Sitting of 2 June 1820

TIMBER DUTIES.
General Gascoynepresented a petition from some merchants, ship-owners, and otheiss, in Liverpool. The prayer of the petition might appear somewhat inconsistent, as it favoured a relaxation of the Navigation laws, and yet opposed any alteration of the acts respecting foreign timber. They expressed themselves much interested in not narrowing their trade with our North-American colonies. He should say no more at present upon the subject, reserving himself till a city member, who had given notice of a motion connected with this question, should bring the subject fully under discussion.
Sir Isaac Coffinobserved, that the statement of the petitioners was quite incorrect. Instead of the timber, as they alleged, being colonial, and which was imported into this country from Quebec, the fact was, that such timber was the growth of the north-west part of the province of New York. He had himself written to lord Bathurst on the subject, for such was the effect of that trade between our American colonies and the United States, that in the last war our colonies were wholly drained of silver. The sooner a duty was put on the importation of that timber the better. We had, by the preference given to that trade, lost a good customer in Russia and the other Northern States.
General Gascoynesaid, that as far as the knowledge of his constituents went, they believed the timber imported from the British American Colonies to be their growth. It was also to be recollected, that the return sent from this country in payment of that timber was in salt, to the amount of 40,000 tons.
Ordered to lie on the table.

MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
This Bill was committed, and considerable discussion arose respecting the ex post facto operation of a clause, legalizing marriages minors where no suits had been commenced for avoiding them within

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six months after the attainment of twenty-one.
Dr. Phillimorecited several cases of infinite hardship occasioned by nullity of marriage in consequence of minority.
Mr. Wrottesleymoved an amendment to the effect, that parties so circumstanced should have six months after the passing of the bill within which suits might be commenced though both parties had attained majority.
After several observations from Mr. Wynn, sir J. Nicholl, and Dr. Lushington, a division took place, when there appeared, For Mr. Wrottesley's Amendment, 50; Against it, 43: Majority, 7.
Mr. Bennetproposed a clause which had been suggested last year, but not adopted, to deprive persons of full age I who should marry minors, of the power of annulling such marriages by suits instituted by themselves, at any time or under any circumstances On the ground of minority. The licences were in most cases' obtained by the wilful perjury of the adults, and it was therefore highly improper that they should be at liberty to | derive a double advantage from such perjury, first, that of accomplishing the marriage, and next, that of avoiding it.
Sir John Nichollopposed the clause as contrary to the principle of the Marriage act, which rendered inoperative marriages so contracted, with respect to all the parties. This proposal had, it seemed, been rejected last year, and he thought correctly.
Mr. Tennysonsaid, that although it was not without becoming hesitation that he differed from the right hon. and learned judge upon such a subject yet as he thought that the purport of the clause had been misunderstood, he did not despair of satisfying him of its propriety. In the first place, it had not been before rejected, as the right hon. gentleman supposed, for he (Mr. T.) was the individual who bad then brought it forward, and had merely withdrawn it at the instance of the hon. and learned member who introduced the bill, lest, though he knew not why, it should not be acceptable in another place. Next, he thought, that so far from being at variance with the principle of the Marriage act, it was precisely correspondent to that principle, which was a principle of protection to minors against indiscreet connexions. It was amply sufficient for this object to enable the minor to avoid the marriage, without leaving the adult at
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liberty to do so, and thus to expose such minor, who was most commonly the female, to more than the mischief of contracting an improper marriage, namely, to the risk of being afterwards abandoned with a family of children to shame and disgrace. It had occurred too frequently that a designing miscreant had thus sacrificed an innocent victim to his lust; and he trusted the legislature would no longer tolerate practices, which, independently of what had been justly observed respecting the perjury attendant upon them, were not only repugnant to morality and decency, but, as he conceived, to the principles of the Marriage act itself. He should therefore cordially support the clause, and entreated the concurrence of the learned judge.
Sir John Nichollsaid, that he certainly had misunderstood the purport of the clause, but now comprehending its object distinctly, he entirely acquiesced in its propriety.
Dr. Lushingtonobserved, that the clause required some alteration, and it was in consequence ultimately postponed, in order to be introduced in a subsequent stage of the bill.—The House then resumed, and the report was ordered to be received on Thursday.

PROTECTING DUTIES—IRELAND.
Mr. Curwen,on presenting a petition from the woollen cloth manufacturers of Keswick, took occasion to remark upon the state of their trade, observing, that the petitioners deprecated the intention, which they understood existed, of continuing what were called the protecting duties upon Irish linen.
Mr. V. Fitzgeraldwas averse to protecting duties, and would oppose their imposition, if they were now about to be laid on; but he thought that the manufactures of Ireland ought to meet with encouragement as well as those of England. He wished his right hon. friend would state what course it was his intention to adopt, for that would serve to remove from the minds of the manufacturers in Ireland that suspense, which was highly unfavourable to them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that the subject was at present undergoing a special inquiry; but he had no hesitation to state, that it was not in his contemplation to propose the immediate repeal of the duties alluded to. Those duties had existed since the Union

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for the advantage of the Irish manufacturers, and it was proposed to continue them for some years longer, upon a principle of gradation, in order to afford the parties immediately interested an opportunity of preparing for their total repeal.
Mr. W. Parnellthought a system of protecting duties inconsistent with the sound principles of political economy, as hey could only be meant to force a manufacture. The duties alluded to had, however, existed in Ireland for 20 years, and if that period were not sufficient to afford the Irish manufacturers an opportunity of preparing for their repeal, what assurance was there that their further continuance, or that any proposed principle if gradual reduction, would have the effect which the right hon. gentleman professed to have in view?
Mr. Ricardoobserved, that it seemed to be admitted on all sides, that these protecting duties ought to be repealed. They had existed for 20 years, which surely was a period quite long enough to give the Irish manufacturers an opportunity of preparing for their repeal, if any such opportunity were necessary; and he really could see no reason for their further continuance.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that the proposition of a gradual repeal of these duties was deemed necessary, to afford time to the parties immediately interested, to prepare for their ultimate and complete repeal, which it was in the contemplation of his majesty's ministers to propose.
Mr. Hutchinsonexpressed his concurrence in sentiment with the hon. member for Portarlington, as to the principle of protecting duties; and if the duties under consideration were now for the first time proposed, he apprehended that few would be found to support the proposition. But from local knowledge, as well as from general information, he was enabled to say, that the immediate repeal of those duties would be productive of the worst effects in Ireland. It was therefore wise on the part of ministers to determine upon some further continuance of that degree of protection to the trade of Ireland which these duties afforded, as that trade was known to stand so much in need of encouragement. It was very desirable that those engaged in this trade in Ireland, should not be kept much longer in suspense as to the intention of the chancellor of the exchequer; for as the duties alluded to were not long to continue ac-
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cording to the existing law, the parties interested felt it difficult to decide what course to pursue.
Ordered to lie on the table.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to which the Army Estimates were referred,
Lord Palmerstonrose to move the Army Estimates. In proposing those estimates to the committee, he did not feel it necessary to go through an explanation of each particular item: he would confine himself chiefly to those in which there was any material variation from the charge of last year. The committee would perceive that there was this year an increase of force, amounting, including officers, to 11,745 men, making an increase of 220,000 l. There was also an increase of regimental charges amounting to 363,647 l., and on the miscellaneous services of 61,000 l. The noble lord stated the reasons for these increases in so low a tone as not to be audible in the gallery. We understood him to say, that in the recruiting service there was an increase of 5,319 l.; last year it had fallen short, and, considering the number of deaths and desertions, an addition of 5,000 l. was deemed necessary. On the other hand, some reduction had taken place in the pay of certain officers in the barrack department, from 1l. 15 s. to 1l. 10 s. per diem. He saw some hon. members smile at this, but he only mentioned it to show that a real desire to economize existed on the part of his majesty's government. When reductions were not made, it excited the clamour of some of the gentlemen opposite; and when they were made, it served only to excite their ridicule. In the staff there was a decrease of 13,000 l.; it had been found necessary to increase the number of general officers by two in England, and one in Scotland; and these had their respective establishments of aides-de-camp. A small diminution had taken place in the medical establishment, from the number of invalids who had been taken off the hospital establishment. In the contingencies of the English staff there had been an increase of 2,305 l.; in the Irish staff there had been a diminution of 3,000 l., owing to the reduction of the number of general officers in that country. But, since those estimates had been made out, it had been found necessary to add one major-general to the number of the Irish

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establishment, which was not at present included. [Here the noble lord was seized with sudden indisposition, which for some time prevented his proceeding. He resumed his seat for a moment, then again rose and addressed the House; but, after two or three ineffectual attempts to proceed, his indisposition seemed to increase, and, by the advice of some of his right hon. friends, he sat down without bringing the estimates to a conclusion.]

