Sitting of 12 February 1817

AUDIT OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
Mr. Lushingtonhaving laid on the table an account of all warrants or other communications from the treasury to the auditors of public accounts during the three years, ending 1st January 1817, transferring the audit of any accounts from the said auditors to any other boards,
Mr. Huskissonthought himself called upon to make a few observations with the intent of removing an imputation on his character which the present papers would sufficiently clear. He was not present when they were moved for, but he felt obliged to the hon. and learned gentleman who had done so, for the opportunity which he had thus given him of correcting a misstatement or misrepresentation that had gone abroad through the usual channels, affecting deeply his character. In that statement it was mentioned, that 50,000 l. had been issued to him by order of the treasury, as agent for a colony; that no account had been required of him how that money was expended; that the treasury, out of favour to him, had issued a warrant to the general audit office, not to intermeddle in auditing his accounts,
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but to transfer them to the treasury. It insinuated a charge of gross corruption on the part of the treasury, first to favour and then to shelter him. These accusations were brought forward in another place, which might be supposed to be free from such misrepresentations, and by a person (lord St. John) whose character gave weight to his expressions. The accounts on the table would show how grossly unfounded such charges were. In the first place, no money was issued to him to the amount, or in the manner alleged; secondly, no warrant was given to transfer the audit of his accounts, nor had he ever solicited or expected a favour in passing any of his accounts. What could be the motive for spreading such an injurious and unfounded report? What was the object of the persons who deceived the noble lord, by imposing upon him such a story? Whether it was private malice or party purposes that was intended to be served, he could not pretend to say; but he thought, that the gross misrepresentation which had thus been propagated ought to operate as a caution against bringing forward imputations on character without some previous inquiry into the grounds on which they rested. He was as little disposed as any man to enter on any thing that concerned himself personally, but he could not let the present opportunity slip without correcting a mistake in which perhaps the motion for the papers originated. He begged pardon of the House for detaining it so long with a personal matter, and thanked it for the patience with which he was heard, as well as the hon. and learned gentleman, for giving him an opportunity of clearing himself from an unfounded charge.
Mr. Broughamdeclared, that in moving for the papers, he acted under no conviction of the truth of the charge which the right hon. gentleman had answered, nor did he impute to him any thing of the kind stated. He knew at the time he made the motion, that the charge was unfounded, and proceeded on a misconception. He therefore did not ground his desire of information on a belief of it, nor had he made any allusion to the right hon. gentleman. His object was different. At a late period of the session, two years ago; at a period when the House was generally thin, when there was no great desire to canvass proposed measures, when no important business was expected, and when, for that very reason, the most important

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business, was often transacted; he knew that an office for auditing colonial accounts was formed, and such accounts were to be transferred from the general audit-office of public accounts, at Somerset-house to this new board. A chairman and three members were appointed to this board, at a time when an expensive establishment, that cost the country 60,000 l., existed for a purpose of the same kind. The duties of the audit-office of Somerset-house were important indeed, and expedition was of the greatest consequence. The multiplicity of their business was made the ground for this new establishment; and though he always was averse to the creation of new offices, if expedition was attained, his objections would be diminished. His motion for papers, therefore, was directed to the object of gaining information as to what the new board had done; how it was proceeding; what relief it afforded to the office of Somerset-house: or, in short, what we had gained on this additional establishment towards the dispatch of public business. He was uncertain what use he should make of the information he thus gained; whether he should found any proceeding upon it or not. He had in 1812 occasion to inform himself on the mode of transacting business between the audit-office and the treasury; and if an hon. friend of his did not take up the subject, he himself might bring it this session under the review of the House.
Mr. Lushingtontook the opportunity of stating, that when he was asked about the number of officers in the colonial audit department, and if the place of the president was filled up, he was not quite correct in his answer, when he said it was not filled up, as he had since understood that it was.
Mr. Broughamthen asked, if the president, on whom the most important duties devolved, did not go out to Malta to examine one account, and whether he had not there died?
Mr. Lushingtonreplied, that he had died at Malta, and he believed had gone out to audit one account.
Mr. Brougham.Then the House and the country are to understand that this office is a sinecure, and that government has filled up a sinecure.

