Sitting of 9 June 1819

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS—PETITIONS FROM BARNSTAPLE.
Lord Ebrington and Mr. Bastardpresented two petitions, signed by near 700 owners and occupiers of land in the neighbourhood of Barnstaple, complaining of the depressed state of agriculture, owing to the great importations of foreign corn, and praying that a committee might be appointed to examine into the truth of their allegations, for the purpose of affording them such relief as the House might think proper. In presenting one of these petitions, lord E. felt it his duty to state, that among those who signed it, were some, of
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the principal gentry, and many of the most respectable clergy and yeomanry of the district in which he resided; and that he believed the sentiments expressed in it were those of a great majority of the landed interest in that part of the country. The truth of their allegation respecting. The advantage afforded to our, manufacturers by import duties and, prohibitions, could not be denied; and the corn grower naturally felt it hard that he did not enjoy, in like manner, an adequate protection against foreign competition. But look at the present state of our manufactures, and we should find that with all their advantages they were not less depressed than our agriculture, and that thousands of those employed in them were unable to gain their bread, even at its present reduced rate. If, indeed, we could have hoped that the appointment of a committee could have led to the diminution of any of those burthens which pressed so heavily on the land-owner and the farmer, he should have been most happy to have proposed it; but who could entertain such a hope after the late determination of the House, that it was necessary to impose an additional three millions of taxes on the people? Under all the circumstances of the times, he could not conscientiously recommend any further legislative interference with the price of corn. But in giving an opinion in which he had the misfortune to differ from so many of his constituents, he felt anxious to claim from the House for these petitioners, that attention to which they, were so justly entitled, as well from, their numbers and station in the country, as from the temperate and respectful terms in which they had submitted their grievances to parliament.
Ordered to lie on the table.

USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL.
Lord Althorpstated, that as the discussion on the usury laws was fixed for a near day, he wished, though friendly to the measure, that it should be postponed, on the ground, that it was impossible for a certain time, under recent measures, to calculate what the value of the currency, or what the rate of interest might be.
Mr. Serjeant Onslowsaid, that when he introduced the bill, he was aware of the difficulty of carrying the measure into effect under the present circumstances of our currency. He, however, had no option as to the time of bringing it forward;

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because as chairman of the committee, he had been instructed to do so. As to the principle of the measure, the more he considered the objections urged against it, the more strongly was he convinced that it must ultimately triumph. At the same time, on account of the present uncertain value of money, and the change about to take place in the circulation of the country, he admitted the propriety of postponing the measure.
The order was then discharged.

PETITIONS AGAINTST THE NEW TAX ON WOOL, &C.
Mr. Stuart Wortleyrose to present a petition from the manufacturers of Bradford, in the West Riding of York, against the imposition of any new tax on the importation of foreign wool. He was one of those who felt the necessity of that House providing taxes to meet the present wants of the state; but, while he admitted that, he was desirous that these taxes should not be laid on articles of the most material importance to our manufactures, and to tax which, went to cut at the root of the national resources. However highly he respected the petitioners, he should not have supported their prayer, did he not feel, that the view they took of the subject was correct. He should therefore, in every stage, oppose the intended imposition on foreign wool.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas inclined to think that there could be no sound objection to receiving any petitions against the resolutions. Even in cases where there was reasonable ground for doubting on the point of form, the House would rather be in favour of opening a door to petitions. When a committee of ways and means had once agreed to taxes, no petitions against them could be received; but as that was not the case in the present instance, he could see no objection to the petition being brought up.
Mr. Broughamthought this question of great importance, as it involved the privilege of petitioning that House. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman in thinking that the ground on which it was alleged a petition could not be received failed in the present case, since the measure had not been confirmed by a committee of ways and means; and here he should have stopped, had not the right hon. gentleman gone a step farther, and opened the question, whether, if these resolutions had been sanctioned by a committee of ways and means, that would
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have excluded petitions. As this case might arise afterwards, he thought if as well to attend to it now. From a precedent in Hatsel, it appeared that the right hon. gentleman was wrong. After stating the case, Mr. Hatsel said—"We see from the foregoing instance, that the House found it necessary to establish a rule; and they accordingly said they would not admit petitions against a money bill depending." The learned gentleman then quoted another precedent, which showed that petitions had been admitted against a resolution which had been agreed to in a committee of ways and means. This case, he contended, supported his opinion, and was perfectly in point, as it applied to a duty on wool, the subject then before the House. The petitions against the measure were so numerous, that it was not thought advisable to persist in it. Thus, then, although the resolution had passed through a committee of ways and means, petitions against it were not only received, but were so effectual as to prevent the passing of the measure. In 1727, a resolution having passed through a committee of supply, but the report not having been received, a petition was presented against it, and received.
Lord Castlereaghthought that every particular case ought to stand on its own merits. To the reception of the present petition, falling as it did within the admitted principle, there could be no objection. If any petitions should be presented between the concurrence of the House in the proposed resolutions in a committee of ways and means and the introduction of the bill founded on those resolutions, the same arguments would not be applicable. But, in his opinion, the best course would be to suspend any discussion on the subject until it should appear whether or not any such petitions were presented.
Ordered to lie on the table.

THE BUDGET.
The House having re-solved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that as the House in the committee on the report of the committee of finance had already entered at large into the consideration of the general situation of the country with respect to its finances, and had sanctioned, by the Resolutions to which it had agreed, the general principles on which he intended to ground the

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financial operations of the year, it only remained for him to submit to the committee the details of the plan by which it was proposed to carry them into effect. The House had also appeared to approve (although it had not yet confirmed by a distinct resolution) the measures he had proposed of rendering the sinking fund applicable to the public service to a certain extent, by means of a loan contracted with the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, under the sanction of the provision in the Sinking Fund act, commonly called Mr. Fox's Clause, and of making such provision as would render it unnecessary to resort for the future to annual loans. It was now his duty to describe the arrangements which it was proposed that parliament should adopt for the purpose of carrying that resolution into effect, as far as regarded the present year. In doing that, he should follow the usual course. He should, in the first instance, recapitulate the Supplies that had been granted and that it would still be necessary to grant for the service of the present year, and then State the Ways and Means by which it appeared to him that those Supplies might be most advantageously met; he should then proceed to an explanation of the intended arrangements with respect to the proposed taxes which he was desirous of submitting to the sanction of the committee; and lastly, he should point out those general measures for the regulation of the finances of the country, which appeared to him to be expedient, with a view to render the imposition of new taxes unnecessary, and to prevent any recurrence to loans, with the exception of a small loan for the next year, if it should be required for the purpose of the intended re-payments to the Bank of England. So much detailed information had already been laid on the table of the House in the reports of the committee of finance, and so much had been elicited by the late discussions in the House with respect to the various grants which had been made, and which it would be necessary to make for the service of the year, that on that point he should have little more to do than to refer the committee to those reports for explanation.
To begin with the first great branch of our expenditure—he meant the charges for the military service of the country—the committee were aware that the army extraordinaries still remained to be pro-
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vided for. Adding them to the branches of charge for the military service of the country which had already been voted, the total charge for the Army, Ordinaries and Extraordinaries, would be 8,900,000 l. The whole of the supplies for the Navy had been granted by parliament; they amounted to 6,486,000 l. For the Ordnance parliament had also voted 1,191,000 l. In the Miscellaneous Services a considerable number of items were yet to be submitted to the House; among which were the Irish Miscellaneous Services, and the grants for the poor clergy both in England, and Scotland; but adding the amount of those to what had been already voted, the total of Miscellaneous Services for the year would be 1,950,000 l. la conformity to the regular course of parliamentary proceeding, to. which he always wished to pay the attention that was due to it, he begged to state that, as there yet remained some supplies to be voted, it was not his intention at present to complete the Ways and Means, but to borrow from the sinking fund the sum of 12,000,000 l.; which would more than cover all that was yet to be granted. This mode of proceeding would not only preserve regularity, but would afford an opportunity of making those calculations which it might hereafter be necessary to lay before parliament.—The total of the Supplies for the year, as he had already enumerated them, amounted to 18,477,000 l. But to that must be added 1,570,000 l. for interest on outstanding exchequer bills, and 430,000 l. for a sinking fund on those exchequer bills; making in the whole a sum falling short of the sum of 20,500,000 l. stated to be necessary for the service of the year in the Resolutions already agreed to by parliament, namely, 20,477,000 l. To meet these charges parliament had already voted the annual malt duties, 3,000,000 l.; and the temporary excise duties 3,500,000 l.; and he should now propose to vote the loan contracted for this day, amounting to 12,000,000 l. The Lottery, 240,000 l.; and produce of the sale of naval stores, 334,000 l. The aggregate amount of those sums, exclusive of the sum to be raised by loan was, 7,074,000 l. It was obvious, therefore, that means must be adopted to provide the sum of nearly thirteen millions and a half, which was the difference between the total of the Supplies and the total of the Ways and Means, as he had hitherto described them.
He need not also recall to the attention

