Sitting of 6 April 1819

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN GUERNSEY—PETITION OF WILLIAM BERRY.
Mr. Bennetsaid, he held in his hand a petition from a Mr. William Berry who had resided several years on the island of Guernsey, which was well deserving of the attention of the House. Mr. Berry stated, that by the laws of Guernsey, a great difference was made between the English born subjects and the native inhabitants, and that in that island every English born person was considered as an alien and a stranger. In consequence of the harsh treatment which the petitioner had experienced under these laws, he had presented a petition to his majesty in council. The result of that petition was, that a commission was issued in 1815, which cost the country nearly 5,000 l. A report was made in 1816, and yet, up to the present moment, not one step had been taken to remedy the evil complained of, or to establish any of the regulations suggested by that commission. In the island of Jersey also a commission was issued above thirty years ago, and yet not one of the grievances pointed out by that commission had been redressed. This was really a subject of great importance. The petition set forth, among other grievances the great hardships that English residents suffered in the island, in not being considered in the same light as natives. The natives were privileged from arrest, but an Englishman could be arrested for so small a sum as 2½d.. Among the municipal regulations which more especially required, to be altered, was the system of arrangement which took place in prisons: murderers, felons, maniacs, and debtors, being, all confined together. After the recess, it was his intention to move for a copy pf the report of the commissioners appointed to inquire into the subject, with the view of founding some measure on it.
Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.

BANK OF IRELAND CASH PAYMENTS BILL
Mr. C. Grantstated, that the bank of Ireland, in consequence of certain notices similar to those issued by the Bank of England had been in die habit of paying in cash their notes under 20 l. As a bill had been passed to restrain the Bank of England from making these payments, it was desirable that a similar measure should be extended to the bank of Ireland, not only on account of the uniformity of legislation which had governed both the establishments, but because there were many supposable cases in which the continuance of the present system, with respect to Ireland would perplex or retard further measures. It was hardly necessary for him to state, that the bill he proposed had no reference to the credit of the Bank of Ireland which had always stood deservedly high, not only on account of the extent of its resources, but the prudence of its management. He trusted the House would see the necessity of passing this bill with the same celerity as that of last night. He then moved for leave to bring in a bill to restrain the governor and company of the Bank of Ireland, from making payments in the gold coin of this realm, under certain notices given by them.
Mr. Broughamsaid, he had heard nothing to make him withdraw the protest he had entered against the bill of last night; on the contrary, all the reasons he had heard in favour of the latter, were hostile to the proposed one. The right hon. gentleman who had introduced the subject last night, had had the advantage of being a member of the select committee and of using the authority of their recommendation in favour of the measure be proposed; but the right hon. gentleman who made the present motion had not stated any grounds drawn from that source, or from any desire on the part of the Bank of Ireland. Last night a statement had been made of the great drainage of specie out of this country, but the House had now heard no statement of facts, nor any thing respecting the opinion of the committee. The only ground alleged to-night in support of the measure was, that of the fitness of uniformity between the two countries; but that was evidently no reason for such a violent proceeding as the present. If the chancellor of the exchequer were now prepared to state generally what had happened this morning at the Bank, perhaps it would justify the call for the dispatch of last
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night, and be a considerable motive for agreeing to the motion; because what had happened in London might happen in Dublin. But at present they were called upon to adopt so important a change in the absence of any statement of facts, and of the opinion of the committee.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought, that even the learned gentleman must admit, that if the measure of last night was proper, it ought to be followed up by a similar provision for Ireland. The Bank of Ireland had pursued every step taken by the Bank of England, and if measures were not taken for the protection of Ireland they would not only do a great injustice to the Bank there, but render the measure of last night in a great degree nugatory; for, without such a guard, the force of circumstances would run immediately on Ireland. It was well known there had been a transmission of specie from Ireland to this country for the purpose of exportation, and without this protection it might be carried to a dangerous extent. With respect to the drainage of this morning, he had no information to give. Should it even not turn out to be so considerable as might be naturally expected, the circumstance might be accounted for on the supposition that many persons had been led to imagine, that, in consequence of what had occurred here last night, an application to the Bank for specie this morning would be useless.
Sir H. Parnellsaid, it would almost appear that the committee on Bank affairs had wholly forgotten those of the Bank of Ireland, since no mention was made of them by any member of the committee; and yet it was on a sort of incipient report from that body, that the measure which passed yesterday was founded. He did not wish unnecessarily to inquire what the committee had been doing; but it would be satisfactory to the House to receive the same information, with respect to the Bank of Ireland, which they yesterday received with reference to the Bank of England. The right hon. gentleman had argued, that the Bank of Ireland would, in consequence of the measure adopted yesterday, be more liable to a sudden drain, than the Bank here. But he had left out of his calculation the very small issue of Bank of Ireland notes, compared with the vast number of Bank of England notes in circulation.
Sir J. Newportsaid, it was due to the

