Sitting of 8 March 1819

CRIMINAL LAWS.
Mr. Sinclairsaid: —In presenting to the House a petition from Stockton, &c. which entreats us to take into our earliest consideration the state of the criminal code, I cannot but reflect, with unmingled satisfaction, that this prayer has already been complied with; and that the numerous petitions on this subject, which are preparing in every part of the kingdom, might, without impropriety, be converted into addresses of thanks and congratulation. I am convinced that the decision of a former night has been hailed with unanimous exultation throughout the country; and that the people have recognised the wisdom and ratified judgment of their representatives. They will rejoice that this momentous question, so closely inter-woven national morals, and consequently with our national happiness, has been referred to an enlightened committee, which will conduct its inquiries not only without prejudice and without preci-
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pitation, but without either incumbrance or delay. They will feel, that though the questions of prison discipline and the penal code are sufficiently connected to afford a pretext for crowding them together, they are also sufficiently distinct and disjoined to admit, with advantage, of a separate investigation. If we look, Sir, to the motives which led to this great and important decision, we must, in the first place, ascribe it to the previous verdict of a tribunal, to which even the omnipotence of parliament ought to bow; I mean the verdict of public opinion, which has loudly and unequivocally pronounced upon the penal code, as it stands in the statute book, a sentence of indignant condemnation. But we should indeed be ungrateful and inexcusable, if, in specifying the causes of our triumph, we were deficient in paying homage to the luminous, impressive, and dispassionate speech by which the motion of a former night was introduced. In alluding to that master-piece of eloquence and wisdom, I am confident that I express the universal feeling of the country, when I call upon, or rather beseech, the hon. and learned gentleman to delight and instruct the world, by presenting that speech to the public in a full and authenticated form; a speech which, by the force of its reasoning, must subdue the understandings of the prejudiced, and at the same time, by the magic of its eloquence, must come home to the hearts of the unconcerned. In speaking of the penal code, we have frequently been cautioned to make no appeal to the passions; but I ask, Sir, how is it possible to consider its present state and tendency, without being impressed with such feelings as I suppose I must not venture to define? What can we say of a code, which is, in theory, the most severe, and, in practice, the least efficient, that exists in any part of Europe? a code, which is only tolerable or even defensible on account of its imperfect execution. For although we are triumphantly reminded of the great disproportion which exists between the aggregate number of convictions and the relative proportion of executions, that very disparity which proves the mild administration of the law-demonstrates with equal self-evidence, the incredible harshness of its enactments—a harshness, which is not only unparalleled in degree, but totally impracticable in application. What shall we say of a code, which, if strictly, or even mode-

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rately, enforced during a single year, would deluge every part of the country with such an effusion of human blood as would appal the most unfeeling, and startle the most indifferent? A code, too, which turns the tide of popular feeling into the most pernicious channel in which it can possibly run; since it enlists the general sympathy on the side of the malefactor, and transfers the indignation of the people from the crime against which it ought to be directed, to the law by which that crime may be punished, with a severity which becomes equivalent to injustice. As long, Sir, as offences of most unequal enormity may be visited in the same day, on the same scaffold, by the same fate, so long will those wretched individuals who for minor and comparatively venial crimes are exposed to the utmost vengeance of the law, be considered (not merely by the multitude, but by every enlightened friend to humanity), rather as martyrs to its rigour, than as victims to its justice. I am sensible that I have already abused the patience of the House, but I wish to touch briefly upon a subject which I think was not very fully dwelt upon in the course of the late discussion; I allude to the impression produced upon the public mind by the frequent recurrence of executions. It has sometimes been maintained that they are necessary for the sake of warning and example; but I feel anxious to corroborate, from my own observation, the opinion of those gentlemen who think that the effects which they excite are diametrically the reverse. Sir, in consequence of arriving at an early hour from the country, I had occasion to pass by the Old Bailey, on the morning when certain unhappy malefactors expiated the crime of forgery by the forfeiture of their lives. I averted my eyes, with unaffected concern, from a sight so painful to humanity; but the spectacle which I was compelled to witness, during my slow and impeded progress through the crowd, was such as to shock me still more. If, Sir, I could depict to the House the various but equally revolting emotions which might be traced in the countenances of all who surrounded me; the impatient curiosity of some, the brutal apathy of others, the thoughtless levity, the indignant horror, and even the Savage satisfaction which the features of the different spectators exhibited; if I could describe the eager struggles which ensued in
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every quarter for a nearer approach to the scaffold, and the indecent alacrity with which many—nay, I blush to add, even females were hurrying, in every direction; to the place of execution—it would, I am persuaded, be the opinion, of all who hear me, that the frequent repetition of these awful solemnities only tends to familiarise men's minds to their recurrence. If any thing be learnt by those who habitually frequent them, it is to look forward with comparative unconcern to the pain or ignominy of such an exit, and, instead of taking warning from the fate of others, they gradually become callous to their own.
Ordered to lie on the table.

COAL DUTIES.
Mr. Edwardspresented a petition from Mr. Crawshay, of Merthyr, in Glamorganshire, against the imposition of any general tax on coal. He stated that the petitioner was the largest individual ironmaster in the empire, or perhaps in the world, and that from the quantity of capital he had invested on the faith of the existing laws, he was entitled to consideration from the House. The petition stated many of the reasons which showed the impolicy of the proposed measure, in which he (Mr. E.) concurred. From the variety in the quality, and consequently in the value of coal, in the facility of digging it, and the expense of carriage from the pits, no general tax on its production could by possibility be equal. He urged the House to oppose the proposition for a general inland tax on coal, as a measure unjust in principle, and as particularly ruinous in its effects in the present state of the manufacturing and agricultural interests of the kingdom.
Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.

PENRYN ELECTION.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhaving moved the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate upon the amendment proposed [26th February, See p. 712] to be made to the question, "That Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the cleric of the crown, to make out a new writ for the electing of a Burgess to serve in this pre sent Parliament for the Borough of Penryn in the room of Henry Swann, esq. whose election has been determined to be void;" which amendment was, to leave out from the word "do" to the end of the

