Sitting of 18 February 1818

MOTION FOR A COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OF THE CITY PRISONS.
Mr. Alderman Woodrose, pursuant to the notice he had given on this subject. It would, he said, be unnecessary for him to take up the time of the House by any arguments in support of the motion which he intended to submit. That some evils existed in the City Prisons was admitted by most of the honourable members who had spoken upon the subject. He himself admitted that something, and a good deal, might be done for ameliorating the condition of the prisoners, and also, that some alterations in the prisons themselves were necessary; but he could not allow that all the complaints which had been made in the House on the subject were well-founded. When a greater number of prisoners were confined in the prisons than was convenient, the noble secretary of state, whose particular department embraced a superintendence over them, was always most ready to remove the too great number. With respect to the complaints which had been made against the magistrates of London, he thought they were unfounded, and he was certain that his hon. friend (Mr. Bennet) would find it so on more strict
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inquiry. No man had a higher respect for that hon. gentleman than he had, and no man was better aware of the great good which his humane exertions had produced; but he believed the hon. gentleman would find himself mistaken in imagining that any of the evils of which he had complained had arisen from the neglect of the magistrates. The fact was, the magistrates did as much as was in their power. If there was an evil existing,— and without meaning to impute blame to any quarter, he should say there was—it arose from the inability of the magistrates to commit to any other prisons than those they new do. This produced an almost constant crowding of one or two prisons. Since he became a magistrate the number of prisoners transmitted to Newgate from Middlesex was increased in the proportion of seven to one. Another evil which existed, and which applied rather to the prisoners than to the prisons, was that of sending off so many in the same vessel for transportation, and sending them at inclement seasons. One instance of the bad effects of that system he would state, and he did so from the best authority. In February 1814, a ship was sent off with 200 convicts for New South Wales, and out of that number not less than 50 died on the passage. The reason was, they were sent out in a cold season; they after, when they got beyond the line, got into a very warm climate, and then again into a cold one, when sailing in the high southern latitudes. This was a circumstance which he conceived required investigation, at least which called for that consideration which might prevent a similar evil. His object on the present occasion in saying what he did was not with a view of defending the magistrates, for he thought their conduct needed no defence; but he was anxious the House should know that a great deal of what they wished to do with respect to prisons was at present out of their power. He concluded by moving, "That a committee be appointed to examine into the state of Newgate and the other prisons within the city of London and the borough of Southwark, and to report their observations together with the minutes of evidence taken before them, to the House."
Mr. Bennetobserved, that it was not his intention to oppose the motion, but he wished to offer one or two remarks on what he had said upon the subject on a

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former occasion. It was true what he then stated, that one of the great evils in Newgate was the crowed state of it. This great number of persons rendered it almost impossible to prevent the mixture of persons which might now be observed. The old and the young, the veteran criminal and the juvenile depredator, were indiscriminately huddled together. There was no school where the young prisoners might be taught something, nor any separate place where they might be kept free from the contamination of more vicious persons than themselves. But this was not the only charge which might be made with respect to Newgate. He would show to the committee about to be appointed, that the clothing of the prisoners was by no means attended to. He had seen, in a recent visit to the prison, a child who might be said to be literally naked. He had no shoes or stockings, no small clothes, and with the exception of a few rags which hung about him, he had nothing to screen him from the inclemency of the weather. This child had been seen in that state by the sheriffs and the magistrates, and no relief had been afforded to him. He did not attach particular blame to them, but he could not see the child in the state he was without believing that blame rested somewhere. The next thing which he had to complain of was, that the prisoners had not a sufficient supply of wholesome food. What they had was bad and scanty, and, indeed, those of the prisoners who were not assisted by their friends, might be said to be in a starving condition. The appearance of many of them bespoke their wants; and he could tell if a number of prisoners were before him, who had been longest in prison from that squalor carceris which was visible in their appearance. The bread which was served out to them was of the very worst quality. This he should be able to prove before the committee, and it was acknowledged by those whose duty it was to look to such matters; for within a few days, and since the present motion had been noticed in the House, the baker who usually supplied the prison with bread, had been changed for another person. When the committee should visit the prison it was more than probable they would find it in a much better situation than that in which he had seen it, for he understood that the court of aldermen had, within a few days, taken great pains to have it cleaned, and
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such was their anxiety to have it in order before the arrival of any of the committee to examine it, that they had not even respected the Sabbath. It appeared that the whole of last Sunday a number of persons were employed in putting several parts of the prison which had been previously out of repair, into some tolerable state, which might bear inspection. It was probable that if the committee examined it, it would appear in the court dress in which it had been put, in the expectation of its being reviewed. He did not, as he said before, intend to offer any opposition to the committee; but he hoped that when it should have terminated its inquiry, the prisons would be put into something like a state of cleanliness, and order, and that they would no longer continue what they now were— the scenes of wretchedness, and the schools of vice.
Sir W. Curtiscomplained, that the statements made by the hon. gentleman were highly exaggerated. He did not mean to charge the hon. member with stating that which was not true; but he considered that the statements would not bear him out in the way he put them. It had been said, that the provisions given to the prisoners were scanty as to quantity, and their quality was bad. He denied the fact. Every prisoner was allowed four pounds of good meat per week, and 14 ounces of bread per day; and he had no hesitation in saying, that the bread was of as good quality as any gentleman in the House would desire to eat. The hon. gentleman had said, that preparation had been made in the prison within a few days in order to receive the committee; but he could declare, upon his honour, that no alteration whatever had been made with that view, and that no hints, as far as he could learn, had been given to any person of the intended visit of the committee. It was true that some of the windows had not long ago been wantonly broken by the prisoners, and the magistrates refused to have them repaired, unless the prisoners themselves undertook it, or gave up the names of those who were concerned in it. The prisoners refused to give up the names, and they were made to feel the effects of their own ill-conduct. With respect to the work which had been done on Sunday, he could only say, that he had not heard of the circumstance before. But he would ask the House whether it was right, that they who were imprisoned

