Sitting of 19 June 1820

MILITARY DISTURBANCE.
Lord Nugentobserved, that it was his intention to have asked a question of the noble secretary of War had he been in his place. As that noble lord was absent, he should beg to ask his majesty's judge advocate the same question. He had learned that the late disturbance amongst a portion of the guards was attributed to the failure in issuing a certain rate of allowance which I was called riot money. Recollecting that a very considerable allowance, both of bounty and pay, was made to the soldiers, he could not recognise the propriety of any increase when they were called upon for duty in any service. Knowing also, that if they were ordered to march for foreign service no such increased rate of allowance was either given or expected, by what rule should it be granted when employed against their fellow-citizens? As a very important question stood for discussion that night, he should hot enlarge upon the point at present; but he wished to; hear from his majesty's judge advocate how long it had been the practice of the; government to issue the increased allowance of riot money.
Mr. Beckettsaid, he should be glad to give the noble lord a distinct answer, but he was only able at present to state, that such arrangements were made by the secretary at war.

COMMUNICATIONS ON THE PART OF THE QUEEN, WITH HIS MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT.
Lord Castlereagh presented by his Majesty's command, the following Papers relating to the Queen:

COMMUNICATIONS ON THE PART OF THE QUEEN WITH HIS MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT.
NO. 1.—Communication from the Queen to the Earl of Liverpool.
The Queen commands Mr. Brougham to inform lord Liverpool, that she has directed her most serious attention to the declared sense of parliament, as to the propriety of some amicable adjustment of existing differences being attempted; and submitting to that high authority with the gratitude due to
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the protection she has always received from it, her majesty no longer waits for a communication from the ministers of the Crown, but commands Mr. Brougham to announce her own readiness to consider any arrangement that can be suggested consistent with her dignity and honour.
One o'clock, Friday, 9th June, 1820.
No. 2.—The Earl of Liverpool, in answer to the Communication from the Queen, on the same day.
Lord Liverpool has had the honour of receiving the queen's communication of this day; and begs leave to acquaint her majesty, that a memorandum delivered by lord Liverpool to Mr. Brougham on the 15th April last, contains the propositions, which lord Liverpool was commanded by the king to communicate through Mr. Brougham to her majesty.
Her majesty has not been advised to return any answer to those propositions; but lord Liverpool assures her majesty that the king's servants will still think it their duty, notwithstanding all that has passed, to receive for consideration any suggestions which her majesty or her advisers may have to offer upon those propositions.
Fife-house, 9th June, 1820.
No. 3.—Communication from the Queen to the Earl of Liverpool.
The Queen commands Mr. Brougham to inform lord Liverpool, that she has received his letter; and that the memorandum of April 15th, 1820, which the proposition made through lord Hutchinson had appeared to supersede, has also been now submitted to her majesty for the first time.
Her majesty does not consider the terms there specified as at all according with the condition upon which she informed lord Liverpool yesterday that she would entertain a proposal, namely, that it should be consistent with her dignity and honour. At the same time she is willing to acquit those who made this proposal, of intending any thing offensive to her majesty; and lord Liverpool's letter indicates a disposition to receive any suggestions which she may offer.
Her majesty retains the same desire which she commanded Mr. Brougham yesterday to express of submitting her own wishes to the authority of parliament, now so decisively interposed. Still acting upon the same principle, she now commands Mr. Brougham to add, that she feels it necessary, before making any further proposal, to have it understood, that the recognition of her rank and privileges as queen, must be the basis of any Arrangement which can be made. The moment that basis is established, her majesty will be ready to suggest a method by which she conceives all existing differences may be satisfactorily adjusted.
10th June, 1820.
No. 4.—The Earl of Liverpool, in answer to the Communication from the Queen of the l0th June, 1820.
Lord Liverpool has had the honour of receiving the queen's communication, and cannot refrain from expressing the extreme surprise of the king's servants, that the memorandum of April 15th, the only proposition to her majesty, which ever was authorized by his majesty, should not have been submitted to her majesty until yesterday.
That memorandum contains so full a communication of the intentions and views of the king's government with respect to the queen, as to have entitled his majesty's servants to an equally frank, full, and candid explanation on the part of her majesty's advisers.
The memorandum of the 15th of April, while it proposed that her majesty should abstain from the exercise of the rights and privileges of queen with certain exceptions, did not call upon her majesty to renounce any of them.
Whatever appertains to her majesty by law, as queen, must continue to appertain to her so long as it is not abrogated by law.
The king's servants, in expressing their readiness to receive the suggestion for a satisfactory adjustment which her majesty's advisers promise, think it right, in order to save time, distinctly to state, that any proposition which they could feel it to be consistent with their duty to recommend to his majesty, must Have for its basis, her majesty's residence abroad.
11th June, 1820.
No. 5.—Communications from the Queen to the Earl of Liverpool.
The Queen commands Mr. Brougham to acknowledge having received lord Liverpool's note of last night, and to inform his lordship,: that her majesty takes it for granted that the memorandum of April 15, was not submitted to her before Saturday, only because her legal advisers had no opportunity of seeing her majesty until lord Hutchinson was on the spot prepared to treat with her.
Her majesty commands Mr. Brougham to state, that as the basis of her recognition as queen is admitted by the king's government, and as his majesty's servants express then readiness to receive any suggestion for a satisfactory adjustment, her majesty, still acting upon the same principles which have always guided her conduct, will now point out a method, by which it appears to her that the object in contemplation may be attained.
Her majesty's dignity and honour being secured, she regards all other matters as of comparatively little importance, and is willing to leave every thing to the decision of any person or persons of high station and character, whom both parties may concur in naming, and who shall have authority to prescribe the particulars as to residence, patronage and in-
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come, subject of course to the approbation of parliament.
12th June, 1820.
No. 6.—The Earl of Liverpool, in answer to the Communication from the Queen of the 12th of June, 1820.
Lord Liverpool has received the communication made by the queen's commands.
The king's servants feel it to be unnecessary to enter in to any discussion on the early parts of this communication, except to repeat that the memorandum delivered to Mr. Brougham of the 15th of April, contained the only proposition to the queen, which the king authorized to be made to her majesty.
The views and sentiments of the king's government as to her majesty's actual situation are sufficiently explained in lord Liverpool's note of the 11th instant.
Lord Liverpool will proceed therefore to the proposal made on the part of her majesty at the close of this communication—viz. "That she is willing to leave every thing to the decision of any person or persons of high station and character, whom both parties may concur in naming; and who shall have authority to prescribe the particulars as to residence, patronage and income, subject of course to the approbation of parliament.
The king's confidential servants cannot think it consistent with their constitutional responsibility to advise the king to submit to any arbitration, a matter so deeply connected with the honour and dignity of his crown, and with the most important public interests; but they are fully sensible of the advantages which may be derived from an unreserved personal discussion; and they are therefore prepared to advise his majesty to appoint two of his majesty's confidential servants, who, in concert with the like number of persons to be named by the queen, may frame an arrangement to be submitted to his majesty, for settling, upon the basis of lord Liverpool's note of the 11th instant, the necessary particulars of her majesty's future situation.
13th June, 1820.
No. 7.—Note from the Earl of Liverpool to Mr. Brougham, accompanying his Answer to the Communication from the Queen of the 12th June, 1820.
Lord Liverpool presents his compliments to Mr. Brougham, and requests that he will inform the queen, that if the accompanying answer should not appear to require any reply, lord Liverpool is prepared to name the two persons, whom his majesty will appoint for the purpose referred to in this note.
13th June 1820.
No 8.—Mr. Brougham to the Earl of Liverpool, stating that he has received the queen's commands to name two persons to meet the two who may be named on the part of his Majesty's government for settling an arrangement.
Mr. Brougham presents his compliments to lord Liverpool, and begs leave to inform him, that lie has received the queen's commands to name two persons, to meet the two whom his lordship may name on the part of his majesty's government, for the purpose of settling an arrangement.
Mr. Brougham hopes to he favoured with lord Liverpool's nomination this evening, in order that an early appointment for a meeting to-morrow may take place.
14lh June, 1820.

APPENDIX.
Memorandum for a proposed Arrangement with the Queen.
The act of the 54th Geo. 3rd, c. 160, recognized the separation of the prince Regent from the princess of Wales, and allotted a separate provision for the princess.
This provision was to continue during the life of his late majesty, and to determine at his demise.
In consequence of that event, it has altogether teased; and no provision can be made for her, until it shall please his majesty to recommend to parliament an arrangement for that purpose.
The king is willing to recommend to parliament to enable his majesty to settle an annuity of 50,000 l. a year upon the queen, to be enjoyed by her during her natural life, and in lieu of any claim in the nature of jointure or otherwise; provided she will engage not to come into any part of the British dominions, and provided she engages to take some other name or title than that of queen, and not to exercise any of the rights or privileges of queen, other than with respect to the appointment of law officers, or to any proceedings in courts of justice.
The annuity to cease upon the violation of those engagements, viz; upon her coming into any part of the British dominions, or her assuming the title of queen, or her exercising any of the rights or privileges of queen, other than above excepted, after the annuity shall have been settled upon her.
Upon her consent to an engagement on the above conditions, Mr. Brougham is desired to obtain a declaration to this effect, signed by herself; and at the same time a full authority to conclude with such person as his majesty may appoint, a formal engagement upon those principles.
15th April, 1820.

