Sitting of 3 July 1820

LIMERICK ELECTION.
Mr. Wodehouse 142
brought up the report of the committee appointed to try the merits of the Limerick election petition. It stated that the hon. J. P. Vereker had not been duly elected, and Mr. T. S. Rice ought to have been returned. A resolution was subjoined, in which it was stated that Henry d'Esterre, recorder of Limerick, having been guilty before the committee of gross prevarication, he had been placed in the custody of the serjeant at arms. A second resolution enforced the propriety of laying the minutes of evidence before the House, in consequence of various acts of the corporation brought to light during the inquiry. On the motion of Mr. Wodehouse, it was ordered that Henry d'Esterre be committed to Newgate, and that the evidence be printed.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S VOLUNTEERS BILL.
Mr. Canninggave notice of his intention on a future day to strike out the clause in the bill relating to the payment of the men. He suggested that any discussion would be more conveniently taken on the third reading.
Mr. Bernalobjected to the bill, as he thought the volunteers to the number of 800 wholly needless.
Mr. Canningstated the nature of their establishment under the auspices of the East India company, as well as their probable duties in cases of necessity. He also referred to certain pending discussions on the subject, and to the length of time during which the corps had existed.
Mr. Humeexpressed his regret that so strong a disposition prevailed upon all occasions by the civil power to call in the aid of the military. This step had been taken on Friday last within the city of London, when, as far as he could learn, not the slightest necessity existed. This was a most dangerous practice; he hoped that England would not be changed entirely, but that the civil power now, as formerly, would be paramount. On the occasion to which he referred, a legally established body had met for legal purposes, and yet something like an attempt was made to overawe it by the presence of a military force. It was the duty of magistrates upon all occasions, as far as possible, to avoid calling in the aid of the soldiers, and then the civil power would be both obeyed and respected.
Sir W. Curtissaid, that this was the first time he bad heard that any troops had been in the city on Friday last. He had

143
gone through the city and had seen none, and he believed that none had been there.
Mr. Humeadded, that troops were stationed in Holborn, half of which was within and half without the limits of the city.
Mr. Alderman Woodobserved, that he felt called upon to set the House and the country right regarding the soldiery in the city. Certain it was that a considerable body of life-guards had been called out on Friday last, and perhaps their horses heads might be in the city, and their tails out of it: one of them, fully armed, had come to Guildhall for orders; and the lord mayor had avowed that the military were summoned by his orders. It was not easy to see any necessity for such a proceeding, since no breach of the peace had been committed or contemplated: the meeting was most unanimous, and nothing was more unlikely than a disturbance.
The bill was then read a second time.

COMPLAINT AGAINST THE MAGISTRATES OF CARLISLE.
Lord Lowthersaid, that he held in his hand a printed petition presented on a former day by an hon. gentleman complaining of the conduct of three magistrates of Carlisle: he wished to know what course the hon. gentleman intended to pursue, as the individuals concerned were very reluctant that such unfounded calumnies should go forth without the means of refuting them. His lordship hoped that the subject would not be postponed until the next session.
Mr. Jamesanswered, that early in the next session he designed to bring the subject forward, and that his motion would then be, that the three magistrates who had called in the military under pretence of quelling a riot, when not the slightest disturbance existed, should be called to the bar of the House.
Lord Lowtherregretted that the question was to be postponed, as the accusations were perfectly groundless and unjust.

KING'S MESSAGE—PROVISION FOR THE ROYAL FAMILY.
The House having resolved itself into a committee on the King's Message,
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that in calling the attention of the committee to the message of his majesty, he was happy to state that the votes, seven in number, which he had to propose, were such as would meet with the unanimous concurrence of the
144
House. The votes were merely for a continuation of the allowances which had been made during the late reign to the brothers and sisters of his majesty, and the duke of Gloucester and the princess Sophia of Gloucester, and to place those illustrious personages in the same situation in which they stood previously to the demise of the Crown. He had no hesitation in saying, that under other circumstances than those in which the country now found itself, he might have felt it his duty to call the attention of the House to one or two of these allowances with a view to augmentation. The second resolution, which would be for the allowance to the duke of Clarence, would call to mind, that his royal highness was, with respect to that provision, in a situation inferior to that of his royal brother. He should not now enter into the merits of the decision of the House on a former occasion respecting those allowances, as the Crown had determined to propose no new grant whatever, though his royal highness had now 3,500 l. less than his royal brother the duke of Cambridge. The House and the public would not fail to admire the domestic economy and privacy in which the duke of Clarence had lived, and which alone had enabled him to keep within the parliamentary provision. The duchess of Kent and the infant princess might be also thought to have claims on the justice of parliament; but he should not then propose any vote to them, and he would inform the House that there would be no inconvenience in this postponement, as the prince Leopold, with great liberality, had taken upon himself the charge of the support and education of the infant princess [hear, hear!], hoping, however, that this would be no bar to any claim she might have on the liberality of parliament on a future occasion. Without this liberal proceeding on the part of the prince Leopold, the provision of the duchess of Kent would have been found very limited. On opening the civil list, he had previously stated to the House, that he should have to call on parliament for 24,000 l. to make provision for the servants of the late king. The estimates for this grant would be submitted to the House on Wednesday, and he should at this time shortly state the heads under which provision was to be made to that amount. It was not usual on the accession of a monarch to make any charge for the servants of the former king, as those servants generally continued on the royal establishment.