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question, in order to add the words, "not issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown, to make out a new Writ for the electing of a Burgess to serve in this present parliament for the Borough of Penryn, until the House shall have proceeded to take the said Report into further consideration," instead thereof,
Sir Charles Burrellbegan by declaring, that he had no connexion whatever with the committee whose report suggested to him the propriety of the motion with which he meant to conclude, nor with Penryn itself, nor with any of the parties concerned in the recent election. But he felt it his duty as a member of parliament to submit the case to the judgment of the House, leaving it to its own discretion to determine, as to its sense of justice might seem meet, upon a full consideration of all the merits of the question. The minutes of evidence taken before the committee were in the hands of the members, and they presented such a view of the practices which prevailed in this borough, that he thought it impossible for the House, consistently, to abstain from some special proceeding upon the subject. The House was called upon to consider, not only the bribery and general corruption which the evidence disclosed as to the late election, and the inconsistencies in that evidence, but the understanding which prevailed as to the usually corrupt habits in this borough. In defence, indeed, of the rights of their fellow subjects, the House was bound to take this case into its serious consideration. He had taken an abstract of the evidence as it appeared in the minutes upon the table, in order to show the grounds upon which he proposed to proceed. The first witness called for the petitioner was Henry Carter, who deposed, that Mr. Swann said to him that he expected that the witness wanted money as well as the rest—that accordingly, Mr. Swann offered witness a five pound note, which was afterwards received by witness's wife, telling him that he should have five pounds more after the election, adding, that sir C. Hawkins would be answerable to pay the witness ten pounds more, if he (sir C. H.) were brought in, making on the whole twenty pounds. This witness further stated, that he voted for Mr. Swann, but not for sir C. Hawkins. It was but justice to state, that this witness prevaricated very much in the course of his cross-examination. The next witness examined was Thomas Rosman, who de-
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posed, that Mr. Swann promised him a situation if he would give him his vote, and that he received five one pound notes from his wife, which was given by Mr. Swann, as witness understood., Mr. S. told witness that he (Mr. S.) had given money to his wife. The vote of witness, which he tendered for Mr. Anderson, and sir C. Hawkins was rejected. Witness did not, however, return the money which his wife received from Mr. Swann, and he declined to state the reasons which induced him not to tender his vote for that gentleman. Edward Rosman the son-in-law of the last witness, deposed, that Mr. Swann threw a five pound note upon his mother's bed, between six and seven o'clock in the morning of the 15th of June, to induce witness's father-in-law to vote for him, witness being at the time a-bed in the same room. Witness having lived at Penryn since he was a child, remembers that "Penryn breakfasts" mean giving of money by the candidates to the voters after an election. John Gill deposed, that upon Mr. Swann's application to him for his vote, witness told him he must have 15 l. for his vote. Mr. Swann, hugging him round the waist, between five and six in the morning, told him to go to Abey Winn, who gave witness 6l. but saying that the 15 l. he demanded should be made up to him after the election was over. Witness, however, regarded the 6l. as not enough, as "a mere fly," as he called it, but still retaining that money, he voted for Mr. Anderdon and sir C. Hawkins. Witness declared that he did not receive any money from those for whom he voted, but that he was promised more than six pounds at different times. Upon the question being put whether the witness who has lived fourteen years at Penryn, knew for what purpose voters want a "breakfast" after an election, he declined to answer it. William Timmin deposed, that he saw Mr. Swann in presence of Mr. Goodeve, give 8l. to Chas. Lucas, and for his vote I heard him promise Lucas 5l. more after the election. Witness was appointed by Abey Winn to stay with a voter of the name of Lamp-shire all the night before the election commenced, on which night Lampshire supped in company with Mr. Swann and Abey Winn, and that in the morning Lampshire went to the poll, declaring that he would not poll for Mr. Swann unless paid by Wynn; that on his return from the poll Lampshire showed witness some notes

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which Lampshire said he had received from Winn. Witness stood behind a screen in the room where Mr. Swann supped with his friends, on the night before the election, having been ordered by Winn, for whom he usually worked, to stop there in order to prevent Mr. Swann from experiencing any interruption. Abey Winn was generally an active man in the Penryn elections. Thos. Cock deposed, that he saw Mr. Goodeve give Lucas 8l. which he received from Mr. Swann at the house alluded to by the last witness, and that he also heard Goodeve promise Lucas 5l. more after the election. Witness saw Mr. Durnsford, a friend of Mr. Swarm's give Mrs. Trathen the 16 l. in her husband's presence, as well as in the presence of Mr. Swann, to induce the former to vote for the latter. Witness followed Mr. Swann through Penryn previous to the last election, believing that he was bribing, as witness understood that he had usually done at former election.—William Hellard deposed that he saw the 16 l. given to Trathan, as alleged by the last witness, and that Goodeve and Durnsford the friends of Mr. Swann, were master-brewers at Penryn.—James Cock deposed that Mr. Swann gave his wife some silver in his presence, in order to induce him to give his vote for him. Witness heard of the "breakfasts" after the election; but never heard of the electors receiving 15 l. 18 l, or 20 l. each for their votes.—Francis Major deposed, that he received 10 l. from Mr. Swann, to induce him to vote for that gentleman, which he did, and he received 2l.after the election from Abey Winn.—Here the case was closed on the part of the petitioners; and John Goodeve, adduced on the part of the sitting member, denied the allegations of bribery deposed to by the witnesses on the other side, and in which he was stated to have been a party. Witness, however, declined to answer a question with regard to an offer stated to have been made by him to an elector of the name of Jenkins to induce that elector to vote for Mr. Swann. —Wm. Trathan being adduced, it was decided by the committee that he was a competent witness as to the general transaction of the election, but that he could not be examined to rebut the evidence of the fact of his having been bribed himself, that is, that he should not be allowed to Say any thing in vindication of his own character. Upon what ground the committee had come to this decision, he (sir
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C. B.) declared himself incapable of comprehending; for a witness having sworn to tell the truth and the whole truth, it appeared very extraordinary that the tribunal before which that oath was administered should determine that he should tell only a certain part of the truth. But he would make no farther comment upon this part of the transaction. It was open to the House to draw its own inference from the minutes. Trathan stated, that Mr. Anderdon, the petitioner promised to make him master of one of his vessels, if he (witness) would vote for him, and that Mr. Mitchell an attorney, was present at the time that promise was made, as was Mr. Williams at the repetition of it on the next day. Peter Brabin deposed, that Mr. Anderdon called upon him immediately before the last election to solicit his vote, he was accompanied by Mr. Sewell. Witness hesitating to make any promise, Mr. Sewell beckoned him into a small passage where he went with Mr. S. alone; but upon the question being put as to what passed in that passage, the counsel for Mr. Anderdon objected to the admissibility of the evidence, while the counsel for the sitting member contended that it was admissible to show that Sewell was the agent of the petitioner, and the committee decided in favour of the objection of the petitioner's counsel. Upon what ground this decision was pronounced, he could not at all imagine. Robert Earle deposed that he heard Thos. Toy say, in presence of Mr. Anderdon, at a public meeting, on his first appearance at Penryn, that he was the son of a very respectable gentleman in London, as well as the son in law of Mr. Manning, one of the bank directors; adding, that Mr. Swann had never paid the "breakfast," and was not likely to do so on this occasion, but that Mr. Anderdon would stand or fall by the electors. Lord de Dunstanville, the hon. baronet observed, was, as it appeared from the evidence, the recorder of Penryn, and that a certain action brought against one of Mr. Swann's supporters was compromised under mysterious circumstances. The last witness examined was Oliver Gregory, who contradicted the evidence of Peter Brabin, by alleging that the latter told him. during the last election at Penryn, that Mr. Swann had given him (Brabin) 25 l. for his vote. The hon. baronet, after shortly recapitulating his statement of the evidence, expressed his conviction that some proceeding should be taken by