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for their crimes, should be supported in luxury? They were not sent to prison with a view of consulting their particular inclinations, but in order that they might be punished for their misconduct. The treatment they received beyond what the law ordered was not severe, and their comfort was studied as much as was necessary to persons in their situations.
Mr. Bennetsaid, that most of what he had stated had fallen within his own observation. He had seen and tasted some of the bread lately in use, and he found it sour and disagreeable. He had himself made inquiries on the subject, and it was admitted to him that the bread before in use, was bad, that formerly it used to be baked in tins, but that at present it was made like the bread in common use. With respect to the white-washing and the cleaning of the prison, he had seen it himself, and the worthy baronet might also have seen it, if as a magistrate he had attended to his duty and been present.
Mr. warregave full credit to the statement made by his hon. friend, as to the probability of the prisons appearing in a court dress on the day the committee might visit them. He remembered that when as a member of a committee appointed about two years ago to examine into the state of the borough Compter, he went with some of his brother committee men to inspect it; they found glaziers, bricklayers, &c. as numerous almost as the prisoners, busily employed in making arrangements for the visit of the committee, which was, however, made a little sooner than they expected it. He had no doubt that recourse would be had to similar expedients at present. With respect to the necessity of a strict and frequent investigation of the state of the prisons, there could not exist a doubt in the minds of any who had given the subject the slightest consideration. He would state to the House one case which called loudly for inquiry. It was not a case resting on report. It was on the sworn depositions of several persons. It was the report of an inquest held before Hugh Lewis, esq. the coroner, on the body of a man, named John Birdie, aged 37, who died in Tothill-fields prison. From the deposition of the turnkey it appeared, that the deceased had been confined along with twenty seven persons in a room which was only ten feet by six. It appeared farther on the inquest, from the evidence of Mr. Hanbury, the surgeon,
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that his death was caused more from want of proper nourishment than clothing. After the coroner had examined Mr. Hanbury, and questions had been put to him by several of the jurors, the turnkey was again called in and examined, and from his very great prevarication in his evidence, the coroner threatened to commit him. Now, he would ask, whether with such evidence of the misconduct of that man, he had since been dismissed from his situation? He should beg the attention of the House to the result of the inquest. The jury sat about three o'clock, and after having heard all the evidence, they retired for a short time, and about nine o'clock they returned a verdict, "that the deceased came by his death from the want of proper nourishment and medical attendance." This matter he conceived called for most particular inquiry, and he trusted such inquiry would be made.
The motion for the committee was then put and agreed to, and a committee appointed.

CHIMNEY SWEEPERS REGULATION BILL.
On presenting a Petition from York in favour of this bill,
Lord Miltonsaid, it was not his intention to offer any remarks on the nature of the bill which had been brought in by his hon. friend. He thought it was one which did his hon. friend much credit, and he wished it success; but he could not avoid expressing his opinion, that his hon. friend was proceeding too hastily. There were, it was known, many chimneys which could only be swept by climbing boys, and which would be rendered useless if the present bill was passed. Under these considerations, he thought it would be better for the House to adopt a middle course, and without making such a general enactment at once to give particular encouragement to those persons who swept chimneys by means of machinery. If this were done, and a heavy tax laid upon the employment of climbing boys, he thought it would in the course of time have the effect of abolishing the practice altogether.
Mr. Bennetsaid, that the number of petitions which had been presented to the House was a proof that the present practice was very generally admitted to be an evil, which ought to be got rid of as soon as possible. It was with that view he had brought in his bill, and now an objection was started, that there were a number of

