Sitting of 3 February 1818

FINANCE COMMITTEE APPOINTED.
The dropped order for the appointment of the Finance Committee being read,
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that in calling the attention of the House to this subject, he did not think it necessary to go over the same arguments which had been adduced when the committee was first constituted. The House would see the importance of losing no time in reviving that committee, as to which, he might say, that whatever difference there was respecting any particular measure which they might have recommended, there could be no difference as to its activity and fidelity. If some doubted whether the course of their investigations had been in the true spirit which parliament and the country expected from them, there could be but one opinion as to the extent of their inquiries, and the importance of the objects to which they had turned their attention. The committee had drawn up six extensive and laborious reports respecting the official establishments, the official reductions which were advisable, and the modifications which might be advantageous to the public service. Though the committee had not imagined that the House had devolved to it the consideration as to what precise establishments would be necessary in the great branches of the public service—the army, the navy, and the ordnance; yet they had exhibited so many and so important views on that subject, that when the House hereafter discussed those subjects, their decision would be much more easy. The committee also had made inquiries on the great subject of the general revenue and expenditure of the country, and how far they were likely to square and meet. Other objects still remained for the consideration of the committee, and he should therefore move that it be revived. He should not think it necessary to go into a detail of the measures

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which his majesty's ministers had adopted in consequence of that report, but it would be the duty of ministers, immediately on the re-appointment of that committee, to give a full account of what they had done, on its recommendation. It would be then shown that the earliest attention had been paid to their suggestions, and that all their recommendations of particular measures of economy had been followed, except in particular instances, in which they would lay all the grounds before them on which they had acted. When he had first proposed the formation of this committee he had observed, that a committee to inquire into so large a subject as the income and expenditure of the country after so long a war, would probably go on to a second, or perhaps a third year, before it would conclude its inquiries, as it could not till that time be known what the permanent income and expenditure was likely to be, and what sum might be expended, not only without running in debt, but with the establishment of a fund for the reduction of that debt. His hon. friend the member for Bramber had (he thought unfairly) taken up this admission, and concluded that, because the inquiries were to be so long continued, nothing was to be done in the mean time. It would be seen that this inference was erroneous, and that the country had received substantial relief in point of sound economy. He should not wander to a statement of all that had been done, but he should mention that a reduction had been made in the army, especially in the amount of our force in Ireland. He was happy to say, that when parliament on a late occasion had placed confidence in the tranquillity of that part of the empire, it had not been disappointed. No government had less reason to fear local difficulties than the government of that island; and during the late time of distress, the spirit of charity and benevolence that had prevailed, and the exertions of the higher for the benefit of the lower classes, had drawn closer the bond of social attachment between them. It was interesting to observe how that country had passed through the late time of distress, without the obligation of granting relief being imposed by law. When the estimates were laid before the House, the increase and decrease of expense, and the reasons for each, might easily at one view be pointed out. He should now move to re-appoint the committee of last
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year. He should propose the same names, as well on account of their respectability, as on account of the great addition to their experience.—The noble lord then moved, "That a select committee be appointed, to inquire into and state the income and expenditure of the united kingdom for the year ended the 5th of January 1818; and also to consider and state the probable income and expenditure, so far as the same can now be estimated, for the years ending the 5th of January l819and the 5th of January 1820 respectively, and to report the same, together with their observations thereupon, to the House; and also to consider what farther measures may be adopted for the relief of the country from any part of the said expenditure without detriment to the public interests."
The motion was agreed to, and the following members appointed; viz. lord Castlereagh, Mr. Bankes, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, lord Binning, Mr. Bootle Wilbraham, Mr. Peel, Mr. Hart Davis, sir George Clerk, Mr. Frankland Lewis, Mr. Huskisson, Mr. Tremayne, Mr. Nicolson Calvert, Mr. Davies Gilbert, Mr. Cartwright, Mr. Holford, Mr. Littleton, lord Clive, Mr. Gooch, sir Thomas Acland, Mr. Robert Smith, and Mr. Cal-craft.
Mr. Bankessaid, that aright hon. gentleman, of great knowledge in matters of finance, was placed on the committee of last year, but had retired on account of the ill state of his health. It was now happily restored; and he suggested that he should be placed on the committee.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that though he was somewhat recovered, he was still in too weak a state to attend to business in the morning and in the evening also. He begged, therefore, to be excused from serving on the committee.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that the manner in which the committee had proceeded was, to invite the attendance of any member of the House, who had peculiar information in any particular branch of public business. This was the case with the heads of official departments, and he did not think a better course could be pursued this session. He should be unwilling that any alteration should be made in the names on that committee, on account of their intimate acquaintance with the former part of the investigation; but the occasional assistance of any other member might be obtained.
Mr. Bankescould not see how the right

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hon. gentleman could be desired to give his attendance in that manner. If he did, he would only be an idle observer, as he would not have an effective voice.

