Sitting of 29 June 1819

Preamble
The House, at two o'clock, went into a committee on the Grampound Bribery Indictments. After several witnesses had been examined, the chairman reported progress, and Mr. Wynn moved that the
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minutes of evidence be laid before the House. It deserved, he said, serious consideration, whether it would not be proper to proceed against a witness who had destroyed a material document pending an investigation

IRISH STILL FINES BILL.
The House being in a committee on this bill,
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, he objected to the whole of the measure. He had little doubt that the chancellor of the exchequer had been induced to abandon his first intentions, and to adopt the present bill, in consequence of the statement to him of some strong case; but he was quite at a loss to imagine what that case was. If the right hon. gentleman had founded his determination in this respect upon the Rev. Mr. Chichester's pamphlet, he must say, that the right hon. gentleman was in no way justified in coming to such a resolution, for that pamphlet was full of gross exaggerations, in many parts answered itself, and in others was overcharged and overwrought. Some of the accusations, indeed, were even futile and indecent. He could not believe that the chancellor of the exchequer had proceeded to the length of repealing the present beneficial law, in consequence of giving credit to such assertions; and if he had not, it was his duty to call upon the attorney-general to prosecute the author for a scandalous libel. It was not because the existing law had in some few instances been exceeded, that a bill like this was to be adopted, which would be most injurious to the trade and agriculture of Ireland. The present law had been very efficient in Donegal and the north of Ireland, in putting down illicit distillation. All enactments of this kind connected with the revenue were liable to abuse; but what he complained of was, that because a forcible speech had been made, and an exaggerated pamphlet written, a law which had produced so much advantage was to be abandoned, at the risk of restoring a system which it had taken years to destroy. The measure before the House would have the effect of injuring all the great distillers in Ireland; and through them a blow would be struck at the agriculture of the sister kingdom. The appeal made to the House against the fining system was, that the innocent suffered for the guilty; but by the new law, a very numerous police was to be established in the various districts,

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half the expense of which must be paid by the inhabitants of England and Scotland, and the rest by the district where the police was necessary. Surely this was most effectually making the innocent suffer for the guilty; for what pretence was there to call upon the empire at large to pay heavy sums, because ministers did not think it politic to continue a measure which had, in a great degree, put an end to illicit distillation? In truth, the present object of government was, to benefit the members for the north of Ireland, at the expense of the inhabitants of the whole kingdom. The hon. member then went on to explain more fully the evils that would arise from the encouragement of small stills: he contended, that small stills could only be productive when they were greatly multiplied, and that their multiplication would be the destruction of the rest of the trade. He concluded by further pressing the exaggerations in Mr. Chichester's pamphlet, and by repelling the attacks it contained upon the various excise boards.
Mr. Chichesterrose to vindicate his relation, the author of the pamphlet referred to by the last speaker, from the charges brought againt him. That rev. gentleman was anxious to be allowed an opportunity of proving what he had advanced, and he certainly felt that he laboured under the disadvantage of making assertions, as to severity and tyranny, that appeared on the first blush incredible.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdenied that he had made the statements of the pamphlet in question the grounds on which he had acted. It was obvious from the proceedings of the House for the last three or four years, that a deep feeling prevailed against the extreme severity of the law relating to still fines in Ireland. He allowed that that law had been in a considerable degree effectual in protecting the revenue, but the increasing indignation against it had induced him to look out for a substitute: he had endeavoured to find a middle course, and that middle course he flattered himself was the bill now before the House. He could not agree that it was established upon the principle of making the innocent suffer for the guilty, nearly so much as the law which it superseded. The country at large was chargeable with the burthen of the whole revenue system, and the objection applied as much to all
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laws connected with the collection of the excise, &c. as to the present. As, however, this bill was partly local in its operation, he had thought it just that half the weight should fall upon the district where the police was rendered necessary. He had turned his best attention to the subject of small stills: it was enveloped in difficulties, in consequence of the clashing of interests and the system of drawbacks and countervailing duties in Great Britain; and upon the whole he felt that it was a matter that ought to be deferred until another session. It might, however, be well to introduce a measure relating to small stills in the present, that it might stand over until the next session, and the opinions of all classes be ascertained.
General Hartsaid, that having been on the staff in Ireland, he had had an opportunity of knowing the truth of many facts similar to those detailed in the pamphlet alluded to. He pledged his own personal knowledge for the truth of four out of five of the cases of cruelty and seventy stated against the excise officers by Mr. Chichester. The still fines law had introduced poverty, demoralization, and misery, into a part of the country where they were previously comparatively unknown. He understood that since the crown land fining system had recommenced, 25,000 persons had embarked at Derry for America; and that preparations were now going on there which induced people to think the number would this year be greatly increased. The effect of the existing law was, to produce a total change in the character of many of the inhabitants of the north of Ireland. He complained that there was nothing in Ireland but a system of punishment; misery had been ameliorated in other countries— punishment had been nearly abolished even in the army—why should it be reserved for the people of Ireland alone? In Ireland the people knew nothing of the law but its severity. In Ireland there were good materials; it was to be lamented that these materials were not properly used. The people of that country were not treated with lenity. If they were encouraged; if their energies were called forth; the empire would reap the full fruits of a wise and liberal system of government, in the increasing strength and prosperity of the empire.
Lord Mount-Charlessaid, that unless the collateral measure for the encouragement of small stills should be passed,

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the present bill would not be attended with its full efficacy.
Sir H. Parnellthought it was through the fault or negligence of the civil power alone that any measure of this nature could be deemed necessary.
Lord Castlereaghrecommended the adoption of the repeal of the fining system, combined with the establishment of the police, and the postponement to next session of that part which related to small stills; with a pledge that it should be one of the first measures then taken into consideration.—Some further discussion took place; after which various clauses were proposed and discussed. On a clause for giving the grand juries the power of levying the still fines on town lands, the House divided: Ayes, 37; Noes, 17. The House then resumed.