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Mr. R. Wardrose, in consequence of the indisposition of his noble friend, to move the Ordnance Estimates. The right hon. gentleman began by stating, that although many persons were of opinion that our military establishment was too large, he was persuaded that it was not greater than the circumstances of the country demanded; The increase of expenditure in the department with which he was connected, amounted on the whole to 133,000 l., and for the sake of greater clearness he would divide the different heads of expenditure into three classes. The first class was composed of such articles of increased expenditure as were the necessary consequence of regulations, which had either been approved by this House, or in some instances sanctioned by the laws of the country. The second consisted of those articles which were rather matters of arrangement than of additional expense; the third was composed of those items which certainly added to the expenses of our military establishment, but which were justified by the circumstances of the times. The first head he would mention was one of 10,000 l., composed partly of the amount of the increased expense of the ordnance military corps, and partly of other items which it was not in the power of the House to control. There was another item of 3,000 l., being the amount of gratuities granted for increased services and good conduct to persons in the civil department. The principal source of the increased expenditure was that arising from the additions to the half-pay establishment and to superannuations. These items amounted to 55,000 l., which was nearly half of the excess which he had set out with stating to the House. The second class, which consisted rather of matters of arrangement than of additional expense, was confined to the military contingencies of the ordnance establishment.
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In the miscellaneous charges was an item of from 25 to 26,000 l. for allowances of bread, money, meat, beer, coals, &c, the excess under this head amounting to 3,500 l. Among these items was one to which he flattered himself the House would most cheerfully accede, he alluded to a sum of 6,000 l. charged to the body of the account for the expenses of the trigonometrical survey, which was commenced under the auspices of the late general Mudge. Under the head of unprovided services in the ordnance department the amount stated was 40,000 l., though the real amount was not more than 25,000 l., and this arose from there being balances in hand equal to the difference of those sums. The third head consisted of those items which constituted an absolute addition to the expenses of the ordnance department. Against these additions it would be necessary to set the savings which had been made in this year; not less than 19 establishments in this department, the expense of which amounted to 500 l. per annum, had been put down. Eight establishments in the West Indies, enumerated in the estimates, had been completely put down. These sums added to the former made a saving in the ordinaries of 5,000 l., and in the extraordinaries of 11,000 l., making a saving in the whole of 16,000 l. After deducting this sum the whole amount of the increase of expenditure would be 133,000 l. The right hon. member stated, that he was ready to answer any questions, and to give any explanation which might be required upon the subject, and concluded by moving, "that a sum of 293,691 l. 8s. 8d. be granted to his majesty in full of the charge of the office of ordnance for land service, for Great Britain, for the year 1820."
Mr. Humethought that, in calling the attention of the committee to the amount of these estimates, he should save the time of the committee, if, instead of entering into minute particulars, he looked at the total amount under each head. The object of the committee should be, to see what was the total expense of the ordnance service for this year, compared with that for the last; and whether the circumstances of the country were such as to warrant the present amount. With this view he should take the simple method of showing the difference between the estimates of the last and the present years, rather than follow the

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plan which had been taken by the right hon. gentleman in laying his statements before the committee. In the year 1819, the total of the ordinary expenses had amounted to 527,397 l.; but in 1820 they amounted to 548,304 l.; making an increase of more than 20,000 l. Then, on the score of extraordinaries, be wished the right hon. gentleman had stated all the items of increase, that the committee might have heard the grounds on which they were deemed necessary to the service. It appeared, however, that the total for last year was 220,821 l.; and for this year, 280,389 l., making an increase of more than 60,000 l. on the extraordinaries for the year 1820. The total amount of ordnance expenses for Ireland last year was 101,000 l., but this year it was 111,986 l., leaving an increase of nearly 11,000 l. The result, therefore was, notwithstanding all that had been said about economy, that the total extraordinaries and ordinaries for Great Britain and Ireland, which amounted in 1819 to 849,230 l., amounted in 1820 to 940,680 l., making an increase of 91,450 l. for the present year. Now with regard to the other three items of the estimate, he observed that the amount of half-pay and compensations for services in the ordnance military corps was 293,690 l. last year, and that this year these allowances amounted to 333,584 l., being an increase of 60,000 l.: the expenses of the civil department, consisting of allowances to those, or to the widows of those, who had held offices of a civil nature in the ordnance service, were last year 38,984 l., but this year they were increased to 40,589 l.: and with regard to the remaining item, comprising retired allowances granted since last year, the reduction which had taken place in 1819, in consequence of these retirements, amounted to 10,000 l., but in 1820 there was only a saving of 5,000 l. on that head. The aggregate amount of the sums under the three heads which he had last mentioned was 342,674 l. in the year 1819, and 378,307 l. in the present year, making an increase of 35,633 l., exclusive of the increase which he had before pointed out in the extraordinary and ordinary expenses. It appeared, therefore, that the nett expense of the whole ordnance establishment for Great Britain and Ireland, which had been last year 1,191,905 l., was this year 1,319,854 l., making a difference of 127,949 l.; and this increase of expense
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had been imposed on the country since last year, notwithstanding the anxiety which ministers professed for economy and retrenchment. He thought the country had a right to expect that these expenses, as well as the other branches of our military expenditure, should be made to approximate to the scale of charges which existed in former times of peace. On looking back to the amount of these estimates before the late war, it would be found that in the year 1792, the total sum voted for the ordinary and extraordinary expenses of the ordnance service was only 377,898 l., and the Journals of the House would show that the average sum voted for the whole expense of the ordnance establishment during the six years preceding 1793 did not exceed 310,000 l. But if they took the average expense of the last six years of peace, they would find that there had been an average increase of 800,000 l. At the same time, he thought it would be unfair not to state, that a considerable portion of this increase arose from half-pay and retired allowances, which amounted respectively during the years 1819 and 1820, to 293,000 l., and 333,000 l. He would therefore take this opportunity of saying, that it was in vain for any individual to criticise the various items of expense in a committee of that House: for economy could be introduced effectually by those persons only who had the superintendance of the service. At page 7 of the estimates he observed a charge of 7,500 l. made for repairs and other contingencies at Gibraltar; and he would ask, if this was any proof of a desire to economise? He contended, that if there was a surplus revenue collected at Gibraltar, it should be applied to defray the expense of repairs and the other charges of the fort; at all events, he thought these charges should be paid out of the money so raised, before any part of it went into the privy purse. He was also at a loss to see what right ministers had to include the expense of the Ionian islands in these estimates. By the treaty of Paris, the king of Great Britain was made protector of the Ionian islands, with an express provision that they were themselves to defray the expenses of a military establishment not exceeding 3,000 men, and that if this country should think fit to keep up a greater establishment in these islands, it should defray the increased expense. That treaty had been made under the con-

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viction that the revenue of the islands was sufficient to keep up their military charges, and he regarded it as a charter by which the protection of Great Britain was secured to these islands on the one hand, and on the other it was stipulated that we should not be at the expense of supporting their military establishment. He therefore entered his protest against the charge of 3,000 l. which was included in these estimates, under the head of the Ionian islands. There was another article of expense which he had mentioned last year, and which was perhaps not worth alluding to at present—he meant the expense of manufacturing gunpowder. He believed there was at present in this country a stock of powder sufficient for twenty years of peace, and yet he saw that in the two royal powder-mills at Feversham and Waltham-abbey, there was an annual charge of 10,500 l. for repairs and labour. He did not challenge this item in particular, but he wished to point it out as worthy of the attention of the House. The hon. gentleman next called the notice of the committee to the list of pensioners who had received retired allowances since last year. If the noble duke who presided over the ordnance establishment was as anxious for retrenchment as the right hon. gentleman had represented, was he warranted in giving an individual, for three years services, a retired pension equal to one-half of the salary he received while in the service? He had been led to believe that it was not in the power of ministers, without violating an act of parliament, to give pensions for less than ten years service, except in cases of sickness. Yet in this list there was a person who had been only three years in the service, with a salary of 90 l., but who now received a pension of 45 l.; another who had been four years in the service, received also 45 l., being one-half of his former salary; and another who had been 5 years employed, and whom he supposed to be a young man, from his being only a junior clerk, had also an allowance equal to half the amount of his salary. Two other persons, after 9 years service, with salaries of 175 l., had allowances, the one of 75 l., and the other of 85 l.; and he would ask if this was consistent with the act which had been passed to regulate pensions? The report of the committee which had inquired into that subject, and of which he believed the hon. member for Corfe castle had been chairman, said ex-
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plicitly that there was nothing to oblige the country to pay pensions to those persons whose services had been dispensed with, unless their services were such as to entitle them to an allowance. The right hon. gentleman might perhaps be able to explain the grounds on which these pensions had been granted, but he could not see that any economy had been practised on the occasion. He would recommend the appointment of a committee to revise the whole of the system; for, without impugning the intentions or the knowledge of those who had the charge ef the establishment, he conceived that from their very situation they were prevented from viewing the subject as they should. He gave the noble duke at the head of the ordnance credit for the reductions which he had made in the foreign departments, but he was confident there was room for still greater reduction and consolidation in these departments, especially in the store-keeper general's department. If a proper system of consolidating these establishments were adopted, he was convinced that nineteen more appointments might be reduced before next year, without rendering the service less efficient than it was at present.
Mr. R. Wardsaid, that the hon. gentleman in the course of his remarks had not pointed out a single place or establishment which he thought should be suppressed. He called on the hon. gentleman to name one that could be dispensed with; though he did not pledge himself that those who had the charge of this department of the public service would accede to the recommendation of the hon. gentleman, because he conceived that from their experience they were best able to judge what establishments were necessary. He thought, however, that he had already stated sufficient proofs of the sincere desire which the noble individual at the head of the ordnance had to make every reduction for the sake of economy that was consistent with the efficiency of the establishment over which he presided. Those petty clerks on whose pensions the hon. gentleman had animadverted, were not he believed, known even by name to the noble duke, who had granted them pensions on the recommendation of those who were acquainted with the nature of their services and their claims. He was completely at issue with the hon. gentleman on the construction of the act of parliament which the hon. gentleman had erro-