MOTION FOR PAPERS RELATING T THE BANK OF ENGLAND.
Mr. Grenfellsaid, he should trouble the House with a few observations, in relation to the papers for which he was about to move. It would be absurd for him to affect any surprise at the communication of the chancellor of the exchequer, respecting the affairs of the Bank. Though he was unaware of the grounds which had been stated for continuing the restriction, he was aware that on some pretence or other such a communication would be made. He had long expressed a persuasion in that House, that such a course would be taken, when the ministers approached the time when they were to fulfil those promises and hopes, with which, for the last three years, they had entertained, might he not say deluded the House and the country. Those promises had been given not only by the chancellor of the exchequer, but by other members of his majesty's government, and particularly by the right hon. the surveyor of woods and forests. There were words, too, introduced into the bill, to impress more strongly on the country the confident expectation that, on the 5th of July next, the Bank would resume its payments in cash. These fair promises and protestations on the part of the government, were met by similar promises and protestations on the part of the Bank. The governors of that corporation declared, that they were not only able, but most anxious to discharge their solemn engagements to the public. If the directors were sincere, and he had no reason to believe that they were not, particularly one director, of great respectability, not in that House—Mr. Harman—the Bank, for its credit, was desirous of resuming its payments. That corporation would, he hoped, beg to be relieved from that situation in which it had been placed in the year 1797, which, whatever profit was derived from it, was a situation of disgrace. The situation of the Bank was anomalous. Nothing was to be found like it in the history of trade or commerce. What would have been rum to any other body, was the cause of their wealth. The stopping payments for one and twenty years, the failure of all their engagements to the public and their
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creditors, had been a source to them of power and prosperity. But they now said, the continuance of the restriction was not for their convenience, but a measure of state policy. The declaration to this effect had been made by the member for Taunton (Mr. Baring), who was now in France, pursuing those negotiations which were made the ground for the continuation of the restriction—a measure, which, while it enriched the Bank of England, impoverished the public, and sapped the means and solid resources of the country. Before this measure was again adopted, a committee should, at least, be appointed, as in 1797, to satisfy the public, not only as to the means of the Bank of England, which could not be doubted, but as to the principles on which it conducted its operations, and whether they could justify so immense a confidence as was to be reposed in them. The legislative acts by which the Bank had been protected during one and twenty years from payments in cash, were eight. Three had been brought forward in 1797; three during the administration of lord Sidmouth, about the time of the Peace of Amiens; and two by the present chancellor of the exchequer. The pretexts for them were, war, subsidies to foreign powers, foreign expenditure, the high price of bullion, the war of the French against our finances, or their great desire to get hold of our gold; but of all the pretences on which the restriction had been justified, there was none so futile, so flimsy, or so insulting to the understanding of the House and the public, as that which was now brought forward. Were they to be told, because France, or Austria, or Prussia wished to negociate loans—that, because two or three merchants in the city, Messrs. Rothschild for instance, wished to have negotiations with foreign powers, the House of Commons was to inflict an evil on the people of England? Besides, this restriction would give the facility to transactions which the chancellor of the exchequer deprecated. The fact was, that if the Bank resumed its payments in cash, not one shilling of British capital would go from the country. He agreed that trade should not be interfered with, and that the trade in money should be as free as any other trade in any other article. But was the article of money free while the Bank restriction lasted? If he had to make his choice between cash payments and foreign

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loans, he should prefer cash payments, and he should be willing to see all foreign loans prohibited, so long as the Bank did not resume its payments—and no longer. There was an argument as to the exchanges connected with this subject, much of a similar nature. It was said, that the state of the exchange was against us, and thus prevented the return to cash payments. The effect here had been mistaken for the cause. So long as there was a paper currency not convertible into cash, the exchange would be against us. The authors of the evil thus attempted, in that very evil, to find a reason for the acts which had produced it. He thought that a paper currency was a great benefit, but to secure this benefit, it should be founded on, and referable to, some standard definite, and to a great degree unchangeable. For this purpose, gold and silver formed the best, and perhaps the only standard which had been discovered by mankind, and the sooner they reverted to it the better; the longer they continued in the present course, the more difficult would be a return, and the greater would be the convulsion it would occasion. If this was an error, he shared it with all great political writers, from Locke to Adam Smith, the late lord Liverpool, and even the present ministers; for they always had acknowledged the principle, though they deviated from it in practice. He concluded by moving for various accounts of the Bank notes and post bills in circulation during the last year; of the balances of public money in the hands of the Bank; the price of bullion, and the rate of exchange; and of the allowances made to the Bank for business done for the public.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had no objection to the production of the papers. As to the remarks of the hon. gentleman, another opportunity would occur for discussing them, and he should not then trouble the House.
The motions were agreed to.

SECRET PAPERS PRESENTED.
Lord Castlereaghpresented, by command of the Prince Regent, a green bag, containing information respecting the internal state of the country; to be kept in the custody of the clerk of the House. The noble lord said, he should on Thursday move that they be referred to a committee.

INCOME TAX PAPERS.
Mr. Broughamwished to know, from the chancellor of
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the exchequer, whether the returns made under the income tax had been destroyed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, a circular had been sent to the different collectors to destroy all papers on the subject, except such as were necessary at the receivers-office to collect in and check the unpaid balances.
Mr. Broughamwished to know, whether answers had been given to this circular, and whether the command applied to copies as well as originals.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that answers he knew had been returned in some instances, probably in all. The circular applied to all papers—copies as well as originals.

MR. HONE'S CASE—INFORMATIONS Ex-OFFICIO.
Mr. William Smithsaid, that at present he did not conceive it necessary for him to go into a minute detail of the circumstances connected with the motion which he had announced. He should content himself with moving, that an account be laid before the House, of the sum received from Mr. Hone at the crown office for copies of the various informations filed against him, in order to form the grounds of proceedings which he intended hereafter to bring forward. He took that method of procuring the necessary information, as he thought it best adapted for bringing that information before them with the greatest degree of authenticity. At the same time he thought it proper to mention, that the case of Mr. Hone was rather the incidental occasion than the reason of the motion now proposed for their consideration. He had for more than twenty years been of the same opinion respecting the expediency of reform in this department; and he now took shame to himself that he had been so remiss in bringing it under discussion. Had the subject been repeatedly agitated, it was impossible but some amelioration should have taken place. As to Mr. Hone, he had never known any thing of him till the time of his trial, but he was ready to confess, that in considering the recent prosecutions instituted against him, he could not help admiring the intrepidity, sagacity, and skill, with which he had conducted his own defence. He had since had an opportunity of conversing with him in private, and he must declare that he discovered nothing that could tend to give him an unfavourable impression of his character, nothing unbecoming the man-

