Sitting of 9 February 1819

IRISH GRAND JURY PRESENTMENTS BILL.
Mr. Dawsonpresented a petition from the county of Londonderry, praying for the revision of the act passed in the last session, respecting Grand Jury Presentments in Ireland. In doing this, he begged to be understood by his right hon. friend, that the petitioners in no part complained of the principles of the measure which he had introduced. He allowed that the former system of grand jury presentments in Ireland was indefensible; and that the grossest abuses prevailed in the application of the money, to raise which, the tenantry were pressed to the ground by taxes, under the name

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of county rates. The petition, which was signed by almost all the magistrates, complained, that, from local circumstances, the act was inoperative in the county of Londonderry. Before a presentment was made to the grand jury, it was required by this act, that it should be approved by a surveyor and three magistrates, who were to possess certain qualifications there specified. The qualification was a certain amount of freehold property or long leases; but it happened, that, in the county of Londonderry, a great proportion of the most active magistrates were the holders of church leases, who were thus incapacitated from giving their consent to the presentments. Without the assistance of the magistrates thus excluded, it was almost impossible that any presentment could be made.—The petition was brought up and read. On the question, That it be laid on the table,
Sir J. Stewartsaid, he disapproved altogether of the act respecting grand juries.
General Hartsaid, that the old system of grand jury presentments, which had been abolished, had been productive of much benefit to Ireland, and only required time to bring it to perfection; but the present system rendered the carrying on of public works impossible. When the judges had recommended at the assizes the employment of the poor on public works, it had not been found possible to follow their advice, in consequence of the difficulties thrown in the way of presentments.
Mr. Vesey Fitzgeraldsaid, he would for the present avoid going into any topics that did not immediately arise out of the petition just presented to the House. Whatever might have been the operation of the act, the House and the country would, he had no doubt, at least, do justice to the motives of those by whom it was introduced, to their anxiety for the public interests, and their desire to put down abuses which were disgraceful to the laws and injurious to the morals and the welfare of the Irish people. He, for one, had no other motive than to promote the public good; and he would not tamely or silently submit to any imputations which gentlemen might think fit to cast upon the bill. As to what had fallen from the hon. gentleman who presented the petition, he had nothing to complain of, nor would he now deny but that local causes might have rendered it difficult,
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at a particular time, to carry the provisions of the law into execution, however easy they might be executed in other parts of Ireland, and however well they might have operated. But he would beg the attention of the House to what had fallen from the hon. gentleman in the candid statement he had made. He had said, that most disgraceful abuses and most intolerable burthens pressed upon the people of Ireland before the enactment of the law now complained of. The hon. gentleman who presented the petition, had spoken of him in terms too flattering; but he hoped he might say, without any breach of personal delicacy, that his motives were at least pure, and his zeal untainted by any personal consideration, when he laboured to overturn a system pregnant with public evil. This system might, in the eyes of some, be looked upon with interest and with tenderness—they might bewail its fall as the fall of an old friend—they might describe it as an institution innocent as it was ancient. He had never quarrelled with the institution itself; it was of its abuses that he had always complained; it was those abuses that he had always laboured to overturn. On the different occasions when he had brought the subject before the House, he had admitted the excellency of the ancient laws, but it was manifest that time and corruption had created many abuses, and that new measures were indispensable. But, however necessary these measures might have been, the House would recollect, that the duty of revising the ancient law was not a duty voluntarily undertaken by him—it was not until the reports of different committees had been laid before parliament; it was not until those abuses became manifest, and loudly called for the interference of government, that he, as a member of that government, brought forward some measures to meet an evil so flagrant and so extensive. He was not insensible of the odium which his exertions had collected on him; he had felt it, even in the very county he represented. Government were pledged to investigate the causes of so much public abuse; they did investigate—and he would now challenge those who complained of the present law, whether they could bring the tenth part of the abuses which were proved to flow directly from the old system which they wished to re-establish, against the new law which they wished to

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repeal. He could himself prove many abuses which came immediately under his consideration. On the other hand, that some imperfections might be found in the late law, he did not mean to deny. It was difficult to avoid some errors—it was difficult to have every thing complete and perfect, when we substituted new regulations for those which had existed for. a century before—which had grown up with the institutions of the country—and which had been administered by a body so transitory as that of a grand jury. But he thought it rather hard, that gentlemen who withheld themselves from the investigation, who refused to contribute their labour or their information, should now complain of what they never took any trouble to correct. He did not impute any thing unhandsome to gentlemen, but it too frequently happened, that men could not endure the success of a measure which they had originally opposed; they looked on its success with envy, and hailed its fall with an unworthy pride. The principle he sanctioned was the principle of reform—it was a principle that would not sanction the expenditure of the public money, without having that money strictly accounted for; this was a principle which deserved the support of the House, nor would they entertain the views of those who said, "return to the old system, and throw the labours of the late parliament away." He would not conceal the fact, that in various parts of Ireland objections were made to the grand jury laws as they now stood. It would be un candid on Ills part not to state the fact; the more particularly as he understood some county meetings were about to be held against it. It had been stated, that the provisions of the law were not found practicable: he would ask were they tried? He would lament the inconvenience of the country; but that was not the fault of the law. If it was shown that the provisions of the law could not be put in force, he would be the first to abandon it; but he could not help saying that the assertion made, that the law prevented the passing of presentments and the employment of the people, was a gross misrepresentation. Inconvenience might in some places have occurred, but in most parts of Ireland the law operated to the advantage of the country, and he would implore the House not to touch on the principle of the law—that principle which gave security and protection to the people
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that the public money should be applied to useful purposes, and should not be advanced without being strictly accounted for. Highly as he valued and respected those gentlemen who compose the grand juries of counties in Ireland, he could not forget that they were a transitory, and, therefore, not a responsible body—that, pressed as they were with a variety of other business, they had little time to bestow on presentment accounts; but when those accounts were examined in open court by magistrates at quarter sessions, and when no account could pass without their sanction, he considered that process a great security for the proper appropriation of the money of the people. The hon. gentleman who presented the petition had called on him to amend the law. Could he anticipate the sentiments of others, as he did those of the hon. gentleman—could he suppose, that they, like him, were sincere, he would willingly undertake any duty that the House should impose on him; but he felt that there was an objection, in the minds of some, to the very principle of the law; he felt that their object was not to amend it, but altogether to overthrow the principle upon which it was founded, and he would therefore beg to liberate himself from any further interference. Indeed, it would be but a fruitless effort on the part of any individual. He recollected when the law was first brought in, recommended as it was by the necessity of the case, and aided as it was by the support of government, it was with difficulty that it passed through the House, and he feared that the principle of that law could receive little support from the unassisted efforts of an individual unconnected as he now was with the government of the country. He would therefore decline the task, and he should make but one observation—be would make it with earnestness, and with a deep sense of the importance of the subject. It was, that the great object of the law deserved the protection of his majesty's government, and he implored of them to protect it. It was, he repeated, too much for art unassisted individual; and when he recollected that the object of that law was, to overturn a system, the growth of a century, he was not surprised at the opposition it met; he was not surprised, however he might lament, that he had been so often called to battle both in and out of parliament. He would beg to state, that when a right hon. baro-