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of the committee, that the proceedings which had taken place with respect to the resumption of cash payments by the Bank of England, led to an arrangement for the repayment to that body in the course of two years, of the sum of 10,000,000 l. Of that sum it was necessary that 5,000,000 l. should be provided in the present year, and a further, sum of 5,597,000 l. would be required for the reduction of the unfunded debt, government standing pledged to that proceeding. For those purposes, it was proposed to raise two loans, each to the amount of 12,000,000 l. One of those loans had been contracted for that morning by competition. The other was to be derived from the sinking fund, the details of which he would submit to parliament on an early day. All that he would at present observe with respect to it was, that it was proposed in the arrangements relating to it to press as little as possible on the money market; and therefore to divide it into twelve monthly payments; those payments not to be equal, but to be to the amount of 900,000 l. a month in the July and January quarters, and 1,100,000 l. a month in the April and October quarters. By this arrangement, nearly 310,000 l. would be left monthly in the hands of the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, for the purchase of stock; exclusive of the Irish sinking fund, from which nothing would be taken. The loan of 12,000,000 l., by competition, and that to be derived from the sinking fund, added to the Ways and Means which he had already enumerated, made 31,074,000 l.; which, compared with the amount of the Supplies, viz. 20,477,000 l., left a surplus of 10,597,000 l. to be applied to the reduction of the unfunded debt; viz. 5,000,000 l. to the payment of the Bank of England, and the remaining 5,597,000 l. to the individual holders of exchequer bills. The comparative view of the whole of the Supplies and Ways and Means was therefore as follows:—

SUPPLIES.

£

Army

8,900,000

Navy

6,436,000

Ordnance

1,191,000

Miscellaneous

1,950,000

Total Supplies

18,477,000

Interest on Exchequer Bills

1,570,000

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Sinking Fund on Exchequer Bills

430,000

20,477,000

By reduction of Unfunded Debt

10,597,000

£.31,074,000

WAYS AND MEANS.

Annual Malt

3,000,000

Excise Duties continued

3,500,000

Lottery

240,000

Old Stores

334,000

7,074,000

Loan

12,000,000

Loan from the Sinking Fund

12,000,000.

£.31,074,000

He had already informed the committee, that a loan by competition for 12,000,000 l. had that morning been contracted for. He would now state the terms of that loan, and he was happy to congratulate the committee and the country that in consequence of the competition which had been excited, those terms were highly advantageous and satisfactory, and were indeed such as clearly to evince a reviving confidence and an increasing spirit in the money market. The terms-were as follow, viz. that for every 100 l. of the 12,000,000 l., the subscribers should receive 80 l. stock in the three per cent consolidated annuities (the interest on which would not commence until July, and was not to be retrospective), and 62 l. 18 s. 8d. stock in the three per cent reduced. Two other lists were offered—the one proposing to receive 65 l. 10 s. in the 3 per cent reduced, the other 65 l. 2s. 6d. The list preferred therefore far outstripped its competitors, and was consequently accepted; as, of course, the smaller, the sum which it was offered to take in the stock in which it was appointed that the biddings should take place, the smaller the charge both for capital and interest to the country. The Joan thus raised, and the Joan to be de-rived from the sinking food, he would regard as a joint loan in speaking of the stock created by the two operations considering them as a joint loan, the stock created for the 24,000,000 l. thus raised would be 32,304,000 l. in the 3 per cent stock taken partly in the consols, and partly in the reduced. The interest on this stock would be 1,029,120 l. the sinking fund 402,594 l.; and the charge

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for management 10,291 l.; making a total of 1,442,005 l. Here he thought it necessary to observe, that he had strictly carried into effect the provisions of the act of 1813, by which it was provided, that when the loan for the year exceeded the proportion of the sinking fund already established, a fresh sinking fund, to the amount of half the interest should be formed. This provision might perhaps have in strictness been dispensed with on the present occasion, as so large a proportion of the loan was to be applied to the purpose of reducing the unfunded debt; but he had felt, that when a loan was raised in time of peace, the operation of the sinking fund with respect to it ought to be strengthened rather than diminished; and he had accordingly complied with the provisions of the act of 1813.—With respect to the charge for management, he did not consider the Bank to have a right to any allowance for the management of that part of the loan derived from the sin king fund, but only for that which had been contracted in the money market. The loan obtained from the sinking fund would stand as stock in the names of the commissioners, and the interest would be applied by them in the same manner as that of other funds in their hands. He had already shown to the committee that the total charge on the loan was 1,442,005 l. The rate of interest to the subscribers was 4l. 5s. 9d.; amounting on an average calculation of three per cent stock to 69½. The total amount of charge to be paid by the public (the sinking fund included), was 6l. Os. 2d. per cent. He again congratulated the public on the terms of the loan, which he trusted would not be unfavourable to the adventurous parties with whom it had been negotiated, although the terms were so low that, with reference to the immediate price of stock, the bidding might not at first sight appear justifiable on the score of prudence. He hoped, however, that it would ultimately prove advantageous to all parties.
Before he proceeded to the other pacts of the subject, he wished to advert to the measures that he conceived would be necessary next year. As far as he could judge at present, the amount that it would be requisite to raise next year for the different branches of the public service would not exceed 11,000,000 l.; besides the 5,000,000 l. which it would be necessary to pay to the Bank of England, in
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order to complete the arrangement for the liquidation of 10,000,000 l. due to that body. Those two sums amounted to 16,000,000 l. If 12,000,000 l. were taken from the sinking fund, as in the present year, there would remain but 4,000,000 l. to be raised in the money market. That, sum was so moderate, that he apprehended there would be little difficulty or inconvenience in obtaining it, and he sincerely hoped and trusted, looking to the prospect of continued tranquillity which the present posture of affairs in Europe afforded, that it would be the last time they would have occasion to resort to the money market, during the existence of peace. And even that application might, perhaps, be avoided by proper management when the period should arrive. The next branch of the subject to which he wished to call the attention of the committee, was the consideration of the mode by which he proposed to realize the pledge that had been given to the stockholder to raise three millions in taxes, in order to make up, with the two millions of surplus revenue, a sum of five millions applicable to the reduction of the national debt. But, as he was on the general subject, he was desirous, before he proceeded further, to describe the present state of the unfunded debt of the country, and the situation in which it would remain after the arrangements of the present year were wound up. The existing unfunded debt was about 49,000,000 l.; the interest of the whole of which was provided for by votes of supply in the present year. The total amount of exchequer bills outstanding was 44,600,000 l.; that of Irish treasury bills, becoming payable in July next, 4,400,000 l.; making, as he had before observed, a total of 49,000,000 l.—These he proposed to replace by exchequer bills already voted to the amount of 20,000,000 l.y by a further vote of 16,000,000 l., and by 2,500,000 l. of Irish treasury bills, which would make, the total amount of the unfunded debt 38,500,000 l. Compared with the 49 millions of unfunded debt at present existing, there would thus be a diminution of ten millions and a half. It was his intention to propose, that the three millions which parliament had resolved to raise by taxation, should be applied to strengthen the consolidated fund, in order to enable it to support the charges of the loan of the present and of the last year, to which, thus reinforced, he thought it would be nearly equal. The