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neously called the act of the member for Corfe-castle. It was in fact Mr. Perceval's act; for Mr. Perceval had been chairman of the committee, and had as such brought in the bill. The House were in possession of all particulars relative to the offices which had been suppressed, and the terms of the half-pay usually allowed upon their suppression. The whole of the estimated cost of those in the West India department did not amount to more than 700 l., or perhaps 800 l.; and the half-pay was not more than 45 l. He would put it to the House, whether there was here any waste of the public money? Still, however, he would allow, that if those offices were not entitled to half-pay under the act of parliament, those who had allowed it were blameable; but he defied the hon. gentleman to prove that they were not so entitled. There was an excess upon these estimates, as he had already stated in his opening speech, of 133,000 l. at the utmost, in the year: and upon that account alone, more than upon any reasoning which he had advanced, the hon. gentleman appeared to insist that there could be no economy in the ordnance department. During the whole of that hon. gentleman's speech, he could really discover no other point but this—that there was an excess, and therefore there could be no economy. Now, he had not adverted to the nature of the different articles constituting that excess, most of which were articles of necessity. The hon. gentleman had stated that there was an excess of 80,000 l. upon the extraordinaries of the last year; but in this he had made a mistake. With all his accuracy, his penetration, his acumen, and his disposition to impute blame to the ordnance department, he had decidedly made a mistake. He could not have perrused the estimates of the last year. [Mr. Hume here intimated that he had said 60,000 l. not 80,000 l.] The tendency of the hon. gentleman's observations went to show, that the excess was 80,000 l., and the whole statement could only have resulted from the hon. gentleman's not understanding the article of stores. If the hon. gentleman looked at the estimates of last year, and then at those of the present, he would find that the difference between 80,000 l. and 60,000 l. (the real excess) resulted from the circumstance, that 20,000 l. for old stores had not been credited to the ordnance. The hon. gentleman seemed to have assumed, that the
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country was in the same state now as it was in the year 1792. But would any man pretend to say this was really the case?—that all the articles which found their way into these estimates were at the same prices during the two periods?—that the situation of the empire was not very materially altered? Why, on the contrary, hon. gentlemen would find that the establishment itself, being almost double the pay of military corps, was almost doubled also. They would also find that a vast number of new charges were necessarily created by that increase. In the first part of his speech, the hon. gentleman seemed to have considered the difference between the estimates of a period he had selected, and those of this year, at 800,000 l., upon an average calculation: to be sure, in his calmer mood, and upon calculation, he had rated it afterwards at somewhere about 400,000 l. Now, before the year 1792, the ordnance estimates, altogether, were not more than 400,000 l,; and the total allowances for military half-pay amounted to nearly the same sum. The only way, however, to judge of the question, was, to compare the ordnance estimates of the present time, with those of some period before the war, and to look at the principle upon which the difference between them had proceeded. In order to see this the better, he (Mr. Ward) had been at the trouble of examining an old ordnance estimate made at a time of profound peace. He had taken the year, not 1792, but 1788, which was between the peace of Paris and the breaking out of the revolutionary war. He knew of no reason which had actuated him in doing so, but that it was a year of peace succeeding a long war; and because he thought it would serve to show how this subject should be viewed. In 1788, the ordnance estimates were 419,000 l. In considering what were the real expenses at the present time, as compared with 1788, he thought it was but right that they should deduct all articles from each estimate which were not articles of actual service—for example, the half-pay: and from the charges for services, those which were dead expenses; not expenses of an actual nature, but inevitable ones. To take, then, the total increase of the charge, as had been suggested by the hon. gentleman, the real expenses of the department at the present time would be 1,380,000 l.: whereas, upon the principle he proposed to follow, of de-

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ducting certain expenses not of an actual nature, the estimate of 1788 would be in fact only 398,000 l. From that of 1820, by the same rule, they would have to deduct for half-pay, and for allowances, compensations, &c, 374,173 l. and for incidental expenses, 1,487 l.; which deduction would altogether amount to 375,660 l. Then, again, there were a vast number of services in the present ordnance department which did not exist in the year 1788; and in making this comparison between the two periods, it was not proper for him to throw them out of the calculation. For example, in 1788, there were no horse-artillery, therefore that could be no article of such comparison; but new services of this kind formed the reason of such excess. Then there were the expenses for Ireland in the present estimate—these amounted to 111,986 l.; and these were not to be charged before the Union. The charge for the horse-artillery was 348,000 l. At the time alluded to (1788), this service was so imperfectly performed, that it was found necessary to press into it any common carters that could be found. The forage and supply of draught horses were charged at 12,916 l., and contingencies at 7,000 l. But, in short, without entering into a more minute recapitulation of the details, all these various services amounted together to 645,000 l. which deducted from the total expenses of the present period, namely, 1,380,000 l., left those actual expenses for the year 1820, as compared with 1788, 735,000 l. He hoped he was clearly understood, and particularly begged to call the attention of the hon. gentlemen to this part of the subject. There was still therefore an excess of actual expense, in 1820, of 337,000 l. over the charge of 1788; this sum being the difference between 735,000 l. and 398,000 l.; an excess which was to be accounted for, principally by the increased efficiency of the establishment. There were the pay of the director-general of the field train, and the total charge on the reduction of the ordnance military corps; the one item being 3,072 l., and the other 5,000 l. to enter into that account. It might be said, that that reduction should not have been made at 5,000 l.; but so long as the country allowed it to stand in that way upon the estimate, he must presume the country considered it a proper establishment. The next point of difference in this comparison was, that in the year 1788, the total pay of the artillery was 113,000 l., whereas it
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was now estimated at 244,451 l.; the excess of this charge, therefore, accounted for 131,451 l. The establishment of the artillery corps in 1788 consisted of only eight companies; whereas now, the addition of a large body of sappers and miners, and the improvements, made it infinitely more effective than it had ever been before, and occasioned a difference of 8,000 l. The utmost charge for pensions and superannuations in this department, for Great Britain and her colonies, was, in 1788, not more than 134,900 l.; whereas, in 1820, it stood 181,175 l. But he would only ask hon. gentlemen to look at the state of the empire; since 1788, fourteen or fifteen new colonies had been added to it; and they would see how much the establishment had been of necessity enlarged. He apprehended that he should not be very far off from the truth, when he said that the navy, for instance, had been almost doubled since 1788, as to the number of ships of the line frigates, and armed vessels; and the gun-wharfs at the ports of Plymouth, Portsmouth, and Chatham, were all under the direction of the Board of Ordnance; and yet the difference in the charge for pensions in remuneration of inventions and improvements in the artillery service, and to superannunted and disabled men and pensioners, between 1788 and 1820, a period of 32 years, was not more than 47,000 l.; although this resulted after such a continued war, and such an extension of empire. Realty, the difference must be considered, under the circumstances, almost nothing; and the Board of Ordnance, instead of incurring blame, had some claim, he thought, to the approbation of the House, because it was no more. The expenses incidental to the Tower, and the other forts and garrisons, which in 1788, were about 18,000 l., were now 35,000 l.; and another item (which we did not hear) that was then rated at 60,000 l., was now 150,000 l. Such too was the case of barracks, of which there were then comparatively very few, but which had greatly increased in number during an unintermitting war of so long a duration. The inference to be drawn from the taking these various differences into account was, that the Ordnance department, so far from being to blame for an increase of its estimated expenses of upwards of 330,000 l. since 1788, was rather entitled to credit for confining the excess to such a sum. The hon. gentleman had asked a

