Sitting of 23 February 1819

CORN BILL—PETITION FROM NOTTINGHAM.
Lord Rancliffe, in presenting a petition from Nottingham, against the Corn Act, took occasion to observe, that he agreed with the petitioners, that notwithstanding the speech from the throne, assuring them that the manufactures, commerce, and trade of the country were in a flourishing state, the greatest distress existed in the manufacturing districts.
Sir R. Wilsonobserved, that what he had said on a former occasion, with respect to the subject of petitions for an extension of the Corn laws, had been grossly and maliciously misrepresented. Instead of stating that which he had really said, namely, that he thought it would be advantageous were hon. gentlemen connected with agricultural districts to dissuade their constituents from such petitions, it had been imputed to him, that he had urged them to resist that right of petitioning, which he, in common with all who
[608
loved the constitution, was most anxious to maintain. This calumny had proceeded from those who ought, by their conduct, to prove themselves the peculiar champions of the liberty of the press.
Ordered to lie on the table.

WINDSOR ESTABLISHMENT.
The House having again resolved itself into a committee on the Royal Establishment at Windsor,
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that with respect to the provision for her late majesty's servants, the committee had recommended that the annual sum of 18,245 l. should be applied to that purpose. He apprehended it was not necessary for him, after what he had stated last night, to enter at present into any further details on that part of the subject. He should, therefore, simply move the second resolution: "That a sum not exceeding 4,561 l. 8s. l1 d. being one-fourth part of the sum of 18,245 l. 15 s. 8d. be issued at the end of every quarter of a year, at the receipt of the exchequer, out of the consolidated fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and be granted to his majesty for the payment of pensions and allowances to the ladies of the bedchamber, maids of honour, and other attendants on her late majesty queen Charlotte, and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever."
The Resolution was agreed to.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, the next subject which he should submit to the consideration of the committee was the office of custos; and after what had passed in the discussion of last night, he was sure that no farther argument was necessary. He should wish, in proposing the resolution which he was about to submit on this head, to avoid every allusion which might have a personal reference to his Royal Highness, and to look only at the official duties which were to be intrusted to him. As to the amount of the provision made for this office, no question had been advanced in the House. Parliament had formerly allowed 10,000 l. to this office; and he felt convinced that every member, of the House would agree with him, that 10,000 l. a year, considering the diginity of the office, and all the circumstances connected with it, was not too great a sum. The House would see that the habits of royal persons, and the state, which their rank obliged them to support, unavoidably

609
raised their scale of expenditure above that of ordinary life. They would also bear in mind, that the office was not merely attended with great expense, but that it placed his royal highness, in that respect, much in the same situation as the king himself would be in. He was sure that no personal motive had actuated those who had voted with him last night, and therefore they could not be considered as pledged to support him on this question; but he thought they could not take a better guide than the conduct of the former parliament. With regard to the gentlemen on the opposite side, he thought he had an equal claim to their support, and he hoped they would be convinced that the conduct of parliament in 1811 and 1812, was the best guide they could follow. It was not merely the office, but the elevated rank of the individual, and other attending circumstances, that must regulate the expense. The noble lord then moved, "That the annual sum of 10,000 l. be issued out of the civil list revenues to his royal highness the duke of York, to enable his royal highness to meet the expenses to which his royal highness may be exposed in discharge of the important duties confided to him by parliament, in the care of his majesty's person."
Mr. Tierneywas astonished on what possible ground the noble lord could suppose that he should obtain his support to the measure of charging the allowance to his Royal Highness on the civil list. He had endeavoured to guard against any such inference being drawn from what he said on this subject. What he did say was, that he should be happy if such a course could be adopted on this occasion, as would keep the subject out of discussion altogether. If ministers laid the charge of the allowance to his Royal Highness on the privy purse, he had stated that he would not object to it. Whatever new charge was laid on the privy purse, if no new charge was laid on the public, the House, he thought, would acquiesce in; and to this extent only, he had agreed to the charge. But of all things he was astonished that the noble lord should think of applying to him for his vote on the ground of the vote to the queen of 10,000 l. out of the civil list before, which grant he bad resisted [Hear, hear!]. This, however, would teach the House how they departed from the strict course which they ought always to prescribe to them-
[610
selves, with respect to granting the public money, even from the best feelings. In the afflicted state in which the queen was at that moment, there was a general indisposition in the House to add to her grief by any discussion on the subject of this grant; but he was sure that no man who then granted this sum to her majesty supposed that he was to preclude himself from a different disposition when the circumstances which then influenced the House no longer existed. It was painful to him to enter on a discussion with respect to the allowance to his Royal Highness, but the noble lord himself had brought on the discussion, and he must take the consequences of it. Unless the noble lord made out a particular ground for charging this sum of 10,000 l. on the civil list, very different from any he had yet heard, he certainly should feel himself bound to oppose it. He was afraid from what took place last night, that some juggle was in contemplation in the proceedings with respect to this grant, but he now understood that the report was to be received on Thursday next; and he gave notice that he should then take the sense of the House on this grant. He thought the allowance to his royal Highness was unobjectionable; but whether that sum was proper or not, it should not come out of the pockets of the public.
Lord Rancliffeexpressed his determination to oppose any grant out of the civil list to his royal highness the duke of York.
Mr. Waithmanconceived the House was now at full liberty to adopt any course which it might deem proper with respect to the allowance for the care of his majesty's person. It was not so much on account of the magnitude of the sum proposed to be granted that he should oppose it, though no grant whatever, in the present state of the country, could be viewed with indifference. But there were other grounds on which he should rest his opposition to it. When it was agreed on all hands that the country was in a state of the utmost distress,—when the table of the House was loaded with petitions from the agriculturalists and other classes, stating their distress, and praying for economy and retrenchment,—and when it was agreed on all hands that economy must commence somewhere—he thought, if his majesty's ministers had a true sense of the duties incumbent on them in such a state of things, they ought to show it by the example

