Sitting of 2 March 1818

CONVICTION OF OFFENDERS RRWARDS BILL.
Mr. Bennet,in pursuance of the notice he had given, rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal and amend various acts of parliament relative to statutable rewards on the conviction of offenders. Those gentlemen in the House who belonged entirely to the profession of the law, being better acquainted with these matters than he was, might be supposed better qualified for the task he had undertaken than he could be; but having been a member of the committee appointed to inquire into the state of the police of

691
the metropolis, and having lately passed a considerable portion of his time in inquiries into subjects of this nature, and feeling, in common with a great number of individuals, that some measure like that which he intended to propose, was indispensably necessary, he was induced to trouble the House with a bill to repeal and amend the law respecting statutable rewards. The reports of the committee alluded to, and the evidence connected with them, having so long been before the House, it would not be necessary for him to take up their time, by entering into any long detail on the subject. He should confine himself to stating merely the principal reasons which induced him to bring the matter of statutable rewards, on conviction, at present before the House. In the first place, there could be nothing more objectionable than the effect which this system of rewards had, of training up offenders in all the gradations of crime, from the first offence of the criminal, till he arrived at the last stage, when a reward could be obtained for his conviction. Every person must see, that a punishment, however slight, if certain, was much more efficacious for the repression of offences, than more severe punishments, which, it was known, were seldom inflicted. There could be no question, however, that a number of juvenile offenders were permitted to roam at large, and to proceed from one stage in crime to another, till they were, as it was technically called, "worth their weight"—that was, 40 l. sterling. The shocking practices to which these rewards led, and which had been detailed by many magistrates and others connected with the police of the metropolis, might be seen in the minutes of the evidence taken by the committee; and for an elucidation of some of them, he would refer move particularly to the evidence of Mr. Shelton, clerk of the arraigns. On this subject there was surely enough to warrant the interference of the House. It was stated in evidence, that, on trials, the first question frequently put to police officers and witnesses was, what they would gain by the conviction? and by this means persons, of whose guilt there could be no doubt, were frequently, from the difficulty of obtaining witnesses, acquitted; because witnesses felt their characters assailed by the sort of questions which were put to them, and because this blood-money hung like a stone about their necks. Another reason for remedying the
§
692
system was, that it led to conspiracies for procuring people to commit crimes, to obtain the reward for their conviction. The public attention had lately been powerfully called to the subject of such conspiracies; and an investigation respecting one, was at this very time on foot. But this was not the first time of persons lending themselves to the purpose of entrapping men into the commission of offences, for the sake of obtaining the reward for their conviction. As early as 1756, several persons were convicted of having been concerned in conspiracies of this nature; one of those persons, of the name of M'Daniel, acknowledged that seventy persons had been convicted at different times on evidence furnished by him. On one occasion a man voluntarily submitted to be robbed. The judges thought force necessary to constitute a robbery. Three persons concerned in this business were tried for a conspiracy, but they were so roughly handled by the populace, that one of them was killed outright, and another died soon afterwards. Unfortunately these were not solitary instances. In the year 1772, about twenty persons were the victims of such machinations. The conspiracies which were discovered about a year ago, were well known to the House. The case which lately happened to be discovered in Newgate, was one in which the execution of the sentence of the law had been most properly suspended. He did not mean to say, that in this case the conspiracy was as clearly made out as in the case of the poor men who were convicted on the evidence of Brock, Pelham, and Power; but there was a well-founded suspicion that Kelly and Spicer were the victims of the same system. How many others might have fallen victims to these contrivances it was impossible to say, but the general persuasion was, that the instances had been but too numerous. He was convinced he was not exaggerating when he said, that it had been a long-established practice in this country, for individuals, day after day, and year after year, to stimulate others to the commission of crime, for the purpose of putting money in their pockets by their conviction. It was his intention to propose, that what were technically called Tyburn-tickets, should be continued, and that the reward of 40 l. should still be paid to the executors of any persons killed in the pursuit of highwaymen, or the executors of persons killed in discharging their

693
duty in seizing of criminals, on whose conviction the reward was payable. But instead of the rewards on conviction, payable by the 4th, 6th, and 10th of William and Mary, the 5th of queen Anne, and the 14th and 15th of George 2nd, he intended to propose, that there should be assigned money for the expenses of prosecuting, and bringing forward witnesses, in all cases of felony whatever, whether a conviction did or did not take place, at the discretion of the judges. He thought this expense ought not to be thrown on individuals, when it appeared that there was a reasonable ground made out for prosecution. It was not his intention to trouble the House farther at present. He trusted he had made out a case sufficient to show, that the system of giving what was termed blood-money, against which there was one general feeling throughout the country, was an evil which loudly called for a remedy. The hon. gentleman concluded with moving for leave to bring in a bill to repeal and amend certain acts of parliament relative to the giving statutable rewards on the conviction of offenders.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

