Sitting of 22 January 1819

HARROWGATE ROADS PETITION.
Mr. Lawson, in rising to present a petition, said, that it was with considerable diffidence; he put himself forward on the present occasion. He who was then, for the first time, trusting his virgin bark, which was scarcely sea-worthy, to the tempestuous ocean of political discussion, must naturally feel great timidity at the hazard of the trial. But still the importance of the trust which was confided to his hands, and the conviction that he was bound to use his best efforts to discharge it faithfully, gave him confidence; and, therefore, he unhesitatingly embraced the opportunity of taking the sense of the House upon the petition—the first which was presented to this parliament—which he held in his hand. "Nay," continued Mr. Lawson, "start not, Mr. Speaker, at the sight of parchment, nor imagine, from what I am now about to present, that you are about to have such an accumulation of petitions as daily poured in upon and covered your table in the last parliament. This is a petition for true and radical reform—a reform, not, Sir, of the House over which you so honourably preside—but, of a Yorkshire turnpike-road [A laugh]. The petitioners, it is true, have, like other reformers, gone upon a levelling system; but upon other grounds; they wish that the trustees, who form as well the representative as the executive power, may have an extension of their authority. Their prayer, however, was not for economy and retrenchment—they sought not to have their burthens lightened—no; but, anxious for the public good, they wished to have their burthens increased. Mr. Lawson went on to show, that though this in name might be considered a private matter, yet, from its importance, it ought to be considered as a public question. It prayed for a bill to improve the line of road leading to Harrowgate—the metropolis of a northern county; and to increase the toll to defray the expense to be incurred. The fashionable and gay place of resort to which this road led, rendered its improvement a matter of public interest. The Speaker himself could attest the importance of the place, having visited it. He also could give his testimony to the necessity of having the prayer of the petition complied with; and it must be evident to all, that it was of advantage to

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the public, that there should be such a road leading to this place of resort for fashion as well as for health, as might prevent the delicate nerves of its visiters from being too much shaken in their passage to and from it.
The petition was referred to a committee.

WAR IN INDIA.
Mr. Canningsaid, he rose to give notice, that on an early day he should submit a motion of thanks to the marquis of Hastings and the officers and men composing the army in India, for their great and persevering bravery in conducting the late war. He gave this early notice, that there might appear no delay on the part of the House in testifying their approbation of the conduct of the noble marquis, and the bravery of those who acted under him. At the same time, he should not fix the day, till after the papers relative to the whole of the business were before the House. He did not wish, however, that his motion should be in any way a political one; but he thought it would be much better that the House should be put in possession of all the necessary documents connected with the war, before his motion came on.

