Sitting of 21 June 1820

MUTINY BILL.
Earl Grosvenorrose, on the order of the day for the third reading of the Mutiny bill. Before he made the motion of which he had given notice, for a reduction of the present number

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of the army, he thought it necessary to say a few words; for he was by no means satisfied as to the propriety of the late increase, by any thing which had been stated in its defence. Their lordships ought to be well convinced of the necessity of maintaining such a force as that proposed by the present bill before they agreed to vote it. When, however, he considered that, among the other reasons for objecting to the measure, the matter of discontent in the army itself would be diminished by a reduction he could feel little hesitation in bringing forward the motion he was about to make. He should not enter into any discussion of the reports which were circulated on the cause of the! discontents. He would only say, that he could not suppose it true that the discontents which had broken out among a part of the military were owing to their not receiving an extra allowance, which it had been the practice to give them, not in war, but in peace. That such a thing should have been done without the sanction of parliament, or even that any allowance at all should be given for such a purpose as that alluded to was said to have been granted, appeared to him very extraordinary. He could rather suppose that a case of discontent might have arisen from the troops usually quartered in the metropolis being called upon to perform more than their ordinary duty. But when he considered the enormous amount of the present army, he could not but see how easily this cause might have been avoided. When there, were so many other corps which might be employed on any particular service, instead of the guards, there could be no difficulty in removing this difficulty. In despotic countries, such disturbances in a military force would be attended by very serious consequences; but, to whatever extent they might have gone, they occasioned no alarm to his mind. When he considered that this was a country possessing a free government, and that the people were sincerely attached to the constitution, whatever alarm other governments might feel under such circumstances, he saw no ground for any serious apprehension here. He was certainly the less disposed to alarm, because, in his mind he never had separated the soldier from the citizen, though he was sorry to say that, from many things which had occurred it appeared to be the wish of some persons to dissolve that connexion. But, to proceed
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to the more immediate subject of his motion; their lordships were aware that three years ago it was determined, even by ministers themselves, that the army should be reduced to the state in which it was in 1792. Why this period was chosen instead of 1786 he did not know; the latter he thought would have afforded the most proper example, for the year 1792 was a year in which the state of Europe rendered war probable. The force at present maintained, was, however, double that of 1792, and about triple that of 1786. But three years ago, when ministers determined on this reduction, the discontents of the country were, according to their own showing greater than any that existed now. Had they not considered the discontents to be of the most serious nature, they certainly would not have proposed that iron law, the suspension of the; Habeas Corpus act, which their lordships had been induced to pass. If they thought it right to reduce the military force at that time, there surely appeared nothing like discontent at present to justify an increase. It had been asserted, that every endeavour was made to reduce the expense of the army as low as possible, and yet the charge was not less than 10,000,000 l. Every man in the service cost rather more than 100 l. annually, which was a most enormous charge, and proved the great extravagance of the system. The force of the army was not only double what it was in 1792, but the amount of the expenditure was, in several important articles greater at present than it had been in the third year of the war. The increase which had been made in the army led to an increase in the number of barracks—a measure which he had always looked at with jealousy. But if it were necessary to increase the barracks, they surely need not be augmented to the great extent to which they were carried. Nearly one hundred had been built in different parts of the country. He must confess, however, that he believed it was scarcely possible for government to resist many of the applications made to then for building barracks, though he knew of instances in which they were made of most ludicrous grounds. The applications he knew were chiefly made by country magistrates, who were clergymen, and in general very respectable persons, but misled by the erroneous views they entertained. Most of these magistrates were what was considered extremely loyal; by which was