ELECTION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. Wynn Mr. Wynn moved the third reading of this bill. He said, he should propose an amendment to obviate an objection made by a noble lord, with respect to the 400 votes requisite at the close of the two first days of the poll. The object of this amendment would be, to declare that all votes should be included in that number, which were tendered, and found ultimately good, though they might be decided against at the time.
Sir C. Moncksaid, that by the present bill the returning officer could appoint as many constables as he thought necessary. This was a power that might be used for a particular influence; and it seemed desirable that such power should not be given so as to serve a political view.
Mr. Allansaid, that although the bill did not vary materially from that which passed the House last session, except in the exclusion of a clause, which had excited great discontent among many of the most valuable and best informed constituents, he was, nevertheless, by no means prepared to think it either merited, or would meet with the same support; and feeling as he did, that neither expense nor inconvenience at elections would be pre-
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vented by its enactment, he felt it his duty to oppose the third reading. But before he proceeded to urge his objections to particular provisions of the bill, which, to spare the time of the House, he should do very generally, he was willing to give the hon. gentleman, the promoter of it, every credit for skill and knowledge in the usages of parliament; and he hoped he would allow him to say (adverting to an observation of his on a former occasion), that he did not lie by to wait for an unfair opportunity to thwart his measure, but that his opposition to the recommitment arose from the circumstance of the hon. gentleman having himself proposed, as he thought rather precipitately, the third reading for the very next day. It had been his practice ever since he had had the honour of a seat in that House, to consent generally to the introduction of any bill, not primâ facie objectionable, and to watch its progress through a committee; and he did so in this case, though he contemplated the measure from the first as an innovation on the election laws, in his humble but confirmed opinion, not likely to produce any beneficial effects whatever. On the contrary, and on the best consideration be had been able to bestow, it appeared to him that the repeal of the act of the 18th George 2nd, by the substitution of that which was then before the House, would not tend in any degree to render less inconvenient the election of knights of the shire to serve in parliament, for it in fact merely transferred the power to provide booths or polling places from the sheriffs to the magistrates, the former being limited to the number of fifteen, and the latter unlimited, except by a vexatious appeal to the quarter sessions. It might be otherwise arranged; and as he contended that fifteen polling places were sufficient for Yorkshire, if his position were true, the argument must hold good as to every other county in the kingdom. But he objected to the principle of the bill, more particularly as affecting-places where the right of voting is in freemen, inasmuch as the power to be given to the magistrates must necessarily interfere with the bye laws and internal regulations of such places, and a right thus to be vested in an extraneous authority, to direct voting by wards, guilds, or companies, contrary to immemorial usage, must operate with those concerned, as an invasion of the chartered privileges and immunities of every city, borough, or port

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in the empire. Besides this, he held the proposed regulations for the polling of freemen to be still more objectionable; and he contended that notwithstanding the number of polling places might be increased so as to take the votes of 400 in one day, the poll might, nevertheless, be so protracted, by disputes upon the rights of paupers and others (he bore in mind that the returning officer might set apart), that 400 could not possibly be polled either on the second or any subsequent day, nor even 200, as now proposed; and thus, by the favour of a returning officer, by a manusuvre in fixing the day of election, and through the medium of dull or entertaining orators, two members might be returned, when, in reality, a third candidate might have a vast majority of legal votes in his train ready, but not able to exercise their franchise. The whole scope and tenor of this arrangement appeared to him to be neither more nor less than a design to do away the most valuable part of our mixed state of popular representation, to impose on independent candidates an enormous expense, by assembling freemen before the election is fixed, or at once to deprive for ever the outlying voters from any possibility of exercising their just right, whether derived by birth, or through the means of honest servitude, in the various crafts and mysteries which have so eminently distinguished this country above all others. He admitted there were clauses in this bill, to which, in another shape, he should not object, and he admitted also there had been cases in which polls had been unnecessarily protracted; but he did not think any proper remedy would be supplied by this bill, which, for the reasons he had assigned, he moved might be read a third time this day six months.
Mr. Marryatsaid, that from all he heard it was clear the more the bill was considered, the more it would be found objectionable. What had been done appeared to him unsatisfactory. He objected to the proposed regulations concerning the poll, which applied the same principle to counties and boroughs. The House ought to pause before they passed this bill into a law. If it was applicable to county elections, it might not be so for all places. It tended to compel a candidate to bring up all the non-resident voters in his favour on the first day of the poll. Yet be might not know that he wanted them. The bill would be productive of
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an increase in the expenses of elections. Besides, the bringing up of all the voters at the beginning of the poll would only tend to increase the danger of riots and disturbances. The power to stop the poll, if a certain number did not in this stage of the election appear, had also a tendency to disfranchise those who could not, in the first instance, attend from distant parts. Why, also throw the expense of the hustings on the county, instead of the candidate? If the latter could throw upon his constituents this part of his expense, why not throw the rest? Why not, as in America and in France, make his constituents pay his daily expenses? He could not approve of the proposal for abolishing the giving away of cockades. That practice assisted a very useful and valuable branch of our manufactories, and which at present stood greatly in need of encouragement. This alteration could be no important object. The disposition to rioting proceeded, not from the cockade in the hat, but from the liquor in the head. As to declaring the election in certain cases, where there was no opposition, he supposed members knew well enough the maxim of divide et impera. It would be more decorous to let the measure stand over. If the bill were to be passed now, the House would be rushing in upon a new system respecting the law and practice of elections, just at the time when a general election was about to take place.
Mr. Protheroeobjected to the clause of the bill respecting cockades. He wished the bill to be recommitted, as he approved of some parts of it; he should otherwise vote for the amendment.
Sir W. Burroughsthought the clause which put an end to the poll at the conclusion of the second day, if 400 voters had not polled, was objectionable. A candidate might object to his adversary's votes, and thus put an end to the election unfairly: for there was not, on the supposition that every vote was objected to, more than 63 seconds allowed to determine on each. The clause too which affixed a penalty on giving away a cockade, would occasion vexatious prosecutions.
Mr. Hammersleythought this a selfish bill on the part of the House, and he was sorry to see so little disposition to object to it. The inconvenience that had been alleged as the reason for this bill, was, that the member for Devonshire had been obliged to stand four days before his

