Sitting of 16 May 1820

COMMERCIAL RESTRICTIONS—PETITION FROM THE GLASGOW CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.
Mr. Finlaysaid, he held in his hand a petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Glasgow, a body of gentlemen who were highly interested in the commercial prosperity of the country, praying the establishment of a free trade, and the removal of all restrictions upon commercial imports and exports. Upon a subject of such vital importance, he trusted the House would grant him its indulgence for a few moments. The presentation of a similar petition from the merchants of the city of London made it the more necessary that he should say a few words on the present occasion. The petitioners were of opinion, that the distresses of the commercial and manufacturing interests of this country were much increased, if not in a great measure caused by the various restrictions which impeded our imports from and exports to foreign countries. These restrictions having been so long continued in this country, led other nations into a belief that it was to such regulations we owed our prosperity, and thus induced them to, follow our example. The petitioners were of opinion, not only that such restrictions ought to be removed,

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but that their removal should not be contingent upon the conduct adopted towards us by any other country. It was unnecessary for him to say, that the restrictions of which the petitioners complained had not been enacted by the present administration; but he could not help regretting that government had not availed itself of the many opportunities which offered of removing them. If it should be found that the history of our commercial policy was a tissue of mistakes and false notions, it surely was not too much to express a hope that that policy should be given up, and a permanent system of commercial regulations established in its stead. It would be a cheering consolation and excitement to the commerce of this country, if it was shown that parliament was determined to set its face against those pernicious restrictions by which we had been so long shackled. When on a recent occasion, a free trade was in a great measure established to certain countries, the restrictions with respect to that with China were continued in full force. Now, let the House see the different situations in which a British merchant and an American merchant were placed by this regulation. The Americans were allowed a free trade, the English merchants were debarred from it; they could not trade south of the Cape of Good Hope unless in vessels of a certain tonnage. This of itself was a severe hardship. Such, indeed, were our regulations on this subject, that it was impossible, even had it been intended, to devise any more effectual means of aiding the American to the prejudice of the British merchant. Suppose a British and an American merchant, both in London, to hear at the same time of a favourable market in China for certain British commodities, or elsewhere south of the Cape. Upon such occasions there are two things necessary—secresy and dispatch. The American can charter a ship of 150 or 200 tons burden, freight her with the articles in demand, and sail in a week. But what is the situation of the English merchant? He must first employ counsel, and make himself acquainted with the law on the subject.—Next, he has to apply to the East India Company for a licence for the ship, and another for the supercargo. But as the Company do not grant any licences to supercargoes, but such as return in the ship to England, he has probably to wait a month. He is then informed, that the li-
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cence cannot be granted, and he of course applies to the board of control. Thus, at the end of six weeks or two months, when it is publicly known that such articles are in demand, he is able to freight a ship, but not one fit for the trade—not one of 200 tons burden, but a ship of at least 350 tons. Here then, after publicity has been given—after an opportunity offers for all who please to enter into such a speculation, he is enabled to forward his vessel at double the expense of the American merchant, and with the disadvantage, too, of being forestalled in the market. He would put it to the House, whether this was not a hardship—whether it was not a drawback upon our commerce which called for redress? He did not mean to propose that the privileges of the India Company should be infringed upon. On a former occasion, he had opposed the granting of certain privileges to that company, but these privileges having been granted, he should be the last man to propose a violation of them. It was not enough to say that the Company did not avail themselves of these privileges, and therefore they should be deprived of them. What he wanted was, to draw the attention of parliament to the subject; let the consent of the Company be obtained, if it could be obtained, for the removal of those restrictions; but in the mean time, there were many points on which the trade of the country could be opened with infinite advantage to its commercial prosperity. There was, for instance, the circuitous trade, and the trade to places not under the control of the India Company, or not traded to by them. It certainly was matter of choice with the India Company, whether or not they would tolerate British merchants to participate in those advantages enjoyed by the Americans; but it was not too much to expect that they would give the former the preference. If the noble lord (Castlereagh) were in his place, he would remind him of what he promised when the Circuitous Trade bill was before the House. The noble lord on that occasion, pledged himself to an inquiry into it on the return of peace.—He should not trouble the House much further on the subject, as he hoped, that it would, at no distant period, be brought more particularly under discussion, to the benefit of the manufactures and commerce of the country. There were yet, however, a few points to which he wished to refer. It was urged, that a free trade was

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very good in theory, but that it could never be beneficially reduced to practice. He, however, felt convinced, that it could be reduced to practice, at least to a greater extent, and much more beneficially than was contemplated by those gentlemen who opposed it. So convinced was he of this, that he felt surprised it was not taken up and enforced by his majesty's ministers, and carried as far as it was found beneficially practicable. An hon. member had on a former evening pointed out many cases where restrictions could be removed without trenching on the privileges of the India Company, and by which the commerce of the country would be greatly improved. It would be of the greatest advantage if the shipping interest were allowed to import freely all the produce they thought proper from other countries. This would not only benefit our trade, but would also benefit the shipholder. The bonding system was also alluded to on a former occasion. He would be glad to know what disadvantage could arise from a regulation of that system? The true principle upon which it was originally founded, was that of enabling us to import for the purpose of exporting the produce of one country to the country where it was consumed. It was clearly our interest, that what was imported into this country should be imported at as small a charge as possible. He wished also to throw out a suggestion as to the propriety of abandoning duties on the raw material. There were certain articles upon which such a duty operated most injuriously.—There were one or two other points to which he wished to allude. It was of the utmost importance that our revenue laws should be placed on a steady and permanent footing. Extents in aid also was a subject which demanded inquiry. It surely never was the intention of the legislature that a private individual should seize on another's property, to the prejudice of other creditors, under pretence of a debt to the Crown. There was another point which he conceived to be a great impediment to the wealth and commerce of the country, he meant the Usury Laws. Those laws were a great restraint on the proper erriplo3-meht of capital. He was aware that many gentlemen differed widely from him on this subject. But he hoped that an inquiry would take place, and he was sure the House would see the necessity of altering fine existing regulations. The Bankrupt laws also
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called for a revision; it was impossible that commerce could flourish under the existing bankruptcy regulations. One word more on the subject of a free trade. If it was deemed dangerous at once to remove all restrictions, at least they might be removed on a few articles. He was sure, that if this were done, the competition which it would cause would be of great advantage to the country. There were some of our manufactures of which he would speak with hesitation; but with respect to the cotton manufacture he felt no hesitation in saying, that a removal of all restrictions would be attended with infinite advantage. He wished to see the cottons of all other countries imported here: from what he had seen abroad, he was sure it would be attended with benefit. We had something to learn, and as to any continental markets outselling us to any extent, it was out of the question. He thought a removal of restrictions as to cutlery and hardware would also be of service to both those trades; besides, it would set to other nations an example of what was the only true system of commercial intercourse between nations.—The hon. member, adverting to what was said by Mr. Baring on a former evening, observed, that he differed with that hon. member on two points; first, he did not think that the other nations of Europe, or even that America could more easily recover from its embarrassments than we could. It was certainly true with respect to France, but not with respect to Germany or America, though the debt and taxation of the latter country were trifling compared to ours. Neither did he look so despondingly to our situation as that hon. member did. He was happy to sec our commerce and manufactures reviving, and he hoped in a few months to see them flourish. The hon. member had truly said, that peace and good order were essential to prosperity. The people were by degrees coming back from that delusion and infatuation into which their own folly had plunged them, and which, had they persevered in it, must have worked their destruction. He expected in a short time to see the wages of the labourer such as to afford him those comforts of which he had for a time been deprived. He Would not trouble the House further. He would leave in their hands the petition; it was one which demanded their serious consideration, equally from the character of the petitioners and the importance of

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the subject of which It treated. If the great man, Adam Smith, whose sentiments the petition contained, had but lived to see his doctrines thus expounded, it must have afforded him inconceivable pleasure.
The petition was brought up and read. On the question that it do he on the table,
Mr. Baringsaid, that a petition coming from so great and respectable a body as the Chamber of Commerce of Glasgow, deserved the most favourable attention from that House. Every efficient means ought to be taken to promote their reasonable objects; every consideration was due to their reasonable claims. When he had a few days ago presented a similar petition to that House, from the merchants and traders of London, he moved that it should he on the table, in order to see, in the mean time, what the other great commercial towns would be disposed to do. He did so, because he felt convinced that whatever might be the disposition of parliament, no great practical benefit could be accomplished without the general concurrence of the country at large. His hon. friend who had just presented the petition before them, differed from him, but in very few and inefficient points. The House, he said, must have heard with pleasure from his hon. friend, that some of the principal manufactures which had been for some time depressed, had, at least partially, revived. And he agreed with his hon. friend in thinking, that, however gloomy and unpromising appearances might be, there was yet no serious apprehension (if proper exertions were made) that the, commercial and manufacturing interests of this country would be endangered in any material degree. During the war an extraordinary impulse was given to the manufacturing interests of England—an extensive, but an artificial trade prevailed, which could not be kept up in a time of peace. That state of things must give way to one of a more moderate, but more solid and more natural kind. He concurred with his hon. friend, that if the House would encourage the commerce and manufactures of the country by good laws—by wise and liberal regulations, that they would again behold the revival of commerce and of general prosperity. But it was only by great efforts that such desirable objects could be accomplished; they were not to fall asleep over the state of the country; they were not to suppose,
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because trade had so long flourished—because things had gone on prosperously for a great length of time, that without any exertions on their part they would revive and flourish. On the contrary, they must be convinced that new and great difficulties had arisen—that the situation of other countries presented serious difficulties to the encouragement of British commerce—and that extraordinary exertions were necessary to meet and to overcome those difficulties. He entirely concurred with his hon. friend in this—that he did not despond with regard to the state of the country; whilst he was willing to admit that the country, as to its commercial and agricultural relations, could not preserve that artificial degree which it held during the war, but must be reduced to a more reasonable standard. When his hon. friend had stated that this country had manufacturing facilities above all other countries, he must yet be convinced that those facilities would be transferred to other nations, should they remain in peace for any considerable time. Those advantages consisted not in cheapness of labour; they consisted in the extent of capital, in the perfect state of machinery, in the enterprising spirit of our people. In those respects we had the start of the other nations of the world. But those advantages would be lost in the course of time, and nothing but the greatest possible attention to the state of our manufacturing and commercial interests—nothing but the most watchful and active exertions, and the wisest laws could preserve them. An hon. gentleman had stated some advantages as belonging to the cotton manufactories; but if the raw materials of that article were subjected to any considerable duty, neither that hon. gentleman, nor the best informed man in that House, could calculate the precise extent of the duty which the manufacturer could bear, so as to be able at the same time to hold a competition with other countries; and to try an experiment of that description would expose him to the utmost danger. He repeated, that he did not anticipate any misfortunes to the commercial interests of the country; he did not anticipate misfortunes, because he had every confidence in the wisdom of that House. He was glad to see that there did not exist any hostility in the shipping interests of the country as to the objects embraced by the petition before them. He had that morning attended a

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numerous body of the ship-owners, who had met to express their apprehensions of the consequences that would result from the object of the petition being carried into effect to its fullest extent. He had addressed that meeting on several practical points embraced by the petition, and, as it often happened when men explained themselves one to another, he soon found that there was not any great difference between him and the meeting, but that they agreed on every point, with the single exception of the timber-trade. A great concurrence of opinion existed between the ship-owners and the other interests of the country; and with respect to any particular alteration in the navigation laws, that body were anxious to permit the carriage of any articles in foreign bottoms, with this exception, that they should not extend to the produce or growth of India, or of the colonies; because if those articles were merely to be brought across the Channel in British vessels, it would operate to the disadvantage of British shipping. But, with respect to the produce of every part of Europe they had no objection to their importation. The hon. member concluded by saying, that when gentlemen inquired into the particular points they would not find so much difference of opinion, as they first imagined to exist; and he did hope, that in the course of a short time they would be able to view the various interests of this country with liberal feelings, and would be able to apply the means of their revival and prosperity.
Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. Ellicepresented a petition from certain Woollen Manufacturers of Hawick. He said, that after the discussion which had taken place on the petition presented by the member for Glasgow, and after the observations which had fallen from his hon. friend (Mr. Baring), he was induced to say one or two words on presenting the petition which he held in his hand. As an instance of the advantage which the public derived from the discussions which had taken place in that House, he had now the honour of presenting, for the first time, a petition from a numerous and respectable body of manufacturers, praying to be relieved from the general restrictions which were placed on the trade of the country; they complained of the great distress and difficulties under which they laboured; and were of opinion that the state of things was such as could not long
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exist, without involving every interest in the country in one common ruin. One mode of affording relief to trade was by removing the numerous restrictions which oppressed it in every quarter. The petition principally went to the repeal of duties on wool, rape and corn, but they had no objection that all the restrictions which affected trade in general should be taken into consideration.
Ordered to lie on the table.

MILITARY EXPENDITURE OF THE COUNTRY.
Colonel Daviesrose to direct the attention of the House to a subject at all times of the utmost importance, but. more peculiarly so at the present moment, when the country, labouring under the pressure of severe and accumulated distress, required every assistance which it was in the power of parliament to afford it. He felt that he must throw himself on the indulgence of the House, of which he certainly had need when he undertook the task of bringing under its consideration our existing military establishments, with a view to point out what might require amendment, and to suggest a remedy. He also felt, that in bringing forward this subject at the present time, he should have to encounter disadvantages and difficulties which, when he first turned his thoughts to it, he did not anticipate; for, however general the desire throughout the country might be to see some measure adopted, which should have for its object a retrenchment in the public expenditure, yet the unfortunate events which had lately occurred, had filled the minds of many with so much alarm, that however friendly they might be to the general principle of economy, he should find them at the outset, prejudiced against any proposition which could, by possibility, weaken the powers at the disposal of government. Yet, as his object was inquiry, and he should not presume to ask the House to adopt any definitive measures at his suggestion, he hoped, that all those who were friendly to economy, however much they might differ from him as to the extent of the danger by which we were threatened, would join in assisting to promote an inquiry, which could not possibly be attended with mischief, and might be productive of essential benefit to the country. Every thinking man who looked to the situation of this once flourishing country, and saw the misery which had overtaken every class of the