145
From the peculiar circumstances which attended the formation of the Windsor establishment,—from his late majesty having in fact ceased to reign for some time before his demise, his present majesty had created a royal establishment long before his accession. In addition to the servants, in behalf of whom some allowance was called for, were some annual payments which had been made out of his late majesty's privy purse. The whole sum, which it was proposed to vote, was about 24,000 l. Of this sum the allowances to the servants actually in the king's service at his death, would amount to 9,000 l. The allowances to servants who had been previously superannuated from his majesty's household, to 4,500 l. There were various small pensions charged on his late majesty's privy purse, which had been formerly examined by a committee up stairs, and had been charged on that privy purse by the advice of that committee. At the demise of her majesty, some of these charges yet continued. Several of the pensions were granted by the liberality of his majesty, and could form no claims on the public. Many of them, however, were of a class which called for the consideration of parliament. Of this class the majority were allowances to old servants. These charges on the privy purse, which it was now intended to make parliamentary provision for, amounted to 10,200 l. Of this sum 8,000 l. had been charged on his privy purse by the late king himself; 1,800 l. by the late queen, while she presided over the Windsor establishment, and a few hundreds a year by the duke of York while he was custos. The persons to whom those payments were made could not be supposed to have a claim as of right on parliament, as the principle could not be admitted, that the charges on the sovereign's privy purse were to be made permanent on the public. Yet, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, as no danger existed of forming a precedent, he hoped the House would accede to the proposal. The noble lord concluded with moving, "That his majesty be enabled to grant a yearly sum of money, not exceeding 14,000 l., out of the consolidated fund of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, to his royal highness Frederick duke of York, from 5th July 1820."
Lord Archibald Hamiltonwas extremely surprised that the noble lord had wholly omitted to mention any provision for the queen. He had, more than once, when
146
the noble lord proposed motions to that House relative to the royal family, expressed his astonishment that he did not offer any proposition to parliament for a due provision for the queen. On one occasion the noble lord said, that when the time came for making a provision for the other branches of the royal family, he would then introduce the subject of a provision for the queen. He hoped he had not misunderstood the noble lord; but such he took to be the nature of his answer on that occasion. He now found that the noble lord had come down this day, and moved for certain provisions for the other branches of the royal family, without taking any notice whatsoever of her majesty. This was a matter of very great surprise to him, and, he apprehended, to many other members of that House. From the course pursued by the noble lord, it appeared to him that ministers did not mean to make any proposition to the House, on this subject, during the present session. If he were wrong on this point—if the noble lord would state, that in the course of a few days he meant to submit to the House a proposition relative to a provision for her majesty—he would sit down without making any further observation. He presumed, however, from the silence of the noble lord, that this would not be the case. He was so much surprised at the course the noble lord had taken, that he could not avoid expressing the feeling which at that moment impelled him to ask an explanation from the noble lord, whose conduct, he could not reconcile with his previous declaration. He conceived that it was peremptorily necessary for the House to ascertain immediately the situation in which the queen was now placed, and that in which she was likely to continue. At present, he believed, her majesty had no legal income whatsoever. What she might receive from his majesty's ministers was, in his opinion, illegally granted, and unduly made use of. He understood that her majesty had been told that she might continue to live at the rate of 35,000 l. a year; but he, as a member of parliament, demanded, by what authority that money was advanced? by whom it was paid? and on what principle his majesty's ministers took upon themselves to make any part of the royal family their pensioners? In his apprehension this matter had little or no relation to the discussions that had been lately going on—discussions, the result of

147
which was likely to be so calamitous. But if the members of that House sat there as guardians of the public purse, they were bound to demand explanation relative to all sums that appeared to them to be illegally and unconstitutionally granted. They ought to consult the welfare and dignity of the royal family; and as a member of parliament he felt that dignity to be wholly compromised, and the duty of ministers grossly neglected, if they allowed any portion of the royal family to be placed in the situation of pensioners on the existing government. No provision had been asked for the queen, which was the more extraordinary, because not a doubt could be entertained of the readiness of the House to provide for her majesty. He knew not in what situation her majesty would be placed at the expiration of this session; and it was the more necessary that a proper sum should be voted for her service, since, if the proceedings now in progress went on, she would have occasion for a much larger command of pecuniary resources than she possessed at present. It was one singular feature of this unfortunate and calamitous case, that, at a time when her majesty was labouring under accusation, she was not placed in a situation that commanded all the facilities necessary for her defence. She was not treated in that way which her dignity, her station in the country, and the circumstances under which she was called on to defend herself, ought to have secured. It was most ungenerous and most unjust to seize on the present moment, in order to deprive her of any provision which she might have formerly enjoyed. He could not point out to the House what precise course they ought to pursue; but he was sure they would not make themselves a party to the negative insult that had been offered to her majesty by the noble lord and his colleagues, by any contribution of the public money for the use of different branches of the royal family, all mention of the queen being omitted; still less did he believe that the public would tolerate the noble lord and his colleagues in retaining her majesty as a pensioner on their bounty, merely, as he understood, because it suited his majesty's ministers not to stir this important subject. He wished to avoid touching on any point connected with the existing investigation, which had nothing to do with an adequate provision for her majesty. The proper mode of proceeding would perhaps be, to
148
move, in some period of the evening, that the chairman should leave the chair, report progress, and ask leave to sit again, for the purpose of giving his majesty's ministers time to repair the affront they had given to- the House of Commons, and to the dignity of the royal family. If he had said any thing harsh or severe, he could assure the House he did not intend it; but he felt that a great neglect had been shown towards her majesty, in not making for her that provision to which she was entitled—a proceeding which, he must observe, placed her majesty in such a situation as no member of the royal family ever was, or ever ought to be, placed in—a situation which no member of that House ought even for a moment to suffer He expected from the noble lord a plain answer on this subject; but unless he received such an answer, he would move-that the chairman do leave the chair, for the purpose of giving ministers an opportunity of considering the impropriety of their conduct, and also to enable the House to decide how far they would abet and sanction that impropriety.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he was sure that the surprise of the House would have been much greater than that expressed by the noble lord, if ministers had comedown and proposed a settlement for her majesty, considering the situation in which she at present stood. The noble lord had made three distinct charges against ministers—1st, they were charged with not providing funds sufficient to enable her majesty to enter on her defence; next, with having committed a breach of the law, in granting sums of money not sanctioned by parliament; and, lastly, with having neglected to make a proposition to parliament relative to a provision for her majesty, it having been notified that such a proposition would be submitted to the House. Now, with respect to any practical inconvenience connected with the first point, he could assure the House that every means had been taken to obviate it. Every care had been taken to prevent any personal inconvenience which might be likely to affect her majesty. Provision had been made to meet any particular expense which the queen might incur in consequence of the pending inquiry. That was a point which he could assure the noble lord had neither escaped the king, nor been lost sight of by his ministers. It had been specifically notified to her majesty that every means would be afforded to her