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constituents, by the opposition of a person who had but few votes. He did not think this a hardship to be complained of by a gentleman who thereby became the representative of a populous county for seven years. The longer the hon. member stood before his constitnents, the better for himself, and for them. He thought this bill tended, by diminishing expense, to introduce into the House persons of less weight and respectability than would otherwise be elected. He should therefore vote for the amendment.
Mr. Wilberforcethought, that the part of the bill which proposed to put an end to the practice of giving cockades would not answer the purpose. The bill affixed a penalty to the giving away cockades; but the member would be thought a very shabby fellow who did not submit to this additional expense [A member suggested that the penalty was affixed to each offence]. If it was meant to apply to the giving each cockade, it was not so expressed in the bill, nor would it be so interpreted. He remembered prosecutions against a man for exercising the trade of a tailor; and he was proceededagainst separately for several acts done in the same day; lord Kenyon said, that if the man could be prosecuted for different acts in one day, he might as well be sued for penalties on every stitch. He thought it would be better to affix a small penalty, 5s. or 10 s. for instance, on any person giving a cockade, for each cockade given, and to avoid the delicate question of agency, which was one of the most difficult to be determined either by a court or a committee of the House. He did not think the bill could be considered as merely intended for the benefit of the candidates. It was a benefit to the country at large, that persons who would be preferred by the electors on political principles, or from local connexions, should not be thrust out by weight of purse by men less deserving of support, morally or politically. It was the duty of the House to watch over the interests of the country gentlemen, who were the glory and the strength of the country. The bill might be convenient in its operations to a few leading families, in places were there was little chance of opposition, by limiting the duration of the poll: but the interest of any particular family was but a feather in the balance compared with the prejudice it would be of to the country at large.
Mr. F. Douglasapproved of the bill,
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but thought it better that some of the clauses should not be put in operation for two years, as from their enactment on the eve of an election, they might be twisted for partial purposes which could hardly be foreseen.
Sir J. Grahamobjected to the clause, which rendered it no longer necessary for freeholders to adduce a proof that their tenement was assessed to the land tax. He also objected to the payment of the expense of the hustings out of the county rates, and to the power given to the returning officers to appoint any number of constables. The returning officers were not always of the highest description, and might make a job at the county expense. The magistrates were the proper judges of the number of peace officers who were necessary.
Mr. Lockhartapproved of the general principle of the bill, especially of the part forbidding the distribution of cockades. He had known 30,000 cockades given away at an election, and this signal of party was thus made an engine of bribery, not to the multitude at large, but towards persons of particular trades. He was doubtful, however, whether a simple limitation of the length of polls would not be better than the complicated machinery now introduced, the effect of which it was not easy to foresee.
General Thorntonexpressed a hope that the bill would not proceed any farther.
Mr. P. Mooreobserved, that the effect of some of the restrictions proposed by this bill would be to disfranchise one-third part of his constituents of Coventry. The restriction on the use of cockades was, in his opinion, highly inexpedient, as it tended to discourage an extensive branch of manufacture. This view of the subject had excited a smile in the House; but it was a matter of serious importance to many thousands of industrious individuals who derived their support from the manufacture in question. If the bill was amended, so as to do away with these objections, he should feel it his duty to support it.
Mr. Wynnreplied. He said, that as the law at present stood, if any one candidate chose, he could keep the poll open to the last moment allowed by the law, which was fifteen days. This he considered as a very great evil. It had been said, that this was a selfish measure on the part of the House. He, on the contrary, viewed it as calculated to relieve