CORN LAWS—RUTLAND PETITION.
Sir Gerard Noelpresented a petition from the landholders of the county of Rutland, setting forth, that this country possessed, within itself, sufficient means of producing an abundant supply of corn of every description, for all its inhabitants, without having recourse to the aid of other countries. They prayed that a select committee might be appointed to examine into this matter; that they might be allowed to give evidence before such committee; and in case only of their being able satisfactorily to establish the premises, that such protection might be afforded to them as was enjoyed by the manufacturers, merchants, and traders, by the navigation act. The hon. baronet said, that though he presented it at the request of the parties, he was not prepared to go further in its support.—Ordered to lie on the table. Shortly after,
Mr. Calcraftobserved, that a very important petition had been presented by one of the members for Rutland. It purported to come from a certain number of persons belonging to the class of agriculturists, as they were generally called; and its prayer was, to be allowed
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to prove their case before a committee of the House. Their object was, to obtain an increase in the importation price of corn. With the sentiments which he had always entertained, and still continued to entertain, on this subject, he had looked upon the attempt which appeared to be in contemplation with equal concern and alarm. As he now saw the vice-president of the Board of Trade in his place, he thought it right to take that early opportunity of requesting to know the opinion of government, with regard to any further change in the corn laws, and sincerely trusted that it was not favourable to any measure of such a description.
Mr. Robinsonthought it was almost necessary for him to apologise for not having, when the petition alluded to was presented, expressed his sentiments at once on this serious and most important question. As he had inadvertently lost that opportunity, he was obliged to the hon. gentleman for affording him the present, of making—what appeared to him to be of the utmost moment to make—a distinct avowal of the view in which the subject was considered by his majesty's ministers. They were decidedly of opinion, not only that it would be unadvisable to agitate such a question, but in case of any substantive proposition being brought forward, would meet it with their most determined resistance [Hear, hear!] They looked upon the last measure as one of sound legislative policy, and that it had produced all the benefits which were expected to be derived from it to the agricultural interests of the country. But they would consider it to be the height of imprudence, amounting almost to insanity, to introduce any new measure; or to revive discussions which could have no other effect than that of exciting differences and animosities from one end of the kingdom to the other.
Mr. M. A. Taylorstrongly condemned the attempt which was now carrying on to force this question again on the attention of parliament. He always had used, and he should continue to use, his utmost endeavours to defeat every scheme for tampering with the corn trade.
Sir H. Parnell, from the share which he had taken in former discussions on this subject, in support of the Corn Bill, was glad to take that opportunity of expressing his disapprobation of the attempts which had been lately made to disturb the public mind. He perfectly agreed in

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all that the right hon. gentleman had said. He could not See what had occurred to render it necessary to bring the question again before parliament. The measure adopted had been beneficial every way; it had benefited the agricultural interest, without injuring any other class of the community.
Mr. Long Wellesleyconcurred with the hon. baronet in thinking, that the late act had produced all the benefit to agriculture that could have been expected, or was desirable. He had heard with much satisfaction, the declaration of the same sentiments on the part of government.
Another member was now about to offer some remarks, when
The Speakersuggested, that as a very important question had been asked, and an explicit answer given, it would be inconvenient and contrary to the practice of the House, to prolong a conversation which was not addressed to any question now before it.

PRIVATE BILLS.
The standing order of the 18th June, 1811, "That all Petitions for Private Bills be presented within fourteen days after the first Friday in the next and every future session of parliament," being read it was resolved, 1. "That this House will not receive any petition for private bills, after the 5th of February. 2. That no private bill be read the first time after the 15th of March. 3. That this House will not receive any report of such private bill, after the 10th of May."

PUBLIC BUSINESS—ORDERS OF THE DAY, AND MOTIONS.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved, "That, in this present session of parliament, all Orders of the Day, set down in the Order Book for Mondays and Fridays, shall be disposed of before the House will proceed upon any Motions of which Notices shall be entered in the Order Book."
Mr. Calcraftobserved, that this arrangement ought to be understood with reference to the necessity of the case. When it was first made, it was done for the accommodation of both sides of the House; and he did not see why the right of bringing on an important motion should be given up in every instance.
Mr. Bennetwas against the principle of giving precedence to orders on every occasion, and said he should exercise his right of bringing forward a motion on
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those days whenever he thought it necessary.
Mr. Robinsonsaid, that on all occasions, when the necessity of the case required it, motions might have the precedence. Undoubtedly, the hon. member possessed the right he mentioned, and would exercise it at his own discretion.
The motion was then agreed to.