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the House, not upon any visionary view of reform, but in order to prevent the recurrence of such scandalous corruption as marked the conduct of the electors of Penryn, either by throwing open that borough to the inhabitants of the vicinage or by such other measure as to the wisdom of the House might appear expedient. He concluded with moving as an amendment, "That a Committee should be appointed to make farther inquiry with regard to the corrupt and illegal practices proved by the minutes on the table to nave taken place at the election of Penryn, and to report their opinion thereupon to the House."
The Speakerbegged to suggest that this motion could hardly be received as an amendment on the motion for a new writ. The universal practice in such cases had been, to move that the Speaker should not issue his writ till a certain day, and thus put off the proceeding, from time to time, till a decision had been come to on the merits of the case.
Sir C. Burrellfelt obliged to the Speaker for setting him. right, and the amendment being withdrawn, he proposed another amendment to the question, by adding the words "not issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown, to make out a new Writ for the electing of a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Penryn, in the room of Henry Swann, esq. whose Election has been determined to be void, before this day month."
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he felt great difficulty in rising to discuss this question, as he must confess that he had not been able to pay that close attention to the subject which it deserved from its importance, not only to the character of many individuals, but to the character of the House itself. He, however, could find in the statement of the hon. baronet nothing that ought to induce the House to alter the constitution of the borough in question, by throwing it open to those who had not heretofore enjoyed the right of voting. It had undoubtedly been shown, that several instances of bribery had occurred, but nothing had been proved that went so far to inculpate the great body of the electors, as to justify a measure of such severity. In a case where the punishment must fall on the innocent as well as the guilty, the House ought to pause before they decided on taking the course which had
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been recommended to them, He could not conceive a more injurious precedent than that which would be established if the House were to appoint one committee, as had been proposed to try the decision of another with the same witnesses, to examine with precisely, the same means of obtaining information. The result of this might be, that the two committees would make reports of an opposite character, and then he could wish to know what part the House was to act. In every former case, where a borough had been thrown open, it had been proved that a great majority of the voters were corrupt. In the present instance, this had not been proved; there had indeed been a good deal of loose surmise, and a great deal of gossip and tittle-tattle, but nothing had been positively proved against the great body of the voters. Under these circumstances, he trusted the House would not go farther against the electors generally, whatever steps they might feel themselves called upon to take in order to punish particular individuals.
Sir James Mackintoshsaid, he had listened with some attention to the few arguments which the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down had employed in the course of his speech. By so doing, he had discovered that the right hon. gentleman had entered into reasonings which were, in their tendency, of much greater importance than the original question it-self. That question, however, was one of the most important questions that could come before them; and, in the present temper of the country, was rendered more important than ever, inasmuch as it was necessary to show the disposition of the House with zeal and vigour, where such corruptions as had been just produced were brought before it. He was therefore sorry to hear the words gossipping and tittle-tattle applied to facts which were so well substantiated, because they were not the words which a minister of the crown ought to apply to such heinous breaches of the constitution as had been reported to the House. He should almost suppose that the chancellor of the exchequer had not heard the speech of the hon. baronet as be had so completely mistaken its tendency and bearing. The hon. baronet had not talked of disfranchising the borough; be had only told them that there was a prima facie case of bribery and corruption

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established against it, which called for the strictest examination, and which ought, therefore, to be investigated most narrowly in justice to the House, the country, and the borough which was so strongly implicated in it. As the hon. baronet had not said a word about disfranchisement, the arguments used against it were inapplicable, and did not require any notice from him. He could not, however, in justice to that hon. member, refrain from saying, that his conduct in this business had been highly laudable, and had given him a fair title to the thanks of the House and the country, inasmuch as he had brought the question forward in a manner well calculated to reconcile the people to the laws and constitution as they existed. At present, any man who had read the minutes of evidence, must have seen that there was a complexion of corruption in the whole business from beginning to end; and the question in consequence was, whether it was such a colour and such a complexion as authorized inquiry? In his opinion it certainly was sufficient, especially when he recollected what the chancellor of the exchequer seemed to have forgotten, that, a few years back, the election of the members returned for Penryn had been voided on account of bribery. With regard to the argument that the appointment of another committee would be to retry the case, he maintained that it would be no such thing. The former committee had concluded its sittings, had given in its report, had declared the sitting member to be unduly elected, and nothing could again call it into existence. The committee now moved for had not to renew the investigation which the previous committee had begun; it had only to inquire, whether the borough of Penryn had not been guilty of such corrupt and illegal practices as required the interference of parliament.; and whether its inhabitants had not betrayed the most sacred trust which could be confided in them—the privilege of ejection. But then, gays the chancellor of the exchequer, the House has not the power of examining witnesses upon oath. What then had become of those decision which had been made previously to the passing of the Grenville act? If the right hon. gentleman meant to say, that the House could, under no circumstances, administer an oath, what did he say of the proceedings in impeach-
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ment, or what, in the proceeding, which he did not mean to defend, on bills of attainder? To use such language was to arraign the principle on which our fore fathers had acted, and was calculated to bring into contempt both the justice and the jurisdiction of the House. He therefore must treat every objection which was founded on the principle that the House was not able to administer on oath, as irrelevant to the question. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to argue n the necessity of appointing another committee, because the last-appointed committee had no right to inquire into the corrupt practices which had existed previously to the late election. Great evidence of them had come incidentally upon their minutes, though, in his opinion, it was not sufficient to disfranchise the borough of Penryn. It was however worth considering, whether these incidental discoveries were not such as ought to lead the House to prosecute the investigation further, and to reflect, whether they ought not to transfer the elective franchise to those who would make a better use of it than its present possessors. Such a line of conduct was most calculated to vindicate the honour and integrity of parliament, and he should, in consequence, vote for the motion of the hon. baronet.
Mr. A. Wrightwas of opinion, as the first committee had acted under the sacred obligation of an oath, no second committee should be appointed, as if to try the merits of their decision. A general impression seemed to prevail in the committee of the intended disfranchisement of Penryn; but he had given his opinion to those who spoke to him on the subject, that there were not sufficient proof's of general corruption to authorize any proceeding to such an extremity; and that opinion he did not now see any reason to alter.
The Hon. F. Douglassaid, he considered the question of considerable importance, inasmuch as it showed the practices which were only too common in many boroughs. He would go so far as to suspend the issuing of the writ; and if the borough were found guilty of the practices imputed to it, he would vote for merging the right of suffrage in, the neighbouring hundreds. He wag less inclined than many members of the House to support the cause of reform, because, though he saw the evils which, existed in the pre-

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sent system, he was afraid of any vague and indefinite investigation into the nature of government. He was, however, anxious for investigation into isolated cases, whenever they occurred, and especially when they occurred in open rotten boroughs, where it was well known that the greatest abuses existed. In the present case, he should consider the matter judicially, as far as related to the borough, and constitutionally as far as regarded parliament. He did not think it requisite that bribery should be brought home to all the electors before a borough could be disfranchised—such evidence had never been required in any of the precedents to which he had been able to refer. In the borough of Cricklade, though many of the electors were convicted of bribery, great numbers had been actually proved not to have received any; and yet the value of their suffrage had been equally diminished to them all. In Shoreham, the whole borough had been disfranchised, because one party had endeavoured to oppress the other: he, therefore, could not conceive, after these cases, that the House could labour under much difficulty in the present instance. When he recollected all the circumstances under which the facts now known to the House had come to its knowledge; when he recollected that each party only brought forward such witnesses as could speak to particular facts; when he recollected that many of the transactions had only been discovered by cross-examination of reluctant witnesses; when he recollected that meetings had been held to deliberate on the price of their votes, and that one man had even refused to vote till the price had been paid up; when he recollected the public breakfasts, and the extraordinary purposes which they were made to serve; and when he also recollected the practices which had transpired before a former committee of the House, with respect to this very borough, he could not help feeling that the House was called upon to enter into an investigation. He was against all wild and visionary reform; but when the reform of specific abuses, like those at present before him, could be safely and practically remedied, he would never lift up his voice against so salutary a proceeding. And he would even rather come to a summary vote on the question then before the House, and have something final determined, than have the writ issued for so foul, so flagitious, so corrupt a borough as Penryn.
Sir F. Burdettsaid, he could not partake in the virtuous indignation displayed by the House on the present question, because he had long been aware, that the practices which had called it forth were "as notorious as the sun at noon-day." When he recollected that, on one of the king's ministers being accused of trafficking in seats in parliament, the accusation was met and stopped by this declaration, he did not see what right the House had to assume so much of the pride of virtue upon this occasion. It was hard to say, and it would be still more hard to get any man in that House to believe, that the other boroughs were more immaculate than the borough of Penryn; and, therefore, when he heard such loud vaunts about purity of election, privileges of parliament, breaches of those privileges, and so forth, he looked upon them as nothing more than gaudy topics of declamation—speciosa verbis, re inania. Such proceedings as were now contemplated were not, in his opinion, calculated to do good; inasmuch as they would only render these corrupt practices more secret, but not a whit less pernicious. He did not see that Mr. Swann was at all more to blame than a great many gentlemen who were fortunate enough to retain their seats, nor that Penryn and its electors were at all more culpable than the boroughs and electors in many other parts of England, and especially the west. Mr. Swann might say to some of those who now censured him so severely, "mutato nomine, the case applies to yourselves: you have been guilty of bribery as well as I." What pretence was there for saying, that there was more virtue in Old Sarum, or even in Knares-borough, though represented by the hon. and learned gentleman (sir J. Mackintosh) than in Penryn? It was perfectly notorious that 4,000 l. or 5,000 l. were taken for seats by great proprietors of boroughs; and why should indignation be so vehement against a body of men, who having their living to get, had accepted a paltry 20 l. a piece? On the contrary, it should seem that these individuals had been remarkably moderate in their demands, and had set an example to the rest of the tribe, that might be followed to advantage, for they had given a seat for the comparatively small sum of 2,500 l, It was ridiculous to talk of an inquiry like this; it was a mere mockery to suppose that it would accomplish any good end. The honour of the House, or if that were