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amount of the charge on the last loan, was about 1,600,000 l.; that of the present loan 1,442,000 l.; making together the sum of 3,042,0002.; being an excess of 42,000 l. over the sum which it was proposed to raise. That sum would therefore be appropriated to meet the charges of the two loans; and as it was a matter of account, it was not very material that the appropriation should be exactly balanced. A little might be thrown into one scale or the other without inconvenience, although it would be well to allot to them, as nearly as possible, the same proportion.
He how came to the particular propositions which he had announced it to be his intention to bring forward. The first was the consolidation of the customs. It was impossible for him to go into all the items of which that head was composed; and it was the less necessary, as a schedule had been prepared which would give gentlemen the fullest information on the subject. It was only material to state the increase on the whole in the different duties already existing. The only important increase of duty, as he had already stated, was that in the duty on foreign wool; which was of considerable amount. The others were very minute in their rates; and the produce of the whole might be taken at 500,000 l. annually; In such a variety of articles, some would, of course, produce more, some less, than the estimate; but he saw no reason to think that the whole would not amount to the sum that he had mentioned; and whether some produced more and some less, was not material, as the whole was to be thrown into the general mass of the consolidated fund. The articles of minute detail, when the schedule to which he had alluded was printed, would be subject to the consideration of every hon. member who might feel interested in the various minute alterations proposed; and every variation of rate would be marked in it; for in some instances the duty was reduced, while in others it was increased.
He had mentioned on a former night, that a considerable advantage was expected from transferring the collection of several of the duties from the board of customs to the board of excise. These were, the duties on tobacco, tea, pepper, coffee, and cocoa nuts. On the last-mentioned article a higher rate of duty was at present paid than on coffee. For many years the duties on the two articles had been the same. But when it became an
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object to bring coffee into more general use, a difference was made in its favour; but it was now proposed that coffee, and the cocoa nut or chocolate nut, should, with reference to taxation, be placed on the same footing.—The remaining articles to be considered were tobacco, coffee, tea, and pepper. With respect to tobacco, the existing duties greatly varied. American tobacco paid an excise duty of 9¾d. a pound; Spanish, and Portuguese tobacco 2s. a pound; and West India tobacco 1s. a pound. To this was to be added the custom duty. It was intended to simplify all those duties, and to impose on all plantation and East India tobacco a duty of 4s.; on foreign tobacco, and on all foreign snuff, a duty of 6s. The produce of the increase of these duties he estimated at 500,000 l. Upon coffee, of the plantations, there was at present a duty of 7¾d. a pound. He proposed to raise it to 1s. a pound. East India coffee from 11 d. to 1s. 6d.; and on foreign coffee from 2s. 4½d. to 2s. 6d. From the increase of these various duties on coffee, it was estimated that 130,000 l. would be derived to the revenue. With regard to tea, he had already stated that he proposed to increase the duty 4 per cent, or from 96 to 100; from which also the sum of 130,000 l. was expected. The duty on pepper, which was at present 1s. 10½d. a pound, it was proposed to increase to 2s. 6d., from which it was estimated that 30,000 l. would be derived.
He had already mentioned, that by the transfer from the customs to the excise, very considerable expenses of management would be saved to the public. By placing all the duties on one article under the management of one board, that of the Excise, all the services of the officers of customs employed on that particular branch of the service would be saved to the public. A most essential convenience would also be afforded by it to merchants. He did not know any thing of which persons in trade more loudly complained than the multiplied regulations to which they were at present obliged to attend, and the necessity they were under of making applications on the same business at various places, and at different periods of the day. All that would now be remedied. But the principal advantage of the projected arrangement was this—that it would prevent the adulteration of the articles which it comprehended. Some of those articles were sold in small quanti-

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tics; oftentimes ground up; and it therefore became extremely difficult to determine whether or not they were genuine. By the transfer of these from the customs to the excise, a watch would be set over them to prevent their adulteration. It was desirable also that the collection of the revenue should be placed under the care of those who possessed the best means of exercising a vigilant superintendence over it; and the commissioners of the customs had no cognizance of the subjects of taxation after their delivery from the king's warehouses.
Two other subjects remained to be brought under the consideration of the committee. One, from which he expected to derive a very considerable addition of revenue, was the increased duty on malt. He had stated on a former evening, in his general opening, that he calculated on its producing 1,400,000 l., including its operation in Ireland—to which country indeed it was proposed that all the increased duties should extend, except that on home-distilled spirits. The sum which he had mentioned would, he conceived, be raised by the imposition of an additional duty of 1s. 2d. per bushel, or 9s. 4d. per quarter. When he first introduced the subject of the duty on malt, he endeavoured to show by calculation, that the additional duty ought to cause no addition of price to the public. In the opinion which he had expressed on that occasion, he had been confirmed by subsequent inquiry and consideration. He wished that every gentleman who took an interest in this subject would give themselves the trouble of consulting the evidence taken before the committee on breweries which sat last year; the report made by which, contained highly valuable information. He had taken the liberty on the occasion to which he had just alluded, of adverting to the evidence given before that committee by a very respectable gentleman, extensively engaged in the trade, and at that period a member of the House. Another very respectable gentleman thought that he (the chancellor of the exchequer) had mistaken that evidence. Since that period, he had had a personal communication and conference with the gentleman whom he had first mentioned—Mr. Barclay—in order that he might correct any error into which he had fallen; and he would now state to the committee the view which Mr. Barclay at present took of the subject. Mr. Barclay
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said, that the real price of malt generally averaged 4s. a quarter less than the price quoted. The price quoted last year was 81 s. a quarter, and that he had stated to the committee on the subject; but the general average of that year he believed to be 77 s. a quarter. So far the difference of the two statements certainly diminished the result of the comparison which he (the chancellor of the exchequer) had made between the last and the present year. Mr. Barclay also stated, that the average price of malt this year was 84 s. a quarter; but he allowed that it was of an inferior quality to the malt of last year, and that it was not so good for the purpose of brewing by 6s. a quarter. That 6s. ought, therefore, to be added to the present average price of malt (as compared with the average of last year) making it 90 s.. a quarter. But hops, which were last year 24 l. or 25 l. a cwt. had fallen to 10 l. The result, then, of the comparative statement between 1818 and 1819 would stand thus:—In 1818, the quarter of malt was 3l. 17 s., and the hops and other materials necessary to brew it cost 2l.. 2s., making in the whole 5l. 19 s. In the present year, the quarter of malt (allowing 6s. a quarter for its inferiority to the malt of last year) was 4l. 10 s.; but the hops and other materials necessary to brew it would cost but 18 s. 4d., making in the whole only 5l. 8s. 4d. It thus distinctly appeared, that the brewer gained a profit in the present year of 10 s. 8d. a quarter more than he did last year. He thought it but perfectly right that the public should participate in that profit; and it was obvious that the proposed duty being drawn only from the surplus profit of the brewer this year as compared with the last, ought not to affect the price to the consumer, which price, instead of being raised, ought, and he trusted would, rather be reduced; more especially if the approaching harvest should turn out favourably. He hoped, whatever might be the difference between the calculations of various persons, that the House would find the general result the same, and be satisfied that his position, that the present duty did not only not go to justify a rise in the price of porter, but was compatible with a diminution of price after a time, was fully borne out.
The only remaining article to which he had to call the attention of the committee, was the proposed increase of duty on home made spirits;—he meant spirits dis-

