Sitting of 4 February 1818

INFORMATIONS EX-OFFICIO.
Mr. W. Smithsaid, he had brought forward yesterday, respecting the expence of obtaining coppice of informations from the Crown-office, that it was not open to any of those objections which had been urged against it. He then moved, "That there be laid before this House, an Account of the Fees which have been taken by the Clerks in the Crown-officio for Libel, given to persons accused, or to others on their behalf, applying for the same, during the years 1816 and 1817; specifying the rate according to which the charge is made, the total sum in each particular case, and to whose or what use the same is applied."—The motion was agreed to.

VOTES OF THE HOUSE.
On the mo-

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tion forgoing into a Committee of Supply,
Lord Folkestonesaid, that according to the ancient usage of the House, he took that opportunity of pointing out a recent alteration, by which the public were aggrieved he meant the alteration which had lately taken place in the mode of printing the Votes of that House. He had neglected to refer to it at the time of the renewal of the sessional orders, and he took the present as the most proper remaining opportunity for doing so. The House would recollect, that in the last session a change was made in the manner of publishing the votes, with a view to the convenience of members; and, on the whole, that change was beneficial. But there was one part of that arrangement which was injurious to the public; and that was the circumstance, that no petitions were printed in the votes, except such as were expressly ordered to be printed by a specific vote, which were published in an appendix. He was aware that a great number of petitions had been presented in the last session, and that the accumulation of these documents had been the chief cause of the extent to which the votes had been swelled, and the consequent delay which occurred in the publication of them. But he thought it a matter of respect which the House owed to its constituents and to the people, to publish those complaints which were transmitted to it, and delay might be equally avoided by the publication of these petitions, as a matter of course, "in the appendix, as the select ones now were. It was true, that in every instance in which any member had moved that a petition be printed, no objection had been made; but the very fact, that a question was necessary previous to the printing, made an opening for objections; and it was a fair matter of complaint, on the part of the people, that their requests, when received by the House were not printed as a matter of course. The Votes of the House were the only regular way in which its proceedings were made public; and the old votes seemed to be adapted to that purpose. He had not made up his mind to submit any motion to the House: but he had thought fit to put them on their guard against the consequence of a measure which might lead to an imputation, that they did not attend to the prayers of the people.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES—EXCHEQUER BILLS.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
Sir George Warrenderrose to move the Navy Estimates. He said there was this year a small increase in the supply for this branch of the public service. The committee of finance had foreseen the possibility of such an increase. The addition this year was 1,000 sailors and 1,000 marines. The whole amount of men now was 20,000 sailors and marines. The cause of this small increase was the necessity of keeping up an establishment at St. Helena, and the state of South America. The rate of pay was somewhat higher in peace than war, because the proportion of able seamen to landmen was greater in time of peace, in order that the fleet might be more speedily put on a good footing, in case of emergency. The charge of ordnance was somewhat increased. A ship which in time of war had a complement of 480 men, in peace had but 300, although the number of guns remained the same. The charge for ordnance was therefore increased in the proportion of from four to seven shillings per man per month. He then moved, 1. "That 20,000 men be employed for the sea service for 13 months, from the 1st of January, 1818, including 6,000 royal marines. 2. That 611,000 l. be granted for wages of the said 20,000 men, at the rate of 2l. 7s. per man per month. 3. That 520,000 l. be granted for victuals for the said 20,000 men, at the rate of 2l. per man per month. 4. That 559.000 l. be granted for the wear and tear of the ships in which the said 20,000 men are to serve, at the rate of 2l. 3s. per man per month. 5. That 91,000 l. be granted for ordnance for sea service on board the ships in which the said 20,000 men are to serve, at the rate of 7s. per man per month."—The said motions were agreed to.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had now to propose a vote of Exchequer bills to provide for other Exchequer bills which were now outstanding. He should take this opportunity to give a brief view of the state of the unfunded debt. At an early period in the last session, 24 millions were issued, which were now outstanding. This sum he now proposed to provide for. After that another sum of 18 millions was issued, which was outstanding, which he did not now intend to replace. There was in the last session another sum of