ELECTION PETITIONS.
Several petitions complaining of undue elections and returns, being offered to be presented, it was resolved, "that whenever several petitions, complaining of undue elections or returns of members to serve in parliament, shall at the same time be offered to be presented, Mr. Speaker shall direct such petitions to be all of them delivered at the table; where they shall be classed, and read in the following order: viz. Such petitions as complain that no return has been made of a member or members to serve in parliament, in the first class. Such as complain of double returns, in the second class. Such as complain of the election or return of members returned to serve for two or more places, in the third class. Such as complain of returns only, in the fourth class. And the residue of the said petitions, in the fifth class.—And the names of the places to which such petitions (contained in the first class, if more than one) shall relate, shall, in the first place, be written on several pieces of paper of an equal size; and the same pieces of paper shall be then rolled up, and put by the clerk into a box or glass, and then publicly drawn by the clerk; and the said petitions shall be read in the order in which the said names shall be drawn; and then the like method shall be observed with respect to the several petitions contained in the second, third, fourth, and fifth classes, respectively."
Then several petitions were delivered in at the table accordingly; and the names of the places to which the said petitions related were put into the glass at the table, and drawn by the clerk in the following order; 1. Powey—petition of Alexander Glynn Campbell, esq.; also, a petition of Richard Cotton Mould, and other electors; to be taken into consideration on the 9th of February.—2. Cork County—petition of John Boyle, esq.; also, a petition of Richard Ronayne, and other electors; also, a petition of Emanuel Hutchins, a freeholder; to be taken

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into consideration on the 23rd of February.—3. Leitrim County—petition of John Marcus Clements, esq.; also, a petition of Henry John Clements, a freeholder; also, a petition of the rev. John Leahy, a freeholder; to be taken into consideration on the 23rd of February.—4. Cork City—petition of Mountifort Longfield, esq.; also, a petition of Edward Roche and others, freemen and electors; to be taken into consideration on the 25th of February.—Camelford—petition of John Stewart, esq. and others; to be taken into consideration on the 9th of February.—6. Leominster—petition of electors; to be taken into consideration on the 11th of February.—7. Ever-sham—petition of Sir Charles Cockerell, bart.; to be taken into consideration on the 11th of February.—8. Limerick City—petition of Thomas Spring Rice, esq., to be taken into consideration on the 25th of February.—9. Drogheda—petition of James Gernon and others; to be taken into consideration on the 2nd of March.—10. Penryn—petition of John Lavicount Anderdon, esq., and others; to be taken into consideration on the 16th of February.—11. Wootton Bassett—petition of John Wray and Horace Twiss, esqrs.; to be taken into consideration on the 16th of February.—12. Inverkeithing, &c.—petition of the hon. Francis Ward Primrose; to be taken into consideration on the 18th of February.—13. Chester City—petition of Sir John Grey Egerton, bart., and John Williams, esq.; also, a petition of John Lowe and other voters; to be taken into consideration on February 18.

STATE OF PRISONS—ABUSES IN PUBLIC CHARITIES.
Mr. Canningrose to give two notices on behalf of lord Castle-reagh. During the last session certain papers relative to the state of the various prisons throughout the kingdom had been moved for in another place. It was now intended that the same papers should be laid before this House. His noble friend intended then to move that a committee be appointed to inquire into the state and discipline of the various prisons. The other notice referred to a commission which had been appointed to inquire into abuses in public charities. When the first report of that commission should be presented, it was the intention of his noble friend to move for leave to bring in a bill granting certain extensions be the powers and objects of that commission.

BANK RESTRICTION.
Mr. Hart Daviscommenced a question, which he put to the chancellor of the exchequer, by saying, that a large body of merchants, bankers, and manufacturers of the city of Bristol, had directed him to express their sense of the distressing effects which would follow the too early resumption of cash payments; and they had requested him to endeavour to learn what were the intentions of his majesty's ministers in relation to this momentous question. He had applied to the right hon. gentleman, who had suggested to him the propriety of asking for information, as to the views and intentions of government with respect to this subject, in the House. He therefore took the earliest opportunity of asking the right hon. gentleman, whether it was the intention of his majesty's ministers to recommend a continuance of the restriction on payments in cash? Now that he was on his legs, he would put another question to the chancellor of the exchequer, which was highly interesting. The right hon. gentleman had said, in the course of the last session, in reply to a question put to him, that he saw no probability of being obliged to resort, during the present year, either to funding or raising money by loan. Was he of the same opinion still?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that he considered it his duty to give an explicit answer to the first question put to him by the hon. gentleman. It had been his intention to bring forward a measure for the purpose of continuing the Restriction act, in the course of the ensuing week. A right hon. gentleman had, however, given notice of a motion on the state of public credit, as connected with the circulation of Bank paper, for a subsequent day; and it would, therefore, be more convenient to defer his own proposition till after the discussion of that motion. With respect to the second question of the hon. gentleman, the House must feel that his majesty's ministers should be free to choose the most beneficial mode of raising the supply for the year. He certainly did not at present foresee that there would exist a necessity for any additional funding; but it would at the same time be unadvisable to fetter a discretion which circumstances might render it advantageous to exercise.

REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS RESPECTING THE MODE OF PREVENTING THE FORGERY OF BANK NOTES.
The chancellor of the exchequerpresented, by command of the Prince Regent, the following
REPORT of the Commissioners appointed for inquiring into the mode of preventing the FORGERY OF BANK NOTES.
To his Royal Highness George Prince of Wales, Regent of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
In obedience to the directions contained in his majesty's commission, we proceeded, in the latter end of the month of July last, to consider the important subject referred to us.
Our attention was first directed to the proposals for improvement in the form of the notes issued by the Bank of England; and it being known that many plans had been submitted to that body which they had not thought it expedient to adopt, we felt it proper, in the first instance, to obtain correct information upon this point; and we therefore requested the court of directors to furnish us with an account of such plans, They did accordingly furnish us, without delay, with a detailed account of 108 projects, regularly classed and arranged; together with the correspondence respecting them, a statement of the trials to which they had been subjected, and specimens of the proposed originals, and of the imitations executed by order of the Bank. They also laid before us about seventy varieties of paper made at their manufactory in experiments for its improvement, in which almost every alteration recommended for adoption had been tried, and, in some instances, anticipated by their own manufacturer.
We have also received and answered communications from about seventy individuals, which have been arranged and considered; and in some cases, a personal interview has been requested, and held. Several of these persons had been previously in communication with the Bank: and we find that in the instance of some projects of superior promise, the directors had furnished to the proposers, the pecuniary means of carrying their ideas into effect. We have likewise sought and obtained information, as to the state of the paper currency in other countries; but this has proved of very little importance, with reference to the object of our present inquiry. From America, which affords the closest parallel to the state of England in this particular, no official return has yet been received, but we have reason to think that in several parts of the United States, the crime of forgery is prevalent, and that great efforts are now making to give to the notes such a character as may baffle the skill of the American forger. Specimens of these improved notes have been communicated to us by the agent
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of the American patentee, and have received our particular attention with regard to the practicability of adopting the invention, in whole, or in part, so as to present a barrier to the art and skill of the forger in this country.
Upon the general subject of the extent of forgery, we do not think it necessary to recapitulate statements which are already before parliament and the public. It appeared to us however proper to obtain more particular information as to the course which has been hitherto pursued by the Bank, both with respect to the prevention, and with respect to the detection and punishment of the crime. Upon the former of these points, we have received from the directors, in addition to the account before alluded to, clear and circumstantial details. And it is but common justice to those gentlemen to state, that in every instance our inquiries have been met by them in the most prompt and satisfactory manner, and every sort of useful information readily furnished. We feel it also proper to add our opinion, formed after an examination of all the projects which have been formerly submitted to the Bank for a change in the form of their notes, that no one of these could have been adopted with such a prospect of solid advantage to the public, as would compensate the evils necessarily attendant upon a change.
The invention to which we refer in the latter part of this report, and on which our attention is now principally engaged, was laid before the directors a short time previous to the issuing of his majesty's commission, and so far entertained by them, that they advanced a large sum of money to the author. The chief merit of this invention consisting in the extreme accuracy of the machinery requisite, time and application are necessary to bring it to such a state of perfection as appears likely to answer the purpose desired.
Upon the latter of the two points above referred to, we have received from the chief inspector and chief investigator at the Bank, and also from the solicitor, accounts of the course pursued in their respective departments. For which purpose, we requested the personal attendance of each of those officers, and entered into such an examination of them, as appeared to us to be calculated to produce the necessary information. We have also been furnished by the Bank with the means of judging of the actual slate of forgery, and of that degree of skill which appears sufficient to deceive the public, by the examination of forged notes of various kinds; and even of the tools and instruments used by one forger, which were taken upon him.
Whilst it is painful to observe the degree of talent perverted, it is at the same time o be remarked, that in many instances the public suffer themselves to be deceived by very

