Sitting of 26 January 1819

BANK OF ENGLAND.
Mr. Grenfellsaid, he had often addressed the House on the subject to which he was about to allude—a Subject of deep interest, and one which demanded all the wisdom of the House. Notices had been given of different motions since the opening of the session, connected with the question he was about to submit to their consideration. The first was from his right hon. friend (Mr. Tierney), the second from the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer; and notice had been given by an hon. and learned friend of his (sir J. Mackintosh), on the subject of the fabrication of bank notes—an inquiry of deep public interest in every way that it could be considered—interesting as it affected national credit, and doubly interesting as it affected the happiness, the character, and the morals of the people. It would

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be of course extremely ill-timed in him to enter into a subject which happily was in the hands of men so capable of treating it with superior knowledge and ability: it was not his intention. The only object he had in view in calling the attention of parliament to the subject was, to show that the corporation of the Bank of England had, during a period of twenty-two years, accumulated an enormous mass of wealth at the expense of the public, without the performance of any public service that could entitle them to that exclusive benefit—that they had accumulated wealth during a shorter period, and to a greater amount, than any body of men had been ever able to do, in any banking or commercial country, since banking or commerce had been established in the world. The first great benefit this corporation enjoyed flowed directly from the Bank Restriction bill, an act which was first passed in the year 1797, and from that period down to the present, the Bank had been relieved from the necessity of paying in cash, and had therefore been exonerated from the performance of its pecuniary engagements. For twenty-two years, twenty-four merchants of the city of London, as the directors of this corporation, had, without check and without control, the unlimited power of issuing a forced paper currency on the country, for their own exclusive benefit. The public did not participate in any way in the advantage derived from this establishment; and this corporation, uncontrolled and unlimited, had the power of issuing notes to any amount, without any expense to them but the trifling expense of paper and the payment of their clerks. There was, he should add, one other item in their expenditure—one, he supposed, of considerable amount, from the frequency of the case—he meant the numerous prosecutions carried on by the Bank, from one extremity of the kingdom to the other, against those unhappy wretches who were almost every hour brought to the bar of criminal justice, on the charge of forging notes. This practice had of late years been carried to so alarming an extent, as to call forth, from every quarter, the loudest murmurs of disapprobation—it forced itself upon the attention of parliament, and demanded an immediate inquiry.—The next great source of profit and advantage to the Bank was the enormous extortions which they had committed in their various contracts with the
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government. By means of their exclusive credit, the corporation of the Bank had been enabled to meet the wants of the minister, but they had done so on terms enormous and highly injurious to the country. These matters, he said, had been frequently mentioned—they have been met on the part of the Bank, sometimes by assertion, often in silence, and never by disproof. He concluded by moving for —1. "Accounts of the total weekly amount of Bank notes and Bank post bills in circulation, from the 1st Jan. to the 25th Jan. 1819. 2. Of the amount of Bank notes in circulation on the 7th and 12th of each month, from Jan. 1818, to Jan. 1819, both inclusive. 3. Of the highest and lowest aggregate amount of bank notes, including those of every kind, at any one time in circulation from the 1st Jan. 1818, to the 25th of Jan. 1819, both days inclusive. 4. Of the weekly amount of bank notes in circulation of the value of 5l. and less, from the 1st Jan. 1818, to the 25th of Jan. both inclusive. 5. Of the market prices of standard gold in bars, of Portugal gold in coin, standard silver in bars, and Spanish dollars, or pillar pieces of eight, with the course of exchange with Hamburgh, Lisbon, and Paris, from the 1st Jan. 1818, to the 25th Jan. 1819. 6. Of the balances of cash in the hands of the Bank of England, on the 1st and 15th days of each month between the 1st Jan. and 15th December, 1818, inclusive, resulting from payments under the head of customs, and of all other branches of the public revenue, stating the average balances of the year, made up from the said days. 7. Of the balances of cash in the hands of the Bank of England, on the 1st and 15th days of each month, between the 1st Jan. and 15th Dec. 1818, inclusive, resulting from the postmaster-general's account with the Bank, stating the average balance of the year, made up from the said days. 8. Of the balances of cash in the hands of the Bank of England on the 1st and 15th days of each month between the 1st Jan. and 15th Dec. 1818, inclusive belonging to the different departments of the government, including the balances of the accountant-general of the court of chancery, and stating the average balance of the year, made up from the said days. 9. Of all other public balances not particularly specified in the three preceding accounts with the bank of England; on the 1st Jan. 1819;

