Sitting of 1 December 1819

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhaving moved the order of the day for going into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. Broughamsaid, he felt that he could not conscientiously discharge his duty without opposing the motion. The present was a parliamentary and constitutional occasion for the statement of grievances. As often as a supply was demanded by the crown, so often was any member of that House entitled to state the grievances of the people. In opposing the present motion, therefore, he was only exercising that constitutional right with which, in any case of emergency, every member was invested. The great objection and grievance which he had to state, was the extraordinary and unprecedented haste with which ministers seemed resolved to hurry the new measures through parliaments. If they were temporary or local in their character it would be a different matter; but it was because they would effect a great and a permanent change in the constitution; it was, in short for the reasons which he had mentioned yesterday, although they had had no effect on the noble lord, that he considered it highly indecorous to' urge them with such unprecedented dispatch. The House was now at a notice of eight and forty hours—about twelve of which had been passed in debate on another part of those measures —it was at a notice of thirty-six hours to go into the consideration of the details of the new system. It was to be called upon to-morrow night, in discussing the first of the proposed bills,

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to enter into a complete investigation and discussion of the whole of those measures by which it was proposed that the law of England should be changed in some of its most essential points, and changed for ever. This was not only indecorous as it regarded the House, it was highly indecent and unjust as it regarded the people. For to propose to change the Jaws, by which the rights and liberties of the people had been hitherto projected; and to change them, not to be restored when the sup-posed exigency, which required the change, should have passed away but for ever, without allowing such a delay as might give the people an opportunity of considering the subject, and making their feelings and opinions upon it clearly manifest, was a denial of that to which the people were justly entitled. What did the noble lord propose to do? He would not grant the delay of a single day! He persevered in bringing on to-morrow the second reading of the bill already introduced into the House, before it was possible that any part of the country, except the metropolis, could be aware of the nature of the proposition which parliament was entertaining. That was not the course pursued in 1795. Violent as were the measures then proposed, a delay—he believed of three weeks—was allowed for their consideration, although the pressure of the emergency was certainly as great as in the present instance. For these reasons, he protested against the present motion for going into a committee of supply, as he had a constitutional right to do; although he would not take the sense of the House upon it. If the House were willing to adopt the proposed measures without due discussion; if they were so tired of the free constitution of England, that they would not deliberate before they not merely suspended, but absolutely overthrew it, he and his honourable friends were in vain endeavouring to discharge their duty to themselves and the country, by attending from day to day to attempt to prevail on the House to perform its sacred obligations to the public.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply,
Sir G. Warrenderproceeded to address the committee. He said he could anticipate no opposition to the resolutions which he held in his band, which merely
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provided for the requisite number of seamen for the year. He ought to mention that in one branch of the service, he meant the royal marines, there was an increase of 2,000 men; so that, in future, the whole duty of the dock-yards would be executed by that corps. It would be found of the greatest service to increase the royal marines to the number of 8,000 men; by which means, if any cause should arise, an efficient permanent force would be ready to assist in the formation of an armament. This was not like an increase of the military force, a measure of a temporary nature but was intended to be a permanent increase to the extent of 2,000 men. The hon. baronet then moved, "That 23,000 men be employed for the Sea Service, for 18 Lunar months, from the 1st January, 1820, including 8,000 royal marines."
Sir Joseph Yorkeinquired whether the hon. baronet meant to make any addition to the guard-ships, which he described as being in a very bad situation. Considerable difficulty was encountered at present in fitting out men of war, as was exemplified in the case of two line of battle ships that were lately sent to a distant quarter of the globe. The seamen were now placed on the preventive service: they were employed under the command of the chancellor of the exchequer, in preventing smuggling. When they came back from a service of that kind, they were generally more fond of the gin-cag than of the gunpowder-cask. There was not a naval officer, he believed, who would not, for the duties of reefing, steering, splicing, or fighting the enemies of their country, take any other set of men, in preference to those who had been placed on this service. When the hon. baronet asked them to vote 2,000 men more than were called for last year, he hoped he would not refuse to give the House some information on the points he had alluded to.
Mr. J. P. Grantsaid, if he understood the hon. baronet correctly, the nature of his proposition was, that 2,000 men should be added to the marines, which would have the effect of releasing 2,000 of the military force of the country from the duty they now performed in the dockyards. Therefore, when an increase of the military force was called for, the House ought to keep in view, that by this new measure, 2,000 men would be virtually added to the military establish-