PROTOCOLS.
No. 1.—Protocol of the First Conference held in St. James's-square, June l5th, 1830.
In pursuance of the notes of the, 13th and 14th of June, the duke of Wellington and lord Castlereagh, on the part of the king, having met Mr. Brougham and Mr. Denman, her majesty's law officers in order to facilitate
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the proposed personal discussions, it was suggested by the former:
1st. That the persons named to frame an arrangement, although representing different interests, should consider themselves, in discharge of this duty, not as opposed to each other, but as acting in concert with a view to frame an arrangement in compliance with the understood wish of parliament, which may avert the necessity of a public inquiry into the information laid before the two Houses.
2nd. The arrangement to be made must be of such a nature, as to require from neither party any concession as to the result to which such inquiry, if proceeded en, might lead. The queen must not be understood to admit, or the king to retract any thing.
3rd. That in order the better to accomplish the above important object, it was proposed, that whatever might pass in the first conference should pledge neither party to any opinion; that nothing should be recorded without previous communication, and, as far as possible, common consent; and that, in order to facilitate explanation and to encourage unreserved discussion, the substance only of what passed should be reported.
These preliminary points being agreed to, the questions to be examined (as contained in lord Liverpool's memorandum of the 15th April, 1820, delivered to Mr. Brougham previous to his proceeding to St. Omer's, and in lord Liverpool's note of the 11th of June, and Mr. Brougham's note of the 12th of June, written by the queen's commands) were:

1st. The future residence of the queen abroad.

2nd. The title which her majesty might think fit to assume when travelling on the Continent;

3rd. The non-exercise of certain rights of patronage in England, which it might be desirable that her majesty might desist from exercising, should she reside abroad; and,

4th. The suitable income to be assigned for life to the queen residing abroad.

Her majesty's law officers, on the part of the queen, desired, in the first instance, that the fourth point should be altogether laid aside in these conferences: her majesty desired it might make no part of the conditions, nor be mixed with the present discussions. They then proceeded to state, that under all the circumstances of her majesty's position, they would not say that her majesty had any insuperable objection to living abroad; on the contrary, if such foreign residence were deemed indispensable to the completion of an arrangement so much desired by parliament, her majesty might be prevailed upon to acquiesce; but then, that certain steps must be taken to remove the possibility of any inference, being drawn from such compliance, and from the inquiry not being proceeded in, unfavourable to her majesty's honour, and inconsistent with that recognition which is the basis of these negotiations; and

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her majesty's advisers suggested, with this view, the restoration of her name to the Liturgy. To this it was replied, that the king's government would no doubt learn with great surprise that a question of this important nature had now been brought forward for the first time, without having been adverted to in any of the previous discussions, and without being included amongst the heads to be now treated of; that the Liturgy had been already regulated by his majesty's formal declaration in council, and in the exercise of his majesty's legal authority; that the king, in yielding his own feelings and views to the wishes of parliament, could not be understood (in the absence of inquiry) to alter any of those impressions under which his majesty had hitherto deliberately and advisedly acted, and that, as it was at the outset stated, that the king could not be expected to retract any thing, no hope could be held out that the king's government would feel themselves justified in submitting such a proposition to his majesty.
To this it was answered, that although the point of the liturgy was certainly not included by name amongst the heads to be discussed, her majesty's law officers felt themselves entitled to bring it forward in its connexion with the question of her majesty's residence abroad It was further contended, that the alteration in the liturgy was contrary to the plain sense and even letter of the statute, and that it was highly objectionable on constitutional grounds, being contrary to the whole policy of the law respecting the security of the succession, and liable to be repeated in cases where the succession itself might be endangered by it, and therefore it was said that a step so taken Might well be retraced, without implying any unworthy concession. It was also urged, that the omission having been plainly made in contemplation of legal or parliamentary proceedings against her majesty, it followed when these proceedings were to be abandoned, that the omission should be supplied; and it followed for the same reason, that supplying it would imply no retractation.
It was replied, that his majesty had decided that her majesty's name should not be inserted in the liturgy, for several reasons not now necessary to discuss;—that his majesty had acted under legal advice, and in conformity to the practice of his royal predecessors; and that the decision of his majesty had not I been taken solely with a view to intended proceedings in parliament, or at law. Independent of the inquiry instituted before parliament his majesty had felt himself long since called upon to adopt certain measures, to which his majesty, a9 head of his family, and in the exercise of his prerogative, was clearly competent. These acts, together with that now under consideration, however reluctantly adopted, and however painful to his majesty's feelings, were taken upon grounds which the dis-
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continuance of the inquiry before parliament could not affect, and which his majesty could not therefore be expected to rescind; the principle, fairly applied would go in truth no further, than to replace the parties in the relative position in which they stood immediately before her majesty's arrival, and before the king's message was sent down to both Houses of Parliament.
After further discussion upon this point, it was agreed that the duke of Wellington and lord Castlereagh should report to the cabinet what had passed, and come prepared with their determination to the next conference. Her majesty's law officers then asked, whether, in the event of the above proposition not being adopted, any other proceeding could be suggested on the part of his majesty's government, which might render her majesty's residence abroad consistent with the recognition of her rights, and the vindication of her character; and they specially pointed at the official introduction of her majesty to foreign courts by the king's ministers abroad? Upon this it was observed, that this proposition appeared open to the same difficulty in point of principle: it was calling upon the king to retract the decision formally taken and avowed on the part of his majesty, a decision already notified to foreign courts, and to render the position of his majesty's representatives abroad, in relation to her majesty, inconsistent with that of their sovereign at home:—that the purpose for which this was sought by the queen's advisers, was inconsistent with the principle admitted at the commencement of the conference, and was one that could not be reasonably required to be accomplished by the act of his majesty, namely, to give to her majesty's conduct that countenance, which the state of the case, as at present before his majesty, altogether precluded.
At the same time it was stated, that while his majesty, consistently with the steps already adopted, could not authorise the public reception of the queen, or the introduction of her majesty at foreign courts by his ministers abroad, there was nevertheless every disposition to see that branch of the orders already given, faithfully and liberally executed, which enjoined the British ministers on the continent, to facilitate within their respective missions, her majesty's accommodation, and to contribute to her personal comfort and convenience.
Her majesty's law officers gave the king's servants no reason whatever to think that the queen could be induced to depart from the propositions above stated, unless some others, founded on the same principles, were acceded to on the part of his majesty's government.
(Signed) WELLINGTON.
CASTLEREAGH.
H. BROUGHAM.
T. DENMAN.
No. 2.—Protocol of the second Conference, held at the Foreign Office, June 16th, 1820.
The king's servants began the conference by stating, that they had not failed to report with fidelity to the king's government, the proposition brought forward by her majesty's law officers, that the queen's name should be expressly included in the Liturgy, in order to protect her majesty against any misconstruction of the grounds on which her majesty might consent to reside abroad; that they were not deceived, for reasons already sufficiently explained, in anticipating the surprise of their colleagues, at the production of this question, for the first time, on the part of her majesty, more especially in the present advanced state of the proceedings.
That they were authorised distinctly to state, that the king's servants could on no account advise his majesty to rescind the decision already taken and acted upon in this instance; and that, to prevent misconception, the king's government had charged the duke of Wellington and lord Castlereagh to explain, that they must equally decline to advise the king to depart from the principle already laid down by his majesty for the direction of his representatives abroad, with regard to the public reception by the king's ministers abroad, and introduction, of her majesty at foreign courts, but that they were not only ready, but desirous, to guard in future, by renewed orders, against any possible want of attention to her majesty's comfort or convenience, by his majesty's ministers abroad; and that wherever her majesty might think fit to establish her residence, every endeavour would be made to secure for her majesty from that state, the fullest protection, and the utmost personal comfort, attention and convenience.
In explanation of the position in which the king actually stood upon this question in his foreign relations, the instructions under which the ministers abroad now acted were communicated to the queen's law officers, and their attention was directed, as well to the principles therein laid down, and from which his majesty could not be called upon to depart, as to that branch of the instructions which was studiously framed to provide for the personal comfort and convenience of the queen, when princess of Wales.
The queen's law officers then stated, that they must not be understood to suggest the giving of a general power to her majesty to establish her court in any foreign country, and to be there received and presented by the English minister, because reasons of state might render it inexpedient, that under certain circumstances such an establishment should be made; but they wished that her majesty should have the power of being so received and treated by the English minister, where no such reasons of state interfered; and they
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inquired, whether the same objection would exist to the public introduction of her majesty at some one court where she might fix her residence, if she waived the claim of introduction at foreign courts generally.
To this it was answered, that the principle was in fact the same whether at one or more courts, and that if the king could be consistently advised to meet the queen's wishes in this instance at all, it would be more dignified for his majesty to do so generally and avowedly, than to adopt any partial or covert proceeding. The queen's law officers, referring to the decision of the judges in George the first's reign, said it would be a much more unexceptionable exercise of the royal prerogative, were the king even to prescribe where her majesty should reside, but to order her there to be treated as queen by his minister.
The king's servants, in consequence of what had passed at a former conference, then reverted to the mode in which the queen had arrived in England, and the pain her majesty must experience, were she exposed to leave England in the like manner.
They acquainted her majesty's law officers, that they could venture to assure them, that the difficulty would not occur.
The queen arrived in England contrary to the king's wishes and representations, but were her majesty now to desire to pass to the continent, whether to a port in the channel, or if it should more accord with her majesty's views, to proceed at once to the Mediterranean, a king's yacht in the one instance, or a ship of war in the other, might be ordered to convey her majesty.
After receiving these explanations, the queen's law officers recurred to the points before touched upon, viz. the inserting the queen's name in the liturgy, or the devising something in the nature of an equivalent, and intimated their conviction, that her majesty would feel it necessary to press one or both of those objects, or some other of a similar nature and tendency.
They then asked, whether a residence in one of the royal palaces would be secured to her majesty, while in this country; and observed that her majesty had never been deprived of her apartments in Kensington-palace, until she voluntarily gave them up for the accommodation of the late duke of Kent?
It was replied, that the king's servants bad no instructions on this point. They however observed, that they believed the apartments which her majesty formerly occupied, when princess of Wales, were at present actually in the possession of the duchess of Kent, and that they considered that this point had been already disposed of, by supplying to her majesty the funds which were necessary to furnish her majesty with a suitable residence.
Her majesty's law officers then inquired, whether, supposing an arrangement made, the mode of winding up the transaction, and

