Sitting of 2 May 1820

STEAM ENGINES AND FURNACES.
Mr. M. A. Taylorsaid, it was in the recollection of many members, that during the session preceding the last, he had moved for a committee to inquire into the practicability of erecting steam engines and furnaces in such a manner as to relieve the places in which they were erected from the intolerable nuisance which their intense smoke had so generally produced to the health and comfort of the population of large cities and towns. That committee had been granted to him, and their report was in the possession of the House. If gentlemen would take the trouble of attending to its suggestions, they would find substantial reasons to be satisfied that such a very desirable improvement could be both easily and promptly effected. From, the manner in which these furnaces were erected, and increased as they were in number, London, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, and other extensive cities and towns, were almost become uninhabitable [a laugh]. Gentlemen might laugh at the term, but he contended it was strictly true, as the persons engaged in business in these towns were actually compelled to guard the health of their families from the deleterious effects of the ebullitions of smoke issuing from those furnaces, by removing to hired houses at a distance from the place of their avocations. The whole of these dense ebullitions of smoke, which made the air of large places so unhealthy, and propagated fever and disease, principally arose from the furnaces as they were at present constructed. That such an evil could be corrected, and corrected without injury to the persons engaged in business connected with these steam engines, he was cer

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tain he could convince both the House and the country. He had only to refer to the manufactory of Mr. Parkes at Warwick, where the experiment had been made most successfully. He had himself gone to Warwick for the purpose of seeing it, and the result had more than satisfied his most sanguine expectations. In that manufactory there were three furnaces, all of which were constructed so as to consume their own smoke, and he could add that these furnaces were constructed at as small an expense as those generally in use, and that they were worked with a less consumption of fuel by one-fourth. If, on entering Mr. Parkes's establishment any gentleman was asked to point out the position of the great furnaces, he would be at a loss to discover them, so efficiently had the experiment been carried into practice. There was not more smoke from these furnaces than from a common chimney. In order to be fully satisfied, he himself, at his visit, endeavoured to create a smoke, but was unable. Within ten yards of the manufactory was a bleaching ground, and an extensive garden; and he need not add, that neither bleaching nor planting could succeed in the vicinity of the ordinary furnaces. The garden and conservatory of Mr. Parkes were also uninjured; in short, he would defy any gentleman to go to the place as he had done, and not to return with a conviction that there was ample ground for the present motion. At a distillery within about a mile of that House, beyond the penitentiary, the smoke was nearly, but not entirely, consumed; and the owner had readily shown the mode in which the effect was accomplished. If it should be discovered, as he had no doubt it would be, that the remedy was generally applicable, every man would be glad that some compulsory law should be adopted for the preservation of the health and comfort of the metropolis. So fully satisfied was he upon the subject, that he would never cease until the object were accomplished, and he trusted that others would be stimulated by his example. He would appeal to the hon. members representing that part of the country, as to the state of the atmosphere in Manchester, Liverpool, and Birmingham. From the Speaker's house the ebullitions of smoke were constantly discernible: in Bridge-street, Blackfriars, small furnaces were erecting, to the great annoyance of the inhabitants, and gentlemen who had at-
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tended the courts at St. James's must have often found it difficult almost to recognize their friends through the dense atmosphere occasioned by the great brewery at Pimlico. The same, or nearly the same, might be said of the Cannon-brewery, in the vicinity of Hyde-park. He could refer to his hon. and learned friend near him for his authority, as he accompanied him when he visited Mr. Parkes's manufactory at Warwick. At present, his intention was to move for a select committee to inquire into the practicability, and if their report, as he had no doubt it would be, was favourable, it would be his next step to propose a declaratory law, making the present construction a nuisance, and, of course, subject to the same legal prosecutions as other nuisances. He concluded with moving, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire how far it may be practicable to compel persons using Steam Engines and Furnaces in their different works to erect them in a manner less prejudicial to public health and public comfort, and to report their observations thereupon to the House."
Mr. Denmanseconded the motion, and bore his fullest testimony to the facts stated by his hon. friend, as to Mr. Parkes's manufactory at Warwick. He had seen three furnaces at work, and not the slightest appearance of smoke. He had no doubt that the public knowledge of the thing would of itself be sufficient to introduce the improvement into general practice, without the necessity of recourse to a declaratory law. He paid a high compliment to Mr. Parkes, for the merit of this important invention, which was remarkable for its simplicity. Of its successful result the public would soon have an opportunity of judging, by means of its introduction into the brewery of Messrs. Barclay and Co., and into other establishments in the metropolis. The country, he said, was much indebted to his hon. friend for bringing such questions before the legislature.