149
for the defence of her character and conduct. Me therefore hoped that the House would not catch from the noble lord the insinuation, for he had not made it a matter of direct charge, that there was any desire on the part of his majesty's ministers to expose the queen to any inconvenience, or to abridge her comforts in any way whatsoever. With respect to the mode in which the allowance was granted to her majesty, the jealous feelings of the noble lord would be quieted if he took the trouble of reading the resolution which passed that House in the month of April last, which went to continue for a limited time certain grants that had been previously made, and which were chargeable on the consolidated fund. Of these grants, the sum annually paid to the queen was one. It would be quite time enough for the noble lord's constitutional jealousy to take the alarm, if, after the 5th of July, he discovered that any advance of this nature had been made by ministers. At present, ministers had shown as little inclination to interfere with the functions of parliament as to neglect the duties of humanity. As to what the noble lord said relative to what he had observed on a former occasion, he was ready to avow that at the time alluded to he contemplated, as the most proper moment for making a settlement on her majesty, the period when the grants to the other branches of the royal family were brought under the consideration of the House. He had studiously stated this point, because there was nothing at that period to prevent their proceeding on the same principles by which their vote would be guided with respect to the other branches of the royal family. This feeling he had entertained while any hope existed that her majesty would remain on the continent, and thus save the House the painful task of investigating her conduct. What had since occurred had materially altered the situation of affairs; and for his own part, he did not think that the queen had authorized the noble lord to introduce this subject, after the papers that had been laid on the table of the House Her majesty in one of those papers had plainly declared, that she would not have any thing to do with the pecuniary arrangement until the circumstances affecting her honour and character were disposed of. Besides, the noble lord ought to know that the House could not entertain a question of that description,
150
viz., the making a settlement on the queen, without a message from the Crown. It was not for them to become initiative on a measure of this kind; and he would tell the noble lord, that in bringing it forward he was travelling out of his function as a member of parliament. It was not, he believed, very usual for the representatives of the people to be clamouring for the disposal of the public money. Neither did he think it was proper to enter into an inquiry as to the way in which the queen was to be provided for, until they saw the end of the pending investigation. He was the more astonished at the course adopted by the noble lord, because it was entirely contrary to the feeling of the noble lord's right hon. friend (Mr. Tierney). That right hon. gentleman had stated, that he would not vote a shilling of the public money to the queen, till the charges made against her were entirely cleared up. He had farther observed, that if even a rumour continued unexplained, he would not agree to any supply that might be proposed for her use So determined was that right hon. gentleman, that he would not even suffer rumours to pass by unnoticed. But the noble lord, rather unadvisedly he thought, was anxious, in the very midst of these delicate proceedings, that her majesty should be specially provided for. Under all the difficulties of this painful state of things it would be found that the Crown had taken the best care to relieve her majesty from any embarrassment in entering on her defence; and with respect to making a permanent provision for her, it would perhaps be as well to reserve that subject until the moment when the country understood how her conduct was regarded by parliament.
Lord A. Hamiltonobserved, that the noble lord had treated him with much unfairness, and the House with still more. In the first place, every gentleman would do him the justice to acknowledge his having stated in the outset, that if the noble lord meant, in the present session, to move for an allowance to her majesty, he would say nothing more on the subject. The noble lord, however, had told them that her majesty had been provided for until the 5th of July. He would now ask the noble lord how her majesty was to be provided for after that period? and in answer to the triumph of the noble lord, he would observe, that, had he postponed the statement which he had that night

151
submitted to the House until the clay after to-morrow, the noble lord would not have had the opportunity of repelling it as he had done. The course the noble lord had taken was another proof of the extreme unfairness that pervaded the whole of his conduct on this occasion. He would demand whether any perversion of reasoning could he greater than to argue that because her majesty thought proper (most honourably as he conceived) to exclude all pecuniary considerations from the negotiation between her law-advisers and ministers, therefore the noble lord's humanity and that of his colleagues should lead them rather to continue her a pensioner on their bounty than a plain and direct applicant to that House. He could not imagine any thing more unfair in argument than that. He did not wish to follow this subject farther; but his opinion was, that the line of conduct pursued by the noble lord was neither suited to the dignity of the royal family nor creditable to the character of parliament. The noble lord ought to know that, by the law of this country, every individual against whom charges were made was, pending trial, deemed to be innocent.
Mr. Tierneysaid, it was perfectly true, that he did state that he would not agree to any permanent vote for her majesty, until the charges alleged against her were cleared up. When her majesty's name was omitted in the Liturgy, he had declared that if her conduct was such as to justify that measure, he would vote against any grant that should be proposed. He was a little surprised, however, at the course the noble lord was now pursuing, because, if he understood him correctly, he had stated that he would, whenever the provision for the royal family was brought before the House, take some notice of her majesty's situation. It appeared to him that her majesty was treated in the most extraordinary way, no provision of any kind having been made for her. The noble lord had stated very truly, that no member of that House could bring such a question forward of his own motion, but that it must be done by a message from the Crown. He knew that there must be a message on the subject; but he supposed no intention existed to make the necessary provision for her majesty [Lord Castlereagh here intimated across the table that such an intention did exist]. He was very happy to find that a proper sum of money would be allowed
152
to her majesty, as he understood, for the ensuing quarter, and he was also glad to learn from the noble lord, that a sufficient provision would be made for her majesty, to enable her to conduct her defence. This had not been the customary mode of proceeding. It was usual for parliament to defray the amount of the charges after they had been incurred. So long, however, as the queen was provided with the means of entering on her defence, he cared not whether they were granted before or after that defence was made. It ought to be recollected, however, that the queen had been allowed 35,000 l. a year as Princess of Wales, she having at the time a royal palace to live in. Was it not, then, a fair matter of consideration whether the same sum would now be sufficient, her majesty having to provide herself with a House? He had little more to observe with reference to these votes, because the whole of them would be brought before the House in a more formal shape on Wednesday. It was true that the duke of Clarence was in a worse situation than any of his royal brothers. On his marriage 10,000 l. had been proposed for him, but only a sum of 6,000 l. was voted, which, he knew not by whose advice, he had declined accepting. From his independent conduct on that occasion, and his having thrown himself openly on the feelings of the people, he appeared to him to be worthy of the additional vote that was about to be proposed.
Lord Castlereaghobserved, that provision would not only be made for the usual support of her majesty, but that a sum would also be granted to meet any expenses that might arise during the pending investigation. Her majesty was provided for by the vote of that House up to the 5th of July, and it would be time enough for the noble lord to complain when he found ministers disbursing the public money without any legal authority.
Mr. Denmanwished to observe, that this question was brought before the committee, without her majesty's knowledge. She had given no directions whatsoever on the subject; she had no possible doubt that all necessary means for defending her rights and asserting her character would be afforded her from some quarter or other. It was, however, fit that the House should understand that the expenses would necessarily be very considerable. There was, however, another object much nearer to