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distinguishing the amount under each head respectively, and stating the aggregate amount of the whole. 10. Of the total amount of unclaimed dividends, including lottery prizes, in the hands of the Bank on the 1st and 15th days of every month in the year 1818 inclusive. 11. Of the Exchequer bills and Bank notes deposited by the governor and company of the bank of England, as cash, in the chests of the four tellers of his majesty's receipt of exchequer, on the 2nd Jan. 1818, and on every 28th day subsequent to that period, down to the 1st Jan. 1819; distinguishing the amount of all such Bank of England notes as exceeded in value l,000 l. each, known at the Exchequer under the title of special notes, and stating the average balances of the year, made up from the said days. 12. Of all allowances made by the public, to the Bank, or charged by the Bank against the public, exclusive of the charge for the management of the public debt, for transacting any public service in the year 1818; describing the nature of the services, and the amount charged thereon in the said year, and including the sums paid to the Bank under the denomination of Charges of Management. 13. Of the advances made by the Bank of England to government on land and malt exchequer bills, and all other securities, on the 10th Jan. 10th April, 10th July, and 10th Oct. 1818, and on the 10th Jan. 1819."
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that it was not his intention to object to the production of the accounts. The information they contained might be usefully laid before the House, preparatory to the discussion which was to take place. With regard to the hon. gentleman's comments, and the justness of the inferences which he had drawn, a better opportunity would soon present itself for the consideration of them.
The motions were then agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhaving moved the order of the day for the house resolving itself into a Committee of Supply,
Sir Robert Wilsonrose, and addressed the house nearly as follows:—An imperative sense of duty could alone prevail over a variety of personal considerations, and those feelings which a new member must suffer from, who presumes to address, for the first time, a house so replete with talent. I must, therefore, throw myself
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on the favour of the house, and trust it will extend that indulgence to me which it has so kindly granted to others whose abilities stood so much less in need of it.—I am afraid that I shall not obtain the approbation of many of my own friends, and certainly shall incur the severe animadversion of those who, knowing the state of public credit and the dangers of our paper system, still seek to protract the evil day till they may be beyond the reach of its consequences—a conduct the more criminal, as they know the catastrophe must be augmented by the protraction.—I do not, Sir, pretend to discuss the subject of finance, as a professor of arithmetic—I am little versed in that branch of mathematics; nor do I presume to be a political economist—I have read, like most members of the house, many of the best writers on that subject, and particularly the work of a member of this house, which is stated to be, by competent judges, the most intelligent that has appeared; but, Sir, my studies have been chiefly directed to those statistical tables which represent real life—to the books of the poor-rates, lists of bankrupts, offenders, debtors, original population, and generally to that aggregate catalogue of distress, crime, and discontent which pervades this country, notwithstanding this house has been assured by ministers, that the country was enjoying "a repose of calm and peaceful joy and gladness," language which must be felt by the community to be the language of mockery. Those studies have assured me, that the people can no longer pay the taxes imposed on them for the current expenses of our establishments, and the interest of that 800,000 millions of debt which has been well said elsewhere, represented property we once had, not property we now possess: That they cannot pay that interest for which their industry has been mortgaged, and not only their industry, but that of their children's children, to the latest period of this country's existence under the present system,—a mortgage so severe, that every thirty years, above 1,300 millions must be raised from the people, without reducing the original debt one single shilling. I know it will be said, that much of that money, will return to the country, and revolve so as to afford employment and subsistence to the labourer; and so it will; bat there is a great difference between the income