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tilled in England; for it was not his intention that this tax should extend either to Scotland or to Ireland. The new duties he meant to impose were at the following rates: The duty on malt wash he meant to advance 3d. per gallon; or from 1s. 9d. its present rate, to 2s. The duty on sugar wash he proposed to advance to 2s. 6d.; and that on wine wort, or wine wash, to 3s. 6d. The produce of those increased duties he calculated at 500,000 l. If the effect of these last duties should be to diminish the consumption of spirits, and increase that of the wholesome produce of the brewery, no man would more heartily than himself rejoice at a change that would be so conducive to the health and morals of the people. Some gentlemen concerned in the distilleries, had however represented to him, that this measure would give the foreign distiller an advantage over them, unless they were protected by some countervailing measure. On that subject, he had not yet come to any decision; but he might hereafter deem it expedient, to come forward with some additional proposition, which, while it afforded protection to the home-trade from foreign competition, would probably at the same time, augment the revenue of the country.—Having now gone through the various topics which he had wished to press on the attention of the committee, he had only to add, that, if on any point he had not been thoroughly understood, he should be happy to afford any explanation that might be required.
Mr. Grenfellwished for some explanation, with respect to the 11,000,000 l. alluded to by the right hon. gentleman in his statement, relative to the loan of next year.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexpressed his readiness to explain that point to the hon. gentleman. He had already said, that he hoped that during the continuance of peace, the present would be the last time, that he or his successors in office should have the unpleasant duty of calling for a loan or additional taxes, except perhaps in the next year, for a loan of a very limited amount. In the present year, the sum of 13,000,000 l. was necessary to balance the deficiency of the income of the country, as compared with its expenditure; but he hoped that in the next year, partly from a reduction in the charges on the unfunded debt, and partly from other causes, that the deficiency would not exceed 11,000,000 l. To that
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must be added the 5,000,000 l. to be paid to the Bank of England. If, therefore, as in the present year, 12,000,000 l. were to be next year taken from the sinking fund, 4,000,000 l. would be all, as far as he could now see, that it would be necessary to raise by way of loan in the money market, in order to complete the ways and means of the year. There was no reason to apprehend, that after that period, it would be necessary to trouble parliament or the country with a subject so painful as loans and new taxes. He trusted that having made the present effort to place the finances of the country on a permanent footing, and to prevent the necessity of any recurrence to fresh expedients or burthens, hon. members would return home with the consciousness of having done their duty; and he trusted that although some momentary feeling of distaste might prevail with respect to particular taxes, their exertions would be rewarded by the approbation of their constituents, who would feel that parliament had watched over their interests with vigilance and wisdom, and had adopted the only course which was calculated to be productive of permanent good. He would now conclude by moving his first Resolution: viz. "That, towards raising the Supply granted to his Majesty, the sum of 12,000,000 l. be raised by way of annuities."
Mr. Grenfellwished to preface the few observations he should make by thanking the right horn gentleman for the very clear statement he had that night made; indeed it was but justice to say, that the right hon. gentleman's details upon financial subjects were remarkable for their perspicuousness. The right hon. gentleman had observed in the outset, that the discussions connected with this subject within the last few days had necessarily narrowed the view it was necessary for him to take of the finances, in bringing forward what was called the annual budget: it had certainly been his (Mr. Grenfell's intention to have taken some part in the proceedings of yesterday and the day before; but he yielded to those who seemed to have a prior claim. He agreed that it was not only desirable, but with reference to the best interests of the country, most expedient that it should possess a surplus of income beyond the expenditure; that it should possess, in short, a sinking fund. Assuming that the revenue would maintain its present level,

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he considered it something like a proud situation for Great Britain, that the House should know, that the country and Europe should know, after the mighty exertions we had made (without now entering into the question of the fitness of the late war, or of the necessity for such expenses in conducting), after the immense sacrifices of treasure to which the nation had submitted, that it was at this moment, after a general wind-up of its concerns, in possession of a real unequivocal surplus of income beyond its expenditure of not less than two millions. He also agreed, that it was most fit that that surplus should be carried further than the existing amount of two millions—that it should be increased by the two modes, of reduced expenditure and additional taxes, to five millions. After the country should thus be placed in an attitude to command respect from all the world, he should feel most happy if, by economy, by the proposed regulations in the collection of the revenue, and lastly, by the operation of compound interest, those 5 millions were raised to 8 millions of surplus. That such should be the case, was not only of importance as affecting the national debt, but of infinitely more consequence in a moral point of view. It had been said, and said truly, that while we were without a surplus, the country was not in a situation to defend itself from sudden hostility; with a surplus of two millions, it would have more power to assume a defensive position; 5 millions would still more strengthen it, and with a surplus of 8 millions, he should be glad to know if there was any nation of the world (though God forbid that he should insinuate that there existed at present any such design) which could make an attack upon Great Britain with the remotest chance of success. With respect to the loan, he, for one, was desirous of bearing his testimony of approbation to the whole plan this year adopted by ministers for raising a surplus: as far as his observation went, it was a plan that gave universal satisfaction, excepting to a few who, from a perversion of understanding, obvious enough and easily explained, had taken it into their heads that a loan of 80 millions would be much more advantageous to the nation than one of 12 millions. There was one part of the subject not adverted to, but upon which he was peculiarly sensitive; and though it appeared in itself trifling, it might produce results of
1014
the utmost value: he alluded to the generally understood refusal of the Bank of. England to give the loan contractors and the public that accommodation which for the last 25 years it had afforded, by making a proportion of advance on the instalments of the loan. He was very glad that they had not consented to continue this assistance; first, because, unless he was much mistaken in his prophesy, the public would find that it could do without it with the utmost facility; and, secondly, because the transaction exhibited the corporation of the Bank of England in its true and proper colours. When he spoke of this corporation, he begged to be understood as having no reference to the conduct of particular individuals, because he had reason to know that there were among the directors some who had divided the court on this question, and had done their utmost to resist the determination of the majority. Of the acts of the corporation, however, he could only judge as they presented themselves, and. it appeared that it had peremptorily refused to continue the accommodation it had so long given. Yet the directors must forgive him for asserting, that there was something of littleness and low-minded-ness, something of pique and spleen, in this refusal; it was an opposition to the government and the country, wholly unworthy of persons professing to take such an interest in the concerns of the nation. It was, perhaps, natural that the corporation should feel some degree of resentment against government, which, after 25 years of subserviency, had at last broken the fetters by which they had been so long and so injuriously bound; and he was not surprised that the directors now came forward and considered such an attempt as a resistance to their high and mighty authority. It was not to be wondered that four and twenty merchants, men engaged in the pursuit of gain, should be a little intoxicated with the power they had for a series of years exercised, and they might be allowed to feel a little chagrin and soreness that their power was now at an end. They had hitherto been anxiously consulted by ministers in all exigencies regarding the finances, and no doubt they thought it a little hard that those to whom (though not quite disinterestedly) they had given their advice and assistance, now turned against them. Perhaps even they might feel some portion of resentment at the apparent ingratitude

