system. Others, of whom I am one, believe that we have risen in spite of that system. But whichever of these hypotheses be true, certain it is that we have risen under a very different system than that of free and unrestricted trade. It is utterly impossible, with our debt and taxation, even if they were but half then-existing amount, that we can suddenly adopt the system of free trade. To do so would be unhinge the whole property of the country; to make a change in the value of every man's possessions, and in none more so than in those of the agriculturist—the very basis of our opulence and power.
This brings me to a question which, though not immediately connected with the subject of the noble marquis's motion, has so great a. bearing upon it, that I should not discharge my duty on this occasion without adverting to it;—I mean the question of the corn laws. I was one of those who, in the year 1815, advocated the Corn bill. In common with all the supporters of that measure, I believed that it was expedient to grant an additional protection to the agriculturist. I thought that, after the peculiar situation of this country, during a war of twenty years, enjoying a monopoly in some branches of trade, although excluded from others; after the unlimited extent to which speculation in agriculture had been
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for many years carried, and considering the low comparative price of agricultural produce in most of the countries of Europe; the landed property of the country would be subjected to very considerable inconvenience and distress, if some further legislative protection were not afforded to it. I thought the Corn bill was advisable, with a view of preventing that convulsion in landed property, which a change from such a war to such a peace, might otherwise produce. On that ground, I supported the corn-bill. During the discussion of that question, I recollect that several persons were desirous of instituting a long previous inquiry; and that others, still more erroneously, wished to wait for two or three years, to see how things would turn out, before they meddled with the subject. At that time I told those who maintained the latter opinion, that it appeared to me to be a most mistaken one. What I recommended was—to pass the Corn bill (and thus to give a further, and under the circumstances I thought, a proper protection to agriculture); but I delivered it as my opinion, that if it was not passed then, it ought not to be passed at all; and upon this ground, which, whether it be wise or not, is at least intelligible—that I could conceive a case in which it might be expedient to give a further protection to the agriculturist, but that I was persuaded that the worst course which it was possible for the legislature to adopt, was, to hang the question up in doubt and uncertainty; that the consequence of not legislating at all, would be, I that rents would fall,—that a compromise would take place between the owners and occupiers of land,—that the landlord and the tenant would make a new bargain,—and that if, after all the distress incident to' such changes had passed away, a new Corn hill should be agreed to, it would be most unequal and unjust in its operation. I contended that parliament owed it to the interests of all—to the interests of the landlord,—to the interests of the tenant,—to the interests of the whole community—whether it decided, to legislate on the subject or not, at least to decide;—to adopt a steady course; to attend to all the circumstances of that eventful period^ and then to adhere with undeviating determination to whatever line of conduct its sense of public duty might prescribe.—Such would have been my feeling had the Corn bill been lost. In that case I would never again have promoted it

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Much more is it my feeling under existing circumstances, the corn-bill having been adopted. Whatever may be the distress under which agriculture labours, I am convinced that there are no such certain means of aggravating that distress as perpetually to tamper with it by the adoption of new measures and new laws. Whatever may be the system adopted, let it be adhered to. Let the farmer and the tenant, let the buyer and the seller, know that it will be adhered to; and they will soon come to some arrangement for their mutual advantage.
Having said so much on the general principle, I wish to say a few words on some of the particular propositions which have been made on this subject. The principle of protection of our corn laws has been considered by some of the petitioners to parliament as too refined; and it has been proposed to get rid of the existing system altogether, by the substitution of a fixed duty on the importation of foreign corn. A proposition such as this, is as absurd as it is unjust. The present system of our corn laws is, as I understand it, founded in theory at least on the just and equitable principle of, on the one hand, affording protection to the agriculturist (and through him to the rest of the community) against so extreme a low price as that at which it may be supposed he cannot be capable, with any profit, of raising the commodity; but, on the other hand, of allowing the consumer to resort to the foreign market, whenever the price of coin shall exceed a certain prescribed sum. But let your lordships consider for a moment what would be the effect in a country subject to occasional scarcity like this, if the existing system of protection were abolished, and a fixed duty, such as I have described, were substituted. If the price of corn were very low, that duty would afford no adequate protection to the agriculturist. If, on the contrary, the price of corn should be very high, your lordships will immediately perceive how injuriously a fixed duty would operate on the subsistence of the people. Should corn, for instance, rise to the price of a hundred and twenty, or a hundred and thirty shillings a quarter, at which price the quartern loaf would be at two shillings or half a crown, the poor man, under such circumstances, would be called upon to pay an addition in the shape of duty, to the amount of twenty, or forty, shillings a quarter! No man can
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rationally contemplate the adoption of such a proposition. It would be of no use to the farmer in times of plenty; and in times of scarcity it could have no effect; for what government would venture to enforce it upon the people? The minister, whoever he might be, would be forced to come down to parliament to propose to repeal it.
