Sitting of 24 June 1817

ELECTION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. Wynn,after some prefatory observations, in which he represented the existing inequality in the duration of polls at elections, and the necessity of some regulations to prevent inconvenient delays, on that subject, as well as to diminish the expenses incurred by the candidate in the erection of hustings, the giving away of ribbons and cockades, &c. moved for leave to bring in a bill to alter and amend the laws concerning the election of members to serve in parliament.—After a few words from Mr. Curwen, Mr. Long, Mr. Butterworth, who remonstrated against the proposition for relinquishing the practice of giving away ribbons, the lord mayor who stated the present depression of the ribbon trade, Mr. F. Douglas, and Mr. Bennet, leave was granted.—Mr. Wynn subsequently brought in the bill, which was read a first time.

CONFISCATION OF PROPERTY IN DENMARK.
Sir J. Mackintoshpresented a Petition from certain British merchants who had suffered the Confiscation of Property in Denmark, in 1807, in consequence of the unexpected bombardment of Copenhagen, at a time when we were on friendly terms with Denmark. The original value of the property confiscated was 200,000 l. but the claims had, by various circumstances, been reduced to 100,000 l. The droits of the admiralty occasioned by the attack on Copenhagen, and the seizures in consequence, amounted to two millions, so that 5 per cent. on this sum would relieve the petitioners. A long negociation had taken place between the petitioners and the treasury; the petitioners founding their claims on the ground that one of the principal purposes of the droits of the admiralty was to relieve sufferers by the accidents of war. A precedent of a similar grant to that required was to be found in the compensation given to British subjects for confiscation of their property in Spain, which compensation was granted out of the proceeds of the Spanish frigates seized before

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the commencement of hostilities in 1805. The petitioners were encouraged to rely on the justice of their case by the proposition made in the other House in 1808, that the whole of the droits resulting from the Danish expedition should be retained, with a view to their ultimate restoration to Denmark with the exception of as much as would compensate the British merchants whose property had been confiscated in that country. No doubt the noble lord who made that proposition and who was at present the secretary of state for the home department, was still of the opinion which he then expressed. The treasury, however, refused the claims, on the grounds; first, that it might establish a precedent for similar compensations in foreign wars; forgetting that the compensation granted to the Spanish merchants had already done that; and secondly, that it might appear to be a recognition of the principle on which the Danish government seized the property, than which nothing could be more futile.
Lord Lascellessupported the Petition. He had presented many memorials from the petitioners to his majesty's government on the subject; and although he allowed that the general principle of national policy was against granting such compensations, yet, under the very peculiar circumstances in which the petitioners had been placed, he thought they were justly entitled to it.
Ordered to lie on the table.

HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill,
The Hon. F. Douglassaid, that the present measure was a suspension of the general liberties of the country as a remedy for a local and a partial disease. The effect of the bill was to enable government to keep in confinement, such individuals as they would otherwise be compelled to bring to open trial. On all former occasions, when a suspension of the Habeas Corpus act was obtained, the evil against which it was intended to guard, was of an extensive and general nature. In the report laid before the House four months ago, it was stated, that a combination to overthrow the government and constitution of the country existed throughout the greatest part of Great Britain. But it was impossible now to maintain, that the disease was of so general a nature. The idea of a general com-
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bination had been not only disproved by statements submitted to the other House, by accounts to which the utmost credit was due from several of the places stated in the reports as tainted with the disaffection, but by the verdict of a jury at Norwich, and at Westminster-hall. The last report exclusively referred to the lower classes of individuals in the large manufacturing towns. But even in this point of view the report did not appear to be borne out by facts. With respect to Birmingham nothing could exceed the patience, good conduct, and loyalty exhibited by the population during a long continuation of sufferings and privations. The allegation in the report with respect to that place he considered as resting on no proof. And even with respect to Manchester, out of the 12,000 people said to be assembled in March, with the idea of proceeding to London, it appeared that not more than 50 reached a distance of 50 miles from the place. Did that look as if the combination was so general as had been stated? The evil, therefore, was restricted and partial, and if the evil was partial, in God's name then let the remedy also be partial. This universality with respect to the operation of the measure, was what rendered it so very dangerous in the way of precedent. He should prefer much stronger measures, if confined in their operation; he should even prefer to subject the disaffected districts to the operation of martial law. It was too much, however, that because districts in a remote part of the country exhibited symptoms of disaffection, the other parts of the country should also be deprived of their liberties. It was the very mildness of the execution of the measure in the sound parts of the country that was most to be dreaded; when people saw that the suspension of their liberties was attended with no personal inconvenience to them, they gradually ceased to reverence those liberties as they ought. To the sort of spirit which was said to exist in the manufacturing districts, the suspension of the Habeas Corpus would not apply. What had been the effect of the measure? When the leaders, as they were called, were arrested at Manchester, other leaders were immediately found to supply their places; and this would always be the case. A great objection to this measure was this, that, like all other despotic measures, it could only be supported by treachery and fraud. The report of