699
electors themselves. The very first principle of the constitution was, that freeholders should be represented in that House free of expense. To give effect to this principle was the leading object of this bill. The first clause objected to was that respecting the building of booths and other apparatus. It had been said, that to throw the expense of these erections upon the county, was to encourage ambitious candidates to come forward. But it should be recollected, that, at present, any candidate could avoid this expense. He had only to avoid offering himself, but to get some person to demand a poll for him, and he could be charged with no part of the expense. The only alternative left him, therefore, in framing this bill was, to throw the expense upon the county, or upon the individual demanding the poll; and as the latter would be a greater alteration of the whole system, he had adopted the former. When the expense was laid upon the county, no individual would feel it severely. Besides, as the materials of booths and hustings would be sold after the election, the amount would be inconsiderable. The second clause objected to respected the closing of the poll, if 400 had not voted before the end of the second day. The bringing in of electors from a distant part of a county he thought as great an evil as bringing them from the remotest part of the kingdom. If, therefore, a candidate could not poll 400 on the second day from the place where the poll was held, he thought it would be a great advantage that the poll should be closed. It had been suggested, that the bill should be put off till after the general election. He could not consent to this, as it was brought forward with the view of preventing such evils as it embraced at the ensuing general election. As to cockades, he believed that the 100 l. proposed as a penalty would effectually prevent the use of them; but he should not have the least objection to a fine for each cockade given away. The clause respecting constables was especially required. At one election he knew that 8,000 l. had been given to special constables. At another election 1,500 special constables had been engaged at half-a-guinea a day each. The amendment proposed in the bill respecting the land-tax was much wanted in every part of the country, but particularly in Gloucestershire and Yorkshire. If the bill should be read a third time, he would
700
willingly discuss any particular clause proposed to be added afterwards to it.
The question being put, That the bill be now read a third time, the House divided: Ayes, 44; Noes, 51. The bill was consequently lost.

IRISH COURTS OF JUSTICE.
Sir J. Newportasked, whether any measures had been taken by the Irish government in consequence of the reports of the commissioners for investigating the fees and emoluments of the several officers connected with the courts of justice in that country?
Mr. Peelobserved, that the three reports from the commission alluded to were so voluminous, as to require some time for their consideration. They had been submitted to the examination of the lord chancellor of Ireland, with a view to collect his opinion for the satisfaction of the Irish government, as to the arrangements proposed, and from his own knowledge he could state, that that learned lord had, in conjunction with the master of the rolls, devoted a great deal of attention to the subject. The master of the rolls had, indeed, occupied a great part of the last vacation in considering those reports, and the capacity of that learned person to form a correct judgment upon any subject, could not be questioned by any one who had an opportunity of appreciating his talents. When the opinions of those two learned persons should be communicated to the Irish government, he could assure the right hon. baronet that it was the intention of that government to adopt such measures as the equity of the case should suggest. With regard to the office of the clerk of the pleas, about which so much discussion had taken place, the Irish government had arranged, that the fees of that office should be invested in the public treasury, until a final decision should be pronounced upon that subject, with regard to which an appeal was now pending in the House of Lords. As to the deputy clerk of the pleas, upon whose conduct one of the reports alluded to so particularly animadverted, the Irish government had felt it a duty to dismiss that person not only from that office, but from another office also, which he had held for many years.
Sir J. Newportdeclared, that he was much pleased with the reply of the right hon. gentleman. He was, indeed, encouraged to hope that such measures would

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be taken in consequence of the reports alluded to, as were essential to the ends of public justice.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply to which the Army Estimates were referred,
Lord Palmerstonrose, he said, to propose to the committee, the Army Estimates for the year. The detail of those estimates was so dry, that the House must, he presumed, feel desirous to have it brought within the shortest possible compass. With that desire he was quite wiling to comply, and he was glad to think that it was not necessary for him to enter at any length into the subject, in consequence of the Appendix to the Seventh Report* of the Finance Committee, which fully explained all that related to the details of the military expenditure. He should therefore confine himself to that which he hoped would be satisfactory to the House, namely, a statement of the reduction of expense under this head of the public service. The reduction in the

*Extract from the Seventh Report of the Finance Committee, Appendix p. 42.

STATEMENT showing the DIFFERENCE between the AMOUNT of the ESTIMATES of the ORDINARY SERVICES of the ARMY, as voted for 1817, and the AMOUNT of the same ESTIMATES for 1818.

Estimates for 1817.

Estimates for 1818.

More in 1818.

Less in 1818.

£.

s.

d.

£.

s.

d.

£.

s.

d.

£.

s.

d.

Land Forces (exclusive of France and India)

3,351,377

0

8

3,277,374

10

8

74,002

10

0

Staff (exclusive of France and India)