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withdrawing the information referred to parliament had been considered, and whether the king's servants saw any objection, in the present instance, to the Houses of Parliament expressing, by suitable addresses both to the king and queen, their grateful thanks for their majesties having acquiesced in an arrangement, by which parliament had been saved the painful duty of so delicate and difficult a proceeding?
The king's servants acknowledged this point had not been considered; but reserved to themselves to report the observations made thereupon to their colleagues.
It was then agreed that, upon every view of duty and propriety, the final decision should not be protracted beyond Monday, to which day it should be proposed that the proceedings on the king's message in the House of Commons should be adjourned, on a distinct explanation to this effect; and that a conference should take place to-morrow, in order to bring the business to a conclusion, and to arrange, by mutual consent, the Protocols of conference.
(Signed) WELLINGTON.
CASTLEREAGH.
H. BROUGHAM.
T. DESMAN.
No. 3.—PROTOCOL of the third conference, held at the foreign office, June 17, 1820.
The conference was opened by her majesty's law officers intimating, that, adverting to what had passed in the preceding conference, they had nothing to propose, but to proceed to the adjustment of the protocol.
The king's servants stating, that, before they entered into this business of arranging the protocol, they thought it their duty to advert 10 the points discussed in the preceding conference, upon which no explicit opinion had been expressed by then) on the part of his majesty's government; they then declared, that they were authorized to inform the queen's law officers, that, in the event of tier majesty's going to the continent, a yacht or ship of war would be provided for the conveyance of her majesty, cither to a port in the channel, or to a port in the Mediterranean, as her majesty might prefer.
That every personal attention and respect would be paid by the king's servants abroad to her majesty, and every endeavour made by them to protect her majesty against any possible inconvenience, whether in her travels or residing on the continent,—with the understood reserve, however, of public reception by the king's ministers abroad, and introduction at foreign courts.
It was further stated by the king's servants, that having weighed the suggestion communicated by the queen's law officers in the preceding conference, they were now prepared to declare, that they saw no difficulty (if the terms in which the same were to be conveyed were properly guarded) to a proposition being
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made to both Houses, for expressing, by address to the queen as well as to the king, their grateful acknowledgments for the facilities which their majesties might have respectively afforded, towards the accomplishment of an arrangement, by which parliament had been saved the necessity of so painful a discussion.
These observations not appearing to make any material difference in the views taken by her majesty's law officers of the result of the conferences, it was agreed to proceed in the arrangement of the protocols.
Before however the protocol was discussed, the king's servants desired distinctly to know from her majesty's law officers, whether the introduction of the queen's name in the liturgy, and her majesty's introduction at foreign courts, were either of them, a condition sine, quâ non of an arrangement on the part of the queen? to which it was replied, that either the introduction of her majesty's name in the liturgy, an equivalent, which would have the effect of protecting her majesty against the un-favourable inference to which her majesty might be liable in leaving the country under the circumstances in which her majesty was placed, was a sine quâ non. The queen could not be advised voluntarily to consent to any arrangement which was not satisfactory to her majesty's own feelings, however her majesty, with a view to meet the understood wishes of parliament, had felt it her duty to propose to leave the whole question to an arbitration.
No proposition on the part of her majesty, other than those already adverted to, was brought forward.
(Signed) WELLINGTON.
CASTLEREAGH.
H. BROUGHAM.
T. DENMAN.
No. 4.—PROTOCOL of the fourth conference, held at St. James's-square, 18th June, 1820.
Before proceeding to finish the discussion of the protocols, it was suggested on the part of the king's servants, if possible to meet the queen's wishes, and in order the better to assure to her majesty every suitable respect and attention within the particular state in which she might think fit to establish her residence (the Milanese or the Roman States having been previously suggested by her majesty's law officers, as the alternative within her majesty's contemplation) that the king would cause official notification to be made of her majesty's legal character as queen, to the government of such state.—That consistently however with the reasons already stated, it must rest with the sovereign of such state, what reception should be given to her majesty in that character.
The king's servants were particularly anxious to impress upon the queen's law officers the public grounds upon which this principle rested.
The general rule of foreign courts is, to receive only those who are received at home.
The king could not with propriety require any point, of foreign governments, the refusal of which would not afford his majesty just grounds of resentment or remonstrance.
It would he neither for the king's dignity nor for the queen's comfort, that she should be made the subject of such a question.
To this it was replied, for the queen, that with respect to this new proposition on the part of the king's servants, it should be taken into immediate consideration; but her majesty's law officers observed, that her majesty was not in the situation referred to in the above reasoning, having been habitually received at court in this country for many years, and having only ceased to go there in 1814, out of regard to the peculiarly delicate situation in which the unfortunate differences in the royal family placed the late queen.
The latter observation was met, on the part of the king's servants, by a re-assertion of his majesty's undoubted authority on this point, whether as king, or as Prince Regent in the exercise of the royal authority; that the court held by her late majesty was in fact the court of the Prince Regent, then acting in the name and on the behalf of his late majesty, and that the present queen, then princess of Wales, was excluded from such court.
(Signed) WELLINGTON.
CASTLEREAGH.
H. BROUGHAM.
T. DENMAN.
No. 5.—PROTOCOL of the fifth conference, held at the foreign office, June 19th, 1820.
The protocols of the preceding conferences were read, and agreed upon.
Her majesty's law officers stated, that the proposition of yesterday had been submitted to her majesty, and that it had not produced any alteration in her majesty's sentiments.
In order to avoid any misinterpretation of the expression used on mentioning their belief that her majesty might overcome her reluctance to go abroad, viz. "under all the circumstances of her position," they stated, that they meant thereby, the unhappy domestic differences which created the difficulty of her majesty holding a court, and the understood sense of parliament, that her majesty's residence in this country might be attended with public inconvenience.
They also protested generally, in her majesty's name, against being understood to propose or to desire any terms inconsistent with the honour and dignity of the king, or any which her own vindication did not seem to render absolutely necessary.

MEMORANDUM.
The 2nd and 3rd points, as enumerated for discussion in the protocol of the first conference, were not brought into deliberation, in consequence of no satisfactory understanding
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having taken place upon the points brought forward by her majesty's law officers.
The five protocols were then respectively signed.
(Signed) WELLINGTON.
CASTLEREAGH.
H. BROUGHAM.
T. DENMAN.
The titles of the above Papers having been read by the clerk at the table,
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that be felt it to be his duty to apprize the House, that his majesty, feeling that every effort should be made to prevent the necessity of proceeding farther with the delicate question which had recently been brought under their notice, had consented that it should be considered elsewhere. In consequence of the course adopted having failed to produce the desired effect, he was authorized by his majesty to present certain papers, by which the whole of the proceeding would be communicated to parliament. He felt great pain in stating that the course proposed and adopted had not led to any satisfactory arrangement on the subject. From the great importance and the extreme delicacy of the question, the discussion of which had been repeatedly deferred, he felt that it would be very improper on his part, and exceedingly unfair towards the House, to press the consideration of the subject until gentlemen possessed the most authentic information connected with it. By that means the House would be relieved from the painful situation in which it at present stood, and would be enabled to judge of the efforts that had been made to arrange this unfortunate business. The papers were now in the progress of being printed, and would be given out to gentlemen early to-morrow. He therefore felt it to be his duty to move that the House should adjourn over, till Wednesday, the consideration of this question. It was necessary, before they proceeded to the farther consideration of the king's message, that all the circumstances of the case should be laid before them; that they should be enabled, at once, to view it in all its bearings, before they determined how they were to dispose of a question surrounded by so many difficulties. His lordship then moved, "that the papers do lie on the table."
Mr. Brougham,in seconding the motion, begged to express to the House his concurrence in the view the noble lord had taken of this subject. He assured

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the noble lord that he could not feel greater pain than he experienced, in consequence of the want of success which had attended the effort that had been made to adjust the unfortunate differences that had occurred between those illustrious personages. He was anxious that the papers should be printed; and he hoped, when they were in the hands of gentlemen, they would find no reason to award any blame to her majesty; there was nothing contained in them that could cast any censure on her. It was possible—barely possible—amongst the many other peculiarities of this distressing case, that the House might be induced to adopt the opinion that no blame attached to either party.
The motion was then agreed to; and the consideration of his majesty's message was further adjourned till Wednesday.

THE BUDGET.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose. He stated, that feeling how difficult it was under the circumstances in which the House was then situated, for him to obtain that attention without which a financial discussion could not be intelligible or satisfactory, he should in the shortest, as well as the clearest, manner in his power state those particulars which it was his more immediate duty to bring under the consideration of parliament on that day, without attempting to enter into the discussion of general topics, which might he introduced with equal propriety on other occasions.
The first point to which he wished to call the attention of the committee, was the amount of the supply which had been granted for the service of the year under its several departments, and he should then proceed to show the funds from which the expenditure was intended to be defrayed, adding such explanations at the close of his statement as appeared to be necessary to elucidate the several points to which he had referred.
The first great head of expenditure to which he should call their attention, was that of the army. For military services there had been granted in the present year, including some items which still remained to be voted, the sum of 9,422,000 l. In the preceding year the grant had amounted to 8,782,000 l., but the actual expense had exceeded that sum, in con-
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sequence of the augmentation of force which had taken place towards the close of that year, and which had been partly included in the votes of the present session. Much as he might regret the causes which led to this augmentation of force, he should not then think it necessary to trouble the committee by entering upon them, being satisfied that the conviction was general in the country, as well as being sensible in his own mind, that the augmentation had not arisen from any voluntary disposition in the government to increase the military force, but from the urgent necessity of rinding additional protection for the loyal and industrious part of the population of the country.
He next adverted to the naval services, which amounted to 6,586,000 l.; and under which head of expenditure there had also been an increase of 150,000 l. arising principally from the same necessity which had produced the augmentation of the expences of the army, an additional number of 2,000 marines having been voted to perform garrison duty on shore.
The ordnance estimates amounted to 1,204,000 l. being nearly the same as in the last year; and in both the actual expense considerably exceeded the sums granted by parliament, the surplus being made good by the sale of stores remaining at the close of the war, and which it was no longer necessary to preserve.
The miscellaneous services he should estimate at 2,100,000 l. being about22,000 l. more than in the year 1819; but in the estimate of the present year he included the sum which it had been supposed would be necessary for the expences of the coronation. The total amount of the heads of expenditure which he had enumerated was 19,313,000 l. being about 825,000 l. more than those of the last year; but this excess in the expense of the general service of the state would be in part compensated by a diminution of the charges of the unfunded debt, which, in 1819, had amounted to two millions, viz. 1,570,000 l. for interest, and 430,000 l. for sinking fund on exchequer bills. In the present year it was only necessary to provide one million for the interest, and 410,000 l. for sinking fund. The total sum to be provided for the service of the year would therefore be 20,723,000 l., while, in 1819, it had been 20,488,000 l. But, in addition to the pension necessary to be made for the services properly belonging to the year, there was to be added a sum for

