Sitting of 28 April 1820

THE MARQUIS OF HASTINGS'S ANSWER TO THE VOTE OF THANKS.
The Speaker informed the House that he had received a letter, dated Calcutta, October 6, 1819, from the marquis of Hastings, which, with the permission of the House, he would then read.
"Sir; "Calcutta, Oct. 6, 1819.
"I have to acknowledge the honour of your letter, conveying to me the high distinction of thanks from the House of Commons on the issue of the campaign in Central India.—So proud a reward is very gratefully received by me, although the terms confine the approbation to my military management. I would fain assure myself the honourable House could not but be satisfied that the endeavour to extinguish the Pindarries was imposed on this government by the most direct necessity; that the contest with the Mahrattas, though guarded against as a risk involved in the other undertaking, was altogether unsought by us, and that the events distinctly prove there could have been no previous plan for extending the honourable Company's territories in deviation from the expressed judgment of the legislature.—Sensible as I should still have been to the generosity of the House of Commons in discriminating and noticing favourably my professional exertions, I could secretly have cherished little pride in the honour, had I felt myself open to the imputation of having wilfully entailed war by indulging a perverse or illicit policy: but I most respectfully venture to rest upon the opinion of the honourable House as to my not having forgotten, in a case of exigency, the spirit of the rules prescribed to me, and what was due to the character of my country—I have notified to lieut. general sir Thomas Hislop, to the other general officers, and to the

39
troops employed in the campaign, the approbation which the House of Commons has been pleased to express of their services. The gratitude with which such a testimony of satisfaction from the honourable House will be received can be confidently asserted by me.—The obliging terms which you personally have had the goodness to add, in communicating the resolutions to me, are truly flattering to me; and I have the honour to remain, &c. HASTINGS."

BOROUGH OF GRAMPOUND.
Lord John Russellgave notice of a motion for leave to bring in a bill to disfranchise the borough or Grampound, and to transfer the elective franchise to the borough of Leeds. He also begged leave to say, that in the course of the session he intended to submit to the House a motion for shortening the duration of sir M. Lopez's imprisonment.
EDUCATION OF THE POOR.
Mr. Broughamgave notice, that, at an early period after the Whitsuntide holydays, he should submit a motion relative to the education of the poor. Although he was aware that it was irregular to enter in to any explanation on rising merely to give a notice, yet he trusted the House would allow him to observe, that the delay which had already occurred was owing to anything rather than to his being less sensible than formerly of the importance of education. On the contrary, the events which had lately occurred had rather strengthened his conviction of the indispensable necessity of imparting education to the poor. One cause of the delay which had taken place was, that the Education Digest, on which the measures which he should have to propose would be founded, could not be sooner prepared; and it was desirable that it should be in the hands of members before the question was brought under discussion. Another reason for his not fixing an earlier period was, that the discussion of the civil list, incident to the commencement of a reign, would occupy the attention of the House for a considerable time, and it, was desirable that the discussions on these two subjects should be kept separate. Longer, however, than till after the holydays, he could not consent to postpone the consideration of this important question.
CATHOLIC QUESTION.
Sir H. Par- nellrose to give notice, that on Thursday, the 11th of May, his right hon. friend, the member for Dublin (Mr. Grattan), would submit to the House a motion for the removal of the disabilities which the law at present imposed on his majesty's Roman Catholic subjects.
REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.
Mr. Lambtonrose to renew the notice which he had given in the last session of parliament of his intention to bring before the House the present state of the representation; and he now gave notice that he should submit a motion on that subject on Tuesday the 6th of June. As far as he could judge, that arrangement would not interfere with the other business of the House.
SCOTCH REPRESENTATION.
Lord A. Hamiltongave notice, that he meant to bring before the House the question of the Scotch representation; and, to keep clear of the time just fixed on by his hon. friend, he should bring forward his motion on the 24th of May. He also gave notice, that on Thursday next he should move for the revival of the committee on the Scotch burghs.

ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH AT THE OPENING OF THE SESSION.
Sir E. Knatchbullbrought up the report of the Address on the King's Speech. Upon the motion, that it be read a second time,
Lord A. Hamiltonsaid, that it was not his intention to trouble the House at any length, but he could not allow the present opportunity to pass without impressing on the minds of the right hon. gentlemen opposite the necessity of attending to the distress of that part of the country with which he was connected. When the House recollected that fourteen or fifteen weeks ago the commerce and manufactures of the country had been represented to be in a most flourishing condition, and when they compared that declaration with the statements in the Speech delivered yesterday from the throne, they must all be struck with the sudden change which had taken place in the aspect of the country; and he, for one, should not think that he discharged his duty conscientiously, if he did not on the present occasion suggest what he conceived might be applied in mitigation of the evil. They would all remember that a sum of 50,000 l. had been voted last