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the Lords was cautiously worded, as all reports generally were; but when mention was made in that report of the encouragement given by informers, this was much too collective an expression to mean only one informer. They were all aware how easily a populace might, at times, be impelled by an unguarded word to acts at which on other occasions they would have startled; and this was particularly the case with a populace already half seduced by their distress. Hence the whole of the evidence submitted to the committee was of a very doubtful kind. There was nothing like a general combination in the present disturbances—they were merely local combinations for purposes of outrage and violence. The evil was to be met by a vigorous execution of the laws. There might be times when we ought to surrender a part of our liberties for the sake of the whole. But this could only be after other remedies had been tried and found ineffectual.
Mr. Lockhartsaid, the only question for the House was, whether an adequate necessity had been made out for the suspension of the liberties of the country. He contended that this necessity was not only made out from the report, but from the arguments of the hon. gentleman who opposed the bill. All of them admitted the existence of danger, and that the danger was not tangible by the ordinary exercise of the law. Indeed, the hon. gentleman who preceded him was willing to subject the disaffected counties to the operation of martial law. The disaffection had its chief seat in six or seven counties; but the danger was not confined to these counties; endeavours were made to propagate the disease in other quarters by delegations and missions. Endeavours were made to eradicate all religion from the minds of the people, to prepare them for their pernicious doctrines. No other law could be more applicable to the offence than the law before the House. He allowed that nothing could be more abhorrent to the feelings of a gentleman, or even more at variance with good policy, than the employment of spies in general. But it would be a great reproach to every government, if it did not make use of every engine in its power to discover the nature and extent of any danger which threatened the country. The same reason which sanctioned the use of spies in a state of war, sanctioned it in the present case.
Mr. Curwensaid, it was painful to reason
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against a measure which the House seemed determined to pass, but from a sense of duty he was obliged to protest against it. The first suspension was, in his opinion, unnecessary. Subsequent events had proved that there had been no danger in the plot which had been so much relied on. The whole had been found to have originated in the machinations of six miserable individuals. The ministers had recently shown a defect of judgment, which should not encourage the House to bestow on them any extraordinary powers. They had tried persons for treason, whom, if they had tried for an inferior crime, they might have convicted with the approbation of the community. They had also displayed a readiness to employ spies and informers, which was calculated to awaken the jealousy of the country. It was sometimes necessary to obtain the information from persons of bad character, and to pay them for it; but ministers, not content with this, had bestowed honours on them. What were the effects of the suspension act? Ministers had put in prison thirty-five individuals of no character, of no reputation, of no talent. There had been nothing in any of the plots which had been talked so much of since the Spa-fields row at all calculated to alarm any thinking man. So little alarm was there in Manchester after the intended insurrection of the 30th of March, that on the day after a gentleman who was a magistrate, passed through Manchester and never heard a word of it till he was six miles distant from that place, when they asked him, to his great surprise, whether half Manchester was not destroyed. If the persons apprehended were brought to trial, the existing laws, he had no doubt, would be found fully sufficient.
Mr. Vernonsaid, that although charges and imputations might be cast upon him for his conduct, he would not cringe before the tyranny of clamour, but would support the present measure. It was a libel upon the constitution of England to say that the suspension affected it; it was not so ill founded, its parts were not so slightly connected, its materials were not so brittle, as to be so affected. The liberties of the whole people of England were not suspended: "Let the gall'd jade wince". There were two causes that would operate to prevent the abuse of this law—1st, the arm of the law extending from the dregs of the people to the highest rank of power and dignity; 2nd, the superintend-

