Sitting of 17 February 1819

AGRICULTURAL PETITION—CORN LAWS.
Mr. Stuart Wortleypresented a Petition from the occupiers of lands in the West Riding of, York, for imposing protecting duties on the importation of provisions. On the motion, that it do lie on the table,
Sir Robert Wilsonsaid:— Sir; I really was in hopes, from what passed in this House on the very first day of the session,

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when several corn-petitions were presented, that the gentlemen styling themselves agriculturists would have stifled, with their own hands, those petitions which were known to be then in circulation. I am, however, disappointed; and those petitions are creeping into this House day after day, until, in a short time, we shall be surprised by the swarm thus almost imperceptibly introduced. It appears to me the agriculturists do not know, or will not consider, the temper and condition of the labouring classes, or they would never hazard the further exasperation of feelings which have never been completely tranquillized since the last corn-bill was passed; they never would thus madly throw a firebrand into combustible elements, which, if once enkindled, cannot be extinguished without leaving fearful traces of desolation. What claims have the agriculturists to this special favour from this House at the expense of the labouring-classes? Can they plead, that when they do obtain a high price for their corn, they ameliorate the condition of the agricultural labourer? On the contrary, do they not still confine them to eke out scanty wages with scanty subsistence and parish relief? Do they not do this, relying on the power which they have over the greater part as tenants at will, subjected to ejection from their habitation at a moment's notice? The labouring classes are now suffering the greatest distress from the high price of provisions. They will not submit to starve silently under a system of new prohibitory duties, operating as an additional tax upon bread-corn. If the agriculturists persist, the table of this House will be loaded, not merely with counter-petitions, but petitions against the existing corn-laws. With difficulty the people are now restrained: on the least encouragement, their petitions would pour in from every part of the kingdom. It is to be hoped, those gentlemen of landed property who are too wise and liberal to concur in the projects of the petitioning agriculturists, will use their influence to persuade them to desist, and think of plans to diminish, not to aggravate, the burthens of the people. If they will not take warning, they will endanger the public tranquillity, and put all property in jeopardy. They withdrew from the last contest with great advantage: let them not recommence it, lest they should be involved in a rash and perilous pursuit that may end in their ruin.
Mr. Stuart Worthydeclared, that he did not agree with the opinion of the petitioners. But with regard to the remarks of the gallant officer, he begged to observe, that it was impossible for any gentleman to stifle those petitions, as the gallant officer desired. The petitioners, it should be understood, only asked for the appointment of a committee, in. order that they might have an opportunity of proving the truth of their allegations, and he could see no objection to the presentation of such a petition. It was, indeed, his duty to present it; and whatever might be his own opinion, he submitted that he was the representative of agriculturists as well as of manufacturers; and that it was incumbent upon him to attend to the interests and wishes of both. He had advised the petitioners not to urge this petition, but still as they required him to present it, he could not consistently decline to do so.
Sir R. Wilsondisclaimed any intention to deprecate the presentation of a petition from any body of men, adding, that he meant only to impress upon the House, that the agitation of the question referred to by the petitioners was but too likely to produce a great deal of mischief, and that to prevent such agitation, it was desirable that gentlemen should use all fair influence to prevent petitions of this nature from being presented.
Mr. Alderman Woodconcurred with the gallant officer in deprecating such petitions as that under consideration, observing, that in order to settle the matter, it would be much better in the hon. member to move at once for the appointment of a committee to consider the corn laws. The country had been thrown into a state of suspense and uneasiness, by the rumours afloat, and the petitions circulating upon the subject of the corn laws. It was apprehended, indeed, that some legislative measure was in contemplation upon this subject, and hence considerable alarm was excited. To decide, then, upon the question at once, it was rather to be wished that the hon. member would move for the appointment of a committee, which motion would, he had no doubt, be rejected.