Sir C. Mordaunthad also seen the manufactory of Mr. Parkes, and had admired the ingenious and at the same time effectual method in which the desirable object was accomplished. It would, he was satisfied, be generally adopted as soon as it was generally known.
Mr. Millsfrom his own personal observation, confirmed all that had been said in favour of the invention of Mr.

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Parkes. He was persuaded that it would be most advantageous to the country at large.
The motion was then agreed to.

STAGE COACH DRIVERS.
Mr. M. A. Taylorsaid, that the subject to which he had now to draw the attention of the House was one of serious importance. The House was no doubt aware, that, excepting in cases where death ensued, under the present law, a stage-coachman who drove furiously, to the imminent; hazard of life and limb, could scarcely be punished at all; where a coach was over-turned, and the passengers were so injured that death was the ultimate consequence, the punishment upon the proprietors was only a fine of 10 l., which might be mitigated to half the amount. Whatever might be done to improve the forms of stage-coaches, nothing could be effectual in diminishing the prevailing evil until the law applied more severely to the driver. By the measure he intended to propose, he did not mean at all to invade the common-law right of a passenger, who had received a personal injury, to proceed by action against the proprietors, but merely to inflict corporal punishment upon the drivers, in cases of wilful and Culpable negligence or misconduct; in short, that a driver might be indicted as for a misdemeanor, and punished by fine and imprisonment. He moved for leave to bring in a bill "for punishing criminally, Drivers of Stage Coaches and Carriages, for accidents occasioned by their negligence or misconduct."—Leave given.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL.
Lord Althorpmoved for leave to bring in a bill to amend the Insolvent Debtors act. In the present stage he should only advert to two leading distinctions from the present bill which he intended to introduce; the first was, to empower commissioners out of court to inquire into the affairs of the debtor: and the second was, to grant creditors the power of compelling reluctant debtors, when imprisoned, to be released by the act.
Mr. Lockhartwished that the subject should be treated upon as extended a basis as possible, and that provision should be made against a class of prisoners who had formerly taken the benefit of the act, though it was not intended for their relief; he meant those who were confined in consequence of actions for damages, having
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inflicted upon their fellow-creatures severe personal injuries. He could not help observing that, as the case stood at present, persons were brought up and examined in a very slight degree only by the court; and if no one appeared against them, they were discharged. It frequently happened that, by this course of proceeding, man}' were discharged who were little deserving of the benefit of the act. The creditors found that they had lost a great deal of money already; and were unwilling, by appearing, to lose more, besides the sacrifice of much trouble and time. In making these observations, however, he did not mean to advert to the situation of those debtors who now crowded our prisons, and who had been led to expect relief under the enactments of such a bill as that passed during last session. He was very willing that they should take their discharge under it, in the best way they could.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

CATO STREET CONSPIRACY—GEORGE EDWARDS.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, that the question which he now thought it his duty to bring under the consideration of the House was one of the greatest importance, and particularly to the House itself. He might be wrong in the course which he had proposed to himself to pursue; but if he was, the Speaker would no doubt instruct him what was the proper mode of bringing the matter forward. He repeated that he considered it as one in which the House was most deeply concerned. He had come to the determination of treating it as a breach of privilege; and would here very briefly state what were the facts. Seven persons had recently applied to him, in his official capacity of magistrate, for a warrant to take up a man stated to be then resident in Fleet-street, whose name was said to be George Edwards. He immediately went into a private examination of those individuals, with the assistance of a most able and worthy brother magistrate (sir W. Domville). Four of the parties deposed to some very material facts, some of which, affecting the safety of that House, he should now mention; but others, which were detailed at great length, were of too horrible a description for him to repeat. They involved a plot, not merely to effect the destruction of that House, and the hon. members within it, but of one of the highest personages in this kingdom, and

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of his majesty's ministers also. He would, however, confine himself to the facts of the case as they regarded that House. He would read the words of the deposition. They were to this effect:—"Some time in the year 1819, deponent saw a man of the name of Edwards going from one public-house to another, inviting persons to unite with him in the execution of the plots against the government which he intended to bring forward." It then went on to state, that one of his great plots was this:—He said, "that he could bring into the House of Commons six or eight men very readily, and that it was not necessary that they should come in clean." By that expression, he meant that they might easily enter the House with something under their arms; for they could so come into the lobby and other parts of the House with books; no objection would be offered to heir passing on with books under their arms. These books were to have been filled with gun-barrels, cut down to the length of four inches only, which were to be filled with gunpowder, and plugged up at both ends; and these implements being thrown down in the middle of the House, upon some occasion of a full attendance, when it would be in a very crowded state, would explode with great violence, and cause much destruction. The deposition went on to show, that Edwards on one occasion said, "Thistle wood is the boy for