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nine millions issued, and six millions had been issued in 1816. For both these sums he intended to propose to provide, and these votes, and the usual annual taxes (or "land and malt") were the only ones which he intended to propose at this early period of the session. The amount of Exchequer bills now outstanding was smaller than had been anticipated, not only by some gentlemen on the other side of the House, but even than that which was anticipated in a resolution proposed by an hon. friend of his (Mr. Charles Grant, jun.), who had assumed that on the 5th of January, 1818, the amount outstanding might be 60 millions.* It was in fact scarcely 57 millions and a half. At the same time, in 1817, the amount was 44,400,000 l.; so that there was an increase of a little more than 12 millions. This was all that was added to the debt, though there were variations in other branches of the unfunded debt, the accounts of which had not yet been made up. The reduction of the unfunded debt amounted to 19 millions of stock, which was equal, at the present prices, to 15 millions in money; so that instead of any addition being made to the debt in this year, on the total amount of funded and unfunded, there was a diminution of about three millions. He then moved, I. "That 24,000,000 l., be granted to his majesty, to pay off and discharge Exchequer bills made out by virtue of an Act of the 57th of his majesty, for raising 24,000,000 l., by Exchequer bills for the year 1817, outstanding and unprovided for. 2. That 9,000,000 l., be granted to pay off Exchequer bills made out by virtue of an act of the 57th of his majesty, for raising 9,000,000 l. by Exchequer bills, for the year 1817, outstanding and unprovided for. 3. That 6,000,000 l., be granted to pay off Exchequer bills made out by virtue of an act of the 56th of his majesty, for empowering the governor and company of the bank of England to advance 6,000,000 l. towards the supply for the service of the year 1816, outstanding and unprovided for."
Mr. Curwensaid, he should heartily rejoice if, when the accounts were laid before the House, the statement of the chancellor of the exchequer should not be found to be fallacious. From the best consideration he had been able to give the estimates, there had been a deficiency in
* See Vol. 36, p. 1282.
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Ireland of five millions (the receipts being six millions—the expenditure eleven millions), and in England of nine millions, making in all fourteen millions.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that comparing the actual state of the debt at the beginning of each year, the hon. gentleman, than whom no one was more competent to inquire into this subject, would see, when the accounts were presented, that there was a decrease in the debt of near three millions.
Mr. Tierneywished to know how the hon. gentleman, the colleague in office of the chancellor of the exchequer, was mistaken in the quantity of Exchequer bills which would be outstanding at the time of the new year. As to the assertion that 15 millions of the national debt had been reduced, it was impossible, as so much money had not been in the hands of the commissioners. He did not blame the chancellor of the exchequer for taking the first opportunity of sounding a kind of bugle, as to the prosperous state of the country, and before the accounts were presented there would be little possibility of contradicting him.
Mr. C. Grantjun. said, that he had stated in his Resolutions, that the utmost amount of Exchequer bills would be 60 millions: he had taken it as unfavourably as possible to the cause which he had argued, but he had guarded against the possibility of an inference that the sum must necessarily be so high.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he had given a short and necessarily superficial view of the state of the debt; but if he had not done so, no one would have been more ready to blame him than the right hon. gentleman. He admitted that a part of the services of last year were as yet unperformed, and that consequently so large an amount of Exchequer hills was not issued as the Treasury was enabled to issue. But he deemed it perfectly fair to take a comparison of the amount of the debt on the same day in each year.
Mr. Tierneyrequested to know what was the amount of out-standing Exchequer bills on account of the deficiencies of the revenue.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he did not know the exact amount; but it did not exceed a million.
The Resolutions were agreed to.