My lords, I have looked most anxiously to the manner in which the Corn bill has worked. Not, I confess, that (for the reasons I have already stated) it would have made any difference in my present opinion on the subject, if it had not worked as it has done. The importing price—the price to which wheat must rise in this country, before it is permitted to introduce foreign wheal—was fixed by the Corn bill at eighty shillings a quarter. I remember that during the progress of that bill in parliament, there was a good deal of discussion on the probable effect of fixing the importing price at that sum. Several of those who opposed the measure, declared that eighty shillings would, in consequence, be always the minimum; and that wheat would never be sold under that price in this country. We, on the contrary, who supported the measure, maintained that it would be much nearer the maximum. And what has been the result? That on the average of the five years which have elapsed, since the passing of the Corn bill, the price of wheat has been about seventy-eight shillings a quarter. It appears from the returns, that the average price of wheat from the 5th of January, 1815, to the 5th of January, 1820, has been seventy-eight shillings and five-pence a quarter; the average price of barley (the importing price of which was fixed at forty shillings) forty-two shillings and five-pence a quarter; and the average price of oats, twenty-eight shillings and four-pence a quarter. Even on this statement, I have a right to ask, whether there is any ground for contending that the Corn bill has not operated fairly for the agriculturists, and with the effect that was anticipated by its supporters? Undoubtedly, there have been high years, and there have been Tow years, in the course of the period to which I have alluded; but the average is what we must look to; and it is upon a price rather below that average, and certainly not above it, that every provident cultivator of the soil will make his calculation, in determining the rent and value of land,

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with reference to the growth of corn. But it is important, also, with a view to estimate the true operation of the Corn laws, to examine what has been their effect with regard to the importation of foreign corn for home consumption. From the account of the last five years, it appears that the quantity of foreign wheat and wheat flower imported has been 3,483,675 quarters. Of this quantity there are, at this moment, 324,546 quarters actually warehoused. Again, we must deduct 770,437 quarters, which have been re-exported; which leaves 2,388,692 quarters, as the amount of foreign corn that, during the period which I have described, has been really consumed in this country. Is it possible that the average of this quantity, amounting to 477,738 quarters, thrown annually into consumption, can have produced any distressing effect on the interests of agriculture? It is contended by some persons, that fraud exists in the taking of the averages. If this be so—which I by no means admit —it may be, and ought to be corrected. There is a power to correct it by the existing laws. If the parties who are interested in the subject, will only employ proper inspectors, taking care that they are properly remunerated, they have in their own hands the means of reforming this abuse, if it really exists. If the existing laws in this respect should be found insufficient, you may then come to parliament for new powers for this limited object. But I must decidedly object to any alteration in the principle of taking the averages. This subject was much considered in the year 1815, when it underwent ample discussion; arid the benefit of adhering to the system then established of taking the averages, ought not to be sacrificed on light grounds. The importing price of eighty shillings a quarter, was fixed in 1815, with reference to the existing mode of taking the averages; and I am persuaded that it would not be easy to devise a better mode. The former protecting price was sixty-six shillings, ascertained in the same mode. When, therefore, eighty shillings became the protecting price, it was a protection to be ascertained by the same criterion as the former price of sixty-six shillings; and I am convinced that great confusion would ensue, if the mode of taking the average, with the operation and effect of which parliament, at the time they so fixed the importing price at eighty shillings, were
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well acquainted, were now to be altered. I strongly recommend, therefore, that there should be no change in the principle of taking the average; but that, if any fraud exists in the administration of that mode, it should be corrected, as it may be corrected, by the existing laws, or even by new laws, if those that exist are not sufficient for the purpose. Some persons have objected to the introduction of the Welsh counties into the averages; but I am sure that their exclusion would be as often unfavourable, as beneficial to the English grower. On the whole, my lords, I am thoroughly persuaded that there are the strongest reasons why we should do nothing on the subject of the Corn laws, and that it is for the advantage even of the agricultural interest itself, that nothing should be done. My lords, I have dwelt long upon this topic, because it is one which has a bearing upon every other now under our consideration; and because it is of great moment, that the opinion of parliament upon it should be decided. But there is another subject of equal importance, upon which I feel it necessary to make a few remarks—I mean the state of our currency. I most strongly deprecate any alteration by parliament in the state of our currency, as it was last settled by the legislature. It is, I know, said by some that the effect of that arrangement has been injurious; and that it has considerably aggravated the public distress. With great respect for the individuals who entertain that notion, I must say, that I am I of a different opinion.—In the first place, I if any inference is drawn, to the discredit of that arrangement, or for the purpose of showing, that prices in general have declined in consequence of it, from the present price of corn, I will refer to the fact, that in the year 1815, the price of corn was lower than it is at present, while that of gold was 4l. 4s. the ounce, instead of 3l. 17 s. 10½d. But, if the state; of our currency has affected one branch ' of our agricultural produce, it ought to have affected all branches of it; and yet I we find that the price of cattle, during the last year, was as high as at most former I periods, and as could be desired by the land-owner. I do not believe, therefore, I that the arrangements, with respect to our currency, have had the effect which some persons have imputed to them. But even if I believed that those arrangements had really had an effect so injurious, I would say, as I said on the last subject to which