1163
the further reduction of unfunded debt. It had been recommended by the committees of both Houses of Parliament, that the sums due by government to the Bank should be diminished by a repayment of 10,000,000 l. of which 5,000,000 l. having been provided for in the last year, there remained a sum of 5,000,000 l. now to provide. It also appeared to be necessary, in order to remove the pressure of unfunded debt upon the market to provide for a further reduction of the exchequer bills in the lands of individuals to the extent of 4,000,000 l. making in the whole a diminution of unfunded debt to the amount of 9,000,000 l., which, added to the provision for the services of the year, would make a total of supply to the extent of 29,723,000 l.
To meet these charges, the first article of Ways and Means was the continuation of the usual annual taxes, amounting to 3,000,000 l. The next would be a grant upon the produce of the temporary excise duties which had been continued since the war. In the year 1819, 3,500,000 l. had been granted upon those duties, being about equal to their actual produce in the then preceding years; but owing principally to the variations of payment which had been caused by the consolidation of the excise duties, in July last, there remained on the 5th July, 1820, a sum of 900,000 l., still to be made good upon that grant. He should, therefore, for the present year, propose to vote only 2,500,000 l. upon that fund, in order that the grant might be nearly completed before the month of April next. The remaining articles of ordinary income were the lottery and the old naval stores. The former he should estimate at 240,000 l. and the latter at 260,000 l., being the produce of the sales of the last year. The total amount of these several items of ordinary income was six millions, which being deducted from the supply he had before stated, would leave the sum of 20,700,000 l. to be provided for by extraordinary means.
He had already had occasion to explain to parliament the mode in which seven millions of exchequer bills had been funded, and a loan of five millions contracted, and he had had the satisfaction to observe that the terms which he had obtained for the public in each of those transactions had met with the general approbation of the House. He should now further propose a vote sanctioning a loan of
1164
12,000,000 l. from the sinking fund, making in the whole an amount of Ways and Means of 30,000,000 l. and exceeding the supply granted by between two and three hundred thousand pounds. There remained a small article of income which it would be necessary to vote, but of which he could not offer a specific estimate. It would arise from the repayments which might take place of advances made to corporations or individuals under the authority of the act of the 57th of his late majesty, for affording encouragement to public works. Under that act, about 1,000,000 l. had been advanced in exchequer bills, which would become due in October next, and for the payment of which parliament had made provision in the present session; but the individuals who had received these loans were in many instances allowed to repay them by distant instalments, so that only a small proportion of the sums advanced could be expected to be repaid in the present year; the whole transaction would, however, be ultimately wound up without any loss to the public, and at a rate of interest, which would afford provision for all the charges attending the operation of the act.
Having thus stated the various items of Supply and Ways and Means, it might be necessary to explain the situation of the unfunded debt, as settled by the votes of the last year, and as now proposed to be reduced by the arrangements for the present. The amount of exchequer bills, authorized to be issued by the acts of 1819, was 36,500,000 l., to which was to be added the sum of 1,000,000 l. issued, as he had before observed, under the 57th of the late king, and also 2,000,000 l., of Irish Treasury bills, the value of which the Bank of Ireland had advanced to government. He should propose for the present year to grant 29,000,000 l. of exchequer bills, and 1,500,000 of Irish Treasury bills, making together 30,500,000 l. and making a diminution of the unfunded debt compared with the last year, as he had before stated, of 9,000,000 l. The exchequer bills he should propose to vote this evening, but to reserve the Irish treasury bills for a future occasion, as he was not certain whether the Bank of Ireland, which had already exchanged 500,000 l. of the Irish treasury bills, held by them for English exchequer bills, might not be desirous of exchanging a further sum in the same manner.

1165
The terms of the sinking fund loan he should propose to regulate by those of the contract which had been entered into for the loan of 5,000,000 l. it appearing to be the most equitable principle, that the sum of public money borrowed from the commissioners of the sinking fund should be taken at the same rate of interest as that at which the money of individuals had been advanced. The payments of this loan would be so arranged as to leave the sum of 5,000,000 l. applicable by the commissioners to the purchase of stock in the year ended the 5th July, 1821. In the year ended 5th July, 1819, the sum applied by the commissioners had amounted to about 4,400,000 l., including about 600,000 l. applied in Ireland. In the present year, the total sum would be some what more than, 5,000,000 l., of which between, 600,000 l. and 700,000 l. would also be applied in Ireland, leaving about 4,400,000 l. for purchasers in England; and here it might be proper for him to answer a question, which had been more than once put to him by the hon. member for Penryn, viz. why, as the sinking fund now amounted to 17,000,000 l. and would therefore have been sufficient, in addition to the proposed loan of twelve millions, the remaining sum of five millions had not also been borrowed from the sinking fund, so as to leave no sum to be borrowed from individuals. To this he should answer, that although the amount of debt remaining unredeemed at the close of the year might have been nearly the same in one mode of proceeding as in the other, yet it appeared to him that the effect upon credit and public convenience would have been extremely different in the two cases, The purchases of the commissioners had not only the effect of cancelling a certain portion of stock at the end of every year, but by their equable and regular operation they in a degree regulated the market during the whole of the year, and prevented those sudden fluctuations which the accidental circumstances of forced sales and of the combinations of speculators might otherwise occasion. Whatever might be the necessity of an individual to bring his stock to sale, he knew that there was a constant and considerable purchaser in the market, and that he could not fail at last with the delay of a few days to obtain the fair current price of what he had to sell. It was also to be recollected for how many years the public had been accustomed to the constant
1166
practice of these purchases, and how much their feelings might have been acted upon, and their apprehensions excited by the total cessation of an establishment, which has always been deemed so beneficial. He had not indeed been without some alarm at the effect which might be produced upon public opinion in the last year, when a loan from the sinking fund was for the first time carried into effect. He was ready to allow that the experiment had ended more favourably than he had apprehended it might do, but the difference was very great between the diminution, though considerable, and the total cessation of a resource of this kind. In future, indeed, he hoped that this ground of difference of opinion between the hon. member and himself would no longer exist, for he saw no reason to depart from the expectation which he had last year held out to parliament that the loan lately concluded would be the last, which so long as peace continued, the government would be under the necessity of contracting, except by application to the commissioners for the sinking fund.
He was here naturally led to explain a part of the subject, which had on various occasions been alluded to, and which nearly connected itself with this question—he meant a comparison between the estimates which had been formed in the session of 1819, and the actual result of the finances of that year. He was ready to admit that it was less favourable than had been anticipated; but he contended that the failure was not so considerable as to exceed ordinary fluctuations, or to justify the alarms which had been frequently expressed. The finance committee in April, 1819, had estimated the total income of the United Kingdom at 54,000,000 l., its actual produce had been very near 53 millions, of which, however, 500,000 l. had arisen from taxes imposed since the committee had made their report. The diminution, therefore, of revenue which arose almost wholly in the October quarter, and in the branch of customs might be taken at 1,500,000 l. They had estimated the clear excess of income beyond expenditure at about 2,000,000 l., to which would have been added the amount of any taxes afterwards imposed. The actual excess estimated in various ways might be taken from one million to a million and a half, and though certainly much less than was desirable to secure the prosperity of the country in

1167
the time of peace, yet was sufficient to complete the gloomy observations which were frequently thrown out of a great existing deficiency. In the present year it appeared from the accounts on the table as nearly certain as any estimate which could be formed, that the new taxes imposed in 1819 would produce at least the estimated sum of three millions. There would therefore, be a sum of about 2,500,000 l. to add to the surplus of income beyond expenditure in 1819, making a clear improvement in one situation in the present year of about three millions and a half. It is true that this sum falls considerably short of the 5,000,000 l. of clear income which was last year intended to be provided by parliament; but although that estimate might not be realised in the present year, which laboured under some circumstances of depression too obvious to require particular notice, he by no means saw reason to doubt that it would be speedily completed. One indispensable requisite indeed, as well to all financial prosperity, as to every effective economy, and to all encouragement of industry, was the complete and permanent establishment of tranquillity and good order among the people. When that great point was effectually secured, he felt the greatest confidence of the rest.
Having completed this part of his statement, he adverted in a subsequent explanation to the mode by which the charges of the loans were to be provided for. The principle which he adopted was that of the act of 1813. It had been at that time explained, though not positively enacted, that a sum of one hundred millions ought, in time of peace, to be reserved in the hands of the commissioners as a resource for the first exigencies of of any future wars. That sum had been now completed, and there was a considerable excess in the hands of the commissioners. The sum now actually standing in their names amounted to about 144 millions. He should therefore propose to provide for the charge of the present loans, by cancelling the excess of stock beyond 100 millions in the names of the commissioners, to such an extent as was necessary for providing for the expense as it arose, and so as to leave the sum of at least five millions as a clear sinking fund for the present year. The right hon. gentleman concluded with moving his first Resolution, "That towards raising the Supply granted to his majesty the sum of
1168
twelve millions be raised by annuities."*
Mr. Baringdid not intend to examine any part of the right hon. gentleman's statement, but rose chiefly to express some degree of surprise that no information had been communicated with regard to the consolidated fund.
* The following is a correct statement of the Supplies and Ways and Means for the present year as compared with those of last year, together with the account of the Unfunded Debt for the years 1819 and 1820.