153
her heart than that of expense; it was the dread lest the interference of foreign powers should prevent her from having the benefit of those witnesses who were necessary to her exculpation. She feared that certain foreign powers, particularly Austria, which had been exceedingly active in her persecution, would deprive her of those individuals without whom her justification would be incomplete. When she was, at last, accused before a public tribunal, whatever the decision of that tribunal might be, she called for a fair opportunity to sustain her character, and with that view she demanded that all difficulties and obstacles should be removed.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that on the part of the Crown every thing would be done to facilitate her majesty's proceedings; and, with respect to the foreign powers, they would, he conceived, feel it to be a point of character to give her every assistance in their power.
The several resolutions were agreed to.

PERSONAL PROPERTY OF THE LATE KING.
Sir J. Newportwished to ask the chancellor of the exchequer, whether his late majesty had left a will, or, if he had died intestate, in what manner his personal property had been disposed of?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he was not prepared to answer the question.
Mr. Tierneyrepeated the question, and asked, in case of the non-existence of such a document, what had become of that property?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that he did not know, and it was not his duty to know whether such a paper existed.
Mr. Humesaid, that when he put a similar question to the chancellor of the exchequer upon a former occasion, the right hon. gentleman was certainly understood to have stated distinctly that a will did exist. If his late majesty had died intestate, it was proper that the House should know what had become of the money vested by acts of parliament under commissions, before they proceeded to grant sums of money to any part of the royal family. He trusted that some honourable member would take an early opportunity of making a motion upon the subject.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerob-
154
served, that if there was no will the personal property, he apprehended, devolved to the successor to the throne.
Mr. Tierneythought it very important to ascertain whether his majesty had died intestate, or if any paper amounting to a will had been found, what measures had been taken with respect to the disposition of the personal property of his late majesty.
Mr. Bernalwished to know from whom he was to receive official information upon this subject, if not from the chancellor of the exchequer.
Mr. Humecontended, that if his late majesty had died intestate, his property was no longer private but public; and if public, it was the duty of the House to ascertain, especially in the 'present distressed state of the country, in what manner it had been disposed of.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerassured the hon. gentleman, that no part of the personal property of the his late majesty had come under the cognizance of that part of the government connected with the Treasury.
Mr. J. P. Grantsaid, that as part of the property, which was primâ facie to be considered as the property of the Crown, had been put up to sale, the House ought to be informed whether any inquiry had been made to ascertain whether it belonged to the Crown or not.
Mr. Humewished to ask the chancellor of the exchequer whether he would have any objection to state, upon a motion being made, what steps had been taken by ministers to ascertain whether his late majesty had left a will, and what part of his personal property was likely to accrue to the public.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer was silent.
Mr. Baringthought that if this subject appeared to be involved in any mystery or intrigue, a strong sensation would be excited in the country. If the exaggerated estimates had gone abroad as to the amount of the property left by his late majesty; that circumstance was itself calculated to excite the public attention, which would probably be increased after the conversation which had taken place upon the subject. If the right hon. gentleman did not wish to give any distinct information, he might at least state some reason which rendered it inconvenient to be more explicit.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerre-

155
peated, that no part of his late majesty's property had come under the cognizance of the Treasury, the disposition of it belonged more properly to the authority of another court.
Mr. Bernalobserved, that information was extracted from the right hon. gentleman, like a bad cork from a bottle of brandy.
After some further conversation, Mr. Hume gave notice that he would make a motion respecting the personal property of the late king to-morrow.

KING'S BENCH PROCEEDINGS BILL.
The House having gone into a committee on this bill,
Mr. Chetwyndsaid, it was his intention to propose three additional clauses to this bill. The first of them was, to enable judges to pass sentence upon defendants at Nisi Prius, instead of bringing them up to the court of King's Bench.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, that an objection in limine existed against the clause proposed by the hon. member. When defendants were brought up to the court of King's Bench, they had a right to move for a new trial, for a writ of error, or in arrest of judgment. The effect of the clause would be to deprive them of these advantages. Whatever opinion the House might entertain of the expediency of such an alteration if introduced to them as a specific measure, there could be no question as to the impropriety of entertaining it in the crude shape in which the hon. gentleman had brought it forward.
Mr. Chetwyndobserved, that in offences against the revenue not a single instance of a new trial had occurred in the last year.
Mr. G. Bankesthought that the clause proposed would be more properly made the subject of a specific measure.
The Attorney Generalwas of opinion, that in the cases which had been pointed at, it might be very important to the parties to possess the right of moving for a new trial. He therefore could not consent to adopt the clause. He explained and justified the increased amount of law charges for the last year, and proceeded to show that the statement recently made by the late member for Colchester receiving briefs and counsel being paid for all prosecutions throughout the country whether they attended them or not was erroneous.
The clause was rejected, and as Mr.
156
Chetwynd did not press his other clauses, the House resumed.