us; he's the one to do our work: he will very soon be out of Horsham-gaol." Now the evidence next showed, that two days after, Thistlewood did come out of Horsham-gaol, and he was introduced to this Edwards at the house of Preston the cobler. And that which was the strongest confirmation of the whole statement, and in his mind proved it beyond all doubt, was, that Edwards did get those very books made for the purpose; that he procured the gun-barrels, and had them cut up. At that time, too, he was supplied with money all of a sudden, although, just before, he had not enough to buy a pot of beer, and was compelled to he upon straw. All at once, however, he got supplied with cash, and was enabled to purchase several other weapons of defence, and arms, which the deponents spoke of. Now this was the general substance of the depositions as they regarded that House: as to the other parts, which related to the intended taking off of certain individuals, he had hardly satisfied himself what might
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be the best mode of proceeding; or whether, from the nature of the case, he might be justified in asking the House to indulge him with a committee of secrecy, in which case it would not be necessary for him to proceed with his present observations. The other details, however, which he did not at present feel it his duty to bring before the House, were of a most terrible description, and unfolded plots of the most dreadful character. The persons who had made the depositions were respectable persons, and not at all implicated in the late legal proceedings, as having been evidence either for the crown or for the prisoners. He had had several other persons with him that same morning, who were all ready to swear that they knew Edwards to have been engaged in these plots, from time to time. He had been asked by several individuals, how he intended to proceed in this case; and he could now declare, that his mind was made up to call Edwards before the bar of the House. Whether, however, he should ask for a committee of secrecy, or proceed in any other way, he was ready to bring this important business before them, and he thought that he discharged his duty in so doing. He had not thought it proper to swear those deponents to the truth of their allegations, because all the acts charged against Edwards were stated to have occurred either in the county of Middlesex or the city of Westminster. As he never interfered in such a case he told the parties that they must go before a magistrate either of Westminster or of the county; or else that they must apply for a warrant to lord Sid mouth. He directed them to go to his lordship; and promised that, upon procuring the warrant, he would get it immediately backed, so as to make it operative within the city of London. He thought the thing a matter of such importance, that he took the depositions in charge, himself; and ordered the witnesses to attend him at lord Sid-mouth's immediately. When he arrived at the office, it so happened that his lordship was not there, having left the place only a few minutes before. He left the depositions with a gentleman whom he had now in his eye, and had received an answer; but he did not think proper now to give it. The existence of such a man as this Edwards it was almost impossible to conceive; it was difficult to imagine a man, going about with all this boldness, from public-house to public-house, nay,

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even from one private house to another, framing and discoursing of all these plots. For his own part, however, when he looked at all the facts, he thought it clear, that Edwards had become connected with the Cato street conspirators at a very early period of their meeting together; and he pledged himself, that if the House should think proper to adopt any question upon the subject, he would bring forward such evidence as must convict the man. It was only to be apprehended that he was not, perhaps, in the country, which he might have quitted by this time; otherwise, no doubt, there were hon. gentlemen who were in possession of him, so that he might be produced. He, therefore, felt it his duty, under all the circumstances, to move, "That George Edwards do forthwith attend at the bar of this House."
Mr. Bathurstobserved, that the only question for the House to determine was, whether that which had been stated by the worthy alderman called upon them to take up the matter as a breach of privilege. The motion did not require any other reference to the circumstances which had been described by the worthy alderman than this—could those circumstances be construed into a breach of privilege? Now really he besought the House to consider what sort of precedent they would establish, if they acquiesced in the worthy alderman's motion. Here was a man, who, according to the worthy alderman, was an accomplice, or rather a principal, in the conspiracy for which several unfortunate persons had lately forfeited their lives. According to the worthy alderman, that man was deeply implicated in the crime for which those persons had suffered and if the motion was agreed to, he would be called to the bar to be examined on a charge of having committed a breach of privilege, when, if the allegations of the worthy alderman were borne out by the fact, he would be found to have committed an overt act of treason. If any other course could be adopted in which the case might be fairly investigated, he would concur in it; but if the worthy alderman really believed that the individual in question had projected the attempt against that House which had been described, he would recommend the worthy alderman to withdraw a motion for calling that individual to the bar, in the supposition that he would there charge himself with such an offence.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, he certainly set out with intimating that he saw great difficulties in this question; and from his inexperience in that House it was naturally to be expected that he should feel that uncertainty, in a case of this kind, which those of greater parliamentary knowledge would not experience. He was, indeed, quite happy to hear the right hon. gentleman observe, that if the business were brought before the House properly, the House would properly entertain it. He thought it right to state that he had applied to another quarter, to get the individual in question prosecuted, but in that application he had been disappointed [Hear, hear!]]