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community, must admit that it was high time for those in public situations to come forward, and endeavour to avert the ruin with which it was threatened. Whatever shape the difficulties of the country might assume—whether they appeared in the decline of commerce, of manufactures, of agriculture, or of them all—yet it was impossible to deny that the source of the evil was to be discovered in the disordered state of our finances. The commerce of the country might be affected by the return of peace; and competitors might rise in those markets where we had hitherto reigned unrivalled; the varying caprice of fashion might cause the substitution of one manufacture for another;—but could it be doubted, that, if left to themselves the energies of our merchants and manufacturers would, as soon as one channel of enterprise was closed to them, discover another? It was the enormous load of taxation which hung like a millstone round their necks that prevented them. How could those difficulties be met?—Not by sitting down in despair, but by a determination to surmount them;—by instituting a rigorous inquiry, and by resolving to make a sacrifice of patronage and emolument for the public service. Urged by these considerations, he had directed his attention to our military establishments, as forming the largest item of the public expenditure, to which the most alarming augmentations had been made; and as that which his habits of life made him best qualified to investigate. He had, therefore, devoted much time and labour to the subject; and the more he examined it, the more he became convinced of the necessity of parliamentary interference. But as he was convinced that it would be impossible for him in the course of any debate, to make the House, masters of so intricate a subject; and with which, notwithstanding all the time he had devoted to it, he was still far from being thoroughly acquainted, he thought the only way to enable it to judge for itself, would be the appointment of a select committee of its members, who should examine into all its details, and report their opinions to the House. This was the more necessary, as most probably much of what he would assert, would be met with counter-assertions by the noble lord (Palmerston) opposite. He was aware that various objections might be made to this mode of proceeding; he might, perhaps, be told that the committee of fi-
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nance had, for some years past, annually taken the military expenditure into their consideration. This subject was, however, of such vast importance as to require the undivided attention of a committee; and without meaning any offence to the finance committee, he must say that but little good had emanated from them. If it were said that the House ought not to interfere, and that the task of retrenchment should be left to the executive government, he would answer, that the persons thus to be intrusted, were not exactly those who would be most likely to carry it into effect. Their interest was connected with the extension, not the diminution of patronage; and it was expecting too much, to suppose that they would seriously undertake the task of abolishing offices which extended their power and influence. If any proof were wanting that ministers were not the persons to whom the task of retrenchment was to be left, it was to be found in their recent appointment, of a governor of Gibraltar. In the whole list of sinecures, there was not one which called more loudly for abolition than this; so much so, that he believed a committee of the House had some years ago, recommended that whenever the then existing interest in it should cease, the office should be abolished. Yet, scarcely was the illustrious person who lately held it, deceased, when, with unprecedented haste, they appointed a successor. The same messenger who carried into the country the intelligence of the death of the duke of Kent, had in his pocket the appointment of the earl of Chatham to succeed him. That noble earl whose military achievements might be summed up in a few words as commander of the memorable expedition to Walcheren [Hear, hear!]. He should therefore conclude what he had to say, with moving, for the appointment of a select committee, to examine into the military expenditure of the country. In order to show that there was occasion for such a committee, and that various reforms and retrenchments might be made, he would take a very concise view of those departments in which he thought such retrenchments would be effectual. He did not mean to say that every thing he advanced would be perfectly correct; mistakes on certain points might arise; but if he inspired a doubt in the minds of the House, if he showed that every establishment was not in its most

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perfect state possible, then he had made good his case, and was fairly entitled to the inquiry he proposed. The first point to which he would advert was the amount of the military force. On looking at the military establishment of 1787, a year of peace corresponding with the present, he found that the whole army, exclusive of India, and including Ireland, was 42,921 men; in 1820, it was 92,224 in number considerably more than double, in expense quintupled. In the year 1819, the total expense of the army, exclusive of extraordinaries, was 6,582,603 l.; for 1820, it was 6,807,535 l.; an increase, as compared with last year, of above 200,000 l. They were also to recollect that corps to be reduced last year caused an increase of expense of 183,000 l., so that the total increase of the present year, as compared with the last, was in fact above 400,000 l. Now he should be glad to know what there was in the situation of the country which justified such an expenditure. He might be told that the disturbed state of the country rendered it necessary that there should be an increase of the army. He believed this feeling prevailed with the majority of the House, and therefore he did not mean on this occasion to press on their consideration the numbers of the army. The propositions he meant to offer went not to impair the efficiency of the army. At the same time he must observe, that the causes which called for this increase of force—he meant the distress which had engendered disaffection and discontent, also loudly demanded retrenchment and economy £Hear, hear!]. It must be in the recollection of every gentleman who sat in the last parliament, that the chancellor of the exchequer, when he came down to add 3,000,000 l. to the taxes, proposed certain resolutions, one of which went to state, in the strongest terms of which language was capable, "the absolute necessity of having an efficient surplus of income over expenditure, to the amount of 5,000,000 l." He should like to know whether any gentleman was prepared to say, there was an overplus. Did not every person know that the new taxes were almost if hot altogether, inefficient? How then were they to carry into effect what parliament had declared to be necessary? How could they produce an effective overplus of income over expenditure? He would answer—by retrenchment, and retrenchment only. He
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thought that ministers would hardly propose to add any farther taxes to the burthens of the country. What then remained but to adopt, every practicable retrenchment of the public expenses? It was with this view that he brought forward the present motion. Party feeling had nothing to do with it. He fully agreed with his noble friend (lord A. Hamilton) who spoke last night, that these were not times for the indulgence of party feeling—but that every man who could contribute to the service of the country ought to come forward boldly and perform that service. Although he meant not to press upon that House, at this moment, the number of the effective force employed, still his own decided opinion was, that the peace and tranquillity of the country might be maintained without the assistance of so large a standing army. To prove this, let them look to the amount of the military force in Scotland. He believed that no man would deny that disaffection existed there more strongly than in any other part of the kingdoms The discontented were more completely organized, they were more determined, and they were more numerous in proportion to the peaceable inhabitants. Yet the army never amounted there to 3,000 effective men; and with that comparatively small regular force, aided by the inhabitants, who came forward to defend their property and families, the peace of the country, with little exception, had been preserved. He wished the people in the South would act in the same manner. It was because the people of Scotland had come forward as yeomen and volunteers, that so small a regular force had been sufficient. He found that those Who came forward in Scotland amounted to 3,700 yeomanry, and nearly 4,000 volunteers, Now the population of the lowlands of Scotland, those parts in which alone disaffection prevailed, did not much exceed the population of Lancashire, when there were but 554 yeomen, and not a single volunteer. They called out for an addition to the military force, because, unlike the people of Scotland, they would not defend themselves. If the people of England would act as those in Scotland had done, they would soon put an end to all disturbance. He now came to that part of the military expenditure connected with the cavalry. There were 24 regiments of cavalry containing 11,000 men. It was not his wish to reduce the

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effective force of the cavalry, but there was a superabundance of them, part of whom might be reduced without in any way impairing its efficacy in the field. They were quartered in places where they were not at all necessary. There was, for instance, a regiment at Hounslow. Of what use were they? Formerly, when the king was constantly travelling between London and Windsor, a force of that kind might be necessary for his escort; but it was not now required. What occasion was there for cavalry in Kent and on the coast of Essex? It might be said that they were employed to repress smuggling. But they had nothing to do with that service. There were nearly 2,000 seamen, under naval officers, stationed between Sheerness and Beachy head, expressly for that purpose, and round the whole coast there were guard boats and patroles, whose whole time was occupied in preventing the contraband trade. The same remark might be made with regard to the cavalry on the southern coast. Certainly, then, three regiments of cavalry might be reduced, since they were not required for any specific purpose—and appeared to be as little disposable for putting down disaffection in the North, as if they did not exist. If therefore he were to propose the reduction of effective dragoons equal in amount to three regiments, the proposition would not be unreasonable, but as he had before observed, it was not his intention to suggest the reduction of any part of the effective force of the army. But there were in every regiment 15 dismounted men per troop, or 120 per regiment. Ministers had taken credit for economy in dismounting so many men, but he considered that by doing so they were guilty of great extravagance, as those men were useless, either as cavalry or infantry. He was of opinion that 46 dismounted men might be reduced in every regiment, which would still leave enough for every purpose to which dismounted men could be applied. Again, he would have the second majors reduced—that appointment being unknown prior to the year 1796. By diminishing the number of troops in each regiment from eight to six, the reduction would then comprise the 2nd major, two captains, two lieutenants, two cornets, and forty-six privates. This would produce a very considerable saving; and, at the same time, an ample allowance might be made for pensions and
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half-pay. He would, in fact, by his plan, allow more for those purposes than the committee of finances of 1799 proposed; he would wish that the reduced officers should have the most ample allowances; but by putting them on half-pay at present there would be a saving annually of 80,000 l. in the cavalry department. It would, besides, be as efficient for every necessary purpose as it was now. In stating these facts, he was doing that which was disagreeable to himself, because he was speaking in favour of a reduction of those who were connected with the profession to which he himself belonged; and if his suggestions were carried into effect, it would injure many gallant officers and intimate friends of his own. But, however unwilling he might feel to bring the subject forward, there were considerations that operated more strongly with him than the claims of private friendship. If the cavalry was reduced as he had described, the regiments would consist of 6 troops of 53 or 54 men each, and they would have a sufficient number of officers. Three officers were, he conceived, sufficient to take charge of a troop. Before the French war, there were only six troops to each regiment of cavalry, and of these only four were commanded by captains. He wished to state that he contemplated no innovation, but merely to do that which was formerly done, and even carried to a much greater extent than he proposed. He would suggest that it would be expedient and fair towards those officers, who, in consequence of this revision, were placed on the half-pay list, that they should have the preference when vacancies occurred. He now came to the waggon-train, which was of no earthly use. Every man must be convinced of the absolute absurdity of keeping up such a body at present. During the war they were advantageously employed to carry the sick, and to assist the military in their movements. But now, when a regiment scarcely removed once in a twelvemonth, they were evidently of no use. There was a regular complement of these men attached to the Life-Guards, who never left London. By reducing this useless corps, the country would save 10,000 l. a year. The next point on which he meant to touch was the infantry force. By reducing the 2nd majors and by forming the infantry into regiments of 8 companies instead of 10 companies, a saving of between 60,000 l. and 70,000 l. might be

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made. There would then be eight companies of 85 men each, instead of 10 companies of 65 men each in every regiment. The captains and major would still be quite sufficient for the discipline of the regiment. Thus, without impairing the efficiency or endangering the discipline of the army, might this saving be made to the public. If in England the inhabitants were to act as in Scotland (he would not repeat the argument at large,) the infantry too would be found more than sufficient. A considerable reduction might be made in the garrisons such as Portsmouth; but he did not wish to take up the time of the House by entering into details. He next adverted to the engineer corps, of which there were two companies in Canada. The works done by them could as well be done by common labourers, with a regular engineer to direct their labour. Yet there were not fewer than 306 men of this corps employed on a canal in North America. This was the most expensive establishment in the army. The committee of 1609 had found that then, in time of most active war, only 80 of this corps, which consisted then of 500 men, were engaged in foreign service. Colonel Brown was examined by the committee, and stated, being of course favourable to the establishment, that they might all be necessary in cases of emergency. As the officers were men of education it might be impolitic to reduce them, but why retain the complement of men? The corps could at any time be re-organized; and therefore, he was persuaded that in this department a saving of 20,000 l. might be effected. Here then he had already pointed out a saving of 170,000 l. a year. He would ask any member who had done him the honour to attend to him whether, by this saving, the army would be rendered less effective? Would any member say or believe, that, in consequence of such a reduction, it would become less effective against a foreign or a domestic foe? He was happy to have an opportunity of pointing out those things before the army estimates for the year were considered. Wednesday was fixed for that consideration, a day of all the week when there usually was least attendance, and in this week when there was still less chance of the attendance of members. The recruiting service was the next part of the army expenses to which he called attention. The expenses of this service had increased 6,000 l. since
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the last year, which was one-fourth of the whole expenses. He complained that there was a great degree of intricacy added to this part of the service by the present mode of recruiting. There was a necessity for simplifying the mode of recruiting, if economy was at all regarded. At present recruiting companies had their pay-master, field-officers, adjutants, and, in short, a complete staff. This created intricacy in the regimental accounts and rendered it scarcely possible to have any correct reference from the recruiting to the regimental accounts. This was a violation of every principle of economy. Before the year 1798, the commanding officer sent his accounts to the regiment, and district paymasters were appointed only for those recruiting companies whose regiments were abroad. By returning to that practice, and adopting the same arrangement as to the recruiting service as existed now in the guards, an immediate saving of 14,000 l. would be effected, and eventually the saving would amount to 20,000 l. a year. When he was in the guards he had had five or six recruiting companies under his command. Let that practice be now adopted, let an officer take several companies under his command, let the inspecting field officers be got rid of, and the staff, and other expensive establishments of the recruiting service. In page 13 of the estimates was a sum of 1,450 l. for the riding establishment at Pimlico. This establishment had been instituted for the purpose of learning the lance-exercise, but when it ceased to be used for that purpose it was still maintained. In, the general staff-accounts there were 5 assistants to the quartermaster-general. The quartermaster-general was a very important officer in the field, but how was he with his assistants employed now in England? Their only duty was, to receive the route from head-quarters. If they were reduced from five to two, there would be a saving of 2,000 l. There was no proper reason for a lieutenant-general of the staff in Ireland, and the major-generals were too many. In Ireland too there were 8 adjutants-general, double the number in England, and if they were reduced to the number in England, there would be a saving of 3,000 l. As to the colonial staff—in Jamaica, with 4,000 men there was one general officer—in Gibraltar, with 4,000 men, also one—but in the Leeward Islands, with 5,000 men,

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there were five general officers—and in Barbadoes a general officer, with only three companies. In those scattered islands there seemed to be no excuse whatever for having quarter-masters general, as other officers were fully adequate to the duty assigned to the quarter-masters. By reducing them, a major-general in Tobago, and four of the adjutants in the other islands, there would accrue a saving of 4,500 l. A reduction might be advantageously made in St. Helena; and upon the whole the general savings under this head might amount to 9,000 l. The office of paymaster-general, the right hon. gentleman opposite would pardon him for saying so, he considered as one of no great utility. It was only a channel for accounts. The paymaster-general had no control over the expenditure. Here he must remark, that he did not answer for the accuracy of all his statements; but how could he get at information without making assertions, and exciting discussion? He might be wrong in the details, but he was right in the principle. The office was, he was persuaded useless, though he might be made to appear very ridiculous when the right hon. gentleman got up to answer some of his details. The offices of secretary at war and of paymaster came under the observation of the committee of expenditure in 1807. They stated that the responsibility became divided between the two offices. The secretary at war might issue orders for payment through the Bank at once without any paymaster-general. He could refer to the member for the queen's county to confirm his statement, that 60,000 men had been paid in Ireland without any paymaster-general, and no complaint of any defalcation had been heard of. The office was not necessary; it only added to the inconveniency and expense; it was contrary to the rules of economy. For the Ionian islands there were 1,700 l. a year charged. Why was this? He only asked for information. He pledged himself that the office of paymaster-general was unnecessary, and only added to the expense of the army, without affording security to the public. The pensions given upon this establishment were larger than the pensions given to the widows of general officers, who received not more than 120 l. per annum, a sum much less than that given to the widow of an accountant, though it would he believed, be admitted, that the former was obliged to support a
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higher rank. A retired paymaster got a pension of 547 l. a year, and the deputy paymaster, who did all the duty, had but 500 l. a year salary. In the war-office, to which he now requested attention, the charge was 57,880 l. In 1806 when we were at war in every quarter of the globe, a deputy secretary and 112 clerks did the duty of the warr-office, and the expense had been only 30,000 l. Now the number of clerks was increased from 112 to 147, and their salaries were 48,000 l. In 1803 there had been a regulation that the salary of clerks should be from 80 l. a year to 120 l. Yet there were now assistant examiners who had 250 l. each. The office for current accounts was charged at 14,000 l. Accounts were rendered intricate by the variety of heads under which allowances were made, as beer, cleaning arms, &c. If the allowances were consolidated much intricacy and expense might be avoided. There should be a regimental contract for provisions for the troops, and forage for the horses. It would probably be objected that defalcations might be the consequence; but it should be recollected, that the commanding officer of a regiment must always be of the highest respectability; and, besides, the best checks could be applied by submitting his contract to the officers of the regiment. He threw out this only as a suggestion. A saving in the whole commissariat of England might thus be made of 12,000 l. a year. A great part, too, of the expenses of the commissariat in Ireland might be saved, but not the whole, by throwing the management between the officer and the commissary, not between the commissary and the regiment; 20,000 l. would thus be saved in all. He wished next to direct attention to the office for arrear accounts of foreign troops. In 1806, when we were in active war, the expense of this office was only 2,900 l.; now, for winding-up the accounts, it was 2,700 l.; only 200 l. less than when the pay and claims of many foreign soldiers were to be attended to. A great saving might be made by consolidating some of these offices, a saving of not less than 10,000 l. a year. At least there was good ground for inquiring whether this could be done. What objection could there be to a committee, when so much difficulty existed on this subject? There was an increase of 900 l. a year in the quartermaster-general's office since 1808. In the judge-advocate-general's department