SUPPLIES.

Granted for 1819

Estimate for 1820.

8,782,470

Army

£.9,422,000

6,436,781

Navy

6,586,700

1,191,000

Ordnance

1,204,600

2,078,197

Miscellaneous

2,100,000

18,488,448

Total Supplies

19,313,300

1,570,000

Interest on Exchequer Bills

1,000,000

430,000

Sinking Fund on Exchequer Bills

410,000

20,488,448

20,723,300

10,500,000

By Reduction of Unfunded Debt

9,000,000

30,988,448

29,723,300

WAYS AND MEANS.

Granted for 1819.

Estimate for 1820.

3,000,000

Annual Malt

£.3,00,000

3,500,000

Excise Duties continued

2,500,000

240,000

Lottery

240,000

334,000

Old Stores

260,000

7,074,000

6,000,000

12,000,000

Loan

5,000,000

12,000,000

Sinking Fund Loan

12,000,000

Funding Exchequer Bill

7,000,000

31,074,000

30,000,000

UNFUNDED DEBT.—1819.

Exchequer Bills, 59 Geo. 3rd, c. 4

20,000,000

Exchequer Bills, 59 Geo. 3rd, c. 131

16,500,000

Irish Treasury Bills

2,000,000

Bills issued for aid to Manufacturers, Fisheries, &c. 57 Geo.

1,000,000

39,500,000

1820.

Exchequer Bills

29,000,000

Irish Treasury Bills

1,500,000

30,500,000

By Reduction of Unfunded Debt

9,000,000

39,500,000

Mr. Humeinquired whether the French contribution of two millions was forthcoming.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that the hon. member had taken the two millions of francs, which was the French contribution, as pounds. In allusion to what had fallen from Mr. Baring, he admitted the great importance of that subject, and could only plead as an excuse for having omitted it, the necessary complication of so many points as it had been his duty to refer to. In the course of last year the deficiency on the consolidated fund had amounted to 3,000,0002. The deficiency, however, had arisen before the new taxes became productive, and also included the charge of two loans—those of the years 1818 and 1819. The new taxes covered that charge, and left a surplus of 1,800,000 l. upon the whole year, or an improvement of 700,000 l. in the last quarter.
Mr. Grenfellwished for some farther explanation as to the expected amount of the sinking fund.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerprofessed his readiness to lay before the committee every particular of the arrangements which he had in view, and upon which he framed his calculations. It was true, as the hon. member seemed to think, that it was his intention to cancel stock to the amount of this proportion of unfunded debt. This proceeding referred to an act of 1813, which provided for making stock in the hands of the commissioners applicable to the service of the year, and under which a plan was devised for accumulating stock to the amount of 100,000,000 l. against the breaking out of a new war. It was only from a surplus above that sum of a hundred millions that he took the proposed sum of 12,000,000 l. In the year 1821, he trusted that the whole accumulation would amount to 115,000,000 l.
Mr. Grenfellcontended, that the plan of the right hon. gentleman was still calculated to diminish rather than cause any real excess of the revenue over the expenditure. With reference to the consolidated fund, he repeated what he had said on a recent occasion, that it was a most unseemly and odious blot on the character of the government, to allow of a constant deficiency in that fund of between seven and eight millions; and he strongly urged the expediency either by a loan, by the issue of exchequer bills, or by some other
1170
mode to put the matter straight. Government were placed by the present state of the consolidated fund in this situation—that they could not pay any quarter's dividend to the public creditor but at the will and pleasure of the Bank of England. The right hon. gentleman must altogether depend not only on the ability of the Bank to assist him, but on their will and pleasure to do so. Was it fitting that government should thus be in the power of a corporation, with reference to the means of paying the dividend to the public creditor? Was it possible that in that state of things the chancellor of the exchequer could feel himself in that independent condition which could alone enable him to make the best bargain for the public? As to the loan of twelve millions from the sinking fund, his right hon. friend had by no means convinced him of the propriety of continuing the present system. The right hon. gentleman knew that the whole system was fictitious—that it had no existence but in books, where it appeared to be so much stock for so much money. In reality, it was neither the one nor the other, but a thing that ceased in the very moment that it came into existence. With regard to its connexion with the affairs of the Bank, he had so often discussed that subject that he should not go into it at present.
Mr. John Smithdisagreed altogether from the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, as to the operation of the sinking fund; and maintained that it created a market for stock, and thereby prevented its depreciation. Adverting to the general question of our financial condition, he observed, that although he by no means charged it as matter of blame, yet that in fact almost all the expectations which had been last year held out by the chancellor of the exchequer had been disappointed. Our revenue had decreased, and our expenses augmented; and that, five years after the termination of war! He confessed that he had long entertained a melancholy foreboding of our actual condition. For the first time he had observed a suspicion and a distrust of the credit of this country. This was a new feature in our situation. In the midst of the late long and dangerous war, this country had been considered the asylum of property. Foreigners brought property of every description to England; but things were sot much changed, that many Englishmen were at the present moment investing a

1171
portion of their property in foreign funds, in order to have a nest egg. The fact was, that the real state of our finances was very little known in that House. This was mainly attributable to the bad mode of keeping the public accounts. In a variety of points, and especially in those parts of them which related to exchequer bills, the accounts might be rendered much more clear and explicit. He concurred in what the right hon. gentleman had said, of the impracticability under existing circumstances of touching the capital of Ireland. Adverting to the Austrian loan, he observed that the circumstances of Austria might have improved within a few years, and he should be glad to find that some application had been made by our government for the repayment of that loan. He contended that ever since the close of the war we had been going on most improvidently. He charged the government with useless extravagance. He did this without the least bitterness; for he thought it was a charge which attached on every member of the House. With some few exceptions, he thought that they were all greatly to blame for not having paid more attention to our very extraordinary expenditure. In the civil department of the ordnance, of the navy, of the army, &c money had been expended—he would not say uselessly, but without absolute necessity. If a private individual became distressed, what course did he take? He looked into his affairs, he retrenched his superfluities, and perhaps some of his necessaries, arid be took care not to be guilty of any expense for which there was not an absolute necessity. Such however, was not the course which government and the legislature had pursued, Now, in looking over the account of public expenditure, he found many charges, under the head of pensions. Those items were looked upon as of little importance, but he saw the other day a pension of 550 l. a year granted, certainly to a very respectable individual, now governor of Trinidad, for five years service, that gentleman also receiving the salary of his present appointment. The blame of this and other charges on the public revenue were not to be wholly attributed to government. The blame ought to be laid upon parliament generally. The House had, in fact, shown the greatest apathy on such occasions; an apathy which he feared was too much felt out of doors. They ought to look with the greatest jealousy to the ex-
1172
penditure of the country. The revolutions which had taken place in all modern states had originated in the embarrassed state of their finances. He apologised for having trespassed on the attention of the House, but he begged or them to consider what they were about. Unless a different system was adopted, he feared the day was not far distant which would bring the deepest and most calamitous distresses on the country.
Mr. Ricardosaid, he could not clearly understand the alleged benefit which the money-market was to receive from the right hon. gentleman's arrangement. It was certainly a subject of lamentation that, after five years of peace, we should still find our expenses increasing. According to the right hon. gentleman we had had effectually a sinking fund of but 1,000,000 l. during the last year; but if this were correct, and the right hon. gentleman were to follow out the statements contained in the report of the finance committee, he would perceive from the expenditure that there had been an actual deficiency. He would here observe, that he found an item of 1,125,000 l. perfectly unexplained. There was no account by which he could trace the manner in which it was proposed to provide for this item of 1,125,000 l. The surplus of 1,000,000 l., which had been mentioned by the right hon. gentleman, he had already taken into account; but he must contend that this sum of 1,125,000 l. still appeared as against the accounts given in by the chancellor of the exchequer, whether he looked at this or at that paper. This sum of 1,125,000 l. ought to appear, therefore, among other outstanding demands. He had a right to presume that the right hon. gentleman was bound to provide for this particular one, among the others. Next year it was anticipated by that right hon. gentleman that we were to have a sinking fund of between three and Tour millions. During the present year, he said, that he calculated, after deducting 9,000,000 l. of unfunded debt to be paid off from 11,000,000 l., that there would be a sinking fund of about 2,000,000 l. But the right hon. gentleman seemed to forget, that this imaginary improvement of his was made to appear twice in the same statement. He first of all said, that we should have a sinking fund of such and such an amount; but, when he came to speak of the deficiencies upon the consolidated fund, and of the fund out of which
†