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Bank of Ireland to say, that, when the restriction was first proposed, so far was it from being a measure wished for by them, that they actually struggled against it. It was thought right that they should follow every step taken by the Bank of England; and they, in consequence, issued the notice for the payment in specie, of notes of a certain date. The question was, whether they would proceed in the same course to the end, or break off here from the precedent which had been so long pursued? He conceived it would be impolitic to depart from the established practice.
Sir G. Hillobserved, that the bill would have been introduced yesterday, but for the absence of his right hon. friend.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, it was rather extraordinary that the chancellor of the exchequer should imagine the speculators in bullion to be so short sighted as to take the debate of last night for an act of parliament. He thought the right hon. gentleman must know by his communication with these gentry, that however they might respect orders in council, or acts, or any thing which really prevented them from receiving cash, they had not much regard for speeches, and were not to be frightened by these "paper bullets of the brain" from the career of their gain. He could only take it for granted, from what had been said, that the drain on the Bank this day had not been considerable, for if it had, the right hon. gentleman would, no doubt, have been ready to urge it in favour of the measure before them. As to the measure before the House, he had not heard any of those arguments which should induce the House to adopt it.
Mr. Callaghansupported the measure, as a corrollary to that respecting the Bank of England.
Leave was given to bring in the bill. It was brought in and read a first time. On the second reading,
Mr. Broughamagain stated his objections to the rapid proceeding in this bill without reasons alleged. It had been stated by his right hon. friend (Mr. Tierney) that the only question as to the former bill, was as to a sure of 3 or 400,000 l. He would ask, whether with reference to the Bank of Ireland, any one would take the sum as high as thirty or 40,000 l.? As this bill was not brought in yesterday, the holders of notes in Ireland would have not one day. as in this
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country but two days notice, so that within the time given, the notes from Dublin and its neighbourhood might be sent in, and the measure rendered nugatory. If the immediate stoppage of the drain of the Bank of Ireland was of such urgent consequence, why had not the measure been proposed last night? The chancellor of the exchequer, as he was nimble enough, might turn upon him and say that its continuance for a day or two did not signify. If this were said, then the reason for violating the orders of the House was at once taken away.
Sir G. Hillsaid, the bill had not been brought in yesterday on a point of etiquette towards the secretary for Ireland, who was then absent.
The bill then went through the remaining stages, and was passed.

CLERK OF THE PEACE IN IRELAND.
Sir John Newportasked leave to bring in a bill to regulate the appointment and tenure of the office of clerk of the peace in Ireland. His object was, to assimilate, as far as possible, the office of the clerk of the peace in Ireland to the same office in England, and to make the former liable to a statute of William and Mary, exactly in the same manner as the latter was. No clause in the bill which he wished to present to the House was calculated to abrogate the clause of the 49th of the king, generally known by the name of Mr. Percival's clause; his intention was, to leave that act in full force. He intended, however, to introduce a clause, which should make the person holding the office swear before he entered upon it, that he had not paid any sum or sums of money for it, and that he did not reserve any part of the salary attached to it for any other individual.
Mr. C. Grantexpressed his entire concurrence with the principle on which the right hon. baronet's bill was founded.
Sir H. Parnellsuggested to his right hon. friend, whether it would not be advisable, in consequence of the great powers which the clerk of the peace in Ireland enjoyed, from his having to register the different freeholders, to enact that no representative for an Irish county should hold the office of custos rotulorum, inasmuch as great abuses might possibly arise from the connection existing between the custos and the clerk of the peace Sir J. Newport replied, that the bill which he wished to introduce related to