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miserable imitations; and it is to be feared that a similar carelessness would very much lessen the good effects to be derived from the employment of superior skill and workmanship in the formation of a new note. Another fact appears proper to be noticed here, as forming an important ingredient in the consideration of any proposed plan. The issue of small notes by the bank is necessarily very uncertain and irregular in its amount. We find, that to keep up the usual supply, not less than fifty plates are requisite; and it is considered proper to have a much larger number in a state of preparation. And as it is obviously necessary to preserve, as much as possible, identity in the notes, this circumstance alone, precludes the application for this purpose of many ingenious plans, even if there did not exist other insuperable objections to them.
Resulting from the above statements and examinations, some general observations have occurred to us, which appear proper to be introduced in this stage of the Report.
It has been very commonly imagined, that, in consequence of the simplicity or execution in the present bank notes, the actual forgery of them was very generally and extensively practised, and that often by persons without money or talent; and this idea has formed the basis of much of the reasoning used by many of the projectors, whose plans have been under our view. The reverse of this we believe to be the fact; and from the information before us, we feel ourselves warranted in stating our opinion, that the great quantity of forged small notes which have lately been found in circulation, have all issued from a very few plates only; and that the fabrication of them is chiefly confined to one particular part of the country, and carried on by men of skill and experience, and possessed of a very considerable command of capital. Upon a cursory observation, it appeared remarkable that whilst so many utterers are constantly brought to justice, the actual forger should very rarely indeed be detected. But further investigation has led us to think, that this fact may be accounted for; and without entering into details, which upon this point it is better to avoid, we think that it results naturally from the lamentable perfection of system, to which this fraudulent traffic has been brought; and we have seen no reason to doubt that the directors of the Bank, and their officers, have used every exertion in their power to bring the actual forgers to justice, though unfortunately without success, except in very few instances. We cannot refrain however from adding to this statement, our opinion, that there must be some culpable remissness in the local police of those districts within which the actual fabricators of bank notes are more than suspected to reside, and to carry on their trade with impunity. And before we quit this part of the subject, we wish to suggest for the consideration of
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those, by whose judgment such a question may be properly decided, whether it might not be expedient to offer a very large reward for the apprehension and conviction of a person actually engaged in forging bank notes. We are aware of the objections which exist against the system of pecuniary rewards, and are fully impressed with a sense of the evils that may arise from a too general adoption of it. But the circumstances under which the crime of forgery exists in this country are peculiar; and it appears to us hardly possible that those evils which might be anticipated from the offer of a reward in the case of some other crimes, could follow from such an offer in this case; and knowing how many individuals must be saved from punishment by the conviction of one actual forger, we venture to recommend the adoption of this measure, to be concurrent with such an improvement in the form of the note as we hope to see effected.
Having been furnished with such information as was within our reach, relative to the subject of our inquiry, we in the next place, proceeded to examine more in detail the several projects submitted to us. In pursuing this examination, we have not indulged the vain expectation of finding any plan for a Bank note, which shall not be imitable by the skill of English artists, and we have considered that it would be utterly unsafe to rely for security against forgery, upon the employment of any process, the chief merit of which was to consist in its being kept secret; of which several have been communicated to us. Our object has been, to select some plan, of which the process, when the principles of it are understood, and the machinery and implements provided, should be simple enough to be applied without interruption to the extended operations of the Bank; and should at the same time comprise so much of superior art, as may oppose the greatest possible difficulties to the attempts of the forger, and may present such points of accuracy and excellence in workmanship to the eye of any individual using ordinary caution, as shall enable him to detect a fraud by observing the absence of those points in a fabricated note. In the mass of the schemes before us, there are, of course, very various degrees of merit; and we endeavoured to class them as well as circumstances would permit. From a very large portion of them it was obvious, upon a first inspection, that no beneficial result could be expected. Of the whole number, we find about twelve of superior skill and ingenuity, but anticipated by others of higher merit; or merely ingenious, but inapplicable in practice. And we consider nine others to be either of such originality or ingenious combination of existing means, as to have required our more particular attention; and with respect to these, much consideration has been had, and in some instances, improvements and experiments suggested and tried.