POOR LAWS.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
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rose to move for the renewal of the Select Committee on the Poor Laws. The committee, notwithstanding great assiduity, had been unable to get through its business in the course of the last session. He proposed to move the insertion of as many of the former names in the committee as circumstances would permit. Unfortunately, since that time the House had lost two of the members of that committee. Mr. Hall, the late member for Glamorgan had brought to the cossideration of the subject an enlightened mind, and great experience of the state of the distressed part of the country. He was cut off in the prime of life. Mr. Rose, too, had been taken from them. He had given a great degree of attention to the subject, and his loss would be severely felt by the House and the country. His mind was anxious to the last hour of life on those subjects to which he had applied himself—the commerce and finances of the country. Whatever difference of opinion there was as to the great measures which he had supported, no one could doubt the depth and capacity of his mind, and the activity and indefatigableness of his exertions. In the country where he lived his loss would be more severely felt. He was ready to promote every measure which was beneficial to his country and his bounty and liberality endeared him to all around him. The Saving Banks act, his last measure, would remain a lasting testimony—monumentum are perennius—to his sagacity and benevolence. The hon. gentleman then moved,"That a Select Committee be appointed to consider of the Poor Laws, and to report their observations thereupon to the House."
Mr. Curwensaid, he had no opposition to make to the motion. He agreed in opinion with the members of the committee, who thought that no partial measures would be of use. The House ought not to shrink from the odium which the enactment of the necessary measures would entail on them, as any measures must be Attended with suffering to individuals. All the expedients which had been adopted to mitigate the evils of the operation of the poor laws, had been ineffectual. Badging had first been resorted to in king William's time, and had a temporary effect. Poor-houses were then built, and the objection of the people to be confined in them also had its effect. But in the course of years the evil had
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gone on increasing, notwithstanding these expedients. The inadequacy of wages, and the practice of supplying the deficiency of them from the parish funds, destroyed the spirit of independence among the poor. Labourers in many instances had not. more than 9d or 10 d., a day. In Scotland it had been found, that in manufacturing towns compulsory relief was necessary; and he feared that some such system must always prevail in places were the manufactures had destroyed the morals of the people.
Sir F. Burdettsaid, he expected no benefit from the appointment of the committee. They would, he had no doubt, expend much labour, but it would be labour in vain. He could not exactly accord with what had been just said. There had been no great alteration in the character of the working people of England. There was not less industry, less energy, less desire of independence, than there formerly had been. The evil was, that people so disposed had no means of supporting themselves. There were not the funds to employ them with profit to the employers. That the wages of labour were low, was no subject of complaint against any class. No one gave less for labour than it was the interest of the labourer to receive. The employer knew whether the exertions of the labourer would repay him. The whole case had therefore been stated on unfair grounds. The people of England were the most energetic, the most unremittingly industrious people on the face of the earth, and the cause of the condition to which, notwithstanding these qualities, they were reduced, was obvious to his mind; and it was also obvious to his why many others did not wish to perceive it. It was the pressure of the enormous taxation on the country. If the poor laws had been the cause of the present condition of the people, how did it happen that at no former time had they produced the same effects, though they had existed for centuries? They had seen no such effects but within the few last years. He remembered, when he was a boy, before the late war, when he was playing with the labourers at his father's house, that the spirit of independence was universal; that it was a common boast with the English labourer, that neither he nor any of his family had ever asked relief from the parish. The general state of the people was now changed. The committee which was ap-