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I called your lordships attention,—"You have done the tiling. The evil has been endured. You cannot retread your steps without incurring much greater dangers than those from which you wish to escape."—I will go further.—No man was a greater supporter of the restrictions on cash payments by the Bank of England, during the war, than myself. I supported the continuance of that measure, because I was persuaded that we could never have got through the arduous contest in which, we were engaged,—that we could never have made the mighty struggle, which we did make, without it. But, ray lords, I always considered, that the expediency of that measure was limited to the duration of the war, and its immediate consequences; and that on the restoration of peace, we ought, as soon as practicable, to return to the ancient system of metallic currency, or paper convertible on demand into coin. I acknowledge that I saw great difficulties in the way of that return; but it always appeared to me, that they were difficulties which a few years of peace would enable us to overcome. The facilities which the restriction gave us, were, unquestionably, accompanied by many evils. During the war, it was expedient to endure the evils, in consideration of the good; but in a time of peace they possess no such compensation. What, indeed, can the restriction in time of peace produce, but the creation and extension I of fictitious capital, and of an appearance of prosperous trade, without the reality; evils which, having already so deeply affected us, ought not to be permitted to recur? My lords, I am sanguine enough to believe that this country has in a great measure got over its difficulties:—1 am sanguine enough to believe, that the general distress will speedily be mitigated:—I am sanguine enough to believe, that our export trade will soon revive; and that our looms, and our spinning-jennies, and every other description of our machinery, will shortly be greatly employed. But that which I know alarms many men—and, men of great practical experience on these matters,—is, that we may be subject to the danger of a periodical; revulsion of the same nature every three or four years; and I am persuaded, that any recurrence to a system by which fictitious capitals might be again created and extended, must be attended with the most injurious consequences. The powers of machinery would Be again over-strained
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—the markets would be again glutted, and all those violent fluctuations, which have already produced so much misery, would again be experienced. I am, therefore, unequivocally of opinion, that, as on the question of the corn laws, there ought to be no alteration of our policy; so neither ought there to be any alteration of our policy on the subject of our currency. It seems tome to. be of the utmost, importance, that the public and the world should understand; that our own people, and that foreign nations, and foreign merchants, should understand, that we are acting on a fixed system, in order that they may know that to which they have to look, and that they may not entertain any apprehension, that we may be induced to tamper with our existing arrangements, for the purpose of meeting any occasional evil, or of pacifying the clamour of any particular class of the community.
I now come to the consideration of subjects more immediately connected with the noble marquis's motion. I have already stated what are the difficulties that stand in the way of adopting the general principles laid down in the petitions which have been presented to your lordships by the merchants of this country, of whom, however, it is but justice to say, that I do not imagine they have any notion that those principles can be acted upon to their full extent.—Although many of those individuals disapproved of the Corn bill at the time that it was proposed, yet, now that it has passed into a law, and that it has been so long in operation, I know that they do not think that it would be just or expedient to make any alteration in that system, for the sake of extending our trade. This is an admission which ought to be maturely weighed by the agriculturists. If those, who are most interested in the freedom and extension of commerce, are satisfied that the protection which agriculture receives, should remain as it is, surely the agriculturist ought not to desire any increase of that protection. But it is not to the corn laws alone that our system of protection has been confined. Protecting duties have been likewise imposed for the protection of several branches of our manufactures. Unquestionably, the principle of protection is carried as far in this country as in most other countries of the world; but it is a fallacy to suppose, that absolute freedom of trade can now be established. As it

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regards some articles, our present system may perhaps be relaxed without much inconvenience; but not as it regards all. I remember it was argued when the Corn bill was under discussion; that, with respect to some articles, time, and the change of circumstances, had rendered the system of protecting duties merely a nominal protection. This may be true, with reference to several branches of our manufactures; but it is not true with reference to others. The cotton manufacture, for instance, in which we have acquired so great a superiority over other nations, need not fear any thing from an abolition of all protection. I believe also—although the woollen manufacturers are not of that opinion—that if all the protecting laws which regard the woollen manufacture were to be repealed, no injurious effect would thereby be occasioned. But with respect to silk, that manufacture in this kingdom is so completely artificial, that any attempt to introduce the principles of free trade with reference to it, might put an end to it altogether. I allow that the silk manufacture is not natural to this country; I wish we had never had a silk manufactory; I allow that it is natural to France; I allow that it might have been better had each country adhered exclusively to that manufacture in which each is superior; and had the silks of France been exchanged for British cottons.—But I must look at things as they are; and when I consider the extent of capital, and the immense population (consisting I believe of above 50,000 persons) engaged in our silk manufacture, I can only say, that one of the few points in the noble marquis's speech in which I totally disagree with him, is the expediency, under existing circumstances, of holding out any idea that it would be possible to relinquish the silk manufacture, and to provide for those who live by it, by parliamentary enactment.