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which flows direct from original sources through natural channels, and that which passes through the absorbing strainers of government. There are some who will say, that if the taxes be reduced, wages will fall in proportion; but our own history, and what is passing before our eyes in France and America, show that the condition of the people is improved in the proportion that taxes are lightened, and fiscal laws do not interfere with the settlement of natural prices. In one case, the body politic presents a cheerful healthy appearance, full of all the energies of life; in the other, a body weak and emaciated, with diseased and swoln limbs. Adam Smith has said, that a country was poor or rich, as the community enjoyed amusements, comforts, and the necessaries of life. How poor then must be this country, where the poor cannot, by their industry, command even subsistence, as is proved by the eight millions of annual poor-rates levied for their additional support. Another writer, who has illuminated the obscurity of the Middle Ages, by the lights of philosophy and truth, and conferred honour on the present by the spirit of freedom and benevolence which is diffused through his work, acknowledges that he is obliged to draw the painful conclusion of the actual poor being in a deteriorated condition. He ascribes partly this deterioration to an increase of population, and a disproportionate increase of the fruits of the earth; but many pretend that agriculture and population have kept due proportions, and that at all events, the effect could be but partial. Another writer, whom I have no right to panegyrize, has indeed been the true prophet. He has seen years ago through a finance telescope events which were not anticipated by others. My own conviction, then, is, that the present ministers have brought the country into that state, as not to make it an object, whether the Bank can pay or not in cash the notes which it has issued on its own account, but how the insolvency of the country can best be met without ruin to every capitalist, and danger to all the existing institutions of the country. My own belief is, that all capitalists of every description must consent to great sacrifices; but God forbid these sacrifices should be made whilst those men were administering our affairs, who brought this country into this state of calamity! Who but a madman or an idiot would pay
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the debts of a professed gambler or spendthrift, to prevent further embarrassment? Why, if these ministers could make more loans in consequence of re-established public credit, the whole system of profligate expenditure would be revived. We should see an armament sent to America, not to redress presumed outrages against justice, but to extirpate republican establishments,—another sent to India, not to take a single rood of ground in a country where we never showed a spirit of aggrandizement, usurpation, or avarice, but to subdue all independent states, collect all revenues, and occupy all territory between the Indus and the Caspian;—another army would be sent to France to teach a moral lesson to the French ministers for baffling the plans and rejecting the catechism of the holy alliance; and if Europe, Asia, Africa, and America did not provide employment enough for our men and money, our enterprising navigators might then have discovered some territories in the Polar Basin to be manured with our blood and treasure. But even if those honourable friends of mine were in office, who gave the splendid example of resigning place and emolument, rather than abandon or coquette with a measure of great vital interest; who, had they remained in office, would have saved the country from many annual millions of taxes, for which military glory is but a sorry compensation; for what nation, civilized or barbarous, has not had that day of glory? and which carried to excess has not been ruined by it? If those men were in office, who would have saved the country from unconstitutional alien bills lawlessly enforced, from infamous suspension bills, and no less infamous indemnity bills, from spies and informers, and the disgrace of having them eulogized in this house and acknowledged as associated partners of the government;—who, in short, would have saved it from all the acts which ministers have criminally done, and criminally left undone—not even to these hon. gentlemen would I give, or rather leave, the power of mortgaging the people's industry, by making previously great sacrifices, to restore public credit. These sacrifices should only be made when there was the security of a reformed parliament; a parliament, the duration of which should not exceed the duration of that terra prescribed by the Revolution of 1688—a parliament reconstructed by a national extension of the elective franchise; which should not present the serio-comic scene

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which was exhibited in this House, when the members of a certain county were summoned to the table—which should restore to Scotland the rights and advantages of the representative system, and by diminution of election expenses and other regulations, should, in the fair legal sense of the term, be a full and free representation of the people. I shall, however, vote for the proposed motion of my right hon. friend, when it is brought forward; for I think inquiry is useful, and that the public not only expects it, but have a right to demand it. I also wish as early as possible to see a remedy applied to that paper system which impoverishes the people, generates crime, and is to be as it appears maintained by pernicious examples of sanguinary punishment, notwithstanding the adverse feeling of the nation; and in which feeling I must affirm, after the letter read in this house the first clay of the session, the regent himself participated. I shall however not oppose the supplies; I have no wish to embarrass his majesty's government by that measure. I only hope some member better qualified will take up the subject I have brought to the notice of the house.