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chimneys too small to be swept in any other manner than by the use of climbing boys. It was true there were a great many chimneys of that description, but they belonged to those who could well afford to alter them if they pleased. But it was in that very description of chimneys that the greatest danger to the lives of the climbing boys existed. Not fever than five children had lost their lives by such means, in the course of the last year. Nor was this to be wondered at, when it was known, that in some houses recently built, the chimneys were only seven inches square, and that the children employed to sweep them could not be more than four or five years old. Yet with such facts admitted, was it to be said, that the House was proceeding in a hurry? In a hurry to do what? To save the lives of those poor little creatures who were constantly exposed to death, and that too of the most terrible nature. But it could not fairly be said that he wished to proceed in a hurry, if he proposed to make the bill operative in 1819, in order that time might be given to all the parties affected by it, to make those alterations which the new mode of sweeping chimneys would require. He could not agree in what had fallen from his noble friend; it would have the effect of sacrificing the children of the poor in order to preserve the chimneys of the rich—a thing so monstrous in itself, that he was certain no man would let it dwell in his thoughts for a moment.
Lord Miltonhoped his hon. friend would recollect, that his objections were not made to the proposed measure per se. They only went to effect a more mature consideration of the probable consequences of it. It should be considered, that the measure might probably be viewed differently in another place, where measures upon which the House had been unanimous, were altogether rejected. This made it necessary to examine the matter minutely before a final decision was given.
Mr. Lylteltontrusted, that the House would not neglect any thing which it was their duty to do, from a consideration of what might be done in another place. He had, however, no doubt that the humane and energetic arguments which his hon. friend had used in support of the measure, would also have their effect in the other place alluded to. With respect to a tax on the use of climbing boys, he thought that such a plan would not have the intended effect. It might operate certainly
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in raising the prices for the sweeping of chimneys, but it would still lay the same road open to abuses as before; for the rich would have the means of paying for the use of boys in sweeping, and would thereby be the means of encouraging the sacrifice of human life, which it was now sought to avoid.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

GAME BILL.
Mr. G. Bankessaid, that in the motion which he was about to make, he expected the support, not of those members alone who were anxious to protect the game of the country, but of those also who were solicitous to diminish the number of offences connected with the unlawful destruction of ganie. Most of these offences would be got rid of, if the legislature could effectually prevent the buying and selling of game; for it seldom happened that poachers killed game for sustenance, or for the mere gratification, of their own tastes. As the law stood at present, all persons, qualified and unqualified, were forbidden to sell game. Unqualified persons were also virtually forbidden to purchase game, but there was no such restriction on qualified persons. His wish was to put all persons on the same footing in this respect; and by the bill, for which he was about to move, to enact, that all persons, qualified or not, should be liable to the same penalties for buying game as those inflicted by the existing law on unqualified persons so purchasing it. The hon. gentleman then moved, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the farther preventing of offences connected with the unlawful destruction and sale of game."
Mr. Curwen,thought the proposition of the hon. gentleman quite inadequate to the attainment of the object in view. It would only go to make the game laws still more odious than they were. He was by no means one of those who thought this not a fit subject for legislation. On the contrary, he was fully impressed with the advantages of increasing the inducements to gentlemen to reside in the country, by protecting the game for their amusement. But while the present oppressive and unjust code of laws existed on the subject, it was in vain to think of putting an end to the crimes which they generated. At present the right of game was confined to landed proprietors. Now it was well known that in this country the proportion