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begging the question [Hear, hear!], at all events, the sense of the country demanded a general and immediate investigation of the whole subject. In truth, the character of the House, and the respect that ought to be felt for it out or doors, had been lost by idle opposition to it. He could not, therefore, agree to the disfranchisement of Penryn, or to any step that might lead it. It would be a gross act of injustice to punish an individual who had not sinned more than a great many others who were untouched, and a borough which was probably not so corrupt, as a great number of others that could be mentioned. It was well known — no gentleman could venture to deny—that bribery had been committed in a thousand other instances, and the punishment of it in this particular case, instead of correcting the evil (if hon. gentlemen could persuade themselves that it was one), would have directly a contrary effect: it would be considered in the country as a proceeding where injustice was backed by hypocrisy. The folly of it also was apparent, for no man would be imposed upon out of doors; no man with his eyes open would believe that it was any thing but a trick and contrivance—a pretence to induce the weak and childish to imagine that parliament was desirous to purge itself of corruption, when in truth it was only anxious speciously to cover its iniquity. For his own part, he would much rather that boroughs were at once rendered legally and publicly saleable as at an auction, because he knew that there were many honest and independent men in the kingdom who would willingly give 4,000 l. or 5,000 l. for a seat in the House, if they could do it fairly and properly, that they might bring forward schemes which they thought would benefit their country [Hear, hear!] They wished, and he wished, that the system of secret nomination and secret intrigue should be totally abolished, and that the morals of the country should no longer be undermined, and the character of the house invaded, by such nefarious practices. Why should not boroughs avowed to be marketable, be rendered openly marketable like any other commodity? For these reasons, he protested against all measures of severity against any of the parties concerned in these transactions.
Mr. Brandsaid, that he would not yield to any man, not even to the hon. baronet, in zeal for his favourite cause of parlia-
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mentary reform; but he rose to protest against the view that had been just taken of this question. He was most anxious to witness the amendment of the existing system of representation; and he had indulged a sanguine expectation, that such an amendment would have been accomplished, until the hope was checked and blasted by wild and visionary schemes, like those which had now been noticed. AH those who had sincerely and strenuously, discreetly and constantly, looked forward to this object, had been repelled, at least for a time, by the violence and extravagance of the doctrines of a certain body of parliamentary reformers. He was not one of those who, because he could not obtain a general revision of the system, would not avail themselves of the opportunity of detecting and punishing the most flagitious and abandoned practices. It had been said by the chancellor of the exchequer, that there was no evidence on which the House could proceed; but was it meant to be asserted, if any member in his place asserted that he knew that in a certain borough candidates or voters had been guilty of bribery, that an inquiry could not and ought not to be instituted? Next, it had been argued, that as the House could not investigate upon oath, all inquiry ought to be abandoned; but it ought to be recollected, that a great deal probably yet remained behind, and which had been fitly excluded in the committee, because it did not touch either of the parties before it. That body had not power enough, nor sufficient range, to enter fully into the matter, but on this very account it was more the duty of the House not to allow the matter to drop. Gregory was the only witness whose evidence was totally unimpeached; the rest were assailed in one way or another; and Peter Bradin appeared to have been perjured throughout. He thought the suggestion of an hon. member well deserving attention: what he had thrown out was a most wholesome and beneficial species of reform, and if it could not be done in the particular case, he was sorry for it: he wished to see the right of election taken wholly from such places, and given to more populous towns, such as Birmingham or Manchester; or, if the landed interest were not adequately represented, let it be conferred upon one of the divisions of Yorkshire. As to unity in the right of voting, it was the most absurd of all absurd projects; it was a chimerical

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and fanatical idea, that he believed had not entered into the head of any man who had seriously reflected on the question. One of the great advantages of the pre- sent system was, that unity of voting did not exist. He hoped that the right hon. gentleman would take time to reconsider the determination he had stated, and enable the House, by unanimity in this vote, to give a satisfactory answer to the country on the question, how it had discharged its duties in a case of such flagrant delinquency.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had no objection to a short postponement of the motion for issuing a writ, but he should object to the proposed mode of inquiry.
Mr. Beaumontsaid, that although no friend to wild reform, he considered the transfer of the elective franchise from such corrupt boroughs as Penryn, to towns like Manchester or Leeds, the most salutary reform which the House could adopt, or the country with a view to its own good expect, and he should therefore vote for inquiry.
Mr. Martin, of Galway, said, that his principal objection to the motion was, that it tended to a parliamentary reform of the worst species. He was more disposed to the proposal of the hon. baronet, that if any inquiry was necessary, it should be a general one. He thought that no member who had ever voted against parliamentary reform could vote for further inquiry into this case. No general corruption had been proved against the borough, and it was unjust to punish the many for the transgressions of the few.
Mr. Bankesthought the proposed inquiry by a committee contrary to all parliamentary practice. He agreed, that where a gross case of corruption had been made out, disfranchisement and transference was the most unexceptionable and practicable mode of reform. It had been tried with success many years ago by Mr. Pitt, in the cases of Shoreham and Ayles-bury; but they were clearly distinguishable from the case now before the House; here the committee had laid no ground whatever for any ulterior step, and the House could not proceed therefore in the face of the minutes. At the same time he was net disposed to exclude all remedy, fey granting the writ; and though the proposed delay was rather too long, he should not object to that part of the motion He was by no means opposed to a
[920
wise system of parliamentary reform; but he was convinced that there were better modes of accomplishing the object, than by pulling down upon our heads the whole fabric of the constitution. There was no instance in old times, but especially since the passing of the Grenville act, of the appointment of a second committee, after a first had concluded its labours. He did not concur in the observation, that the House could not inquire judicially, because it could not, in a case like this, examine upon oath. He was not aware that the administration of an oath to witnesses under these circumstances would be attended with any advantages. He objected to the appointment of a second committee, merely because it was not authorized by precedent, and because it would give the House too much power: it would tend to draw every thing into the vortex of the House. It was true that this was the second time Penryn had been before the House, but still he did not see his way clear in going further than delaying the issue of the writ.
Sir John Newportargued, that if the former committee were functus officio, it was the strongest reason for appointing a new body of the same kind, and with more extensive powers, to embrace not merely matters brought home to the members or to the petitioners, but to the electors. If the House refused to investigate further, it would establish a precedent for not examining into any case of corruption however gross, unless it were brought home to one of the candidates. It was clear that the borough of Penryn had proceeded since 1807, not only in general corruption, but in the same system of corruption which had then been-detected: it had almost been brought home to the same parties, and if the committee had only reported against a few electors, yet at two meetings, where eighty or a hundred were present, the most corrupt propositions were made for tendering themselves for sale to the son-in-law of a Bank Director, who could come down with a certain sum of money. Though the House would not countenance the doctrines of annual parliaments and universal suffrage—though it rejected wild and visionary plans of reform, yet it owed to the country, and to those who looked with suspicion upon its conduct, to show that it was not reluctant to inquire into crime, and to punish the guilty The question was not now, what town should