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question respecting the military general secretary. He had asked, whether any increase of his pay had been recommended? A former finance-committee had recommended that it should be 800 l. a year, but the hon. gentleman might have heard, that since that time another committee of finance had recommended that it should be 1,500 l. a year. Here the right hon. member replied to the several observations which had been made by Mr. Hume relative to the charge of 7,500 l. for Gibraltar. He could assure him that the Board of Ordnance was innundated with memorials and reports from different engineers attached to the various fortresses, declaring their inability to answer for the maintaining, with the funds allotted to them, their respective works in a weather-tight condition. The hon. gentleman perhaps knew that the whole sum applicable to such repairs was 80,000 l. and that was found totally insufficient for these purposes. With respect to his questions, he (Mr. Ward) did not feel himself called upon to answer them; and what the hon. gentleman had thrown out, might form the matter of a specific motion. Since 1818, however, he understood there had been no surplus revenue applicable to the repairs of the fortress of Gibraltar; and therefore it was perhaps impossible to effect the hon. gentleman's wish that it should be made subservient to such an object. The same observations would apply to the case of the Ionian Islands. The right hon. gentleman then went on to defend the propriety of the board's keeping its faith with its servants, by retaining in its employ those artificers of gunpowder, with whom it had been a stipulation at the time of their engagement, that they should not be turned adrift; and observed upon the unrivalled quality of the gunpowder now manufactured by those in the pay of government; whereas, the badness of the government gunpowder (as it was termed) was, during the American war, the subject of frequent remonstrance and complaint. After some further remarks upon the absolute necessity of retaining the works at Feversham and Waltham-abbey on their present footing, the right hon. gentleman concluded by saying that while the charge of 10,500 l. was objected to, it should be remembered, that if government were to dispose of their immense stores of saltpetre, charcoal, and sulphur, which were materials not of a perishable nature, and therefore easy of
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keeping, the public would lose between 200,000 l. and 300,000 l.
Mr. Creeveysaid, an extraordinary answer had been made to an objection which he felt an interest in, as it was similar to one which he was about to make. When it was objected that a sum should not be voted for Gibraltar because there were other means of supplying that expense than by a vote of parliament, it was answered, that it should be made the subject of a separate motion, and this too in a committee of supply [Hear, hear!]. Now, he would not consent on the part of the people of England to pay for the repairs of forts at Barbadoes and the Leeward Islands. He would produce an act of the assembly of Barbadoes which provided for that express purpose without burthening the people of England. The hon. member then read the Act of the Assembly of Barbadoes of 1663, declaring that it was necessary for several purposes relating to the government of those colonies, and specially for "the reparation of the forts," that a competent revenue should be raised, and that for those purposes they granted a duty of 4½ per cent to be levied on all imports [[Hear!]. What, then, had they to do but to apply this revenue? He would prove that the revenue existed. There were papers before the House showing that the duties had produced 57,276 l. a year. But it had not been applied to the purposes of the colonial act, and he would tell them why. Instead of repairing the forts, 1,500 l. was given from it to the right hon. Charles Long; 500 l. to sir Home Popham [For what service? from a member on the ministerial side]. He did not know for what sir Home Popham had got it, but not, he presumed, for repairing the forts. Mr. Huskisson had another pension, lord Hood another, the hon. Fulke Greville, and lady Mansfield another, with various others, and by these several lords and ladies and gentlemen, this fund was swallowed up, which should go to the repair of the forts. There was the Colonial act creating the duty, there was the money raised by it, and which, instead of repairing the forts, went into the pockets of ladies and gentlemen [Hear, hear!]. This was a subject which had been before spoken of, but never discussed adequately, because it had never been discussed by itself. The act bore date 1668. For some time after, it was not applied as it should be. In the time of queen Anne the planters of Barbadoes pe-

817
titioned the Crown on the subject, and the House of Commons addressed the Crown. Mr. Secretary Vernon, from the queen, declared to the House that the fund should be thereafter applied to the reparation and erection of forts, &c. In the Civil List act of that day, in going over the small hereditary revenues, the 4½ per cent duties were always excepted. So far was he from thinking this was not a fit time for bringing forward this subject, it was, in his opinion, the very time. They should tread in the steps of the House of Commons of the reign of queen Anne. He was quite sure that when the question came to be understood in the country, that it would not be endured that they should vote a sum for the reparation of the forts in the Leeward Isles, when there were funds specially for that purpose. He was sure that the country would not, without dissatisfaction, see its representatives not only not apply this money to its proper purpose, but put it into their own pockets, and burthen the people to make up the deficiency. When the process was understood, it would not belong endured. His experience gave him considerable expectations on the subject. When he first made a motion on the two overgrown tellerships of the exchequer, he was almost hooted out of the House, such was the clamour at his having thought of invading the sacred rights of property. But the progress of opinion respecting those offices, after that exposure, was speedily such, that the noblemen found all at once that the circumstances of the country were so peculiar that they could not feel justified in retaining the superfluous emolument, and after receiving it for 19 years, begged to be relieved from it for the future. They knew that though there were only 45 members in the House against them there was not one man in the country for them. The pensions charged on the 4½ per cent fund, were so contrary to law and decency, that he was quite certain that when the thing was fully known, the ladies and gentlemen would all be desirous to take their leave [a laugh]. He was happy to find that it was lately stated in the House that a prospective claim of 1,500 l. a year on this fund had been abaudoned. He had not before known the fact, but he hoped to, see the lords and ladies drop off one by one. He should take the sense of the committee upon the subject, and if defeated he should divide on the report,
818
and if he was not then successful, he should make a specific motion on the subject. His intention was, when the vote came which embraced that item, to move an amendment to omit the expense of the fortification of the Leeward Islands. As to another subject, he remarked that the confusion of the estimates of the military half-pay and civil super-annuations was a violation of the act of the 50th Geo. 3rd, ch. 15. In the army estimates, the expenses were, in obedience to that act, stated separately under each head.
Mr. R. Wardcertainly did not mean to go into a discussion on the great question of the 4½ per cent duties, and their proper application: it was a question on which great difference of opinion existed; but it had recently been debated in both Houses of Parliament, and the majorities had declared themselves of the opinion which was now acted on by government. But in steering clear of discussion he said distinctly that the hon. gentleman had proceeded on ex parte statements, in coming to the conclusion he had come to. His opinion was founded on certain words which he had found in an act of parliament; but he could assure the hon. member that there were many other material particulars to be taken into consideration in deciding the question, and he had heard the present practice defended in a very able manner by the late lord Melville. He said, therefore, again, that the hon. gentleman's statement on the subject was an incorrect and garbled one. The item objected to would be open to discussion when the resolutions came to be reported. With respect to the alleged violation of the act 50th Geo.3rd, the accounts were now stated as they had always been since it was passed, and he saw in them nothing contrary to its provisions.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that the hon. gentleman had excited his astonishment and sorrow, and done himself very little credit by the manner in which he had treated one of the most liberal and public-spirited acts ever done in this or in any country—[Hear, hear!]. The lofty and generous conduct of the marquis, of which the hon. gentleman had spoken so lightly, had drawn forth the universal respect and gratitude of this country, and he believed of Europe. The hon. gentleman had taken on himself the credit of having compelled the noble marquis by the observations he had made in the House, to give up those official emolu-

819
ments, for his voluntary and noble sacrifice of which he bad received the thanks of the two Houses of Parliament, and of the common council and the corporation of the city of London. Speeches of the character of the hon. gentleman's held out little encouragement for disinterested conduct and did not tend to induce others to resign private rights for the service of the public. The hon. gentleman who was putting forth this suggestion might surely have remembered, that long before his observations, proper or improper, were heard, so early as the year 1812, the two noblemen to whom he alluded had surrendered a large portion of their incomes to the necessities of the country. Upon the minds of such men, the observations of the hon. member must have acted rather as checks than as incentives to such a surrender; and it evinced no common magnanimity to triumph over the feelings which such attacks were calculated to inspire. The right hon. gentleman concluded by adverting to Mr. Creevey's observation upon the Leeward Island duty, and asserting that from the time of William 3rd, with one exception in the reign of queen Anne, those duties had always been considered as part of the revenue of the Crown, and as one of the funds peculiarly applicable to the reward of public services. Whatever question with regard to those duties there might arise between the legislature of these islands and his majesty, there could not possibly be any between the islands and the grantees, and it was equally as clear that if his majesty should restore to the sole use of these islands the funds in question, the House would have to make good those pensions which were now paid out of the 4½ per cent duties.
Mr. Humereferred to the reports of the finance committee to show that from 1715 to the year 1786 the 4½ per cent duties had been included in the revenue. It was not until the last-mentioned year, when the consolidated fund was established, that they were no longer comprehended in the general revenue, so that the right hon. gentleman's statement respecting them was perfectly unfounded.
Mr. Bennetmaintained, that in the original act of parliament imposing the 4½ per cent duties it was expressly stated that they were for assisting in the protection of the Leeward islands. Subsequently, in the reign of Charles 2nd, they were taken as a part of the hereditary
820
revenue. In the reign of William 3rd two acts passed, applying them to the same purpose. But the whole of these misappropriations of the duties was nullified by a decision in the reign of Anne, which took from parliament and the Crown the power they had assumed on the subject, and applied the duties as they had been originally applied in 1663, to the support of the fortifications of the Leeward islands. In the early part of the late reign, pensions had certainly been settled upon the fund in question: the duke of Gloucester had for some time a pension upon it. The receipts, however, became, during some years, deficient: the duke complained that he did not receive his revenue, and the pension was removed to the consolidated fund. By and by the receipts increased, and became again sufficient to answer the former demands; and then, of course, the duke of Gloucester's pension was restored to it! No such thing: the duke remained upon the consolidated fund, and the 4½ per cent duties were saddled with new charges in favour of new pensioners. As to the two noble lords, of whose sacrifices so much had been said, it was difficult to know on what ground they had acted as they had done, for it was difficult to know the motives of men's hearts. They had never thought of surrendering that to which they were entitled until a year after the subject had been mentioned in that House, and until a strong feeling of disgust at their hesitation to disgorge what they had obtained at the public expense had been manifested throughout the country. He thought that persons like the noble marquis, who were ultimately induced to resign their sinecures, in the distressed situation of the country, instead of being so highly panegyrised for their generosity, ought to be called on to refund the countless thousands they had previously received of the public money for no adequate service whatever.
Lord Castlereaghdid think, and he was sure the feelings of the House and the country would go with him, that the mode in which the two honourable members had expressed themselves, in relation to the fees of the tellerships of the exchequer, was neither fair, candid, liberal, nor just. It would have been but justice to say, that this fund had lapsed into the hands of the noble marquis, who had exhibited such unexampled disinterestedness and public spirit in sacrificing his