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We have not considered, as decisive against the merit of any particular plan, the single fact, that it may be imitated by superior art and expensive means. But when we have found, in the case of specimens submitted to us, apparently of great excellence, and the result of a combination of talent or machinery, that a very good imitation has been produced in a short time, without any peculiar expense, and by the application of means only, which are within the reach of very many artists and engravers in England; and when we reflect, to how very few hands the business of forgery appears to be at present confined, we cannot doubt that in the event of bank notes being formed from any of such specimens, an equal number at least of persons would very soon indeed be found capable of fabricating those notes to a considerable extent, and with a degree of skill quite sufficient to deceive the public. Another consideration has also had weight in inducing us to hesitate much, before we venture to recommend any specific plan. The adoption of any new form of note presenting peculiar and characteristic marks, but the imitation of which we could not confidently feel to be extremely difficult, would not only not do good, but would produce much evil; and would induce a false security, by accustoming the public to rely upon the appearance of such marks and peculiar character, rather than upon a cautious and general observation of the whole note.
Our remarks however, as to imitation, do not apply to all the specimens which have been offered to us. There are a few of singular and superior merit, produced by means which it is very improbable should ever come within the reach of any single forger, and the imitation of which, except by those means, appears in a high degree difficult.
Safety, or rather comparative safety, is to be sought, to a certain extent, in a combination of excellence in various particulars; but chiefly, as we conceive, in the application of a principle beyond the reach of the art of the copper-plate engraver, which in its different processes is possessed of the most formidable power of imitation. One plan, before alluded to, as apparently affording this advantage, has been, with the most liberal assistance from the Bank, for some time past in a course of trial for its greater perfection, and with a view to combination with other improvements, satisfactory experiments of which have already been effected. The result, if our expectations be not disappointed, will afford a specimen of great ingenuity in the fabric of the paper, of great excellence in the workmanship, and of a very peculiar invention, and difficult machinery in the art of printing. We confidently hope, that no long time will elapse, before we are enabled to lay before your royal highness that result; and we have every reason to know, that the bank directors are seriously anxious to adopt any plan, which shall be found, after patient examination, to be worthy
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of adoption. In the mean time, we have thought it right not to delay informing your royal highness of the course of our proceedings. The investigation in which we have been engaged, has strengthened rather than removed our feeling of the difficulties with which the whole subject is surrounded. We do not wish to represent those difficulties as precluding the propriety of an attempt to remove the existing evils, by a change in the form of the notes issued by the Bank of England; but we do feel them to be such, as make it imperative upon those with whom the responsibility rests, to be fully satisfied that they shall produce an improvement, before they venture to effect a change.
All which is humbly submitted to your royal highness's consideration and judgment.
Soho Square, Jos. BANKS.
Jan. 15, 1819.
WILLIAM CONGREVE.
WILLIAM COURTENAY.
DAVIES GILBERT.
JER. HARMAN.
W. H. WOLLASTON.
CHARLES HATCHETT.
The report was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.