146,815

12

0

150,569

14

5

3,754

2

5

Public Departments

163,103

13

10

146,546

11

5

16,557

2

5

Medicines, &c

26,446

3

1

37,711

10

10

11,265

7

9

Volunteer Corps

106,665

9

7

123,541

9

9

16,876

0

2

Recruiting Troops, and Companies of Regiments in India

17,824

1

5

21,275

11

4

3,451

9

11

Royal Military college

28,155

4

9

25,514

16

9

2,640

8

0

Pay of General Officers

179,044

18

4

176,935

12

9

2,109

5

7

Garrisions

34,078

9

5

33,39S

19

5

679

10

0

Full Pay of Retired Officers

132,536

1

2

132,809

9

9

273

8

7

Half Pay and Military Allowances

679,550

4

11

682,763

15

10

3,213

10

11

Foreign Half Pay

133,462

0

0

136,385

0

0

2.923

0

0

Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals

1,009,529

12

6

1,111,154

9

7

101,624

17

1

Royal Military Asylum

34,415

5

5

32,851

0

3

1,564

5

2

Widows Pensions

98.984

9

0

98,874

11

2

109

17

10

Compassionate List, Bounty War-rants, and Pensions for Wounds

163,502

3

7

161,806

3

7

1,696

0

0

Reduced Adjutants of Local Militia

19,500

0

0

20,805

0

0

1,305

0

0

Superannuation Allowances

25,566

19

11

34,372

2

10

8,805

2

11

Exchequer Fees

35,000

0

0

35,000

0

0

Corps to be reduced

296,761

0

0

54,600

0

0

242,161

0

0

6,682,318

9

1

6,494,290

10

4

153,491

19

9

341,519

19

0

Deduct

6,494,290

10

4

153,491

19

9

Diminution of charge in 1818

188,027

19

3

188,027

19

3

expense of the army, comparing the present with the last year, would, he was happy to say amount to 188,027 l. 19 s. 3d. while the total reduction of charge in all the departments connected with our military establishment was no less than 418,000 l. Upon the score of numbers the diminution of the army in the present year, compared with the last, would at home amount to 1,995 effective men; while throughout the empire, including that in France, it would exceed 20,000, so that he would take the total reduction in round numbers at 22,000 men. In point of fact, however, it was right to state that the reduction of our force in Ireland was not so great as it appeared, for as it was impossible to equalize the effective force of regiments with nominal strength, the force in that country within the last year did not amount to the number actually voted. The amount of the land forces for the present year the noble lord stated at 25,000 for England, Guernsey and Jersey; 20,000 for Ireland; 33,000 for our old and new colonies; 17,360 for the territories of the East India company, ex-
elusive of recruiting troops and companies; and 20,126 for our contingent in France. Without going through any very minute details, the land forces might be stated at a reduction of 74,000 l. The staff was considerably increased; the sum he believed, was about 3,754 l. Considerable alterations would be found to have taken place in the estimates connected with the West Indies. There was a diminution of 16,557 l. in the item of public departments. In the office of the commander in chief, a diminution had taken place of 1,300 l.; and in the war-office a diminution of 6,436 l.; but this year a smaller sum was required, on account of the cessation of some of their expenses. In the other offices there would be found small articles of variation, all of which he should not enumerate. A most important change was the muster-master-general's office having been abolished, and the duties transferred to other offices. The reduction by that was 2,918 l. The whole of the reductions in the offices, &c. made upwards of 16,550 l. There was an increase in the item of medicines of 11,265 l. On that he might observe, that there was not an increase in the supply of medicines; but this year there had been bought and paid for a considerable quantity more than was necessary for the service of the year. In the item of volunteer corps there would be found an increase of 16,876 l. There was also an addition made to the East India troops for recruiting &c, of 3,451 l. The Royal Military College establishment was diminished by 2,640 l. There would be a difference in the estimates of this and next year on this point in the sum of 750 l. In the pay of general officers there was a diminution of 2,109 l. Upon the half pay and military allowances, there was an increase of 3,213 l., and in the foreign half pay of 2,923 l. In the hospitals of Chelsea and Kilmainham, including in and out pensioners, there was required a sum of 101,624 l. more than last year; but there might be alterations made in the course of the year by casualties and accidents which could not be exactly calculated upon. And it ought to be recollected, that there was to be deducted the sum of 35,314 l. The casualties, pensions, &c for the last four years had been on an average upwards of 180,000 l. annually. There was reason, however, to expect that in the present year the sum required would not be so great. In the Military Asylum there had been made a diminution of 1,561 l.; and in
704
the items of widow's pensions, there was a diminution of 109 l. In the compassionate list, there would be perceived a reduction of 1,696 l.; and in the item of reduced adjutants of local militia, an increase of 1,305 l. In the expenses of the troops in France, there was a reduction in the sum total of 175,183 l. In the West Indies there was a small increase arising from the circumstance that two of the regiments that went out had only remained part of the year. There would be found, upon the whole a saving in the total charge of troops, &c., inl818,ofthesum of 188,027 l. 19 s. 3d., and the whole charge, including the troops in France, India, &c, would be found to be less by 418,000 l., and the whole number of men in the estimate, when compared with the estimate of last year, was less by upwards of 21,000. The noble lord concluded by moving his first Resolution, viz. "That a number of land forces, not exceeding 113,640 men (including the forces stationed in France) and also 4,200 men proposed to be disbanded in 1818, but exclusive of the men belonging to the regiments now employed in the territorial possessions of the East India company, or ordered from thence to Great Britain, commissioned and noncommissioned officers included, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from 25th December 1817 to 24th December 1818."
Mr. Calcraftexpressed his conviction, that a still greater diminution should take place in our military establishment, than what the noble lord had stated. He could not, for instance, see the necessity of 25,936 men for the peace establishment of Great Britain, and 20,058 for that of Ireland. With regard to the numbers voted for the old and new stations, he did not feel himself competent to pronounce any decided opinion, although the amount of force for the former was so much more than in any former peace. But with respect to Great Britain and Ireland, he could not imagine the grounds upon which ministers could think such an establishment necessary; while there were 20,000 of our troops in France, he could not see why a smaller number than 25,936 would not be enough to vote for the present peace establishment of Great Britain. Was there any thing in the internal condition of England, which called for a larger peace establishment than we had in 1792, and that, which amounted only to 15,000 men,