1173
they were to be supplied, he must have forgotten, when he was expatiating upon the sinking fund, that he was alluding to that out of which those very deficiencies were to be so supplied. And, throughout all these accounts, he had clearly forgotten that there was, in the quarter ending in January 1819, a deficiency of 8,000,000 l. upon exchequer bills. He quite agreed in every word that had fallen from his hon. friend, the member for Penrhyn, respecting the alarming deficiency upon the consolidated fund. He quite concurred with him in saying, that that which was the growing produce of the consolidated fund used to be sufficient to pay all the demands upon it for the current quarter; whereas, instead of this, it was now found insufficient to pay even the arrears of the preceding quarter. During the last year, he considered the finance committee to have pursued a very good plan in letting them know what was the real state of the finances of the country. The committee had allowed them to see, in that, whether their amount was greater or less than it had been at that time twelve months. Now, he had endeavoured to apply the very same plan to the accounts of this year; and he found it to apply to them in a most remarkable manner. The committee last year estimated the unfunded debt at 531,133,000 l. They took the amount of exchequer-bills &c circulation, of Irish treasury bills, deficiency bills, &c.; and the result of their estimate was 53,133,000 l. By the papers before the House, it appeared, that at the periods to which they were made out, the unfunded debt was actually diminished sin1 the sum of 2,000,000 l. only, although the right hon. gentleman calculated that diminution at upwards; of 10,000,000 l.. If, however, the papers before them were correct, be must contend, that the amount of actual diminution upon the unfunded debt, between the 5th of January 1819, and the 5th of January 1820, was only 2,000,000 l. It was now necessary to see in what ratio the funded debt had increased; and by the returns that had been made to the House, they would find that the sum actually received by loan (which loans last year amounted to 24,000,000 l.) was 18,736,000 l. Deducting the sinking fund from this, the balance must necessarily be the actual amount to which the funded debt had been increased during the present year; and that increase was to the exact extent to which the unfunded
1174
debt had been this year paid off, namely. 2,000,000 l.: so that, after all the complicated accounts that had been submitted to the House, the general result was this—that they had decreased the unfunded debt 2,000,000 l. and had increased the funded debt 2,000,000 l. It had been said that, in point of fact, there was no sinking fund whatever, for that the deficiencies upon the interest of exchequer-bills would amount to a sum about equal to that fund. And indeed it appeared to him, that these deficiencies had increased 1,370,000 l. more than they amounted to last year. He had one observation more to make about the funding of 7,000,000 l. of exchequer bills. The hon. member for Penryhn had paid some compliments to the chancellor of the exchequer, for having upon this occasion funded in the 5 per cents, rather than in any other stock. But, in order to contend that that was a judicious measure, he ought first to have shown that there was a sufficiency of capital to fund in the 5 per cents rather than in the three per cents. If they possessed a very large sinking fund and that sinking fund was likely to be operative, then undoubtedly it was proper to fund, in a new stock and create one of 5 per cent in preference to funding in the 3 per cents; and, in that view of the question, he should have been disposed to, have approved of the former of these measures. But, seeing that they possessed little or no sinking fund, he was very much disposed to doubt, whether the terms of such a loan would be of that advantageous character which his hon. friend seemed, disposed to attribute to them.
Mr. Maberlycould not but remark the great difference that existed between the present propositions of the right hon. gentleman and those which he had made last year. Last year he came down to that House, and said, that during the preceding year, he had been acting upon temporary expedients, but that he was then beginning to act upon a permanent plan, whose operation would be to make a sinking fund of 5,000,000 l. The right hon. gentleman, on that occasion, laid the strongest stress upon the position, that a sinking fund of 2,000,000 l. was not sufficient; he therefore proposed 3,000,000 l. in addition, and declared that less than 5,000,000 l. would not be sufficient to support public credit. The right hon. the member for Chichester concurred in the

1175
same opinion. His words were, that he would not place in the hands of any corporate body whatever the chance of ruining our credit; that it would be a very inexpedient thing to go on with the consolidated fund in its then arrears; and above all, he said that the credit of that fund was bound up with the credit of the empire.—Here the hon. gentleman, entered into a recapitulation of charges and items; the purport of which was, to show that the measures hitherto adopted by government, in regard to the deficiencies upon the consolidated fund, had been inefficient. The total deficiency upon the last quarter in these accounts, if every charge were brought under consideration, would be about 500,000 l.; and he was very much afraid that the right hon. member for Chichester, who understood the finances of the country so well, would find the plan that had been adopted a very bad one for providing against these deficiencies, supposing the exchanges should be against us, and that there should be a rise in the price of gold. Admitting there was an increase of 2,000,000 l. upon the ordinary revenue of this year over that of the last—giving ministers credit for this accession of income—it resulted from the papers before the House and the calculations to be made upon them, that on the 1st of January 1821, the consolidated fund would be in debt 9,500,000 l. Last year the right hon. gentleman, had stated his supplies at 20,427,000 l., and his ways and means at 7,024,000 l., leaving a difference of 13,403,000 l. But to, this difference of 13,403,000 l. was to be added, the deficiency of the consolidated fund, leaving a balance of about 15,000,000 l. He did not mean to contend that the revenue had not risen in amount; certainly not; and it was not his object to darken the picture at all; but what means had they of raising such a sum as 15,000,000 l.? The right hon. gentleman's budget of this year he considered to be perhaps the best that he had ever presented to that House, because it seemed to hold out a fairer chance of realizing a sinking fund than that of any former year. He should be happy if it should turn out that he was wrong, and the right hon. gentleman right; but at present he did not anticipate a sinking fund of three or four millions, but one nearer two millions., He could not help pressing on the right hon. gentleman and the noble lord the present actual state pf the sinking fund, and the consideration
1176
of what would be the consequence of at tacking it, supposing they were ever reduced to that necessity by a state of war. He pressed upon the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman the necessity of adopting some measure for raising and supporting that sinking fund. For what was the condition of our finances now, and of that fund in particular, after six years of peace? For his own part, he knew of no other means of providing for so desirable an object but a property tax. He was aware of the many objections that attached to it; yet certain he was, that no other means could be devised but one, and that one was a property-tax. He could conceive no tax, the operation of which would be more generally advantageous. No gentleman whose property was vested in houses would neglect to insure those houses against fire; and he could see no reason why those measures should be neglected which would tend to insure possessions of a different description from those dangers to which, in the common course of events, they might be exposed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeradmitted, that the public had not yet made all those sacrifices, which, unfortunately, were necessary to the national security; but he felt convinced that they would not shrink from any sacrifices, when convinced of their necessity, and that every possible measure of retrenchment had been resorted to by government. Whether these contributions were made in the shape of a property-tax, or in any other shape, was a matter of no consequence. With respect to the present situation of the country, he felt the importance of an efficacious and productive sinking-fund; and he hoped that the produce of that fund would this year be considerable. There had been in the course of the last year a reduction of the public debt, although that reduction had not been so large as could be wished.
Mr. Alderman Heygate,in considering the state of the consolidated fund, deprecated those measures which went to relieve a present inconvenience by the assistance of a loan. If the chancellor of the exchequer adopted the counsel which had been given him by several gentlemen, the effect would be to pay 5 per cent for the loan of that which the Bank now furnished, partly at a very low rate of interest, and partly without any interest at all. According to an arrangement which

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formed part of the law of the country, the Bank were bound to furnish a certain sum of money if called upon by government, and of that arrangement they had no room to complain; for in the course of the bargain concluded with them last year, they had not even asked that the advances in respect to the consolidated fund should be placed upon any other foundation. He took this question to be infinitely more important, as it affected the quantity of money in circulation in the country, than as it went to any trifling saving of four, five, or six per cent upon the amount in question. There was a wide difference between the effect of loans raised for the service of the country in time of war, and these for the payment of the Bank. A loan for the service of the country in war left the circulating medium exactly where it stood before the loan was made; but a loan of the other description went to place the circulation of the country under the control of the Bank. It was utterly unworthy a country like England to be eternally changing her plans of finance. Nothing was more likely to discredit the country in the opinion of foreigners, than continual variation of system, and attacks as continual upon the sinking fund. He trusted that after the present year a period would be put to these repeated loans.—After five years of peace it was unwise to raise money for any purpose by way of loan. He agreed with the hon. gentleman that if the financial situation of the country were candidly and fully stated, the public would not be wanting in those exertions which would again place the nation in that state of credit which it had formerly enjoyed, and which had rendered it during the war an asylum for the capital of the world. The effect of funding 7,000,000 l. of exchequer bills in the navy 5 per cents would be to throw upon the country an additional charge of 140,000 l. a-year.—Upon the loan of 5,000,000 l. lately contracted for the purpose of repaying the Bank, the additional charge beyond what was now paid to the Bank was also about 60,000 l. per annum, and when he heard gentlemen upon that side the House advocating the cause of economy, and disputing vehemently upon a salary of 1,000 l. a-year to a lord of the admiralty, he was surprised to see sums amounting to 200,000 l. a-year wasted without opposition. There was another question which bad scarcely been noticed during the session, but which he could not help thinking
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a subject of great importance—he meant the diminution of the circulating medium. He had heard the fact denied; but he was at a loss to know upon what grounds that denial could be maintained. Let the House contrast the quantity of the circulating medium which was floating in the country in May, 1818, with the amount in circulation in the same month in the present year. In the issue of Bank of England notes, there had been a diminution of 4,000,000 l. In the issue of country bank notes there had been a diminution of 5,000,000 l. The total decrease therefore during that short period had been 9,000,000 l., a sum amounting to more than one-sixth of the whole circulation of the country. The state of the exchange had been during that period almost uniformly in our favour; but not a single piece of gold had made its appearance to replace the notes which had been withdrawn. He was not so strenuous an advocate of the paper system as to deny that gold would be preferable, if gold could be obtained; but, in the mean time, a currency of some description was indispensable, and he sincerely believed, that three-fourths of the distress which pervaded the country had arisen from the haste with which so large a proportion as 9,000,000 l. had been withdrawn from the circulation. As the market and the mint price of bullion, however, were now the same, the object of the bullion committee was at an end; and there could be no pretence for any farther diminution of the circulating medium. Paper, indeed, was at present rather more valuable than gold. The hon. member then proposed a resolution, regretting, in the fifth year of peace, the adoption of any measures tending to augment the public debt, and recommending such a system of economy as should eventually lessen the burthens of the people; and concluded by expressing his ardent hope, that the system of borrowing would henceforward be relinquished, and that the deficiency, if any, in the revenue of the next year, would be met by more manly and effective measures.
Mr. Huskissonagreed, that it would be highly desirable that the consolidated fund, instead of being in arrear, should afford a surplus over and above the service of the year; and wished that the state of the country would admit of the sinking fund being made more efficient. In answer to what had fallen from the hon.

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member who bad last spoken, he would simply quote the admission of that gentleman himself, that the value of paper at the present moment was somewhat higher than the value of gold. That simple fact formed, he conceived, a sufficient reply to all the danger which that hon. member had apprehended. He trusted that by a reduction of expenses this country would soon find itself in a situation in which the 5,000,000 l. of the sinking fund might be realised.
The several resolutions were agreed to.

MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
The resolutions of the committee of supply to which the Miscellaneous Estimates were referred, having been reported,
Mr. John Smithobjected to the vote of 60,000 l. for the Penitentiary at Millbank. He thought it an enormous sum to be granted for such a purpose in the present state of the country. The situation of the building was a most unhealthy one.
Mr. Holfordjustified it, and referred to the authority of Howard.
Mr. Lockhartobserved, that the whole building would cost 600,000 l., and the annual expense would be 21,000 l. so that every criminal confined in the Penitentiary would cost the country 100 l. a year. Government ought to take care how they permitted members of parliament to become patrons of institutions of this kind. He said that parliament, unless in cases of urgent necessity, ought not to vote an additional shilling to increase the burthens of the people.
Mr. Humesaid, he had voted for the original construction of the edifice; but the estimate then only amounted to the half of what had already been expended. He was in favour of the resolution, that the building might be completed; and, after its completion, government might gain experience.
Sir JosephYorke thought the buildings already finished were quite sufficient for the purpose of experiment. This grant was for a new building. He thought it very wrong on the part of government to embark in such expensive undertakings, for the purpose of indulging any member in a favourite object of speculation. The expense of printing for both Houses scarcely amounted to less than 100,000 l. per annum. He could not tell how the money was expended: it was like "the peace of God/which passeth all understanding." [Order.]
Mr. Humewished to know whether there was any intention of allowing the claims of the American loyalists for the balance due to them. They were assured that the losses they had sustained would be fully made good to them. This, however, had not been yet done, though the subject had been frequently under consideration. He could look upon it as nothing less than a breach of the public faith.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerallowed that they were a meritorious body of men. To comply with their demands would, however, be establishing a very inconvenient precedent. They were in the same situation as many others were placed in by the chances of war.
Mr. Courtenayregretted the view taken of this subject by the chancellor of the exchequer. He could hot allow that the case of these claimants was similar to that of any others. Their claims stood on the faith of parliament and were quite distinct from any others.
Mr. W. Smithfully concurred in the sentiments of the hon. gentleman who spoke last. The only bar he could see in the way of the claimants, was their acceptance of a certain portion of what was fairly due to them. This, however, should form ho objection against allowing what, by every tie of justice, the country was bound to pay. Their claims were as fair, and as strong as any in the annals of war. They had not been allowed to lie dormant. They had been revived, at different intervals, during a period of thirty years. Three fourths of the claimants Were now dead; and many of them from broken hearts, in consequence of their disappointments. Lord Shelburne and Mr. Burke, though opposed to the American war, had allowed that there were no men better entitled to the consideration of the country.
The report was agreed to.

SECRET COMMITTEE ON THE PAPERS RELATING TO THE CONDUCT OF THE QUEEN.
The Earl of Liverpoolrose and said:—My lords; upon several occasions I have of late had to move your lordships to postpone the meeting of the Secret Committee appointed, in pursuance of his majesty's message, respecting charges of which we are all aware, on the ground that discussion and explanations were going on, pending which it would not be expedient to enter into the consideration of the papers communicated from the Crown. It is with regret I have now to state, that contrary to the expectation entertained, at least for a time, by myself and by others, and I may say generally by both Houses of Parliament and the country, that discussion and those explanations have failed in producing the desired result, and paying upon the table a bundle of papers] I am commanded by his majesty to lay these papers upon the table, containing the details of that negotiation. As in all cases where papers are laid upon the table by command of the Crown, they are in a course of printing, and will be ready for delivering to the members of the House to-morrow-morning. Your lordships are aware that the meeting of the secret committee, to whom the papers communicated by his majesty's message are referred, stands fixed for to-morrow, but as in fairness and candour noble lords ought to have an opportunity of considering the papers I have now laid upon the table, previous to the meeting of the secret committee, in order that they may be enabled to judge

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whether there is any thing in these papers that ought to influence them, either in still further postponing the meeting of the committee, or in adhering to their original vote, or in any other manner; I therefore now move, that the order for the meeting of the secret committee to-morrow be discharged, and that the secret committee do, instead thereof, meet on Friday.
This motion was agreed to.
The Marquis of Lansdowne:—I wish to ask the noble earl, whether it is his intention to found any proceeding upon the papers which he has just laid upon the table by command of his majesty?
The Earl of Liverpool:—I have no difficulty, my lords, in saying that it is not my intention to found any proceeding upon these papers. It will be for your lordships to judge of their contents, and it will be competent for any noble lord to make any motion respecting them that he shall deem expedient, or any motion as to the further proceeding or not of the secret committee.
The Marquis of Lansdowne:—If I understand the noble earl, he does not mean to found any proceeding upon these papers; but it surety must follow, from the conduct of the noble earl upon this point, that his opinion is made up, that the consideration of these papers will form no ground for a further postponing the meeting of the secret committee.
The Earl of Liverpool:—My lords, I have delivered no such opinion, nor do I mean to do it. It will be for your lordships to consider, whether there is any thing in these papers that ought to have the effect or not, of further postponing the meeting of the committee.
Earl Greydid not rise to oppose the motion, but wished merely to ask some explanation, in the hope of obtaining, if possible, from the noble earl, something like the statement of a ground for this extraordinary proceeding. A message from the Crown, relative to the conduct of the queen-consort, had been delivered to the House; that message was accompanied by papers, containing, it was said, serious charges against her majesty; and these papers had been referred by their lordships to the examination of a secret committee. That committee, however, had never proceeded to the examination and the day of meeting had been adjourned from time to time. There appeared no reason for this conduct; none had been assigned, and none could be as-
1138
signed, except that it was thought necessary for that House to watch what was done in another place. It was inconsistent with the character and dignity of the House to have its proceedings controlled by what passed elsewhere; and yet, that it was subject to that control, appeared from the repeated adjournments which had taken place. The noble earl had spoken of discussions and explanations which had been going on; and, these discussions being ended, the correspondence was laid before the House. Now, he should be glad to know what was the object of laying these papers before the House. None had been assigned; and. he could not help remarking to their lordships the extraordinary and unprecedented nature of this proceeding. There were several occasions in which it was usual for the Crown to lay accounts of negotiations before parliament—as in the case of discussions with foreign powers, when the papers involved the question of peace or war. In such cases, however, the papers were submitted to parliament with a view to some measure being founded on them; but this was the first time, he believed, in which the Crown had been advised to lay before parliament the account of a negotiation carried on between the king's ministers and his subjects. But what was still more novel and unprecedented was, that, when the noble earl had brought these papers to the House, he proposed no measure respecting them. He did not suggest the necessity of any farther proceeding relative to them. If the committee was to sit without reference to these papers, why was the House called upon to take them into consideration? But the noble earl desired their lordships to direct their attention to the correspondence, and consider whether it was necessary to found any measure upon it. He contended that it was, in the first place, the duty of ministers, who already knew the nature of the papers, to say whether they were such as called for consideration, and ought in their opinion to form the ground of some measure. But the way in which they had acted now resembled their conduct on every other occasion when any difficulty or embarrassment arose. They constantly showed a disposition to shrink from their duty, and to divest themselves of the responsibility of giving advice to the Crown. In this spirit they proposed, on the present occasion, to shift from their own shoulders a duty

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which particularly belonged to themselves, and to throw it on that House. If this were submitted to, it would only complete that disgrace into which the House had already appeared so much disposed to fall.
The Earl of Harrowbydid not know whether there was properly any question before the House; but he could not refrain from making a few observations on what had fallen from the noble earl opposite. The noble earl had very unreasonably made it a charge against the executive government, that they did not proceed in this case by precedent. Now, he would challenge him to show, in the annals of the country, any case which could afford any precedent for the present. If there was no case from which a precedent could be drawn, and if little light could be derived from any similarity between this and former proceedings, the fair inference rather was, that ministers had acted with propriety in not attempting to establish on precedents measures for which no precedent could be found. The noble earl, perhaps, in consequence of his absence from that House, had not been correct in his statement of the cause of the adjournment of the committee. That adjournment had been proposed in consequence of the wish expressed in that House, as well as in another place, that means might be found to spare to parliament and the country the pain to which the disclosures and discussions incident on the investigation might give rise. This wish was expressed as intelligibly as the vote that had been founded upon it. But when the negotiation was now closed, would it not have been rather a ground of accusation against his majesty's servants, if, after they had advised it, they had refrained from laying a full account of all that had passed before parliament? He was convinced it would have been made a charge against them, if, after having entered into a negotiation, they had refused to give the House any information on the subject. The noble earl was also wrong in what he had stated respecting the practice of laying papers before parliament. It was, he conceived, not altogether uncommon for the Crown to lay papers on the table, without calling for any opinion on them. This had been done not merely in matters of minor importance., but at the end of a war treaties of peace had been laid before parliament without any opinion being asked
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upon them. There was, as had already been observed, no similar case. It was in vain, therefore, to object that the proceedings were unprecedented. On a subject not only most delicate and interesting, but also of a nature altogether unexampled, he did think that it was proper for ministers to advise his majesty to call for the wisdom of parliament. It was the first time he had ever heard of such an appeal being made a ground of accusation. Could it be wrong for the Crown to ask their lordships assistance, when obliged to steer a course for the direction of which neither rule nor compass was to be found?
Lord Hollandwished to draw their lordships attention to the real state of the subject under discussion. He understood his noble relation to have been desirous of ascertaining what the drift and bearing of papers laid on the table were—whether they were such as might be expected to prevent the sitting of the committee, or to make their lordships consider that it would be their duty to direct the committee to proceed. When the noble earl who had just sat down argued that the case was unprecedented, he did not take into consideration, that what his noble friend objected to was, not only that the proceedings were without precedent, but that they were without reason also. When there was no precedent to go by, it at least might be expected that then reason would be chosen for the guide. The message from the Crown assured their lordships that every thing had been done to avert the painful disclosures which must unavoidably take place. Besides the papers which accompanied that message another set was now laid before their lordships, without any object for such a communication being assigned. They had but very lately been told that the utmost had been done to avert the dreaded disclosures and now came forth another batch of papers to show that something more than the utmost had been done. But the noble earl acted on the present occasion in a very different manner from what was usually practised when similar proceedings were instituted. When green bags full of accusations against the people were brought down, did ministers content themselves merely with referring them to a secret committee, and refuse to say a word on the nature of the charges? By no means. An inflamed description of the contents of the bags was then given. At present, however, not a word was said,