THE CORONATION.
On the order of the day for going into a committee of supply,
Mr. Creeveyrose to make a few observations upon a subject which the right hon. gentleman was going to introduce to their notice—he meant the expense of the ensuing Coronation. As yet there had not been placed upon their table any estimate of the sums of money which would be required for such a ceremony; and till such an estimate was presented to them, he for one, would not grant a single farthing for it. Indeed, it was his opinion, that, under the present circumstances of the country, no coronation ought to take place: for let honorable members consider—and if they did not consider, the public would consider for them—the situation to which that House was at present reduced. A green bag had been submitted as well to its notice as to the notice of the other House of Parliament. The other House had proceeded so far in the investigation of the contents of that bag as to render it extremely probable that a bill would be immediately introduced to expose her majesty the queen to the utmost disgrace and infamy. The House of Commons had, however, refused to enter with similar speed into a similar investigation; and yet, notwithstanding that circumstance, ministers, who knew well that that bag was lying on their table unopened, and that proceedings might arise from the opening of it which could only be terminated in another place—ministers had dared to come down, and to ask for a large grant of money to be expended in a grand gala, a great national jubilee, whilst the queen of the country was labouring under the most heavy and grievous accusations. If the laws of the land had prescribed any particular period, after the demise of one monarch and the accession of another, within which this ceremony of coronation was necessarily to take place, then, however painful the circumstances attending it might be, he should have said, let it take place within that period. But no such limitation existed, and therefore, under existing circumstances, it was most improper that it should be held at the time which was now fixed for it. Indeed, his majesty would be most imprudently advised if he did not postpone it until the conclusion of this investigation If there

157
was any one country in the world more distinguished than another for honourable and chivalric feeling towards women, it was our own; and he would say, that he had never seen in it any individual who would wish to obtain gratification to himself by inflicting pain even upon the most degraded of the other sex. If, then, such were the state of feeling amongst us, with what disgust would the nation view its king mixing in all the revelry of a grand gala and jubilee—given too, not at his own but at the public expense—at the very time that its queen was made the subject of a grave and heinous accusation? It was said, that in the course of this inquiry there could be no recrimination; but even allowing that to be the case, which he did not believe, still it ought to be recollected that, so far as public feeling was concerned, the king was as much upon his trial as his illustrious consort. He thought that, as the House had decided that the inquiry now proposed would be both derogatory from the dignity of the Crown and injurious to the best interests of the empire, that inquiry ought not to be instituted; but if it were, it appeared to him that the coronation, costing the money which it would cost, and irritating the feelings of the country as it would irritate them, ought to be postponed until that inquiry was finally terminated.
Lord Castlereaghobserved, that he did not know upon what grounds the hon. member had come forward with so much zeal to attack the coronation, if it were not on the ground of the expense by which it would be attended; and upon that point he was happy to inform him that it would be much less than had been originally expected. With regard to the argument which the hon. member had built upon the unfortunate differences now existing between their majesties, he felt himself compelled to to say, that his majesty's rights were not to be impaired either by the absence or the presence of the queen on this occasion; for the coronation was not a grand gala, or national jubilee, as the hon. member had represented it, but a ceremony whereby the king ratified the compact which existed between himself and his people; and therefore was a ceremony which ought not to be delayed. His majesty's ministers deserved no blame on account of the period at which the coronation was to take place, as it had been fixed at the usual period after the death of the pre-
158
ceding sovereign, and had been announced long before it was known that her majesty would return to England. If it occasioned pain to her majesty, ministers could not but regret that circumstance; but still it ought to be recollected, that her majesty's presence was not occasioned by them, and therefore, if it did cause her pain, they were not the authors of it. As, then, a day had been fixed for the coronation, as that coronation was the time when the king entered into a covenant with the nation to observe its laws and protect its interests, and as no public ground had been shown for deferring it, be did not feel it to be his duty to interfere in arresting it. Before he sat down he would take the opportunity of assuring the House, that 105,000 l. would be the utmost expense which this coronation would cost to the country.
Dr. Lushingtonapprehended that at present there were circumstances of so pecular a nature, both with respect to the situation of the queen-consort, and the State of the public finances, that ministers themselves must believe they would best discharge their duty by advising that this ceremony should be delayed. There was, in fact, no necessity for a coronation at all, and he believed it would be found, on referring to the history of this country, that many kings had reigned for a considerable time without having gone through that ceremony. If then, there was no necessity for his majesty's being crowned, it became a question whether or not, at the present moment, it was expedient. His hon. friend had stated, that while the trial of her majesty was going on, it was improper that there should be a public solemnity in which she could take no part. In this opinion he entirely concurred; and he also agreed with his hon. friend in thinking that it would be imprudent to rouse and provoke the feelings of the people of this country, at a time when they would be in a high state of excitation. He would appeal to the noble lord himself whether it was not impolitic to offer this additional excitement to public feeling at a time when the noble lord must know, from the addresses that were presented to her majesty, what the opinion of the people was respecting the treatment which she had received; and when he must also know, if he at all looked forward to futurity, that these feelings would hereafter become stronger than they were at present. But there was still another objec-