1015
of their protegés, the first lord of the treasury and the chancellor of the exchequer. It would be easy to go more at large into this point, but he would merely congratulate ministers that they had at length effected their emancipation from a species of tyranny as disgraceful to the government as injurious to the best interests of the country. With respect to the proposal for raising three millions by taxes, he was certainly disposed to think that this was not the most judicious moment for making the experiments it would have been more advisable to have deferred it until next year, when it might be known whether the existing pressure upon and stagnation of trade had been removed, and after the operation of the plan suggested by the Bank committee had been ascertained. He took it for granted, that further opposition to the principle would be ineffectual; and as to the taxes themselves, every gentleman in a future stage would have an opportunity of expressing his opinion; at present he did nor wish to commit himself upon a subject that he had not duly considered. He could not sit down without expressing his regret, that in consequence of the temporary indisposition of his right hon. friend (Mr. Tierney), he had been the first to reply to the chancellor of the exchequer: that indisposition, he was happy to add, was only temporary, and most probably his right hon. friend would be found at his post to-morrow.
Mr. Manningwas not much surprised at what had just fallen from the hon. gentleman on the subject of the Bank of England, though, considering the many opportunities he had sought to make attacks upon that establishment, it might have been spared upon the present occasion. The terms the hon. gentleman had employed, had certainly been far from courteous, but such at the same time as he was in the habit of employing. The compliment which had been attempted to the directors as individuals, he was not for one at all disposed to accept, when it was asserted that in their corporate capacity they had been guilty of a total dereliction of duty, and with acting in hostility to government from pique, spleen, and littleness of mind. He denied the charge most unequivocally. The hon. gentleman had talked of information he had received regarding the opinions and conduct of the directors in their court, on the subject of advances to the subscribers
1016
to the loan. Now, he could only have obtained his information from one of the members of the court, and that member could not have communicated it without a breach of duty and of confidence. On the part of himself and his colleagues, he would assert, that whatever had been the result of their deliberations, they had not been actuated by any thing like pique or animosity towards the existing government; they felt themselves superior to such paltry motives. The directors had been told, that they were not to be politicians: that they had nothing to do with the state of the country, or its interests; and that they ought to confine themselves to their books and banking business; but in the particular in which the hon. gentleman had blamed the Bank, he ought rather to have applauded it, at least if he wished to be consistent with himself. Why had they refused to grant the usual accommodation to the contractors, but that they might preserve that control over their issues for which the hon. gentleman and his friends had so long contended? If the directors wished to have this complete control, it was impossible that they could undertake to make the usual advances, without knowing the limits to which those advances might be required. Suppose, for instance, the loan had been 30 millions, and the Bank had been called upon to advance 9 or 10 millions. Suppose, too, an unfavourable harvest, or any other important external circumstance, over which they could have no influence, were to raise the price of gold to 4l. 15 s. or even to 4l. 10 s. per oz., what then might not have been said against the Bank? Would not the hon. gentleman have been one of the first to charge the directors with imprudence for not preserving a due control over their issues, when they knew that a bill had passed to compel them, at a certain time and according to certain rates, to pay their notes in gold? It was due to the great establishment of which he was speaking, that it should stand right in the eyes of the House and of the country; and once for all, he repeated, that the conduct of the directors, on the particular question referred to, had nothing to do with the point now before the committee. He was quite willing to bear his share of responsibility for the decision at which that body had arrived, and he would not attempt to screen himself by any explanation of the motives by which he had been actuated. He assured the hon. gen-

1017
tleman that it would be much more to his credit if in future he would abstain from employing such epithets as he had that night applied to the Bank of England, and such as those with which, week after week and day after day, he had fatigued the House. He again insisted, that public considerations only had influenced the Bank: at whatever conclusion the House might arrive, it was the anxious desire of the court of directors to comply strictly with the directions of parliament.
Mr. Pearseinsisted that the attack made upon the Bank was wholly unwarranted and unprovoked. Whenever the conduct of the directors had been alluded to, the hon. gentleman had constantly indulged himself in a violent strain of invective, unjustified by any facts he was able to adduce. If this practice were continued, of course the House would pass its own judgment upon it. He would not throw back upon the hon. gentleman any of the gross terms he had used. Whether the hon. gentleman were actuated, in his uniform abuse of the Bank, by any feeling of pique or revenge, he could best determine.
Mr. Mellishdespised the compliments paid to him at the expense of his colleagues. The information on which the hon. member had spoken, must have been derived from a breach of confidence on the part of one of the directors, and if he knew who that gentleman was, he would be the first to move a vote of expulsion against him. He could assure the House, that the Bank had no pique against ministers, and he would add, that that body had performed their duty in a; manner which entitled them to the thanks of the country. The hon. member for Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo), found fault with the Bank directors for not having attended sufficiently to the interests of the proprietors; the hon. member for Marlow (Mr. (Grenfell), on the contrary, said, that the Bank had too many bonusses, and that the public ought to share in the profits. How were the directors to act so as to meet the wishes of both gentlemen.
Mr. Grenfellsaid, that the information he had received had been communicated by a Bank director, in the open street, in the presence of three or four gentlemen, and without any intimation of secrecy being required.
Mr. Protheroesaid, he was confident from the character of the Bank directors, that they were utterly incapable of pique
1018
or little-mindedness; he believed that they rather felt a pride in giving relief to the distresses of the country. The circumstance alluded to would, however, introduce greater independence of the Bank on the part of government. The observations made by the hon. member (Mr. Grenfell), respecting the advantages of placing the finances of the country in a situation that would command respect from other countries, indicated a truly British feeling. It had been frequently asserted, that ministers were deterred, from a sense of their weakness, from bringing forward the measures which were necessary for the security of the country. As he had opposed temporary expedients, he considered himself bound to give his support to a sound and vigorous system of finance. The measures adopted for the restoration of a metallic currency had his entire concurrence. The measures for providing a real and effective sinking fund, he considered as founded both on political and financial justice. They were calculated to put the country in a situation to deter insult, and to prevent war.
Sir J. Newportsaid, the Bank had been justified in using their discretion in adopting measures to enable them to resume cash payments. With respect to the measure proposed, he thought it was ill-advised to add to the taxation of the country at present, as the people were not in a situation to bear additional burthens. The tax on malt he understood, was to extend to Ireland and Scotland, while the tax, on spirituous liquors was confined to this country. This would have the effect of injuring the morals, and lessening the comforts of the people of Ireland, as it would drive them to the use of spirits which would be cheap as compared with malt liquor so taxed. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would perceive the expediency of encouraging the use of malt liquor instead of spirits, as it was materially conducive to the morals and happiness, of the people of Ireland.
Mr. Bennetobserved, that the country had some time ago been promised a sinking fund of 21 millions, and a total abolition of the war taxes. Now, however, it was found that they had only a sinking fund of two millions, and that seven millions of war taxes were still continued. They ought to remember the promises made in 1316. It was then said, that the revenue of the ensuing year would amount