Mr. Wynnsaid, he could not agree with the last speaker, that a motion should be made for any committee upon, this subject, or that any farther legislative measure should be proposed with regard to corn. It was, no doubt, the duty of

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the hon. member to present a petition from his constituents, but he could not help expressing his regret that this petition was urged; for the very entering into any discussion of the object referred to was, in his opinion, pregnant with danger, as such a discussion was calculated to excite alarm among a variety of conflicting interests. Every man who heard him must remember the general ferment that prevailed but a few years ago, when the last corn bill was under discussion, and could not fail to be impressed with the evils likely to arise out of such discussion. To the bill alluded to be was a decided opponent. He resisted it, indeed, in every stage of its progress; because he was convinced, that no benefit would arise to agriculture, or to any branch of the public interest, equal in any degree to the disadvantages which were likely to be the result. Such was his deliberate opinion, and that opinion was justified by experience; for it appeared that while the agriculturists were universally dissatisfied with this law, its existence was the source of general complaint among the other classes of the community. On these grounds he should enter his protest at once against the proposition of any legislative measure on this subject, under the specious pretence of benefiting agriculture.
Mr. Stuart Worthyassured the House, that he had no intention of bringing forward any motion for a committee.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that the part of the country with which he was connected, was well contented with the law as it stood, and the distinct declaration on the part of ministers, he was sure, had had a powerful and beneficial effect in all the farming districts. He hoped that no encouragement would be given to the presenting of petitions of this kind in future.
Sir R. Wilsonagain disclaimed any intention to interfere with the subjects' right to petition, but repeated his opinion, that gentlemen who consulted the public peace should endeavour to dissuade those upon whom they had influence out of doors, from urging petitions of this nature. Neither had he any intention of depreciating the character of the agricultural body; but he felt it his peculiar duty to attend to the fair claims of the manufacturing interests and of the labouring classes. He had no doubt that it would be much more for the interest of the agricultural body, to content them-
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selves with the advantages which they had derived from the corn laws, than by provoking any farther discussion of the subject to risk the loss of those advantages, and to put the tranquillity of the public in jeopardy.
Ordered to lie on the table.

CHIMNEY SWEEPERS' REGULATION BILL.
Mr. Ommaneypresented a Petition from certain master chimney sweepers against the Chimney Sweepers' Regulation bill, which the petitioners stated to be a measure of injustice, and likely t do great injury to the public. The hon. member stated, that since his observations upon this subject on a former evening, he had become better acquainted with the merits of the case. He was assured that the machines proposed were quite insufficient for the purpose of cleaning the generality of chimneys, while if those machines were universally adopted, the poor boys now employed, and who were originally taken from poor houses, must be deprived of subsistence. While the pressure of poor rates was so much complained of, this part of the subject was worthy of consideration, not only with a view to those youths who might, through the adoption of the bill, be thrown out of employment, but with a view to those who would not hereafter be taken from the poor houses to be so employed.
Sir J. Yorkeexpressed a hope that what the last speaker had said would be duly considered by the House, for what was to become of those boys who were at present fed and supported by cleaning chimneys, if this employment were done away? But the fact was, that this employment could not be done away until chimneys were differently constructed, and the first part of the plan of the hon. mover of this bill ought to be to propose an alteration in the structure of some hundred thousands of chimneys. But as to the poor-rates, they must be increased by the adoption of this bill. It was notorious that the use of machinery had already thrown a number of people out of employment, and it was obvious that the adoption of the machine proposed by the author of this bill would have a similar effect. But if a measure of this nature were adopted, a private man would hardly know what to do. With an act of parliament on one side, and an attorney on the other, he would be perpetually embarrassed. He agreed with the hon. mover

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of this bill, in his solicitude for the youth of tender years, who were occasionally employed in this business; but would the hon. member propose a law to prevent boys from being sent to the mast head of a man of war? and it was quite as difficult to reach that elevation as to mount a chimney.
Mr. Bennetsaid, that in the next building act he should certainly feel it his duty to propose a clause with regard to the structure of chimneys, so as to admit the employment of the machine; but of all the chimneys in London, those which most required alteration were the warm flues constructed for the use of the higher orders. It was to be lamented, indeed, that those structures should be persisted in, as they contributed to consequences so injurious to the health and morals of youth. With regard to the hon. officer's allusion to the case of boys employed on board ship, until he heard that pins were stuck into their feet, and straw lighted under them, in order to compel them to climb a mast, he could not conceive any analogy between their case and that of the poor youths employed in sweeping chimneys.