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ence of that House, which was not callous to any well-substantiated case of individuals or bodies, or politically servile to any party views. Prudence condemned, and feeling revolted, from, setting fire to combustible materials, or introducing the iron hand of power into a gunpowder magazine; but it was prudent to prevent the accumulation of the elements of ignition. It was said that juries at Norwich and Westminster had disproved the existence of danger. As well might it be said, that if a man had his head and hands cut off, he was not murdered, because the person tried on suspicion was acquitted. The rioters of Spafields made no attack upon butchers Or bakers shops, though they were half famished. This was decisive of their intention. The people would feel their security confirmed by the passing of the present bill.
The Lord Mayor,after the able and eloquent speeches he had heard on his side of the House last night, speeches which appeared to him irresistibly convincing, but which the division proved not to be convincing on the other side, did not indulge the presumption, that he could add any thing to what was so forcibly argued, or make any impression on those who had last night resisted the arguments urged; but he thought it a duty he owed to the situation he had held for a considerable time back, and to the place he now occupied as a representative, not to give a silent vote on this question. He should be obliged sometimes to speak of himself; but from the situation he held, and the exertions he had made, this was unavoidable. His exertions, he would fairly state, were constant and effectual; but they were not treated as they ought, by persons whose duty it was to pay his situation and his conduct more respect. On the day of the Spa-fields meeting, he took every step to prevent riot or outrage; he summoned all his men to attend; he was himself at his post. He came into possession of many letters connected with that business: many of them threatened that he himself would be shot, but these he disregarded. All the papers that seemed worthy of the least attention he sent to the secretary of state; but he must observe, that they had no mark of authenticity. He had discovered that they were written by designing persons, whose object was to create alarm, and not rebellion. He had papers that would employ and amuse the House till this bill expired; and if they would exa-
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mine them, he should be happy to procure, by such means, liberty to the people of England to breath one day in freedom. There was one paper, however, which he would beg leave to read to the House. It referred to the Spa-fields meeting, and was written by one who was himself and his family always attached to the government. The paper to which it referred was sold for one-penny, though it could not be printed for less than 3½ d. This was a proof that the printer was employed, and paid otherwise than appeared at first view. He begged not to be misunderstood. The paper he was now about to read was not sanctioned by his majesty's ministers, but the paper to which it referred was. This paper was put up in several very conspicuous places—"Spa-fields row. A penny's worth of truth. Go it my boys". He would appeal to the House whether that paper did not excite to riot; and whether, if it had proceeded from the other side, it would not have been thought worthy of prosecution? But this most inflammatory and mischievous paper advertised a publication sanctioned by ministers. As to the meeting when so many met together at so early an hour, when a few leapt from a waggon, and, joined by others, proceeded towards the city, all in presence of the magistrates and their assistants, when the cry was raised at one time, "To the Tower!" again, "To the Lord Mayor!"—why were no steps taken to prevent them? Why was no communication made to him? The first communication he had was from one who was not much attached to his majesty's ministers, but who loved his country, and deprecated the shedding the blood of his fellow citizens. The officers were not in attendance with him so early, because they had been at an execution that morning. The moment he heard the mob was advancing towards the city, he went out with sir James Shaw and five constables: the first time he saw them they were in Cornhill, the number at least 2000—a great number with arms, many of them firing in the air; they went to the back of the Exchange near the Bank; the colours and three prisoners were taken; two shots were fired at the lord mayor in the Exchange: he then shut the gates, went to the gates in Cornhill, and dispersed the whole of the mob, went towards the Minories; not a man was seen with arms. It ought to be recollected, that in the pretended attempt on the Tower, they never proceeded to the