921
be substituted for Penryn, but whether it was fit that any town should be substituted? These points were quite distinct: and those who voted for the one, need not necessarily pledge themselves as to the other.
Mr. Carew, as one of the members of the committee, begged to observe, that proof of general corruption in the borough was given; it was sworn that it had been the general practice to give a breakfast, and to present each of the electors present with 24 l.; that Mr. Swan had been three times returned, and that he owed his present failure to an abandonment of that good old custom, which had induced the voters to call in a third candidate who would give them a breakfast and 24 l. Mr. Anderdon thought the bribery so notorious as to warrant a resort to the act of disqualification; Mr. Swann returned the compliment by rejecting Mr. Anderdon's voters, and a notice was mutually given that the votes on each side were thrown away. The bribery oath had not been heard of; and it was generally supposed, that if any candidate were so unpolite and so impolitic as to propose that it should be taken, he would be considered in Cornwall virtually disqualified. If there were no actual precedent, he thought the House ought to find a precedent to meet this case, which in point of grossness was perhaps not exceeded by any upon the Journals.
Mr. Wynnreferred to the case of the county of Hants, as an authority for suspending the writ at present. It was true, that it had not been formally suspended, but no motion had been made for it until after the minutes had been printed, eleven days after the report of the special committee had been made. The question now was, whether the House should continue to suspend the writ for Penryn; and if he had thought that no grounds had been laid for further inquiry, he should undoubtedly dissent from the motion for suspending the writ. He saw many matters in the evidence already printed, requiring further investigation; but in the first place, it was the strong impression of many members of the committee that the subject should not here be closed. It appeared beyond question, that meetings had been held, at which resolutions were agreed to, and in consequence of which, a candidate had gone down; and if bribery and other corrupt practices could act be brought home to the mem-
[922
bers, it was of great importance that the House should know how far the electors were implicated. Some hand-bills of a singular nature were also referred to in the evidence, but they were not received by the committee, as it was not thought that it was sufficiently shown that the candidates had any concern in them. These subjects required further investigation. It was well known, that a losing candidate would not petition the House, but would rather wish to withdraw any prayer of that kind. It might very properly be matter for the consideration of the House, whether it was possible to extend the oath taken by the committee, so as to enable them not only to try the matter immediately before them, but to report upon any acts of bribery that might incidentally come out during their sitting, and the names of the persons concerned in them. Certainly, the arguments adduced in opposition to the issuing of a new writ, by the hon. baronet and one other hon. gentleman, were all of them of the most discordant character. The hon. baronet had declared that he should not have opposed the motion, had not the same practices been permitted ten years ago, in a sitting member; so that because the House did not do its duty ten years ago, it was neither now nor on any other occasion to act as became its character! Because the House then passed over a flagrant and notorious case of corruption, it was not now to interfere to vindicate its own honour, and assert its own dignity! The hon. baronet had said that the returned member, when upbraided with his misconduct, might turn round on every member of the House, and address them—"mutato nomine, de to fibula narratur." How far this declaration applied to the hon. baronet, he really did not know; but speaking for himself, and for many, his most valued friends, at that moment sitting round him, he declared it to be an utterly false and unfounded calumny [Hear, hear!] If the House would preserve its honour, its dignity, its character, if it would vindicate these to the country, it became its bounden duty (and a grave and most sacred duty it was) to consider such offences. When these offences were known to exist generally, and strong suspicions existed as to particular cases, it was, he would maintain, its imperative duty to examine further. He could not entirely separate the case before the House from that of 1807, al-

923
though twelve years had intervened between them, especially when he found that the then and present sitting member for that borough, which was the subject of the inquiry then instituted, gave 24 l. a vote, the precise sum offered on the present occasion. Here was, therefore, good reason to believe that a more extensive system of bribery and corruption existed than was yet apprehended. He thought the term of one month was too long, as it was very possible the committee might be enabled to make its report in a much less time: he should move, therefore, that "one fortnight" be substituted for the words "one month."
Sir F. Burdettcomplained that the hon. member had misrepresented him, in saying he had applied his remarks to every member of the House; his statement was, that the persons accused might turn round on the members of "every other rotten borough," and make the same charge: and if the hon. member asserted he had made use of any other term, he asserted what was false.
Mr. Wynnsaid, he had understood the observations of the hon. baronet to take a much wider range, and to convey a general censure on members of that House, more particularly those representing boroughs.
Mr. V. Blakeentreated the hon. member and the hon. baronet to abstain from any allusions calculated to excite irritation during the discussion of the subject before the House.
Mr. C. Calvertwished to know if the hon. baronet intended that his observation should extend to the borough of South-wark? If so, it was most false and calumnious.
Sir F. Burdettthought it very hard to be thus called upon after his former explanation; which he repeated.
Sir R. Wilsonobserved, that his hon. colleague might have been sure, had the hon. baronet's observation applied to Southwark, that he (sir R. Wilson) would not have allowed it to pass without observation [a laugh]. He so far agreed with the hon. baronet, that he hoped reform would not be confined to Penryn, but that it would be extended to the correction of those abuses which were known so generally to exist; but he trusted with the hon. member for Hertfordshire, that the present opportunity of commencing that reform would not be neglected.
Sir C. Burrellsaid, he had no objection
[924
to the amendment proposed by Mr. Wynn.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeralso observed, that the alteration of the term to a fortnight removed his objections to the original motion.
The motion as amended was then agreed to. After which.
Sir C. Burrell Sir C. Burrell moved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire further into the existence of certain corrupt and illegal practices which appear to have prevailed in the borough of Penryn previous to and during the late election, and to report their opinion, together with their observations thereupon to the House." After a short conversation, it was agreed, that the debate on this motion should be adjourned till to-morrow.