159
tion which had more weight with him than either of those to which he had adverted—he meant the universal distress which at present pervaded the country. That distress was so real and so great, that he would not consent to vote away a single shilling of the public money for any purpose that was not absolutely and indispensably necessary. Let hon. gentlemen look at their table covered with petitions from the agriculturists; let them reflect on the present state of all the great manufacturing towns in the kingdom—Glasgow in ruins, Leeds in distress, and Birmingham scarcely able to support herself; let them also look at the situation of the sister kingdom, to relieve whose commercial distresses they had a few nights ago voted a grant of 500,000 l.; and with this picture before their eyes, was the noble lord to tell them that 105,000 l. was a small sum? It was not a small sum; it was a large amount, when the means of the country and the distresses of the people were taken into consideration. What would be the effect of a coronation at the present moment on the public feeling? They would have in the news-papers columns upon columns filled with accounts of this pompous ceremony, with gorgeous descriptions of the coronation robes, and of all the splendid trappings and costly equipage displayed on the occasion; and when the starving individuals in Glasgow, Leeds, and Birmingham, should read these accounts, and learn that 105,000 l. had thus been spent in one day, while at that very moment there were hundreds of thousands of individuals in those towns without any means of subsistence—what effect, under those circumstances, could such an account have but to excite disgust and discontent? Let the House compare the misery and sufferings of these people with the pomp and pageantry of the proposed coronation, and then they would see if ministers were not exerting themselves to aggravate the distress of the country. They not only neglected the public distress, but were also wanting in attention to constitutional forms. They were erecting additional barracks at the present moment at Glasgow, at Manchester, and even in the metropolis: and for what purpose? Why, to keep down the dissatisfaction of the country. Thus, while they were taking measures on one hand to suppress discontent, they were on the other doing all in their power to excite it. If this measure were persisted in, he, for one,
160
should say, that to whatever extremities the people might go, whatever outrages they might commit [Hear! from ministers]; he was not afraid to avow the sentiment; and lest the hon. gentleman should think that he might disavow it at some future period, he would now repeat, he believed in his conscience that whatever excesses the people might commit they had been driven to them by ministers, by their arrogant and oppressive conduct, and their contempt of public feeling. Did the hon. gentlemen opposite suppose that the spirit of the country was to be fettered and manacled by those volunteers that were now raising, or that it was to be kept down by the barracks that were rising up in every direction? This effect might indeed be produced for a short time—but only for a short time; for there was still spirit enough in the country to lay in the dust all the machinations of the hon. gentleman and his colleagues. He had thought it his duty to state these sentiments. On looking at the events which had occurred for some time past, and at the measures which had been adopted in consequence of those events he firmly believed that no bills could effectually put down disaffection, because he was convinced that disaffection never existed generally amongst a people, except it were the consequence of misgovernment on the part of their rulers.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexpressed his surprise at the observations of the hon. and learned gentleman, as he had allowed the subject to sleep so long unnoticed. The hon and learned gentleman knew of it long ago from the king's proclamation. He had, however, chosen to wait until a considerable expence had been incurred, and when the question was, not so much whether the public money should be paid, but whether the tradesmen who had been employed should be honourably paid? He wished the hon. and learned gentleman to consider, whether or not when the complaint from many parts of the country was of a want of employment, the occurrence of such a great public solemnity as that in contemplation was peculiarly desirable, giving work as it must to many branches of the unoccupied? The hon. and learned gentleman must know that the sum voted from the public purse would form but a small part of the money that would be expended on the occasion. He must know that the expence to which the higher classes of so-

161
ciety would be put in consequence of the approaching solemnity, would very much exceed the amount to be taken from the public purse. He must know that the whole of this expenditure would go to enliven industry and employ the manufacturers, who were in want of such a stimulus. The hon. and learned gentleman must know that the peculiar grievance in the country was the want of animation which trade experienced. Above all times, therefore, the present was the time in which an ancient custom, which would contribute to produce that animation, ought not to be relinquished. As the hon. and learned gentleman asserted that there was a want of fidelity to the constitution on the part of the people, could there be a better occasion on which that disaffection might be diminished than one in which the monarch on the one hand promised protection, while the people on the other pledged themselves to pay the tribute of their allegiance? Was the present a time to depart from an ancient usage of that nature? Was it a time to abandon those forms which our ancestors had established, and which had so long been maintained? Was it not rather a time at which, with all due attention to economy, the most venerable and splendid ceremony of our constitution ought to be properly observed? The hon. and learned gentleman had gone rather to extremities in his speech. He had, by anticipation, apologised for any outrages to which he thought the people would be prompted by the extravagance of ministers [Dr. Lushington expressed his dissent across the table]. He hoped then that he had misunderstood the hon. and learned gentleman, and he was persuaded it would give the House satisfaction, if the hon. and learned gentleman could explain the expressions to which he alluded. What he had understood the hon. and learned gentleman to deelare was, that the extravagance of ministers was a just ground for expecting that the people would proceed to extremities and outrage.
Dr. Lushingtonsaid, that what he had stated was, that the distress of the country was occasioned by the extravagance of ministers.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercontinued. He would say no more on that point. With respect to the coronation of his majesty, he begged to observe that the period when that ceremony should take place, was fixed long before the arrival of the queen. The period having
162
been so fixed, it did not become necessary to alter it in consequence of any difference which existed in the royal family, and there having been no previous objection started to the coronation of his majesty, the House ought to provide for the expenses attendant on it.
Colonel Davieswas of opinion, that the period fixed for his majesty's coronation was a most inconvenient one. Irritated as the public mind now was, it might be productive not only of disorder and riot, but of bloodshed. Why, then, should his majesty's advisers propose such a proceeding at this moment? It was not indispensably necessary that his majesty should be crowned immediately. His late majesty was not crowned until 13 months after his accession. He thought, therefore, that as there was no other mode of repressing tumult on this occasion than by calling out an extraordinary number of the military, the danger likely to arise had better be avoided by postponing the coronation for the present.
Mr. T. Wilsonsaid, it was not his intention to prejudge the guilt or innocence of her majesty, but he thought it would be derogatory from the dignity of the crown to refuse the sum proposed to defray the expenses of his majesty's coronation. It was rather odd that those gentlemen who had now objected to this ceremony, had not, on any former occasion, signified their disapprobation of its taking place at the time proposed. Any objection on that head ought to have been made at an earlier period.
Mr. Bennetsaid, the hon. gentleman had accused his side of the House for not having taken an earlier opportunity of opposing the coronation at the period proposed. But who was it that proposed that coronation—who was it that directed the erection of the works for it? It was his majesty's ministers, not the opposition, as neither he nor his friends had any opportunity of speaking on the subject until it came fairly before the House. He could not help feeling, that nothing was more likely to excite public indignation, than to find, that while one House was agitating a bill of pains and penalties against her majesty, the other was employed in voting a sum of money to be expended in the pageantry and show of the coronation of the king. Historians had remarked, that in the reign of Henry 8th, the public mind had been much agitated, while proceedings were pending against the queen