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Tower gates. One man addressed a soldier across the ditch, as he stood at the bottom of the Minories. The whole, then, of this mob, from a meeting of 15,000 persons, was at once dispersed without any military force. What was wanting in the laws in this case? In what respect were they inadequate to the danger? He afterwards found some papers in the pockets of a man whom he since understood to be Watson. He found Preston lying on the floor, there being no bed, and his two daughters in the same room, with scarcely any covering. No paper whatever was found in that room. On his examination Preston talked of many thousands marching up to London to take it. This was the mighty danger that called for the suspension! After all, this alarming insurrection was put clown in one hour (for it did not really last so long), and without any force: was it to be gravely said, that the laws were not sufficient, and that the liberties of all England must be thrown at the mercy of the secretary of state? From that time to this there was no meeting in London. There was no evidence of any meeting; nay, their committee expressly admitted that there was none. As to another part of the country, with which he was connected, where the population was very great and the distress almost insupportable, where multitudes were obliged to endure the severest labour and toil, without sufficient sustenance, many living on four or five ounces of barley-bread in the day, yet in that extensive, populous, and distressed county (Cornwall), there was the greatest tranquillity. This was to him clear proof that the suspension was not required. But the advocates of the measure say that the law was not sufficient. The law indeed was not sufficient to punish where there was no offence; therefore this suspension of law is necessary in order to imprison upon mere suspicion. These were his views and feelings on this question: he was sensible that he could not, particularly after the able dicussion that had taken place, add any thing new; but in the circumstances in which he was placed, he could not give a silent vote [Hear, hear!].
Sir W. Curtisallowed all credit to the lord mayor, for his conduct on the occasion to which his speech referred, but he denied that the effect of the present measure would be to deprive the people of England of their liberties; nor did he think it true that his exertions had been the only
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obstacle to the success of the traitors who would have deluged the city in blood. Good and loyal men would not have remained inactive while their property and their lives were in danger. The Spa-fields riot should not, however, have been treated in the manner it was treated by his right hon. friend, and considered a little disorderly disturbance. His right hon. friend himself allowed that the multitude had arms; that they had fired their guns in the air to show how formidable they were; and in his (Sir W. C.'s) opinion, a mob so disposed and so prepared should be considered rather as engaged in treason and rebellion than in a common tumult. Those people said they met for the purpose of petitioning for reform; he did not believe a word of the statement. Of What use was their arms, if they meant peaceably to petition? Were muskets and military implements the instruments of quiet reform? No; they wanted no reform; they meditated rebellion, and intended plunder. His right hon. friend had spoken of facing the mob unarmed; and allowed his courage to be inferred from the hazards of the enterprise; but he would remind his right hon. friend that prudence made a part of courage. He had heard his right hon. friend declare out of doors, that he had given the chief information to government about the Spa-fields plot, and had mainly contributed to fill the green-bag; but if this was the case, he thought it strange, that he, as a member of the committee, had not seen in the bag the papers he communicated. A noble lord had spoken last night of the insignificance or the peaceable intentions of the reform delegates. They always at first proposed peaceable petitioning, but they generally followed up that proposal with a recommendation of a resort to physical force, if their petitions were rejected. He was convinced that the measure was one of necessity, and it should have his hearty support.
Lord Deerhurstsaid, that an imperious sense of duty impelled him to come to a decision different from that to which he was led at the commencement of the session. He had then voted for the suspension act; he would now vote in direct opposition to it. On that occasion he was actuated, not by any alarm arising from what was past, but from a prospect of the future; and supported the policy of the measure on similar grounds as a man whose house had been on fire would con-