1019
to 49 millions, whereas it turned out to be no more than 44,593,000 l. The revenue of the last year had arisen to 48,416,000 l. but what security had the country now that next year's revenue would not decrease as that of the year 1816 had done? In 1817, there was a deficiency of five millions in the promised amount of the revenue. How then could the promised revenue of any future year be depended on? Was this, he would ask, a time to impose new taxes on the people? He had no hesitation in saying, that distress and misery, and crime resulting from this misery, were more prevalent now than they had been at any former period. In every district nothing was, to be found but poverty and wretchedness. It was impossible to say what would be the result of this situation of things. They might force the taxation, but they must do it on one of two grounds—either they must take from poverty what poverty could not spare, or else those taxes must be made up from the poor-rates. As to the malt tax, he should give his opinion upon it when that question came to be discussed. If these new taxes were ultimately carried, it must be because we were at the commencement of a new parliament. No member supporting such a measure at the close of a parliament could face his constituents without receiving that treatment which his conduct merited.
Mr. Mansfieldsaid, that if new taxes were necessary on account of the financial state of the country, and if the lower orders were exhausted and depressed, the House had a splendid opportunity of introducing, not an income tax, but an absolute property tax—a tax upon the fundholder and the landlord, a tax upon themselves and upon the wealthier part of the community. He thought it infinitely better for the House to say, "Come and lay on a modified property tax of which we shall feel the burthen," than to impose any other tax. But if gentlemen would not have a property tax, he thought the taxes proposed were lenient.
Mr. J. P. Grantsaid, if he understood the right hon. gentleman rightly, the sinking fund of Ireland was not to be made applicable to the purpose of a loan. The sinking fund of that country was greater in proportion to its stock than the English sinking fund was. In consequence of this, the commissioners found it difficult to invest their money; an act was
1020
therefore passed, allowing the transfer of English stock to Ireland. This act having passed, there was such a remittance of money from Ireland as to raise the exchange between Dublin and London from 8⅓ to 14 percent. If the English sinking fund was to be reduced by 13 millions and the Irish sinking fund was to remain untouched, it was obvious that the speculation in the Irish funds would raise the sinking fund of that country in proportion to its stock, the consequence of which would be, the raising the price of Irish stock, much above that of English stock. He recommended it to the consideration of the chancellor of the exchequer, whether the stock of both countries should not be placed on an equal footing. He was opposed to any new taxes, as he conceived this was not the proper time to impose them. What prospect had the country now that the revenue would remain at it was, any more than they had in 1816? If they looked to the amount of the revenue in January 1819, they would find that the increase in the customs was caused by a system of speculation and overtrading, from which the country was now suffering and must continue to suffer for a considerable time.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the Irish consolidated fund was sufficient to meet the immediate charges upon it in time of peace, and therefore it was unnecessary to apply the sinking fund of that country to the purpose of a loan. It was necessary, after the contributions made by Ireland to allow her to recover herself a little; besides, this trading in the Irish funds could not be to a great extent. When there was a loan of 30 millions here, no more than 4½ millions had been transferred to the Irish funds, therefore the present loan of 12 millions could not be supposed to affect those funds to any great extent. He saw no grounds for taking a gloomy view of the revenue of the country: he had stated on a former occasion that there was a perceptible diminution in the revenue in the last quarter; but since that period he had received accounts of payments having been made which, on the whole, turned the balance in favour of the present year.
Sir R. Wilsonsaid, that if he wished to see a public commotion in this country, he would support, not only the resolutions before the House, but all the measures of his majesty's ministers. Though the

1021
chancellor of the exchequer conceived he was secure in his taxation by the holy alliance in front, and a strong army in his rear, the public creditor might, in the end, he willing to exchange these securities for the old system of the country. It was overwrought taxation in France which produced a convulsion, which lopped off two-thirds of the public debt, and though the successor of that system boasted that the guillotine was a mint and produced money by that expedient, he was at last paid in his own coin. When the French armies entered Prussia, their generals raised money where the Prussian financiers thought nothing was to be found, but the people repaid themselves by the punishment of their oppressors. It was possible to lay on taxes, but if they did not take warning from decrease, decline, and discontent, a convulsion would ensue. He attributed a great part of the expense thrown on the public, on account of the colonies, to improvident management. He had been attached to the corps which captured the Cape of Good Hope. They found that colony, with a well paid army of 4,000 men, an improving city embellished with new works; a public treasury well filled: and all this had been done by the Dutch governor Jansens, without a shilling from the mother country for several years, and while the trade of the colony had been intercepted; yet that colony was a constant drain on this country. In Ceylon a war was carried on, which would cost the country one million and a half. That morning advices had been received from Lower Canada, that the House of Assembly had refused to vote the supplies proposed to them stating, that the internal improvement of the province was the first duty of the legislature, and that "that duty would be most efficiently performed by reducing the overgrown bulk of the civil list of the province, the progress of which in every species of public improvement, seemed to have been tardy, in the direct proportion of the speed with which the expenses had accumulated." He was happy that the assembly had done so; if they had not, the expenditure of which they complained would have destroyed all independence, and not a word against the government would have been heard, except through the mouths of a "factious opposition." Feeling as he did the injustice and impolicy of the new taxes, he would object to every proposition respecting them.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, the more he heard of the new taxes, the less he liked them, though he had but little doubt that if imposed, they would be paid; but they would be paid in part out of the poor-rates. He was inclined to believe, that notwithstanding the untoward state of the country (which he could not help thinking would not long continue), the revenue would keep up to the 54 millions, at which it was estimated by the finance committee. The moment however, which had been chosen for the imposition of new taxes, was, in his opinion, as unfavourable as could be pitched upon; and though he thought it would be desirable to have a sinking fund of 5 millions, he did not think the terms of the loan would have been more unfavourable, if there had been one of only two millions. On the subject of economy he had heard a great deal, but he was still of opinion, that great and important reductions might be made. He had not been able in the present session to discuss the army estimates, but he thought those of the present year as objectionable as the celebrated estimates of 1816, about which so much had been said at that time. If he lived until next year, and had a seat in the House, he would make it out to the satisfaction of the House, that those estimates, were extravagantly large, and ought to be reduced.
Mr. Alderman Woodopposed the new taxes, and said, he was surprised that the landed interest supported them. Though the tax on foreign wool had been held out as a bribe to them, that tax would not alter the price or prove any protection to the home growers. The malt tax would be a much greater loss than the wool duty could prove a gain to the agriculturist. Farms were now scarcely to be let at the old rents. In Suffolk, in the midst of a bailey country, 700 acres could scarcely be let for 350 l. a year, and. in some parishes the poor-rates were a guinea in the pound.
Mr. Ricardosaid, he had already opposed the grant of 3 millions towards a sinking fund, because he did not wish to place such a fund at the mercy of minister, who would take it whenever they thought that urgent necessity required it. He did not mean to say that it would be better with one set of ministers than another; for he looked upon it that all ministers would be anxious, on cases of what they conceived emergency, to appropriate it to