821
rights to the necessities of his country, from a father on whom the office had been conferred as an inadequate reward for eminent public services. For when he had retired from an elevated situation in the profession, which his talents and Learning had long adorned, that office had been conferred on him as a small compensation for his services, and to make a provision for his family. He could not conceive any thing more hostile to the exercise of exalted public principle, than to see two hon. members indulging in the feelings displayed that night: one taking to himself the merit of having compelled a renunciation of income which was purely voluntary, and an almost unparalleled instance of patriotism; the other making it matter of taunt and accusation that the noble lords had not refunded all the profits they had ever derived from the offices.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrepeated his assertion, that the noble marquis in question had made large sacrifices to the public interest long before the observations in parliament of the hon. gentleman opposite.
Lord Miltonobserved, that there was one circumstance respecting the office held by the noble marquis, to which no allusion had been made either that night or previously. It was well known that a judicial office had been held by his father, which usually enabled its holder to amass a large fortune. That office he had resigned; and it should alwa3's be remembered what the cause of that resignation was. It had taken place because he believed it necessary to the defence of the rights and liberties of his country—believing that to save a compromise of his principles, he was obliged to separate himself from the administration then in power. It was upon the question of the Middlesex election, that, differing in opinion from his colleagues, he had thought he could no longer retain the chancellorship. The recollection of this fact should endear the memory of the father, and secure for his descendant the respect and attention of the country.
The several resolutions were then agreed to.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
Lord Palmerstonagain rose to bring forward the Army Estimates. He commenced by referring to particulars; and first to the staff, on which he said there was a total saving of 13,701 l. In the barrack department there was also
822
a saving of 4,800 l.; and in the office of commander-in-chief, of 231 l., in consequence of a change of the secretary. In the War-office the saving was 3,531 l., the principal item in which was 2,557 l. on arrear accounts. The House was probably aware that there had been a large arrear of unsettled accounts arising out of the war and other particular circumstances, provision not having been made for the accumulation of business. An addition of persons to bring up this arrear had received the sanction of the Treasury: the whole charge, including foreign correspondence, was formerly 56,812 l.; but on the year 1820 there had been a reduction of 37,216 l., of which 9,365 l. had been wholly discontinued, and the expense of an establishment amounting to 10,000 l. had been transferred to another department. It was also satisfactory to find that the arrangement had been effectual for the purpose for which it was destined. In 1811 only two accounts remained unsettled; in 1812 only eight; in 1813 only twelve; in 1814 only eleven; in 1815 only six; in 1816 the same number, and in 1817 only twenty-one. In the whole, 1399 accounts had been passed, and there were only sixty-six on which any question still subsisted, and those questions arising out of circumstances not within the control of the office. The effect of the arrear department had been to save the public a much larger amount than the whole expense of the War-office for the year; 69,276 l. had been either recovered or saved, of which 7,929 l. had actually been paid into the Bank of England, and the remainder deducted from accountants on the settlement of their balances. Under the head of hospital expenses there was an increase of 9,600 l. which arose thus: at the end of the war there had been a large quantity of medecine in store; it had been consumed by degrees, and latterly it had been necessary to obtain a fresh supply. Under this head was also included a charge of 2,100 l. for the Opthalmic hospital, of which so much had been said last year: the number of patients was 100, or only 21 l. for each patient. The experience his lordship had since had of the advantage of this institution confirmed all the opinions he had formerly entertained and expressed. In the volunteer corps there had been an increase of 47,831 l.; the British part of that increase arose from the establishment of new corps.

823
The total amount of volunteer corps in Great Britain was 25,000 cavalry and 4,950 infantry. In Ireland they were entirely infantry, and a reduction had been made there of 6,995 rank and file, and a saving in charge of 2,000 l. effected. The present amount of Irish yeomanry might be stated at about 20,000 men. In the Royal Military College there had been a diminution of expense to the extent of 3,702 l.; still further reductions were in progress; ths senior department, after the 24th of June, would be removed to Sandhurst, and the number of officers was to be lowered from 30 to 15, and a more rigid inquiry would be instituted into their competence, so that the public might be fully assured of the ability of those allowed to study there. The cadets in the junior department were reduced from 320 to 290, and the professors had been proportionably diminished. It had been ascertained that the charge for the effective part of the military college next year, would not exceed 15,900 l., or about 3s. per day for each person. In the pay of general officers, there appeared from the estimates on the table an increase of 3,111 l., arising from the reduction of certain regiments last year: by previous regulations certain general officers were allowed to fall back on these allowances. Under the head of garrisons there was also a small increase of 979 l., arising from certain transferences that had been effected. In the article of full pay for retired allowances, a diminution would be noticed of 87,848 l., arising out of the formation of the veteran battalions, the officers for which were taken out of those receiving such allowances. In the half-pay and military allowances there would be seen an increase of 49,837 l., occasioned by a number of persons being placed upon half-pay by the disbandments of last year. In forming the veteran battalions it was found that some could not serve from age, wounds, and other causes, and their names were allowed to stand in this list; and such Officers as were taken upon full pay were in all cases deserving objects, whether from length of service or otherwise. Under the head of half-pay to officers in foreign corps there was a diminution of 4,161 l. arising from casualties. In the in-pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham-hospitals, there was a small increase of 1,604 l.; but in the out-pensioners there was a diminution of 85,967 l., produced
824
in a great measure by the formation of the veteran battalions: there was also a balance of 20,000 l. in the hands of the agent for Chelsea-hospital, for which credit was taken. In the Royal Military Asylum a diminution would be observed of 982 l. In the widows' pensions there was an increase of 10,763 l. Before he quitted the subject of Chelsea-hospital, the House might wish to know what had been the result of the examination of the pensioners for the veteran battalions. The total number that presented themselves was 15,026: of these 12,305 were found fit for duty: 1,862 did not attend, but the greater number made sufficient excuses. Such as were at first held fit for duty were again examined, and 3,348 of them were discharged, leaving in the whole 8,957 for the service for which they were intended. Although a great number did not attend pursuant to order, his lordship wished to rescue the men from any imputation that they wished to absent themselves from the call: they came with the greatest alacrity, and with much satisfaction entered upon their new duty with their increased allowances. Such as had two children likely to become liable to the parish were not received. In what was called the compassionate list, bounty for wounds, &c, an increase of 9,815 l. would be found, and in the superannuation and retired allowances a similar increase of 1,898 l. On the whole view of the subject, taking in all the smaller items, it appeared that there was a reduction of 11,745 men and of 224,000 l. In reference to the veteran battalions it was fit to observe, that the charge made for them included 18,500 l. as the expense of clothing them; but as they had been furnished from the stores of the war left on hand, credit had been elsewhere given to that amount. The House might wish to know the expense arising from this measure: including the clothing, it was 360,000 l., increased by the charge for organization. Against this was to be set, the pensions of the men 85,000 l., the saving of pay of retired officers 35,000 l., and credit for half-pay to the amount of 12,000 l., The sum saved was therefore in the whole 132,000 l. and the charge upon the country, including clothing, 360,000 l.: deducting the one from the other, together with 18,500 l. for clothing, left an additional charge upon the public for the veteran battalions, of 210,000 l. He had been blamed, on a former occasion, for