Sir J. Yorkesaid, he imagined the cases cited were excessively exaggerated; but as to the pins and lighted straw, he could assure the hon. member he had often seen boys forced to ascend to the mast-head by a captain who followed him with a cat-o'-nine tails in his hand—a tolerably convincing argument.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Bennet then moved the order of the day for going into a committee on the Chimney Sweepers' Regulation bill.
Mr. Grenfellsaid, he could not avoid expressing his admiration of the humanity of his hon. friend, in exerting himself so assiduously to alleviate the sufferings of his fellow creatures. He stated that he had made some inquiries on the subject of this bill, at a fire-office in the city, and the secretary had informed him, that the average number of fires in chimneys swept in the usual manner was 60 or 70 per month: in those cases in which machines had been used in sweeping chimneys, the average number did not exceed two per month. Here, then, was a proportion of 2 to 65 in favour of machines. The next question he had put was—what was the proportion between the number of chimneys swept in the ordinary way, and those swept by machinery? The secretary could not say exactly, but he knew that
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thousands of chimneys in the metropolis were swept by machines. Thus, then, it appeared, that there was no danger—be was almost tempted to say there was additional safety—in using machines. This fact was sufficient to refute the objections which some persons made to the bill; and it proved that the views of his hon. friend were not visionary. The bill might perhaps be objected' to by the parishes, because, under its operation, they would not have an opportunity of sending boys out as they had formerly done; but that argument, although it might be a good one for the parishes, would have no great weight in that House.
Mr. Ommaneysaid, he was hostile to the principle of abolishing the use of climbing boys, as it would deprive parish officers of the opportunity of apprenticing boys out. He was also of opinion that machines could not, in many cases, be made use of.
Colonel Woodwas sure the hon. gentleman could not have read the report of the committee on the subject, because it both recommended the adoption of machinery, and considered and condemned the practice eulogised by the last speaker. Whoever had children of his own, and read that report, could not but feel an anxiety to have the unfortunate, oppressed climbing boys relieved; and if there were any houses with chimneys that could not be swept by machinery, it would be much better to let them be burned down.
Mr. Broughamfelt at all times averse to the principle of interference between master and servant, and child and father. But the present bill only went to regulate the labour of those who were unable to make the necessary arrangements for themselves. Interference in such a case became a duty, if not as matter of right, certainly as matter of expediency; and he would only interfere where little less than crime was attempted to be practised, as between father and child, and master and servant. If the parties to be protected had been of an age sufficient to protect themselves, he thought the principle of interference would not only be wrong, but criminal, be the nature of their employment ever so unwholesome or severe. But, in the present case, as the boys were not sui juris, master of their own acts, he hoped the House would interfere and fix some regulation by which relief would be afforded them. The pre-

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sent would not be found to be an entirely new measure; nor could his hon. and indefatigable friend be singly charged with being a mere visionary and speculator. The preamble to the 28th of the king spoke a very plain and intelligible language on the subject then before the House—an act passed while, he believed, some of the present law officers, though not holding such dignified situations as they now did, had still very respectable employments under the Crown; and an act passed under that practical statesman Mr. Pitt The hon. and learned gentleman then read an extract from the act of the 28th of the king, and also from its preamble, justifying the course of proceedings adopted by his hon. friend, and concluded by expressing his hope, that a bill so humane and useful would be unanimously agreed to.