. He had already stated, that he did not think proper to read the answer which he had received when he had felt it his duty to carry the evidence which had been submitted to him, to the office of the home department. He was certainly not satisfied with that determination. Several of the deponents were persons not at all implicated in the late transactions; and their evidence was, in his opinion, fully sufficient to convict the person in question. Still, however, he had been told in another quarter, that it was not so, although the depositions contained matter, which, of course, he had not communicated to the House, but which would make them shudder if the heard it. The impression on his mind certainly was, that the accused person should be taken up. He took it for granted that the gentlemen opposite knew where that person was to be found, and that he could not escape. Having him in their possession—having it in their power to bring him forward, he thought they ought immediately to do so. Edwards was charged with being the sole promoter of the treasonable conspiracy which had been formed. It was declared to be his practice to lay hold of all the desperate characters whom he could find, and to bring them into his diabolical practices. He thought he could safely pledge himself to prove by indisputable evidence that Edwards was the sole plotter and founder of the Cato-street conspiracy. He had discharged his duty by bringing the subject under the consideration of the House. After what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, he should certainly be disposed to withdraw his motion, although he was not prepared to propose any other course of proceeding
Mr. Hume,as he understood from the

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worthy alderman, that it was not the intention of his majesty's ministers to call the individual in question to account, considered that the only chance of having the affair investigated was by an appeal to the House of Commons, and therefore he trusted the worthy alderman would not withdraw his motion. There were two facts which seemed to him to call imperatively for inquiry. It appeared by the deposition, that the individual in question did go from house to house, carrying hand grenades and arms; and that not eight and forty hours before the 23rd of February, he urged a man of the name of Chambers to enter into the plot, assuring him that all the necessary instruments of destruction were perfectly prepared. The other and more important fact was, that it appeared, that being at one time wholly destitute of money, he became all at once quite flush, bought quantities of arms and ammunition, and furnished other means of urging forward the purpose of the conspiracy. An inquiry by that House would elicit what the ends of justice required to be disclosed, namely by whom the person in question had been supplied. It would also ascertain—what was strongly suspected to be the case—that the existence of the plot was known to many persons before the time of its public detection. These were points which could not be elucidated in a court of justice. At least he hoped that ministers, who were no doubt in possession of the individual, would pledge themselves that he should not be permitted to leave the country until some means were taken of coming at the truth. He trusted, therefore, that the worthy alderman would not withdraw his motion unless such a pledge was given.
Mr. Broughamconfessed that he wished the worthy alderman would take the advice of the right hon. gentleman rather than that of his hon. friend; and that he would withdraw his motion. But he begged to be by no means understood to join in the expression of levity, which, very much to his surprise and pain, had been drawn from some hon. members by the grave and extraordinary statements which had been made—statements which, in his opinion, were not at all of a character to provoke laughter. He was certainly not disposed to say that the present was precisely an occasion on which it was fitting for the House to resort to the law of privilege; but at the same time, if the
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alleged facts were true, he could have no more doubt than he had of his existence, that it was in contemplation to commit the grossest breach of privilege, or that which was ten thousand times worse than any breach of privilege—the destruction of one of the Houses of Parliament. This was a branch of high treason. If perpetrated, it was by the law high treason; if plotted, and not carried into actual execution, it was a high misdemeanor. The worthy alderman was in nowise open to ridicule for calling on the House to consider that as a breach of privilege, an inquiry into which, as the higher offence, he had been unable to procure. When any person was called to the bar for a libel on the House, he was required to inculpate himself. But certainly he did not think it would be a discreet use of the law of privilege to call on the individual in question as if he were merely charged with such an offence as a libel. But was the act with which that person was charged nothing? Was it no offence? Was he not accused in the depositions described by the worthy alderman of originating a serious plot, the object of which was, to come with hand grenades and other combustible matters, and attack the House of Commons when full of members? Good God! Was that a subject for ridicule and levity? When a conspiracy was, detected, the purpose of which was to throw hand grenades into the houses of ministers, it was held to be high treason, and men lost their lives for having joined in it. Was the House of Commons to listen with levity and impatience to the disclosure of a similar intention with respect to themselves? The sooner that feeling was got rid of the better. He supported the right hon. gentleman's recommendation to the worthy alderman to withdraw his motion, because he did not think that it was in a fit and proper shape; and by no means because he did not think that any thing further need be done in the business. On the contrary, it appeared to him to be extremely material that the House should take some step to procure the information to which the worthy alderman had furnished a clue. And why Because there was evidently no other way of obtaining justice. Because the worthy alderman, corresponding in his capacity of magistrate with the noble lord at the head of the home department, had laid before that noble lord the evidence which he had