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meant exceedingly attached to the system of the present ministers. They regarded every man who differed from their political opinions, as disaffected and seditious. If the people around them thought some reform necessary, if they ventured, for instance, to say that the borough of Grampound was corrupt and ought to be disfranchised—these magistrates called them radicals, and were often led to exercise an unnecessary severity. It was not surprising that the people then became irritated. They called the magistrates tyrants, and the magistrates, observing the discontents they had provoked, asked for the aid of a military force. It ought to be the study of government to remove the cause of discontents, instead of increasing the military force, which could only serve to increase them. Whenever there was much dissatisfaction, great misrule had in general given cause for it. The present amount of the army was between 91,000 and 92,000. He should propose to take from it 11,910, which would leave it 80,000. When their lordships recollected the number of the militia and yeomanry kept on foot, they could not but admit that the standing army, so reduced, would be sufficient. He concluded by moving an amendment, which had for its object to reduce the army 11,910 men.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that with regard to the circumstances to which the noble earl had alluded in the commencement of his speech, he must observe, that the reports respecting those circumstances had been grossly exaggerated. He had also the satisfaction to state, that any dissatisfaction which prevailed had now completely subsided; and he could assure the noble earl that it was not to be ascribed to any of the causes to which he had alluded. At the same time, he could not but add, that he thought the noble earl would have acted more prudently if, considering the state in which the affair now was, he had refrained from saying any thing on the subject. With regard to the noble earl's amendment, he felt himself bound to oppose it, though he must observe that it was with as much regret as could be felt by any man that he agreed to recommend the insertion of the words in his majesty's speech at the opening of the session relative to the increase of the military force. No man could have been more indisposed than he was to make any addition to the army, until he was convinced that the increase was necessary to
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the internal peace and good order of the country. When the state of the country in the end of the last and the beginning of the present year was impartially considered, it was impossible not to admit the necessity of the augmentation.
The amendment was negatived, and the bill passed.

THE QUEEN.
Mr. Wilberforcehaving been called on by the Speaker, an interval of several minutes elapsed before he made his appearance. When he at length entered the House, he rose and observed, that he should certainly have persevered in bringing the subject of his promised motion before the House that day, but for some cause which it was not in his power to avoid. The fact was, that since the House separated last night, circumstances had taken place which rendered it necessary for him to vary the motion which he had intended to make. He must add, that he made his present application with the most sincere sorrow; but, considering this as perhaps the only means now left of avoiding that fatal inquiry which presented so many lamentable consequences—he would say, so many horrors—to his mind, he could not but hope that the House would excuse him for asking his noble friend to give him another day for the bringing on of his motion—[Loud cries of "No, no."] He was sure that, how great soever might be the wish of any gentleman—and a very natural one it was—that this important question should no longer remain in suspense, he should hold himself in contempt, if he could even suppose himself to be actuated by temporary motives in a case which so deeply involved the honour of the Crown and the interests of the people. His motives, however, were of so serious a character a to justify the application he now made.
Lord Castlereaghdeeply regretted that his hon. friend should have been induced by any motives—which, although he had not explained them, and though they were not before the House, he could well conceive the hon. gentleman had good reasons for not explaining—to call on him to postpone that motion which, in point of form, would not take precedence of his hon. friend's. For himself, he should wish the hon. gentleman to bring his motion on to-morrow, rather than any thing should