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was the largest peace establishment this country had ever previously known? Surely it was not requisite to keep up an establishment of 25,936 men, in order to preserve the peace of England. He should not oppose such an establishment if he could conceive it necessary for the safety of the state. From the state of the House with so few members in attendance, he would not then press any proposition; but he should certainly feel it his duty to do so upon a future occasion. Having asked for some information as to the grounds upon which such an extraordinary peace establishment was deemed necessary for England, he would also take leave to inquire of the secretary of the Irish government, what were the circumstances which called for 20,000 men in Ireland, which was in fact, little less than double the usual peace establishment in that country; for, from his own knowledge, Ireland, although by no means in a state of prosperity, was thoroughly tranquil. That tranquillity was, indeed, preserved throughout the last winter, while the people were suffering the most severe privations under the pressure of unexampled distress, and the most afflicting disease. What, then, could justify the expense of such extraordinary establishments, especially in the present state of our finances? He would not then enter into the discussion of all the topics which were naturally connected with this subject, but upon the bringing up there port he would move for a farther reduction of the proposed establishment to the extent of 8 or 9,000 men.
Sir M. W. Ridleyexpressed his surprise, that it should be proposed to continue the Royal Waggon Train, for what occasion could there be for such an establishment during peace. There was also a considerable expense in the recruiting department, amounting in the whole to 17,000 l. which made the expense equal to the bounties. In the estimates he perceived a grant of pensions to the Military Colleges of 740 l. per annum. In so new an institution, such a grant should be an object of great suspicion. There was also a grant of 2,075 l. to a retired barrack-master, which required some explanation.
Lord Palmerstonstated, that with respect to the Royal Waggon Train, a part was stationed at Croydon, from whence detachments were sent to the army in France, a part was employed on the Military Canal, and another portion at
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Hilsea. There was no greater number than was required for the public service. As to the recruiting staff it consisted of inspecting field officers, who superintended the performance of the various duties of the district staffs; a paymaster, who attended to the accounts; a surgeon to inspect the recruits; and Serjeants to escort them to their respective depôts. With respect to the grant of a pension to the Military College, it arose from the warrant to a retired officer, after 15 years service pursuant to the warrant, by which the appointments in these colleges were made. An hon. gentleman had stated, that on a future occasion he would feel it his duty to move a farther reduction in the present estimates. As, however, the hon. gentleman did not then go into a statement of his reasons for the intended motion, he would abstain from any premature discussion. But he must be allowed to say, that the 26,000 men, taken in the estimates, could not be considered as wholly applicable to the home service; a portion must be applied to the relief of the foreign garrisons. These garrisons consisted of a force of 33,000 men. Nobody would pretend to say, that the regiments thus stationed should be exposed to perpetual banishment. It would be neither humane nor constitutional. Some period must, therefore, be assigned for the return home of these regiments. Ten years were considered the limit of garrison service abroad. Now, allowing that the reliefs would amount to one-tenth of the force in foreign garrisons, that amount would take away from the 26,000 men 3,000, for reliefs to be sent out. So that with these reliefs, and the defalcations arising from the non-effectives, the army for home service would not amount to more than between 18 and 19,000 men. The House would, therefore see that there was no very great excess between the force now kept up and the establishment of 1792, and that it was only such a difference as the alteration of circumstances between the two periods fully warranted.
Mr. Warreobserved, that the noble lord, in his various statements as to the necessity of our home force, seemed wholly to throw out of his contemplation our large army in France.
Mr. Peelsaid, the hon. gentleman should recollect that the present estimates were only demanded for a year. The country was bound by treaty to keep