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net had formerly brought before this House the state of Ireland, his right hon. friend (Mr. Peel) and himself had pledged themselves to investigate this very subject, as a subject deeply affecting the public and the local interests of that country. He had been, he feared, betrayed into too long a statement; but he assured the House that he had abstained from many things which pressed upon his feelings; he had too much reason not to expect many hostile attempts against the principle of the grand jury laws; whenever they were made, he should rise in his place to combat them—but he felt it right to state that there his interference should end.
Sir H. Parnellsaid, that he concurred with the opinion of the right hon. gentleman opposite, on the subject of the Irish grand jury laws. He therefore conceived it to be his duty to support him on the present occasion, and to resist, with all his ability, the opposition which was then making to the measure which he had so wisely and ably originated and conducted. The right hon. gentleman had filled his post most honourably, and he therefore hoped that the appeal which he had made to the House would have its due effect; and that the useful work which he had commenced would not be deserted. The opposition to it had no foundation on which it could firmly rest. The new law required that no application of money should be made without the examination of the magistracy; and he did not find that any material error had been committed by the promoters of the law in forming that enactment. In the county which he had the honour to represent, he must say that the law had met with the most complete success. The chairman of the magistracy at the sessions in his own county, to whom he had applied for information on the point, had informed him that no difficulty had occurred at their sessions; but that, on the contrary, the operation of the law had been eminently successful. This he stated from his own inquiries; and he feared that gentlemen who censured it, did not always take the precaution of understanding it. At the assizes, before that law had been tried, in the Queen's County, the amount of the presentments was 13,000 l.; but when that law came into operation, the amount of the presentments was only 4,000 l., and 2,000 l. of this sum was disapproved of by the magistrates at the quarter sessions. Thus
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did it work in the Queen's County; and if the law had operated so beneficially there, he could not see why it should not equally operate in other counties. Temporary causes might prevent it for a season, but it was founded on a principle that must ultimately operate for the good of the country. The hon. baronet concluded by expressing his hope, that the request of the right hon. gentleman would be attended to by his majesty's government, and that they would support a measure which promised to promote the morality, and to protect the interests of the Irish people.
Sir George Hillhoped, that as he was the representative of the city of Londonderry, the House would bear with the observations which a sense of duty impelled him to make. He was prepared to argue, from the words of the petition itself that the petitioners were not hostile to the principle on which the present Irish grand jury laws were founded. They prayed, indeed, for the repeal or amendment of the present laws, but they did not wish to get rid of the principle on which they rested. He was truly sorry to hear the declaration of his right hon. friend, that he should decline to take the lead in this matter, because he was aware that the want of his right hon. friend's co-operation would be a serious injury to the cause which he was advocating.
Mr. V. Fitzgeraldsaid, that as far as he could lend his aid, he would willingly assist in any amendments that might be found necessary in the law, provided the principle of the law itself was not attempted to be destroyed. As to the petitioners, nothing was further from his intention than to impute any hostility to them. As to the right hon. baronet, he did not mean to apply any observation to him. He was the gentleman who, in that House, had seconded the measure. He gave it his support: every part of it was submitted to his consideration, for the purpose of receiving his sanction.
Mr. Peelsaid, he observed with regret the inattention and listlessness with which the House were looking upon a question so important to the interest and prosperity of Ireland. For his own part, he conceived that the affairs of Ireland, relatively situated as Ireland was towards us, and with the comparative minority of members which she sent to the British parliament, deserved to engage the serious consideration of the House whenever

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they came before it. He said, that not a single assizes had intervened before the advantages of the present system were clearly and distinctly seen; and he therefore trusted, that it would not be on slight or inconsiderate grounds that they would think of abandoning it. He wished to explain to the House a few of the objections to the old system, with which, most likely, many members, particularly those who had HOW for the first time come into parliament, were not well acquainted. They were greatly mistaken if they thought the powers of grand juries in Ireland did not exceed those of grand juries in England, or that in order to dispose of the money of the land-owners, the same formalities were necessary that were observed in this country. They were probably not aware, that grand juries in Ireland could dispose of the money of land-owners to an almost unlimited amount, by means of what were technically known by the name of presentments: they had in fact done so in many cases for roads, bridges, and various public works; so that, when the direct taxes of Ireland did not exceed 4,000,000 l., the indirect taxes imposed by grand juries were scarcely less than one-fourth of that sum. This was an abuse that loudly called for a remedy; and it was the more necessary, when it was recollected, that the sums required by grand juries were demanded with scarcely any inquiry, upon the mere representation of two individuals. It was a fact that sometimes so many applications of this kind were made to grand juries, that if their whole time at an assizes were devoted only to them, they could not give more than one minute and a half to each presentment. The sums ordered were accounted for in the most irregular manner, and frequently not at all: one of the parties making the presentment was called upon to make oath, and this was deemed sufficient, until he (Mr. Peel) in his official capacity had entered into some investigation into the abuses and frauds practised, and found that in one instance, where an estimate of 19,000 l. for a public road had been laid before the grand jury, the expense had exceeded the estimate by 20,000 l., of which the grand jury had also directed the payment; and the surveyor, had without all warrant, made compensation to parties according to his own notions of the injury sustained, because he thought the jury summoned to assess the damages
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had not assigned a sufficient sum. In fact, there was no end to the abuses under the old system; and if the new law was not perfect, and he was far from saying that it was, at least it was a material improvement, that might be carried further upon subsequent examination of the subject. He hoped, at least, that the old system would not be recurred to, until it had been found that all attempts to remedy its defects were unavailing.
Sir John Newportsaid, that the objections made to the new law were as yet only prospective, for as yet no opportunity of trying it had been afforded. He admitted that some defects might be found in it: experience might prove that, it was even materially deficient; but at least it was much to be preferred to the old system of presentments, which was even fuller of vices than of advantages: if he were required to choose between the one and the other, he would rather resign all the benefits of the old system (and many benefits undoubtedly flowed from some parts of it), than consent to the continuance of the vices which it inevitably occasioned. The great improvement upon the old law was, the publicity given to the presentments, and the compulsion to account for the expenditure, of the money; but he thought a still further amendment might be accomplished, if a clause were introduced to render the pressure of the burthen more equal upon all divisions of the. counties.
Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.