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the expense in 1808 was 2,500 l.; now it was 5,800 l. In 1798, the extraordinaries of the army were 6,000,000 l. There were then only two comptrollers, at 1,000 l. each, and 11 others at 2,500 l. In 1819, when the army extraordinaries were but 1,000,000 l. there were three comptrollers, one at 2,000 l., the other two at 1,500 l. each; besides 27 clerks, and the whole expense was 12,500 l., 8,000 l. more than in 1798, when double the business was done. He now came to the Military college; it had been reduced, but further reduction might yet be made. The senior department was useful; but the junior department was quite useless, for young men who left the college early and entered the regular army soon forgot what they learned there. More youths were now educated than it was possible to give commissions to. The committee of finance had commented on the cruelty of thus educating young men for pursuits in which they could not be employed. The commission of military inquiry had recommended the abolition of the lieutenant-governor and paymaster; as unnecessary, Yet they were retained to this hour. The establishment was not only that of a regiment; it was that of an army. Yet what was it but a school for boys? Why should there be a staff? The number now was 290. This number might be reduced to 220, and even that was more than was required. If it were in fact reduced to 220, it would naturally fall to 200, and thus 550 l. a year would he saved. There might too be a diminution of professors. The commissioners of military inquiry had remarked on the lightness of their duties; and he could state himself from experience; having received his education at the college, that some of them attended only 2 hours in the day. Why should school boys have drummers and fifers? From these petty details, it appeared how much saving might really be made. In the several items he had gone through a saving might be made of 450,000 l. a year. He now came to the head of superannuation. There had been regulations requiring that every person superannuated should be, 1, incapacited from service; 2, that he should have served 10 years; and 3, that he should have no more than one-third of his full pay. Yet there was a deputy secretary at war, who had served only 6 years and a half, and who had 1.000 l. a year, in addition to a floating pension of 800 l. a year which he before
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enjoyed. Had they not violated at least the spirit of the act by this proceeding? He had great respect for the name of that individual in consequence of the veneration he felt for a deceased relative of his, but the discharge of a public duty was paramount to any private feeling, and he could not admit the justice or consistency of allowing him 1,800 l. a year. One clerk in the foreign department, who had served only five years, had 450 l. a year superannuation, a larger sum than a general officer had after having passed 30 or 40 years in the service. Many who had shed their blood for their country were starving, while a clerk who had never left London enjoyed three times more than was allowed to them. In the medical department there a physician to the forces who had 600 l. as a retired allowance; and a late member of the medical board who had 1,100 l. a year as physician to Chelsea college, for doing nothing. The commissary general of musters had 600 l. a year, while he had 500 l. as secretary of Chelsea hospital. In the barrack department, two officers who had served only nine years had each 800 l. a year. Did not these appear to be abuses? They might not be so—but was it not due to the country to investigate whether they were or not? When clerks, who never perhaps set their foot out of the country, had their services remunerated so amply, by means perhaps of a secret influence very well understood—and others, possessing the strongest claims on the country, were left almost in a state of starvation, inquiry was imperiously called for. There were also the late commissioners for settling the accounts of the barrack department; viz. the accounts of one great defaulter, general Delancey, and for this service one had a retired allowance of 500 l., another of 600 l. a year! In the barrack department material saving might be made. It was quite unaccountable that barrack-masters should be retained in barracks where no soldiers whatever were quartered. This, among other similar arrangements, occasioned unnecessary expense in the barrack department, which at present cost the country 58,000 l. a year, one half of which he was prepared to show might be very properly dispensed with. For not only were barrack-masters stationed were no soldiers were quartered, but in many places there were two barrack-masters where one would be

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quite sufficient; and this he illustrated by referring to the barrack-masters appointed at Hyde-park, the Tower, and at the Savoy forsooth, as well as at other places within the district of the metropolis. But those unnecessary appointments were only a part of that system upon which ministers acted, being always determined to retain any patronage of which they could contrive to lay hold, and disregarding that economy which they professed a disposition to maintain, but which they would never practice unless through compulsion. Therefore he called upon that House to interfere, and to demand retrenchment in this branch of the public expenditure, or at least to institute an inquiry how far such retrenchment was practicable. Sure he was, that if the House did not take this subject into its own hands, no reduction of expense would take place, and therefore he the more earnestly pressed for the appointment of a committee of inquiry. He was aware, that when any member on his side of the House brought forward a proposition of this nature, it was the habit of ministers to cavil at his statements, or to point out some error in his details. Instead of discussing the principles upon which his proposition rested, ministers, who ought themselves to assist any member, if he required it, in making out his details on a subject of this nature, sought rather to throw ridicule upon some of his statements; conceiving such ridicule a sufficient answer to his arguments or principles, however unobjectionable. The House too was disposed to listen with more attention to the statements of ministers, naturally supposing them more accurately informed, upon questions connected with the public expenditure. Of this circumstance ministers were fully aware, and therefore apt too often to avail themselves of it to endeavour to throw dust in the eyes of the House, as well as in those of the public. But such expedients could not serve their purpose in the judgment of those who were capable of just discrimination. He concluded with moving, "That a select committee be appointed to examine into the whole military expenditure of the country, and to report their opinion thereon to the House."
Mr. Longexpressed his surprise, that the gallant officer should say, the paymaster general was no public accountant.
Colonel Daviesdenied that he had made any such statement.
Mr. Longobserved, that if the gallant officer would take the trouble of inquiring, he would find that the paymaster general was one of the greatest public accountants in the country.
Colonel Daviesagain denied the statement imputed to him by the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Longregretted his misconception of the gallant officer's words, assuring him that he had no disposition whatever to misinterpret any hon. member. But he was quite certain, that if the gallant officer would take the trouble of seeking accurate information, or would call at the office, and judge for himself, he would be convinced of his mistake in supposing that the business of the paymaster general's department could be consistently transferred to the war-office. The business of the paymaster-general's department was, indeed, of a very onerous description. The duties which were performed there were extremely various; the issue of the half-pay alone required considerable time and attention, especially in consequence of the arrangement for making that payment quarterly instead of half-yearly, as was the former custom. But the settlement of the different accounts in that department was attended with a great deal of trouble. Upon his (Mr. L.'s) introduction to this office, he found there was an arrear of unsettled accounts for no less than 25 years, nay since Mr. Burke's arrangement was adopted; and he had the satisfaction to say that all those accounts were now adjusted, and passed to the commission for auditing public accounts. This discharge of business accounted for the difference between the expence of the paymaster-general's department at the present day, compared with the period referred to by the gallant officer. But he would venture to say, that if the gallant officer would inquire and compare the present expense of this department with that incurred during the war, he would find that a greater reduction had taken place in that office since the conclusion of the peace, than in any other office concerned in the superintendence of the public expenditure. With regard to the superannuated allowances adverted to by the gallant officer, in no instance did any of those allowances exceed the amount settled by statute, while some of them fell short of that amount, as he (Mr. Long) showed by quoting the cases. When he became paymaster general, he found

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several sinecures in that office, created by the habit of doing duty by deputy, but to this system he put an end, by calling upon every individual connected with the office to perform his duty himself, and thus the system of sinecures was abolished in that office. There were, indeed, no offices under the control of the paymaster-general at present discharged by deputy, with the exception of that of the pay-master of Malta, and two others, which, for adequate reasons it was found necessary to tolerate. He had, indeed, on the whole, no reason to apprehend, that if the conduct of the department over which he had the honour to preside were duly considered, any candid man would find cause to complain of its proceedings or system.
Colonel Daviesthought there was cause to complain that the public accountants connected with the right hon. gentleman's department were not sufficiently under the control of that department.
Mr. Longobserved, that the power of the office alluded to was amply sufficient for any effective purpose of control upon the conduct of every individual connected with the department.
Lord Palmerstonobserved, that he should not, upon the present occasion, anticipate the discussion of the army estimates which were so soon to be brought under the consideration of the House, but he thought it proper to make some remarks upon the statements or calculations of the gallant officer, in which, however, he should be as brief as possible. The gallant officer's animadversions upon the conduct of the several finance committees he should leave to other and more competent persons to answer; merely saying, that in his opinion those committees had performed their important duties with great zeal and ability. But with respect to the gallant officer's calculations upon our military expenditure, he must say, that he could not place much reliance upon their accuracy, from a recollection of the extreme erroneousness of the hon. officer's calculations on the same subject upon a former occasion. Upon the increase of our military establishment since the last year, which naturally gave vise to an increase of expenditure, he did not think it necessary to make any reply to the gallant officer, as the House and the country were fully aware of the reasons connected with our internal situation
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which called for that increase. The gallant officer had maintained, that by a different modification of the existing establishment of the army, a saving might he made of no less than 400,000 l. per annum. But there were, upon a proposition of this nature, two questions to be considered; the first, whether any pecuniary saving would result from its adoption; and the second which he submitted was much more important, namely whether the proposed modification would tend to weaken or diminish the efficiency of that important arm of the national strength, the military force. The House would, he had no doubt, proceed with great caution in determining upon these questions. But as to the expense of the army, the gallant officer had thought proper to argue, that if the public spirit of England had been equal to that of Scotland, there would have been no occasion from the recent troubles to make any addition to our regular army. To this observation, however, he would only reply by referring to the spirited conduct of the English yeomanry in maintaining the public peace and protecting their own property throughout the several districts when any disturbances took place or were apprehended. That conduct was indeed notoriously such as to prove the injustice of the gallant officers animadversion; and this he felt himself bound to say, while he was quite ready to bear testimony to the gallantry and public spirit of the yeomanry of Scotland. With respect to the gallant officer's recommendation to discharge the dismounted men belonging to each troop of cavalry, he (lord P.) deprecated the idea, observing that these men were so dismounted with a view to economy, while they were still retained in each regiment with a view to maintain its efficiency. But if the present dismounted men were really discharged, he should not be surprised to find the gallant officer meet that proceeding by requiring that some more of the men should be dismounted, for whose discharge he might afterwards call, and so on, prosecuting his peculiar views of public economy, until each regiment should be reduced to a skeleton,—But neither the peculiar views of the gallant officer, nor those of any other individual would, he trusted, be found to prevail in that House against the tried advantages of the present system. The gallant officer complained not only of the amount but of the distribution of the cavalry. He had asked why

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there was to be a regiment of cavalry stationed for instance at such a place as Hounslow. Was not the hon. member aware that at that place there was a necessity of having some effective force for the preservation of the peace of the metropolis, and especially at times of danger, such as had lately occurred?—But a part of the cavalry was distributed, according to the hon. member, in places where its service, it was said, could not be necessary, such as along the coast. Now services on the coast were necessary to check the contraband trade which was attempted to be carried on; for, when the smuggler had once landed his goods on the coast, it was only by the assistance of cavalry troops that seizures could be made. There was however, scarcely any part of our military organization to which the gallant officer did not object. According to his judgment there were too many officers both in the cavalry and the infantry, although all those officers were by very high authority deemed quite necessary to the maintenance of discipline, and of an efficient army, If a committee such as that proposed were appointed, every member of it might have his own speculative opinions upon the subject, all differing from one another. When one person said he would have one major to a regiment instead of two, and would reduce two captains, two lieutenants, and two cornets in each regiment, or stated any other speculative opinions of the same sort, these were grounds on which a House of Commons would not act. The gallant officer also objected to the waggon corps, although if we had not this corps it would be difficult to say by what means the removal of the different regiments ought to be effected. Was it by obliging the cavalry horses to draw Waggons, for which they were not fitted, or by hiring farmers horses, which would not be always in readiness on emergencies? Those means, it was obvious, could hot be adequate to the removal of an effective force. But the gallant officer required on the whole such a reduction of the army as must, if his views were complied with, expose the country to the most serious embarrassment in the event of war. When the army was to be reduced in time of peace, they were not to consider the immediate saving only which would arise from that reduction, but were to remember that the establishment still kept up was a nucleus for the reformation of
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the army, whenever war should again render it necessary. On the subject of half-pay, pensions, &c, all he should say was, that the hon. gentleman had made a very inaccurate calculation of the saving that might be accomplished in that department of the expenditure. As to the engineer corps, which the hon. gentleman wished to be reduced, he might observe that proper officers for these corps were not easily obtained. It was also difficult to procure men for them, oh account of the mechanical skill which it was necessary they should possess. These men were always most usefully employed, and therefore he conceived that their reduction would be a serious inconvenience. With regard to all these staff-corps, which required great skill and experience on the part of both officers and men, it was evident that they could not be suddenly re-established; and therefore, unless a sufficient number, both of officers and men, were retained, the service might be exposed to great danger as well as inconvenience. The House would recollect that what the hon. gentleman had just been pressing respecting the guards, was just what Mr. Burke had taken so much pains to do away with. The guards received a gross sum for all their charges, and out of that sum they had to defray the expenses of their own recruiting, and of their hospitals, which in the rest of the army were paid under a separate head of charge. If it was not proper to recur to the other parts of that system which Mr. Burke had abolished from the whole army, it surely was not proper to revert to that part of it only which regulated the charges of the recruiting service. He conceived that the present system, by which officers on the recruiting service, received draughts from the public officer of the district, was more convenient than that which the hon. gentleman proposed. Indeed no arrangement had given more general satisfaction than that of detaching the expenses of recruiting districts from the general charges. If the system of the hon. member were introduced, this accounts of every regiment in the service would be necessary before the recruiting accounts could be regulated; and how much more simple and more easily reduced to practice was what was now adopted. The riding establishment at Pimlico seemed useless to the hon. member, but why was it founded? For a most excellent purpose: to introduce a uniform-