Whatever objections there may be to the continuance of the protecting system, I repeat that it is impossible altogether to relinquish it. I may regret that the system was ever commenced; but as I cannot recall that act, I must submit to the inconvenience by which it is attended, rather than expose the country to evils of much greater magnitude. Then, as to our linen manufacture, are your lordships aware of the effect which would be produced on the linen manufacture of Ireland, by a repeal of all the duties on the
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importation of foreign linen? When I contemplate the advantage which Ireland derives from her linen manufacture, I am startled at the suggestion of such a measure. I may regret, that those protecting duties which have brought about so artificial a state of commerce were originally imposed; but it is not because a thing has been wrongly done, that it may therefore be undone. The linen manufacture is too intimately blended and mixed up with the capital, and habits, and prejudices of the population of Ireland, to allow us to doubt that any measure subversive of it would destroy the peace and tranquillity of the most prosperous part of that country. I must pause, therefore, before I can consent to any alteration in our protecting system by which a great, immediate, and positive evil may be incurred, however clear and incontrovertible the general abstract principle on which that alteration may be recommended.
With regard to absolute prohibitions, I allow that it may be desirable to submit to the consideration of a committee the expediency of getting rid of such prohibitions,—at least, as nearly as possible. But I would not lead the public to suppose, that much benefit can be derived from the change; because, in many of the cases where the prohibition is abolished, protecting duties must be proposed of so high a description as to be almost tantamount to prohibition. Still, however, I admit that the moral effect of abolishing prohibition will be good. To prohibit by law the introduction of any article, which, after all, cannot be kept out of the country, has a very pernicious tendency. When an article is prohibited, there are many persons who deem it necessary to have it on that very account. When there are individuals in the country who do not mind what they pay for a prohibited article, there will always be others who will not mind what risk they run for the purpose of gratifying them; and it is unwise and unjustifiable on the part of the legislature to create so strong a temptation for the violation of the laws. I am therefore desirous that we should investigate the practicability of getting rid of the prohibitory system; because, I am persuaded that its abolition would be morally advantageous; although I am at the same time of opinion that it would be productive of no very material advantage as respects the increase of our manufactures and trade.

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I proceed to some of the other propositions comprehended in the noble marquis's speech. To the general motion, I have already said that I entertain no objection whatever. I think the objects of that motion perfectly fair. The only difference between the noble marquis and myself is, that I do not set so high a value on the results which the noble marquis expects from the investigation, as he does. At the same time, for one, am most willing that we should see what can be done for the relief of our foreign trade; and, if we find that nothing can be done, distinctly to say so.
The first point, and in which I completely coincide with the noble marquis, is, the benefit that would follow such an extension of our warehousing system, as might make this country the general entrepôt of commerce. The policy of that system originated with Mr. Pitt; and it was always his plan to extend it, as rapidly indeed as it could be connected with arrangements which could give security to the revenue. The warehousing system, gradually growing to its present height, now forms a very important branch of our commerce: and I entirely agree with the noble marquis, that it would be wise to inquire how far it may admit of revision and extension. With respect to the transit duties, also, I agree with the noble marquis. I cannot see any grounds for their continuance, any more than I can for their having been originally imposed. I cannot discover any reason why goods should not come and go, free of duty; or, at most, with a very moderate impost; in order to make this country as great an emporium of commerce as possible. When, a few years ago, an attempt was made to get rid of these duties, that attempt was successfully resisted on grounds which were very fallacious; but even those fallacious grounds have since disappeared. At that time it was maintained that, as we were nearly the only carriers in the world, we had the power in our own hands; and that the rest of the world could get many goods only from us. In this argument there was then much of delusion. But our present situation is very different. We are no longer the exclusive carriers of Europe; and therefore I am at a loss to conceive on what principle the shipping interest of this country should not enjoy all the advantages which the shipping interest of any other country enjoys in the carrying trade.
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Another point to which the noble marquis has called your lordships attention, is the duty on foreign timber. I can see no objection to referring the consideration of this subject to a committee; but I apprehend the noble marquis is a little mistaken in his view of the origin of these duties. There are a few circumstances connected with the history of them, which it may be necessary to recall to the recollection of the House, and of which I will take leave shortly to remind your lordships. When in the year 1809, we were shut out from all trade to the continent, and were likely to experience a great want of timber, which would of course have affected our general shipping interest, and which, as it respected our navy, became extremely alarming, the attention of government was naturally directed to the means of averting so serious a national calamity. Communications on the subject were in consequence had with several merchants; and they engaged, in consideration of a protecting duty which was promised to them, to embark their capital in the transport and carriage of American timber to this country. Such was the origin of the protecting duty. The duty was originally proposed, not for the purposes of revenue, but to induce certain merchants to embark in anew trade. It was, nevertheless, a temporary measure; and I perfectly agree with the noble marquis, that at the time of its adoption, any positive assurance of its continuance was refused. A subsequent duty was certainly laid on in the year 1815 (and I believe a smaller one before) for the purpose of revenue; and it is quite clear, that to the continuance of the duty so laid for revenue; the American merchant can have no claim whatever; but that it may be abrogated without difficulty. Two or three years ago, when strong representations on the subject were made to the board of trade, by the ship owners, for perpetuating the duty, their application was refused; and they were told, that after the 20th of March, 1821, the duties would be an open question for parliament to deal with, as in its wisdom it might think proper. The continuance of the duty, which was imposed for the purpose of revenue, the merchants have no right to expect; but as large capitals are embarked in the trade, it may be a question whether certain of the protecting duties should not be continued, at least for a further term. Without, however, giving any opinion as

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to the precise course which it is adviseable to pursue—whether the object can be best attained by partly lowering the duty on timber from the Baltic, or by imposing a countervailing duty on the timber from North America;—I entirely agree with the noble marquis, that the question is fully open to the consideration of parliament; and that it is one which ought to be submitted to the investigation of the committee, which the noble marquis proposes to appoint; by which I have no doubt it will be entered upon with a due regard to the interests of the parties more immediately concerned, as well as to the broader and more general interests of the country at large.
The next point of our foreign commerce which was adverted to by the noble marquis, is our trade in wine. I am perfectly aware that the treaty with Portugal, concluded at the commencement of the last century, and called the Methuen treaty, which, at the time of its conclusion was considered to be one of the greatest master-pieces and monuments of political wisdom, and which was negotiated by one of our most able statesmen, is now deemed to have been a departure from all the soundest principles of national policy. The object of that treaty was, the expectation, that, by the sacrifice of a third of our duties on the wines of Portugal, as compared with the wines of France, we should secure a more extensive, or at least a more secure, market for the sale of our woollen cloths. By a clause in the second article of that treaty, Portugal reserved to herself the right, if we at any time should discontinue the comparative abatement of our duties on Portugal wines, stipulated in the earlier part of the same article to prohibit the importation into Portugal of British woollen manufactures. Undoubtedly we have a right to terminate this arrangement. Whether or not it would be politic to risk the retaliation which Portugal might inflict, in the event of our equalizing the duties on French and Portugal wines, is another question. Before your lordships decide upon it, it will be expedient that you should see how matters stand at present; and what are the advantages which the adoption of any such measure would produce, to counterbalance even the temporary inconvenience and loss that our woollen and other manufacturers might sustain from it. And here I beg leave to make a few observations, with a view to
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correct a great misapprehension which seems to exist, as to the extent of the benefits derived by this country from the treaty of commerce concluded with France in the year 1787. I was not at that time a member of parliament; but, if I had been so, I must certainly have acquiesced in the expediency of that treaty. It appears to me to have been founded on just and fair principles of reciprocity. It is a curious circumstance, however, and one that demands our serious attention, that Mr. Pitt did not, at that period, propose to equalize the duties on foreign wines. He consented to a diminution of the duties on French wines; but then it was only in the proportion of two-thirds to a diminution of the duties on Portugal wines; so that the preference was still given to the latter. But let us see how this treaty of 1787, acted on the trade of this country. In the five years which elapsed from 1787 to 1792, under the operation of this commercial treaty with France, the annual average amount of the exports of British produce and manufactures to France was 718,695 l. Our exports to Portugal, during the same period, amounted to 657,652 l.: and to Spain, 623,340 l. So that our exports to France, were only about 60,000 l. greater in the same period, than our exports to Portugal, and not 100,000 l. greater than our exports to Spain; which, considering the difference in the extent and population of the countries, was a very trifling superiority. At present there is also to be taken into our estimate, not only the question of our trade with Portugal, but that of our trade to the Brazils. The annual amount of British produce and manufactures, at present exported to Portugal and the Brazils, is not less than four millions sterling. It is a growing and improving trade, which it is highly desirable that we should cultivate. When I say this, I do not wish to give it as my opinion, that the course recommended by the noble marquis, is one that we ought not to adopt; I wish merely to suggest to your lordships the necessity of well considering, whether the additional commerce with France, which that course is calculated to secure, is likely to be, upon the whole, as beneficial to this country as the noble marquis anticipates. In many respects I agree with the noble marquis, that it would be better if we could remove the duties, provided we could obtain correspondent advantages. But, when I perceive; that on

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the subject of our manufactures, the greatest possible jealousy exists at this moment in the various countries of Europe, and particularly in France, I feel all the difficulties of the case, and the influence which that jealousy must necessarily have on our policy.