Lord Glerawleysaid, he did not rise to quarrel with the hon. knight for the expression of his political sentiments, though he must dissent from his statement of what he called facts. The hon. knight asserted, the amount of the national debt to be eight hundred millions. In making this calculation he seemed entirely to have forgotten, that the redeemed part had reduced the debt to five or sis hundred millions. The hon. member wished most unfairly to throw an odium and a burthen on government which they had no right to be called upon to bear. How was it possible for them to avoid the expenditure which was complained of, when they were imperatively called upon to make those great exertions, which had ultimately established the glory of the country and the peace of the world? Had the income tax been continued a few years longer, the embarrassments now so loudly declaimed against, would have been by this time put upon a different footing.
The house then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply.

DR. HALLORAN'S PETITION—STATE OF CONVICT SHIPS.
Sir T. B. Martinexpressed his regret that be was not
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present last night, when an hon. member opposite had presented a petition from a certain convict, styled doctor O'Halloran. The statements in that petition, and in the speech of the hon. member who presented it, had, he understood made a great impression upon the House, and he hoped that, as being at the head of the department of the transport board that regulated the vessels in which convicts were embarked, he would be allowed that opportunity of removing the wrong impression which he understood was made on the House last night. The hon. gentleman had animadverted with great force upon the mortality which he described as characterising the mode in which convicts were conveyed to Botany Bay. Now, so far from this being the fact, he held in his hand a document, which altogether refuted this statement, and he remembered, long before the last convicts were shipped, to have mentioned the fact to lord Melville, with much satisfaction, as it redounded to the credit of the whole arrangements under the superintendence of his own board. Since the 1st of January, 1816, 6,409 convicts had been shipped, and of this number only 53 had died on the passage; the mortality was, therefore, only at the rate of one in 112. If, as the hon. gentleman had stated, the convicts were stowed and crowded together in the most noxious and unwholesome manner, was it likely that such a state of health would have been preserved as the statement he had made verified? The hon. member had also said, that six convicts were crammed into a space of six feet in breadth for their sleeping birth. This was not the fact; for the space allotted for the convicts sleeping birth was equal in breadth, for each man to that assigned to the sailor, or soldier on board the same vessel. It was, in fact, larger than that allowed to men in his majesty's service. He had himself, when at sea, been very well satisfied with the same breadth, and he had two sons now who made no complaint of having no greater sleeping room allowed them. There were men who had been forty-five years at sea, who never had a greater space to lie in, and who yet enjoyed excellent health. He would now read the recent returns of the arrivals in Botany Bay, which would set the hon. gentleman's statement of mortality in the convict ships at rest:—In the Fame transport, with 200 convicts, only two had died; in the Bensley, 200 convicts, none died,

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and all arrived in excellent health; in the lord Melville, 102 convicts, three had died, and the convicts on their arrival gave a public acknowledgment of the humane and excellent treatment they had received on the voyage; the Shipley, 125 convicts, none died: the Armourer, 180 convicts, none died; the Larking, 250 convicts, two died; the Lady Castlereagh, 300 convicts, none died; the Batavia, 219 convicts, one died; the Neptune, 286 convicts, none died; the Baring, 300 convicts, one died. He called on the House to recollect that it was of this last ship, when preparing for her present voyage, that the hon. member had spoken. She was now commanded by the same officers and surgeon, as on her former voyage, and he believed there never were men of more humane dispositions. The surgeon, Dr. Reid, had been continued in the ship, at the recommendation of sir R. Keats, in consequence of his acknowledged skill and humanity. These were facts, and he trusted they furnished a satisfactory answer to the hon. gentleman's statements, who seemed to have taken his information from the convicts without refering to any of the officers for a corroboration of what he had heard.