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ners of a gentleman. As for the parodies published by Mr. Hone, his opinion perfectly coincided with that of the public in general, that they were highly censurable; and it was not the least honourable part of Mr. Hone's conduct, that immediately on finding that such was the public impression respecting them, he used every means to prevent the circulation. But those parodies, however censurable, were not a fit subject to be animadverted on in a court of justice. It appeared to him that the free operation of public opinion was the only adequate and proper check to their popularity. He said he had little more to trouble them with on the subject, and disclaimed any intention of complaining of any party. He had the authority of Mr. Hone to state, that the conduct of the attorney-general towards him was that of a man of urbanity, politeness, and justice. If any blame could attach to the conduct of that gentleman, Mr. Hone conceived it was in not including the three informations in one: in every other respect he had shown himself a gentleman and a man of humanity. It was of the law itself, as it at present stood, that he had to complain. From the officers of the crown he had received every attention. Neither did he mean to reflect on the conduct of the learned lord on the bench, in refusing to furnish copies, as he found that, according to law, he could not have acted otherwise. It was in the law itself, therefore, that reformation was required, and the motion he was about to make had occurred to him as the proper parliamentary mode of bringing the subject under their notice. He should therefore move "That there be laid before this House, an account of the sum received at the Crown-office from Mr. Hone, for the copies of the informations filed against him by the attorney-general, with the authority on which the same was demanded, and the use to which the same was applied,"
The Attorney Generalsaid, he saw no reason for acceding to this motion, as it did not appear that any thing was done towards Mr. Hone, different from that towards other persons similarly circumstanced. This, indeed, the hon. mover had admitted, that nothing more was exacted by the crown office from Mr. Hone, than would have been demanded from any body else in the same situation, and that he (the attorney-general) wished to be distinctly understood; for as Mr. Hone
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had not suffered a different mode of treatment as to the fees of office, from that experienced by others in his condition, he saw no reason why his case should be made the particular ground of any general measure of regulation. Such a measure appeared to be the ulterior object of the hon. mover. But if such were the case, why not, instead of selecting any specific case, move rather for a general return of the fees received at the Crown-office for copies of informations filed by the attorney-general, with a statement of the authority upon which such fees were demanded, and the purpose to which they were applied? Such a motion would bring the whole question fairly forward, and it would then be for the wisdom of the Mouse to consider whether a practice sanctioned by immemorial usage required any alteration or amendment. It ought to be known that the master of the Crown-office, or the chief judge of the court of King's-bench, had no right to order that Mr. Hone, or any person in his situation, should have a copy of any information filed against him free of expense, because such expense was but the remuneration to which the clerks in the Crown-office were entitled for their trouble in drawing up such copy. If it appeared that the remuneration obtained from Mr. Hone had exceeded that required from any other individual, there would be some ground for this motion; but as such excess was not alleged, the motion struck him to be totally unnecessary for any parliamentary purpose. If it was the object of the hon. mover to ascertain the amount of fees received at the Crown-office, he could find a record upon the Journals explanatory of all fees exacted for copies of informations filed by the attorney general, as well as of indictments found by grand juries; for the expense for copies and subpoenas was the same upon both. The exaction of those fees had been a practice of very ancient date: he could not say how long the practice had existed before, but there was a distinct record upon the Journals stating the amount of those fees, in a return to the House in the year 1693, and the fees were still the same, with the addition only created by different stamp acts. Under these circumstances he repeated that the present motion was quite unnecessary, because the information which it professed to have in view might be had from the return which he had already mentioned. On these grounds he felt it

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his duty to oppose the motion. All the information for which it sought being already notorious, and apprehending that from the adoption of such a motion, it might be concluded out of doors, as he himself was indeed led to fancy from the hon. member's notice, that there was in the case of Mr. Hone something different from that to which all other persons were subjected against whom an information was filed, or an indictment found. As all the information which the hon. mover could desire with a view to any legislative measure upon the subject of those fees gene- rally was to be found in the Journals of the House, he could not see the necessity of pressing the motion, and would therefore move the previous question.
Sir Francis Burdettthought, that no objection whatever had been raised against the adoption of the motion by the learned gentleman who had just sat down. For the upshot of all the learned gentleman had said, was merely this, that all the information which the motion had in view, was quite notorious. But if notoriety were admitted as a valid reason against the adoption of motions, how few would be carried in that House. For that was generally notorious which it was the object of a motion to bring before the House in a regular and authentic shape. The production of information in this shape was, indeed, deemed generally necessary, to form what was called a parliamentary ground for subsequent proceedings. But the great grievance in the case now before them, was the absolute refusal of justice to the poor, by means of the enormous expense imposed on its administration. He should like to know of what avail the best political and legal institutions could be, if they were thus rendered inaccessible. The great grievance therefore was, that the insatiable thirst of taxation had made the administration of justice a cruel insult and mockery to the people. The hon. mover proposed to bring forward some legislative remedy for this grievance. The reason on which he wished to found this measure was no reason, according to the attorney-general, because it was perfectly notorious to the whole world! The grievance was indeed notorious; the greater the notoriety of this oppressive system, the more peremptorily was its reformation called for, at the hands of the representatives of the people.
Mr. W. Smithobserved, that if the mo-
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tion which he had proposed were even negatived, that would not serve to defeat the ulterior object which he had in view. His hon. and learned friend (for so he must always call him) had stated, that the motion was irregular, because it referred to a particular case, and that he should rather have brought forward an abstract motion with respect to the fees of the Crown office generally. But to this remark he should make a clear, short, and specific answer. He had particularly referred to the case of Mr. Hone, because that case afforded peculiar reason for the course which he meant to pursue—because that case presented the strongest illustration of the intolerable injustice of the practice which prevailed at the crown-office; for Mr. Hone had told him that he could not obtain copies of the three informations filed against him, without paying fees amounting to nine pounds, which, from the state of his circumstances, he could with difficulty afford to pay. In order to raise this sum, he was obliged to sell some articles of his property considerably under their real value. Many persons who heard him, would no doubt deem nine pounds a very small sum, especially contrasted with a man's safety, a desire of preparing his defence against a charge likely to subject him to long imprisonment; but this sum was considerable to a man in Mr. Hone's situation, with a large family, with a wife and several children to provide for, and with many debts to discharge. It was, therefore, a great aggravation of the treatment which Mr. Hone suffered, that he should have been compelled to submit to such an exaction. Mr. Hone was obliged to sell various articles of his little property, under their prime cost, in order to meet this demand, because the independence of his mind would not allow him to apply for the assistance of friends, while, from the nature of his situation, it was necessary for him promptly to examine the grounds of the accusation against him, in order to prepare for his defence. If the general motion alluded to by the attorney-general were adopted, the return to such a motion would not state the sums paid by Mr. Hone, and he wished to have something distinct and specific before the House-But if the hon. and learned gentleman would move for a return of the fees usually received at the Crown office, stating how much was paid by Mr. Hone, he would not object to such a substitute for