163
of that monarch, at observing the festivities and pageantry of that court. He thought it not unlikely that a similar feeling would be entertained now, if it was found, that while the ceremony of the coronation was going on in Westminster Abbey, a bill of pains and penalties was pending against the queen.
Mr. Robinsonsaid, he rose principally to make a few observations, which were drawn from him by the extraordinary and unmeaning rant of the hon. and learned doctor, who had worked himself into a most violent passion, and had belaboured his majesty's ministers most unmercifully; but if there was any foundation for that harangue, the hon. and learned doctor had been lamentably remiss in his duty in not calling them to account long ago. He ought to have objected to the first step taken in preparing for the coronation; he had not however done so, and therefore the learned doctor was wrong in now objecting to the expenses necessary to carry that object into effect. It was objected that so large a sum should be expended in the mere pageantry of a coronation, and that too while a bill of pains and penalties was pending against her majesty. He denied that the coronation was a pageantry. Let the hon. member look to the preamble to the act of king William, and he would find that the coronation was any thing but a parade. The king was bound to take certain oaths, and it would be a fault in ministers to delay his majesty's doing so. The hon. member then read the oath which his majesty was bound to take, "that he was bound to govern the country according to the statutes; that he should administer justice in mercy; that he would maintain the religion of the country as by law established, &c." Would the House, after this, say that the coronation was a matter of choice? He maintained it was matter of law, and could not be dispensed with [Hear, hear!]. This being the case, bow could ministers have justified themselves in advising the postponement of so important a measure? Next came the objection in point of time. He remembered, that six months since, a great objection was, that it was to take place in the dog-days: however this might be, he was sure that Christmas would be found a much more inconvenient period. The public curiosity would naturally be excited on the occasion, and ministers would undergo no small portion of blame, if a period was fixed when the ceremony of
164
the coronation could not be witnessed at all.
Mr. W. Smithwould ask the right hon. gentleman, if he really believed that the king, after he had taken the coronation oath would be more or less bound to reign according to law than he was after he had taken the oath before the privy council? Could it be said that he was at any future period to be absolved from any of his regal functions because he had not taken a coronation oath? As to those splendid ceremonies, of which the chancellor of the exchequer had spoken as calculated to support the dignity of the Crown, he conceived that they were—"more honoured in the breach than in the observance." He appealed to every hon. gentleman, whether it was not his opinion that the feelings of the country were more in favour of economy than of the most splendid public exhibition. He had hitherto purposely abstained from saying any thing on the question of the queen; and if he were now to speak his sentiments, he apprehended they would not please either side of the House. He thought that the propriety or impropriety of having a coronation while proceedings were going on against her majesty, was merely a matter of feeling; but it was a matter that came home to the mind and bosom of every person.
Mr. Baringconcurred with his hon. friends as to the unfitness of the period chosen for the coronation; but with regard to the expense, he could not think that there would be any man in the country whose feelings would be shocked by it. The estimate was certainly far less than he had anticipated. Although it was undoubtedly of extreme importance that the king should be crowned soon after his accession, yet he could not see that a delay of 6, of 12, or of 18 months even, was material. He thought, also, that the ceremony should be performed with great solemnity; but he repeated that he could not see the necessity of being particular as to the precise period of the event. Pending the present proceedings with regard to her majesty, however, the celebration of that solemnity was likely to be not only unpleasant to the feelings of the people, but to have a very injurious effect upon the minds of many. If her majesty were declared innocent, every person would say, notwithstanding that it might be the right of the Crown to determine whether or no she should be
| |

165
crowned, that it was a great hardship to exclude her from a participation in the ceremony of the coronation. But his principal object in rising was, to suggest that upon the coronation of a new king, some alteration should be adopted in the oaths which were to be taken by him. The whole of the family and race of the Pretender having now ceased, he thought his majesty's ministers should devise some alteration in the oaths.
Sir M. W. Ridleyhoped, that should the coronation take place, a due regard would be paid to the encouragement of British manufacture. The article of velvet particularly ought to be encouraged on this occasion. It was true that English velvet could not compete with that of Genoa, yet it was equally handsome in appearance. This might appear a trifling consideration, but he hoped it would not be forgotten by his majesty's advisers.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that as to the vote to be proposed, he was not aware that he should have any thing to object on that account. He was no enemy, on some occasions, to pageants, and, least of all, to such a pageant as the one in question. But he regretted that it was determined that the coronation should take place upon the 1st of August. He sincerely lamented that his majesty should have been advised to come to such a resolution. After the steps, however, which had been taken, after the official letters that had been addressed to all parties concerned, it was hardly, perhaps, to be expected, that his majesty should stop short in the transaction. He did not, at the same time, think that there were ten gentlemen in the House who would not thank him, if he could devise any means by which the celebration of the coronation could be farther deferred. Now, after the arrival of her majesty in this country, he did own that he had hoped the propriety and necessity of such a postponement would have been felt and acted upon. He should be liable to a great deal of misunderstanding, if he were to state all that he apprehended as likely to result from the coronation so speedily taking place. The general opinion was that her majesty had been oppressed. He did not here mean to say a word as to the opinion of her innocence or guilt; yet it could not be contended for a moment but that this opinion of her being oppressed was the general feeling; and the one which pervaded not only the lower classes, but the higher ranks of so-
166
ciety also. He would ask any man whether this was a moment to be selected for a coronation, when her majesty was residing in a miserable house in Portman-street? The right hon. gentleman had referred to an act of parliament; and that undoubtedly was a very important one. if it had directed that the oaths should be taken within a few weeks, it might have been a conclusive authority; but the fact was, that they had always been postponed where particular circumstances required. For instance, his late majesty's coronation was deferred in this way, upon the ground that he was about to espouse the late queen, upon which account it was thought better that the two coronations should be performed at once. So in the present case, if all the grounds of suspicion should be done away with, he was prepared to contend, that her majesty should be crowned. If his majesty's coronation should be deferred till that were the case, she would be entitled to participate in that exalted honour. The noble lord could not deny that in consequence of the proposed coronation a larger military force than usual was to be introduced into the metropolis. Now, under these circumstances, he thought that more cruel, more unfriendly, or more unkind advice could not have been given to the Crown, than to proceed with this important measure; and he agreed that ministers were to be held responsible for all the acts which might follow. He pressed upon the attention of the House the mischievous consequences which might result from the occurrence of the coronation on the 1st of August, while the minds of men were so entirely occupied by the question of the exclusion, just or unjust, of her majesty from the full enjoyment of her right. He thought that its postponement could he productive of no bad effect; whereas its celebration upon that day might be productive of consequences which could not be foreseen.
Mr. Ricardothought that if the various articles likely to be consumed at the coronation could be bought cheaper in the foreign than the home market, there could be no objection to their not being home manufacture, seeing that they must be purchased by the produce of our own industry.
The House then went into the committee, in which it was resolved, "That 100,000 l. be granted on account of the expenses of his majesty's coronation,