Mr. Bennetsaid, that after what had fallen from the hon. gentleman, he hoped he would receive the indulgence of the house, while he clearly and distinctly stated the authority on which he had given his statement last night. He lately went down to visit the two transports then about to sail with convicts. In one of them he understood there were 300 men; in the other 440. He went on board one of them in consequence of a communication from Dr. O'Halloran. The place in which he saw the doctor was 12 feel square, and 21 persons, he was told, were stowed in it. He saw three persons lying in one of the cribs which he had described, and they told him that three others were also crammed into the same sleeping place. Three men, who stood by, avowed that they were the persons who slept in this contracted space. He was glad, indeed, to find that this information was not correct: but he was told he should have gone to the captain for information; he meant to have had the statement of the captain, in the presence of the convicts, but the bustle of getting water on deck and preparing for sea, prevented his having the means of procuring infor-
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mation from that source. He had complained to the captain of the offensive and noxious state of the lower part of the vessel in which such a number of poor wretches were confined, and the captain informed him, that as soon as he pot to sea, he would have the means of cleansing that part of the ship from the filth which covered it. The captain implored him not to leave the ship under the impression that the convicts alone were crowded to excess, "Go," said he, "into my cabin, and see how we are crowded—go to where the passengers are placed, and see how they fare—go among the sailors and soldiers, and see if they are not as bad off as the rest." This showed the crowded state of the vessel, and the consequent sufferings which poor wretches must endure, who were unused to a sea life. What he had said last night, respecting the mortality on board the Surrey, remained uncontradicted. She had lost 50 (one fourth of her number) in crossing the line. It was said, that these unfortunate men had the same space allotted to them as the soldiers and the sailors, but was there not this difference in the situation of these patties that the soldiers and sailors could go up at night on deck, to avoid the inconvenience below, in warm latitudes? The wretched convict could claim no such indulgence, but must remain in the crowd below, exposed to all the sufferings of such a situation. He was not surprised to hear that men in such a situation, rushed in despair upon death, in the attempt to extricate themselves from so cruel a bondage. He had been himself, when in the army, on board a transport in a warm latitude, and he could feel what must be the situation of beings, who had no alternative but to remain locked up below, inhaling the effluvia of such a situation. For his own part he had only to say, that in this, or any other transaction of a similar kind, in which he took a part, heaven knew he had no other object upon earth, in publicly mentioning the circumstance, than an earnest desire to expose and prevent the infliction of unnecessary cruelty. He never had or could have, but one object, and that was to attempt, so far as in the short life of man could be attempted, to diminish the sum of human misery. [Loud cries of "Hear, hear!"]
Sir T. B. Martinobserved, that half a ton more than was usually allowed to soldiers and sailors, was allowed to convicts,

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in the arrangements as to their conveyance, in order that their accommodation might be attended to. There were means of ventilation also adopted; and he begged leave to read an extract from one of the last letters which had been received from Botany Bay. The extract went in fact to state, the grateful acknowledgments of some of the convicts to their captain for his unwearied assiduity to their comforts, and the peculiar concern which had been manifested towards their health.
Sir Isaac Coffinsaid, that he last night, from the statement of the hon. member, pronounced the treatment of these convicts as being most scandalous. He had gone to the navy board this morning to make inquiries into the truth of the statement, and the result of his inquiries, was, that the hon. member had been imposed upon. In candour, therefore, he felt himself bound to withdraw the expressions he had used last night, and to express his belief, from the information he had Since received, that the convicts were as well treated as was consistent with the situation of such persons.

CARE OF HIS MAJESTY'S PERSON BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of the bill,
Lord Hollandobserved, that he had not yesterday thought it necessary to make any observations on this measure, as explained by the noble secretary of state, nor, as he understood it now, had he any very strong objection to urge against it. Since he had come down to the House, he had, however, perused the bill, and there was a part of it, which, for the sake of propriety and consistency in their lordships' proceedings, required in his mind some consideration. He was perfectly willing to acknowledge, on the ground of parliament having recognized the principle, whether right or wrong, that the care of the king's person should be separated from the executive government, that the trust could not be better disposed of than it was by this bill. But, besides the separation of the trust, the bill involved another principle, which had, when the question was before discussed, been the subject of much objection with many noble lords: he meant the establishment of an imperium in imperio, by giving to the person who had the care of the king's person an extensive patronage. It was then strongly contended, that no patronage ought to accompany the trust, and that all the appointments should be made by the executive government. With respect to this point, some explanation was necessary; for it appeared that their lordships were now not only called upon to recognize this principle, but were left without any information as to the extent to which it might be carried. What offices it was intended to continue on the Windsor establishment, and who the persons were by whom those offices were to be tilled, did not appear; but it appeared on the face of the bill, that the duke of