825
not entering more at large into the reasons which had induced ministers to think this addition to the force of the kingdom necessary: he could only repeat now what he had said before, that the reasons for this increase of force were so notorious to every person in the country, that he should consider any attempt on his part to argue the necessity, not only a waste of time in the House, but as trifling with the public understanding. If the justification of this measure were not sufficiently established by the events which had taken place since August last, he was certain that no argument he could use, and no eloquence ever heard within those walls, would carry conviction with it. The noble lord then moved his first resolution, "That a number of land forces, not exceeding 92,586 men, and also 676 men proposed to be disbanded (but exclusive of the men belonging to the regiments employed in the territorial possessions of the East India company, or ordered from thence to Great Britain), commissioned and non-commissioned officers included, be maintained for the service of Great Britain and Ireland, from 25th December 1819 to 24th December 1820."
Lord Nugentstated, that it was not his intention on the present occasion to go into all the objections which he entertained to the resolution now moved. One reason for his declining to do so was the evident indisposition of the noble lord. His objections, too, did not so much apply to the details embraced in the estimates now laid upon their table, as to the principle of maintaining so enormous a military establishment in time of peace. It was an establishment which he saw nothing to justify in the situation of Europe, or in our own domestic circumstances. The noble lord had not attempted to bring forward any argument to prove its necessity, but had rested its defence on the ground of public notoriety. Such a ground might appear satisfactory to the noble lord, but, in his opinion, a large military force was not a suitable remedy for popular discontent, arising from actual misery, and increased by the disastrous state of our finances. If complaints of taxation were to be met by enlarged establishments, it was obvious that we should move on in a circle till some final rupture took place between the Crown and the people, the issue of which must be either to confirm disaffection, or to establish a military government and a military police. Having made
826
these general observations, he wished to ask the noble lord one or two questions with regard to certain points in these estimates which he did not at present clearly understand. A sum of 406,000 l. was charged to defray the expense of the veteran battalions embodied last year, but he had not succeeded in ascertaining whether the number of men included in those battalions was 11,745 or 8,957. He wished also to inquire, as it was generally believed that the militia would be embodied in August next, what number of men were to be raised by ballot, and also what increase had taken place during the last year in the yeomanry cavalry? He must repeat, however, that independently of these considerations, he thought the vote to which the House was called upon to agree was most alarming, and he should take another opportunity of stating the many objections to which he thought it open.
Mr. Fyshe Palmerwas anxious to draw the attention of the House to the subject of the driver corps, the skeleton of which was still kept up in Wales, but for what purpose of national utility he bad not been able to discover. He apprehended, likewise, that if the military college was still necessary, it ought to be placed on the most economical footing. He was far indeed from admitting that necessity, and was persuaded that one-half of what was laid out at Sandhurst would cover the entire expense of Marlow. It appeared to him that a most enormous sum had been expended in buildings, from which the public service could derive no adequate compensation.
Mr. Humeconsidered that the House and the country were much indebted to an hon. and gallant officer (colonel Davies) who had recently called their attention to the subject of our military expenditure. It was undoubtedly a little singular to find, in the first place, so large an increase in the number of life-guards. That number, in the year 1792, was 695, and now amounted to 1,305. He was sure he was not exceeding the truth, when he estimated the cost of every individual in that corps, including horses and accoutrements, at 142 l. per annum. In the accounts on the table it appeared to be no more than 70 l. per annum, but this was exclusive of the charge for horses. With regard to the aggregate amount of our military establishments in this the sixth year of peace, he thought the House must feel deep re-

827
gret at the contemplation. These estimates, too, it must be recollected, did not comprehend more than half of the total charge for the year. It was very difficult, indeed, to get at the entire account; but by a statement in one of the reports of the finance committee, the whole military expenditure of the last year, including the ordnance service, was represented to be 9,991,000 l. If to this were added the sum of 224,000 l. for additional charges in the present year, the total amount would exceed 10,000,000 l. He was satisfied that so large an establishment was out of all proportion to the exigencies of the country, that it was bad policy to attempt keeping down a population by an overwhelming military force, and that whilst corps of yeomanry were in a state of efficiency, a very great diminution might be made in the regular regiments. The charge for those regiments stationed at home was, 1,509,000 l, and of those on foreign service 1,067,000 l. One half of this expenditure arose in the colonies; and it was a question which he trusted would not escape the attention of his majesty's government, or of the legislature, whether the resources of these colonies might not be made available to their support and defence.—He hoped the House would indulge him whilst he now offered a few observations on some other branches of our military expenditure. In beginning with the staff he must express a decided opinion, that this would admit of more reduction than any other charge. If they looked only a few years back, indeed to the year 1814, it would be found that the personal allowance of the commander-in-chief was 9l. 9s. per diem, but it had subsequently been raised to 16 l. 8s. 9d. The salaries and allowances of the secretary and other officers were also increased, and the ground upon which these additions were justified was, that the number of regiments had been increased from 100 to 265, and that the official labour of those individuals was augmented in the same proportion. Surely, then, the present state of the army afforded as strong a reason for now reducing those allowances. The charge for the whole staff was 30,353 l. He was happy to see the right hon. the judge-advocate (Mr. Beckett) in his place, as he was about to make some allusion to the increased allowances which had been made for his office. He believed that in sir C. Morgan's time those allowances did not exceed 2,040 l. per annum, since which
828
time they had been raised to 5,000 l., as he presumed, on account of the increased business, during a war, carried on upon so extended a scale as the last. Was it too much, then, to ask, now that peace had arrived, and the right hon. gentleman had comparatively nothing to do, that the establishment of his office should be put upon its former footing? Agreeing that a liberal consideration ought to be paid for legal knowledge, it could not be denied that what was sufficient for services rendered to an establishment of 260 regiments, must be more than enough under circumstances so altered as the present.—He would now solicit their attention to what appeared to him an extraordinary transaction. On the face of these estimates there appeared a deduction from the charge on account of the Ionian Islands of 11,000 l. He was surprised at tin's statement, because he held in his hand a return made by order of the House, and which return showed that the expense of the military staff in the Ionian Islands was 10,446 l., and that only 2,680 l. was paid out of the colonial funds. But it also appeared that Great Britain paid not only the expenses of the military, but of the civil government of those islands, amounting with contingencies, to 145,203 l. The House would easily judge how far this was consistent with the treaty of Paris, or with the constitution which had been granted to them. By the 8th chapter of the constitution it was provided, "that all expenses incurred in supporting the military force, and expenses of every other kind, shall be paid out of the general treasury, as far as such expenses apply to the maintenance of 3,000 l. men." The Ionian states were bound to support a military force of 3,000 l. men, and if any addition were made to that force, the charge was to fall on Great Britain. But the force actually maintained did not exceed 3,000 men, and yet Great Britain was paying every farthing of the expense.—With regard to the military college at Sandhurst, he had been much misunderstood as to what had fallen from him respecting it on a late occasion. He was far from entertaining any wish to see it put down; but if kept up at all, it ought to be kept up in a state of efficiency. After the expense which had been incurred in erecting buildings, he should indeed be sorry to see it abandoned, but he thought a very limited sum would answer the purpose of maintaining its utility. It appeared that during

829
the years 1816, 1817, and 1818, there were 400 cadets qualified to receive commissions, and that in the following year there were 320, making an average on the four years of 390. Of these 100 ought to have received commissions, had government been disposed to avail themselves of the advantages arising from the system of education at the college. Commissions, however, had been granted only to 76 in the course of three years, the whole expense of the establishment for which period was 78,000 l., being a charge of 1,040 l. for the education of each individual thus called to an employment in the public service. If this education was as advantageous and useful as it was represented to be, he did not see indeed, why every officer should not receive it, being persuaded that its benefits might be communicated at a very reduced expense. Whether the commissions were obtained by purchase or without purchase, did not seem to be very material; and of the 76 persons to whom he had alluded, some had obtained them in the one way and some in the other. All he meant to contend was, that all the advantages of the institution might be derived at a much cheaper rate. It had been said that the expense was only 3s. per head, but the staff of the establishment alone amounted to 6,500 l. At Woolwich, where the education was at least equally advantageous, the charge was infinitely less. But at Sandhurst there was a governor with 1,500 l. a year, and a deputy-governor with 1,000 l., besides allowances for horses. There were also 26 professors to instruct 290 young men, and to their salaries was to be added the charge for clerks and servants. He was making no exaggerated statement, but merely representing what appeared on the estimates themselves. If there was not a sufficient number of commissions for those who were educated with a view to them, he conceived that it would be proper to narrow the admission of cadets. He was aware that a great deal might be said as to the situation of many officers children, but they ought not to overlook the necessary distinction between a state of war and of peace. If bounty was all they had in view, objects would never be found wanting; in that respect the supply would always be found equal to the demand.—There was one other point which he conceived to be of very great importance—he meant the half-pay; and he would briefly state to the House the view he took of
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that subject. By a return laid before the House last year, it appeared that there were no less than 1,665 captains, 3,663 lieutenants, and 12,000 cornets and ensigns, on the half-pay list, since which time near 600 had been added to that number. It was a matter of important consideration whether means should not be adopted to take those individuals from the half-pay list, and place them on full pay, by providing them with situations in the army. Every one must know that the greater part of those gentlemen would hail with pleasure any prospect of their being actively employed in the service; and by such an arrangement the half-pay, which amounted to a very large sum, would be saved. According to the return to which he had alluded, the commander-in-chief had granted commissions to 296 individuals without purchase, and in the same year they were placed on the half-pay list, thus adding an additional sum of 16,000 l. to the list. If, instead of incurring an additional charge of 16,000 l., the same number of individuals had been placed on the regular establishment, there would now have been a difference of 33,000 l., which would have been saved to the country in the single class of cornets and ensigns. If that were the case how much greater must the saving have been, in the higher classes? Many of those individuals had been 20 or 25 years in the service, and were therefore entitled to be placed on the regular establishment, on full pay, instead of employing those who had not seen service. He trusted that every thing that could be done would be practised, to lessen the expenditure in general, and that next year the estimates would appear before them reduced to the amount of some hundreds of thousands. Without the intervention of a committee, the propriety of instituting which he had before suggested, this could not be done, unless by the intervention of the heads of the several offices; and he trusted that the illustrious individual at the head of the army, and all those who were now receiving salaries on the ratio of a war establishment, would see the necessity, for the general good, of returning to a peace establishment.
Colonel Daviesregretted that those individuals who took an active part in the discussion of a corn bill, or a commercial or agricultural measure, did not seem inclined to devote their talents to the important subject now under consideration.