CRIMINAL LAWS—PETITION OF THE QUAKERS COMPLAINING OF THEIR SEVERITY.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, that he had been intrusted with a Petition which he considered it an honour to hold; and which, but for indisposition, he should have laid before the House on an earlier day. It came from a most respectable body, the Society of Friends, commonly called Quakers, and it called upon the House to take into its serious consideration the many laws under which the punishment of death was inflicted. The same body, acting with that sobriety, temper, and moderation, by which they were distinguished, had been on more occasions than one, the first to point out and to reprobate the existence of evils of the highest magnitude. He could not forget—for to forget it would be the

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height of ingratitude—that the Quakers were among the earliest of those who had claimed that the slave trade should be abolished, and had never been backward in promoting any cause favourable to the interests of humanity [Hear, hear!]. The petition, however, deserved the most serious attention, not merely on account of the individuals by whom it was signed, but on account of the importance of the question to which it related. To that question it was impossible to advert, without expressing, though faintly, his deep regret, in common with the whole House and country, that it was now left for him to raise his feeble voice in that cause which had been so often and so ably advocated by one whose name would be recorded among the benefactors of mankind, and whose memory would be fondly cherished by all who reverenced either public or private virtue—[Cheers from all sides]—a man whose general knowledge was only equalled by his professional attainments, and who brought to the subject all the lights of the understanding, and all the advantages of experience. The obligations of the country to the unwearied labours of that most distinguished and lamented individual were acknowledged by friends and enemies—if, indeed, the term friends could be applied to those who loved him with devoted enthusiasm, or enemies to those who, while they resisted his propositions, had admitted the benevolence of their object, and the admirable intentions of him who introduced them. He was a man in whom public and private excellence were so united, and so equally balanced, that it was difficult to say which had the predominance; those who knew him only as a member of parliament would probably hold that his public principles had the predominance, while those who had enjoyed his friendship would feel satisfied that the general benevolence of his views and projects was exceeded by the endearing qualities of his domestic life. The country had been deprived of his assistance when most it was needed, and when he had proceeded but a few steps towards the completion of his object; those steps had been with caution, though without hesitation; and if his progress at first was resisted, opposition in the end was disarmed by the persuasion of his eloquence, and conviction compelled by the force of his talents. Although deprived of its chief advocate, it
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was still to be hoped that many supporters of the cause remained, who, at least, in earnestness and zeal, were not behind the distinguished individual of whom he had spoken: it was, however, most sincerely to be lamented, that after all that had been said and written upon the subject of crimes and punishments since the days of Howard, so little had yet been done to remedy the increasing evil against which the petition was directed. It had not been sufficiently considered that the moral improvement of offenders ought to be the first great object, and that capital punishments would be rendered less frequent most effectually, by diminishing the disposition and the motives to crime. It was allowed that the uncertainty of the infliction—the chance which every offender had at present of escaping—the sort of gambling with life which was kept up, had a great tendency to augment crime; and the late Judge Duller, in a conversation which he well recollected, had truly said, that criminals actually calculated the odds of escaping, or of being detected and punished. It had been said by the highest authority, that men in all situations were disposed to calculate the chances in their own favour; but this was peculiarly the case with those who committed offences, and who were least of all open to reflection, because, in fact, to reflect would be to repent and to mend. He trusted that some individual of competent knowledge, industry, and ability, would yet be found to undertake the reform of the criminal code, and by recommending the alteration of many of our most penal statutes, render capital convictions and executions less frequent. The House and the country had had some experience of the difference between the two systems: by the one, offenders were turned into the paths of crime, and by the other were diverted from it. Proof had been lately afforded of the mode in which females, the most abandoned to vice, had been reclaimed by the almost unaided efforts of one benevolent woman, whose name was too well-known to need repetition [Hear, hear!]. It had been said, that the most excellent things were subject to the greatest corruptions, and it was thought that women were sometimes beyond reformation; but it appeared that the efforts of considerate kindness and attention had been often most effectual where despair had been most indulged. In his earliest

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acquaintance with Mr. Pitt, that great statesman had admitted the necessity of diminishing the number of capital punishments; and if it were then required, how much more vehemently was it called for at the present moment? He took no small share of shame to himself, that he had so long neglected a subject of such importance; and he hoped yet to be able to make some amends for it. The system of transportation was perhaps the worst of the whole; for those who were comparatively innocent, were despatched to a country where they could only mix with those whose crimes had perhaps reached the most gigantic dimensions. The legislature had been criminal itself on this point; it had abandoned its duty; it had allowed guilt to grow to its full dimensions, instead of checking it in its infancy; and the only atonement which it could make to the country was by seriously applying itself to the subject, and endeavouring to diminish the evils which had grown up under the present melancholy system.
The Petition was then brought up and read. It was as follows:—
"To the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled. The respectful Petition of the undersigned, representing the Society of Friends commonly called Quakers, in the United Kingdom, showeth.
"That at the last annual assembly of the said society, the awful subject of the punishment of death, as now prevailing in this empire, arrested the attention of the meeting, inducing serious reflection, with feelings of deep commiseration and regret.
"Acting agreeably to the instructions of the said meeting, your petitioners desire to represent their firm conviction, that the frequency of this punishment, extended, as it is to crimes of very different degress of guilt, is repugnant to the mild and benevolent principles of the Christian religion; and they would further express their belief, that were these principles received and acted upon to their full extent, were the genuine spirit and precepts of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ implicitly obeyed, way would ultimately be made for the abolition of this practice in all cases.
"To the laws, therefore, as they at present stand with regard to this subject, your petitioners earnestly and respectfully entreat that your deliberations may be speedily directed, in order that, in the
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wisdom of the legislature, such a change may be effected in our penal code, as may whilst it shall secure the ends of justice, imprint on it the characters of Christian mercy, righteousness, and love, the firmest bulwarks of society and government.
"Then we reverently trust will the result of your exertions be viewed with acceptance by the Most High, who rules in the kingdoms of the earth, and be a means of obtaining for our beloved country his continued blessing and protection."
Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.

POOR LAWS.
Mr. Sturges Bourne, pursuant to his notice, rose to call the attention of the house to the present state of the Poor Laws, with a view of submitting to it the propriety of re-appointing a committee for the investigation of this important subject. Before, however, he moved a resolution to that effect, it appeared to him to be right to offer a few general observations. An inquiry had been commenced in the last session of the late parliament, and a committee had been appointed, whose labours were necessarily interrupted by its dissolution. This event took place before sufficient time had intervened to enable the committee to extend their inquiries beyond a certain point. It took place too at a time unfavourable in some degree to the success of their inquiries. In as much as the prospects of the country were then clouded, and it was not easy to distinguish temporary from permanent distress. The introduction of any legislative enactment founded upon the reports of the committee had been thus impeded by various circumstances, and the measures which were actually proposed were confined to the remedy of the more obvious and subordinate evils of the system. Those questions which involved the greatest difficulty had been left untouched. It had been thought right, however, to employ the interval in circulating the reports as widely as possible, in order to procure information; and the result was, that plans of improvement had been forwarded from a great number of parishes, generally in favour of some particular change, adapted to their own respective circumstances. This might satisfactorily account for the delay which had taken place in the deliberations of the committee, and for the small progress they had made in providing or discovering any general remedy. One