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prevent its coming on conformably to his own wishes. Certainly he did feel, without pressing any unfair inquiry into his hon. friend's motives for this delay, that on public and private grounds he might give him credit for the gravity of those motives, and that the House might accede to his request upon that principle of accommodation which parliament had always recognised as the most desirable to be acted on in such cases. Under these circumstances he should think that he departed from those principles which had actuated the conduct of his majesty's government, if he pressed the hon. gentleman to go farther into an explanation of his motives in demanding this delay, or if he did not add that he felt satisfied that every reasonable expedient, every possible measure had been resorted to by the hon. gentleman in order to obviate the necessity for such an application: but he was quite sure, while he was thus ready to admit that application, that the hon. gentleman must be aware of the great public evil which must result from any delay (beyond one of this kind which had been solicited upon public grounds), in consequence of the tendency which the many difficulties of this peculiar case had to agitate the public mind. Under all the many difficulties which the circumstances of the case had thrown around it, it was yet most imperative that it should now be proceeded in. He submitted to the request of his hon. friend, but he must conjure and entreat him not to be induced, by any consideration, to delay his motion beyond to-morrow, for he was sure that the evils of delay were incalculable. If the House were not already aware of its disadvantages, he could assure, the hon. gentleman such a call for inquiry existed upon all sides, that delay beyond to-morrow would be more likely to be injurious than beneficial in its results.
Mr. Wilberforcebegged leave to say, in answer to what had fallen from the noble lord, who had given him credit for the propriety of his motives, that he would explain them fully to-morrow.
Lord Castlereaghfelt assured, that his hon. friend could not suppose, that he wished him to explain them at present, or that he did not at all times give him entire credit for the soundness of his motives.
Lord A. Hamiltonbegged to ask the hon. gentleman whether he had any objection now to state what would be the grounds of the motion postponed until to-
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morrow. He did not ask this question from any idle curiosity, but because he wished also to submit a motion upon the subject, and therefore was desirous to ascertain whether he should bring it forward as an amendment upon that of the hon. gentleman, or in what other way.
Mr. Wilberforcehad that respect for the character of the noble lord which would induce him at all times to give him every satisfaction in his power; and if he were willing to converse with him in private upon the subject, he should have no objection to give him the explanation, provided no other use were made of it. From what he had stated, the House would suppose that there might be circumstances which would vary his motion in some shape. He would add, that what had passed in the course of yesterday, had rather confirmed than altered his determination not to make any disclosure of the grounds of his motion.
Mr. Tierneyowned that he had very great difficulty in agreeing to this application from the hon. member for Bramber; because, with as much anxiety as any other gentleman could possibly feel, that any reasonable delay should be granted, he thought that their present mode of proceeding was incompatible with the dignity of the House. They were placed in a situation perfectly unexampled. They had received a message from tile Crown, accompanied by papers which were laid upon the table; they had answered that message by saying that they would take it into immediate consideration. In consequence of a motion of his hon. friend, an adjournment was agreed to; negotiations in the meanwhile were entered into, which continued nearly a fortnight. At the end of that time the noble lord brought down the result of them; and now his hon. friend begged another day in order to see what he could do. When were these adjournments to stop? Other hon. gentlemen might have similar motions to propose, and a noble lord had just given notice that it was his intention to submit one to-morrow connected with this subject. In the meanwhile the king's message was allowed to sleep, in a manner which was not very respectful to the Crown. Whether the noble lord (Castlereagh) himself would or would not to-morrow be disposed to concede a farther adjournment, if called for, he (Mr. Tierney) would then take the sense of the House on the propriety of any farther adjournment beyond that day.
Lord A. Hamiltonsaid, he intended tomorrow to Submit a motion for the production of the original order in council under which her majesty's name was erased from the liturgy.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that if he rightly understood the hon. member for Bramber, he had contended, either that the House must admit his motion, or, as the necessary consequence of its rejection, must proceed with the inquiry. If it were so, he did think that one single day's delay could not be denied to his hon. friend; but then it would be clearly understood, that if that motion failed, the House would immediately proceed to the inquiry. Under all these circumstances, he would cheerfully accede to the proposed delay. He did hope and trust, however, that no circumstances would prevent his hon. friend from proceeding to-morrow; for he could assure the House that whatever anxiety was manifested on the part of his majesty's ministers, that no possible protraction of this business should occur: her majesty and her legal advisers were, on their part, equally anxious that no delay should be interposed.
Mr. Scarlettunderstood the hon. gentleman's motion to be one branch of ah alternative, of which the other branch was an inquiry; but he could not agree with his hon. and learned friend that if that motion were rejected, no alternative but that inquiry was left; for, whatever might be the judgment of the House upon the case before them, he should still think that that sort of inquiry which had been proposed by ministers, and which was the only measure yet submitted to parliament by them, was one which the House never could be induced to adopt. It was so unconstitutional, that he conceived the House never would enter upon it.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that his hon. and learned friend seemed to forget that he (Mr. B.) had been stating, not his own sentiment as to any alternative between the motion of the hon. member for Bramber and an inquiry, but what was his understanding of the views entertained by that hon. gentleman. Did it follow that, because he stated such to be his notion upon the subject, he therefore necessarily concurred in those views?, It was a motion which, for any thing his hon. and learned friend knew, he (Mr. B.) might mean to oppose, and it was one which, in effect, he did last night give, notice of his intention to oppose [Hear!].
Here the conversation was dropped; and the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate on the king's message was discharged, and a new order made for to-morrow.