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described, and had received from that noble lord an answer that it was not deemed proper to bring Edwards to trial at all. He again begged he might not be mistaken. He by no means said that it would have been proper to try Edwards for high treason. He by no means said that that man's evidence had not been wisely acted on, or that he himself had not been prudently employed. He denied the truth of some of the worthy alderman's statements on the subject. He denied that Edwards was the sole instigator of the Cato-street. conspiracy. He believed that there were other persons at least as deeply implicated. But be believed that Edwards, having been employed by government as a spy, like other persons who had on former occasions acted in that capacity, was not satisfied with merely giving information, and that he employed himself in inciting persons, already guilty, into the commission of further crimes. He by no means blamed government for employing Edwards as a spy; or for acting on his information; or for withholding him as a witness; or for abstaining from prosecuting him. For those four things he did not blame them. As long as such men as Thistle-wood and the others existed, government were, in his opinion, not only justified in employing persons to watch their proceedings, but would be highly culpable if they neglected to do so. The necessity for the employment of spies was lamentable; but so was the employment of the executioner of the law. As long as crimes continued to be perpetrated, so long must they continue to be punished. Both occupations were odious; but in his opinion no man was entitled to blame government for employing the odious informer who was not prepared to blame them equally for employing the odious executioner. There was, however, one limitation to this doctrine. He who employed spies took upon himself a most difficult and delicate and responsible office. He was deeply answerable to the country and to the administration of justice, if he did not take the greatest care to select such men as would only give information, and not in-instigate to the commission of crime. The existence of such wretches as Thistle wood and Ings rendered the employment of spies necessary; but let it be at the same time remembered, that the existence of such wretches as Thistle wood and Ings rendered the employment of instigators to
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crime equally unnecessary. Having explained himself so far, the House would perhaps permit him to add, that although he did not blame government cither for having employed Edwards as a spy—for having acted on his information—for having withdrawn him as a witness—or for having abstained from prosecuting him—yet, if it did appear from the evidence now adduced, that that individual went beyond his commission as an informer, that he employed himself as an instigator, and that he incited others to the perpetration of a separate and grave offence, not comprehended in the acts which had been the recent subject of criminal investigation, justice would not be satisfied unless he was brought to trial for such new and serious offence, or unless very ample grounds were stated to the House for waving such a proceeding.
Mr. Canningsaid, that whatever might be the ultimate decision of the House on the subject, whether they would determine on entering into the investigation of it or not, there was one point on which all must agree, namely the inutility of discussing it at a time, and on a question, the decision of which could lead to no satisfactory result. The hon. and learned gentleman seemed to have collected what he was sure the House had not, namely, that there was a disposition on the part of some honourable members to treat the whole affair with levity and ridicule. Really he had not seen any such disposition. He was sure that no such disposition had been manifested, either by himself or his honourable friends about him. As little Could he plead guilty to the other charge, of a pre-disposition to accuse the hon. and learned gentleman of joining the popular cry against informers—a subject on which the hon. and learned gentleman had just made the most just and manly observations. He could assure the hon. and learned gentleman, that he never entertained such a pre-disposition; and if he had, it must have been entirely removed by the hon. and learned gentleman's candid statement of his opinion. On that statement, without wishing to add a single word to it, he was perfectly content to rest the defence, not only of the present or of any particular government, but of all governments that had ever existed in this or in any other civilized country, for taking the means which circumstances rendered necessary, to defeat

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by the prostitution of wicked men, the plots of men as wicked. All that he rose for, was to submit to the worthy alderman, as the motion in its present shape could not be usefully discussed, the expediency of not pressing it at the present time. It would be for the I worthy alderman to consider whether or I not he would bring the subject again before the House in some other form. On the expediency or inexpediency of such a proceeding, he would not venture to offer any opinion. He only entreated the House not to enter into a discussion wholly, unnecessary at the present moment, and from which no beneficial result could by possibility ensue.
Mr. Alderman Woodexpressed his willingness to withdraw the motion. He begged, however, to say, that he thought in the mariner in which he introduced it, he had avoided any thing justly exceptionable. He had abstained from reading the deposition, for he should be sorry that the dreadful allegations which it contained should at present go forth to the world; and he had therefore confined himself to a description of that part of it. which most nearly touched the House. At the present moment he was not prepared to bring the motion forward in another shape, but he thought he should do so in the course of a day or two, and that he should move for the appointment of a secret committee to investigate the case.
Mr. Canningdisclaimed any intention of imputing the slightest blame to the worthy alderman. He certainly disagreed with the worthy alderman as to the expediency of his motion, but he saw nothing whatever to criticise in the manner in which it had been brought forward.
The motion was then withdrawn.

CIVIL LIST.