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his motion. But unless such a substitute were proposed, he could not see the propriety of abandoning the motion, by which he merely wished to have information laid before the House in an authentic parliamentary form, upon which he proposed to rest ulterior proceedings. But whether this information, which the attorney-general alleged to be notorious, were laid before the House or not, he should feel it his duty to persist in his ultimate object for the removal of what appeared to him a most iniquitous system of exaction. Such being his resolution, he was indifferent to the fate of the motion, unless with a view to comply with the forms, and to satisfy the judgment of the House.
Lord Castlereaghfelt himself bound to give his negative to the motion, because its professed object was different from the real one. The professed object was to lay a foundation for some legislative remedy as to fees paid in the Crown office. This object would be effected by a general motion on the subject. The information thus obtained would, by the rule-of-three, at once show the charges in any particular case! But the real object was to give the public an exaggerated view of the question, by connecting it with Mr. Hone. The trial of Mr. Hone having now taken place, and the attorney-general having confessedly displayed all the qualities which belonged to him in the discharge of his duty, he would say nothing now on the subject; but he must give his negative to the motion for the reason which he had assigned.
Mr. Broughamdefended the mode adopted by the hon. mover. His object was merely to obtain a foundation for a legislative proceeding. He said, in. effect, "give me certain documents, and I will show you the foundation of such a measure." "No," said the noble lord, "but we will tell you how much is charged per sheet." After such information should be laid before them, they would remain quite ignorant of the sum paid by each individual. The knowledge of this could not be obtained but by such a motion as was stated by his hon. friend. Let the amount paid in the case of Mr. Hone be given, and, if they chose, in the case of five or six others, in order to avoid attaching the question to any particular case, and they would then have a proper foundation for further proceedings.
Mr. Bathurstsaid, that according to
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his understanding any person against whom a criminal information was filed might, if he did not think proper to purchase a copy, consult such information at his leisure. Where, then, was the grievance? for if the accused could not, or would not pay the clerks at the Crown office for the trouble of copying the information against him, he was at liberty to read that information at the Crown office whenever he thought proper. He did not wish to express any opinion upon the trials alluded to. He could not, however, forbear from noticing the observation now so very general, that although the publications which gave rise to those trials were objectionable, they ought not to have been made the subject of prosecution, but that the cessation of such publications ought to have been left to the moderation and subsequent reflection of the individuals with whom they originated. Upon this observation he would state no opinion, but leave it to the judgment of the House and the country. But as to the professed object of the hon. mover, why, he would ask, should the hon. member direct his views solely to the expense upon criminal proceedings? Was not the hon. member aware of the expense of bills in chancery and upon civil actions? Then why confine himself to a special case, but too likely to create a particular impression? The hon. mover had stated, that Mr. Hone's circumstances were so limited that he could not conveniently raise the sum of nine pounds, because his independent mind would not allow him to avail himself of the assistance of friends. But he apprehended the hon. mover had not. asked Mr. Hone, what was his profit from the publications for which he was brought to trial, and which were known to have been very extensively circulated. As to the information which the hon. mover professed to seek, on the subject of fees, he might obtain it with ease from the recent reports of the commissioners for inquiring into the fees of courts of justice. If, however, it was desired for any general purpose of legislation to obtain precise information for any given period, including ten or twelve cases,' the motion might be so worded, but he saw no reason for acceding to a motion which implied a particular predilection for the case of Mr. Hone.
Lord Folkestonedeclared, that he could not hear, without surmrise, the objections

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which had been made to this motion on the other side of the House. For what was more reasonable in any hon. member proposing to amend an existing law, than to point out a particular grievance arising out of that law, and to move that the proof of that grievance should be laid before the House in a regular and authentic form? Yet such was the course of proceeding objected to by those very gentlemen, who, when any remedial measure was proposed, uniformly flung in the teeth of the proposer a challenge to show a particular grievance. On this occasion, however, these gentlemen felt it expedient to alter their course. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down, that it would be better to move for the production of several cases, than to confine the motion to one particular case, because, by adopting the right hon. gentleman's motion, the House would obtain more information. But as to the statement of the right hon. gentleman, that any person against whom a criminal information was filed, might, if he could not or would not purchase a copy of such information, go to the Crown-office and read it there at his leisure; it was to be recollected, that Mr. Hone was, at the time referred to, a prisoner in the King's-bench; for by a modern statute, of which sir Vicary Gibbs was the parent, any one against whom a criminal information was filed, might be committed to prison, if he did not find bail, or did not think proper to give bail, or had it not in his power to procure bail to satisfy the crown solicitor. Yet the House was told, that any one against whom a criminal information was filed, was at liberty to read that information at the Crown-office. But how was a man in gaol to avail himself of that privilege? and such was the condition of Mr. Hone. So much, then, for the statement of the right hon. gentleman, which he appeared to think quite a triumphant answer to the complaint of Mr. Hone. How, he would ask, was a man of humble means in such a situation to procure a copy of the information against him, the close examination of which must be so necessary to the preparation of his defence. The case referred to by the hon. mover was obviously one which called for legislative regulation.
The motions were, with the leave of the House, withdrawn, and Mr. Smith gave notice, that he would to-morrow submit to the House another motion, on
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the general question of filing criminal informations.

SCOTCH LUNATIC ASYLUM BILL.
Lord Binning Lord Binning moved for leave to bring in a bill for erecting District Asylums in Scotland, for the care and confinement of Lunatics. The noble lord expressed his wish to have the bill printed, and that any farther proceeding upon it should stand over until after Easter, in order that the people of Scotland might have a full opportunity of considering its merits.
Lord A. Hamiltonsaid, that two-thirds of the people of Scotland had disapproved of the noble lord's former bill on this subject. He was connected with a part of the country where a lunatic asylum was lately erected, which he considered a model for such buildings. He hoped this bill would be subjected to the same examination in Scotland as the former bill.
General Fergussonexpressed his disinclination to oppose the introduction of the bill, but reserved the declaration of his opinion upon its merits for a future stage.
Lord Binningadmitted that objections to the former bill were very generally entertained in Scotland. His object in delaying any proceedings as to the bill till after Easter, was in order to give the people of Scotland time to examine it, and to consider the very material changes he had made in the measure. The great objection formerly was, to the appointment of general commissioners, to carry the measure into effect. Now county commissioners were substituted, excepting two commissioners to be appointed) by the secretary of state, for the purpose of seeing that the objects of the act should be generally effected.
Mr. Wynnapproved of the object of the bill, and took that occasion of expressing his regret and surprise, that notwithstanding the horrible scenes described to that House in a report from a special committee three years ago, no legislative measure had as yet been passed, to provide against the continuance or repetition of such cruelties. Unfortunately the right hon. gentleman who was so active in his inquiries upon this subject (Mr. Rose), was now no more; but the subject ought to be taken up by some other member, and if no one else more competent should undertake the task, he himself should feel it his duty to propose a bill upon this important subject. [Hear, hear!]
Lord Binningstated, the new bill

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would substitute county assessments in aid of these asylums, in preference to parochial assessments, which resembled too nearly our poor-rates, in the conception of persons in that part of the kingdom.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

PETITION RESPECTING THE STATE OF THE CIVIL POLICE OF IRELAND.
Sir H. Parnellrose to present a petition to the House from the high sheriff and grand jury of the Queen's county, which, he could venture to say, spoke the sentiments of all the magistracy of Ireland upon the subject to which it relates. The petitioners complained of the inadequacy of the civil power, as provided by the statutes, to enable the magistrates to administer, with any effect, the criminal law; and stated, that crimes were constantly committed with impunity, and that it was necessary to have constant recourse to military assistance in very trivial cases. He could, from his own knowledge, state several instances in which the interference of the military had been attended with fatal effects. In one case, where the offence was only an assault, the person against whom the warrant was granted, was shot, while attempting to escape after having been taken; in another, several lives were lost by soldiers being called in to prevent an expected battle between two parties of the lower orders. While the last assizes were going on in Mary borough, a corporal and six men were sent to arrest a man who had been concerned in stopping carriages loaded with provisions. He had heard two judges from the bench justify the magistrates for calling out the military when the general peace of the country was in no ways disturbed, on the ground of the defective state of the civil power. Though the office of constable existed in Ireland, it was not in any respect similar to the office as it existed in this country. Here the magistrates could enforce the laws by the aid of the constables; in Ireland they were so inefficient, that the magistrates were constantly obliged to assist in person in the execution of their own warrants. If a magistrate gave a constable a warrant, in nine cases out of ten it was not executed, and the guilty escaped punishment. So little confidence was placed in the power of the magistrate to secure redress, that it was a common practice to suffer offences against the law to pass over without any attempt to
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punish those who were guilty of them. What the petitioners prayed for was, a revision of the laws relating to the civil police of the country, with a view of obtaining such an arrangement of it as would afford the magistrates, who were willing to exert themselves in the preservation of the public peace, and the prevention of crime, a proper opportunity of exercising their authority. It was not necessary, in order to do so, to establish any severe or unconsitutional system of police, but merely to regulate the office of constable in such a manner, that it should become an efficient instrument in the hands of the magistrates for the administration of the laws.
Mr. Peelobserved, that there was no period in which less recourse was had to the military power than during the last two or three years. The civil power in Ireland was regulated partly by the executive government and partly by the grand juries; the former superintended it in cases of disturbance where strong measures were required, the latter where the ordinary office of constable was deemed sufficient. The grand juries were empowered to remove constables for negligence or misconduct, and to appropriate salaries to the amount of 20 l. a year to each individual. The only limit to their authority with respect to these situations was, that they could not increase the number, which was limited in each barony; but he thought that even with this limitation, they possessed ample means to provide effectually for the preservation of the peace.
Sir H. Parnellsaid, that so far from the grand juries, having the power of reforming the office of constable, the whole complaint of the petitioners consisted in their not possessing any means of rendering the office efficient. This was not a matter concerning which any doubt could exist. Every magistrate and grand juror would be ready to agree with the opinions of the petitioners. Neither they, nor had he, found fault with the government in being too ready to make use of the military. The present government, he was aware, had taken considerable pains to place the matter under proper regulations. He had hoped that the right hon. gentleman would himself have been ready to bring forward some measure to meet the wishes of the petitioners; but as he had not done so, he would now give notice, that soon after the Easter