EXCHEQUER CONSOLIDATION ACTS.
The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Exchequer Consolidation Acts,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he did not anticipate any objection to the arrangement he was about to propose, and he hoped, at that late hour, no detailed discussion would take place. The committee was well aware, that by the practice of the exchequer, the revenue received for the purposes of the consolidated fund accumulated till the end of the quarter, and those sums had not been made applicable to the public service, but the Bank had had the advantage of the interest on them. The accumulations of the sums thus received for the consolidated fund, which were not applicable at present, unless to the payment of the interest of the public debt, the sinking fund, and the civil list, he proposed to apply to the public service, till required for their original purpose. It was evident that large sums of money came daily into the exchequer, and were at present inapplicable to any public service until the close of the quarter The interest on these sums had been lost to the public, and had proved a source of emolument only to the Bank of England. The simple proposal, therefore which he had to submit to the House was, that the public should have the benefit, instead of the Bank, of those accumulations. The sum to be thus applied, however, he should propose to be limited to a definite amount, namely, 6,000,00 l., which was nearly as large a sum as was usually accumulated from one quarter's end to the other. He should further propose,

925
that at the time these sums were taken from the exchequer, exchequer bills should be replaced as a security, which bills should be realised at the close of the quarter. It would be recollected by the committee, that a negotiation between the Bank and Mr. Perceval took place in 1808, and it would be found, by a referrence to the report of a committee of the House, that Mr. Perceval then entertained a similar idea to that which he was now about to submit. It appeared that at that time he proposed to render the growing produce of the consolidated fund applicable to the public service, making provision for its re-instatement at the close of the quarter. The extent to which Mr. Perceval intended to carry the application was 5,000,000 l., but this plan was subsequently given up, and the minister thought the more convenient mode would be to accept from the Bank the sum of three millions, without interest, in lieu of the advantages the public would have otherwise derived from the appropriation of these accumulated sums to the public service. In Ireland, a practice similar to the one proposed had been acted upon. The agreement which Mr. Perceval had entered into with the Bank had expired on the 5th April 1815; and it was afterwards, by different acts of parliament continued to the 5th April 1818. At the time when Mr. Perceval made his arrangement, the balances in the hands of the Bank were far more considerable than they were at j present. At that period those balances amounted to between 11,000,000 l. and 12,000,000 l. Since that time this amount had greatly decreased in consequence of the peace. A very large sum had also been taken from these balances by the new arrangement with regard to the payment of the sinking fund under the consolidation acts, by which the sums applicable to the redemption of the debt, in-stead of being paid in large masses, were issued gradually, without leaving any large balances unemployed in the hands of the Bank. The remaining balances had been reduced as low as could be allowed with safety; and, upon a reference to the accounts upon the table it world be seen that there were seldom in the hands of the Bank balances for more than ten days of what the public service required. He was sure the committee would agree with him, that it would be scarcely prudent to reduce the balances in the hands of the Bank below the pre-
[926
sent amount; but the reduction of these balances was a subject to which the treasury would pay its vigilant attention. Upon the expiration of the agreement made by Mr. Perceval, by which the Bank agreed to advance the sum of 3.000,000 l., much discussion had taken place, and it had been his duty to inquire whether the Bank would consent to the proposed arrangement. He had now the satisfaction of stating to the committee, that the Bank had expressed its willingness to assist in carrying this plan into execution. In the measure he should propose, he should also introduce a clause limiting, for a certain time, the application of the sum of 6,000,000 l., so taken out of the exchequer, to the public service, and applying it to the liquidation of debts due to the Bank from government. It was necessary to observe, that the arrangements would be subject to any arrear of debt due to the Bank, outstanding from the preceding quarter. It would be recollected that there was an arrear of the consolidated fund amounting to upwards of 3,000,000 l. outstanding from 5th Jan. last to the liquidation of which debt a portion of this sum of 6,000,000 l. would be applied. This, then, was the substance of the plan he had to propose. He himself felt convinced of the benefit the public would derive from such an arrangement; but he was aware that others might be of a different opinion; and with a view to satisfy all parties, he should introduce a clause for limiting the continuance of the measure to the 5th July, 1820. He concluded with moving, "That it is the opinion of this Committee that it is expedient the growing produce of the Consolidated Fund in Great Britain be made applicable in each quarter, to an amount not exceeding six millions on the whole at any time, to such services as shall be voted by parliament, until the same be required for the services for which it is appropriated."
Mr. Maberlycomplained, that the 9th of March had arrived before any thing had been done to explain and settle the finances of the year. The six millions mentioned by the right hon. gentleman as being partly intended to cover arrears, were now sunk to 2,700,000 l. which would not be sufficient by 300,000 l. to repay the three millions due to the Bank. The current expenditure of the country was twenty millions, and the amount of the unfunded debt forty-eight millions.

927
If the former were divided by twelve, the monthly expenditure would be found to Amount to about 1,700,000 l. To meet this, there was a total in regular taxes of not more than 7,000,000 l. If the monthly 1,700,000 l. were multiplied by three, the expenditure of the quarter would appear to be 5,100,000 l. and only 4,000,000 l. of ways and Means to cover it, leaving a deficiency of 1,100,000 l. on the April quarter. He had made these statements to show that the country might be deprived of money altogether for the ensuing quarter: for the exchequer bills might then be paid in on account of the revenue. If it were said that they would not, then the right hon. gentleman must raise the interest on them, for they were already at a considerable discount, and would of course be paid in if it continued to increase. Where, in that case, should we find funds to meet the expenditure from April to July, and the other quarters? With a deficiency in our revenue nearly equal to the sinking fund, what would be our situation but a state of bankruptcy, if war or a rumour of war should arise—if the ferment in France did not subside, and a new revolution took place in that country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequergave the hon. gentleman credit for not having intentionally misstated any thing in his speech, but he certainly had mistaken several points. The hon. gentleman, in the first place, had said that the produce of the revenue would be exhausted by the 5th of April; but the hon. gentleman must have forgotten entirely, that a great part of the expenditure of the quarter had been provided for from the produce of the past year. In every year there were sums of money remaining from the supplies of the previous year. This had been the case in 1818, and it was the case. in the present year. The current revenue of last year had not been required to be issued for the public service till March, the supplies voted in the preceding year answering the expenditure till that time. With respect to the amount of the unfunded debt, the hon. gentleman was right in stating it at about 48,000,000 l., but he had omitted one thing of great importance, namely, that 16,000,000 l. had been paid off last year—a sum so large, that if we could then bear it along with the present amount complained of, we might be relieved from any apprehension of being overwhelmed With, unfunded debt. The hon. gentleman
║
[928
had expressed a suspicion that from the discount at which Exchequer bills now were, they would be paid into the revenue. This he (the chancellor of the exchequer) did not strongly apprehend. They were now at no greater discount than 2s., and when formerly at a discount of 20 s., they were not paid in. Now, with regard to his plan for meeting the demands of the public service, he must defer any explanation till he came to give the financial statement of the year. That would not be done till the report of the secret committee on the Bank affairs was laid on the table. Till then he would preserve the same silence as to his ulterior intentions which he had hitherto maintained. The financial statement, under the name of the Budget, had seldom been brought forward before the Easter holydays. How soon he should present it to the House this year he could not now say; but neither in the time when it would be ready, nor in the plans which it would contain, would he entangle himself by any pledges which might prejudice the public interest.
Mr. Tierneythought the statement of the hon. gentleman had been by no means answered. The right hon. gentleman had told them, that the current year only began in March, and that the sum requisite before that time would be found from some other quarter; but if this was the case, a sum of money equal to six weeks expenditure, more than any gentleman in the House was aware of, had been granted in the last session. As to the probability that Exchequer bills would be at a discount, the fluctuations in the price of public securities were so great, that it was impossible to say what might be their value at any future time, however near. Exchequer bills had been at 20 s. discount; they were now down to 2s, probably on account of this speech, which it was known the chancellor of the exchequer was to make. Whether the speech, now it was more fully understood, would produce a similar effect, he did not know; but if he were a holder of Exchequer bills, he should be more disposed to sell than to buy. It was manifest, that at the commencement of April, if the bills were at the same discount and likely to go lower, the holders would dispose of them to those who had to make payments to the revenue, as there would be a gain of 2s. on every 100 l. Was the chancellor of the exchequer content to let the finances of the country rest on the speculation, whether