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ity of system through the cavalry of the kingdom, and. the experience of the carvalry evinced its utility. Men were sent from each regiment of cavalry, in order to learn the system; and they afterwards became masters and teachers of it to their awn regiments. Thus a very great benefit was obtained, and our cavalry would be saved from any repetition of the sneer; of a foreign officer in other times, namely, that he should think the British, cavalry very efficient, if they knew how to ride. In objecting to the permanent assistants in the quarter-master general's department, he could not help saying that the gallant officer seemed not aware of the motive or importance of that description of officers, and when he animadverted upon the number of staff officers employed in Ireland, compared to that in this country, he evidently appeared forgetful of the different situation of our force in both countries. In Ireland it was so subdivided and scattered, that a greater number of staff officers became obviously necessary, and a similar distribution of the army accounted for the number of staff officers in the windward and leeward islands, to which the gallant officer also objected. In fact, every one of those officers was governor of the, island, to which he was appointed as well as commander of the forces; and the greatest convenience had been found to result from that arrangement. Making allowance, therefore, for all the errors both in the details and the principles of the hon. gentleman, he suspected that, even if the proposed alteration were, made in the staff department, the saving would fall very far short of 4,00,000 l. His right hon. friend had satisfactorily accounted for the conduct, and expense of the paymaster-general's department; and as to the War office, he could state and show, that any increase in the expense of that establishment was occasioned by an immense accumulation of accounts from former years many of which were yet unsettled, a though every possible exertion was making, to promote their adjustment. A commutation with the soldiers for certain allowances, as the gallant officer recommended, he thought quite impracticable, from the fluctuating price of the articles; alluded to, and the uncertain movements of the army; as such commutation might be too much in certain cases, or operate in others to reduce the soldiers pay, which, he believed, no one in that House
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or the country was disposed to do. A soldier might cost more in one year than another, because fie might be more days on march, and provisions might be higher; and therefore to strike a balance by the expenses of one year might either injure the man by giving him too small an allowance, or, by giving him a fractional sum too much, might swell the amount to the public very considerably. The truth of this would appear on looking at the report of the committee of finance, in which it was stated that a very trifling allowance added to each man's pay would produce an increase of 80,000 l. a year in the whole army. But to return to the War office; the gallant, officer had particularly, dwelt upon the difference of expense in that establishment between the year 1806 and the present time. In 1806 the clerks were 112 in number and their salaries amounted to 30,000 l.; while in 1819 their number, was 148, and, their, salaries amounted nearly to 50,000 l. The comparatively small expense, however, in former years, was owing merely to the hope of the government, that the national expense would be reduced by the cessation of war, and to its, disinclination to add to the public expenditure by increasing the establishment at this office. But what had been the consequence of this policy?—Why that the accounts at the War office had accumulated to such an extent, that an increased establishment of clerks became imperiously necessary. The existing establishment was accordingly made, and through its operation in 1816, no less than 1,286 accounts of former years were settled, while, but a very few accounts of that year, were left unsettled. But the settlement of the arrear of accounts was not yet complete, and until complete no reduction of clerks could be reasonably looked for in this department. In consequence of the accounts which had been settled with agents, several balances had been recovered, and many more were to be expected, so that the public purse would derive very material profit from the temporary advance to the War office for the payment of the clerks employed in settling these accounts; although the hon. gentleman seemed to think that the best way would be to pass a wet sponge over them. He (lord Palmerston) must also maintain against the objections, of the gallant officer, that the commissariat was one of the most useful departments of the army, by serving to secure

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a proper supply of subsistence for the troops. He believed, that no other arrangement could be made which would so effectually combine economy with regularity of supply. It certainly appeared to him that, when supply was provided by contract, it was likely to be cheaper, better, and more regular, than if each regiment were to provide its own supply.—The honourable gentleman Observed that the expence of the quarter-master-general's department had increased. He (lord Palmerston) thought it was as nearly as possible at what it had been in 1792, With the exception of the expense of the lithographic press, which had been introduced since that period, with the usefulness of which invention the House was well acquainted, and which had, in effect, produced a great saving in the War-office as well as in that of the quarter-master-general. With regard to the Comptroller's office, it was also said, that an increase had taken place; but the House should always bear in mind that the examination of accounts Could never end with the war; nor could the auditing department cease with the services to which they belonged. These were departments of considerable utility, and could not be altered without disadvantage to the country. The Military college was next touched on by the hon. member. It was admitted, that great reductions had been made in the Military college, but it seemed that these reductions were not sufficient to satisfy the hon. gentleman. The House would see that arrangements had been made to consolidating the senior and the junior departments of that establishment from the 24th of June next; so that next year the whole Would merge into one department, Several professors were to be reduced, and the annual expenditure of the College would not exceed the sum of 18 or 19,000 l. The number of cadets Was only 400, and the course of study Was four years; and the number of vacancies, from January, 1818, to January, 1819, was 127; and every year the greatest number of cadets that might become disposable were not more than might fairly be allowed. He was sure the House would not think that the number of cadets which it was proposed to admit every year, say seven, was too great for the other parts of ear military establishment. The hon. gentleman complained of ushers being employed, and contended that they were not a necessary part of a military establishment; but whether
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they were Called ushers, or were called by a military name, their services were necessary for the purpose of preserving discipline. By the new arrangement, each professor would have to attend six hours every day in summer, and five hours every day in winter; and this, he thought, was as much as much as could be required. The hon. member was of opinion that the senior department was necessary, but that the junior was not, and that it was of no use to instruct officers in the principle of their profession before they went into the army, because they would very soon forget all they had learned. He (lord Palmerston) was of a different opinion. He hoped the hon. gentleman would confirm that opinion by his own experience, and that he would riot say he had so rapidly forgot all he had learned in the course of his military education. The majority of the young men educated at the college, had proved by their conduct in the field, the great advantages which the army and the country derived from this establishment The highest military authorities in the country had considered this establishment essentially necessary to the welfare of the army. If it were admitted that a regular army Ought to be kept up, it was equally necessary that it should be a good regular army and a good regular army could only be obtained by instructing officers in the theory of their profession. The effect of discontinuing this establishment would be to drive these young men to other quarters, and as they would have no means of defraying the expenses of a private education, they would probably be compelled to seek for instruction in German or French establishments, at that critical period of their lives when the impressions they received were calculated to decide the Character of the future man. He regretted that he did not observe a gallant officer in his place, who seldom omitted an opportunity of deprecating the introduction of foreign officers and every assimilation to foreign customs; in our troops, for he was persuaded that he would have concurred with him in the propriety of giving to our military youth the advantage of a British education. For his own part, he wished to see the British soldier with a British character, with British habits, with a British education, and with as mille as possible of any thing foreign. An annual sum was voted by the House for the education of the Catholic clergy in Ire-

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land; and be would ask, whether the army did not possess as strong claims upon the country, and whether the same considerations which dictated that measure, slid not apply with equal or greater force to the establishment of the Military college? With respect to the retired allowances to which the hon. gentleman had objected, they had been granted in the year 1809, and could not therefore militate against the act regulating those allowances, which did not pass till the year 1811. He had now gone through most of the points urged by the hon. gentleman, and he contended that he had laid no parliamentary ground for inquiry. Nothing was more easy than to argue for the expediency of entering into a committee of inquiry. If the question was one generally understood, it was then contended that there could be no objection to granting a committee; if, on the other hand, it involved considerable difficulty, it was argued that so much intricacy of detail necessarily demanded a committee, of inquiry. On the subject of the horn gentleman's motion, however, not only committees, but commissions had been granted, and commissioners as industrious and as independent as any, whom the hon. gentleman could appoint, had been engaged for several years in the laborious, unremitted, investigation of the points connected with this motion. In the years 1817, 1818, and 1819, the House had appointed committees of its own to inquire into the public expenditure, of which expenditure the army formed a considerable part. No doubt the hon. member expected that if this; committee were granted he should be able to detect many a venerable abuse, and at every turn of the spade to bring up some mutilated remains of violated economy; but even, if the House were to accede to his motion, be would find himself anticipated; the ground was already dug, and nothing remained to reward the hon. gentleman's industry. The hon. gentleman had alluded to the distresses and financial embarrassments of the country. He (lord Palmerston} would be the last man to speak of those distresses in a slighting manner; but in considering the amount of our burdens we ought not to forget under what circumstances those difficulties had been incurred. Engaged in an arduous struggle, single-handed and unaided, not only against all the powers of Europe but with the confederated forces of the civilized
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world, our object was not merely military glary—not the temptation of territorial acquisition—not even what might be considered a more justifiable object, the assertion of violated rights and the vindication of national honour, but we were contending for our very existence as an independent nation When the political horizon was thus clouded, when no human foresight could point out from what quarter relief was to be expected, when the utmost effort of national energy was not to despair, he would put to the hon. gentleman whether, if at that period it could have been shown that Europe might be delivered from its thralldom, but that this cantingent good must be purchased at the price of a long and patient endurance of our domestic burthens, we should not have accepted the conditions with gratitude. He lamented as deeply as the hon. gentleman the burthens of the country, but it should be recollected that they were the price which we bad agreed to pay for our freedom and independence.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that his hon. friend's motion had been much misrepresented by the noble lord, and that the utmost, extent of his proposition went only to show, that if the weight of expenditure which bore down the people did not admit of complete alleviation, it might at least be rendered more tolerable. But if any one had only heard the latter part of the noble lord's speech, he would be inclined to think his hon. and gallant, friend was demanding some sacrifice, attended with shame, if not with more ruinous consequences. Now, nothing was more contrary to his intention he only Called for a committee of inquiry, and that after entering into such a detail as must impress every, man with the necessity for its appointment. In one particular, he could not agree with his hon. friend; he alluded to that part of his speech, in which he proposed to lessen the number of the cavalry establishment. He thought it advisable to preserve the skeleton of this establishment by keeping up a number of dismounted cavalry, to provide for any future occasion, in which it might be necessary to recur to it. Generally, however, be, thought the House and the country were deeply indebted to his gallant friend for the laborious and useful duty he had undertaken and so very ably discharged. And if after showing even a probability pf saving several hundred thousand pounds a year to the country

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no inquiry were allowed, he could scarcely think the country ought to be satisfied. The noble lord had said that nothing was more easy than to establish a case for a committee of inquiry, but gentlemen who had any experience in this House, must be aware that although it was very easy to call for a committee of inquiry, nothing was more difficult than to obtain it. The strongest case for inquiry might be made out, but it was overturned at once by that simple receipt, a majority of the House of Commons. The noble lord had made a very brilliant speech, and he could afford to do it, for he made but one speech a year, for which he was rewarded by the possession of one of the richest offices in the gift of the Crown, and he might therefore fairly be considered the best paid orator of the age. The speech was not the worse for having been delivered after due consideration, and he was not at all disposed to detract from its brilliance. As to the merit of the reasonings, the noble lord himself appeared ready to abandon his pretensions, for he admitted that his horn friend had established a case for a committee of inquiry. He had but little expectation that the motion would be acceded to, for when reduction was proposed, whether a riding-house, a general, or a baron of exchequer were the subject of inquiry, success in that House was equally hopeless. Under every view of the case, he considered full and satisfactory grounds had been offered for the appointment of a committee, and he should therefore support the motion.
Sir Henry Parnellsaid, as the expenditure of the army amounted to nearly seven millions annually it became the House to consider whether or not some saving might not be effected, or, at all events, whether a committee should not be appointed to ascertain if it could be effected. An hon. friend of his had said, the noble lord was well paid for making an annual speech, but his hon. friend laid overrated the noble lord's deserts, for last year he made no speech; and on the army estimates being brought-down, referred the House merely to the dry details. The civil offices in the army department were, now in the fifth year of peace, greater than after the first four years of the last war. In the year 1792 one department cost 813 l.; and in the year 1819 it had increased to 7,453 l. In the department of the secretary at war, the expenditure was the same in 1796 as it
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was now, and amounted to about 51,000 l. In that of the paymaster of the forces, an increase bad taken place of nearly 5,000 l.; the amount being in l796, 19,000 l.; and in 1819, 24,OOO l; When it was considered in addition to those circumstances, that the revenue of the country has fallen off nearly fifteen hundred thousand pounds, he thought it not too much to call for some inquiry.
Colonel Davies,in reply said that the statements he had made, and the arguments which he bad drawn from them, had been only met by the assertions of the hoble lord, which, however convincing or satisfactory to the House of Commons, could not be so to the country in general; With respect to the commission of military inquiry to which reference had been made by the noble lord, it had existed only during war. After entering into a recapitulation of the various topics he had urged in his opening speech he concluded by expressing his conviction that if the House would not be thought wholly inattentive to the interests of the country, they would promote an inquiry, which was calculated to effect so large a saving in the public expenditure.
Colonel Grantbegged to offer some observations to the House as a military man. He objected to any decrease of the cavalry establishment, and contended that nothing was more useful than to keep up a large skeleton of officers and non-commissioned officers, who might be ready for active service upon future emergencies. In alluding to the forge-carts, which had been objected to on the ground of unnecessary expenditure, be observed, that they were on many occasions of the greatest service, and that much distress had been experienced from the want of them in the retreat of sir John Moore from Corunna. Adverting to the Tiding school, and to the number of staff employed he contended that they were both indispensable.
Mr. Ellicesaid, he merely rose to state the grounds on which he meant to support the hon. member's motion for inquiry. To the various details of the question, whether regarding cavalry or infantry, he professed himself incompetent; but it was his wish to look a little beyond those details; and he thought that some inquiry ought to be made as to the necessity of keeping up the unheard-of military force now established in this country in a time of peace. He thought, too, that some

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inquiry ought to be made into the ability of the colonies to support the troops stationed abroad; and that it would be a question for the consideration of the House, how far it was desirable to keep those colonies, which required a large military force for their protection. There was also another motive why he voted in favour of the motion—we had recently added considerably to our military force for local purposes; he thought it necessary to inquire how far the continuance of that additional force was necessary, at a time too, when the country was borne down by a load of debt and taxation. Unless some member of administration should more fully enter into detail on this subject, he should vote for the motion of the gallant colonel, in the event of his dividing the House.
Colonel Daviesrose to explain. It had never been his intention, in his allusion to the forge carts, to maintain that they were not necessary on foreign service. The gallant colonel had completely misunderstood him in supposing he considered this expense as unnecessary one on actual service.
The House divided: Ayes, 45; Noes, 125: Majority against the Motion, 80.

List of the Minority

Allan, J. H.

Newport, sir J.

Atthorp, lord

Ord, W.

Bary, lord

O'Callaghan, J.

Barrett, S.

Palmer, F.

Barham, J.F. jun.

Powers R.

Bright, H.

Parnell, sir H.

Calvert, C.

Parnell, W.

Carter, T.

Pryce, R.

Cromptbn, Sam.

Ramsden, J. C.

De Crespigny, sir W.

Robinson, sir G.

Dundas.T.

Smithy A.

Dundas, H. L.

Smith, Wm

Grenfell, Pascoe

Smith, Samuel

Qurney, R. H.

Sefton, lord

Haldimand W.

Sykes, D.

Heron, sir R.

Spurrier, C. H.

Harbord, hon. E.

Wood, alderman

Kennedy T.

Webb. E.

Lushington, Dr.

Whitbread, W. H.

Millbank, Mark

Whitbread W. H.

Maxwell, W.

TELLERS.