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recess, he would move for a committee to inquire into the state of the civil police of Ireland.
Mr. Vesey Fitzgeraldbore testimony to the infrequency of military interference in ordinary police cases in Ireland. Much praise was due to the government of that country for harmonising the dispositions of all classes, and abating every thing of an unconstitutional interference of the military. Considerable satisfaction had been given to the people at large, on finding the lord lieutenant had been empowered to take out of the consolidated fund, such sumsas should be necessary to maintain the public tranquillity, and preserve individuals from experiencing those acts of violence and aggression which had too long been a stain to the pages of Irish history.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

IRISH GRAND JURIES ACT SUSPENSION BILL.
On the order of the day for the third reading of this bill,
Sir F. Floodsaid:—The bill which the right hon. gentleman now finds it necessary to suspend is a very extraordinary one; and I attribute this extraordinary character in part to the late period of the session, and the hurry in which it was carried through the House. The right hon. gentleman promises a new bill to supply the loss of the present. I wish the right hon. gentleman had left us in quiet possession of the former act—that act was framed by sage and experienced heads—by the Irish parliament. I hope the outlines of the intended bill will be laid before parliament previous to the Easter recess, in order that the grand Juries of Ireland may understand them, and construct the next presentments accordingly I am glad that the late bill is to be given up: its tendency was to introduce into every county a set of men total Strangers to it, at salaries from 500 l. to! 600 l. a year. What ever had been said of jobbing before, jobbing would surely I be the system under it. Grand juries were far better judges of what concerned the interests of their own counties than itinerant surveyors could be. That man is undeserving of the character of an Irishman who could assert, that hitherto presentments had been founded on perjury and fraud, and that grand juries paid more regard to the advantages that might be derived from the money raised than the
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wants of those who paid it. I am sorry to hear such imputations thrown out against my countrymen; and will maintain, that they are as averse from fraud and perjury as any men. The money raised on account of presentments affords employment to numbers of poor people, and is not drained away into distant or foreign channels.
Mr. V. Fitzgeraldsaid, that he did not think it necessary to discuss the merits of a bill not yet brought under the notice of the House. The hon. baronet had expressed his sorrow for imputations thrown out against Irish grand juries; but he must tell the hon. baronet that he never had heard any such imputations till he heard them from himself. It had been merely declared in general, that perjury and fraud did exist.
Sir H. Parnellsaid, there appeared to be a misunderstanding on the part of the hon. baronet. Perjury and fraud had by none been imputed to grand juries; such things had been only said to prevail, without specifying, in what quarter. It was undeniable, that grand juries were composed of men as pure, as upright, as any in society; but it was also a fact, that under them frauds had been practised, and to prevent the continuance of those frauds, it was necessary to give a more extensive control over those intrusted with the expenditure.
The bill was read the third time.

BANK RESTRICTION.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, he would trouble their lordships with some motions connected with a question of the greatest moment. The time was fast approaching when the subject of the resumption of cash-payments by the Bank must come before their lordships. He trusted that parliament would not consent to continue the restriction without a full inquiry into the circumstances of the case, which done could enable them to come to a right decision on the whole of this question, upon which more than upon any other the welfare of the country depended. He concluded by moving for accounts of the weekly amount
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of bank notes in circulation in the years 1815, 16, and 17; the average amount, the highest and lowest amount in each year, distinguishing the notes of different sums, the rates of exchange, the number of licenses granted for the issue of notes, & c.; all of which were ordered.
Lord Kingsaid, he felt himself called upon to advert to the subject of the Bank, in consequence of having heard, with the greatest regret, from official authority in another place, that doubts existed whether payments in cash could be resumed at the bank at the period pointed out for that purpose. The reason assigned for this apprehended delay was so extraordinary in itself, and so unintelligible to the country, it being impossible to conceive how in reality the negotiation of foreign loans could tend to prevent the resumption of cash payments by the bank of England, that it could only be considered as the ostensible reason, and not the real one. He could not but consider this postponement as a measure the most detrimental to the interests of the country. Without a metallic currency there could be no certainty, no stability in any contracts or dealings, and speculation was let loose upon the country in all its most injurious forms. What would be said if the minister of France were to tell the legislative body of that country that the bank of France could not pay in cash, because there was a loan negotiating there for England or any other country Would not such an assertion be laughed at as a mere subterfuge? and was it to be expected that such an assertion here would not be considered in precisely a similar light? If, indeed, the negotiating of loans here for foreign countries was to be a cause of preventing the bank of England from paying in cash, then he could conceive no time in which that return to a healthy circulation could take place. This was most alarming to the country, nor could he conceive any line of conduct more calculated to produce the most serious injury. Were they to understand, that the government was unable to pay its debts to the bank, and that thus the latter were unable to pay in specie? He deprecated such a system as the most impolitic that could possibly be acted upon, convinced, as he was, that there could be no security whatever but in the return to the sound and healthy circulation of a metallic currency.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that he