The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Civil List acts,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he would, on this occasion, merely move a series of resolutions relative to the civil list, on the understanding which had previously taken place, that the question should be discussed on the bringing up of the report on Friday next. He then moved, "That it is the opinion of this committee, that for the support of his majesty's household, and of the honour and dignity of the crown, there be granted
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to his majesty, during his life, in that part of the United Kingdom called England, a revenue of 850,000 l. to commence from the demise of his late majesty;—and that there be granted, for the like purpose, in that part of the United Kingdom called Ireland, a revenue of 207,000 l. to commence from the same time."
Sir H. Parnellwas of opinion, that the sum now proposed was too large to permit the House to come to a vote on it at once, as a mere matter of course. He conceived, that, before they were called on to grant such a sum, papers should be laid before the House for their information. It appeared to him that they did not possess that extent of knowledge on this subject which would enable them, in considering the question, to do their duty to the country. They were directed, by the Speech from the throne, to provide for the civil government, and for his majesty's household. They were also informed that the state of the hereditary revenues was to be considered by parliament. Now it appeared to him, that they ought not to discuss those important matters of finance without full information. They ought to know, specifically, what the expenses of the civil government amounted to. That would afford an excellent opportunity to the House for carrying into effect that retrenchment which was necessary in the present state of the finances of the country. With respect to the household, it was improper, he thought, to continue a system, against which so many objections had been made by the highest authority. When he said this, he need only allude to the celebrated speech of Mr. Burke. As to the hereditary revenues, it was a grave matter of consideration by what mode those revenues could be made productive. There was a considerable expenditure incurred in their collection, and opinions had been stated by the committee of finance, that the House had an opportunity of making great savings under that head. Other matters ought also to be brought under the consideration of the House; for instance, the revenues derivable from the duchy of Lancaster and the principality of Wales. All these matters should be locked into before the House did any thing with reference to these particular resolutions. He knew not what papers might be necessary to enable him to take a just view of the subject; but, undoubtedly, a considerable number was

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wanted; and, if time were given, he and others would come down prepared to ask for those documents which would afford the House very great assistance.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was generally understood that, in the first instance, the resolutions would be agreed to without observation, leaving the discussion on them to a future period.—The number of members who had left the House clearly proved that this feeling generally prevailed.
Colonel Daviesfully understood, and so did the whole House, that the arrangement of the civil-list was to proceed on the basis of the act of 1816. That arrangement provided a sum of 1,063,000 l. a-year. From it was to be deducted the Windsor establishment, the allowances to his late majesty's privy purse, &c.; and, therefore it ought to be estimated at 500,000 l., instead of upwards of 1,100,000.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that certain English allowances must be confirmed and continued; but still, after making the deductions alluded to by the hon. gentleman there would be a clear saving to the public, except so far as it might be deemed proper hereafter to make some alteration.
Colonel Daviessaid, his having fallen into this error was an additional argument in favour of delay. It showed how unprepared members were on this subject, and, he trusted, therefore that ministers would not press it forward.
Mr. Canningsaid, the general understanding of the House was, that these resolutions should pass without discussion, and that the debate should be taken on the report. He was aware, in strict argument, that there was nothing in this to bind gentlemen from considering the question; but if, on every occasion, the feeling and opinion of each individual in the House were to be taken on a point of this kind, there would be an end of courteous understanding and accommodation. He was sure the right hon. gentleman opposite would bear him out when he said that it was thought much more convenient not to take the debate in this stage of the proceeding. He was quite convinced that neither his right. hon. friend, nor any other person in the situation of a responsible minister, would offer, for permanent settlement, not a proposal of his own, but of those whom he had consulted, without giving a fair opportunity for the discussion of its merits. If there were gentlemen
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present who were desirous not to be considered parties to the regulation of which he had spoken, they might proceed with the debate to-night, without prejudice to that which was reserved for a future day.
Mr. Tierneyfelt himself called on to draw the attention of the House to what had passed on a former occasion. He was the person who put certain questions to the chancellor of the exchequer. He asked, whether it was the right hon. gentleman's intention, previously to the introduction of the resolutions, to refer any papers to the House, as the ground-work of that which he meant to propose? The right hon. gentleman answered, that no such mode of proceeding was in contemplation, but that he meant at once to proceed by way of resolution, and by that means to point out to parliament the objects he had in view. He (Mr. T.) stated that it was a matter of great importance, and, therefore, he was desirous not to go to the detail unprepared. He, in consequence, suggested, that, when the resolutions were proposed, and the statement of the right hon. gentleman was laid before them, nothing should be done to provoke a debate, but that the House should merely be put in possession of the line which government intended to pursue-On this occasion, he confessed he felt disappointed that the right hon. gentleman had not declared the ground on which he meant to proceed, instead of proposing a resolution having for its object the application of a gross sum. In this state of things, no gentleman was bound to abstain from debating the question now; and he appealed to the other side of the House, as well as to his own, whether the understanding amounted to any thing more than he had stated. He regretted that the right hon. gentleman had not coupled his proposition with some statement of the grounds on which he meant to act. However, in agreeing to the resolution now, he did not consider himself bound to take any particular course at a future day. When that period arrived, it would be open to any gentleman to move an amendment, to the proposition of the chancellor of the exchequer. One question he would now ask. The civil list was, he understood, to be settled on the basis of the settlement of 1816. Were no other deductions to be made in the new arrangement but the sum applicable to the maintenance of the establishment at Windsor—the sum applicable to the privy

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purse—and the sum applicable to the payment of the Custos? Were these the only sums to be deducted? and were the other charges to remain precisely as they were in 1816?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the right hon. gentleman had accurately conceived the purport of the resolution before the House. It referred to the whole revenue granted in 1816, with the exception of the expense of the Windsor establishment, 60,000 l. for the privy purse, and 10,000 l. given to the Custos. The total saving would be 130,000 l., excepting a temporary charge for his late majesty's servants.