611
they afforded on an occasion like this, to the country at large, that they were sincere in the professions of economy which they had so frequently in their mouths. He could not help expressing it as his opinion, that his majesty's ministers, who in the name of his royal highness the duke of York, had delivered a message from him last night to the House, had given his Royal Highness advice of a tentency to degrade his character in the eyes of the House and the country; because, in his opinion, his majesty's ministers ought to have recommended to his Royal Highness rather to instruct ministers to come down to the House, and state that in the present state of the country it was his determination to take no allowance whatever, than to instruct them to state that he had no objection to an allowance from any public fund whatever, but that he would not consent to take it out of the privy purse. He was persuaded that in resisting this grant, he should be acting in conformity with the feelings of the whole country.
Mr. Curwenstated, that he should give his decided opposition to any grant out of the civil list.
The Resolution was then agreed to; as were also the following: 4. "That it is expedient that power be given to his royal highness the duke of York, to charge the money issued to the keeper of his majesty's privy purse with the payment of pensions and allowances to any servants of his majesty, whose services may be discontinued upon the reduction of his majesty's household at Windsor, not exceeding in the whole, together with the present charge upon the said privy purse, the aggregate annual amount charged thereon by an act of the 52nd year of his present majesty." On the 5th resolution, "That the sum of 14,500 l., being one-fourth part of 58,000 l. the sum allowed out of the civil list re-venues for the expenses of the establishment of her late majesty queen Charlotte, shall be set apart at the end of every quarter of a year, at the receipt of the exchequer, out of the civil list revenues, and be carried to, and made part of the consolidated fund of the united, kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland."
Sir A. Hopesaid, that he was anxious to have the number of equerries distinctly allowed by the committee. By reducing two of them, the saving effected would be tantamount to nothing; but should his majesty recover from his indisposition, it
[612
would necessarily give him great pain to find any of his old servants displaced. Besides, his majesty, in his present situation, required the attendance of his servants as formerly; the lords of the bedchamber could remain with him, and perform the same offices as formerly. On principle, therefore, and on economy, he would urge the continuance of six equerries. The principle was, that parliament should give the king every gratification in their power. As to the economy, it was said that the saving would be 1,000 l. a year; but it might not be 100 l. altogether. If the king lived long, it might again be 2,000 l.: the saving then was from 100 l. to 2,000 l.
Mr. Tierneysuggested, that the best time for moving to the effect proposed by the gallant officer, would be when the report would be brought up.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that all that came before the House was the sum total to be voted for the establishment, and a recommendation that the number of equerries should be four. He did not think, therefore, that the number could be altered on bringing up the report.
Sir A. Hopegave notice of a motion for Thursday, that the number of equerries should be six.
The resolution was then carried; as was also the following: 6. "That the sum of 12,500 l. being one-fourth part of the sum of 50,000 l. be set apart at the end of every quarter of a year, at the receipt of the Exchequer, out of the civil list revenues, and be carried to, and made part of the consolidated fund of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland."

POOR LAWS' AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. Sturges Bournerose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the Poor-laws. He did not anticipate any objection to the principle of the bill; but in case any should arise on the details which it would embrace, he thought it would be more convenient to allow it to be brought in and printed, and then both its principle and its details would be more intelligible. It was unnecessary for him at present to enlarge on this subject; he thought it sufficient for him to refer to the facts stated in the report of 1817. As many gentlemen who now heart him had not been members of the House at that time, he would just say what the House well knew, that the bill had failed in the last session in consequence

613
of certain alterations which had been made in it in the other House of Parliament. He was desirous not to subject the proposed measure to a similar inconvenience; although he should contend that the clause thrown out by the House of Lords was one most essential to the character of the bill. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in the bill.
Sir. R. Wilsonwished to know, whether the committee appointed in the present session had yet had an opportunity of ascertaining whether there had been any increase or diminution of the poor-rates since last year?
Mr. S. Bournereplied, that it was a subject into which the committee had not yet been able to inquire. He himself had been able to attend the committee but once; his presence having been necessary in an election committee. If he might be allowed to risk a conjecture on the question, he was apprehensive that, in the agricultural districts, the poor-rates had at least not diminished since last year.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.