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measure which was introduced, and received the sanction of that House, was not deemed so unexceptionable in the other: two or three clauses were expunged, and it was then found not to be consistent with their own privileges to pass it with these alterations. Two others, one relative to the establishment of parochial benefit societies, and the second to the subject of settlements, met with an equal failure, from the want of time to give them full consideration. What he now proposed, therefore, was, to re-appoint the committee for the purpose of re-considering these measures. At the same time it ought to be understood, that much more remained to be done. The committee would have, if the object were practicable, to devise some means by which the great and growing evil of the poor-rates—an evil which was proceeding to take the whole produce of the land from the owner without benefiting the poor, but on the contrary, was impairing their morals, independence, and happiness—might be diminished. Not, indeed, that he was one whose hopes were very sanguine of their success. He looked forward, however, to the cause receiving considerable advantage from the labours and co-operations of an hon. and learned gentleman, the member for Winchelsea, (Mr. Brougham). That hon. member had given notice of his intention to bring forward some proposition directed to this radical mischief, and embracing at the same time an equalization of the burden. He could assure him that the committee would hail his assistance, for he believed no man was more eminently qualified for the performance of so arduous and important a task as that which had devolved upon them. It had not been consistent with the hon. and learned gentleman's engagements to become a member of the committee in the last parliament. He should feel great satisfaction in the attendance of the hon. and learned gentleman now, and in the communication of those plans which his judgment had probably since matured. If, after all their exertions and inquiries, they should not attain the great object which they had in view, the public, he trusted, would not attribute their failure to negligence or inactivity. For the purpose, therefore, of adopting, if possible, some measure for the termination of this alarming evil, he should move, "That a committee be appointed to consider of the Poor-Laws,
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and to report their observations thereupon from time to time."
Mr. Curwensaid, the hon. gentleman who had just sat down was entitled not only to the individual thanks of every member of that House, but to the approbation of the country at large, for the ability and perseverance with which he applied himself to this subject. It was, therefore, with some pain that he rose to oppose the motion for a committee. For, though he thought that, in the first instance, the appointment of a committee was the best course that could be resorted to, in order to bring sufficient evidence before the House, yet, as there now appeared to be a complete detail on this most important and alarming subject, he conceived they ought at once to meet the question fairly. Nothing could be done in the committee to remedy the evils complained of; they could only be removed by a great and comprehensive view of the subject, taken by those whose situation in the state gave them an opportunity of investigating the question, with a reference to all the various relations of the country, and who alone were able to take upon themselves the responsibility of such measures as appeared best calculated to effect this object. Out of the very inherent principles of the poor-laws arose much of the evil of which the country complained; for certainly, when these laws took out of the hands of individuals the trouble of providing for themselves, they rendered them more careless of their own personal welfare. This was evident from the commencement of the system, when means were taken to provide for pauperism, instead of preventing it—in the first instance, by the operation of shame, and ultimately by the assistance of terror. Poor-houses were erected, and held out in terrorem—the happiness and comfort of the individuals immured in these receptacles, were sacrificed without remorse. This measure, however, was found to be inefficient, the number of paupers daily augmented, and the evil continued to increase. This demoralizing system, cost the country 2,000,000 l. per annum 25 years ago; but since that period, the expense was more than quadrupled. The evil was of such a nature, that temporizing measures could do no good. To be counteracted, its true sources must be explored. To three great causes he attributed the present situation of the country, with reference

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to the poor-rates. First, excessive taxation; second, the depreciation of money; and thirdly, the great rise in the price of the necessaries of life. These were the causes of the existing distress; and those who imagined they would come out of the committee with a remedy for any but the minor abuses, attached themselves, he was afraid, to a hope, that, in the end, would not be realized. The hon. gentleman himself admitted that his hopes were very feeble. For his own part, he cherished no hope whatever from the adoption of any measure, except the removal of the causes by which the present state of things was occasioned. That could only be done by those who had it exclusively in their power to take effectual means for putting an end to the system to which the actual evil could be traced. In the course of 25 years, the increase of wages had been one fourth; and, in the same time, the rise in the price of provisions was one-third. Salt, leather, soap, and coals, were articles of primary importance to a working man. Now, upon a fair calculation, it would appear that to procure these, one-ninth of the whole of his income was swallowed up. If this country was to be preserved in that proud situation, which, from the nature of her free constitution, she ought always to be placed in, it could only be done by meliorating the situation of the working classes of the people. He could not join in the cheering prospect held out by the noble lord opposite in the statement he had made, on a former evening, relative to the situation of the country. It was, he believed, in a deplorable state, and could only be relieved by guarding against every attempt at an undue or unnecessary expenditure of the public money, from the crown down to the humblest officer in the state. Looking throughout the country, he believed it would be found, that the money paid for the maintenance of the poor had increased and not diminished in the last year. That branch of taxation, exacted by the poor-laws, though nominally paid by the people at large, came in reality from the landholders. Whatever was paid by the farmer was only nominally so paid. If a farmer paid 100 l. a year rent and 25 l. for poor-rates, the intrinsic value of his farm may be considered to be 125 l.; so that though nominally the poor-rates were paid by the tenant, they were in reality paid by the landlord. Would it not then
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be better for all ranks at once to meet and take this burthen on themselves, and exonerate the working classes from the degradation of participating in it?—However strenuous in his opposition to a continuance of the property tax, which he considered as enabling the government to persevere in a scale of expenditure calculated to exhaust the resources of the country; yet, for the purpose of removing taxes destructive of the happiness and comfort of the great mass of the people, he should not hesitate in supporting a property-tax, solely and exclusively confined to the removal of burthens which paralyzed the industry and destroyed the happiness and independence of the labouring community. Our national pre-eminence depended on our preserving the independence of our national character—that once destroyed, and we should rapidly descend into the scale of other nations. He did not wish to take the burthen wholly from the shoulders of the landholder—he was only desirous that it should be fairly and equally borne. If the present system went on, it would be impossible to prevent the whole kingdom from being pauperised. If compulsory charity must be resorted to, he could see no reason why the great bulk of the monied interest, and the whole of the trading community, should not bear a portion of the weight. It would be nothing more than just to take a part of the burthen from the landholder, and let it be supported by the property of the country at large. The state taxes on the monied interest were about is. in the pound, while the demand on the landed proprietor for poor-rates was, on the average, 5s. He would, however, take it at 3s. which, with the expense of collecting rents, repairs of farm buildings, county cesses and losses, might, on a most moderate scale, be estimated at 4s. There were besides other charges amounting to 4s. more, making a total charge of eleven shillings; so that the landed proprietor received but 9s. out of his pound, while the individual, whose property was funded, got 16 s. In the same way, if they took 12 s. per week as the wages of the labourer, they would find that bread alone, for a family of five persons, amounted to 8s. which with rent and fuel, took up the whole, except about 2s. per week, which was all he had to furnish himself with clothes, and all other of the various necessary articles. The consequence was,