Milton, lord

Daivies, col.

Monck, J. B.

Ellice, Edw.

COMMERCIAL DISTRESS—PETITION FROM BIRMINGHAM.
Lord Calthorperose to present a petition from the merchants and manufacturers of Birmingham, and observed, that its object was to induce their lordships to inquire into the distress of which the petitioners complained, and with which they were most grievously afflicted. The petitioners were, highly respectable persons, who would not come forward with frivolous complaints. They did not speak the language of unmanly despondency, but, conscious that the trade and manufactures of the country were in a state of great depression, they were anxious to see them restored to their wonted prosperity and vigour; or, if there existed any obstruction to that restoration, that its cause should be ascertained. Although he did not expect that any such inquiry would remedy the distress of which the petitioners complained, he thought the wish they expressed deserved the serious attention of their lordships. This petition spoke the language of a considerable portion of the manufacturing interest of the country; and it appeared to him that it would be but showing a fair concession to the opinion of such persons, and a just sympathy with the existing distress, if their lordships went into an inquiry, even though they should expect no advantageous result from it, and though they believed the evil to be one which admitted of no parliamentary remedy.

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On these grounds he was persuaded that the conciliatory disposition of their lordships would induce them to listen to the prayer of the petitioners, and that they would proceed to investigate the cause of the commercial distress, with the view of ascertaining whether they possessed the means of relief, and whether the subject was one fit for legislation. As he had reason to hope that his majesty's ministers would concur in this view, he should be happy if they took up the investigation themselves. He had perfect confidence in their intentions, and would be most happy to leave the subject entirely with them. For the present, therefore, he would make no mention relative to this petition, except that it do lie on the table.
The Marquis of Lansdowne,before he offered any observations on the subject of the petition, wished to ask the noble lord opposite, whether it was his intention to propose to refer it to a committee, or to propose any other mode of inquiry into the distress to which it referred?
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he had no objection to answer the question of the noble marquis. His noble friend had alluded to the supposed intention of instituting an inquiry in another place, and it might be a question whether a simultaneous inquiry on another branch of the evil complained of would be advisable. To such a proceeding, with proper limitations, he could have no objection; and were a motion of that nature made by the noble marquis, or any other of the noble lords on that side of the House, he should not oppose it, but would take the opportunity of stating what his view and that of his majesty's government on the subject was. Thus far he was desirous to go to satisfy the public anxiety. No advantage, he was convinced, could be gained from a general investigation, and he was most desirous that no misconception should take place on the subject. While he stated this much, he must at the same time observe, that he did not intend to make any proposition on the part of the executive government. He did not think that the executive government ought to come down and propose to institute an inquiry on a subject of this kind, unless they were prepared with a cure, or distinctly saw some remedy which it would be in the power of parliament to apply. As he had said, however, he would make no objection to any inquiry which might
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be proposed by any other noble lord, provided it should be properly limited. With regard to the petitioners, he wished to bear testimony to what the noble lord who had presented the petition had said of the respectability of their character, as well as to the general good conduct of the people of Birmingham. The great mass of the population of that town had behaved with a patience and loyalty which, when they had any claim to make, must certainly entitle them to every proper indulgence on the part of their lordships, and particularly to the indulgence they now asked—that of having the opportunity of fully explaining the grievances of which they complained, with the view of obtaining a remedy.
The Marquis of Lansdowneconcurred in what had been said respecting the petition, which he regarded as fully meriting the character of the noble lord who presented it and the noble earl opposite had given it. In suitable language it stated the situation of the country and of the petitioners; it did not attempt to point out any remedy, but called upon their lordships to consider the subject. To such an appeal he was confident their lordships would listen. He had hoped that the noble earl opposite would have thought proper to recommend the instituting, either in or out of that House, such an inquiry as might lead at least to an explanation of the causes of the present distress; and, if no immediate remedy could be applied, to show the grounds on which it would be necessary that the evil the country was now suffering ought to be longer endured. Being satisfied that no such inquiry could be usefully instituted, without the concurrence of the executive government with the two Houses of Parliament, he was most desirous that the subject should be taken up by his majesty's ministers; but having ascertained that neither the noble earl opposite, nor any of his colleagues, entertained any such intention, and understanding also that the noble lord who presented the petition did not mean himself to call for any farther proceeding, he should certainly consider it his duty to submit to their lordships a motion for instituting an inquiry; but he could not think it advisable to propose such an inquiry upon that extensive and complicated scale which an investigation of the situation of the country in all the branches of its distress would require. He was satisfied that the inquiry

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would be likely to prove most advantageous, if limited to some practical points, Ho should therefore, on some subsequent day, propose the appointment of a committee to investigate only the means of extending the foreign trade of the country, He was far from thinking that such an inquiry as be intended to propose would be sufficient to relieve the executive government and parliament from searching to the bottom the causes of the other evils under which the country suffered, in order to remove them, if possible, or to prove to his majesty's subjects that the remedy was not in their power. He was afraid his shoulders would not be sufficiently strong to bear the burthen of instituting a more extensive inquiry; and on that account, as well as the utility of confining the investigation to a single object, he wished to limit it in the manner be had stated. He should, on Friday see night, take the opportunity of moving the appointment of a committee.
The Earl of Liverpooldeclared, that to the noble marquis's motion, limited as he meant to propose it, he had no objection. When the proposition for appointing a committee should be made, he would state his view of the subject, but certainly not with any intention of opposing it. What it might then be proper to do would be a subject for future consideration. In the mean time, he should not object to the petition being referred to a committee.
Earl Grosvenorunderstood the motion proposed to be brought forward by the noble marquis to be limited to the manufacturing interest, but he hoped that an inquiry into the agricultural distress would not be neglected.
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that the notice applied only to foreign trade. He approved of the limitation of the inquiry; but as, in the observations be intended to make on the motion, he would take a general view of the state of our trade, it would be impossible for him to do so without entering into a consideration of the situation of the agriculture of the country. At the same time be was fully satisfied that there was no necessity for rendering the inquiry more extensive than the noble marquis proposed to make it. That noble lord had most properly limited his notice to a single object, and it would be for the consideration of the House whether they would afterwards go into any other inquiry.
The Marquis of Lansdownewas aware that his motion would not prevent any noble lord from proposing to extend the powers of the committee, or to institute further investigations; but if any inquiries were to be instituted, he thought it most desirable that they should be limited to distinct points. He was afraid that, if their lordships embarked in a general investigation, a door would be opened for the admission of every theory, and that they would finally be able to come to no conclusion; whereas, by confining the inquiry to one branch of the existing distress, there was a chance of attaining to something like a practical result.
Earl Grosvenorthought the observations of his noble friend very proper. He was only anxious that it should not appear to the country that their lordships were disposed to devote their attention to the manufacturing or trading distress only.
The Earl of Lauderdalethought it impossible for their lordships, with so many petitions on their table, to neglect taking notice of the agricultural distress; but what he chiefly rose for was, to implore their lordships not to enter into an investigation of the general state of the country. If they went to such an inquiry, the number of witnesses, and facts of all sorts, which would be brought forward, would only render an accurate conclusion impracticable, and open a door to fresh discussions and disputes. He therefore approved of the manner in which his noble friend had limited his motion; but he also thought with him that the executive government ought at the same time to search with activity for the means of applying a remedy to the distress. One of the greatest uses of parliament was the prosecution of distinct branches of inquiry of the nature of that to which the committee was proposed to be limited; but this did not relieve the executive government from the performance of their duty.
The Earl of Darnleythought it would be better if no question respecting the distress of the agricultural interest were brought forward, for he did not conceive that any remedy could be applied to the evil. The petitions of the numerous individuals before the House deserved every consideration; but he was afraid a cure for their distress could not be easily found. He thought it his duty to take the earliest opportunity of stating his opinion on the subject.
Lord Erskinediffered in opinion with

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his noble friend who had just spoken. He thought a remedy for the agricultural distress was much more easily to be found than their lordships appeared to imagine. He, however, agreed in the propriety of; making the inquiries into the commercial and agricultural distress distinct and separate. He should, perhaps, take an opportunity of bringing the latter subject; under their lordships consideration, and would then explain the grounds on which he was of opinion that the application of a remedy to agricultural distress was easy and simple.
The Earl of Donoughmorewas sorry that government appeared to have thrown the consideration of the distressed state of the country off their own shoulders, because he was convinced that any proposition on the subject would come with more prospect of success, from minister, than from the side of the House: on which he stood; and he hoped he might be allowed to say, that to do so would be nothing more than their duty. Could they possibly have a more important duty than that of attending to the distress of; the country? With all the details of that distress his majesty's ministers must of necessity be better acquainted than any other individuals in parliament. They must have before them facts, the knowledge of which no other persons could obtain. A proposition brought forward by them would be certain of having effect; while, from the side of the House on which he sat, it was almost sure of a negative.
The Earl of Liverpoolfelt it impossible, after what had fallen from the noble earl who spoke last, not to trouble their lordships with a few words. He had not stood in the way of the discussion of the state of the country, for their lordships would recollect him to have stated, that when the proposition of the noble marquis should be brought, he would not confine himself to a silent vote in its support, but should on that day be prepared to enter into, not a limited discussion, but into the consideration of every subject connected with the motion. Here he would have wished that the matter had been allowed to rest; but the noble lord had supposed that, because his majesty's ministers did not come to parliament with a proposition on the part of the executive government, they neglected their duty. He agreed with the noble lord that it was their duty at all times, and
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more particularly at a time like the present, to inquire into the state of the country; and he was ready to admit, that if they had not inquired they had neglected their duty. But did it follow that they had been guilty of such negligence because no proposition had been submitted to their lordships? Without any disrespect to that or to the other House of Parliament, he might say that the executive government would have done wrong in making an appeal to them the first step on such an occasion. Before any proposition was made by the executive government to parliament, it was necessary that ministers should be prepared to state whether they had any cure to offer, and what remedies might or might not be applied. No noble lord was, however, precluded from taking up the subject; but, before his majesty's ministers assumed that office, they ought to be able to make some precise proposition, and to say distinctly what was most fit to be done. He would not assert that something might not and ought not to be done, but this he would say, that in political economy far more danger was to be apprehended from doing too much than from not interfering at all. A reference to the Statute-book would show, that attempts to cure supposed evils had been the cause of great mischief. What their lordships had to complain of was, not that in past ages the legislature had done too little, but that, doubtless with the best intentions, too much had been done. It was fit, therefore, that their lordships should go into the inquiry with these considerations impressed on their minds, and give that deliberation to the subject which its importance required. Inconsiderate propositions, in such cases, from individuals, were dangerous, but if brought forward by the executive government, they became ten times more dangerous.
Earl Grosvenorwas far from proposing that agricultural distress should make a part of the inquiry about to be brought forward, and he was indeed far from supposing that any good could be done by the inquiry: that is, that any effectual remedy would be found by the committee. It was, however, proper that those who suffered so severely should have their prayer for inquiry satisfied. In his opinion, there was only one remedy for the public distress, and that was the application of the strictest economy to every part of the public expenditure; and he must say that,

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from all he had yet seen, he was almost in a state of despair as to the application of this effectual remedy. From what was every day passing, it was impossible for him to believe that ministers were earnest in the prosecution of that economy which could alone give prosperity to the country.
The petition was laid on the table, and their lordships were orderd to be summoned for Friday se'nnight.

EMPLOYMENT FOR THE POOR.
Earl Stanhope*rose and said:—My lords;—In rising to submit to your lordships the motion of which I gave notice some days ago, I am influenced solely by a sense of public duty; and I am deeply impressed with the extreme importance of the subject to which I am anxious to call your attention, that of providing employment for the poor. In circumstances like the present, of extraordinary difficulty and danger, the consideration of this subject is perhaps of all others the most interesting and important, as we know that in almost every part of the country, the want of employment for the poor has produced severe distress; and as we knew also, that the discontent of those who suffer from that distress, has in some parts of the country assumed even the character of disaffection. The first and most urgent duty which your lordships had to discharge, was, to repress the machinations of the disaffected, when they tended to the subversion of that ancient and excellent constitution which has so long been the happiness and honour of this nation, and has so long secured its liberties and welfare. But your lordships have another duty to perform—a duty most important in itself, and of which the performance will be most beneficial to your country, and most honourable to yourselves; I mean the duty of inquiring, whence has arisen that calamitous situation of public affairs, which no man can contemplate without apprehension and alarm;—what have been the causes, and what might be the remedy, of that great and general distress which has produced such great and general discontent.
When the house is in flames, the first duty of the inhabitants is to extinguish the conflagration; but they will not suppose themselves to be secure in future from the
* From the original edition, printed, for J. Harding, St. James's-street.
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danger, as long as the cause which produced it still continue to operate; nor will they suppose that they can prevent its recurrence by providing themselves with fire-engines and buckets. There is no maxim more true in itself, none perhaps more important in its application, than that of lord Bacon, that in order to allay sedition, it is necessary to expel the matter of sedition. If this should not be done, let not your lordships delude yourselves with the expectation that any measures of coercion and restriction which you have adopted, or may hereafter execute, would be sufficient to secure the internal peace and tranquillity of the country, or that you could rely for protection upon any increase which you have made, or could make, to your military force. The principal matter of sedition is at present public distress. I am aware that discontent has been found to exist in places, and among persons, that have not considerably suffered from distress; but it is however, true, and is confessed on all sides, that if such distress had not existed, the machinations which have been used to excite disaffection, could not have been successful. I am aware also, that the example of the French revolution has afforded extraordinary encouragement to inordinate ambition, since by the consequences of that great political convulsion, persons from the lowest classes of society were raised to the enjoyment of rank, of power, and of wealth. Nor can it be surprising, after an event so memorable, so recent, and so fruitful in bad example, that persons should be found who seek to acquire wealth by the means of public plunder, and to exalt themselves by plunging all around them in misery and ruin.
But we are to inquire whence it arises that persons whose professed objects amount to nothing less than the total subversion of the British constitution, are able to assemble so many auditors and adherents. This I am convinced, would not, and could not, take place, were it not occasioned by great public distress. If such distress did not exist, if the labouring classes were provided with employment, and enjoyed a comfortable subsistence, I believe that the number of those who would be anxious to change the constitution would be very small indeed, and that still smaller would be the number of those whom they might be able to delude. I would appeal to your lordships, whether in the former and more