929
there might or might not be a discount on Exchequer bills? Not only wars, or rumours of wars, but those reports which were every day current, might produce the effect he had described; and then, where the chancellor of the exchequer was to get money he did not know! Not from the Bank to be sure; for if the right hon. gentleman was so delicate that he would not bring forward his financial arrangements while the inquiry concerning cash payments was in progress, the Bank itself would not be so indecent as to anticipate the report of that committee, by advancing money which it might be necessary for it to keep. The chancellor of the exchequer, by his present course of proceeding, though he must have perfectly made up his mind as to what was to be done, had left it open to speculators to raise or lower the price of the funds as they thought fit. He left the exposure of his financial scheme till after the report of the committee: when that time would be, the chancellor of the exchequer might know, but he (Mr. T.) had not the most distant guess. According to present appearances, from the length of the examinations, he thought it not probable that the report could be made till after Easter; and, if read with the attention necessary to enable them to discuss it, the House could not decide upon it till the middle of May. After the 3,300,000 l. of arrears had been paid out of the 6,000,000 l. which the chancellor of the exchequer had spoken of, what was to become of the 2,700,000 l. which remained? Was it to repay the loan from the Bank? [the chancellor of the exchequer assented]. If this was the case, the whole that the public would save was the interest on this sum; which was so far desirable. But was this any thing to encourage any man as a financial re- source? Beyond the amount of the interest saved, there was not the fraction of a farthing to get the chancellor of the exchequer out of his financial difficulties. At this very time a sum of 13 or 14 millions was to be borrowed, if the sinking fund was to go on. That is, while we were boasting that we had a sinking fund of 18 or 14 millions, we were obliged to borrow nearly the same sum. This was not to be imputed as a fault to the chancellor of the exchequer; but his fault was, that he did not put the country in a way to see its real situation. By the adoption of repeated and varying shifts, and by holding out fallacious promises, he enabled
[930
the wary to prey upon the unwary; and if his study had been to play into the hands of the stock-jobbers, he could Mot have conducted himself otherwise. So manifestly true was this, that no man but the right hon. gentleman, whose character he acknowledged to be clear from any possible imputation, could have conducted himself thus without incurring suspicion. He had been constantly buoying up the House with the hope of prosperous days, which the House was to arrive at without effort. He had boasted that he would pay oft" the 5 per cents, and had made every exertion to lower the interest of money, for no other purpose that he could divine, but to make flourishing speeches about the state of public credit. Why did he not now give a general view of the budget which he would hereafter have to propose? Why, but for the purpose of delusion, did he keep from the House the view of difficulties which sooner or later they must meet? The main question was, what was to be done with the 48 millions of unfunded debt? That question the chancellor of the exchequer might answer now, but he reserved himself for a grand display. He might, however, depend upon it, that no grand display would he make this year. He, or the system of finance adopted by the ministers of whom he was the mouthpiece, began to be thoroughly understood. In the mean time, the most ridiculous rumours were permitted to affect the price of the public securities. There were even men who got their living by supposed examinations in the secret committee. He had no doubt a man might turn a penny by saying what the evidence was which was received by the committee on this or that morning. He should now trouble the chancellor of the exchequer no further. It was in vain to press him to state what was the situation of the country, and what the remedy he had to apply. He (Mr. T.) however, wished not to be supposed to hold out a hope of any secret remedy. There was no remedy but in severe measures. But those measures the House should be informed of at once.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, that with respect to the plan now under consideration, the right hon. gentleman had made it a reproach to ministers, that they had not sooner made the Bank balances available for the purposes of the government. It was right to adopt that plan at present; but he denied that any advantage would

931
have accrued from having adopted it sooner, as the plan formerly resorted to was as good as this of applying the 6,000,000 l. to the use of government. That, however, was a question which would afterwards come under discussion. Both plans had been before the House, and it had then been thought better to take the three millions, than the floating benefit of the Bank exchanges. The right hon. gentleman had said, that he, as a member of the committee, felt the difficulty of bringing forward matters connected with the inquiry of the committee. For the same reason, it would be impossible for his right hon. friend at present to bring forward any plan of supply, without exposing himself to questions respecting the arrangements of the committee, which it would be improper to answer. Without knowing what was to be the result of the committee above stairs, it was, indeed, impossible to enter into any plan of supply for the year. Whatever that report might be, he hoped they would be able to discharge their duty by providing for their peace establishment, and for the support of the public credit. They wished to make such efforts, not on partial statements, but on a relative view of the expenditure, the revenue, the funded debt, and the state of the public credit: and he trusted the result of their exertions would be the diminution of that debt, and the confirmation of that credit. He hoped the committee would use the utmost diligence in preparing their report, and that when it came before the House, they would be enabled to do their duty to the country, and to make good the promise which they had given, and in which the right hon. gentleman had joined, that they would not hesitate to make the necessary sacrifices, in order to support the public credit.
Mr. Tierney—The right hon. gentleman forgets one species of severity to which I alluded, I mean the severity of retrenchment. The absence of that severity presses hard on the people, who are to pay, but is never thought of by those who are in the habit of receiving.
Mr. Grenfellwas glad, that these balances would now be available for the public service. For the last four years, there were generally 6,000,000 l. in hand, and those balances consisted at present of about 7,000,000 l. The argument of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Huskisson) was a strange one. He contended thus—
[932
"formerly the public had the use of 3,000,000 l. without interest, they will now have 6,000,000 l., but yet they gain nothing by it." He did not understand this arithmetic. If he took the matter rightly, the country was in future to have the use of 6,000,000 l. of these balances: if so, he would ask, must they not be 3,000,000 l. better off than they were when, they had the loan of 3,000,000 l.?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that when, some years ago, the hon. gentleman adverted to a plan of this kind, he did not oppose the principle, but merely stated, that it could not be carried into effect, without breaking faith with the Bank. He believed the new system would be advantageous in a very material degree; and certainly the Bank were making considerable sacrifices. The country stood in a much better situation than in Mr. Perceval's time. They were now about to take six millions for seven; whereas, in the former period, Mr. Perceval took 5,000,000 l. as a compensation for twelve millions. At the same time, it must be observed, that the saving of interest would not be so large now, as when the Bank advanced 3,000,000 l. free of interest. Six millions, it was true, would be accumulated in the Exchequer, at the end of each quarter; but they could not reckon as if the interest on that entire sum was saved from the commencement of the quarter. It was, in fact, a gradually increasing fund, and not a fund formed on the moment.
Mr. Grenfell—The average balance is 7,000,000 l., and I understand we are to have the use of six of them. Is this so? Are we to have six or only three millions?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer—The six millions which we are to take from the Exchequer are not forthcoming at the beginning of the quarter. It is an accruing, a growing fund. We take the money as fast as it comes in; but we cannot, at the commencement of a quarter, say, that we save the interest on 6,000,000 l. As we have small sums coming in from time to time, to form the 6,000,000 l. It is only for a very short period that we can say we save the interest on that entire sum.
Mr. Protheroehoped the secret committee would let the country know its real situation. His right hon. friend had talked of severe measures. If such were necessary; if there were any unsound parts in our financial system, the chancellor of the exchequer ought to let the

933
country know the fact, that they might be prepared for the worst.
The resolution was agreed to.