Mr. Denmansaid, he was sorry to be compelled to disturb the unanimity of the House on the present occasion; but it appeared to him, that interference might be carried too far, and that it was in point of fact, carried too far in this case. If chimneys could be swept by machinery cheaper and better than by boys, he could not conceive that the people of this country were so attached to cruel treatment merely because it was cruel, as to continue to sweep with children, when if would be better to sweep with machinery. If, as had been stated by an hon. gentleman, on the authority of the fire-offices, that machinery was safer and better, he should think it was quite enough to state this to the public in order to induce them to adopt machinery. When he found in this bill a series of clauses, empowering a single justice to convict on the evidence of a single witness, and the functions of a jury superseded, he could not help viewing it as extremely objectionable. He must see a strong case of necessity made out before he could vote for such a measure. He was sorry to differ from his hon. friend, and he did not mean to say, that the present was a visionary interference; but he thought the good sense of the public was sufficient to correct the evil without loading the statute book with another penal law, every penal law being in his opinion a great evil. At first he had thought that the measure of his hon. friend merely went to the employment of children of very tender age; but he now found that the measure was of a much more comprehensive nature. It might be proper that children of tender
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age, either with their parents or as parish paupers, ought not to be bound out to this employment; but he thought that parents might in general be trusted with the guardianship of their own children; and he submitted, whether it would not be better that they should be employed in sweeping chimneys than in idleness, in the workhouse, or in the fraud and pilfering which was now so common among boys of tender age. With respect to the convictions for breach of covenant before a magistrate, he could not see why this, like any other covenant, should not go before a jury. He did not wish to give such enormous powers to magistrates. He thought that those who were in the habit of employing machinery were extremely remiss in not posting it about the streets, that people might know were to apply for them; for he could not help thinking, if it were properly known to the public, they would be willing to take the more humane course.
Mr. Grenfell Mr. Grenfell, in explanation said, that he had not stated, on the authority of the fire-offices, that sweeping with machinery was safer than with boys. He had merely stated, that out of 65 fires, two of them only were cases in which the chimneys had been swept with machinery.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, that with regard to the argument urged by the hon. and-learned gentleman, he would remind him, that the argument of interest did not-always furnish an incentive to action; for he was old enough to know, that in many cases men acted in direct opposition both to their own interest, and to the dictates of humanity. During the continuance of the slave- trade, surely both interest and humanity might have prompted the owner to take every measure in his power, for the safety and comfort of his slaves, in conveying them from Africa to the West Indies; but did these motives operate in the powerful manner in which the hon. and learned gentleman contended that they must always do? In such cases as those for which the present bill was intended to provide, every man might think that he had a right to judge for himself. It was well known, however, that in general, improvements and discoveries were long in being adopted, as was sufficiently apparent from the slow progress' of machinery in manufactures; but no proof of this fact could be stronger, or more in point on the present occasion, than the history of vaccination. In this

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country, where the discovery was made, the greatest opposition was raised against it; and even at present, when all prejudice had nearly subsided, such was the negligence of parents, that hundreds were dying annually of the small-pox. In some places on the continent, the ravages of this dreadful distemper were as great at present, as they had been before vaccination was known; so great was the power of prejudice, in rendering people blind to their own interests! The hon. and learned gentleman had said, that machines would of themselves supersede the practice of employing climbing boys. In a long course of years machines might get the better, but, what numbers of poor wretched boys would suffer in the meantime! Besides, the anti-machinists would, from the shame of admitting that they had been in error, continue to employ climbing boys. If the use of machines were established into a system, it would drive the use of climbing boys quite away, and its efficacy would be proved beyond all doubt. But ought they, during this competition, to suffer boys of a tender age to be placed in one of the most degrading situations in which a human being could be employed? He felt obliged to the hon. author of this bill, who had acted on this as on all occasions, from that principle of humanity which was well known to distinguish him. He most heartily wished that his efforts would be crowned with the deserved success.
Mr. Barhamsaid, that twenty years ago sweeping boys had never been heard of in the vicinity of the place where he resided, and when he took steps to introduce the use of them, so great was the force of custom, that actual resistance was offered to it, and at the present time not one out of ten chimneys was swept in that part of the country.