1023
the public Use. He thought the whole thing a delusion upon the public, and on that account he would never support a tax to maintain it. He would admit that some means should be resorted to for liquidating the public debt, and in this he agreed with the hon. member for Leicester that a great sacrifice should be made; but he could not go with him in thinking, that that ought to be a property tax. That would be attended with the same bad effects as the other plan. He would, however, be satisfied to make a sacrifice; the sacrifice would be a temporary one, and with that view he would be willing to give up as large a share of his property as any other individual. [Hear.] By such means ought the evil of the national debt to be met. It was an evil which almost any sacrifice would not be too great to get rid of. It destroyed the equilibrium of prices, occasioned many persons to emigrate to other countries, in order to avoid the burthen of taxation which it entailed, and hung like a mill-stone round the exertion and industry of the country. He therefore never would give a vote in support of any tax which went to continue a sinking fund; for if that fund were to amount to 8 millions, ministers would on any emergency give the same account of it as they did at present. The delusion of it had been seen long ago by all those who were acquainted with the subject; and it would have been but fair and sound policy to have exposed it. On the subject of the loan he had nothing to object. He gave credit to and thanked the chancellor of the exchequer, for his good management within the last two or three days. [a laugh]. It was, he conceived creditable to him to have effected the loan on such good terms, when it was considered that only a few days back the funds were at 65. But though he gave credit to the right hon. gentleman for his plan in one respect, it was but fair to his hon. friend (Mr. Grenfell) near him, to say that this was the advice which he had given long ago. An hon. Bank director had said that he (Mr. R.) was inconsistent with his hon. friend. He was not bound to agree in every opinion which his hon. friend might hold; but he did not think he was so inconsistent as was said. He would admit, that he had complained of the Bank not having divided their profits. The Bank had made profits no doubt. It was the duty of the directors to do the best for the proprietors; and it was also
1024
the duty of government to make as good a bargain for the country as they could. He could not approve of the Bank making presents to government, though he could not blame those to whom they were given, for making the most of their contracts with them.
Mr. Grenfellwished to know, whether the sinking fund hereafter was to be kept at work at its old nominal amount, or only to the amount of the real surplus of the revenue above the expenditure? He wished also to rebut the idea, that the appropriation of the sinking fund, as in the present year, which was authorized by Mr. Fox's clause, was any departure from faith to the creditor. The event mentioned by his hon. friend might illustrate this. When if was known that the sinking fund was so applied, the stocks rose from 65 to 69—a pretty clear proof that the stockholder did not consider it a detriment to his property.
Mr. Ricardowished to ask, whether it was to be understood that in the next year, as there would be 11 millions to be raised for the service of the year, and five millions to be paid to the Bank, there would be taken, as in the present year, 12 millions from the sinking fund, leaving the rest to be raised by way of loan?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not wish to pledge himself as to the course to be taken in the next year; but so far as could be foreseen, 11 millions would be required for the supplies of the year, and 5 for the repayment to the Bank. It would then be in the power of parliament to take 12 millions from the sinking fund, leaving 4 millions to be raised by loan, or any other means.
The first Resolution was agreed to. On the third Resolution, that the usual sum be raised by lottery, a member said a few words, expressing a hope that the chancellor of the exchequer would not press this resolution. This expression was received with cheers from the opposition, and the Resolution being put, the committee divided: Ayes, 117; Noes, 49."

List of the Minority.

Althorp, viscount

Calvert, C.

Anson, hon. G.

Calthorpe, hon. F.

Bentinck, lord W.

Calcraft, John

Beaumont, T. W.

Calvert, Nic.

Buxton, T. F.

Carhampton, earl of

Baring, sir T.

Curwen, J. C.

Burnett, J.

Denman, Thos.

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Duncannon, visct.

Birch, J.

Evans, W.

1025

Gipps, G.

Newman, R. W.

Grant, J. P.

Newport, sir J.

Gordon, Robt.

North, Dudley

Graham, Sandford

Osborne, lord F.

Grenfell, Pascoe

Parnell, sir H.

Honywood, W. P.

Pelham, hon. G.

Hume, Jos.

Phillips, C. M.

Hurst, Robt.

Rickford, Wm.

Hutchinson, hon. C. H.

Ricardo, D.

Lubbock, sir John

Ridley, sir M. W.

Leake, Wm.

Tichfield, marq.

Lamb, hon. G.

Williams, W.

Lambton, J. G.

Wilkins, Walter

Lyttelton, hon. W. H.

Wilson, sir R.

Macleod, R.

TELLER.

Martin, John

Brougham, Henry

Merest, J. D.

On the resolution for laying an excise duty of 1s. upon every bushel of malt; and 1s. per pound on tobacco or snuff, the same not being Irish,
Mr. Goochsaid, it might, perhaps, seem very inconsistent in him, who voted on a former occasion for the financial resolutions of the right hon. gentleman, now to oppose one of the principal taxes suggested by him. Such, however, was his intention, and he should do so from this motive—that the landed interest of the country had a right to complain of the manner in which their grievances had been considered, and their petitions received. They had been told, that their interests were sufficiently protected already by the Corn bill. But from that opinion he dissented entirely: the Corn bill was a dead letter in fact, and no protection whatever. The landed interest demanded only what every other body of men had—protection; a protection against the foreign farmer, who could afford to bring his corn to market at 40 s. cheaper than they could. Not only was that corn bill no protection, but fresh taxes were now to be imposed upon them. The chancellor of the exchequer had told them, that this duty on malt would affect neither the land owner nor the consumer. But the fact was, that if it did not press, upon the landholder, it necessarily would upon the poor, the great body of whom were supported by the poor-rates—another, circumstance materially affecting the agricultural interest.
Mr. Buxton,after having ably vindicated the conduct of the brewers from, the charges which, on former occasions, had been brought against them, observed, that he would now offer a few words on the proposed taxes. There were some points in the plan on which he differed
1026
from all the gentlemen behind him, and others upon which he differed from all the gentlemen before him; while there were others upon which he differed perhaps from all the gentlemen in that House, as well as from every individual in the country. His opinions might be sneered at or condemned, but whatever opinion he conscientiously deemed to be correct, he would not hesitate to assert. He had, then, no scruple to say, that he thought the present a very fit occasion for the imposition of new taxes. The people had been very much amused and delighted by the events of the war; nay, they had been led to believe, that the war had contributed to improve the condition of their commerce and manufactures. Therefore, as the day of reckoning was now come, he wished so see such an effect from that reckoning, as should serve to guard the public mind against the mischievous impression, that war was a good and peace an evil. He was anxious, in fact, that the people should be sensible of the evils that followed from war, whatever might be its occasional triumphs or temporary advantages. As a friend to peace, he was desirous for such an impression, in order that the people might become universally adverse to war. But, still, he could not concur in the propriety of imposing these taxes, which bore exclusively on the poor, especially where the object was, to establish a sinking fund; for the establishment of such a fund, was meant merely for the benefit of the rich, and nothing could be more iniquitous than to tax the poor in order to secure the property of the rich.
Colonel Wodehousedisapproved of the proposed tax upon malt, not from any selfish consideration, but from a conviction of its general impolicy, and particularly of its tendency to discourage the growth of corn.
Mr. C. Calvertdeclared his impression that no taxes could be selected more likely to have an oppressive operation upon the lower orders than those proposed. There was, for instance, but comparatively little consumption of beer among the rich, and as to the tax upon tobacco, upon whom would that operate? The tax upon tea was also mentioned. He hoped, however, that the right hon. gentleman would not attempt to extend that tax to the lower priced teas, which formed such a material article of subsistence among the poorer classes. But the fact was, that