CHIMNEY SWEEPERS' REGULATION BILL.
Lord Auckland, in rising to move the second reading of this bill, expressed his sincere hope that time and reflection had removed the objections which existed to this measure in the last session. The present bill was the same, with the exception of a few clauses, as that which had then come before their lordships, and the consideration of those clauses he should reserve for the committee. The principal means by which the object of this bill was proposed to be attained, was, by repealing the act of the 28th of the king, and limiting the number of apprentices. After the 1st of May 1821, the use of climbing-boys, except for the purpose of examining chimnies, would be done away altogether. This prohibition naturally gave rise to two questions; first, whether it was necessary for the protection of the boys employed in sweeping chimnies; and, secondly, whether it was consistent with the security of houses against fire, that it should be enforced. Upon the first of these questions, he could not anticipate any difference of opinion: it was impossible to see the unfortunate children to whom the bill applied, hourly in the streets, without experiencing the most painful emotions. Who could read the evidence which detailed the great privations and distress which they endured, without wishing to rescue them from such a state of degradation and misery? Their lordships would never permit their fellow-creatures to continue subject to such tortures as those to which
[900
these poor creatures were exposed, when they had it in their power to relieve them. This bill had been called a violent interference with the rights of individuals. On his part, he considered it a necessary measure, to protect from violence innocent children. With regard to the question of safety, it had been found that all chimnies, except a few in the houses of the rich, could be swept by machines of one kind or another. It was, indeed, thought by some, that after the introduction of machinery, boys would still be necessary to examine chimnies; but if that should be the case, it would be a less evil than the present practice. An order had been issued to the surveyor-general of the board of works, to ascertain the practicability of superseding the necessity of employing climbing boys in the sweeping chimnies by the use of machinery, and to the result of the experiments made under that order he could with confidence refer. Though colonel Stephenson thought it impossible to sweep all chimnies at present with machinery, yet, as there were but few flues to which some sort of machinery might not be applied, and these were all in the houses of the rich, it was obvious, that all the necessary alterations could easily be made before the period of the operation of this bill arrived. He had remarked, that those who doubted the practicability of the abolition of climbing-boys were chiefly those who had least experience on the subject. This might be illustrated by reference to the report. It would there be seen that Mr. Davis, who had been employed to make the experiments, spoke with the greatest confidence of the application of machinery. That gentleman had divided the flues at present in use into four classes, according to the order of their construction and the difficulty of clearing them, and it was worthy of remark that the constructions which were most easily cleaned were the most numerous. The relative proportion of the different classes of flues were thus stated by Mr. Davis. Out of 1,000 flues, there were of the first class 910, of the second 50, of the third 30, and of the fourth or most difficult only 10. It had been stated in the evidence of last year, by gentlemen on the part of the insurance companies, that if machinery was used it would be necessary that climbing-boys should examine the chimnies after they were swept. This was provided for by the present bill. He might be asked, of what use then was

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the bill, if these boys were still to be employed. To this he would answer, that the number would be diminished, and that was a great step towards the total abolition. The proportion required, after the operation of this bill, would not be more than one boy for every hundred now employed. To another objection, that the bill would have the effect of turning many boys out of employment, and throwing them, destitute, on the parishes, he should only remark, that before the period fixed for the commencement of the bill, the great majority of the boys now employed in sweeping chimnies would become totally unfit for business. The noble lord concluded by moving, that the bill be now read a second time.
The Earl of Lauderdalewas sorry to hear that the noble lord was determined to push the present bill onwards at this time Their lordships had lately heard complaints of the encouragement given to machinery, in preference to manual industry. Now, though he differed most completely from those who cherished the prejudice he alluded to—though he was convinced that the introduction of machinery had not only had the effect of enriching the proprietor, but also of enabling the workman to live better and cheaper than he otherwise could have done—yet there certainly was some difference to be drawn between their encouraging and enforcing the adoption of machinery, and especially when those persons who best understood its application in the way of trade were against its introduction at all. This species of legislation he would resist to his latest breath; and he could only account for its introduction on the score that every man who got into parliament thought himself bound to propose some novel measure, in order to become popular—a notion or persuasion, or whatever else it might be called, than which none had ever been conceived more mischievous to the interests of the people, nor more degrading to the dignity of the legislature. If their lordships were determined to adopt such a course, they must introduce a code of moral legislation unknown to their ancestors, and quite unsuited to their habits and laws. The better way, in his judgment, would be to leave reforms of this kind entirely to the moral feeling of, perhaps, the most moral people, on the whole face of the earth. At all events, he disliked a prophetic legislation, which pre-supposed that our
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successors would be neither so enlightened or benevolent as ourselves, and accordingly bound them over to their moral good behaviour. He most sincerely wished that sweeping by machinery was so perfected as to justify the disuse of climbing boys; but this did not appear to him to be the fact, and, although no stranger to emotions of humanity, he could not suffer his humanity to run headlong with him, and thereby risk the incurring of those accidents which the metropolis and populous towns might suffer from fires. He was satisfied that the humanity of the country would be as much alive two years hence to the situations of sufferers of every kind, as it appeared to be now, and that the resistance he offered to the present bill would not retard the abolition of the use of climbing boys for one single hour.
Earl Grosvenorthought that if the measure was proper to be adopted, it should now receive the sanction of parliament; for, if two years were suffered to elapse, parliament might then suppose that it had been postponed as injudicious and impolitic. Possibly he might, in supporting the present bill, be accused of inconsistency, having appeared to adopt a different course with regard to the children employed in cotton factories; but the cases were essentially different. In that of the climbing boys, actual inhumanity was practised, but in that of the cotton-spinners, no objection of that nature was made, and their employment, however injurious it might eventually prove to health, was not accompanied by positive cruelty.
The Earl of Harrowbywas surprised to hear an objection made to the bill, on the ground of its being prospective. That was a quality common to many acts, and in a measure of this nature was unavoidable; for time must be allowed for making the alterations in flues to which at present machinery could not be applied. If, when the time arrived, further time should appear necessary for accomplishing this object, parliament could suspend the operation of the present bill. The noble earl had objected to legislating on feeling; but if in this case their lordships were convinced that there existed a great mass of human misery, which it was in their power to remove, it was their duty to act on that view. What relation had this principle of action to the introduction of a moral code? It was not proposed to pass a law with reference to moral conduct

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generally, but to apply a practical remedy to an existing evil. Their lordships well knew that, in a great country like this, some inconvenience was to be expected in any change of practice, however desirable that change might be; but the inconvenience in this case dwindled to nothing when compared with the act of humanity which was to be performed. The houses in which it was necessary to make alterations belonged to individuals who could easily sustain the expense, and he doubted not that they would be made before the period fixed for the operation of the bill.
Lord Melvillewas sorry that he could not give his support to this bill. Before their lordships made up their minds to pass it, he hoped they would well consider what was said by the surveyor-general in his report, namely "that the total abolition of climbing boys in the sweeping of chimnies was at present impracticable, and could not be attempted without incurring much risk of danger to the general safety of the metropolis." This opinion, from such an authority, made him hesitate to concur with his noble friend in voting for this bill.
The House divided: Contents 17; Not Contents 14. The bill was then read a second time.