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which commercial property bore to landed property, was as seven to one. He could see no objection to making game private property, up to a certain extent, and to doing away all qualifications not founded on property. Severe penalties were never productive of the effect intended by them. While the plundering of a farmer's field of turnips and such articles was felony by law, the practice was general, as the punishment was too severe to be inflicted; but as soon as it was reduced to a moderate fine, the practice entitely ceased. He strongly recommended the hon. gentleman not to content himself with so inefficient a proposition as that which he had just made, but to go to the root of the evil, and endeavour to reform the whole system of the game laws. As to making the purchase of game penal, the only consequence would be, that the smaller culprits would be punished, while those of more importance would escape. For instance, such an individual as the lord mayor of London must have game. He would not purchase it himself, but others would purchase it for him; and this would take place, whatever statutes the legislature might enact.
Mr. Warrewas surprised that his hon. friend could imagine that in the present state, temper, and constitution of society, any legislative measure could effectually prevent the sale of game. But two years ago an hon. member brought in a bill on this subject, the enactments of which were so severe that it was deemed expedient to repeal it last session. The hon. member who had just sat down, had given his hon. friend good counsel, although it would be no easy task to set about reforming the whole system of the game laws. On this subject he had that morning met with a passage in Mr. Justice Blackstone, which he would read to the House. It was as follows:—"Though the forest laws are now mitigated, and by degrees grown entirely obsolete, yet from this root has sprung a bastard slip, known by the name of the game law, now arrived to, and wantoning in, its highest vigour: both founded upon the same unreasonable notions of permanent property in wild creatures; and both productive of the same tyranny to the commons; but with this difference, that the forest laws established only one mighty hunter throughout the land, the game laws have raised a little Nimrod in every manor."*
*4 Comm. 416.
Mr. G. Bankesprofessed himself wholly incompetent to execute the task which the hon. member for Carlisle wished him to undertake. All he desired was, to make the game laws something better if he could. The omission which the proposed bill tended to supply, appeared to him to be a casual one, and easily to be remedied.
Sir C. Burrellthought the bill proposed by the hon. gentleman would be beneficial, by putting the rich and the poor on an equal footing. It had been most justly said by the late Mr. Fox, that, without a violation of the laws of property, he could not see how the game laws could be much altered at present.
The House divided: Ayes, 60; Noes, 28.

NORTHERN CIRCUIT.
Mr. M. A. Taylor, pursuant to the notice he gave yesterday, moved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider whether any and what steps may be necessary to be taken to give to the counties of Westmorland, Cumberland, Northumberland, and Durham, and the town and county of Newcastle upon Tyne, the same advantages of assizes twice in each year as are now possessed by all the other counties in England and Wales; and to report their opinion thereupon to the House."—The motion was agreed to, and a committee was accordingly appointed.