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up, for a time specified, an army in France. As long, therefore, as we were bound by treaty to keep up that force, it was impossible to consider it as applicable to the home service, or to make under that head an allowance for it in the estimates. An hon. gentleman had expressed something like dissatisfaction that the reduction for Ireland was not greater, and that the force considered necessary for internal tranquillity should still amount to 20,000 men. After the unanimity that had marked the greater estimate two years ago, when the force admitted to be necessary was taken at 25,000 men, he confessed that he did expect the reduction and its causes would have been received with unmixed satisfaction. It was impossible for any man to demonstrate with mathematical accuracy the amount of force which the internal tranquillity of a country, situated as Ireland was, would require. It was a matter of grave opinion, and should be taken on the responsibility of those whose paramount duty it was to preserve the internal peace. The hon. gentleman considered that half the force, viz. 10,000 men, would be sufficient. Now as far back as 1767; under lord Townshend's administration, it was resolved that the force for Ireland should be 15,000,12,000 to be always detained in the country, and 3,000 for general service. But when it became a duty to estimate the necessary amount for Ireland, it would be idle to revert to distant periods. The true standard by which a judgment should be formed of the present estimates, was the number of men that within recent periods had been employed. He admitted that it was a period of war. But since the peace of Amiens there had been no apprehension of invasion—no vulnerable point on the Irish frontier. The force maintained during those years, large as it was, was in support of the civil power. He had, therefore, to congratulate the House on the improved state of the internal circumstances of that country. In consequence of that improvement, government were enabled to make a reduction both in the regular and yeomanry force of Ireland; and measures were in operation to reduce still farther the latter description of force—The hon. member had truly observed, that during the last winter great tranquillity had prevailed in Ireland. The hon, gentleman was perfectly correct in the statement, and it was with great jus-
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tice and peculiar gratification he himself must say, that under the pressure of privations, perhaps unexampled, no people had ever displayed more endurance, resignation, and magnanimity, than the people of that country. A sum of 37,000 l. had been advanced by the government to local subscriptions of charity. No money could be more wisely dispensed, nor could be received with greater gratitude. But whilst he spoke thus of the tranquillity of Ireland, it was nevertheless true, that some outrages had occurred. They were, perhaps, inseparable from the peculiar state of society there. Government had been applied to by the magistracy in some instances to put the insurrection act in operation. The application was refused, and the refusal was owing to the power it possessed of supporting the civil power by a military force stationed through the country. Much benefit was also to be attributed to the extension of the civil authorities in that country.
Sir W. Burroughsdenied that it was the usage to keep up in Ireland a large military establishment. In the American war the people of that country had to complain of the total inadequacy of the force to meet the dangers then arising from the apprehension of an invasion. There were not 5,000 soldiers in Ireland when the volunteers were embodied. He was proud of the account the House had received that night from authority, as to the fortitude and magnanimity of its people under unequalled sufferings. It ought to afford an instructive lesson to the government. At afflictions uncontrollable by man the Irish people never murmured, but oppressions springing from ill-treatment and misrule, they ever did, and he hoped ever would, resist. With regard to the present estimates, he could not avoid expressing his surprise at their amount. In the third year of peace, to hear of a force of 90,600 men must be a source of astonishment. How was the country to support such an expenditure? Where was it to end? The revenue of the last year amounted to 51,000,000 l. The expenditure was 65,000,000 l. leaving a deficit of 14,000,000 l. And yet, with such financial difficulties staring them in the face, the noble lord held out no hope or suggestion of future reductions beyond the reduction of 4,200 men. The expense of such an establishment as now proposed was 6,000,000 l. How was it

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to be met? Were we to have a qualified property tax amongst all our other public burthens?—or must the faith with the public creditor be broken, by an appropriation of the sinking fund to the expenses of our establishments? Much credit had been taken for the reduction of the yeomanry in Ireland. What did that reduction amount to? Out of a yeomanry force of 44,000 men, in time of peace 3,000 were reduced. In England, out of 30,000 men, the mighty reduction of 279 men had taken place, while, when we were at peace with all the world, an addition of near 3,000 had been made to the yeomanry; he supposed to preserve the internal tranquillity of this country.
Mr. Babingtonexpressed a hope that the soldiers receiving pensions might be freed from certain inconveniences to which he understood they were at present exposed.
Mr. C. Longdeclared his readiness to concur in any suggestions that might be proposed by the hon. member for effecting so desirable an object; but he had flattered himself that his own exertions in respect to that point, had not been altogether unavailing.
Mr. Forbescomplained that a list of the officers who received pensions for wounds had not been laid on the table; and regretted that in respect to pensions, the officers of the navy were not placed on an equal footing with the officers of the army. He feared there were many cases of abuse in the granting of pensions to the latter.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, it was not usual to lay on the table such a list as that alluded to by the hon. gentleman, but if the hon. gentleman thought proper to move for it, he would make no objection to its production: it would, however, take a long time to make out. He denied that there was any partiality shown to the army with respect to pensions. Pensions were granted to the officers of each service by departments wholly unconnected with one another; so that any thing like partiality was out of the question. As to any abuses in the granting of pensions to the officers of the army, he had in consequence of what had been said in that House last session, investigated the subject minutely, and he had not been able to discover a single instance of such abuse.
Mr. Forbesobserved, that he had heard of several cases of gross abuse.
Lord Palmerstonrequested the hon.
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member to communicate those cases to him in private, and if he found that any pension had been withdrawn which ought to be continued, or that any pension was continued which ought to have been withdrawn, he would endeavour to rectify the error.
Sir F. Floodexpressed his high satisfaction at what had fallen from the noble viscount and the right hon. gentleman., with respect to the loyalty and good disposition of Ireland, and the patience with which the people of that country had endured the various hardships and privations to which they had been subjected. There was not a more sincere friend of Ireland than himself; indeed, whoever was not a friend to both countries, could not be a friend to either. He was as independent a man as any in that House, being bound to adhere to neither side of it. He never had received any thing, and he looked for nothing from any party. He would, therefore, be the last man to agree to any act of that House which he considered unjust or oppressive towards his native country. But he was bound to say, that he did not think the vote of 20,000 men for Ireland extravegant. They were dispersed over the country, and their weight was not felt. The whole people of Ireland, without any reference to religion, were loyal. Of this fact, the late war afforded abundant proof. Half our marine in the late war was composed of Irish Catholics, and a great part of our army of Irish Catholics and Protestants; and he knew of no single instance among them of desertion and disloyalty. The attachment of that country should be fostered. Ireland (exclaimed the hon. baronet) is the right arm of the empire. If you lose Ireland, what will become of you? You ought to embrace her with both arms to the end of time, as your nearest, dearest, and best of friends.
The several resolutions founded upon the Army Estimates were then put and agreed to.