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the clerk of the peace, and not to the custos.
Colonel Barrythought that the exaction of such an oath of office as had been proposed by the right hon. baronet was unwise, and bore too hard upon the frailty of human nature. A better way of preventing such negotiations for interest would be to visit the negotiators with heavy penalties, whenever they were discovered.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

STATE OF DISEASE IN IRELAND.
Sir J. Newportrose to call the attention of the House to the state of disease in Ireland, and to move for the revival of the committee of last session, with a view to make farther inquiries upon the subject. It would be recollected that in consequence of the report of the committee of last session, a legislative measure was adopted, and one of the objects of the proposed committee would be to inquire into the effect and operation of that measure. That the measure had done good he was happy to admit. But unfortunately the ravages of disease still continued. Its rage was indeed such in the district with which he was more particularly connected, that within the last twelve months no less than 3,500 patients had been admitted into the fever hospitals of that district. But the want and misery which prevailed among the poor, and which prompted the violence of the fever, was really such that the unfortunate sufferers were better off even in the hospitals than elsewhere; for, out of doors, they were condemned to endure the aggravated distress, which too often drove them back again to seek relief in the hospitals from that disease, which distress mainly engendered. Of the spread and violence of that disease, the House might judge from this fact that in the counties of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford, no less than 43,000 patients had been admitted into the fever hospitals within a period of 15 months. After stating this melancholy fact, he hoped the House would not think he asked too much in calling for the appointment of a committee to consider of the means of providing some remedy or mitigation for such an alarming evil. If the House should agree with him in thinking that this committee should be appointed, it was his intention to move an instruction, for the committee to inquire not only as
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to the state of disease in Ireland, and the means best calculated for its removal or mitigation, but as to the state of the labouring poor, and the means of enabling individuals to provide employment for them. Upon this last point, he hoped the committee would exercise the most diligent investigation. It was not his object to propose that the people should look for the means of employment from the public purse, but that private individuals, or associations of individuals, should not have any obstacles thrown in their way towards providing employment for the labouring class. He trusted the House would feel that where such obstacles existed they should be immediately removed, and that whatever could be effected by general regulations towards facilitating the employment of the poor ought to be promptly adopted. It was known, that, according to the opinion of the commissioners for surveying the bogs and marshes of Ireland, there were no less than 2,830,000 acres, which might be converted to purposes of agriculture and pasture. One million of these acres had, indeed, been already surveyed, levelled, and reported upon by the commissioners. What scope, then, did such an extent of land afford for the employment of the labouring poor! But the fact was, that this property was so intermixed, and belonged to such a number of persons, that it was found impracticable to render it so available as could be wished. To provide a remedy then for this deficiency, and to enable individuals, or associations of individuals, to furnish employment to the poor, was one of the great objects to which it was proposed to direct the attention of the committee, who would naturally be led in the progress of their inquiry, into a consideration of the means by which the labour of the commissioners to whom he had alluded might be rendered most productive to the country. As far as the census now in progress had proceeded, it was found, that out of a population of 3,840,000 in certain districts in Ireland, the proportion employed in agriculture, compared to that engaged in manufactures and the mechanical professions, was as 488,000 to 164,000. Such a comparison then clearly demonstrated the necessity of providing every possible employment for the labourers in agriculture, especially as it was found, that without such employment the labouring poor must be destitute of the common