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should not enter into any discussion of the topics on which the noble lord had touched. They were, it was true, questions which had given rise to much difference of opinion in that House and elsewhere, and he was also aware, that there still existed great difference of sentiment as to the policy of the financial measures pursued in the course of the last war. He was not, however, called upon to vindicate that policy at present. With regard to the particular measure to which the noble lord's inquiry was directed, he had uniformly held, and still did hold, that it was the interest of this country and of the bank that cash-payments should be resumed as speedily as possible. In stating that he always felt the force of this principle, he must also remark that he was equally convinced that the particular moment when the bank ought to resume the regular course of payment was a consideration of the greatest delicacy and importance. Whatever might have been stated during the war as to the resumption of cash-payments on the return of peace, still the question as to the precise period for the adoption of that measure was always understood to be left to the decision of parliament, on a full consideration of the circumstances which might exist at the time. Having said thus much he should only add, that he had ground for believing, and indeed knowing that the bank had made every necessary preparation for answering the demands which might arise by the expiration of the restriction bill, and he saw nothing in the domestic situation of the country, or in our foreign relations, that was calculated to produce any undue delay in the resumption of cash-payments. It was possible, however, that there might be circumstances in existing pecuniary arrangements of foreign powers which would render it adviseable for parliament to consider whether the act ought not to remain in force, as long those circumstances, which were not likely to recur again, continued to operate. If any supposition was entertained of the delay being occasioned by financial transactions between the government and the bank, he could assure their lordships it was perfectly groundless.
Lord Kingsaid, that he did not impute the continuance of the restriction to any improper understanding between the government and the Bank. He merely meant, that if the Bank were limited in
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their issues of paper, they could not afford such extensive accommodation to the government as they are at present enabled to do in the taking of exchequer bills.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, he should consider himself wanting in duty, were he to allow what had fallen from the noble secretary of state to pass unnoticed. The noble secretary had stated, that the particular period for the resumption of cash-payments was a question of expediency, which required great consideration. Now, only two years ago, the noble secretary had treated with great derision all those who ventured to doubt that the Bank would pay in cash within two years from that time. For his part, he had never expected that the Bank would pay in cash at the period promised, nor could such an expectation be entertained by any one who fairly considered the nature of the connexion between the Bank and the government. The noble secretary had declared, that notwithstanding the intended delay, there was nothing in the situation of the country to prevent the restriction act from being allowed to expire, and that the Bank was perfectly prepared to pay its notes in cash at the time fixed by the act of parliament. He knew not on what information the noble earl had found-ed his opinion as to this ability of the Bank. He derived it, perhaps; from some of the directors, but there might be different opinions among them. But though the Bank had made ample preparation, the noble secretary hinted, that still there might be something in the relations subsisting among foreign powers, which ought to retard the resumption of cash-payments; but what that something was, he had not chosen to explain. From what he had said, however, this much appeared—that this most important of all measures to the welfare and prosperity of the country, no longer depended upon the decision of the British parliament on what might be done by the government of France, or of any other foreign country. The noble lord stated, such a circumstance was not likely to recur; but what security could be found for this assurance? Could the noble lord pledge himself that the governments of Russia or Prussia might not choose to negotiate a loan, as soon as the effect of the one now making for France might cease to operate? Would not a loan for any of these powers be as good a reason for postponing the day of paying in cash, as that now nego-

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tiating for France? Let the case be reversed, and suppose a French minister were to say, to any assembly in that country, that the Bank of France could not be allowed to pay, because a small Joan was negotiating by this country, would he not be laughed at for giving such a reason? In fact, the cause of delay assigned by the noble earl was of so extraordinary a nature, that it called for the most serious consideration their lordships could give it. A full and complete investigation was necessary. The proper course would be to examine the Bank directors; and indeed he thought that nothing short of an inquiry of that kind could satisfy parliament and the country. If the noble earl and his colleagues persisted in their present course, without any efficient investigation, they would expose themselves to a more serious responsibility than any ministers had ever ventured to encounter; for they now placed the country in this situation—that the resumption of cash-payments was no longer to depend on the wisdom of parliament, but on measures which any continental despot or foreign assembly might choose to adopt. Nothing could be more alarming to the monied interest, the landed interest, and indeed to all classes in the country, than such a state of things as this presented.
The motions were agreed to.

SECRET COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OF THE COUNTRY.
Lord Sidmouth Lord Sidmouth moved, that the Papers which, by order of the Prince Regent, he had yesterday laid on the table, should be referred to a secret committee, to be chosen by ballot.
The Marquis of Lansdownesaid, that when he considered what had been the nature of the early proceedings on the subject to which the papers proposed to be referred to a committee related, he thought it necessary to call the attention of the House to the course now proposed to be adopted by the noble secretary of state. As the papers were unaccompanied by a message from the House, he thought their lordships were entitled to some explanation from the noble viscount, of the reasons on which his conduct was founded. The papers laid on the table must have one of two objects: either it is meant to found on them some prospective measures, which however he hoped would not be the case; or else it is intended to make them serve to the House and to the country as a justification of the past. If
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either of these objects were in view, or both of them, it was equally important that their lordships should have the opportunity, not only of examining witnesses, but of investigating every circumstance connected with them, which might be necessary to elicit the truth. The mode of selecting the individuals to whom the papers were to be submitted, was therefore a question of great importance: for it was most essential, with a view to any measure that might be adopted, that the investigation should be full and complete. That was the only inquiry which could be satisfactory either to the House or the country. It was, therefore, an important question for their lordships, whether, in choosing a committee, it ought not to be one so constituted as to ensure a full investigation of all the parts of the subject submitted to their consideration, and thereby to lay a foundation for measures which could not fail to be satisfactory. For this reason he submitted to the noble viscount, whether he ought not to state to the House the reasons which had induced him to propose the course of, secret investigation which his motion implied.
Lord Sidmouthreferred to the proceedings in the appointment of the two former committees of secrecy, on which occasions no measure was previously suggested, but it was left to the committees to recommend whatever measures they thought necessary, from the nature of the information laid before them. The same course was intended to be pursued with regard to the present committee. With respect to the precedents, there were several of communications of this nature being made, without the intervention of messages from the Crown; one, for instance, in 1801. He had no hesitation, however, in stating, that the object with regard to the present measure was, to lay before the committee documents with respect to the state of the country since the report of the last committee of secrecy, and also repecting the mode in which the powers entrusted to the crown had been exercised. It would be for the committee, on the investigation of the evidence before them, to say whether any, and what measure was necessary. With regard to the powers given to the committee, it should be recollected, that the practice differed in that House from that of the House of Commons. It was not the practice of their lordships' House to