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that the labourer, even under the most fortunate circumstances, could not afford a sufficiency of bread to his family, but was compelled to resort to potatoes for the greater part of his subsistence. He considered, in one point of view, the growth of potatoes as a great blessing to any country in case of famine; but he looked upon it as a decided evil, when the potatoe formed the principal article of a nation's food. Cheapness of food tended to the increase of population (as was evinced in a neighbouring country) in a degree that could not be supported by any capital, however great. To the disgrace of the agricultural part of the community, the agricultural labourer was not fairly dealt by, except in the northern parts of this kingdom. The cruelty of the system adopted towards them was equal to its folly. The price of wages was regulated with reference to the young unmarried man; he was made the standard; than which nothing could be more unfair—the fate of wages was calculated on the most parsimonious scale as to the sum which would weekly support a single man—while to the married man an allowance of 2s. to the wife, and 1s. 6d. to each of the children was made from the parish purse: thus a bounty was given on improvident marriages, and the single man was prevented the possibility of making any provision for the married state. Although he deprecated the abuse which had grown out of parliamentary discussions, he agreed in the principle laid down on a former occasion by the noble lord, that it was better a man should be employed in opening a trench, if he were immediately after to be filled up again, sooner than that he should be supported in idleness. But this principle had been pushed to an unwise extent in the country, and its operation had been productive of injurious consequences. The farmer, aware of the impression made by this sentiment, turned off a large portion of the workmen he usually employed for the express purpose of receiving them back with a bounty from the parish. Thus had the middling classes become burthened with a new tax to exonerate the farmer from a large portion of wages he ought to have paid. Justice was not done to the great body of agricultural labourers, unless they were efficiently protected. The manufacturing classes also deserved protection, though the House had not always dealt leniently with them. If,
[406
when laws were made to punish combinations amongst the men, their provisions had also been directed against combinations amongst the masters, he would have agreed in the justice of the enactment. The agricultural labourer was in the same situation. Dispersed abroad, it was not in his power to combine—and his necessities were so great, that he could not go on for one moment without attending to his work. His master, however, might do without him, till he should be starved into submission, without injury. This was not the case with the manufacturer, who was in a much better situation. He conceived it would be wise if the minimum of wages to the agricultural labourer with reference to small districts, were regulated at petty sessions. It could not be done for very extensive districts, as, where the space was large, the rate of wages must necessarily vary. The magistrate would be better able to decide what sum ought to be given to a labourer, than to adjudge the rate of wages which a manufacturer ought to receive; since there were many considerations connected with trade, of which it was probable he would not be aware. By a more liberal apportionment of wages, of from 4 to 5s. per week, in those districts where a considerable portion of wages was supplied from the poor-rates, he conceived the existing poor-rates might be reduced 2,000,000 l. annually. There were parts of the bill brought in by the hon. gentleman which he thought were extremely beneficial; for instance, that part which related to the removal of persons who had procured settlements where they had no right to them, nor had any legal settlements in the kingdom. There were also provisions that would probably prevent the mismanagement observable in the administration of the Poor laws. But that any great, any decided benefit would be derived from the measure, he confessed he did not believe. The principal relief to the country would be found by making some change in the law of settlement, by which large sums now lavished in litigation might be saved. This, he conceived, was the largest item that could be saved by any regulation, which fell short of removing the grand sources of the evil. The sum to be saved by other means was not likely to be more than 500,000 l., or one-sixteenth of 8,000,000 l. which the poor-rates annually require. Great were the complaints from all parts of the kingdoms,

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and most grievous was it to those who were struggling under the weight of the poor-rates, that so large a sum should be expended in supporting the offspring, of crime. Bastardy had alarmingly increased within a short period; but a few years ago it was estimated at 1 to 28. It would now be found as 1 to 14. The number of illegitimate children annually born amounted to little if any thing short of 6,400, creating a charge of about half a million. The laws had been so relaxed, that bastardy was become in a great measure a crime without a punishment. Some check seemed indisputably necessary, as well for morals as for relieving the country from so grievous a burthen. The committee which had sat two years, the whole of whose proceedings were then before the House, had done nothing that did not fall far short of the great object he had in view—nothing had been even glanced at which in any degree was calculated to stop the rapid increase of the demoralizing system; the evil must be deracinated, or the real property, industry, and morals of the nation, would equally become its victims—and, unless government intended to let the evil go on increasing, from day to day, they would devise some means of reducing that weight of taxation which pressed the people down, and was the primary cause of the present distress. I am aware, said Mr. Curwen, of the state of the country—I know and lament that its resources are inadequate to its expenditure; that in doing justice and being faithful to its engagements, it cannot relinquish a shilling of its revenue—I do not ask it—Yet the only hope the country has is, that ministers would diminish the taxation which presses so heavily on the lower classes, and that they would place it somewhere else. A system of taxation which bears on the first necessaries of life, is in every point of view impolitic. Labour is rarely paid beyond what is barely sufficient for the maintenance of a working man and his family; taxing, therefore, the necessaries of life, presupposes a surplus beyond what his indispensable necessity requires. If no such surplus exist, and which is the case in few instances, it must operate a rise in the price of labour, or force the individual into a state of pauperism. The cost of labour in Great Britain, compared with what it is on the continent, places our manufacturers in a state of imminent
[408
jeopardy. I pretend not to calculate how long superior capital and skill may successfully combat these disadvantages, but certain I am such a state of things ought not to exist, if they can be removed. Every consideration of humanity and policy demand of government, revisions of the present ruinous system of taxation—a large portion of what is paid in the shape of poor-rates, is in truth no other than a contribution for exonerating the labouring classes from taxation. This could not be done by a committee. They could not have the information, neither could they digest those measures, which, while the revenue was protected, and prevented from falling short, would by their operation, relieve the great body of the people; and enable the legislature to make an effectual alteration in the system, The minister who should have the courage and the patriotism fairly to contemplate the dangers which threaten the empire, and succeed in effecting a remedy, would be entitled to the gratitude of his country, and would command my cordial support.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he did not suppose that the proposition of his hon. friend was intended to lead to a general discussion of the system of Poor laws. If the subject was to be discussed in that House, it would be more advantageous to debate it, when the bill which his hon. friend meant to submit to their consideration, was introduced. That bill would contain seven or eight of the most important propositions connected with the subject, and, in considering it, they would be able to point out those parts of the improved sytem, in the propriety of which they agreed, and those also which they considered faulty. The hon. gentleman who spoke last had argued the question rather as a matter of financial arrangement, than as a subject connected with the Poor laws. If the hon. gentleman had formed any measure in his own mind; if he had discovered any happy expedient, by which the burthen could be removed from that part of the community which they most wished to relieve, and thrown on another portion, by whom it would not be felt; then he could assure the hon. gentleman, that he had found out a plan, which had not presented itself to the chancellor of the exchequer, or to any of his majesty's ministers. Before the hon. gentleman asked ministers to do that, which, he stated, they alone could effect,