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prosperous periods of our history, which have been truly and emphatically designated as "the good old times," any demagogue who had attempted to harangue the multitude in the same manner as we have sometimes witnessed in our days, would not have been pelted by the very boys in the street, as an enthusiast or a madman? But when distress is widely extended throughout the country; when even peace itself has not brought its accustomed prosperity; when the pressure of taxation is in all quarters, and by all classes most severely felt; when the agricultural, the manufacturing, and the commercial interests are greatly depressed; when almost every person finds that his means of enjoyment are considerably abridged, and many are deprived even of food and raiment, and the common necessaries of life; when the patient begins to despair of relief from all regular practitioners, and to view them with distrust; then it is that he becomes ready to swallow any nostrum which any quack can recommend.
In the Papers relative to the Internal State of the Country, which were laid upon your table in the last short session or parliament, there is no circumstance more striking than this, that the distress existed principally in the manufacturing districts. This is indeed a natural and necessary consequence of the mistaken and mischievous system which has been so long pursued, of encouraging exclusively the manufacturing and mercantile interests of this country. Such encouragement was the less requisite, as persons are in general more anxious to find a lucrative than a secure investment of their capital, and consider more their present profits than the future interests of their families. The prevalence of that feeling, the numerous examples which have been witnessed, of large fortunes that have been rapidly accumulated by such means, offer sufficient inducements to engage in such pursuits. But the manufacturers and the merchants receive not only large present profits, but are also practically relieved from many of those burthens which bear with dreadful weight upon the other classes of the community. They contribute nothing to the support of the clergy; they contribute nothing, or in a degree too inconsiderable to be mentioned, to the support of the poor: from the enor-
* See First Series, voK.41, p. 230.
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mous, and in some cases, almost intolerable burthens of tithes, poor-rates, and other local and direct taxes, they are almost entirely exempt. I would ask your lordships, upon what principle of justice it is that taxes intended for general purposes, should be levied upon one description of property, and not upon any other? that one class of his majesty's subjects should be called upon to discharge exclusively those duties which are common to them all; and that the agricultural interest should be depressed while the monied interest is encouraged in the same proportion? I would ask your lordships, upon what principle of policy it is that these burthens are imposed upon that class of the community, which is, of all others, the most: valuable to the country; which is essential to its very existence, and which offers to the state those permanent and substantial resources, which are not affected by foreign trade, or by the state of foreign I markets? Can that taxation be just; which is unequal? Can that system be politic, which discourages the most useful and important branch of industry, and; encourages all others? Nor is the encouragement confined to the undue and unjust preference which they thus enjoy. They are further encouraged by absolute prohibitions in some cases, by heavy duties in all others upon the importation of foreign goods, by prohibitions and by duties which are intended for their benefit, but which are accompanied with considerable injury to the public revenue. The temptation of high wages, and consequently of idleness, attracted large: numbers of persons to manufacturing employments, and afforded great encouragement to marriage, particularly as the offspring of such marriages, instead of being an expense to their parents, became at a very early age a source of emolument, by working in those manufactories, where: their labour was very frequently employed in a manner which was most prejudicial to their health, and which certainly required the interposition of the legislature.
Thus has arisen, in great measure, that superabundant population in some districts, which has been the cause of so many complaints, and which it is now attempted to remedy by encouraging emigration. Great and grievous indeed must be the distress of the country, when it can induce government to offer, and many persons to accept, as a favour, that which in former times would have been

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considered as a punishment; exile from their country and their native soil, and the removal to other and far distant climes. Thus also, it has arisen, that immense multitudes of manufacturersare congregated together in one spot, with every possible means and opportunity of combination and conspiracy. By the exclusive encouragement which they have enjoyed, more capital has been invested, more labour has been employed in manufactures than would otherwise have been the case; and the number of the manufacturers has been increased beyond all natural and reasonable limits. Their subsistence, however, is, and must continue to be, of all others, the most uncertain and precarious. It is only upon the home market, which has, by many persons, been so much undervalued and neglected, that any permanent reliance can be placed: it is to that market only that you can look with any security, and yet we know that thousands of manufacturers may be deprived of employment by an alteration in the fashions of the day. The market of any foreign country may at any time be closed against us, not only by war, but also by its own municipal regulations, over which we have no control, and against which we have not even the right of remonstrance. This is not a theoretical evil, but one which is the more to be dreaded, as few of the continental powers have the advantage of a representative government, which might oblige the sovereign to consult the wants and wishes of his subjects.
We know that, at the present moment, the foreign trade of this country suffers very considerable depression; but it is said that this distress is only of a temporary nature. I can by no means concur in this opinion. It must be recollected, that the distress under which our manufacturers now labour, was not occasioned solely by the return to a state of peace, and did not commence at that period, but was experienced for several years previous to the conclusion of the war. If your lordships will refer to the Journals of the House of Commons, you will find that, during the continuance of the war, numerous petitions were presented from the manufacturing districts, which complained loudly of the distress which they suffered, and called loudly for relief. Yet that was a period in which our manufactures received extraordinary encouragement, partly from the immense demand which the wants of government occasioned,
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partly from the exclusive market which was enjoyed in some countries. The circumstances of that period were such as; never occurred before, and cannot be expected to occur again. God forbid that they ever should. But as great distress was then experienced, it is reasonable to conclude, that unless relief should he afforded, a still much greater degree of distress must continue to exist, under the present circumstances of the county, than was felt at that period, which seems to be considered as one of extraordinary commercial prosperity. I would say of that period, that it was not so much distinguished by commercial prosperity as by commercial speculation; by speculations often the most visionary and chimerical; of such as begun in delusion, and ended in disappointment. Such was the rage for commercial enterprise at that period, that, amongst other strange instances which were witnessed, whole cargoes of; warming pans and of coffins were sent to; South America. It was, I remember, publicly stated at that time, by a gentleman whose knowledge upon these subjects was equally accurate as extensive,: (I mean the late Mr. George Rose), that I though the quantity of our exports was very considerable, some of the goods were captured at sea, Others were burned when they were landed; some were never sold, and others were never paid for; so that, upon the whole, the balance of payments was very much to the disadvantage of this country.
If the information which I have received is correct (and unless I had the strongest reasons for believing it to be so, I would; not state it in this or in any other place), the continental commerce of this country has received a deadly wound, by the consequences of an event which I always reprobated as unjust, which I always regretted as injurious to our interests—the annexation to Prussia of part of the Saxon dominions. The extreme injustice of that measure must be confessed by all, as it dismembered the dominions of a sovereign who was so justly beloved by his own subjects, and so justly venerated by all Europe, and whose political conduct was the necessary result of the circumstances in which he was placed, as it wrested from him a considerable portion of those subjects who, from their moral and social virtues, deserved our respect, and who had. so long flourished under his benignant and paternal sway he im-

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policy of that measure begins now to be equally apparent. The cessions of territory which were made by Saxony, have nearly surrounded Leipzig with the Prussian frontiers, over which no goods are allowed to pass without paying heavy transit duties; such, I am informed, as amount almost to a prohibition, and such as must prevent our merchants from trading to that fair with any advantage. It must have been known, that the heart of British commerce on the continent was at Leipzig, from whence, through various streams and channels, the produce of British industry was carried, not only over the greatest part of Germany, but over many of the neighbouring countries. It ought also to have been considered, that it is indispensably requisite for every emporium of commerce, such as Leipzig, to enjoy freedom of access; and that as the trade to Hamburgh, for example, would become insignificant, if the Elbe were to be constantly blockaded, so must the British trade to Leipzig become insignificant, when it cannot arrive at that place without paying such duties as are now levied by the Prussian government.
This, however, is not the only difficulty opposed to our continental trade. The continental system, as far as it related to the. prohibition of British merchandize, still continues in many parts of the continent, and is preserved almost, if not entirely, in its original vigour; and the principles of that system are still very popular upon the continent, as they were found to afford great encouragement to their own manufactures. Can we be surprised that the continental powers should endeavour to encourage the industry of their own subjects, and should feel upon that subject the same anxiety as ourselves? Do we not know also, that our exclusion of their manufactures justifies, and may have occasioned, their exclusion of our own? It has indeed been recommended, that a change should take place in the commercial regulations and prohibitory system of this country.
This is a question of such magnitude and importance, that it requires, and will so doubt receive, a separate discussion; and I will not therefore detain your lordships on this occasion with many observations upon the subject. I would however remark, that if the change which is recommended should be a remedy for any of the evils which we suffer, it is a remedy which it may not be in our power to ob-
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tain. The concurrence of a foreign state is necessarily required for the purpose; and with respect to a large neighbouring power, the lessons that France received from her commercial treaty, and afterwards from her continental system, were such as must not only discourage, but would, I am persuaded, totally prevent her from forming such are arrangement with this country. If, however, the contrary were the case, the advantage or disadvantage of such an arrangement must in a great measure depend upon the comparative consumption which might exist, in consequence, between the two countries. If, by such an arrangement, we should import from a foreign country produce and manufactures to a greater amount iii value than we should export to that country, we should lose, instead of gaining, by the bargain, and should establish with that country an unfavourable balance of trade.
In foreign trade there are, as appears to me, only two principles upon which you can act with propriety—the principle of reciprocity, or the principle of retaliation; and it is unfortunate that you do not steadily and consistently adopt either of those principles. You do not. show more favour or indulgence towards the kingdom of Saxony, which admits all your merchandize, either without any duties, or with duties extremely insignificant in their amount, than you show towards the empire of Austria, which prohibits all your merchandize, and proscribes its importation with the utmost rigour. In justice to the former, you would wish to act with reciprocity; and in justice to yourselves, with retaliation towards the latter.
As to the encouragement which foreign trade is supposed to afford to your manufactures, I cannot think that it is politic to afford an exclusive encouragement to any one branch of industry, or to foster it like a tender exotic, till it becomes unable to bear the least inclemency of the seasons. Nor do I think it politic to render a considerable portion of the people dependent for their subsistence upon foreign countries, and upon the casual market which they may find in those countries for the produce of their industry. We ought to profit by the example of our neighbours in Holland, a nation eminently distinguished by the excellence of some of its institutions, and by its extraordinary sagacity and success in all matters relating to trade and commerce.

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The Dutch were great trailers, but were not great manufacturers; for they knew that it was wise to purchase when they could sell with advantage; but that it was unwise to employ immense numbers of persons in manufacturing goods for a foreign market, and to become dependent therefore on a market that may be closed by causes which it is not possible either to foresee or to prevent. It is undoubtedly a great advantage, when manufactures enable a county to provide for its own wants; but does it therefore follow, that they should provide also for the wants of other nations, who have both the power and the inclination to manufacture for themselves, or that any reliance ought to be placed on such a source of employment and subsistence? It is a still greater advantage, when manufactures enable a country to provide emplyment for its own population; but in this country, that most important and most desirable object is in a considerable degree frustrated by the means which are employed—by the very extensive use of machinery on which point I shall afterwards have occasion to make some observations.
Having spoken of the manufacturing and mercantile interests, your lordships will allow me to say a few words upon the agricultural population. That class of the community alone enables us to subsist, and is the basis of our prosperity and power. It is more than any other distinguished by the excellence of its dispositions and habits, as well as by its attachment to the religion and laws of the country, and has remained uncontaminated by that contagion which has been spread with such unexampled activity and such mischievous effect. Hut I am grieved to say, that the interests of that class of the population have received no favour, no encouragement, no, not even that justice and protection which was due to them, but that they still continue to be burthened by taxes, grievous in their amount, and unjust because unequal in their operation. I do not ask, on behalf of the landed interest, for favour or encouragement, although it is entitled to claim them from many important considerations, and for the national advantage; but I ask for equal justice, and for equal protection. I know that I shall be reminded of the corn laws, upon which so loud a clamour has been raised, a clamour which is the more to be deprecated, as it relates to a subject upon which it may be difficult to enlighten
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the minds, but upon which it may not be difficult to inflame the passions of the multitude. The corn laws were adopted from considerations of vital importance to the welfare, nay, to the very existence of this country; and not as a protection to the landed interest. I deny that the corn laws were enacted, as has been falsely and malignantly stated in a publication which I have read with unutterable disgust, in order to enable the land owner to receive higher rents. It is not the nominal amount of rents which constitutes the riches of the land owner, but their amount as compared with the value of money, with the wages of labour, with the prices of various commodities, and with the weight of taxation. The corn laws were necessary, in order to prevent this-country from being exposed in unfavourable seasons to all the horrors and calamities of absolute famine. This, however, is only a narrow and imperfect view of their importance. They were necessary in order to enable this country, in the most favourable seasons and under the most auspicious circumstances, to procure a supply of corn, for which, if those laws-did not exist, you would depend upon other countries. This would be contrary to every principle, I will not say, of policy, but even of common sense, and it is obvious that corn could not be procured from foreign countries when they will not receive that merchandize which might be sent in exchange, and when they require; those precious metals of which we feel and lament the scarcity.
Need I mention the present amount of poor's rates, which is one of the principal causes of the distress which afflicts the landed interest, and is also one of the principal consequences of the distress which is suffered by that and by all other classes of the community? The present I amount of the poor's rates is known to I exceed by more than one half, and-if the I accounts of the last year were examined, might appear to be more than double the sum that was required for the whole peace establishment of this country in the year 1792; a fact which would have appeared incredible to our ancestors, and may, it is hoped, appear so to our descendants If no effectual remedy should be adopted, if the poor's rates should be allowed to increase as rapidly as they have done of late years, the destruction of the landed interest at no distant period is inevitable. Your lordships might, in

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such a case, still preserve your title deeds, and still continue to be the nominal proprietors of your estates, but the produce of those estates would be partitioned according to the projects of the Spencean politicians. Against this great, this grievous, this growing evil, no effectual remedy has yet been adopted, or even been proposed; for I need not speak of those bills, which, whatever may have been the industry and information of those who prepared them, have been found to be most nugatory and inefficient. God forbid, my lords, that I should wish any measure to be adopted which could in any manner operate with harshness towards the poor, or that could operate otherwise than with kindness and indulgence. I have, however, the satisfaction to believe, that measures could be adopted, which would improve their condition, and would increase their comforts and enjoyments, while on the other hand they would considerably diminish the burthen of the poor's rates. Whatever may be the truth or falsehood of the theory which Mr. Malthus has attempted to establish, I disapprove entirely of the measures which some of his followers have recommended. Unless some noble lord, more qualified than myself for the task, should wish to undertake it, I intend at a future, and I hope no distant opportunity, to submit to your lordships, a motion upon the subject of the poor laws.
Lastly, my lords, as that which is the chief cause of our present distress, but as that which it is also the most difficult to remedy, let us view the financial situation of this country, groaning, as it does, under such a burthen of taxes and of debts, as never yet afflicted any country upon earth. The pressure of that taxation is as galling as its inequality is unjust and injurious to the interests of the country. It may be proved by a clear calculation, that every individual in the country who is not a land-owner, pays one third of his expenditure in taxes, but that every landowner pays more than one half, that is, eight-fifteenths of his expenditure in taxes. Under such a burthen, the result of long wars and of the funding system, it is perhaps impossible that this country can enjoy prosperity, I mean, of course, absolute, and not relative prosperity. But though prosperity may at present be unattainable, it is the anxious wish of the people to receive, and it is the duty of parliament to grant, every possible allevi-
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ation of the public burthens. It was no doubt with great reluctance, but from a mistaken view of the public interest, that ministers were induced, last year, to propose a measure which was so generally, and, I conceive, so justly unpopular, as that of imposing, in a period of profound peace, and several years after the termination of the war, an additional and permanent burthen of three millions of taxes upon the suffering people of this country I am ready to do justice to the motives which influenced their conduct, and to the importance of the object which they had in view, the maintenance of public credit. But it ought to have been considered, that any measure which renders the debt more onerous, renders it also more odious to the country, and tends unhappily to create a feeling of anxiety and impatience to shake off that burthen at any sacrifices and at any risk. The security of the public creditor was therefore weakened instead of being strengthened by that measure. Exclusive of that consideration, it was, I think, the duty of ministers to have adopted, under the circumstances in which the country was placed, a contrary system; and instead of imposing three millions of new taxes, to have diminished to the amount of several millions annually, the taxes which already existed. It was their duty to adopt measures which might tend to equalize the grievous burthen of taxation. It was, however, at that moment that they began to make an experiment, which was certainly very desirable in its object, but which was very singular in its mode of execution. I speak of the measures which were adopted, with the view of enabling the Bank to resume cash-payments. I do not mean to dispute the propriety and importance of returning as speedily as may be done with safety, to the legitimate standard of value, to the only system upon which you can act with prudence, that of a convertible currency. But was the time which was chosen for the purpose the most proper? Were the means which were employed, the best adapted to the object? If that measure is to have the effect which was intended; if the circulating medium has been depreciated, as we have heard it stated, twenty-five per cent, and if it is in consequence to be restored to its proper value, it is obvious that the pressure of taxation, which is one of the chief causes of the distress of the country, must be increased in the same proportion.