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means of support. Without additional employment, indeed, a great mass of the labouring poor must be reduced to absolute beggary. There was no district in Ireland in which the population employed in agriculture were not considerably more than those engaged as manufacturers and handicraftsmen. This was the case even in the principal manufacturing counties of Antrim, Down, Armagh and Derry, where the proportion of agriculturists, to manufacturers and handicraftsmen was as 28S to 83. Hence, then, it was obvious, that nothing should be left undone which promissed in any degree to augment the means of employment for the labourers in agriculture; and hence he was induced to think the point to which he had adverted as of vital importance to the interests of Ireland. The right hon. baronet then moved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the State of Ireland as to Disease, and how far the measures, remedial and preventive, adopted by the Legislature or otherwise during the last year, have been effective for its removal or mitigation; and also, into the condition of the Labouring Poor of that part of the united kingdom, with a view to facilitate the application of the funds of private individuals and associations for their employment in useful productive labour; and that they do report their observations, together with their opinion upon these subjects, from time to time, to the House."
Mr. C. Grantrose to second the motion of the right hon. baronet, which he considered to be one of the utmost importance. It was of the utmost importance, because it would show the Irish public, that their interests were carefully watched in the British parliament, and because it would show the British public the distress and misery under which their fellow countrymen had been labouring in Ireland. He should commence the observations which he had to offer to the House, by observing, that till the winter set in, the epidemic prevailed very generally. Since that time, a considerable abatement had taken place in Waterford, in Limerick, in Cork, in Clonmel, and in Dublin. The periodical returns, which had been received up to February last, showed a striking improvement; and if he had not had those documents to refer to, a strong proof of his assertions would be found in the average rate of patients which had been admitted into the public hospital at Dublin during
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the last three months. In December they had been 90, in January 77, in February 60. Hopes were also entertained, that the Richmond penitentiary would soon be restored to its original intention, and would no longer be wanted as an hospital; so that he thought himself justified in saying, that even in those quarters where the fever had once raged with the utmost violence, a most considerable abatement had lately become visible. This was also proved by a diminution of the pecuniary claims which were made on the government for assistance to the sufferers; and if all these facts should not appear satisfactory, he had yet another. The government had commissioned certain medical gentlemen to make a tour round the whole island, and to inquire into the state of disease within it. They had commenced their tour six weeks ago; and though the total result of their inquiries was unknown, he was happy to say, that as far as it was known, it presented a most gratifying prospect to the country. The fever was, however, so capricious, in its nature, that even if its ravages were much less than they were at present, he should gladly second the proposal of applying for a committee. The hon. member then went into a history of the origin and progress of the fever. In the years 1816 and 1817, the state of the weather was so moist and wet, that the lower orders in Ireland were almost deprived of fuel wherewith to dry themselves, and of food whereon to subsist. They were obliged to feed on esculent plants, such as mustard-seed, nettles, potato tops, and potatoe-stalks—a diet which brought on a debility of body, and. increased the disease more than any thing else could have done. The ravages of the fever were also increased by the amiable peculiarities of the Irish character; their hospitality, which would not allow them to turn the stranger from their home, though they might be themselves involved in the deepest distress, their affection to the dead, and all those finer susceptibilities with which they were endowed, had opened the door wide to contagion. He trusted that, dreadful as the calamity had been, by which the nation had been visited, some advantage would be derived from it. He trusted that some means would be taken to prevent its future progress; and hoped that it would show the lower Irish the necessity of fumigating their houses, or separating the sick from the healthy, and of continuing such other