41
year for the purpose of promoting emigration to the Cape of Good Hope; and the object of that grant was, undoubtedly, that which the House and his majesty's ministers ought to have in view—the alleviation of distress. There were in that House many honourable members who were as well acquainted as he was with the present situation of the distressed part of Scotland, and particularly his hon. friend opposite (Mr. Finlay), whose connexion with Glasgow led him necessarily to know the state of that part of the country; and he was sure it must be their opinion, that if ministers meant to assist those who were disposed to emigrate, they ought to give that assistance immediately. Many persons in that country were in such an absolute state of destitution, that they looked on their existence as a burthen which they could scarcely support. They could neither maintain themselves nor their families; and the period was fast approaching, when without food and without raiment, they must either perish, or prolong their existence by the plunder of their neighbours. He could not, therefore, let this opportunity pass without urging on ministers the necessity of turning their attention to the deplorable state of things; and, if they seriously applied their minds to the subject, they would not only be conferring a benefit on the sufferers, but would be taking the most effectual means of suppressing that disturbance of which they complained. He must say, that, from the spirit and temper of ministers, they seemed to have greatly under-rated the distress which at present existed in the northern part of the kingdom. They had ascribed a larger portion of the disturbance to disaffection than to distress, and had applied force to quell disturbances which would have been more effectually suppressed by furnishing the means of subsistence. The right hon. gentlemen opposite were more willing to facilitate emigration to the Cape of Good Hope than to any other quarter of the world: and the reasons for this preference he could not perceive, especially as most of those who were inclined to emigrate from Scotland had powerful reasons to induce them to go to our settlements in America, rather than to Africa. He begged to call on his majesty's ministers to say what part of the money which had been voted last year for the promotion of emigration, had been applied to that purpose; how
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many persons had availed themselves of the offer of government; and what had been the result of the plan, as far as it had been adopted. He concluded by observing, that any delay in the application of a remedy to the evils which he had pointed out would not only be disastrous in itself, but would render more difficult the attainment of that ultimate object which ought to be kept in view—the suppression of the present disturbances in Scotland.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, in reply to the questions of the noble lord, that the expense already incurred considerably exceeded the 50,000 l. which had been voted by parliament for the encouragement of emigration, though all the charges had not yet been defrayed. As to the number of those who had availed themselves of this assistance, he had to inform the noble lord, that upwards of 5,000 persons had already gone to the Cape of Good Hope; and, when the last accounts were received from them, they had performed part of the voyage in good health, and had the prospect of terminating it prosperously. When the noble lord recommended North America as a preferable place for emigrants to resort to, he apprehended the noble lord was not aware of the representations which had been received from that quarter. In America the greatest distress at present prevailed, and the manufactures of that country were in as languishing a state as those of our own. To send the destitute to that quarter would be, therefore, only to shift the scene of distress, and to transport them to poverty on a foreign shore. The British provinces of America were also so overloaded with emigration, that the strongest remonstrances had been made on the subject by the government of Canada; It proved a great grievance both to the government and the people; and, under these circumstances, he thought it would be highly premature to adopt any plan for the promotion of emigration to that quarter. His majesty's ministers were not reluctant to assist those who were distressed at home in looking for a happier lot on any foreign shore; but such a measure should not be hastily or prematurely adopted. With regard to farther emigration to the Cape of Good Hope, government wished, in the first place, to learn the success of those who had already gone out, before they encouraged any farther emigration to that set-

43
tlement on a more extended scale. He hoped the House and the noble lord would do his majesty's ministers the justice to think that they did not feel any reluctance to assist the distressed part of the population in seeking that comfort on foreign shores which circumstances prevented them from enjoying at home, though they might not appear so forward as some expected in tendering that assistance.
Mr. Finlayagreed with what had been stated by his noble friend respecting the distressed state of the country; and when the right hon. gentleman stated that only 5,000 persons had gone to the Cape of Good Hope, the House would see that by the regulations adopted it had been impossible for the distressed population to relieve themselves. It was impossible for them to pay any sum of money, however small; and therefore, if the means of emigration were not granted unconditionally, and as a boon, he feared they could not avail themselves of the opportunity afforded. He believed his noble friend was in possession of many communications, as he himself was, from persons who, though perfectly willing to emigrate, could not transport themselves, being destitute of all means whatever. He was confident that the subject required only to be brought forward by government in such a practical manner as to engage attention, and that a sum of money, comparatively small, would be productive of great benefit, since those who were removed would not only be relieved themselves, but would relieve those to whom they were at present a burthen.
The Address was agreed to nem. con.