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In the observations which I have mode upon the distress which is now suffered, nothing has been farther from my wishes and intentions, than to excite any feelings of despondency. But I have considered it to he my duty to state my Opinions upon the subject fairly, freely, and fully to your lordships, and to represent that the evils with which we are afflicted are most severe; that the necessity of affording some relief is most urgent, and that your measures must be commensurate with the magnitude of the object, I proceed therefore to a part of the subject, the consideration of which is as pleasing as that of the other has been painful—the consideration of those measures by which we might be able, not to remedy completely, but to relieve very considerably, that which is the cause of so much distress, of so much discontent, and of so much danger to the country, the want of employment for the poor.
I will, upon this occasion, content myself with stating to your lordships, the general principles of the measures which I shall recommend. The consideration and adoption of those measures must necessarily precede the examination of the manner in which they may be carried into effect, and the explanations which I should offer upon the mode of execution, would not only be premature at present, but might lead to very minute and very protracted discussions, which could he conducted with more convenience and advantage by the committee which I will propose to your lordships to appoint.
In the measures that I shall now propose, I have in view two principles, which I consider to be most important, that of providing permanent employment for the poor, and that of enabling them to secure an independent subsistence. In the former respect, those measures are distinguished from the plans which have been occasionally adopted, of employing the poor in public works; a mode of employment which is generally unproductive, and must be considered of a temporary nature, and has, besides, the disadvantage of being attended with very considerable expense. In the latter respect, those measures are distinguished from the plans which have been proposed for employing the poor in workhouses. Your lordships know that an establishment; has been formed by Mr. Salisbury, under the name of "The School of Economy," which is well calculated to
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employ the poor in work-houses, with considerable advantage to the parish, and with a consequent reduction to the poor's rates. Great merit is due to that gentleman, for founding that useful institution, which has many advantages, though it does not profess to secure an independent subsistence to the poor.
The first of these measures is, the cultivation of waste lands; and if I required any confirmation of the opinions which I entertain upon that subject, I should find it in the project which is now about to be executed at Dartmoor. With respect to that undertaking, I have not such information as would enable me to form a correct opinion on the probability of its success or of its failure; and much will of course, depend upon the general principles on which it is conducted; much also on their mode of execution. Such, however, has been the ingenuity and perseverance of the gentleman, who is understood to be principally concerned in the undertaking, the usher of the Black Rod, that valuable produce has, I am informed, been drawn from a spot, which was considered to be totally' barren and useless. If the undertaking should be attended with any success at Dartmoor, it cannot fail in. any other place; for I do not suppose that there exists in the whole island, a more unpromising, and perhaps a more unprofitable spot, than that which has been selected for the purpose.
It has, I am aware, been stated, that if waste lands could have been cultivated with success, they would have been cultivated long since. It does not, however, follow, because a certain tract of land could not be cultivated with advantage as a large farm, with the large capital and large establishment which is wanted for the purpose, that it could not be cultivated with advantage, when divided into small allotments, which would require no other labour than that of the occupier and his family. For such cultivation, the spade husbandry would, I am convinced, be found very advantageous. It has, I know, been attempted to ridicule that mode of husbandry; but the fact is, that in a part of the country with which I am well acquainted, and in which, happily, there does not exist as much distress as in most others, the expence of digging land is not greater than that of ploughing it, and the produce is considerably more abundant, which we know, from scientific reasons, if this were a proper place for explaining

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them, must always be the case. One of the principles, therefore, which I should propose far the cultivation of waste lands, is, that of dividing them into such portions as could be tilled by the occupier and by his family, without requiring any other labour whatsoever.
Nor does it follow, because a certain tract of land could not be cultivated with advantage for want of a market, or without the risk of glutting the market with the new produce which would be raised, that it could not be cultivated with advantage when the greatest part of that produce is consumed by the occupier, without his requiring any market, except for the purpose of enabling him to provide for his other wants, and to pay the moderate rent which would be expected. Under such circumstances, the state of the market would not prevent the cultivation of such land, and would become of very little importance to the occupier, or consequently to the proprietor. Another principle is, that colonization must precede cultivation, to provide the means of tilling the land, and also a demand for its produce. The first measure to be adopted for the purpose, is, that of building cottages, which could be done at a very moderate expense, as they would be constructed by the labour of those who are afterwards to inhabit them, and the rents would be proportioned to the value of the materials which would be employed, and which, in some parts of the country, would be very inconsiderable.
Another principle which should be followed, is that of rendering the system of cultivation advantageous to the owner as well as to the occupier, in order that it may be applicable to such lands as are private property, as well as to those which are crown lands or common lands, and to lands which are of an inferior quality, as well as to those which are termed waste lands. It has, indeed, been supposed, that such a system of cultivation would tend to encourage population; but it appears to me, that the effect would be directly the reverse. Imprudent marriages among the poor, are some of the results of that improvidence which naturally arises from their present situation. When a labourer has reason to apprehend, and, perhaps, from experience to know, that his own exertions, whatever may be his industry or good conduct, will not suffice for his support, and will not enable him to subsist without receiving parochial relief,
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he becomes careless of futurity, and, in the degraded situation to which he is reduced, he trusts to the parish for assistance in all cases, and under such circumstances is unwilling to debar himself of the enjoyments which he would receive from a family. But if his condition were the reverse, if he enjoyed comfort and independence, his children would beware, lest through their own imprudence or misconduct, they should fall from the station in which they had lived into one of poverty and degradation. This is the moral restraint which is found to operate with almost constant success amongst the middle and higher classes of society. The example of Ireland does not apply to this case, because the superabundant population of that country does not arise from small occupancies, but from the pernicious system of leases for lives, and of sub-letting. I speak in the presence of many noble lords who are connected with that country, and who know that this statement is correct. If, however, we look to the example of Ireland, we shall find that in that country, which possesses neither the advantages nor the disadvantages of poor laws, for they may be considered in both views, the labouring classes could not be supported if they did not occupy small portions of land, which enable them to provide subsistence for their families. Can it then be doubted that a system which alone enables Ireland to subsist without the assistance of poor's rates, would in this country operate very beneficially in diminishing the amount of the poor's rates? We know, that such is the opinion of those who have devoted much time and attention to the subject, who have maturely considered it, and who have exerted themselves in a manner which is most meritorious and patriotic.
The system which I recommend to your lordships, would effect that which, at all times, is very desirable, and is at the present moment peculiarly important; it would give to the labouring classes an interest in the soil. It would also tend to re-establish that order of men, which once formed the happiness and strength of this country, but which, unfortunately, has now become nearly extinct, the class of small yeomen. It would raise to that independent station, many of those who are now labourers, and would enable them to secure their subsistence by labouring for themselves instead of labouring for others; and by diminishing the number of the la-

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bourers, you would proportionally increase the demand and the wages of labour. Thus would your lordships encourage the industry of the labouring classes, and revive amongst them those habits and feelings of independence, which are essential to their welfare; and thus would you secure the means of permanent employment, and of comfortable subsistence to many thousands of your fellow subjects who are now in the most abject state of misery and distress.
Another measure which I would propose to your lordships, is the encouragement of the public fisheries. Upon this point I speak from the authority of the late Mr. Cobb, a person whose talents and information upon this subject were unrivalled, and who, in consequence of the valuable discoveries which he had made, received a pension from government under the administration of Mr. Pitt. Some of these discoveries have, I fear, followed him to the grave, but others are preserved in some of his manuscript papers which are in my possession. His views related partly to improved modes of fishing, and partly to the mode of conveying fish from the coasts into the interior of the country. I am aware that the prices of labour, and of every article, have very considerably increased since the period in which he wrote, which is now about thirty years ago; but he then proved by calculations the most perspicuous and convincing, that sea-fish could be delivered in a fresh state, and in any quantity, at a distance of forty miles from the coasts, at the rate of one penny per pound, and at the distance even of one hundred and twenty miles from the coasts at the rate of three pence per pound. I would explain to the committee if it should be the pleasure of your lordships to appoint it, in what manner the execution of this project could be encouraged; and it was proved by Mr. Cobb, that a very large profit would be received by those who might undertake it. It would not only afford abundant means of employment for sea-faring persons in catching the fish, and for other persons in conveying it into the interior of the country but would also provide food at, a very cheap rate, as the source from which it is taken is quite inexhaustible, as the implements, which are requisite for the purpose are, by no means costly, and as no other expense would be incurred than that of the labour of the fishermen.
The last measure to which I wish to
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call the serious attention of your lordships is that of establishing proper regulations with respect to the machinery, which is now so generally employed for abridging labour. That the unlimited use of such machinery has in some cases occasioned, and in other cases very much aggravated the public distress, is a fact which cannot be denied, and which does not require to be proved. It is stated even in the papers which were lately presented to parliament by the executive government, as one of the causes of the distress, and, therefore, of the discontent which existed in the manufacturing districts. The first victims of such machinery were the agricultural poor, whose domestic industry has been destroyed by it, because it prevented that industry from being exerted with any prospect whatever of advantage. In proof of this assertion, I beg to state to your lordships what was the situation, forty years ago, of the labouring poor in a part of Devonshire with which I am connected. The wages of labour were then six shillings per week, the price at which they had continued from the year 1728, as I can show by documents to which I have referred. The wages of labour in that part of the country are now seven shillings per week; and your lordships will judge what was the comparative situation of the poor, when you consider the immense difference in the value of money between the two periods. But at the former period, the wife of the labourer was able to earn as much by spinning, as he did by his daily labour. The earnings of a family at that period were, therefore, twelve shillings per week, and they are now only seven, although the price of every article of subsistence has been since that time enormously increased. In that part of the country the situation of the labouring classes has become so much worse, that the change is truly afflicting, and the causes deserve your serious investigation. The evils which thus afflicted the agricultural poor, are now severely felt by the manufacturers themselves, many thousands of whom are now deprived of employment, and even, of those who are employed, I know from indisputable authority, that the earnings do not, in some cases, exceed ten shillings per week, by working eighteen hours out of the four and twenty, an extent to which human labour ought not in any case to be exerted, and to which it cannot be exerted for any length of time. I speak with all proper

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deference to the opinions of those who differ from me upon this question of political economy; but I must confess, that the arguments by which it is attempted to justify the unlimited use of machinery, appear to me, upon the most mature reflection, to be utterly fallacious. It is true, that in general, and when trade is allowed to take its natural course, the supply will be equal to the demand; but the converse of that proposition, the principle upon which the manufacturers seem to act, that the demand will be equal to the supply, is false, and is contradicted both by theory and by experience. If manufactured goods were to be given away, instead of being sold, and such has already been very nearly the case, when they have been sold at a considerable loss upon their prime cost, the consumption of them could not be indefinitely increased, nor would their consumption in the home market be much diminished if less machinery were to be employed. Though goods which are manufactured by machinery are lower in price than those on which manual labour has been employed, their quality is in many cases very much inferior, and the real difference in the price is therefore far less considerable than is generally supposed. The great advantage which arises from manufactures, is that of providing employment for the poor; and this principle is recognised not only in your Statute Book, but also, by the whole system of your commercial regulations. It could be demonstratively proved, that many articles could be purchased from our neighbours at a much lower price than that at which they could be manufactured in this country, and that government would derive an additional revenue by allowing them to be imported on the payment of moderate duties; but this objection would always be made, to which it is difficult, if not impossible, to return a satisfactory answer,—will you deprive of employment a considerable number of your artizans? By the general use of machinery they have been most effectually deprived of employment, and that evil, of which the melancholy and alarming results have already been witnessed, is constantly increasing. What was the conduct upon this subject of Frederick the Great? which I quote not as an example for our imitation, but in illustration of my argument: That sovereign, whose views were directed to the glory of his monarchy, and were not influenced by
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very tender feelings of humanity and compassion, desired, when the model of a machine was presented to him which tended to abridge human labour, that it should be preserved as a specimen of ingenuity, and that the inventor should receive a pecuniary compensation for the time, the trouble, and the talent which he had employed upon it; but he desired also, that the inventor should immediately quit his dominions. In countries where there is a deficiency of population, and in new colonies, the use of such machinery must be eminently beneficial; but ought it to be allowed without any restriction in the present circumstances of this country, which, as we are told in all quarters, suffers from a superabundance of population? There is undoubtedly some machinery which deserves not only protection but encouragement, such as that which performs mechanically those processes which are either injurious to the health or dangerous to the lives or limbs of the workmen: nor should I wish to interfere with such machinery as affords merely a substitute for physical force, nor, except in particular cases, with such as performs those processes which, being of a complicated nature, might otherwise require many tools and much instruction for the purpose. It is by a minute and careful examination of the different species of machinery which is employed, that the committee would be enabled accurately to distinguish between that which may be allowed, and that which ought, from considerations both of justice, and of policy, to be restricted. The objections which I have stated apply particularly to the machinery which supersedes the occupations of domestic industry, such as spinning and lace-making, and such arts as can be easily learned and easily executed by the labouring classes of the community. When such machinery is used, when industrious workmen are in consequence deprived of employment, and obliged to subsist upon the bounty of others, those by whom such evils are inflicted, should be called upon to relieve them, and to support those who, if such machinery did not exist, would be both able and willing to provide for their own subsistence. This is not a new principle, but one which is practically followed by the agricultural population. If in consequence of the exactions of the clergyman for tithes, or if from any other cause, the owners or occupiers of land in a parish determine to convert their arable