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it would have been well if he had communicated to them what system it was that he had revolved in his mind, and wished them to adopt. He hoped the House would not attribute it to any supineness on the part of government, that the question of the Poor Jaws was not taken up by them in the way recommended. Government were deeply sensible of the great importance of the subject—of the evils arising from the system, and the necessity of some remedy; but they thought it better to have it handled in such a way as would identify it with every part of the House, by taking it up in the manner it was. He differed very much from the opinion of the hon. gentleman, when he stated, that it was better such a question should be taken up by the government. The most wise and proper mode of proceeding was, to handle it in such a way as would excite something like common cause in its support. If the government were to introduce a measure upon the subject, the consequence would be to excite some jealousy; it would have the effect of making a remedy appear harsh, which, coming from another quarter, would be received as a boon. He would appeal to the hon. gentleman and the others who constituted the committee, whether government was not as zealous in assisting their endeavours, as if it was a measure proposed by the government itself. If the hon. gentleman had any good and efficacious plan to offer, he should be willingly seconded in it with all the influence of government. It would not be wise, however, for ministers themselves to undertake the responsibility of any extensive measure with respect to the Poor laws, though they were anxious to concur in any thing that might be judged beneficial. Much had already been done in consequence of the labours of the committee. The administration of the laws was considerably improved, and no doubt, before long, other improvements would take place. He perhaps saw the evils of the system in as strong a point of view as the hon. gentleman on the other side of the House; and the importance, by all practicable means, of making the people moral, industrious, and happy; but he saw, at the same time, the great difficulty of dealing properly with the question. It was not, however, fair to suppose that the government acted with supineness, because they did not propose some measure upon a subject through which the com-
[410
mittee did not yet completely see their way. He was far from wishing to encourage false hopes, or to present such a glittering view of the prospects of the country as might tend to mislead; but he would assert, that, though some parts of the country were still suffering, and there was no time when this was not the case, the state of public affairs was highly prosperous. Did any country ever emerge so suddenly from the state of depression to which it had fallen? He did not fear contradiction when he asserted, that the trade and commerce of the country had undergone a fundamental improvement. This appeared even in the present state of the manufacturing poor. They were not now so great a burthen on the poor-rates as before. There was nothing that could be done on this important subject that might not be expected from the labours of the committee. Never were there individuals more anxiously devoted to the discharge of the important duties imposed upon them. If they could not effect the object so much desired, it would be vain to expect it from others. For these reasons he must disclaim all idea of having the measures that might be judged proper, upon this subject, brought forward by government in any specific shape. As the remedy hinted at by the hon. gentleman opposite seemed to involve a question of taxation, he did not feel inclined to meddle with it. Matters of that nature belonged more properly to the chancellor of the exchequer than to himself, and the hon. gentleman, in his opinion, would not do right unless he communicated his important discovery to the person with whom such business more properly rested.
Mr. Walter Burrellthought that much advantage might be derived from the labours of the committee. The evil arising from the Poor laws was one of a most serious nature, and the unequal manner in which they pressed upon different places was not the smallest part of it. He could not agree with the noble lord in thinking that the state of the country, with regard to the poor, was so much improved. In parts of Sussex, in a population of 18,000 persons, the poor-rates had increased from 7,000 l. to 16,000 l. In his own parish, that of West Grinstead, which consisted of 5,000 acres, the rental of which was 4,000 l., the poor-rates of this year amounted to 4,500 l. The whole of the labours were almost dependent on parochial relief; and young un-

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married men, who were most willing to work, were, for want of employment, obliged to go to the workhouse. The same melancholy condition was to be found throughout the whole part of the county, called the Weald of Sussex, with the exception of those places in the vicinity of the hop-grounds. Unless, therefore, some immediate measure of relief was granted, the lands would be deserted by the farmers; they would become waste, and the proprietor must be ruined. If the landholder, was thus destroyed, where, he must ask, could the fund holder obtain his interest [Hear, hear!]? It was impossible that a country could be in a prosperous situation, when all its young single men were placed in workhouses for want of employment.
Lord Castlereaghthought that the statement of the hon. member did not contradict any thing that he had said. He had compared the present state of the country, as far as it was affected by the poor laws, with its state two years ago; but he admitted that, in the county of Sussex, the pressure of the poor-rates was at present very severe.
Mr. P. Methuensaid, he was anxious to make a few observations on the prospects which, the appointment of a committee held out to the country. He felt that he should be guilty of a delusion, if he considered any legislative measure, such as was intended, likely to meet the extent of the mischief. The fact was, that while taxation continued undiminished, the appalling evils of the poor-rates could not be arrested. The labourer was starving, and the gentleman was struggling. Taxation was the cause why the landlord raised his rent, the farmer his farm produce, and why the labourer suffered; but the latter was the principal victim. Such was the actual state of things in the West of England, and such it would continue, until the efficient remedy, a diminution of taxation, was applied. The House might pass laws, and endeavour to enforce regulations, but the reverse of the picture would not be seen, until the labourer could rely for remuneration, not from the sluggish hand of parochial charity, but from his own honest industry. He did not expect impossibilities from his majesty's government, but he at the same time felt, that it was their duty to apply some efficient correction of the mischief; they should even outrun the exertions of parliament, because, in his judgment,
[412
they possessed the power. Convinced he was, that as long as the expenditure continued undiminished, the distress of the country would remain unrelieved.
Mr. Long Wellesleythought that the question was reduced to a very small and narrow compass, and that the House had only to determine whether they should vote the resumption of the committee. He felt that he had a public duty to discharge, and he thought he could not discharge that duty more conscientiously than by voting against the resumption of the committee. There was no individual, however obscure, but knew that the poor in this country were in a most abject state, and that it was necessary to amend the laws on the subject. If the committee had been appointed to amend the laws, he should vote for it; but as the laws were admitted to be the best that could be framed, that could not be the object of its appointment. In reply to what an hon. gentleman had stated respecting the use of potatoes, he should only say, that he had a little Irish blood in his veins, and did not think there was any evil to be apprehended from an increase of population. He thought that adequate employment might be found in the country for the whole labouring class of the community. The state of the poor, he thought, required some measure emanating from the executive government, and he could not conceive a greater object for the attention of government. He thought that if any measure were proposed by the administration of the country, it would be hailed as a happy omen by the whole nation, and would not be regarded with apprehension and jealousy, as was apprehended by the noble lord.
Mr. Alderman Waithmansaid, he did not intend to detain the House long. He apprehended, that he did not understand the subject so well as those hon. gentlemen who had spoken before him; but he thought himself called on to mention a few facts which would disprove the statement of the noble lord. He could not believe that the country was in so flourishing a situation as had been represented by the noble lord, because he had the testimony of his eyes and ears to the contrary. In the parish in which he resided when in the country, there was an increase of distress and of the number of poor. The want of gardens attached to their cottages, was a great misfortune to many poor people. In his parish there