The House then went into the committee, and proceeded to fill up the blanks in the bill. On the clause being read, to restrain masters from taking apprentices under 14 years of age,
Mr. Ommaneywished that the word "eight" should be substituted, remarking that the picture which had been drawn of the unhappy state of these creatures was far from correct. He had had much experience as an overseer in town and country, and had never seen the symptoms of misery in their countenance; on the contrary, they were generally possessed of good animal spirits, and were gay,
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cheerful, and contented. He had never known any boy who had been apprenticed to a sweep become chargeable to the parish; but many of them had been very efficient men in the navy.
Mr. Bennetwas resolved not to yield the point. He was astonished to hear any person, without having read a line of the report, venture to hazard an opinion; and still more so, that when those beings exhibited every symptom of premature old age, distorted limbs, humped backs, and sickly constitutions, the hon. gentleman, should represent them as flourishing in health and strength, and forming a nursery for the navy.
Sir Isaac Coffinsaid, that he had not, in the course of forty years experience, known a single instance of a sweep joining the navy.
Mr. Alderman Woodwas at a loss to know, when the hon. gentleman could have seen so much animation in the countenances of these boys, but perhaps it was after one of them had been tortured in a chimney for several hours, and when his features had been rendered cheerful on finding himself relieved from pain.
Mr. Bennetstated an instance, in which a boy was disposed of by his parent. A poor woman went out for a short time, leaving her husband and son at home; on her return she found that her husband had actually sold the boy to a master chimneysweep.
Mr. Denmanobjected to the clause. It was possible, he said, that the chimneys of palaces and public buildings might be swept with machines; but who had entered into the smaller dwellings and ascertained whether it was possible to introduce them in these houses? It had been admitted that, on some occasions, boys might be absolutely necessary; he thought, therefore, that the House should pause before they rendered it impossible to obtain assistance in case of emergency.
Mr. Bennetsaid, it was in vain to talk, if masters were allowed to send boys up chimneys, for if those of eight years were allowed, they would have them younger; if of ten years, they would have them of eight; and if of twelve, they would have them often. Every misery was tolerated under the old act, and if this clause was objected to, the misery, instead of being removed would be aggravated.
The clause was agreed to, and the bill passed the committee.

MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HIGHWAYS AND TURNPIKES.
Mr. Protheroe Mr. Protheroe, pursuant to a notice which he had given, wished to bring under consideration the expediency of making some more effectual provision for the Repair of Highways and Turnpikes in England and Wales. The acts of parliament already subsisting were quite inadequate to the purposes for which they were passed, and a new system of regulation had become indispensably necessary. The causes of their failure in effecting the desired end were various. A very valuable report had been made by a committee appointed some time since to inquire into the subject, and in which these causes were examined in detail. His own attention had been drawn to it both by the numerous petitions from the trustees of turnpike-roads, setting forth their own insolvency, and by the facility with which the prayers of such petitions were generally acceded to. He had moved in the last parliament, under the impressions which that observation made on his mind, for an account of the debt, income, and expenditure of all turnpike-trusts in England and Wales, intending that return as a legacy to some hon. gentleman in the present parliament, of which he himself did not at that time expect to be a member. He was firmly persuaded that great public advantage might be derived from committing these trusts to persons of superior education and scientific acquirements. Many instances might be adduced, in which a knowledge of the best mode of constructing roads, and of the materials afforded within the soil itself, at some depth from the surface, had produced a very considerable saving of public money. The House would not fail to bear in mind, that the construction of these roads had originally cost 7,000,000 l. sterling; that they extended over 25,000 miles, and were maintained at an annual expense of 1,200,000 l. or 1,300,000 l. He held in his hand an extract from the report to which he had already referred, in which it was represented, that the advantage to be derived from an improvement of the roads to all commercial intercourse, could not, when joined to the saving in horses, and in wear and tear, be estimated at less than 5,000,000 l. a year. After some further remarks, the hon. gentleman concluded by moving, "That a Select Committee be appointed to take into consideration the acts now in force regarding the Turn-
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pike roads and Highways in England and Wales, and the expediency of additional regulations for their better repair and preservation; and to report their observations thereupon, from time to time, to the House."