IRISH COURT OF CHANCERY BILL.
The report of this bill being brought up, Colonel Barry said, that in order to show there was a second opinion in the House with respect to the case of Mr. Ellis, who was, he believed, ere now, elected for Dublin, he thought it proper to move n additional clause, viz. "That nothing in the act shall extend to prevent any person from sitting or voting in the House of Commons who shall have been elected to serve therein previous to the passing of the act." The question being put, that the clause be brought up, the House divided—Ayes, 42; Noes, 65: Majority against the clause, 23. The report was then agreed to.

FOREIGN TRADE.
The Marquis of Lansdownebrought up the report of the committee on Foreign Trade. In moving that it be laid on the table, he trusted their lordships would excuse him if he detained them some moments by a few observations which he thought the more necessary to be now made, as he did not mean to make this report the subject of any other motion except that it be printed. He was induced to adopt this course, not only because any bill connected with the financial situation and revenues of the country would come with more advantage to the subject from the other House, but because he thought it better that any measure of this kind should originate with those who possessed the best means of giving it effect
140
and carrying it into execution. At the same time that he abstained from proposing any thing on this report, he should very ill discharge his duty, if he did not state, on the behalf of the other members of the committee, that they were all anxious that some measure should be founded on the inquiry which had taken place. That something should be done, their lordships could not but feel to be due to the interests of all classes of the community—to the manufacturing, as well as the commercial interests—to the interests of shipowners—to the interests of the colonists—and lastly, though not least important, to the interests of British consumers. All the interests connected with foreign commerce complained of embarrassment and difficulties, respecting the nature and extent of which their lordships would be satisfied when they took the trouble to examine the report. Some of the recommendations which the committee had thought fit to make were of a nature which he believed would give rise to little or no conflict of opinion. Such were the alterations and arrangements respecting duties which appeared necessary for giving consistency and effect to existing measures. There were, however, facts connected with the interests to which he had alluded, on which difference would occur. There were cases in which he felt it would be impossible at this time to effect any considerable alteration, however desirable, without giving rise certainly to difference of opinion, and probably to some dissatisfaction. But he could not doubt that their lordships would concur in adopting such measures as should appear to them calculated to promote the interests of the public at large. In whatever was proposed, full consideration was due to the interests which might be affected; and their lordships must concur in this—that the interests of those persons whose capital had been embarked in trade within these ten or twelve years ought not to be overlooked. While the committee had thought it right to lay down in their report those great principles which he conceived ought never to have been departed from, they were at the same time desirous that the means of returning to a right system should be rendered as easy and convenient as possible. To accomplish this purpose, in as far as it could be forwarded by the present inquiry, their lordships had thought lit to separate that part of the subject which had been referred to the committee

141
from every other. The report was now completed, and he hoped that no unnecessary delay would take place in coming to the settlement of those important questions which remained to be adjusted. A difficulty had been experienced in returning from a course which had been resorted to only for temporary purposes. But though measures which ought to be abandoned could not be immediately relinquished on the change from war to peace, nothing could be more unfounded than the opinion that no alteration could be made in consequence of the restoration of peace, He concluded by moving that the report do lie on the table, and afterwards moved that it be printed.
Lord Ellenboroughexpressed a hope that some legislative measure should, if possible, be brought in this session on some of the objects recommended in the report. It was impossible for any member of the committee, who attended in his place, not to feel the duty of urging this. There were two points to the introduction of a measure, to embrace which he thought no objection could be made. They related to an alteration of the mode of levying the duties on timber. The first was a recommendation to levy the duty on timber by the cubic contents of the foot; the second was, to make the duty on timber which had undergone any process of manufacture higher than on timber in the log. In reference to the adoption of those enlightened principles which were recommended by the committee, it was with great satisfaction he could state his conviction that in some important instances their introduction would be attended with no inconvenience. It had, for example, been ascertained by the committee, that British ships were navigated more cheaply than any other vessels in the world, No injury therefore could arise to the shipping interest from any alteration which it might be thought fit to make in favour of foreign trade. Those who had petitioned most earnestly for the continuance of the present system with respect to the duties on timber, would therefore, if not benefited, at least not be injured, by any alteration which the legislature might think fit to make on that subject.
The Report was ordered to be printed.