BANK TOKENS.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,in pursuance of notice, moved for leave to bring in a bill to suspend the penalties for receiving bank tokens in certain cases, after the 25th of March instant. The object of this bill was to afford means after the general, circulation of these tokens was stopped, for their being still received for various purposes. If gentlemen going down to the

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quarter sessions, would but take a bag of silver with him to enable them to take in exchange bank tokens from the poor labourers in their neighbourhood, much might be done for the public. He supposed, from the extraordinary facility given last year in the issuing of the new silver coinage to the taking the old silver, the public expected this year some similar arrangement. They did not reflect on the difference between the two cases. As government did not issue these tokens, it could not be expected to enter into a complicated and expensive arrangement for receiving these tokens in exchange for silver coin. In this bill he proposed that provision should be made for allowing any person to pay or receive bank tokens twelve months after the 25th of March for taxes. Provision in like manner would be made for allowing them to be taken for rent. In these cases, and all others, where the tokens were not passed in general circulation, but paid to individuals for the purpose of being ultimately remitted to London, he proposed the penalties should be suspended. The House would see how far this measure answered the purpose he had in view, of withdrawing the bank tokens from circulation, with as little inconvenience as possible to the public.
Mr. F. Lewisstated, that the current price of silver that day was 5s. 6d. an ounce, and from the state of our paper currency the price must rise still higher. If it should reach 5s. 8d or 5s. 9d. an ounce, the silver currency would gradually disappear. Fortunately for the country a considerable part of the bank tokens were still in circulation. If these tokens, however, should be withdrawn from circulation, and in consequence of the rise of silver, the other currency should go to the melting pot, they might still probably be again obliged to have resource to the Bank to issue a coinage of their own. He thought that in these matters a great want of foresight prevailed—they did not even grope their way—they took no measures to avoid the danger, but allowed themselves to run blindly on it. It was probable we should soon lose our silver coinage, and the expense to which that coinage had put the country.
General Thorntonthought that if the bank tokens were excluded from circulation, local silver tokens should be excluded also; but he thought it useful that the local tokens should be kept in circula-
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tion. He never heard that any had been forged.
Mr. J. Smith,though not aware that the price of silver was so high as had been represented, thought that under circumstances it might rise higher. The loans at Paris might materially affect it; but he derived consolation from another point. He had for many years observed the conduct of the Bank of England, and he thought that corporation had the means and used them, of influencing the state of the currency. He thought they possessed those means now, and could protect the public by affording a check to the exportation of bullion. He conceived the present bill might be of considerable service.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, that if the receivers of taxes remitted the bank tokens directly to London, considerable relief, would be given to the public; but if after receiving tokens for taxes they paid them-into the country banks, the relief would fall short of the general expectation. He could not help thinking it adviseable that they should be allowed to circulate for a longer period.
Mr. Grenfellthought the effect of the bill would be, to continue the circulation of tokens without restraint, as no penalties were attached to the future circulation of them. They might not only be received for rent, but be also immediately put into use again, unless a penalty were affixed. However, if it should be otherwise, and silver should not rise, in what mode were the tokens to be transmitted to London? It was incumbent on government to bear this expense, and not to thrust it on gentlemen. It had been said, that government was not concerned in the issue of these tokens, and therefore ought not to defray any expense attending them. He was of a very different opinion, and thought it the duty of government to assist in carrying on the ordinary exchange of the country. The expense would not, perhaps, be considerable; it might not exceed ¾ per cent for forwarding the tokens from all parts, but that expense ought to fail on government, and not on the country bankers, especially as they had been so active, and had afforded such facilities in the distribution of the late coinage.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he was not prepared for the observation of the hon. gentleman as to the rise in the price of silver, because in many instances

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he believed it had fallen. If it should rise considerably, he thought there might be some difficulty; but he conceived the only way to preserve the Mint currency, was to remove this rival currency from circulation. Hitherto it had produced no inconvenience; but he apprehended the tokens might drive silver into the meltingpot, if a crisis should occur when such a course might prove to be profitable.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

CLIMBING BOYS.
Lord Hollandpresented a Petition from certain Master Chimney Sweepers of London and Westminster, in favour of the Chimney Sweepers' Regulation bill. Petitions to the same effect were also presented by lord Prudhoe, from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and Kingsland, Dalston, &c.; by the earl of Lauderdale from Hackney, Homerton, and Clapton; by lord Holland from Clerkenwell; and by earl Grosvenor from Chester. On presenting the last-mentioned petition, earl Grosvenor hoped that this horrible practice would be put an end to by the legislature. The earl of Lauderdale was desirous there should be evidence before the House to prove, that all the chimneys in England could be swept by means of machinery. The bishop of Chester concurred in the object of the petition, and hoped the practice would be abolished. The Petitions were ordered to lie upon the table.