Mr. Tierneyasked, what became of the sum of 58,000 l. which was paid to her late majesty?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the provision for her late majesty came from the consolidated fund, independent of the civil list.
Lord Archibald Hamiltonsaid, he was anxious to know what the views of ministers were on the whole subject, before he acted on a part of it, particularly on that part which he considered as by far the most critical. He spoke with reference to the queen. He wished to know in what proportion her majesty was to be provided for; he wished to know in what manner the gentlemen opposite meant to introduce that part of the civil list at all to their consideration. At that moment her income had wholly ceased, she had no subsistence. He did not mean to say any thing to promote premature discussion. He would not, at present, discuss so delicate a topic as that which he had glanced at, because it would be very embarrassing to him as well as to the House. At the same time, he feared that the course they were now pursuing would prevent him from introducing it at a future period. If he were called on to vote these resolutions to-day, and to debate them when the report was brought up, be might be told that that was the time for considering the details, and not for arguing on the merits and principles of the system. If, however, the whole subject would be open for discussion at a future period, lie had no objection to let the resolutions pass.
Mr. Canningsaid, that undoubtedly the noble lord would find every point connected with the arrangement of this question open to discussion, not, only with reference to form, but to sense and un-
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derstanding, whenever the subject was hereafter brought forward. He was perfectly right in supposing that the present was the proper stage for explaining the scope and object of the measure, but the departure from form did not rest with his (Mr. C. s) side of the House. The ordinary course would be to enter into the whole plan and object of government; but it was proposed to ministers to p3ss over this whole stage without discussion, in order to convenience gentlemen opposite, and to take the debate on the report. It was a little hard, therefore, to ask ministers to account for the course that had been pursued. They, in courtesy, adopted the mode of proceeding that had been pointed out to them. It would be also a little hard to refuse his right hon. friend the vote this day because he had agreed to an understanding, proposed by the other side, not to discuss the question now. He was sure the noble lord did not mean to take an unfair advantage of ministers, and they had as little idea to take any advantage of him. Many opportunities would occur when those resolutions were proceeding through their different stages, and the bills founded on them were in progress through the House, to go at length both into the detail and principle of the question.
Lord A. Hamiltonexpressed himself satisfied by this explanation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the provision for the queen might be charged on the consolidated fund, in the same way as had been done with respect to her late majesty.