With regard to our commerce with the East Indies, that is a question which must be looked at in two points of view:—The first, in which I entirely agree with the noble marquis, as it respects the advantages to our carrying trade, and shipping interest; the second, on which I own I entertain considerable doubts, as it respects any probable increase in the exportation of our manufactures to that quarter of the world. On the latter head I certainly think it doubtful whether any alteration of the present system would prove serviceable. A number of merchants have tried the experiment of trading with the East Indies, some have succeeded, and many have failed. The superiority of British machinery, aided by British capital, over cheap manual labour, comparatively exempt from taxation, is such, that, as I am informed, British muslins are at this moment selling on the continent of India, for half the price of India muslins; notwithstanding the heavy charges of freight and other expenses in their transmission from this country. The prospect opened in consequence to our merchants in India has led to great efforts in trade;—to efforts which have been much too great. A chief cause of the falling off in our exports last year, as compared with our exports in former years, was, the amazing export to Asia, which took place in the year immediately preceding; by which the market was so over-stocked, that the consumption by no means kept pace with the supply; the consequence of which was, a deficiency in the returns, and a corresponding distress on the part of the manufacturers in this country.—I see no reason why, under the present system (for the trade to India is free) the export of British manufactures may not be extended as far as the demand will admit, and I am decidedly adverse to the policy on commercial principles of forcing the demand; the effect of such a measure soon recoils upon our manufactures, and the consequent distress more than counterbalances the former profits. As to China, the attempts to introduce British manufactures to any extent into that country have not proved equally satisfac-
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tory; and I confess, that when I consider the extreme jealousy which exists on this subject in the Chinese empire, I cannot entertain very sanguine hopes that the future attempts will be attended by any very great advantages. Although it is certainly true, that the direct private trade between this country and China, is prevented by the charter granted to the East India company; there is, nevertheless an extensive private trade carried on between India and China; and I understand that private traders are permitted to bring even tea to India, under licences granted by the resident government; which licences are never refused, on proper security being given.—I allow that this part of the question of our external commerce is extremely important, as it relates to our carrying trade, and shipping interest. In all that the noble marquis has said with respect to the advantage that would accrue to us from opening a direct trade between India, and every part of Europe, Asia, Africa, and America, I entirely concur. The powers necessary for opening such a trade were especially reserved in the charter granted to the East India company. It was originally intended to make this country the emporium of the trade between India and the North of Europe, and Malta the emporium of the Indian trade in the Mediterranean; but I have no hesitation in saying that, under the present circumstances of the world, I see no reason why any goods that may be legally imported from India, should not be so imported in British ships, direct, to any part of the world, without their first going either through this country or Malta; and a bill has been prepared to carry this object into effect. Of course, the tea trade and the direct trade with China, must be excepted, as they are matters of compact with the East India company, until an arrangement can be made for opening these trades under certain limitations with the company.
I have now gone through the various topics which I felt it my duty to submit to your lordships' consideration. In doing so, I have thought it necessary to take a wider view than the noble marquis took, of the circumstances and situation of the country. I do not say this with the slightest intention of imputing blame to the noble marquis. In my situation, as a member of his majesty's government, it appeared to be incumbent on me not to assent to the noble marquis's motion,

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without a general explanation of my opinions, not only on the points touched upon by him, but on every other point connected with this great and important subject. I have thought it due to myself, to the House, and to the country, to endeavour to explain the nature of our situation, both internally, and with respect to our commercial intercourse with foreign states; to endeavour to show what have been the causes of the distress which we are suffering; and to discover whether there are any means by which that distress may be remedied, or diminished. I have not attempted to conceal, nor will I attempt to conceal, that it appears to me, that from time and patience, our chief expectation of relief must be derived. I confess, that I do not think the measures recommended by the noble marquis, although important in themselves, will have any very extensive effect or operation. But I am sure they are worthy, at least, of a fair and deliberate consideration. I should be most unwilling, in times like these particularly, that projects of improvement, where no injury can arise from the experiment, should be lightly discarded: but I own that there is nothing which alarms me so much as a meddling disposition, on the part of the legislature, with reference to these subjects, upon insufficient grounds; a continual tampering with great questions; a change of regulation, session after session, to comply with temporary emergency, partial interests, or unreasonable clamour. I firmly believe that, on all commercial subjects, the fewer the laws the better. I am sorry to see so many on our Statute book; but the evil is not one of easy remedy. Some of those laws may, perhaps, be advantageously removed; and others maybe altered and amended; but the undertaking is one that will be attended with difficulty, and must be conducted with the greatest caution. In commerce, as in the ordinary relations of life, knowledge and the confidence derived from previous certainty, are the most advantageous guides; for, when even evils or inconveniences are ascertained, they may be met, and perhaps successfully combated. Experience proves that property and trade will adapt themselves, in time, even to mistaken and defective laws; but constant fluctuations in our legislation, on such subjects, can only be productive of disorder and ruin. If every year there is to be a change in our commercial laws, no man, or body of men,
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can know on what they are to rely. Under such a course of policy, neither the merchants of this country, nor those of foreign nations, will be able to confide in us; and our distresses, instead of being relieved, will be multiplied ten-fold.
The Earl of Lauderdalebegan by complimenting the noble earl and the noble marquis on the able manner in which they had conducted this important discussion. He concurred in a great deal of what had fallen from both, but especially in what had been said by the noble earl on the subject of the corn laws: nothing could be more prejudicial to the agricultural interest than the annual revival and agitation of that question. His principal reason, however, for rising at present was, because, in some respects, he took a more consolitary view of the situation of the country than either of the noble lords—than even the noble earl, who had given, from authentic documents, such a cheering prospect of the trade of the kingdom, by which, it was evident that that trade had been diminished much less than was generally conceived. When he reflected on the causes operating to produce distress—on the exertions already made to repel the evil—and the small decrease of demand, he could not but entertain a sanguine hope that the deficiency would be supplied through the inquiries of the proposed committee. The noble earl had said, in one part of his speech, that but for the paper currency the war could not have been continued: perhaps not; and perhaps the evil of discontinuance would not have been so great as the noble earl imagined: certain it was, that no other human invention could, in the whole, have produced so much calamity as a paper currency. On this subject he could talk with the noble earl with considerable freedom, because, after the report of last year, in which the noble earl had heartily concurred, it was evident that they thought alike. He begged, therefore, to call the notice of the noble earl to a few figures which indisputably showed the state to which the paper currency had reduced the country; they were contained in some tables, printed in the year 1813, reaching a second edition soon afterwards, and uncontradicted from that time to the present. His lordship here detailed some of the items in these tables, arriving at the conclusion that, in consequence of a paper currency, the nation was now called upon to pay ten millions more annually than if

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specie payments had continued. Recollecting the increase of taxes in 1815, and the additional three millions imposed since the peace, he would venture to assert that since 1815 the country had been subjected in the whole to an increase of taxation to the extent of not less than seventeen millions. At the time the kingdom was burthened with this enormous load, peace arrived: for eight years Great Britain had been expending twenty-eight millions of her capital—the artificial demand for commodities was stopped at once, and an accumulated population was thrown out of employ. Still, however, she rose superior to all her difficulties, and this fact gave him so high a notion of the vigour and energy of the country, as to induce him to believe that she would, sooner than was imagined, recover her prosperous station among the powers of Europe. The agriculturist seemed to wish to make a separate cause against the manufacturer, which, if possible, must end in the ruin of both; but, in truth, distinction was out of the question—their interests were intimatety combined, and the House would not listen for a moment to any proposition to distinguish them, and to support the one at the expense of the other. He was sorry to find that this disposition to union did not prevail in the country so much as could be wished; and, in reference to the various petitions upon the table, he called the attention of the House to that of the city of London, contending that, properly analysed, it was nothing more nor less than a remonstrance against the corn-laws. As to commercial treaties with France, or any other power, it was nonsense to suppose that one country could obtain an advantage over another: at this moment France seemed actuated from some whimsical cause by a jealousy of Great Britain. The London petitioners did not wish to touch articles connected with the revenue; but all articles of trade were more or less so connected excepting corn; so that the corn-laws were the only object of their complaint. He could not help taking notice of one petition, asserting the principles of free trade; but it contained one clause, indicating a great deal of good sense, and an understanding of the real situation of the country. He alluded to the petition from Glasgow, in which it was said, that "this subject must be entered upon with great caution and prudence, and
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that no alteration of the laws affecting any branch of commerce should be attempted until after a full investigation of the particular case." The whole subject must be examined upon the merits of each particular case. The noble marqui3 had called the attention of the House to the opening of commerce in the China seas; and when the India bill was before parliament, he (lord Lauderdale) had been one of its strenuous opponents, because he thought that the inhabitants, with an income of half a crown a month, could never purchase enough of our manufactures to make it answer. He had been deceived; and glad he was to find that the demand was most important—that the natives, in the rainy season, gladly purchased our coarsest woollens; and on this account the subject well merited inquiry.—He wished to say a word or two upon the sinking fund, which was connected with this question: he should be most happy, if possible, to do away with it, as it was founded upon an absurd and injurious principle. Suppose it amounted to five millions a year, it was nothing more nor less than a forcible assumption of five millions of taxes to be converted into capital. Now, if this sum were not so forcibly applied, it might be employed by all who paid it in the purchase of manufactures, and at the present moment such an addition would be of incalculable advantage. The noble earl repeated the opinion he had given, that the nation would recover sooner than was generally imagined; and he supported it by a reference to the mode in which capital had been accumulated, and the natural desire to enjoy what we possessed. The country at large was not impoverished, though the distribution of property was different, and time would soon teach men how to apply what they had acquired. He was happy that his noble friend had brought forward this subject: he thought the inquiry would be productive of benefit; but if not, at least the nation would this night have had the benefit of a wide, profound, and, in some important respects, consolatory statement of its present situation and its future prospects.
Lord Ellenboroughperfectly concurred with his noble friend who made the present motion, that an extension of our foreign trade would be highly advantageous both to our agriculture and to our manufactures. He expressed the great satisfaction which he felt at having heard

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from the noble earl that it was his intention to support the present laws respecting agriculture; he was sure that they were necessary, and he was also sure that if any change were made in them at present, such change would inevitably lead to consequences dangerous to the constitution. With reference to tins subject he had listened with great pleasure to the prices of corn which had been quoted by the noble earl. He was persuaded that corn had maintained a much more uniform price since the bill for its protection, and he thought that a great blessing, as a constant oscillation between dearth and plenty, labour and laziness, the gin-shop and the poor-house, was to be greatly deprecated. Adverting to the last subject which he had named, he regretted that the poor laws had not beer, touched on by either of the noble lords. It was a most material feature of the national distress. Great difficulties undoubtedly surrounded the question. It had been his intention to offer to their lordships some proposition respecting it; bat after a good deal of consideration he had come to the conclusion that an advantageous arrangement could advantageously originate only in the other House, and could be successfully accomplished only by the interference of the ministers of the Crown. The system of the poor laws was so execrable, that he was convinced if we did not destroy it, it would destroy us. It demoralized the whole country. It destroyed that union of feeling and interest which ought always to subsist between the rich and the poor; it deprived the one class of the gratifications of charity, and the other class of those of gratitude. It led to general corruption and misery. It created a population, and at the same time it diminished their means of subsistence. Great as was his noble friend's experience, he must say that he differed from him as to cause of the distress and discontent in Europe. He quite agreed with his noble friend who had just sat down, that this country was really richer at the present moment than at the commencement of the late war. He believed that the same was the case in France. He was certain that it was so in Italy, and in some parts of Germany. The general distress he attributed, in a great measure, to the regulations that had taken place since the destruction of the French power. Most of the states on the continent had surrounded
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themselves as with walls of brass, to inhibit intercourse with other states. Intercourse was prohibited even in districts of the same state, as was the case in Austria and Sardinia. Thus, though the taxes on the people had been lightened, the severity of their condition had been increased. He believed that the discontent which pervaded most parts of Europe, and especially Germany, was more owing to commercial restrictions than to any theoretical doctrines on government; and that a free communication among them would do more to restore tranquillity than any other step that could be adopted. He objected to all attempts to frustrate the benevolent intention of Providence, which gave to various countries various wants in order to bring them together. He objected to it as anti-social. He objected to making commerce the means of barbarising instead of enlightening nations; he objected to it as destructive of the happiness of the whole world. Adverting to that part of the noble carl's speech, in which he observed that wine was the only and consequently the inefficient equivalent that foreign countries had to offer us in commerce, he remarked that the article of silks might be added to supply the deficiency. The same duty was now paid in Great Britain on Swedish deals, which were only 14 feet long, as was paid on Russian, which were 20 feet long. The Swedish deals were thus completely excluded. What was extraordinary too was, that in Ireland the Swedish deals were admitted, on payment of a graduated duty; and he was persuaded that great advantages might be obtained in negotiation with Sweden, merely by substituting at graduated duty, without any diminution of it. The state of the trade with France was, however, the most disgraceful to both countries. The two greatest civilized nations of the world, placed at a distance of scarcely twenty miles from each other, had contrived, by their artificial regulations, to reduce their commerce with each other to a mere nullity. From us France would take nothing but colonial produce, and from France we would only receive a few of the products of her soil. It was thus only that the accidental loss of her colonies by France had caused any commercial intercourse to be continued between the two countries. He looked forward to a reduction of the duties on French wines and silks, and on

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some of these articles of luxury which the French could manufacture better than we, with great satisfaction, as the most important benefits would be derived from the commencement of a free intercourse between the two countries. Had there been any objection to the motion, he should have entered at greater length into the subject; but he saw with the utmost pleasure that the inquiry was to be entered upon, as the House would at least see in what situation the country stood, and what it was practicable to do in alleviation of the present distress.
Lord Calthorpeexpressed the great satisfaction which he felt at the proceedings of that evening, and at the profound as well as candid manner in which the question had been treated, and the eloquent and statesman-like developement which had been made of the circumstances of the country. There were few circumstances which would tend more to persuade the people that they lived under a paternal government, than the proceedings of that night. As to the Corn bill, he was glad to find it proved that one of the parts of it that had been objected to, the mode of taking averages, contained in itself the principle of self-correction. The principles of freedom of trade, which be was happy to see so fully recognized, were of the utmost consequence; for though, in the present circumstances of the country, a free trade was unattainable, yet their task hereafter was to approximate to it. Considering the prejudices and interests which were opposed to the recognition of that principle, it was no small indication of the firmness and liberality of his majesty's ministers to have so fully conceded it.
The motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed, consisting, among other peers, of the earls of Liverpool, Rosslyn, Darlington, Albemarle, Donoughmore, Lauderdale, Darnley and Bathurst, the dukes of Wellington and Athol, lords Clare arid Calthorpe.