1027
out of the three millions of proposed taxation, no less than 2,400,000 l. would be found to bear alone upon the poorer classes. Here the hon. member entered into a vindication of the conduct of the brewers, observing, that the price of beer was reduced upon the removal of the war tax upon malt, but that the brewers were under the necessity of raising the price again, from malt rising from 63 s. to 95 s. per quarter, and hops from 7l. to 13 guineas per cwt.
Mr. Huskissonsupported the proposed plan of taxation, and adverting to the statements of the hon. gentlemen who so warmly advocated the cause of the brewers as to the effect of competition among that body in reducing the price of beer, observed, that it appeared from those gentlemen that the competition alluded to was proposed at a private meeting of the competitors, to consult their common interest. The right hon. gentleman maintained that the interest of agriculture would not be affected by the tax upon malt, and that agriculture was amply protected by the act prohibiting the import of foreign corn, but under certain circumstances.
Mr. George Lambwould oppose all the proposed taxes, as oppressive to the lower orders, though not in an equal degree. He had been alluded to as having put a question to the chancellor of the exchequer some time ago, as to his intentions about imposing a duty on malt. He had been induced to put that question, not by the brewers, not by dealers or publicans, but by a large class of his constituents, who were drinkers of beer, and who foolishly thought that a tax on it would raise the price of the article. The answer was, that the chancellor had no intention of imposing new taxes, but it left an impression on his mind that if he did impose new taxes, a tax on malt would be one of the first. The chancellor of the exchequer had rested his opinion on the evidence of a gentleman before the brewers' committee, but it would require a great deal more than that evidence to convince him that we could tax an article without raising its price. Could the right hon. gentleman exert such influence over the brewers as would prevent them from throwing the tax on the consumer? He well remembered that when the war duty was abolished, they agreed that they would not reduce the price, but would improve the Quality of the article. And
1028
what security had the public, that although they might not increase the price, they would not now deteriorate the quality? He protested against all new taxes till every source of economy and retrenchment was exhausted.
Sir J. Sebrightsupported the taxes generally, but professed himself hostile to the tax on malt, as it affected agriculture.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that if he understood the chancellor of the exchequer rightly, the tax was to fall upon the brewers principally, and not upon the growers of those commodities which the brewers used. That tax amounted to more than 1,400,000 l.; and yet this tax was not to cause any increase in the price of beer! The result of it was to be, that the price was neither to rise nor fall. The grower was not to suffer by it; the consumer was not to buffer by it; all the pressure was to fall upon the severe and rapacious brewer. The right hon. gentleman had brought forward and eulogized upon all occasions the testimony which had been given by Mr. Barclay. He had no intention to make any objection to those panegyrics, because he believed them to be perfectly well-founded. Indeed, he intended to allude to his evidence in support of the view which he himself was inclined to take of this subject: that gentleman, whom he was proud to call his friend, had said that the effect of this tax would oblige him to pay 45,000 l. out of the flourishing concern over which he presided. If this were really the case, it would entirely absorb all the profits which he ought to derive from the talent and capital which he expended in his business. But did any man in his senses really believe that the whole of this expense would fall upon the brewer? The brewer would repay himself for the capital which he advanced, and the expense would thus fall upon the manufacturer in the first instance, though ultimately it would press most severely upon the grower of barley. One of the arguments which had been used by the chancellor of the exchequer was, that no relief had been obtained by the consumer, in consequence of the arrangements made in 1816, because the price of beer had not been reduced in value. That argument had been ably answered by an hon. friend of his, who had defended the profession to which he belonged, with a warmth of feeling that did him the highest honour. He had said that the price of beer would

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have fallen still more considerably than it then did, had it not been for an unfortunate dispensation of Providence, which followed close upon the arrangement to which he had previously alluded: though the duty of 16 s. had been repealed by parliament, and though the brewers had at the same time made a reduction of 1s.6d. in their beer, the badness of the subsequent harvest, and the high price of grain resulting from it, rendered the reduction of a very short duration. Though these causes had not ceased to operate, the chancellor of the exchequer thought that he could now lay a tax on malt without increasing the price of beer; he could not help denominating this scheme one of the most visionary which had ever entered into the brain of man. He would beg leave to tell him, that the fall in the price of beer had been owing to the taking off the malt war tax, and that the rise had been owing to the badness of the harvest. Half the malt tax duty was now to be reimposed; find yet they were to be told, that no diminution of the consumption of the article, and no rise in the price, were to occur in consequence of it. But how long would this be the case?—till the present extraordinary importation of barley had ceased. The best method which he knew of protecting our agricultural interests, was not by levying a tax upon the grain of our own farmers; especially as it was a staple article in certain of our counties; and if it would not ruin, would cause embarrassment little short of ruin, to those who inhabited them. Surely barley was sufficiently taxed already. It now paid nine millions of taxes. When this was the case, was the imposition of such a tax fair in point of justice, or politic in point of revenue? The chancellor of the exchequer had no pocket authority, which he might quote on all occasions, to prove that the tax on spirits would not raise the price of that article. He was glad of it, because it would be a great benefit to the community to raise the price of spirits by taxation, giving, however, such a time to the lower orders to be weaned from that pernicious beverage (to which, indeed, their late misery and distress might have addicted them), to such a height as would put it out of their power to purchase them. He did not say this with the intention of taking this money out of the pockets of the poor, but with the intention of making them return to the good, sound, wholesome, con-
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stitutional beverage of the country—beer, made of malt. Upon all these grounds, he must strenuously oppose, not merely this tax, but all the others. They were all equally opposite to the principles of sound political economy, and were each as injudicious as the malt tax.
Mr. Cokedeclared himself to be against all new taxes until an experiment had been made of what might be done by retrenchment. Besides, of all the taxes which could possibly have been devised, the malt tax was the most oppressive. He had no doubt that the government had received the memorial which had been sent from the county of Norfolk, complaining of the distress of the agriculturists; and yet with this memorial before them they had come forward with a new tax which would press most heavily upon his constituents. The government ought to lower and not increase this impost. In that case, the consumption of barley would be increased, and the interest of the agriculturist in consequence improved. He should oppose any tax upon wool, tea, coffee, &c.; but he should oppose with still greater vehemence so unjust and impolitic a tax as it was now proposed to lay upon malt.
The committee then divided upon the malt resolution: Ayes, 198; Noes, 97: Majority, 101.

List of the Minority.

Allen, J. H.

Ebrington, visct.

Althorp, viscount

Fellowes, hon. N.

Anson, hon. G.

Fellowes, W. H.

Buxton, T. F.

Fazakerley, Nic.

Barham, J. F.

Fitzgerald, rt. hon. M.

Baring, sir T.

Fitzgerald, lord W.

Barnett, J.

Gooch, T. S.

Becher, W. W.

Gordon, Robt.

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Graham, Sandford

Birch, J.

Griffiths, J. W.

Brougham, H.

Guise, sir W.

Calvert, N.

Gurney, R. H.

Calcraft, John

Honywood, W. P.

Calvert, C.

Hume, Jos.

Cavendish, H.

Hurst, R.

Carter, John

Hutchinson, hon. C. H.

Crickitt, R. A

King, sir J. D.

Coffin, sir I.

Lamb, hon. G.

Coke, T. W.

Lambton, J. G.

Coke, T. W. jun.

Latouche, Robert

Curwen, J. C.

Lefevre, C. S.

Davies, T. H.

Lloyd, sir E.

Denman, T.

Lyttelton, hon. W.

Duncannon, visct.

Maberly, John

Dundas, hon. L.

Maberly, W. L.

Dundas, hon. G.

Macleod, R.

Dundas, Thos.

Milton, visct.

Dundas, C.

Martin, J.

1031

Merest, J. D.

Ridley, sir M. W.

Mills, G.

Ramsden, J. C.

Monck, sir C.

Robarts, A.

Newman, R. W.

Robarts, W. T.

Newton, W.

Rowley, sir W.

Newport, rt. hon. sir J.

Russell, R. G.

North, Dudley

Rumbold, C.

O'Callaghan, J.

Sebright, sir J.

Osborne, lord F.

Sumner, G. H.

Pitt, W. P.

Smith, W.

Portman, E. B.

Smith, hon. R.

Primrose, hon. F.

Stewart, W.

Parnell, sir H.

Stuart, lord J.

Pelham, hon. G.

Wodehouse, E.

Philips, G.

Webbe, Ed.

Phillips, C. M.

Wharton, J.

Powlett, hon. W.

Wilkins, W.

Prittie, hon. F. A.

Wilson, sir R.

Price, R.

Wood, ald.

Pryse, Pryse

Waithman, Robt.

Rickford, Wm.

TELLER.

Ricardo, D.

Grant, J. P.

Two other divisions took place, upon motions made by Mr. Bennet, that the chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again; the numbers on the first were, Ayes, 57; Noes, 191. The numbers on the second were, Ayes, 40; Noes, 185. Mr. J. P. Grant warmly opposed the new taxes, as bearing with peculiar severity on the lower classes of the community. On the several resolutions respecting tea, tobacco, pepper, coffee, and British spirits, he proposed amendments, the object of which was to confirm the existing duties. The amendments, after some discussion, were all negatived without a division; and the original resolutions were agreed to.