Mr. Crippsagreed with many of the observations made by the hon. gentleman, and hoped that the appointment of a committee would lead to some speedy and radical improvement in the condition of the public roads. The highway and turnpike acts differed very materially in many of their provisions; the consequence of which had been, that a race of informers had sprung up in many parts of the country, not only detrimental to its peace, but creative of much unpleasant feeling amongst inoffensive and unoffending individuals. Informers should be put down at any hazard, in order that the public peace should not be embroiled, nor the public morals contaminated. By one of those acts, the carrying of manure had been allowed toll free; but by another, if extra horses had been used for the purpose of more easily carrying the load, they became subjected to a very heavy toll. The committee would, he hoped, give to the question its most earnest attention, and with the anticipation of a favourable issue to their labours, he felt happy in seconding the motion.
Sir M. W. Ridleyasked, whether the inquiry into the turnpike trusts was to be retrospective, or only prospective?
Mr. Protheroereplied, certainly not retrospective.
Colonel Woodthought it of great importance that the whole system of highways and turnpikes should be inquired into; for, in his opinion, that subject was intimately connected with the poor laws. In the course of last year, a sum of 1,500,000 l. had been laid out on highways, while so many poor, for whom that sum would have provided, were left without employment, and in a state of destitution. He thought the statute-duty should be repealed, and that instead of farmers being obliged to send their servants to work on the public roads, which often occasioned very inconvenient interruptions to their own business, poor people who were willing to labour for their support, should be employed in this work. If young single men, instead of being locked up in work-houses, as had been stated on a former evening, were employed on the highways, it would be a great advantage to themselves, as well as to the public.
Sir H. Parnellrose, not for the purpose of offering any opposition to the motion, but merely to say, that having on one occasion acted on a committee of the same nature with that proposed, he had heard abundant evidence to satisfy him of the expediency and necessity of investigating the subject. Many witnesses had stated before that committee, that the duties had of late years been doubled, without any improvement being effected in the roads.
The motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed, consisting of the following members, viz.: Mr. Protheroe, Mr. D. Gilbert, Mr. C. Dundas, lord Granville Somerset, Mr. Frankland Lewis, Mr. Nicholson Calvert, Mr. Holme Sumner, lord Clive, Mr. Calcraft, Mr. Dickinson, Mr. Curwen, Mr. Wood, Sir C. Monck, Mr. W. Wynn, Sir J. Sebright, Mr. Newman, Mr. Estcourt, Sir H. Parnell, Mr. Walter Burrell, Mr. W. Smith, Mr. Tremayne, Mr. Shaw Lefevre, Mr. Stuart Wortley, Mr. Gladstone, and Mr. Cripps.

REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE ON THE ROYAL ESTABLISHMENTS.
Mr. Vesey Fitzgeraldpresented the following

REPORT.
The COMMITTEE to whom the Establishment of her late Majesty, and the estimate of the expenses of the proposed establishment of his Majesty's future household at Windsor, were referred;—Have agreed to the following Report:
Your Committee have deemed it to be their duty, in the first place, to take into their consideration the arrangement which has been proposed for the future establishment of his Majesty.
By the Act of the 52 Geo. 3rd, c. 8, the sum of 100,000 l. was directed to be set apart annually out of the Civil List, for the expense of the king's household; and any surplus, after defraying this charge, was to be applied to the purposes of his majesty's civil establishment.
It appears to your Committee, that the reduction, which is proposed in that expenditure, of one half, may with propriety be made; and that an annual sum of 50,000 l. will be sufficient to provide for this service; and they refer to the estimates, under the different heads, annexed to this Report.
In considering the scale and expense of the establishment which it is necessary
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to form, while they approve of the discontinuance of the salaries of certain of the officers of state, who have hitherto, since his majesty's indisposition, been retained, yet your Committee recommend, that, at the head of the establishment, an officer of the rank of the groom of the stole should be placed, as they deem it important to have a person of rank and of high station, connected with the king's service, generally residing near his majesty's person. For the same reasons it appears expedient, that one of the king's equerries (the number of whom, in the judgment of the committee, ought to be limited to four) should be in daily and constant attendance at Windsor.