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ment. He could not, at that moment, make any observation on the proposed increase of the army; but when the noble lord brought forward the proposition, it would be for him to demonstrate the necessity of such a measure in time of peace.
Sir B. Martinsaid, the duty of the dock-yards was formerly executed by the marine corps, and it was always highly desirable that it should be performed by them. That which was now proposed was therefore nothing more than merely reverting to the ancient system.
Sir G. Warrenderstated, that with respect to the guard-ships it was not intended to make any alteration in the system which had been approved of by the House last year, and which rendered that species of force more efficacious. The reasons, founded chiefly on a principle of economy, which he had detailed to the House in the last session, operated to reduce the number of guard-ships. But, if the hon. baronet supposed them to be in a state of inefficiency, he had formed an erroneous opinion. With respect to the armament destined for South America, to which the hon. baronet had alluded, it was not fitted out so tardily as he imagined. One of the vessels, the Superb, commanded by sir T. Hardy, was in the Sound, with all her stores on board, in four days after the orders were issued for her equipment, and her complement of men was speedily completed. With respect to the increased number of marines, it would be most advantageous. If an armament were ordered to be equipped, these men would be ready for service, and the military might undertake the dock-yard duty, as before.
Mr. Tierneysaid, if the marines were increased by 2,000 men, it was clear that 2,000 of the military would be applicable to some other service. If 2,000 additional marines were raised, who were to do a duty now performed by the military, ought not the army to be decreased to that amount? If it was not, then it came to this, that to this extent they increased the army. He had no objection to the marines having the care of the dock-yards, for common sense pointed them out as the most proper force to undertake that duty; but he did not approve of this mode of strengthening the army. It was understood that 10,000 men were to be added to the military force of the country, and no person would contend
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that that number was not quite enough; but, by the proposition now made, it appeared that there would be an increase of 2,000 more.
Sir G. Warrendersaid, that gentlemen were not correct in supposing that the dock-yard duty was entirely performed by the military of late years. The fact was, a part of that duty had always been intrusted to the corps of marines.
Mr. Tierneysaid, he had no objection to the increase of the marines, but he did not like that, to the same extent, the military force should also be increased, which would evidently be the effect of the present measure.
Mr. Crokersaid, it was impossible to deny that this arrangement would relieve that portion of the army which was now employed in the dock-yards, and pro tanto, Would increase the disposable military force. The number of men that would be relieved by this additional vote of marines was about 1,200.
The motion was then agreed to. Sir G. Warrender then moved, "That a sum not exceeding 650,325 l. be granted to his majesty, for wages of the said 23,000 men, for 13 lunar months, at the rate of 2l. 3s. 6d. per man per month," also, "that 612,950 l. be granted, for victuals for the said 23,000 men, for 13 lunar months, at the rate of 2l. 1s. per man per month."
Mr. Baringasked, what was the reason that the charge for victuals was 1s. per man per month greater than it was in the vote of last session?
Sir G. Warrendercould hot state the exact reason, but the officers who made the estimate found that the addition was necessary.
Sir B. Martinsaid the sum voted last year was found to be inadequate, and it was necessary that the charge should be fully covered. Therefore the additional shilling was put on, and for no other reason.
Mr. Baringdid not mean to oppose any part of the service, but when the hon. baronet came down to vote the navy-estimates, and made any alteration in the items, he had a right to state to the House on what ground he made it. It was the paramount duty of that House to inquire into all appropriations of money, and therefore he called for information.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the vote of last sesion was insufficient, and therefore it was proposed on this oc-

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casion to vote 1s. more per man per month; because, on calculation, it was Found that such an increase was necessary to meet the expenditure.
Sir G. Warrendersaid, in proposing this vote, he relied on the judgment and opinion of those gentlemen who belonged to the department and whose duty it was to look into and consider the subject. Better authority he thought he could not have. He could not presume to go into minor details of this kind; and when he received from official authority, a statement that such a charge was correct, and that it must be laid before parliament, he felt himself justified in coming down to the House and proposing the vote.
Mr. Baringconsidered it to be the duty of the hon. baronet, when he called for any augmented vote, to state the grounds on which he applied for such augmentation. The estimates should be moved by some person who could give to the House all necessary information on the subject.
The motion was then agreed to.

NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES BILL.
The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Stamp Duties act of the 56th of the King, c. 56.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he should decline discussing the principle on which the resolution which he had now to move was founded, as it would most probably come before the House immediately, on another occasion. He had thought it his duty to introduce it to the House, because a considerable fraud had been committed on the revenue, by means of the pamphlets against which his measure was intended, and because a considerable invasion had also been made by them upon the property of the regular newspapers. He then handed up his resolution to the chairman, which was as follows: —"That all Pamphlets, or Papers commonly so called, and all other papers containing public news, or intelligence or occurrences, or any remarks or observations, address, or letter thereon, or upon any matter established in Church or State, printed in any part of the United Kingdom, to be dispersed and made public, which shall not exceed two sheets, or which shall be sold or exposed to sale for a less sum than six-pence, exclusive of the Duty to be charged thereon, shall be deemed and taken to be Newspapers within the meaning of the several Acts in
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force relating to Newspapers in Great-Britain and Ireland respectively, and be subject to the like Duties of Stamps."
Mr. Broughamsaid, that as this was only a resolution preparatory to the bringing in of a bill upon the subject, he should not enter into the principle of it at any length, because, though the resolution entered into some details, it had not mentioned any of the exceptions which it was doubtless intended to allow. He should therefore only refer to one circumstance at present, which had been very incorrectly stated by the noble lord on a former night. He had not the slightest doubt of the misrepresentation which the noble lord had made being unintentional; he conceived it to have arisen from his not having seen, or from his not having considered the acts of parliament which already existed upon the subject. After the decided reprobation which he (Mr. Brougham) had passed upon the seditious and blasphemous libels which had emanated from the press in the course of the last three years, he did not expect that he should be suspected of too great a leaning towards them. He must, however, say, that nobody ought to be charged with more crimes than those of which they were actually guilty; and therefore he thought that it was not altogether right to charge men who were guilty of treason or blasphemy, with being also guilty of a fraud upon the revenue. He would show the House good reasons why the publishers of these pamphlets were not guilty of the charge which had that evening been brought against them. The words of the Stamp act, on which alone this charge had been substantiated, and upon which he had always given his opinion, when requested so to do, were "Any newspaper or papers containing any news, intelligence, or occurrence." From those words it was impossible to argue that a person who did not publish any news, intelligence, or occurrence, but merely commented upon them, was guilty of a fraud upon the revenue, because the loophole through which he escaped was evidently a loophole contemplated by the legislature. That this was the case would appear more clearly by considering the intention of the legislature. The act allowed not only individuals to publish every week, or at any other perodical intervals, such comments, but also contained a clause stating the terms on which they were to publish them. From the word-

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ing of this clause it had always been his opinion, that a man who published a pamphlet, containing mere comment, periodically, was not evading, much less defrauding the revenue. He had thought it requisite to make these observations, in consequence of what had fallen from the noble lord on a former occasion. He was clearly of opinion that nothing could be more dangerous to society, nothing more pernicious to the best interests of humanity, than what had recently gone forth to the world in these two penny pamphlets, and his charge against ministers was, that they had not endeavoured to stop that torrent of blasphemy and sedition which had lately inundated the country, before it had arrived at its present height. The existing laws conferred on them sufficient power wherewith to have done it; and he would pledge himself to show, when the proper opportunity arrived, that they were more effectual for such purpose, than those new measures which the House was called upon to adopt, and that they would be the laws to which the ministers would ultimately be compelled to repair in order to punish offenders, even though they carried their present severe and extraordinary propositions.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that he should imitate the example of his right hon. friend, and say very little upon the resolution now before the House, inasmuch as it was merely formal, and arose from the necessity which existed of having a recommendatory vote from the committee before it could be brought into the House, owing to its being a money bill. The bill was not in the hands of hon. members at present, and that gave him another reason for not discussing its enactments at present. If, in the debate of a former evening on this subject, he bad said any thing incorrect or offensive, he was ready instantly to retract it; but he had then quoted the case of one Journal which appeared to have taken the same view of the subject as he himself had done; it had originally paid the usual newspaper duty, but it now escaped it by passing under the name of a pamphlet. He thought some such legislative enactment as that which this resolution contemplated to be actually requisite to protect what he had called the respectable part of the press. An acquiescence in the resolution of that evening would not pledge hon. members to support the measures which might afterwards be founded Upon it.
Mr. Broughambegged leave to inform the noble lord, that the publication to which he alluded, and which he believed to be Cobbett's [lord Castlereagh bowed assent,] did, at the time when it paid the duty, contain news, sad especially when parliament was sitting; ever since it had ceased to pay the duty it contained no articles of public intelligence.
Sir M. W. Ridleyentered his protest against the measure now proposed. He thought that it most materially affected the interests of the country; some of the other bills were local and temporally; this was general and permanent; he, there-fore, felt himself bound to raise his voice against a bill which made so important an alteration in the laws of England.
The resolution was then agreed to.