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impower any committee to send for persons, papers, and records. But the committee might suggest any evidence that they might consider necessary, and apply to the House upon the subject, when cither witnesses might be sworn at the bar to attend to give evidence before the committee, or the House might order papers to be produced for the information of the committee. He could not anticipate any objection to the appointment of a committee for the consideration of the papers communicated from the crown. It would be for the House, upon the report, to determine whether any and what course should be adopted in pursuance of that report.
The Earl of Carnarvonsaid, that after the House had been told from the throne, that the country was in a state of perfect tranquillity, they could not be acting on the spur of any necessity, or feel the influence of alarm; there was, therefore, full time for deliberation. But if it was to be the province of the future committee to inquire how ministers had exercised the high discretionary powers that had been vested in them, the House must not delude itself or the country, by consenting to go into that inquiry upon such information as should be furnished by ministers themselves: the committee should have power to call for other evidence, and examine other facts. He would not then go into much allusion on the two reports of last session, but he intreated their lordships to compare those reports with the judicial proceedings that had followed upon them, and then to see whether they would still be so enamoured of secret committees, as to be satisfied, from similar documents to produce a similar report. He entreated them to consider, whether such a report, grounded on such evidence, would not be a solemn mockery, from which no benefit could result to the country. The noble lord had referred to the precedent of 1801. That precedent led to a bill of indemnity for all the acts of power exercised by ministers: but after all we had seen and heard, after all ministers had pledged themselves to prove, and the number of verdicts they had subsequently recovered; after it had been repeatedly stated that there was but too great reason to believe that the servants of government had themselves excited the disturbances that had occurred, before they passed such a bill they ought to be well satisfied, whether all the acts of insurrection proved
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(and there were none proved but at Derby), were not attributable to the very agents employed by ministers. If their lordships should be content, on a secret inquiry, completely to indemnify ministers for all that had passed, and by that means preclude all those who had been injured in fortune, health, and character, who had languished in dungeons, or groaned beneath the weight of fetters, from any hope of retrieving their losses, or establishing their character—if their lordships should be satisfied to give such an indemnity as should exclude these victims of power from all redress of their wrongs—if their lordships should act thus, they would not do their duty to themselves or to their country. He must enter his caveat against instituting an inquiry into the conduct of ministers, upon any mere showing of their own, and thus making them at once their own accusers, witnesses, and judges.
The Earl of Liverpoolcontended, that the simple question for the consideration of the House was, whether they would appoint a committee to examine the information laid before them, and follow the invariable usage on such occasions? He was aware that, in some instances, proceedings of this nature had originated in a message from the crown, and at other times not. But in all cases where the crown had made a communication on the state of affairs, whether foreign or domestic, whenever that communication had been secret, it was usual to institute a secret committee to enter into the inquiry. The proceedings of that House were of a nature peculiar to itself, and the course pursued in them applied to all cases of proceedings on inquiries. Even where those proceedings were public, no power was delegated to committees of that House to call for persons, papers, or records, but they were compelled to come to the House, and through their chairman to name the persons and papers they required, and then move for their production. This was the rule and invariable practice of the House. Under these circumstances, he did not think the House could have any doubt as to the course it ought to pursue. That was not the time to discuss the merits of the two reports, or the measures that had arisen out of them, or the nature of the report that the present committee should make, or whether any or what measures should follow it. He should only say, that if the noble

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lord opposite thought him ready to admit, from the result of the trials that had taken place, that any facts in those reports had been contradicted, he was so far from making such admission, that he thought the result of the trials strongly confirmed all that had been laid before the committee. Not only had 50 true bills for treason been found by the grand jury, but 36 individuals had been convicted, or had admitted their guilt. He would not now discuss any farther the reports of last year, but those reports had been, in that House at least, the result of unanimous opinion on the part of the committee; and, in the other House, the committee was also unanimous on the report, though there was a difference of opinion as to the measures that ought to be pursued in consequence. Their lordships had now laid before them important information on the state of the country since the period of the last report up to the present time; and the question was, whether the House would refer that information to a committee in the ordinary course? It would be open to that committee to determine how it should act on that information; it would be open to the House, whether it should act on the representation of the committee; and it would then be for them to consider, whether any other measures ought to be pursued?
The Marquis of Lansdownesaid, he had not opposed referring the papers to a committee of secrecy, oh the contrary, he thought that was the most advisable course to be pursued. What he contended for was, that a large and extensive inquiry was necessary; and whether it was to be effected by creating a precedent, and giving the committee powers to send for persons, papers, and records, or whether they were to apply to the House to order the attendance of such witnesses or the production of such papers as they thought necessary, was immaterial. He was certain of this, that if the inquiry was to be confined to the papers furnished by ministers, the result would not, he should hope, be satisfactory to that House; he was certain it would not be satisfactory to the country.
The Earl of Carnarvonobserved, that he had not stated that the reports of the committee of secrecy had been falsified, but that they had not been borne out by the subsequent judicial proceedings. As to the bill of indictment found by the grand jury at Derby, they had found it
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upon ex parte evidence; so the secret committees of last session had made their report upon ex parte evidence; and upon ex parte evidence ministers might get what report they pleased, as by making their own case they of course could obtain whatever report they pleased, if no other evidence was allowed to be brought forward.
The motion was then agreed to.