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grounds into pastures, they are required to support those who are thus deprived of employment. If the manufacturer were to be placed, as in justice he ought to be, under a similar obligation, and were to bear only his due portion of the burthen which is thus imposed upon the other classes of the community, his own personal profits would not be acquired, as they are at present, without his incurring to any considerable degree an additional expense, and without his sharing as he ought, in those taxes which are required to support those whom he has thus deprived of the means of supporting themselves. It seems to be argued as if the private profits of the master manufacturers were in all cases, and necessarily, a profit to the country; but place on the other side of the balance the losses which are sustained by the artizans, and the expense which is incurred in supporting them, and you will then judge whether the unlimited use of machinery can be considered as profitable to the whole community. If, however, by the regulations which should be adopted upon this subject, an inconvenience should be sustained by the master manufacturer, it could not be commensurate with the evils which are now suffered by the artizans; but I have the satisfaction of believing, that the internal trade of this country would be very little affected by such regulations. Though the price of some manufactured goods would be somewhat increased, the means of purchasing them, and the number of purchasers, would also be increased. I may, perhaps, be asked, whether the foreign trade of this country could subsist, if such regulations were to be adopted, with respect to some machinery? To which I might reply,—can the foreign trade of this country be I expected to flourish even without such regulations? I see little or no reason to I hope that the foreign trade of this country will ever revive to any considerable degree, and my fears upon that subject are the stronger, when I reflect upon the prohibitory system which is still adopted in many countries, and which the manufacturers in some countries, anxiously wish to render even more rigid than it is at present. With respect to foreign manufactures, I cannot expect that the improvements of machinery in this country can long be kept a secret from them, when so many artizans, who used it, are now deprived of employment, or that improvements will not be made in the machinery
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of the continent. Should it however still continue to be more imperfect than that which is used in the country, the disadvantage on their side may in great measure be counterbalanced on the continent by the difference of the wages of labour. It might, perhaps, be practicable, informing regulations upon the subject, to admit exceptions with respect to such goods as are manufactured solely for a foreign market. I know that strong prejudices exist in favour of the unlimited use of machinery; but I am, however, convinced, and that conviction is the result of much reflection, that it is indispensably necessary to adopt some regulations upon the subject, otherwise, great public distress will continue to exist, and in many cases the exertions of some of the labouring classes will be paralyzed, their industry and their means of occupation will be destroyed, their subsistence will be derived only from parochial relief, and their condition will become helpless if not hopeless.
Such, my lords, are the measures which I would most strongly recommend to your adoption, and which I submit to your candid judgment. Though unconnected with each other, they have in view one and the same object. If your lordships should appoint the committee which I shall propose, and if it should, after a full investigation of the subject, adopt the general principles of those measures, I would, upon receiving its report, move for the appointment of a separate committee for each object, to consider the most eligible mode of carrying it into execution. Whatever difference of opinions may possibly exist upon the practicability and propriety of any of those measures, there can, I think, exist but one opinion on the vital importance of the object, which imperiously calls for your speediest and most attentive consideration. The motion which I shall submit to your lordships, does not prescribe to the committee any specific mode of accomplishing that most desirable object, and does not preclude the adoption of any measures which, upon deliberate examination, may appear to be the most eligible for the purpose; but the necessity of the case is most urgent, and will not allow you to postpone that examination without danger, whatever difficulties the subject may present. I conjure your lordships to meditate day and night upon the measures which ought to be adopted in this great crisis of our fate, to alleviate the distress with which the coun-

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try is now afflicted, to allay the discontent which at present pervades it, to avert the dreadful consequences which may ensue, to preserve the public peace, to restore, as far as is yet possible, our former prosperity and happiness; and in the language of the prayer which is daily read before us, "to unite and knit together the hearts of all orders of men within the realm." I therefore move, "That a select committee be appointed to consider the practicability and the means of providing employment for the poor, particularly in the manufacturing districts."
The Earl of Liverpooldid not intend to enter into any discussion of the various topics which his noble friend had introduced in the course of his able speech, because, if he did, he should be obliged to trespass on the patience of their lordships to an extent which they could hardly be expected to forgive, since a discussion of them would lead to an examination of the whole principles of political economy, and of the origin of agriculture, of manufactures and of commerce, not only in this, but in every other country. He was also the more inclined to defer the discussion of those topics, because another opportunity would shortly present itself, when it could be carried on with greater practical advantage than it could be carried on at the present moment. He should preface the few remarks which he was about to offer to their lordships by thanking his noble friend for the candid manner in which he had brought forward his present motion. His noble friend had pointed out the object which he wished to accomplish in the most clear and manly terms, and had explained most distinctly the views with which he intended to go into the proposed committee; and and yet, with the exception of the benevolent intentions entertained by his noble friend of benefiting the poor in the first place, and the country in the second, there was not a single position in his speech to which he was not prepared to give his most direct and unqualified disapprobation; for the propositions which his noble friend had maintained went to subvert the whole political economy of the country, and to make an entire change in the whole of its commercial relations. He had commenced his speech by laying down a most dangerous distinction between the manufacturing and the agricultural interests; and by stating that the policy of the British government, which,
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in reality afforded nothing more than equal protection to both, had hitherto led it to support the former at the expense of the latter interest. He, however, was one of those who did not understand how the two interests could be separated; for it appeared to him, that there was nothing which supported the one that did not at the same time support the other also. Manufactures had made great and rapid progress during the times in which it had been their fate to live, and had raised the country to a degree of power and glory which it could never have obtained without them. In what manner had they made that progress? By restrictions upon, agriculture? Most assuredly not; for when had they ever been supported in defiance of it? Agriculture, on the contrary, had been greatly benefitted by the increased circulation of manufactures; for was there any man who made a fortune by them who did not invest such part of it as he could withdraw from his business in landed property; or, if he did not so invest it himself, who was not desirous that it should be so invested, for greater security, by the heirs who succeeded to it?—But his noble friend had also argued as if all the protection of government had been extended to the interests of the manufacturers, and withdrawn from those of the agriculturists. But how far was this view of the matter; correct? True it was that the importation of foreign manufactures into this country could not take place except under certain restrictions; but was not the agricultural interest protected in a similar manner? Could any foreign nation import cattle into this country, or sheep, or wool, without the payment of heavy duties? Certainly not. Was not the cultivator of grain also protected by prohibitions, forbidding the importation of foreign corn, except under certain stipulations? Were there no such things as corn-laws to give them protection? He was not now arguing whether that protection was rightly afforded or not: he was only anxious to show, that, if protection had been afforded to the manufacturer, it had not in any degree been denied to the agriculturist. Into that question he would not ax that time go any further, though he thought it necessary to say a few words regarding the other objects which were contemplated in the motion of his noble friend. He should, in the first instance, dispose briefly of one of them, to which

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he intended no opposition—he meant that which went to encourage the fisheries. He could assure his noble friend, that there was not any subject on which his majesty's ministers had bestowed more of their time and attention than they had done upon this; and he was inclined to think that every exertion which could be made had been made, to increase the fisheries. In that opinion he might be mistaken; but if either his noble friend opposite, or any other noble lord, could devise a mode of procuring, first of all, a greater supply offish, and, next, an adequate market for that increased supply, which had not as yet come under his own notice, he could assure them he should be very happy to receive such information, and to offer, in return, such assistance as he could give, He thought, however, that if his noble friend were to review the minutes of evidence which had been taken upon this subject, his noble friend would come to an opinion not very different from that which he himself entertained. But though he was not inclined to oppose this object of his noble friend, if it were brought forward separately, he was obliged to oppose the accomplishment of his other objects, by an imperious sense of duty; for his noble friend's views regarding them were founded upon the most erroneous principles; and, though they proceeded from the best intentions, were calculated, if carried into execution, to produce most mischievous consequences.—As to the cultivation of waste lands, which his noble friend had proposed, he must observe, that there was no subject which had attracted more of the attention, not only of parliament, but also of political economists throughout the country. For his own part, he was much inclined to doubt the expediency of any measure which would invest fresh capital in the cultivation of lands now waste. He was for leaving capitalists to find out the way in which their capital could be best employed, being perfectly convinced that, under such circumstances, the interest of the public was not distinct from the interest of the individual. Besides, the misfortune of the agriculturist was not that too little, but that too much waste land had been cultivated—a misfortune which had arisen out of the high price of corn during the war. He positively knew that this was the source of the mischief, and that it had led to the breaking up of several waste lands, which had previously been used at a small
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price for several useful purposes. More than one half of the individuals who had given their attention to this subject were of opinion that, if the capital which had been expended on the new land had been expended on the old, it would have produced a much greater profit to the cultivator, and a still greater advantage to the community at large. He himself thought, that if they were to proceed to cultivate more waste lands, they would double, treble, quadruple, nay, quintuple all the present agricultural distress. He was of opinion that this would be the case, sup posing that the scheme were to be carried into execution at the expense of private individuals; but the evil would be still further aggravated, if it should be carried into execution at the public expense, as his noble friend had just proposed. Several of the noble lords whom he was then addressing were themselves agriculturists, and well aware how small were the profits at present derived from agricultural pursuits: he himself, who sometimes engaged in them, partly for health, and partly for amusement, knew them to be so from his own experience: he would therefore put it to their lordships, whether any thing could be more ruinous than the cultivation of waste lands, under such circum stances, at the public expense. Indeed, he would ask them, whether it was consistent with the dignity of government to descend to speculations in land, and with its wisdom to undertake the cultivation of that kind of land which no other person could cultivate with profit? He thought that only one answer could be given to such questions; but, whether that were the case or not, there was another consideration which ought not to be overlooked. It was this—Where was the money for such a scheme to come from? The country was already burthened with a great weight of taxes for the payment of its army, its navy, its civil establishment, and the interest of its national debt. In addition to these taxes, it was now pro posed that a great revenue should be raised for the purpose of cultivating certain waste lands at the public expense, which all allowed no other person could cultivate with profit. Upon these grounds he must certainly oppose such part of his noble friend's motion as related to the cultivation of waste lands.—He should now call their attention to the remarks which his noble friend had made upon the employment of machinery; and here he

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would take the opportunity of informing him, that, next to the spirit of her people, England was indebted for her commercial power and greatness to the inventions which that people had made in machinery. It had given, as it were, legs to the lame and sight to the blind: it had inspired the dull with enterprise, and to the enterprising had given additional energy: it had placed the country, in spite of all its disadvantages, on a level with the most favoured nations, and had enabled its merchants, who paid a heavy price for labour, to compete with those of other nations, who paid but a trifle for it. Did his noble friend conceive that the commercial greatness of England had arisen from any superior advantage in its climate, any superior fertility in its soil? No. He might go to the east or to the west, to the north or to the south, and find climates of more genial influence, lands of much richer quality—but he would not find in their boundaries men whose mind was a richer treasure to the land which contained them than any which either soil or climate ever produced. He would find that they did not number among their inhabitants a Watts, a Bolton, an Arkwright, and many other names to which England was indebted for its present greatness—men who were as useful to their country, in their generation, as any of the legislators of old were in theirs. Let him visit our manufacturing towns—for instance, Birmingham; and he would see the greatest inventions matured, and brought to perfection, by those whom he might consider as the meanest and most abject of mankind, but who were, notwithstanding daily rising, from the humble situation in which Providence had originally placed them, to wealth and honour, and eminence in the state. If, therefore, his noble friend was for discouraging the employment of machinery—if he was for putting down the bold and enterprising and inventive spirit of our industrious mechanics, he was for putting down and discouraging that which had been in times past, and must again be in days that were to come, the source of much of our welfare and happiness. True it was that the employment of it had been productive of distress as well as of prosperity; but all experience proved that, wherever there had been great wealth, there also had been at the same time great poverty; and that, wherever great enterprise had existed, that enterprise had always been found
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forcing itself beyond its natural level, and not returning to it until it had experienced great distress and misery. To that state the enterprise of the country had at present reduced it. But were their lordships therefore prepared to say that they would retrograde to the first ages of society, and give up all the benefits which had since accrued to them from the exertion of human ingenuity? Could they with advantage go back one single step? He thought not. They must feel that they owed a mighty debt to the population which was now looking up to them for support and consolation; and, feeling that obligation, they ought likewise to feel, that neither the laws of God nor of man permitted them to shrink from the responsibility attached to it. Being impressed, therefore, with the conviction that the objects contemplated by his noble friend's motion were such as he had described them to be, and were calculated to produce pernicious results, which had, by some fatality, escaped his noble friend's observation—being unwilling at the same time to put a decided negative upon a motion which was intended to relieve the distresses of the poor—he felt it necessary to conclude the remarks which he had made to the House by moving the previous question.
Earl Stanhopemade a short reply, in which he complained that his noble friend had misunderstood him both on the subject of waste lands and on that of machinery. He regretted that the money spent in useless expeditions such as that to the North Pole, was not laid out in the erection of cottages; remonstrated against the rejection of his general motion, on the ground upon which his noble friend had objected to his specific plan; and declared that as his opinions on the subject were unchanged he should feel it his duty to enter them on the Journals.
The previous question was then carried without a division.

PROTEST AGAINST THE REJECTION OF EARL STANHOPE'S MOTION.
The following Protest was entered on the Journals;
"Dissentient,
"1st, Because it is, in my opinion, the duty of parliament to consider the practicability, arid the means of alleviating the distress which at present exists in consequence of the want of employment for the poor, particularly as that distress has in

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many parts of the country rendered dangerous the machinations of the disaffected and has already produced much discontent, which, unless relief should be afforded, must be expected to continue, and even to increase.
2nd, Because I cannot contemplate without deep regret, and serious apprehension, the continuance of those calamities which are at present caused by the want of employment for the poor, which tend to disturb the public peace, as well as to destroy the public prosperity, and which, from every consideration of humanity and policy, are much to be deplored.
3rd, "Because it appears tome, that a very considerable number of the poor might be provided with employment: 1st, By encouraging the public fisheries, which might prove an abundant source of occupation and subsistence. 2ndly, By promoting the cultivation of waste land, of which many millions of acres still exist in this island. And 3rdly, By adopting proper regulations respecting the use of the machinery, which, by abridging labour, has deprived many industrious persons of employment, both in agriculture and in manufactures.
4th, "Because the adoption of such measures would, in my opinion, diminish very considerably the amount of the poor's rates, and thereby tend to relieve the severe distress which is now suffered by the agricultural interests of the country, and to revive in the labouring classes, those habits and feelings of independence which are inseparably connected with their welfare.
5th, "Because the relief which might be afforded to the poor by such measures would not be precarious, transient, of an eleemosynary nature, and would not be attended with such an expense as would be onerous to the state.
6th, "Because the inquiry which was recommended, seems particularly expedient, under the present circumstances of the country, which is afflicted with a grievous burthen of debt and taxes, and which suffers also from a stagnation of trade, arising in great measure from causes which may prove to be not of a temporary nature, and which it may not be in the power of this country to control.
7th, "Because if the measures which were suggested for the employment of the poor were considered to be impracticable, or inexpedient, the appointment of the committee which was proposed, would, in
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my judgment, have been proper, in order to consider of other means by which that most important, and most desirable object, might be accomplished.
8th, "Because the appointment of that committee would have been highly gratifying to the people, and would also have afforded an additional proof, that this House is anxious to investigate the causes of any public distress, and as far as is practicable, to administer relief.
9th, "Because that committee would, by its inquiries, have furnished more ample and satisfactory information, than this House has yet obtained, on a subject most interesting in itself, and peculiarly important at the present moment, the state and condition of the labouring classes.
10th, "Because it has not been shown by any argument which has been adduced, that it would in any respect be inexpedient to institute the inquiry which was recommended, and which seems to be imperiously demanded by the wants and wishes of the poor. (Signed) STANHOPE."