In the examination of the estimates for defraying the charge of the proposed tables, and for the other branches of expenditure at Windsor, your Committee have received satisfactory explanations respecting them from colonel Stephenson, to whom the superintendence of the king's household has been in a great degree confided.
It appears to them, that the estimates have been framed, for the services to which they are to be applied, with a due attention to economy; and they refer particularly to "the explanatory statement of the estimate for the expense of his majesty's household," which is annexed. A large portion of the expense which, as your Committee are informed, cannot be estimated at less than one-third of the whole amount, will be at all events to be incurred by the maintenance of Windsor Castle as a royal residence, and ought not to be set down as exclusively belonging to the establishment of his majesty. The names and descriptions of the officers, whose salaries have been discontinued, will be found in the Appendix, together with a list of the menial servants who have been reduced; and the amount of the wages and appointments which the latter received in the king's service.
Your Committee next proceeded to the subject of the establishment of her late majesty, which had been referred to their consideration.
His royal highness the Prince Regent having been pleased, by his gracious message, to place at the disposal of parliament, the sum of 58,000 l. per annum, in consequence of her majesty's demise, and at the same time to recommend to the House of Commons, the claim-

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founded on the faithful services of those who formed the separate establishment of her majesty, in order that the House might be enabled to judge what part of that sum it may be advisable to apply to the annual provision for such persons, your Committee have obtained accounts of such allowances as were made to the officers and servants of queen Mary on her demise in the year 1694; of queen Caroline in 1737; and to the household of the princess dowager of Wales in 1772; amounting annually, for the establishment of queen Mary, to 15,278 l. 16 s. 8d.; to that of queen Caroline, to 19,812 l.; and for the household of the princess dowager of Wales, to 19,702 l. 7s.. 10 d.
The grants, in the instances referred to, were not brought under the consideration or view of parliament, but were paid out of the civil list revenues; an annual saving on these revenues having been made by the discontinuance of the respective royal establishments to a greater extent than those allowances amounted to. In the year 1782, by the act passed for the regulation of the civil list, the amount of pensions to be granted out of the civil list revenues was limited, and in consequence of that limitation, and the present charge on the pension list, it is not possible to place such allowances as it may be wished to grant to the queen's servants upon that fund; but the whole sum of 58,000 l., which was annually paid to the queen, being now at the disposal of parliament, it remains for parliament to make such provision, in this respect, as it may in its liberality think fit.
In offering for the consideration of the House the annexed scale of pensions recommended for the servants of her late majesty, while your Committee have had in view the expectations which those persons may reasonably have entertained, as to the provision which would be made for them when their services should cease, they yet feel it to be their duty to submit to the House, that this recommendation should not be drawn into precedent on the formation of future establishments.
It will be observed, that the state officers, as well as some others, to whom their salaries were continued for life, in the instances referred to, do not appear in the list which is proposed. The general principle which has been adopted in framing it, being to suggest a provision for the female part of the queen's house-
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hold, and for the domestic officers and menials, of whom the greater proportion have been for many years, and during the course of a long reign, attached to her service. The amount of this provision, together with the pensions to be continued to such as were the objects of her majesty's benevolence, is less than was given upon the two last occasions which have been noticed, without taking into account the difference in the value of money at those periods, and at the present.
If parliament shall approve of what has been here submitted, legislative enactments will be required to carry these regulations into effect. It will be necessary to alter that part of the act of the 52d Geo. 3rd, cap. 8, which appoints the attendants on the king's person, and also to regulate the sum to be in future appropriated for defraying the expense of his majesty's household. That clause also of the act of the 56 Geo. 3rd, cap. 46, which enacts, that whenever the charge upon the civil list shall exceed in any one year 1,100,000 l., an account of the exceeding, and the cause thereof, shall be laid before parliament, must be amended, so as to require a similar account to be submitted, whenever that charge shall exceed the amount to which the expenditure of the civil list shall be limited by the reductions which are now proposed.
17 th February,1819.
Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.