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wholesome regulations as had been enforced upon them by their existing distress, The patience with which they had borne that distress was truly admirable, and was not to be paralleled by any thing in history. They had been placed in that dreadful situation, which an ancient historian had so well described in the history of Athens; they had seen that indiscriminate destruction of the good and the bad by one common calamity, which was so calculated to destroy all moral principle, and had seen it without being corrupted by it; they had been collected in large numbers to receive alms, and, what was surprising in a country which had such an indifferent police as Ireland possessed, had not, though suffering under the most acute misery that man could suffer, been guilty of the slightest tumult. Indeed, they had exhibited a patience whilst suffering, and a gratitude when recovered from suffering, that he could never contemplate but with the warmest admiration. The manner, too, in which assistance had been dispensed to the suffering poor, was equally deserving of attention. There had been only one impulse of general benevolence. The clergy of the established church had distinguished themselves by the most exemplary exertions, and the Catholic priesthood had not been found inferior to their Protestant brethren. Their religion, indeed, called them into the closest contact with the dead and dying, and not a single instance occurred wherein they shrunk from their duty. One instance of excelling virtue had fallen within his own knowledge. A Roman Catholic priest was called upon to visit a small cabin, in which six individuals were lying, all violently affected with the typhus fever. The priest had no other means of receiving the dying man's communications, and of administering to him the consolations of religion, than by throwing himself on the wretched pallet upon which the sick man lay, and thus inhaling contagion from its source. The conduct of the medical profession was also beyond all praise. Many instances had Occurred wherein men of rising talent and celebrity had devoted themselves to an exclusive and gratuitous attention to the poor. Nor was this philanthropy and benevolence confined to them alone. A gentleman, of the name of Mahony, at Cork, had watched nights and days by the bed-sides of the wretched sufferers, who were either too poor to pay for nurses themselves, or whose nurses, from fatigue
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or other causes, had desisted from their watchfulness. Many landed proprietors had done the same, and had received a noble return in the gratitude of their tenantry. Those who had been absent from their estates, had lost an opportunity, which he hoped would not soon occur again under similar circumstances, of infixing themselves in the affections of their dependents; and were as deserving of pity, for the love which they had lost, as the resident proprietors were of envy for the gratitude which they had obtained.—The hon. member expressed the gratification which he felt at the method in which the right hon. baronet intended to employ the poor; and maintained, that though there might be some occasions in which the government might interpose to find employment for them, any permanent legislative enactment on such a subject would be nothing more than a delusion, and could not be long attended with beneficial consequences. The hon. gentleman sat down, amidst considerable cheering from both sides of the House.
Mr. W. Parnellthought the right hon. gentleman entitled to great praise for his conduct in Ireland, as well as for the generous and just sentiments which he had just delivered. He said, he imputed no blame to the Irish government, although he thought they had carried the principle of non-interference too far. They had also, perhaps, been too economical; but he hoped now to see fresh exertions made, which would eradicate the fever, and remove a disgrace from the country.
Lord Jocelyn Lord Jocelyn, as an Irishman, begged to return his sincere thanks to the right hon. secretary, for the speech he had made, and the promises it held out. He trusted that the origin of the fever would not escape the scrutiny of the committee. For two years the lower orders had been in a most deplorable state.
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, that the sentiments expressed by the right hon. secretary, did equal honour to his head and heart. There was one point to which he wished the right hon. gentleman particularly to direct his attention, namely, that which related to absentees. That was a great and crying evil, and could not be too soon remedied. He paid a tribute to the memory of Mr. Mahony, of Cork, who had lost his life in consequence of his attendance upon those who were afflicted with the fever.
Mr. Callaghanrejoiced that the interests

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of Ireland were committed to an individual at once so able and so well informed. He was of opinion, that the fever originated in general impoverishment, from want of food, raiment, and fuel, in the hard winters. Though bogs might be inclosed, a great deal yet remained to be done to ameliorate the condition of the lower classes in Ireland; the great evil was, in his view, a superabundant population.
Mr. V. Blakeapproved of the course the Irish government had pursued, and recommended that certain sums should be advanced out of the consolidated fund, to be expended in labour.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, [he found in his visit to Ireland, that the great cause of its distresses consisted in want of capital. He had himself, in the course of last session, introduced a bill, the object of which was to encourage the introduction of English capital into that country. It was intended to enable capitalists to embark a portion of their property in trade, making them answerable only to the extent of the sums so advanced. The bill had passed the Commons, but was rejected in the Lords. Had it been passed into a law, he was quite sure its effect would have been most beneficial.
The motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed.