ELECTION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. Wynnhaving moved the farther consideration of the report of this bill, said, he was desirous of proposing a clause, which might obviate an objection made when the bill was going through the committee. The objection was, that in some counties there were separate general sessions of the peace and quarter sessions, holden for the different divisions of such counties, and that in such places the session might elapse without the bill being taken any notice of. To prevent this, he should propose the following clause:—"And whereas in some counties there are separate general sessions of the peace, and quarter sessions holden for the different divisions of such counties: be it further enacted, that in all such cases the high sheriff shall summon a general session of all the justices of the peace for such county, by public advertisement, to be holden at such place where such general sessions or meetings are usually holden, upon some day not more than two months
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from the passing of this act, for the purpose of carrying this act into execution; where such appointment of the number of the polling places for such county shall be made, subject to the like regulations herein before directed."—The clause was agreed to.—Mr. Wynn then said, that on the suggestion of the member for Rochester, he should propose an amendment to the ninth clause; although it did not occur to him that in its present state it could produce the inconveniences he apprended.
Mr. Barnettfeared it would be attended with some evil, if, according to the provisions of the clause in question, it became necessary that 400 voters should have polled on the second day. He knew that in the place which he had the honour of representing, the question of residence was frequently agitated, and often gave rise to such delay as would render it very difficult to poll 400 voters by the close of the second day.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that the bill provided for the erection of many booths in which the undisputed voters might be received. There was, besides, to be another booth in which the returning officer should sit to decide upon any such questions as that of residence. This would, in his opinion, obviate the inconvenience. The returning officer would thus be enabled to settle disputed cases, while the poll was going on without interruption in the other booths.
Mr. Lambsaid, he felt considerable alarm from many provisions of the bill. The necessity that 400 voters should have polled on the second day, unless it could be proved that they were prevented by riot from making their appearance, went to place a dangerous kind of power in the hands of the returning officer. That power being subject to inquiry before the House, would be hardly a sufficient guard against the abuse of it. The returning officer by this means might be enabled to decide immediately upon the election of a candidate, in cases where, if not prevented by riot from voting, the other candidate might have had a superior number of electors. It might frequently happen, as it did in the late election for Norfolk, that a candidate could not bring up a sufficient number of voters at the time provided by the act. For these reasons he was desirous that such parts of the bill as were questionable might be either postponed or their operations merely tried at any elections which might take place during the sitting of the present parliament.
Sir. W. Burroughswould agree that there were some objections to the bill. In the borough which he represented, many of the electors lived at some distance from the place in which the election was held. Some as far as ten or twelve miles. The bill, with respect to many, would have the effect either of disfranchising them, or of throwing upon candidates the unnecessary expense of bringing up non-resident electors. He feared that some of its provisions held out no small temptation to riot.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, it did not appear to him, that it was too much to require, that 400 voters should have polled on the second day. The clause, which made an exception to this, in the event of riot, so far from encouraging that evil, would, he thought, contribute to lessen it. Persons would then be more cautious in commencing any disturbance to prevent voters from attending at the polling places, because such disturbance would naturally give rise to a suspicion that it originated in unworthy motives. The bill did not require that each candidate should, on the second day, have polled 400 voters, but that 400 on the whole should have voted. As to the inconvenience of bringing up non-resident voters, he believed, whatever the candidates might feel upon the score of expense, that such voters had no objection to come occasionally as well to see their friends, as from some other little considerations that might be of service to them. The clause could not be attended with inconvenience to the candidate, whose strength lay principally in non-resident voters.
Lord Miltondid not think that the clause in question could be attended with the inconveniencies which some gentlemen seemed to apprehend. The committee to which the measure was referred for consideration, were not of opinion that to require 400 persons to have polled on the second day, could be of any inconvenience. An objection was made in the committee, that an unfair advantage might be taken of the clause against those candidates whose strength lay principally in non-resident electors. He did not think that any danger of an unfair election could arise from this. The only thing he wished to suggest was, that throughout the bill, wherever the word polled occurred it might be struck out, for the purpose of inserting the words "tendered their votes." This, in his mind, would be a considerable improvement
Mr. Marryatfeared that the bill would throw an unnecessary expense upon candidates, by obliging them to bring up voters at a time when there was no occasion for them. For this and other reasons he was desirous that it should be postponed.
Sir W. Burroughscould not but apprehend that the bill would cause great inconvenience and unnecessary expense, in many cases, to candidates whose strength lay in non-resident electors. In the heat of an expected contest they would naturally be induced to bring up as many voters as the bill required, even when there was no occasion for them.
Mr. W. Smithsaid, he knew many instances of election, in which 400 voters were nor polled on the two first days, nor upon any day up to the tenth. The clause requiring that such a number should poll, would have the effect of placing within the reach of the returning officer a great degree of partiality in the exercise of his power. He might continue to object to any single vote even for the space of two hours.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that the number of booths for receiving votes which the bill provided would obviate the inconvenience apprehended. It did not matter how long the returning officer might be deciding upon a disputed vote, because, in the meantime, the election would be going on in the other booths. From all he had heard upon the subject, the opinion seemed to be, that any candidate who, on the two first days, was not able to bring up 400 electors, could have no chance of success. Such being the case, would they now, by postponing the bill, leave all the cities and counties throughout the kingdom subject to the inconvenience, and candidates to the unnecessary expense of a protracted election? This might be done as the law stood at present, by any individual who could on each day bring up seven electors. There were numerous instances of this. In Devonshire the poll was kept open for three days by a person who had only nineteen votes. In Bristol it was not closed for nine or ten days. In the county of Berks it was kept open for fifteen days by an individual who Gould bring forward only 500 votes. He remembered a borough, in which there were only 200 electors, and in which the poll was not closed in it for eleven days. Such were the evils which were intended to be provided against by the measure.
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Knowing that they existed, he would submit it to the House whether it would be politic to postpone the bill to a more distant period.
Mr. Lushingtonexpressed his hopes, that the bill would be put into such a shape as would secure its passing into a law.
Mr. Broughamsaid, he was a friend to the principle of the bill, and to most of its details; but he had some doubts as to the number of 400. Perhaps it would be better to have a smaller number of voters or a greater number of days. An objection might also be made to throwing the expense of the candidates upon the electors, and perhaps the present time might be regarded as peculiarly unfit. The clause respecting the assessment to the land tax, was much to be approved of, as since the redemption of the land tax the present mode was almost equal to a forfeiture of the qualification.
General Thorntonwas of opinion, that the clause would increase the expense of bringing down the outlying voters; an exception should therefore be made in their favour, or else the clause should be withdrawn. Instances had occurred of the poll having been kept open after the third candidate had withdrawn, to enable the second candidate to get to the head of the poll.
Sir W. Burroughssaid, that the bill ought to be recommitted. Should that not be agreed to, he should feel it his duty to move that the House be counted.
Mr. Wynnthought he had cause to complain of the proceeding of the hon. gentleman, as the bill had already been put off for ten days, that there might be ample time to consider the subject. He should move that the bill be re-committed for to-morrow, and he hoped it would be read a third time the next day. If gentlemen would look to the case of Norwich, they would find that 3000 voters had polled in the course of two days. That fact appeared to him a sufficient justification of the clause in the bill respecting the 400 voters that were required to poll in the course of two days.
The bill was ordered to be recommitted to-morrow.