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York was to have the power of nomination and removal, with respect to all offices on that establishment, with the same exceptions which existed in the case of the queen, and which he thought were very properly made. It was, perhaps, intended that the measure for fixing the establishment should originate in another place; but he thought that their lordships ought not to pass the present bill, until they ascertained the nature of the patronage which was to be vested in the duke of York. He had no objection to the object of the bill, but wished, for the sake of regularity in their lordships' proceedings, that some explanation should be given on the point to which he had alluded.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he had no objection to give the explanation which, the noble lord required. The noble lord had observed, that though it might be a question, whether it was expedient to vest the executive government and the care of the king's person in one individual, yet that the principle of separation being recognized by parliament, he thought the duke of York a very proper person for the trust proposed to be vested in his Royal Highness by this bill. Now, if this was the view which the noble lord took of the subject—if the appointment made by the bill appeared proper—it seemed that the conclusion to be drawn was, that all the patronage, be it more or less, which belonged to the office, ought to be vested in the individual named in the bill, who must have the superintendence of the establishment. The question of the extent of the establishment was at present not before their lordships; but he had no difficulty in saying, that it was under consideration, and would soon be the subject of a proposition in another place. It was intended, that the establishment should undergo a reduction, and the proposition which was to be made would be founded on a principle of reduction; but as to the details of that reduction, they had no connexion with the present bill. They would come first before the other House, and would, in the usual course of business, be brought under the consideration of their lordships. In the mean time, all that he contended for was, that whatever that establishment might be, it ought, if their lordships agreed to the present bill, to be placed under the control of the duke of York.
Lord Hollandsaid, he could not accede
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to the principle so broadly laid down by the noble secretary of state, that all the patronage of the establishment ought to be vested in the person to whom the care of the king's person was intrusted. That principle had not been sanctioned by parliament: indeed, precisely an opposite principle had been established, by vesting patronage in others, as appeared from the cases which had been expressly excepted. With regard to the extent of the establishment, he was one of those who never thought its maintenance proper, and it would be for the noble lord hereafter to explain how it happened that reductions which could be made in 1819 were totally impracticable in 1818. One set of persons might think it right that the care of the king's person should be separated from the executive government; another might be of opinion that this was not right; others again, who thought the separation right, might still desire that all the patronage should be vested in the executive government. If it should be the opinion of their lordships that an establishment ought to be maintained for the purposes of splendor or comfort, the question whether the whole patronage of that establishment ought to be vested in the hands of the individual to whom the care of the king's person was intrusted, ought still to remain open to their consideration. Here, however, they were pledging themselves to the affirmative of that question, by directly recognizing the principle, that the whole patronage was to be vested in the duke of York. It certainly was not probable, supposing the nature of the establishment to be such as he could approve, that he should object to the patronage being in the hands of his Royal Highness; but he objected to the course taken with respect to the present bill, that it was an irregular and inconvenient mode of proceeding. Was it regular, before their lordships were informed what the nature of the establishment was to be, to determine that, great or small, the patronage should all be vested in one individual? He thought it would be much better to expunge the clause which contained this provision, and insert it in the other measure which was to originate elsewhere. Their lordships would then have the opportunity of considering both the principle and its application, when the other bill should come before them.
The Earl of Liverpoolconceived that the noble lord had taken an erroneous view of
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the subject, if he supposed that any new question could now arise. No difficulty could possibly arise with respect to the nature of the establishment in contemplation, as it could not in any case extend beyond that which was now in existence. If, therefore, the noble lord was prepared to say that he had no objection to the individual named in the bill having a certain patronage, he already knew the full extent to which that patronage could be carried. If it should be the opinion of parliament to appoint the duke of York, he thought that the same powers which had been vested in her majesty, as custos personœ, should devolve on his Royal Highness. The noble lord had observed, that it might still be a question, whether the patronage of the establishment ought not to be vested in the executive government; but that question had been determined when the act on which this bill was founded passed. He presumed that their lordships had not changed their opinion on that subject. At any rate, the objection of the noble lord was not well founded, since he already knew the full extent of the establishment, and had been informed that a reduction was to be proposed. Whatever change it might undergo would only have the effect of making it less, and thereby rendering it more consistent with the views which the noble lord entertained on the subject.
The bill was then read a second time.