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tinue to ply the engines for some time on the smoaking embers, after the violence of the flame had been subdued. Seeing that the danger was now completely extinguished, he could not agree any longer to this odious measure. If our political fabric had been in any manner dilapidated, or if any part of it threatened decay, let it be repaired; let the confidence of the people in its security and benefits be renewed; and let it be held together by the cement of conciliation rather than by the Iron cramps of despotic power.
Mr. Grenfell, however much he regretted to believe that dangers existed which warranted this measure, felt it his duty to give it his unqualified support. It was said that there was no danger, because the people whom this bill was intended to check were low in rank, and degraded in character; but who that had read the history of the same class of men in France, could allow themselves to be lulled into a false security by such an argument?
Lord Cochranespoke strongly against the bill. It seemed to him that the secret committee had exceeded their powers. The mode in which that committee had been selected was a mere mockery. What most strongly excited his indignation in the report was, the recommendation at the end of it, that recourse should be had to this measure. Unless the House turned over a new leaf, it was quite impossible that the present system could continue long. To suppose that the oligarchy could be long supported by a military despotism—to suppose that the people would con sent to have their liberties destroyed and trampled upon, was absurd. When he was last at Algiers, he happened to arrive immediately after at: execution of rebels against the dey; and it struck him with horror to see heads piled upon the walls of the town like shot in the arsenal at Woolwich. But if the course now pursued was persevered in, it was his firm conviction that we should cither sec, on the walls of the Tower, the heads of multitudes of the people, or that the heads of his majesty's ministers must be struck off.
Mr. Addingtoncommented on the speech of the lord mayor, two-thirds of which had no relation whatever to the question before the House. The worthy magistrate had talked of the disrespect which he had experienced, but had not stated from what quarter. It could not be from the home office, from which he had experienced every due at-
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tention, and where his personal exertions on the 2d of December, in conjunction with those of sir J. Shaw, were highly estimated. But it was ridiculous to contend, that to those, with the aid of half a dozen constables, the suppression of that alarming insurrection was to be attributed. The fact was not so. The armed mob was charged and dispersed by a troop of life guards, which was dispatched by the secretary of state himself, who went to the horse-guards for that purpose, and the moment that he heard, which was soon after one, of the armed mob in the city. In the charge, one or two of the men were severely wounded by pikes. It was exclusively owing to the extensive military protection that was afforded by government in every quarter, that the tranquillity of the metropolis was preserved throughout the evening and following night. As to the trumpery paper which the worthy magistrate had enlarged upon, it was not worth notice. It was certainly a very indiscreet publication; but government knew as little about it as the lord mayor himself. Mr. Addington then observed, that he had come down to the House the day before, with the intention of giving the House a detailed statement of the communications with Mr. Oliver, in which his noble friend had anticipated him. The member for Leicestershire had been reproved for presuming to say that he had heard Mr. Oliver was a man of irreproachable character. It was doing that much injured individual no more than justice, and he (Mr. Addington) would follow the example. Mr. Oliver was a respectable builder, and introduced himself to lord Sidmouth with highly respectable references. He came voluntarily to give information, which he had accidentally obtained, and solely with a view to the preservation of the public tranquillity. He had never been connected with the conspirators engaged to overthrow it. He had made no bargain, or solicited any terms for himself of any sort; he had to this moment neither asked nor received reward of any sort. He owed this declaration to an individual, who had been much calumniated out of doors, and not very tenderly treated in that House. A learned gentleman had totally misstated what had passed respecting the act passed in 1812, which made frame-breaking felony, and who seemed to blame government for having suffered it to drop. It was originally passed, not for one, but for two years; and,

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when he (Mr. Addington) brought in a bill for its continuance one year longer, it was vehemently opposed by those who were now most anxious for its revival. It was then given up, and another was brought in by the then attorney-general, reducing the punishment to transportation. A motion would shortly be made to restore the act of 1812. He entirely agreed with an observation made by the member for Bramber, that on great business like this, only a chain of difficulties and evils was presented. It was the duty of statesmen and legislators to adopt that course which had the most advantages and the fewest objections: they must strike the balance. Did gentlemen opposite presume to arrogate to themselves an exclusive attachment to this one of the great bulwarks of our liberties? Ministers had proved their reluctance to its suspension, by the short period which they in the first instance had taken for it. If they were charged, as they had been, with party motives and love of power (charges equally incomprehensible and absurd), in proposing its continuance, they might retort the charge of wilful blindness, and the most obdurate infatuation against those who shut their eyes, their cars, and all their senses, against the circumstances which rendered it indispensably necessary.
The Lord Mayor, in explanation, stated, that he had always received the most polite and prompt attention from the right hon. gentleman, whenever he required his assistance; but on the 2d of December, he must repeat, that no cavalry were in Skinner-street or near the Tower, and that the first appearance of any cavalry was at Aldgate, after the outrages were committed, and when the people were employed in collecting the arms which were scattered about the streets.
The House divided: For the second reading 80. Against it 30.