DROITS OF THE CROWN AND PRIVY PURSE.
Mr. Tierneysaid, he could not help observing, that the papers before the House seemed to be all very clear, with the exception of the sum of 385,000 l. The allowance to the privy purse, it was known, was 60,000 l. per annum; but, over and above that allowance, there appeared to have been, during the late reign, an excess of 385,000 l. He would thank the right hon. gentleman to explain this matter.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that it had been from time to time the practice of parliament, that certain monies, arising from particular colonial funds, should be added to the privy purse. But the right hon. gentleman would see,
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that this total of 385,000 l., as taken upon the long reign of his late majesty, was little more, upon an average, than 6,000 l. a-year.
Mr. Tierneyknew that the allowance of 60,000 l. for a privy-purse was vested in the Crown by parliament. But this case was entirely different; for, with respect to the privy-purse, it had been thought fit that the king should have a sum at his absolute disposal, for whatever purposes he thought proper; and no doubt this was extremely fitting. This sum had been limited to 60,000 l., and it was placed beyond the control of the House, and not subject to any other curb than his majesty's own discretion. But this excess was stated to have been added out of funds whose application should be matter of parliamentary direction, and for which ministers were responsible. He must again ask, how this addition was to be justified?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that such had been the immemorial usage.
Mr. Tierneywished to know, whether they were to understand that the funds of the Crown might be enlarged in this manner by his majesty's ministers? If not, how did it happen that this 6,000 l. a-year, or aggregate sum of 385,000 l., had been so added to a specific provision made by parliament for the privy purse? How did it happen that no account was rendered, by which it might appear that about 6,000 l. a-year was yearly carried to the increase of that purse in the way mentioned by the right hon. gentleman?
Mr. Humewas very anxious to know what the colonial funds in question were.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that it was impossible to give a specific account of such appropriations, occurring in the earlier years of so extended a reign, although it might be in his power to show in what manner they had been made during the latter part of it.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that the excess of 385,000 l., for any thing he saw upon the face of those papers, might have accrued in one year instead of sixty years.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that upon the subject of the civil list it might be matter of convenience to the House to understand when it would be brought forward. He deeply regretted that it was one which was not to remain in the hands of hon. gentlemen opposite. He did hope that those hon. gentlemen would have submitted the matter to the consideration of

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parliament; and from them he considered it would most properly and most effectually have come. It appeared, however, that the fact would prove otherwise; and therefore, in order to redeem the pledge he had given in 1812, and because others would not, he should himself bring it under their notice. If they would not come forward and move the House to take away this fund altogether, and vest it in parliament, as it ought to be vested, and as all other public funds of this nature were vested—if they would not support a proposition to give to the Crown a moderate compensation for it, he now begged to say, that he would bring the question befor them upon Thursday next; and as it was material that the motion should come forward before the other propositions, he could wish it to be understood that it should have precedence of the other business. The House were aware that they were about to discuss how much should be the allowance to be made to the Crown. Now, since he should have to propose that something should be taken away from what the Crown already had, non constat that that circumstance might not move them to increase, pro tanto, the rate of that allowance.

REVENUES OF THE CROWN.
The following account was laid on the table of the House by his Majesty's command.
An account of the total produce of all Funds at the disposal of the Crown, and usually deemed not to be under the immediate control of Parliament, since the accession of his late majesty; distinguishing the monies arising from droits of the admiralty, and droits of the Crown; 4£ per cent West-India duties; Scotch revenue; and from all other sources not hereinbefore specified; so far as the same can be ascertained.

An account of the droits of

£

s.

d.

the Admiralty and droits of the Crown, from 1760 to 1820

9,562,614

4

6½

The application of this sum in rewards to captors, and payments to claimants, and in aid of the public service, and of the civil list, and for other purposes, is to be found in the accounts which have from time to time been laid before Parliament.

An account of the four and half per cent West-India

duties, from 1760, to 1820.

2,116,484

0

0

This revenue is charged with the salaries of the governors and various, other public officers connected with the West Indies, and also with the payment of pensions granted by the Crown; as appears in the accounts laid from time to time before Parliament.

* An account of the surplus of Gibraltar, revenues, remitted to England from 1760 to 1820, after discharging garrison expenses

124,256

10

7

* An account of the surplus of Scotch Civil List, from 1760 to 1820, now appropriated as it may arise, under the act 50 Geo. 3rd, c. 3. in aid of the Civil List in England

207,700

0

0

* An account of the Escheats to his majesty in cases of illegitimacy or otherwise, from 1760 to

214,647

15

0

* An account of the Escheats to his majesty, being the property of Alien enemies, from 1760

108,777

17

8

* An account of the funds arising by sale of lands in the French West India islands, ceded at the peace

106,300

0

0

* An account of the revenues arising from the islands of Minorca, Martinique, St. Croix, and St. Thomas, and from the settlement of Surinam, while the same were in the possession of his majesty

150,816

0

7

* An account of the casual revenues arising from quit rents, &c. in the British colonies, and from all other sources not before enumerated, from 1760 to1820

104,865

3

2½

£12,705,461

11

7

*The whole of these sums have been appropriated at various times in discharge of the debts of the civil list, and to other public purposes, as will appear by the reports and accounts laid before parliament; with the exception of 385,000 l., which sum was applied between his majesty's accession and the year

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1820, in numerous payments, for the purposes of the privy purse, as directed by his majesty.
CHARLES ARBUTHNOT.
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers,
April, 28, 1820.