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were about two hundred cottages, and not one of them had a bit of ground. In this case, when they subsisted almost entirely on potatoes, and had no ground to cultivate for themselves, what could restrain them from committing depredations on neighbouring potatoe-fields? He observed, that from the number of enclosure bills which passed through that House, proprietors of land were more desirous to let their grounds in parks, than to accommodate the poor with cottages and gardens. The ward which he represented contained five parishes, and he had occasion to know, that the pressure of the poor-rates in all those parishes was most severe. He presided at the board by which the people were summoned for their poor-rates; and he had known cases in which numbers had been summoned, over and over again, in consequence of their inability to pay: it required, in fact, continued efforts to keep them out of the workhouses. He must have something better than Custom-house books to convince him that the country was in a flourishing condition; for when that was asserted, he understood it to imply the general diffusion of comfort and happiness. As to the measure now proposed, he was convinced that it was impossible to give any real relief to the poor, but by altering the present system, and reducing the taxes which oppressed the country. That was the object to which he should wish to see the attention of parliament directed.
Colonel Woodwas happy to assure the worthy alderman, that the garden ground to the cottages had not escaped the notice of the committee. In the report of the committee it was strongly recommended, that all cottages should be furnished with gardens at a cheap rate—a recommendation which he hoped would be attended to. In the course of the discussion, he had heard several remarks which were worthy of the consideration of the committee, but not a reason had been given for not renewing it. The county which he had the honour to represent, felt peculiarly alive with regard to the law of settlement introduced in the last session, by which a residence of three years had become necessary previous to the being entitled to obtain relief. His constituents were certainly alarmed at any meditated change from the present system; and in consequence of the representations which had, from all quarters,
[414
been made to him upon the subject, he should be very cautious as to the manner in which he would give his vote. He thought, that to the tyrannical administration of the laws of settlement, might be traced more than half the existing evils now growing from the Poor laws. In short, the whole time of the quarter sessions had been occupied with an attention to the arrangement and transfer of the poor under these laws; and he should even prefer going back to the original establishment of the Poor laws, as the only means of doing any thing, with speedy or permanent good to the community.
Mr. Mansfieldsaid, that he had had too long experience as a magistrate, in a large and populous district, not to be as well acquainted with the sufferings of the poor, and as feelingly alive to their distress, as any of the hon. gentlemen who had addressed the House. It was from a deep sense of their distress, that he concurred in the re-appointment of the committee, which he hoped would receive a wide extension, and attentively and zealously direct its vigilance to this most important subject. Before its re-appointment, however, he would beg to suggest to them, that they would meet, not merely to consider the weight with which the poor-rates pressed upon the landed interest, but would have to consider how they might best alleviate the misery and ameliorate the condition of the poor. He could take upon himself to say, that in the district in which he had acted as a magistrate, not only had he found the instances of imposition on the part of the poor comparatively few, but that he had found them generally grateful for the relief which they received; and he, for one, was satisfied, that all the relief they received was due to them, as it kept them from starving or from plunder. He objected to a statement which had been made by an hon. gentleman in the course of the debate, of the severe and exclusive pressure which he had asserted the land to suffer from the poor-rates, for he had forgot to state how much the land had benefit ad by the poor when their condition was better, and had enabled them to maintain themselves by their industry. He concluded by strongly calling upon the committee, while they considered the landed interest, not to forget the interests of the poor.
The motion was agreed to, and a committee, to consist of the following mem-

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bers, was appointed, viz., Mr. Sturges Bourne, Mr. Curwen, lord Castlereagh, Mr. Ashhurst, sir T. Baring, Mr. Bathurst, lord W. Bentinck, Mr. Brand, Mr. Cartwright, Mr. T. Courtenay, lord Cranborne, Mr. Dickinson, Mr. C. Dundas, Mr. Fitzhugh, Mr. Davies Gilbert, Mr. Holford, Mr. Huskisson, lord Lascelles, Mr. Shaw Lefevre, Mr. Frankland Lewis, Mr. Morritt, sir John Osborn, sir W. Rowley, Mr. W. Smith, Mr. Holme Sumner, Mr. Wood, Mr. Walter Burrell, Mr. F. Douglas, Mr. Macpherson Grant, Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Tomline, sir John Riddell, Mr. Wodehouse, and Mr. Shelton.

TRIAL BY BATTLE ABOLITION BILL.
The Attorney Generalrose to submit the motion of which he had some days since given notice to that House. The law as it then stood with regard to the Wager of Battle had, as he believed, never before been regularly brought under the consideration of parliament. Indeed, the only consideration which he ever knew to have been bestowed upon the subject, had taken place only when particular circumstances had excited the passions and prejudices of men, as had been particularly exemplified in the last appeal of battle which had been made during the course of the past year. The subject, however, had never undergone a calm and deliberate investigation, and in all human probability would have still remained upon the statute book, had not those circumstances, which would be fresh in the recollection of the House, induced him to direct his immediate attention to the question. Here the hon. and learned gentleman entered into a detailed and luminous history of the origin, progress, and changes that had occurred in the Wager of Battle, and observed, that by the existence of such a law, every individual would have it in his power not only to be the avenger of his wrongs, but the arbiter, and often the unmerciful arbiter, of the life and happiness of others. The Wager of Battle as it then existed was both cruel and absurd, and contrary to every principle of justice. The appeal in cases of murder would be seen to be a most violent outrage upon every law of justice. And for the simplest, yet most satisfactory, of all reasons—namely, that when a party had been once tried and acquitted, he never should undergo the ordeal of a second trial for the same offence. But by the law of Wager of Battle, it could be demanded
[416
by dissatisfied or revengeful parties; and so far it tended to prejudice the law of the land, and rendered its most salutary provisions for the public good almost nugatory or abortive. The detail of the operations of so barbarous a law, could not prove of any particular interest to the House. Indeed, its provisions generally, except to the members of that profession to which he had the honour of belonging, were totally unfamiliar; and he only rapidly ran over them, in order the more clearly to demonstrate the propriety—if in an enlightened age any such demonstration could be necessary—of its entire and immediate abolition. Cruelty and absurdity had both marked its progress in every stage, from the false and unjust principle on which it rested, to the spirit of vengeance which it both engendered, and often had gratified. Its various anomalies could be adduced in proof of its absurdity—a sufficient motive for its abolition, even if the more imperious motives of its iniquitous and immoral tendency had not existed to call for its extinction from the statute book. However dry and unentertaining such subjects would seem to many, yet the law of the Wager of Battle loudly called for the interference of the legislature. Various alterations had taken place, from time to time, in that strange and cruel law, although a law, perhaps, in some instances, which would not be found to be entirely unsuited to the practices of the ages in which it had been used. But still, so absurd and cruel had its operation been generally considered, that appeals of murder had fallen into a sort of desuetude for very considerable period. As he had a before stated to the House, his attention had been first particularly drawn to the subject, in consequence of a notorious transaction that could not be very easily forgotten by any honourable member whom he had then the honour of addressing. If the law was to be altered, the appeal itself should be abolished, and the barbarous mode of going through it would necessarily fall with the appeal. With regard to appeals in robbery, little remained to be then stated. Previous to the period of Henry 8th, appeals in robbery had been the principal, if not the only method by which stolen property could be recovered; but since that reign, restitution for stolen goods could be obtained, and usually had been, without the interference of a law so monstrous. Every