Mr. Humedid not approve of the plan now proposed. In 1815-16, when an inquiry into the civil list was called for, it was shut out, and they were then told that a time would occur when it would be proper to investigate the hereditary revenues, and those branches over which the House had no control. The House had therefore a right to take into consideration the state of the king's separate hereditary revenue; the revenue, for instance, derived from Scotland, which produced 80,000 l. or.90,000 l.; the duties of the Admiralty; the sums received from the 4f per cent duties; and the monies collected in Gibraltar. Consistently with the speech from the throne, the estimates laid before the House should be of the most economical description; but he would contend that the estimates now submitted to their consideration were of

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the most extravagant kind. The report I of the finance committee said, that the 56th of Geo. 3rd, fixed the different estimates. It was then declared, that the ensuing income should be estimated on an average of the three last years, 1813, 1814, and 1815—three years of the most extravagant expenditure that was to be found in the annals of British finance. He therefore argued, that in proposing to the House to adopt the extravagant estimate of 1816, which was admitted to be greater than that of 1813, 1814, 1815, ministers were not attending to the directions of his majesty, and were neglecting a system of economy which ought to be pursued in every department of the state. He wished to know what the expenditure was, under different items, since the passing of the act of 1816; he should also wish to be informed what the total amount of the expenditure for the civil government of this country was; because they were now going to vote, under the single head of "Civil List," a sum that did not. in point of fact, amount to more than one-fourth of the civil expenditure. He alluded to all those items that were defrayed from the civil list, at the accession of his late majesty's. By various acts passed since that period, the civil list had been freed from a charge of 600,000 l.; and notwithstanding that, they were called on to grant a greater sum than was voted at the accession of his late majesty. This, in the present state of the country, was highly improper. Instead of such a proceeding, he had expected that the right hon. gentleman would have submitted a proposal of retrenchment beginning with his majesty, and going on to reduce the salary of every public officer of the country. Such was tire situation of the finances, that unless a considerable reduction was made in the expenditure of the country, it was impossible they could go on without flying from speculation to speculation, and thus adding to the immense debt by which the country was weighed down. Much as he admired the system of this country, he thought there was nothing that could not be bought too dear; and he believed that the civil government of this country was too dear. Every one who wished for a reduction of his expenses, reduced first his own establishment, and began by curtailing the expenses of his servants. We were in the state of a bankrupt, and if ministers meant any thing by economy, they ought to be-
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gin with the first great establishment in the country. The civil list had increased from year to year, and the average of 1816 was greater than that of the three preceding years. That was the greatest period of expenditure; and the reduction in the expenditure, together with the return to cash payments, had since increased the value of money, some said 30 per cent, and he believed at least 25 per cent. To propose, therefore, to give 850,000 l., as in 1816, was equivalent to proposing 1,000,000 l. sterling now. To begin with the first establishment in the country was, therefore, the duty of ministers. Although they were above the example of any neighbouring country, yet they would do well to consider, that in a neighbouring country ministers had proposed such a reduction as ministers in this country ought now to adopt. If ministers did not act so, they would in fact add 250,000 l. to the establishment of 1816. The committees of 1804, 1812, and 1816, had ascribed the increase of expense in his majesty's household to the rise of prices of all kinds. A reduction of prices would be the necessary consequence of a return to cash payments, and therefore the establishment of the civil list ought to be accordingly reduced. He, for one, considered the present mode of proceeding wrong in principle; it was not doing justice to the House or to the county. After reducing his majesty's establishment, the salary of every individual ought to be proportionally reduced. Now they had it in their own power to effect this reduction; and if they availed themselves properly of the opportunity, although he did not expect such a relief as some contemplated, he did believe that considerable relief could be afforded to the country. So far, therefore, from keeping their pledge to that House and to the country, ministers had violated it to both. All he could do was to protest against such a proceeding. He approved highly of what the hon. member for Win chelas had said the first night on the subject of the hereditary revenues; for no money ought to be given to the Crown but what was under the control of that House. Inquiry had formerly been resisted upon this subject; and it was always said to them, "Wait till a change takes place, and then you may enter freely into the inquiry,." This had been the bargain made with the House; but, now that the change had taken place, no inquiry was allowed.
Sir H. Parnellthought, that as frequent opportunities ought to be given for discussing this subject, the report ought to be recommitted after the subject should have been debated. This was the only mode of doing justice to a question involving so many details. Great prejudice and injury to the public would arise from any other mode of proceeding. He certainly would have opposed the accommodation now acted upon, if he had been in the House when it was agreed to. Instead of considering this subject in a committee of the whole House, which the right hon. gentleman would not allow, all the papers and documents on the subject ought, in his opinion, to have been referred to a select committee.
Mr. Broughamrose to put his hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, right. There were other branches of revenue, besides the hereditary revenues of the Crown, which he wished to see accounted for. The hereditary revenues, his hon. friend must be aware, his majesty had been graciously pleased to give up to the consideration of parliament. But there were others, such as the Scotch revenue, which was indeed very small, that had been alluded to by him. He conceived, as to the accommodation, that it was only a parliamentary mode of introducing the resolutions into the House, in order to get them printed. He approved of the proposal of the hon. baronet to have the report recommitted, but he considered himself bound not to object to the mode of proceeding at present proposed.
The resolution was agreed to, as were the following: 2. "That the said revenue for the support of his majesty's hous-hold, and of the honour and dignity of the Crown, be charged upon, and made payable out of, the consolidated fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. 3. That the several hereditary revenues in that part of the United Kingdom called England, which, by an act of the first year of his late majesty's reign, were, during his said majesty's life, carried to and made part of the aggregate fund, and have since, under the act of the twenty-seventh year of his late majesty's reign, been carried to and made a part of the consolidated fund of Great Britain; and that the several hereditary revenues in that part of the United Kingdom called Ireland, which, by an act of the parliament of Ireland made in the thirty-third year of his late majesty's
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reign, were carried to and made a part of the consolidated fund in Ireland, shall, from the said demise, and during the life of his present majesty, be carried to the account of the consolidated fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland."