Sitting of 17 March 1817

LONDON PETITION RESPECTING LOTTERIES.
The Sheriffs of Londonpresented at the bar, a petition from the Lord Mayor, Alderman, and Commons of the City of London, setting forth, "That the petitioners have, with great pain, long witnessed the ill effects of lotteries, in destroying industrious habits, in estranging men from their families, and in corrupting their morals; and that, in these days of general distress, when the profits of trade are reduced beyond all former example, when so many individuals of the labouring classes are thrown out of work, and the poor-rates have augmented to a degree almost insupportable, it appears to the petitioners to be peculiarly impolitic to encourage gambling among the poor; that, although the institution of saving banks maybe of considerable benefit, and promises to be be of much greater, in giving an incentive to honest industry, and habits of frugality and sobriety, the petitioners are at a loss to account for the conduct of his majesty's ministers, who, on the one

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hand, patronise such institutions, and bring in bills for their regulation, and on the other counteract their good effect by occasioning gaming houses to be set up all over the kingdom, and provoking the people to a spirit of gambling, by every possible artifice; and that even legal speculations in the lottery appear to the petitioners to be the direct cause of much vice and misery, but that there is besides much illegal dealing in insurances, which the petitioners are convinced no laws can ever entirely suppress; and that the present very severe laws against such illegal insurances are extremely liable to abuse, and in fact, are notoriously abused; that they give rise to infinite fraud and perjury, and can only be enforced by the instrumentality of the most profligate informers; and praying the House not to sanction, by their votes, any state lottery in future, under any circumstance whatever."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to which the Ordnance Estimates were referred,
Mr. R. Wardsaid, it was his intention to move a vote on account, as had been done, with regard to the army and navy estimates; and that no farther supply should be granted at present for the service of the ordnance department, than for the six months ending on the 30th June, 1817. He trusted that the accounts were not likely to give rise to much altercation: and he deemed it right to state to the House what had been the extent of the different reductions in this branch of the public expenditure. The charge for the ordinary service was this year 538,175 l., which was less than the former estimate by the sum of 135,000 l. The extraordinaries amounted to 211,784 l., leaving a reduction under this head of expense of 104,000 l. The aggregate charge was 749,959 l. Credit had been taken for 53,000 l., from the sale of horses and old stores. Here the hon. gentleman entered upon a statement of the reductions in Ireland. The total amount of the whole expense for the year, for Great Britain and Ireland, would be, in round numbers, 942,000 l. In time of full war, the number of men employed was 31,600. In 1815, this number was reduced to the extent of 3,800 men; in 1816, to that of 15,000 more; and the present establishment consisted only of 9,300 l. He should content himself at present with moving,
§
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"That a sum not exceeding 248,000 l., be granted to his majesty for the charge of the office of ordnance for land service, from the 1st of January to the 30th of June 1817."
Mr. Bennetconsidered, that it would be more advantageous to postpone the general discussion upon this subject till the whole of the estimates should be before the House. He rose chiefly for the purpose of expressing the surprise with which he had read an advertisement purporting to issue from the ordnance board, addressed to map-sellers, and forbidding them to make any use or publish any copies of the trigonometrical surveys of the country, which had been taken at the public expense, under the immediate direction of the ordnance board. This appeared to him to be acting in the spirit of a pedlering trader, rather than of a public department. Many could not afford to purchase the original chart, and by this prohibition, the general object of utility would be defeated. It was not upon this principle that foreign governments acted. In Paris any one might go to the map-board, and see not only those which were, but those which were not published.
Mr. R. Wardsaid, it was intended that the sale of the maps should defray their expense, and that was the reason why the property in them had been so carefully guarded. He was surprised that the hon. gentleman, who was so zealous for economy in every branch of the public expenditure, should object to a proceeding which would prevent the necessity of recurring to the usual annual grant of 10,000 l., for carrying on that undertaking.
Sir M. W. Ridleywas glad, however late, to see ministers taking credit for economy; but he observed, that the first article in these estimates was the sum of 43,793 l. to the master-general, principal officers, and others in this department. This was an increase to the heads of the department amounting to 10,000 l. above the sum voted when the estimates were between three and four millions, although they were now less than one million. It was to a reduction of such salaries that the public looked for effectual retrenchment, and not to savings made by the sacrifice, of works of national importance and utility.
Mr. R. Wardsaid, that instead of the sum alluded to by the hon. baronet being incurred by the heads of the department, it was, in fact, the tails of the department

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that had caused such an expense. In consequence of the greatly increased extent of the ordnance service, it had been found impossible to do without a very large number of clerks and subordinate officers at the Tower and in Pall-mall, and it was chiefly to defray their salaries that the sum of 43,793 l., was required.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that with respect to reductions in general, if the hon. gentleman referred to a state of full war, the present establishments were great; but the House must now look to peace establishments. If ministers thought themselves obliged to keep up the ordnance, he must say, that their estimates were extremely large. He admitted that very considerable efforts at reduction had been made, but they might be carried still farther in the army and ordnance. He should by no means press for any farther reductions in the navy. He did not know, indeed, whether the navy was not too much reduced already.
Mr. Broughamdesired to express his approbation of the great reductions in the ordnance, and hoped it would be the model and scale on which other reductions would be made. Something, he hoped, would be proposed by the committee above stairs; but he anticipated, with great satisfaction, that after Easter the House would be able to resume some of those functions which appeared now to be too much in abeyance.
The several resolutions were then agreed to.

MR. BUTT'S PETITION.
Lord Cochranesaid, that he held in his hand a petition from Mr. R. G. Butt, stating, that the fine of 1,000 l. which he had paid under a sentence of the court of King's-bench, had not been applied to the use of government. He (Lord Cochrane), not being able to speak to this fact himself, had been that day to the Pipe-office, where he learned, that no fine had been paid there by the regular officer of the Crown-office for some time past. If, however, the idea of its not having been properly applied was a delusion on the mind of the petitioner, he hoped the House would not reject his petition without proper inquiry, as he had been deprived of his liberty for having published several hand-bills on the subject. It was highly necessary that some investigation should be made into the fact, in order that the public might know that no improper use had been made of the
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money. He should move to-morrow for an account of all fines paid under sentences of courts of law, with their subsequent application.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwould not then say a word on the motion which the noble lord intended to make; but he desired to observe, that the facts mentioned in the petition had been before him, and he found, that the fine levied under the authority of the court of King's-bench had been duly applied. It was ridiculous to suppose, that any misapplication could have been made of a sum paid under the sentence of one of the supreme courts of justice. No doubt existed in his mind, but that this individual laboured, on this as he did on other points, under a considerable delusion of mind.
The petition was then read, setting forth, "That the petitioner was, on the 21st day of June, 1814, under an alleged conspiracy against the Stock-exchange, sentenced by his majesty's court of King's-bench to stand in the pillory, to the payment of a fine of 1,000 l., and to imprisonment for one year, and until the fine should be paid; that the first part of the said sentence having been remitted under the plea that the petitioner had prayed to that effect, instead of his having protested against the injustice of the whole, the period of his confinement having elapsed, and the fine being paid, the petitioner begs leave humbly to state to the House that, having learnt during his confinement and subsequently, that misapplication of public money had frequently occurred, the petitioner made inquiry as to the application of the fine paid as aforesaid, and he begs leave to state that at a late period the said sum of 1,000 l., had not been placed to the public account in the Pipe-office, to which it ought to have been transferred; under such circumstances, the petitioner, conceiving he might be called on for the repayment of the said fine so withheld from the Crown, more especially as the name affixed to the legal receipt obtained at the Crown-office has since appeared to be a forgery, the petitioner humbly prays that the House will cause an inquiry to be made into the above facts, and relieve him from the danger to which he conceives himself exposed from the fictitious signature to the receipt, and from the misapplication of his fine."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

MUTINY BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of the mutiny bill,
Mr. Gurneyrose and stated, that on the suggestion of the noble lord, the secretary at war, that ministers were making their arrangements for the peace establishment of the army, and, that, consequently, when they brought forward their new Mutiny bill in June would be the more convenient opportunity to agitate the question, he should, in case the schedule marked B, permitting enlistments for life, unfortunately stood part of that bill, on the three grounds of its being a gross violation of natural justice, of its being productive of an incalculable aggregate of individual misery, and of its being a flagrant intervention on the constitutional law of England—move, that that clause be in that bill omitted.
The bill was then read a third time.