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attempt that bad been made for the improvement of that law, only further tended to display its unspeakable absurdities; and, as a proof of the singularity of its enormity, he should state one of its operations to the House. If a man had, from passion or any other cause, produced an injury to a woman, the last and perhaps the worst that could have befallen her; but still willing to make her all the reparation in his power, offered her himself in marriage, and had been accepted, still the next of kin could enter a prosecution against him, demand his appeal of battle, and eventually perhaps have him prosecuted to death. Here, then, appeared not only the absurdity, but the crying injustice of that law, which that House and the country now wished to see abolished. But the great evil of the Wager of Battle generally had been, that it gave to a vindictive party a power he never should have had, and that, without the possibility of the slightest interference upon the part of the government or the Crown! If a party had been convicted at common law, the Crown, if it perceived sufficient motives for so doing, could have exerted its royal prerogative in the extension of mercy, and issued the royal pardon to a penitent individual. But by the law of Wager by Battle, the Crown and the government were denied the highest attribute they could possibly wish to have enjoyed—that of dealing justice in mercy to all who had endeavoured by contrition to deserve it. In fact, vengeance or avarice were the judges to decide with Wager of Battle; and, under all the circumstances, the trial by appeal could neither be made equitable nor just. The second part of his intended bill related to trial by battle in writs of right; and he was convinced that the absurdity of the practice in this case was so apparent to every member of the House, that it was unnecessary for him to detain them with any further observations. He should therefore conclude with moving, "That leave be given to bring in a bill to abolish Appeals of Murder, Felony, or Mayhem; and Wager of joining Issue and Trial by Battel, in Writs of Right."
Mr. Denmansaid, that it would be presumptuous in him to go over the grounds so ably gone over by his hon. and learned friend; he rose, therefore, for no purpose of discussion, but merely to state bow cordially he concurred in every thing that had been said, and to expres a hope
[418
that the great reform contemplated would be adopted by the unanimous vote of the House. The appeal of murder, which was proposed to be abolished, was always an appeal from a jury, that decided without prejudice, to one which must of necessity be prejudiced. This would have been particularly the case with the appeal which had suggested this change in the old law, where he was sure an impartial jury could not have been found. The same was the case in the last appeal for the riots in St. George's-fields, where a person was tried at the instance of the widow of the deceased, whose abandonment of the prosecution was purchased by 500 l. He seconded the motion most cordially, and hoped that the spirit of the age, which made this reform necessary, would not stop here, but follow up the principle of improvement, in other parts of our criminal administration which cried aloud for revision and reform.
Mr. Bernalrose, particularly as a member of that profession to which the hon. and learned attorney-general had proved himself so great an ornament, to thank him for the manly eloquence with which, he had prefaced his motion for leave to bring in a bill to abolish the barbarous law of Wager of Battle; but he begged leave to suggest to him that he believed the right of appeal could be still demanded in cases of treason committed beyond the seas, and if so, that he would also have the right abolished in that as well as in all other cases.
The Attorney Generalapprehended that appeal in cases of treason, was totally abolished.
Mr. Bernalsaid, he knew it was abolished in this country, but he believed it still extended to treason committed beyond seas.
Leave was given to bring in the bill. It was accordingly brought in, and read a first time.

OFFICES IN REVERSION.
Earl Grosvenorrose, in consequence of his notice to make a motion on the subject of Offices in Reversion. What he then proposed was merely a motion for reversions granted by the Crown, but he now meant to extend his object further. The motion
[386
which he had first to propose was so similar to others which had formerly been agreed to by their lordships, that he could not anticipate any difference of opinion upon the subject. With respect to the second motion, it might perhaps be thought, by some, liable to objection; though, as its object was merely to obtain information, he could not see any solid ground for resisting it. He was not going to propose a bill for putting an end to the granting of sinecures, or for suspending the power of granting them for a limited period, though that was a proposition which had already obtained their lordships' approbation: all he meant to ask for was, that an account might be presented to their lordships, showing what offices had been granted in reversion during the last year. Their lordships had formerly obtained, on orders they had made, accounts of grants in reversion for a much longer period. There could, therefore, be no objection, in principle, to the motion he had now to submit. It was true, that after what had passed, both in this and the other House of Parliament, on the subject of reversions, he could not expect any thing else than a blank return to his motion; still it was desirable that the return should be made, in order that parliament and the public might be informed of the fact. Publicity could not fail to be of the greatest advantage in this, as well as in other affairs connected with the administration of the government. It was the best prevention of abuse; and however well disposed ministers might be, one of the best securities for their acting properly was, the knowledge that every transaction in which they were engaged must be submitted to the tribunal of public opinion. From a due respect to that opinion, he believed his majesty's ministers had for some time abstained from granting any places in reversion, except one which, notwithstanding the nature of the office, and the person to whom it was granted, he could not help regarding as a violation of the principle that no farther reversions were to be granted. Besides the motion he mentioned yesterday for an account of the grants in reversion during last year, he meant to move for a return of grants made by other authorities. He thought that the same rule which had been applied to grants direct from the Crown, should be made applicable to public bodies of every description. It was their lordships'

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duty to endeavour to correct all kinds of abuses; and it was, above all things, desirable, that questions of this kind should be laid completely bare; for if any thing more than another tended to disgust the public, it was an endeavour at concealment in public affairs. He hoped, therefore, that there would be no objection to his second proposition. His great object in wishing to prevent grants in reversion, was, to remove that bar to the abolition of sinecures and useless places which these grants presented. Much had been already done towards the abolition of sinecures; but their lordships would recollect, that in the bill which had been introduced on this subject, it was the wish of the noble and learned lord to except three offices, namely, that of the clerk of parliament, the clerk of the pleas of the court of Exchequer, and the lord justice general of Scotland. These offices had still been preserved. There were, besides, as he had already said, several offices in the gift of public bodies, of which it had been the practice to grant reversions. Of these, he apprehended parliament ought to have cognizance; and it was with a view to obtain necessary information for their lordships, that he HOW submitted two motions. First, for a return of all grants in reversion of offices held under the Crown, since the 1st of January, 1818. Secondly, for a similar return of all grants of offices in reversion by any public authority whatever.—The first motion was agreed to.
The Lord Chancellordoubted whether the second motion was so framed as to produce any practical result. He was at a loss to know what the noble lord meant by the general term public authorities. Did he mean departments of state, public boards, and courts of law? It appeared to him that it would be necessary for the noble earl to specify what bodies or persons he meant by public authorities.
Earl Grosvenorwished the motion to be as general as possible, and for that reason had chosen the term public authorities. He was desirous of obtaining a return of grants in reversion from every public body by which such grants were made.
The Earl of Liverpoolthought that the motion must be differently framed. No such term as public authorities was known in the law or constitution of the country. How was the proper officer to proceed when such an order, framed according to
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the noble earl's motion, should be put into his hand? It would be impossible for him to know on whom he ought to serve it.
Lord Hollanddid not think the objection to the motion valid. There were a great many acts of parliament in which the term public authorities occurred; it was, therefore, singular enough to assert that it wag unknown to the law and constitution of the country. He was of opinion that parliament had a right to call upon all public authorities, generally, for any information they could afford; but if a particular specification were necessary, the noble secretary of state was, from his office, better qualified than any other person to say how that ought to be done, and might teach his noble friend how to reach his object.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the House certainly possessed the right of calling for information; but when a noble lord proposed that such a call should be made, he ought at least to explain distinctly what he meant to call for.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, he had purposely framed the motion in as general terms as possible, because it was his object to reach all grants in reversion of sinecures and places of every kind. His wish was, to obtain returns of those grants which were not made directly by the Crown: but as he understood that there was no intention: to oppose the principle of this motion, he would withdraw it, with the view of bringing it forward, on a future occasion, in a shape which he hoped would be more satisfactory to their lordships.
The motion was then withdrawn.