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When he recently introduced this vital question, he had regretted that it did not meet with due attention. He did not mean to enter into the subject now, but there were one or two questions which he was anxious to have answered. In the first place, he should be glad to know, as the late patentee for supplying the army with medicines was dead, what was the intention of government with respect to the necessary supply in future? Mr. Garnier, the late apothecary-general, had received a patent empowering him solely, to supply the army with medicines, which he did at the rate of about 50 per cent dearer than the ordnance department was supplied. The commissioners of military inquiry, in their fifth report, had recommended the purchase of the patent; or, if the patentee would not give it up, that on his death, the office should be abolished, and a more eligible mode of providing a supply of medicines be adopted. As the demise of the patentee had taken place, he wished to know what course had been selected for supplying the army with medicines, whether by contract or otherwise. He should also be glad to know, whether there were any militia embodied in the Ionian Islands, as he perceived there was a considerable staff there?
Lord Milton,in reference to 11,000 discharged men that had been called out in the course of the last year, wished to know whether that was done without any vote of parliament. As far as he recollected, no vote had been agreed to on the subject. The number of the army on the 25th of March last exceeded, by 11,000 men, the number voted by the Mutiny bill in 1819. The number of men was stated annually in the preamble of the Mutiny bill, and these 11,000 men were arrayed when parliament was not sitting. No notice had been taken of this circumstance during the last session; at least no official notice. The noble lord might perhaps have mentioned it, incidentally, in his speech, but no vote of that House had taken place with reference to this subject. He could not conceive why it had been thus passed over.
Colonel Trenchwas anxious to offer a few observations in defence of the establishment at Sandhurst. It was described as unfitted and unsuited for the purpose contemplated; observations were made on the extent of the fund appropriated to its support; and reflexions were also cast on the mode of education pursued in that
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seminary. As to this last point, he would leave it entirely in the hands of the board of general officers, to whom it was intrusted, and who were so well calculated to regulate the system of education. As to the policy of the establishment, he had no doubt of it. War, he admitted, was an evil, and he had heard it said, that institutions of this kind induced young people to imbibe a strong predilection for arms. Evils of this nature might subsist; but if they did, he thought they were more than counterbalanced by the solid substantial benefits derived from a good education. It must be evident to every person, that our troops, both at home, and abroad, must be more useful, and less likely to give offence, if instead of being commanded by boys not inured to discipline or well grounded in military science, they were placed under the guidance of those who had been regularly reared to the service, who possessed those attainments and acquirements that were necessary for a military life. These advantages, it appeared to him, were to be found in this institution; and therefore he wished to see it supported. He need not panegyrise the talents, the integrity, the justice and impartiality of that distinguished personage who had so long presided over our military institutions, and who gave his utmost support to this establishment. Every soldier knew, that to eradicate bad habits, and to implant good ones, was a most difficult task, and from the commander, who was the right hand of war, to the lowest soldier who took part in the battle, all admitted that their gratitude and esteem were due to the founder of an institution which was calculated to produce the best moral effects on the army. When he considered the arduous situation which that illustrious individual filled, and the various important duties which he had to perform, he could assure those who thought otherwise, that he was by no means overpaid for his exertions. With respect to the education of the young gentlemen, it comprised fortification, mathematics, drawing, and the modern languages. But what afforded him, in the course of his observations, the greatest degree of pleasure, was the infinite pains which appeared to him to be taken to perfect them in ancient and modern history, particularly the history of England. They were also furnished with works which were the best calculated to teach them the nature of British liberty,

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and to give them an insight into the principles of the British constitution. They were allowed for their amusement the perusal of the daily newspapers, and of various periodical publications; so that they were not kept in ignorance of the prevailing political opinions of the times. And yet he had heard individuals say that this establishment was nothing but a nursery to rear up janisaries for future despots. He looked also to the institution as a monument of national gratitude erected to those heroes who had fallen in the service of their country—who had exalted the glory of the British name, and ensured the security of the British empire. He could quote more than one instance of a brave soldier dying on the field of battle, and while drawing his latest breath, reflecting with pleasure that this institution was open to receive his children. To those who thought that the children of soldiers who had thus fallen should be provided for, it would be pleasing to learn, that from nine hundred to one thousand had been educated in this institution since its establishment. It was not too much to say that they had been rescued from vice and ignorance. He looked upon them as the children of the nation, and trusted that their welfare would never be neglected by their country.
Mr. Bennetsaid, the noble lord had stated that the Ophthalmic establishment cost the country about 2,000 l. a year. He had heard that it was extremely well conducted—that the patients were well treated—and that the whole establishment was carried on in a highly creditable manner. Of this, however, he had no knowledge himself. But he had also heard of a board of medical gentlemen whom his royal highness the commander-in-chief, had called on to examine it, and who gave a very different view of the establishment. After what the noble lord had said, he was at a loss to state the matters contained in the report of those gentlemen. Amongst these were Dr. Macgregor and Dr. Franklin, men of acknowledged judgment; and when he found that these persons, so instructed by the commander-in-chief, had performed the duty allotted to them, and had given a very different account of the institution from that which he had heard, he thought it was a subject that deserved to be inquired into. These gentlemen, in their report, stated, that so far from success, there had been great failure—that so far
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from there being great novelty, the system was almost entirely old. Many of the objections contained in the report, if well founded, were in his mind decisive. It had been said, that a combination of medical men connected with the army was formed against sir William Adams, who was at the head of this establishment. This, he thought, was not a fair way of treating individuals who held opinions different from those maintained by that gentleman. If they had entered into a conspiracy to destroy the fair fame of sir W. Adams, it would be a good reason for removing them from their situations. The truth was, that in his opinion they had entered into no such conspiracy: they appeared to be warranted by facts in the conclusion at which they had arrived t they had indeed made out a case of almost entire failure. The noble lord said, that new and successful means had been resorted to for restoring the sight of patients in this establishment, while the medical gentlemen declared that there was no novelty and no success. How, then, were they to judge between the noble lord and the gentlemen whom he had mentioned? For his own part, he thought that in cases of opacity of the cornea, and other diseases of the eye, Dr. Macgregor, Dr. Franklin, and other medical men were better judges than the noble lord. If he thought that the disabled soldier would obtain relief from this new system, as it was called, he would willingly vote a much larger sum than 2,000 l.; but he very much doubted that any such benefit would be derived from it. In one of the abstracts, giving an account of 15 persons who had been examined, the classification was as follows:—One was improved; six improved in part; three in the same situation: four said they were better; and one had the right eye rendered blind by the operation. There was a rule in the army, that no operation should be performed on a soldier in an hospital without the concurrence of a board of surgeons. Sir William Adams, it appeared, had not proceeded on this principle, and the report very properly recommended, that he should not be allowed to perform operations, or, as the gentlemen expressed it, to put out the eyes of people under his care, unless another surgeon were present to give his opinion on the particular case. This recommendation, he trusted, would be attended to. It was alleged, that the failure was in many cases to be attributed