1141
though, after a secret committee had been appointed, a farther collection of papers was produced without any reference being made to the bearing they were expected to have on the former proceeding. This transaction was of a piece with all the other conduct of ministers. If there was any thing odious to be done, they were perfectly prepared to let it attach either to the Crown or to parliament, as it might happen. Of the consequences they were quite regardless, provided they kept their places. The noble earl had signified that the failure of the negotiation was contrary to his expectation. He qualified, indeed, what he said, by stating, that for a part of the time he had entertained an expectation of a favourable result. On what ground had he entertained that opinion? Their lordships must recollect that the noble earl had expressly stated at the outset, that he had no expectation of any beneficial result from the delay. In proposing the adjournment, he said that he did so without any expectation, on his part, that advantage would arise from the postponement. When the noble earl who spoke last observed, that the postponement was approved by noble lords who objected to the present proceeding, he did not advert to the ground of that approval. Those who were against the appointment of the committee altogether, were, naturally enough, willing to consent to its postponement for ten days. The man who does not wish to do a thing will not readily object to the leaving it undone for a time, in the hope that, in the chapter of accidents, something may turn up to prevent its being done altogether. In this way he, and other noble lords, had certainly wished for the delay; but this was very different from what the noble earl meant. Had the motion of the noble baron (Kenyon), for deterring the appointment of the committee been adopted, the House would have escaped the disagreeable situation in which it was now placed. Since that, every postponement of the committee which their lordships had agreed to had only plunged them deeper and deeper in the mire. Their lordships must now be sensible how much the House would have gained in true dignity, had the advice of the noble baron been followed in preference to that of the noble earl. Their lordships were, however induced to proceed to the appointment of the committee, and a I great part of the lords so appointed
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were persons who must be already acquainted with all that was in the green bag. They might, of course, as well give an opinion on it now as at any future time. But, though appointed, they were not allowed to meet. The fifteen noble peers who composed the committee, and were to be the judges in this case, continued with their functions suspended in the air. Would it not have been better not to have appointed them at all? He and his noble friends had contended that the first vote vas unconstitutional, and therefore consistently maintained, that if the meeting of the committee was to be postponed, it would be better not to appoint it at all. The whole proceeding, as it had been managed, was most disgraceful to the House.
The Earl of Darnleycould not avoid noticing the statement of the noble earl that the delay which had taken place was in consequence of the desire of that House. He positively denied that assertion. The vote of the House, in fact, did express a wish that the committee should be appointed, and nothing else. But it was not the opinion of that House which had been the ground of the delay, but what had occurred in another place. He would ask their lordships whether any of them really believed that the proceedings of the committee would have been delayed bad the House of Commons come to the same vote as that House had? By this transaction he conceived that the House had covered itself with disgrace.
The Earl of Harrowbywas confident that the wish expressed by every noble lord who took part in the debate on the appointment of the committee was, that farther time should be granted for discussion and explanation.
The Earl of Darnleyagain observed, that it was impossible for a moment to doubt that the committee would have sat and proceeded to business, had the House of Commons come to the same vote as their lordships did.
Earl Grey,in explanation, said, that if there were instances of papers having been laid before parliament by the Crown, on which no subsequent measure was founded there was at least no instance during a pending proceeding of fresh papers being communicated without some reference to the manner in which those papers would affect such proceeding. Ministers, in all they had said, had never given a hint as to the view they entertained of those pa-

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pers. They had never told their lordships whether they expected their effect would be to hasten the proceeding which was begun, or to lead to its abrogation.
The Marquis of Lansdownereminded their lordships, that on the day when the message was taken into consideration, he had stated a broad constitutional doubt against the course of proceeding recommended by the noble earl. Every thing which had 6ince occurred convinced him of the propriety of the opinion he then gave; but the noble lords opposite did not on that day hold out the slightest idea that there could be any possible objection to the immediate commencement of the investigation by the secret committee. On the second day, however, before any noble lord spoke a word, the noble earl proposed a course of proceeding by which the committee, though appointed, was to be prevented from transacting business. The whole of this proceeding was roost inconsistent and improper.
The Earl of Liverpoolwas now as firmly of opinion as he was on the first day, that if the committee was to be appointed, the mode which had been taken was the most constitutional, and consequently the best that could be adopted. From the circumstances which had occurred since the appointment, he was also satisfied, that the postponement of the sitting of the committee was not un constitutional, and indeed that it was highly proper. With respect to the justification of the original course, he should not go into that now; but he was fully prepared to explain the grounds on which he had proceeded, as soon as the proper time for that explanation came. All that he had proposed on the second day was, that if the House agreed to ballot for the committee, it should not sit for a few days, in order to give time for a negotiation. He was not then arguing whether it was most proper to proceed to the ballot, or to adjourn the sitting of the committee; but he was confident that the feeling of the House was, that both courses came practically to much the same point. Whatever difficulties presented themselves now, would equally have existed had the ballot been delayed. The noble baron had supposed him to have said, on the first proposition for delay, that he had no expectation of a favourable result to the negotiation; but he believed be did not assert, either that he had or had not any expectation. All that he stated was, that discussions and explanations
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had taken place, but that he knew nothing which could lead him to draw any positive conclusion as to what might be the result. He was perfectly ready to agree to a short delay, and on a subsequent day after the discussions had commenced, he stated that they were such as to render a farther adjournment desirable.
Lord Rollebelieved that there was no question before the House, and, as the whole discussion was therefore out of order, he should if it was proposed to continue it longer, move that the House do adjourn.
Lord Dacredid not see the propriety of appointing the committee originally. The learned lord on the Woolsack had said that the House was not likely to be called upon in its judicial capacity to decide on the contents of the papers on the table, and that therefore their lordships would not be prejudging the question by making a report upon them. But it was not yet evident to his mind what the House of Commons might do, or that it would agree with the noble and learned lord, and therefore he was against the appointment of the committee altogether. For the same reason he saw no propriety in refer ring the present papers to their lordships without some explanation, or some declaration of the course of proceeding which ought to be adopted. He rose, therefore, to ask the opinion of ministers on the subject; he wished to know why they had not given some reason for the further adjournment, and what probability there was that any steps might be taken in the mean time to prevent the inquiry altogether. He wished to know why ministers, as they knew the contents of the papers, did not take the responsibility of acting upon themselves, and tell the House whether they meant to proceed on Friday next or not. He begged the noble earl opposite to explain what was the object and tendency of the documents now submitted to their lordships—how far they extended—and what specific correspondence they embraced. Did they only contain the correspondence that passed between the ministry and: the agents of the queen during this and the last week? or did they contain any information regarding the previous negotiations?
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the usual way of answering such a question was, to desire that the list of papers should be read.
The Clerk was about to read the list

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when lord Rolle reminded the House that the question of adjournment was before them.
Lord Hollandsaid, he should move that the papers be read, in order to see if it was proper that they should agree to the adjournment.
The Earl of Liverpool observed, that the questions were distinct.
Lord Hollandmaintained the right of any peer to call for the reading of papers lying on the table which might have a connection with the question in debate—the reading of an act of parliament for instance.
Earl Spencersaid, there was no question regularly before the House, but the noble earl having laid papers on the table by the command of his majesty, which must shortly come under consideration, the regular way was to read the whole of the papers. Not one of their lordships with the exception of ministers, knew what they contained, so that he thought that the titles might at least be read.
Lord Rollesaid, that if the sense of the House was against his motion he certainly should not press it. He had moved it on perceiving that there was no question before the House.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, the only motion before them was the question of adjournment. How far the speeches which their lordships had heard bore any reference to that question, it was for the House itself to decide, but for his own part, he should say that he was not able to discover any. Any noble lord might introduce topics, the application of which it would be difficult to see until he had made it himself.
The Clerk then read the titles of the papers. [For the Papers themselves see this day's proceedings of the Commons.]
The Earl of Lauderdalewished to know whether it was the intention of ministers to lay before the House any previous communications on the same subject. The House had been told at an early stage of those proceedings, that the utmost efforts had been made, and now papers were brought down which ought in justice to contain all that had passed. It was a maxim which every day's experience confirmed, that those who judged on a partial view must judge imperfectly, so that if any thing had passed antecedently to the papers now communicated, it was foolish and vain to think of arriving at any correct determination on those imperfect do-
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cuments. The House must have the whole of the information before it, in order to come to a right opinion. The noble earl had seen the whole, and was capable of recommending some proceeding. They had only seen a detached part and were consequently incapable of judging as to any proceeding.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that there was but one paper of a date anterior to the 9th, and that he should feel no difficulty in communicating it.
Lord Erskinecontended, that his majesty's ministers ought not to demand the opinion of parliament on the late proceedings without giving information on what had previously taken place. The papers now laid on the table contained the official correspondence of a negotiation instituted for the purpose of endeavouring to bring about an accommodation without the necessity of making disclosures. Before their lordships could judge of the propriety of that negotiation, they should be informed of the nature of the charge against the queen, and the evidence on which it rested. Their lordships were called upon to give advice to the Crown on this delicate question; and how could they advise his majesty what to do, without knowing the nature of the charges against the other party? The ministers who possessed the documents in which they were contained, could alone decide with propriety, and ought therefore to take the responsibility of deciding. It was plain that the House could not. He, for one, would never deliver an opinion till he was made acquainted with the whole of the charges. Some thought that her majesty's name should be restored to the liturgy, that she should reside in England and enjoy all the rights and privileges belonging to her station: and how could he or any other noble lord, deliver an opinion for or against these claims without knowing the grounds on which they were denied her? It was not from any desire to see the green bag opened that he thus spoke; but he found himself under the necessity of so expressing himself, when called upon to decide on the result of a negotiation without knowing the reasons why it was begun. He had consented to the appointment of the secret committee: he did not think such a committee either illegal or unconstitutional, but that was not the question now before the House. The question was, whether they should decide without having that information

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which ought to form the grounds of their decision.
The meeting of the secret committee was postponed to Friday.