ROYAL BURGHS ACCOUNTS BILL.
The Lord Advocatemoved for leave to bring in a bill to regulate the mode of accounting in the royal burghs. His object was to render the mode of accounting more effectual than it was at present. He should be most happy to adopt any plan which might be thought better adapted to the purpose he had in view.
Mr. Humethought that the measure now proposed was futile and useless. In the present situation of the people of Scotland, they were not disposed to be put off with a bill which would neither relieve their difficulties nor correct the glaring abuses which at present existed. It was admittted on all hands, that some measure was necessary; and it was almost as universally acknowledged, that this bill, now about to be introduced, would have no beneficial effect in correcting the growing abuses—Leave was given.

CASH PAYMENTS BILL.
Mr. Peelbrought from the Commons the bill for restraining the Bank from paying in specie the notes under 5l. issued previously to the 1st of January 1817. The bill being read a first time,
The Earl of Harrowbyrose to move that the standing order relative to the progress of bills be suspended, in order that the present measure might pass through its remaining stages forthwith. The noble lord described the nature of the payments which it was the object of the present bill to suspend; and argued that the stopping the partial payments the Bank was now engaged to make, would have the effect of accelerating the general resumption of payments in specie. During the period in which the Bank had been in the practice of making partial payments, between 5,000,000 l. and 6,000,000 l. had been drawn from its coffers; and it was obvious that if this drain were allowed to continue, it would tend to retard the desirable object their lordships had in view. He wished it, however, to be distinctly understood, that the present measure was not called for by the committee, with any reference to, the convenience of the Bank. The suspension in 1797 had been referred to; but the case was quite different. The Bank was then bound to pay all their notes in specie, and there might have been, from the circumstances of the country, such a drain as would have rendered the immediate fulfilment of that engagement impossible. The present measure related only to a particular description of notes, and those who re-commended it knew that the Bank was in possession of treasure far beyond the amount of the notes they had promised to pay.
Earl Greysaid, that the impression he had received on the first suggestion of the present measure remained unaltered. He could regard it in no other light than that of a renunciation of the principles of finance hitherto acted upon by the present government, and, a complete condemnation of all the steps professedly taken by his majesty's ministers and the Bank, for the

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purpose of accelerating the resumption of cash payments. He felt it to be his duty to state his opinion of the measure, and to enter his protest against it.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he would pledge himself, when the discussion of the general measure should take place, to demonstrate that this bill contained nothing in any degree at variance with the principles hitherto acted upon by his majesty's ministers with respect to financial measures and the Bank. The noble earl had yesterday expressed a doubt as to the opinion which he (lord Liverpool) had attributed to an individual with respect to the transaction which took place in 1797. He was, however, upon reflection, still more convinced, that what he had stated to be the opinion of that individual was correct. There appeared to him no room to doubt that in the discussion which took place on the measure adopted in 1797, Mr. Fox expressed it to be his opinion, that the course which ought to have been pursued was a direct application to the House of Commons. His recollection was besides farther confirmed by the statement of Mr. Fox's opinion in these historical sources of information of what passed in parliament, which had on former occasions been alluded to, and which, whatever might be the imperfections to which they were liable, might surely be relied on for a fact of this kind.
Earl Greysaid, he had merely stated his impression as to what had passed in 1797. With regard to the historical sources of information to which the noble lord had referred, if he had stated them to be imperfect he could only mean that they were subject to those unavoidable inaccuracies, to which the disadvantageous circumstances under which they were obtained gave rise. He had considered the arguments of Mr. Fox to be directed altogether against the principle of the measure; and he must say, with all the respect he entertained for the memory of that great man, that he still considered an order of council preferable to a direct application to parliament.
The Marquis of Lansdownesaid, that before consenting to the present measure, he had been particularly solicitous to establish, first, the disposition on the part of the members of the committee to revert to the ancient and approved standard of value, and secondly, the means possessed by the Bank of recurring to that standard
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of value. Being satisfied upon these two points, it followed that this bill became absolutely necessary to the attainment of the object in view, as without it the fulfilment of that object must be retarded.
The standing orders were then suspended, the bill was read a second time, and the commitment having been negatived, it was read a third time and passed.