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to the number of desertions that took place from the establishment. He did hot wonder that desertions should occur; for those who saw the eyes of their companions injured, would naturally be anxious to get away to preserve their own.
Mr. Goulburnstated, that there was a militia set on foot in the Ionian islands, the drilling and superintending of whom had devolved on the staff. Whether they were so occupied at present he could not say. The hon. gentleman, in answer to the observation made by Mr. Hume, observed, that that there was a saving of upwards of 11,000 l. on the staff in the Ionian islands, which he conceived to be a very considerable diminution of the expense. It was under this head a deduction from the military expenditure; and to that extent the country must be a gainer, even admitting that the general scale of expense in these islands was not a decreasing one.
Mr. Barhamsaid, his hon. friend had taken an erroneous view of the Ophthalmic establishment. He had got hold of a pamphlet, entitled "A Report submitted to the commander-in-chief on Ophthalmia;" and he seemed to conclude that it contained the judgment of a board of persons, to whom it was referred to decide on the disputes relative to this establishment. This was entirely a mistake: it was a private publication, printed by themselves, and was merely the reply of one party to the statement of the other. The hon. gentleman stated the number of pensions granted for diseases in the eye before the appointment of the Ophthalmic institution, and the number of persons pronounced incurable by army-surgeons cured at the Ophthalmic institution, in order to prove the utility of that institution.
Mr. Pricesaid, he had conversed with many persons who had relations in the hospital, all of whom concurred in speaking of it in terms of the highest praise. There were some who, after having been three or four years in other places under the army surgeons, and discharged at length as incurables, were restored to sight by sir William Adams.
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, that the respectable individual at the head of the establishment now under consideration, had been hardly dealt with in many instances, and regretted that his hon. friend, the member for Shrewsbury, should have spoken as he had, under a misconception
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of the services which that individual had rendered to thousands afflicted with the most distressing malady. His hon. friend seemed not to be aware that the experiment had proved successful after a trial of ten years. He did not impute to him any improper motive, but he was satisfied in his own mind that a conspiracy was formed against sir W. Adams by other persons, and that the most satisfactory evidence could be produced on the subject, if the House should deem it expedient to refer it to a committee. It was not his intention to attack the army medical board, but in his soul he believed that a conspiracy existed somewhere, the object of which was not only to injure sir W. Adams, but, if possible, to annihilate his professional reputation and practice. This hostility appeared to have originated in the ophthalmic controversy which was brought upon that gentleman by his having undertaken to cure the opthalmic in the army, at the solicitation of government, after application had been made to every other quarter without success. The House and the public at large ought to be made acquainted with this most disgraceful combination, and the more so as some persons of influence with the public had lent themselves to the purpose, by which means the public had been deprived in too many instances of the benefit of his skill and experience. The weapons employed by this confederacy were not those of fair competition. The adversaries of sir W. Adams had resorted to means more disgraceful, but far more effective. They had falsely and maliciously misrepresented his character and professional conduct; they had worked upon the fears of the timid, misled the judgment of the cautious, and attempted to prejudice all those who had not the means of ascertaining the truth. It was therefore to be hoped that the House and the country would protect a greatly injured individual, for it was impossible but that he must have been seriously injured in his professional practice by the efforts of so extended a conspiracy as had existed against him for the last five years. The whole offence of sir William Adams was, that he had successfully combated a most destructive disease, which had previously resisted the utmost efforts of the medical profession. It was a melancholy fact, that upwards of 6,000 soldiers had been dismissed from the service blind with opthhalmia. He had gone through the whole establishment himself,

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and seen several soldiers who bad been blind for four, and some of them ten years, restored to sight by his skill."
Mr. Bennetread an extract from the report of the three medical gentlemen appointed by the board, in which they stated, that the appearances were still more unfavourable than before. He did not mean to deny that sir W. Adams had performed great cures, but that they were not so numerous as to justify the continuance of the establishment.
A Member, whose name we could not learn, asked whether it was the intention to keep up the volunteer infantry, as the cavalry alone, he thought, should be retained? Another item was 30,000 l. for the local militia, which was a useless expenditure, as that force was never likely to be called out again.
Lord Palmerstonreplied, that there were no charges for infantry, and that it was the temporary and superseded character of the local militia which occasioned the expense now charged under that head. What were called skeleton waggons, were in perfect repair, and it would be against every principle of economy to sell or destroy them. The art of driving them was not to be acquired at once by a peasant or a ploughman. He thought Sandhurst preferable to Marlow for the situation of the military college. The commander-in-chief had had an increased allowance since 1814, but it was in lieu of other allowances previously given to field-marshals. The duke of Wellington got the same, the fluctuating allowances of field-marshals having been exchanged for a fixed sum. He then proceeded to defend the salary assigned to the judge-advocate, which he maintained was deserved by the services of that officer, who was in constant communication with the military commanders at Ceylon, the Cape, the Ionian islands, and also in Ireland, now that the office of judge advocate was abolished in that country. With respect to the observations which had been made on the Military College, they did not appear to him to be well founded; and really as to the calculations of the hon. gentleman regarding it, he confessed his inability to follow them. He maintained, that not more than a proper number of commissions had been granted to the cadets educated there, and those only upon a full conviction of the merit of those to
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whom they were assigned. He must maintain, that due regard had been paid to the officers on half-pay, in giving them a preference to vacant commissions; they succeeded to them as often as was consistent with the interests of the army, but certainly not on all occasions; for if none but they were thought fit to succeed to them, there would be an end of all emulation in the army as there would he an end of all promotion. A noble lord had asked him how he reconciled with the constitution and the articles of the Mutiny act, the levying of 11,000 men without the consent of parliament, which had been ordered by the Crown in October last. To this he would answer, that the circumstances of the times were so pressing as to require the assemblage of such a force, and that it had been communicated formally to parliament as soon as it met, and had received its consent and ratification. In conclusion, he defended the Ophthalmic establishment; and stated that though sir W. Adams, whom he highly eulogised, had been severely attacked by several medical men in the army, their censure had never been formally communicated to him, and indeed was only; known to the public by report. He himself had the highest opinion of his skill; for he could say, from his own personal knowledge of the fact, that he had cured many individuals who had been blind for a long series of years.
Lord Nugentmaintained, that the answer which the noble lord had just given to a question proposed to him by a nobles lord was by no means satisfactory. Those 11,000 veterans were certainly levied in a manner contrary both to the Bill of Rights and to the articles of the Mutiny act.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he could never be brought to believe that there was any thing blameable in the transaction alluded to. The Crown had called those troops into existence, it was true, in October last; but no sooner had parliament assembled, than this fact was made known to it.
Lord Palmerstonmaintained, that, according to the argument of the noble lord, the Crown could not, in any emergency, however great, levy a number of men without the consent of parliament. If this were the case, in what a dangerous situation would the country be placed, if a foreign foe were to land in the country during a dissolution of parliament!
Lord Nugentwas ready to admit, that

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in case of actual insurrection, or the landing of a foreign force in the country, such a privilege might be allowed to the Crown as had been recently assumed by it.
The resolution was agreed to; as were the votes of the various sums to meet the expenses of the army.

FAILURE OF BANKS IN THE SOUTH OF IRELAND.
The Marquis of Lansdownewished to ask the noble lord opposite whether his majesty's government had

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received any information on the unfortunate situation in which the south of Ireland was at present placed. The greatest distress, he understood, prevailed throughout the southern districts of that country, owing to the failure of some of the banks, which deprived persons in business of all means of carrying on trade. One principal bank had failed for about 300,000 l., and would not, it was supposed, pay a shilling in the pound; and the others were not yet in a condition to go on in the ordinary course of their business. In this state of extraordinary embarrassment, he could not help hoping that the Bank of Ireland would be able in some degree to prevent the calamity from increasing, and he wished to know whether his majesty's government intended to take any steps for that purpose.
The Earl of Liverpoolwas in some measure apprized of the unfortunate circumstances to which the noble marquis had alluded, but he had as yet received no official communication on the subject. He was, therefore, not prepared to say what it might be thought advisable to do, or whether his majesty's government would think fit to interfere in the case.
The Earl of Lauderdaleexpressed his regret at the distress to which the question of his noble friend referred, but was at the same time of opinion, that no precedent more fatal in political economy could be set than that of the interference of government in the credit of the country by holding out assistance to individuals. The Bank of England had, in cases of commercial distress, sometimes interfered, because it was its interest to support commercial credit, as far as support could with propriety be given by that establishment. Let the Bank of Ireland therefore imitate the conduct of the Bank of England, and act in the business on commercial principles.
The Marquis of Lansdowneassured his noble friend that he was far from calling for the direct interference of his majesty's government. All that he meant to suggest was, that in case the Bank of Ireland should be desirous to do that which its own interest dictated, namely, to supply the vacuum in the circulation occasioned by the failures to which he had alluded, government would not withhold such assistance as might be necessary to facilitate the operations of the Bank. The necessity of the case was great, as at present, where the failures had taken place, there
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was no circulating medium, and no means of barter or carrying on trade. He was, however, certainly very far from wishing that his majesty's government should interfere to give assistance in the way his noble friend supposed.