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pointed, with a view to a remedy, would be little disposed to look to the real remedy, economy; a word which at the beginning of this session, for the first time, had been never mentioned by the king's ministers—economy in the public expenditure. It was the weight on the industry of the country, to pay debts contracted in the prosecution of the war, which could not be borne, and the remedy was, to reduce all salaries and pensions which augmented this burthen unnecessarily—to reduce the wages of overpaid labour, or rather no labour, while the labour of the people was so wretchedly underpaid. Such a measure would have more effect in relieving the labouring classes than all the expedients which the committee could suggest. It was an immense taxation which dried up the resources of the country, and he was persuaded that it was of little consequence out of the pockets of what class the taxes were raised,—whether of the consumers, or of the richer classes, in the shape of income tax If it was taken out of the rich man's pocket, he was only the less able to employ the labourer. He should only prefer that tax which was least oppressive in the collection, that is to say, which returned the largest proportion to the public treasury of that which was taken out of the pockets of the contributors. It was indifferent to him whether it was on salt, or leather, or other articles, or on income. That tax was best which produced most with least expense, with one exception—the tax on stamps on law proceedings, which was detestable on this ground, that a man was made to pay by it for that which he paid all other taxes in order to be entitled to. It was for personal protection—in short, for safety and liberty, that every man paid taxes according to his means: and it was a wicked and a cruel proceeding in any government to endeavour to shut out many from the benefit of that protection, by creating this artificial and unequal expense. He hoped the delusion, as to the state of the country, would not last for ever. They were now told the country was in a mending condition, and as a proof of it, the wages of labourers were, as the hon. gentleman said, in some instances, nine-pence a day, and the families were supported out of parish funds. At such a time was it that economy had never once been mentioned by ministers. As for the relief afforded by the parish,
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those who knew what it was, knew also that men would use all possible exertions before they were compelled to depend upon it. With regard to the observation which he had often heard, that the poor-rates held out a great encouragement to idleness by the comforts which they afforded, and that many people were anxious to participate of those comforts, he firmly believed the observation was unfounded, and that the mass of the people contemplated it as one of the greatest calamities to be reduced to the necessity of having recourse to the poor-rates. The hon. baronet concluded with stating that he would not oppose the motion.
Lord Castlereaghexpressed his belief that whatever difference of opinion might exist as to the necessity which had called for such a quantity of public expense for some years back, or as to the degree of practical economy winch ought to be adopted, there could not be much difference as to the propriety of considering the best means of administering the poor-laws. He apprehended, therefore, that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Curwen) was mistaken in supposing that the country was indifferent about the inquiry which had already been instituted by the House upon this subject, and which it was proposed by the present motion to continue. On the contrary, he had reason to believe that great good had resulted from the report of the former committee (even if no legislative measure should follow), in consequence of the facts which it disclosed, and the information which it communicated to the country with regard to the administration of the sums collected under the poor laws. In that committee he had himself occasionally attended, and he never witnessed any such diverging of opinion as the hon. gentleman had stated; for instead of the 89 members of. that committee differing from each other, and-from the chairman, the fact was, that all the members completely concurred upon certain important radical points, and on these points, therefore, he would recommend that some legislative measure should at once be brought forward; for he was an advocate for the practical amendment and gradual amelioration of this system, being convinced that nothing like that subversion could be entertained by parliament which the hon. gentleman appeared to recommend; for the system of the poor laws was interwoven with the institutions of the country, and the repeal

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of such a system was not to be thought of. Reverting to the proposition before the House, the noble lord said, that he should vote for the committee, without any of those gloomy prospects as to its execution and effects, which the hon. baronet appeared to entertain.
Sir F. Burdettsaid, he had not disapproved of investigation, but had stated what he would restate, that no investigation or discussion would ever afford any relief, without such a reduction of the establishments of the government, and such a rigid economy in the expenditure, as would reduce the enormous taxation of the country to a scale compatible with the fair employment of the industrious population, and their full enjoyment of the fruits of their industry.
Mr. Caleraftsaid, he had not very sanguine expectations from the labours of the committee. The report, he would admit, had done some good, but no effectual relief could be expected without the powerful co-operation of government. Two points of great importance and considerable nicety would deserve the attention of the committee. The one was, whether personal and funded property should not be subjected to poor-rates as well as landed property. The other was, whether the petty sessions might not take consideration of many subjects at present devolved upon the quarter sessions.
The motion was agreed to, and a committee consisting of the following members appointed, viz. Mr. Sturges Bourne, Mr. Curwen, lord Castlereagh, Mr. Frankland Lewis, Mr. Bathurst, sir T. Baring, Mr. Brand, Mr. Huskisson, Mr. Wood, Mr. Morton Pitt, Mr. Legh Keck, Mr. Lockhart, Mr. Dickinson, lord Las-celles, Mr. Ashurst, sir James Shaw, lord W. Bentinck, Mr. Fitzhugh, lord Stanley, sir John Simeon, Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Thomas Courtenay, Mr. Robert Smith, Mr. Davies Gilbert, Mr. Holford, Mr. Cartwright, sir E. Brydges, sir T. Acland, Mr. Morritt, Mr. C. Dundas, Mr. H. Sumner, lord Cranborne, Mr. Littleton, Mr. Osborne, sir W. Rowley, Mr. C. Grant, jun., and Mr. Shaw Lefevre.