PETITIONS RELATING TO REFORM &c.
Lord Miltonpresented a petition from Dewsbury, in Yorkshire, praying for retrenchment and reform. The noble
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lord, in presenting it, observed, that it was honourably distinguished, both by the temper it manifested and the manner in which it was drawn up, from many of those to which the House had lately listened. It proceeded from people who felt what they expressed, who followed their own sentiments in their application to parliament, and did not frame their distresses or their remedies after models transmitted them from London. It prayed that there might be a reformation in the Commons House of Parliament, and that the representation of the people might be fuller and more extensive than it was, and this was the only part of the petition in which he could not heartily concur. In all that portion of it which called for economy and retrenchment it had his unqualified approbation, and should have his strenuous support. He was reminded while he was on this subject of what was communicated to the House last night, concerning the conduct of a noble marquis in surrendering his great emoluments—a conduct which he would characterise as no less honourable to himself, than he was sure it would be beneficial to the country. By giving up his enormous sinecure, he had conferred a benefit far beyond the value of the sum itself. He had done much to redeem the character of public men from the aspersions so industriously attempted to be thrown upon them. He trusted that the example of the noble marquess would be generally followed, that the public irritation would thereby be allayed, and that such sacrifices would erase from the minds of the people those baneful impressions against public men which it was the object of the wicked and the designing to create.
Lord Lascellesconcurred with his noble colleague in the account given of the petition and the petitioners. He held in his hand a letter stating the circumstances in which it was voted. It had not been handed about for signatures, but, with the exception of one individual, had been signed on the spot. The petitioners stated, that they knew the sentiments of the county members on the subject of parliamentary reform, but they nevertheless had such confidence in them that they would intrust them with their petition. The petition he described as most respectable in its character, and respectful to the House. Besides other grievances it complained of the burthen of poor-rates.
Lord Castlereaghbegged to say a few

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words regarding that part of the noble lord's speech, in which he had alluded to the conduct of a noble marquess in surrendering the emoluments of his sinecure. The conduct of that noble marquess was truly honourable, and deserved all the praise which it had called forth. As he had stated last night, the noble marquess had wished, for some time, for an opportunity of resigning, and had seized the first that occurred in which he could do so without appearing to be driven by clamour to surrender an undoubted right—a vested interest, which parliament had regarded as inviolate, and with which it never had claimed a power of interfering. This was the only remaining office in which there was a vested interest of great public importance, which, in consequence of its nature and tenure, had not undergone regulation. There was another, indeed,—the office of registrar of the admiralty—which had excited much public observation, and concerning which there were many mistakes; but it must be evident to every reflecting person, that since the cessation of war, the emoluments of that office were extremely diminished, if not annihilated, and might not exceed a regulated salary. The noble marquis had therefore, by his conduct, given up the last of those offices which, from their nature, the legislature abstained from regulating, and had thus closed for ever that list of places, and the imputations against those who held them. It was given to his father for great public services, and professional sacrifices; it was respected in every plan of reform or regulation; and it stood on a principle which parliament refused to touch. The noble marquess was pleased to surrender its emoluments from his own spontaneous movement, when he saw that his motives could not be misinterpreted, that he should sanction no objectionable principle, and that in making a sacrifice he should only be following the example of the highest quarter.
Mr. Broughamprofessed himself greatly disappointed at what had just fallen from the noble lord opposite. Whether it would be so felt by the House, or by the well-provided body of sinecurists for whose immediate consolation it was addressed, he would not undertake to determine. In common with others, he had felt the greatest satisfaction at the communication which had been made last night; but he did expect, that an example so nobly and manfully opened by his
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royal highness the Prince Regent, and so properly adopted by the noble marquess, would have extended to the lower departments of official emolument, and that the concession would not alone consist of the sacrifice of one enormous office (which, being now no more, he would not insult its memory), but would be followed up by other sinecurists, whose emoluments, though not so great, were equally censurable. These hopes, so fondly excited, were now too early damped. It looked as if the noble lord had got at once alarmed, lest the example should contagiously spread; lest, in the first place, the whole list of sinecurists, should quit the field; and, secondly, lest the alarm should discomfit the regular supporters of ministers, who looked forward for something comfortable, and aspired to the honour of being members of that political family in which there was great pay and no work. If such apprehensions existed among these worthy personages, the speech just delivered by the noble lord was well calculated to calm their anxiety. He, however, had heard h with great regret, from a full conviction that the only effectual cure for existing evils, was a fair and proper concession in this respect to the just demands of the people. He regretted that so good an opportunity was lost as the example of the Prince Regent presented of allaying popular irritation, and convincing the people of the virtue of public men.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Lord Cochranerose to present a petition, most numerously signed by the inhabitants of Glasgow, praying for economy in the public expenditure, and reform in parliament. The petition had been sent to him accompanied with a letter, which contained an interesting account of the present distresses of that district, and to which the attention of the House would, he trusted, be directed. It appeared from that letter, that such were the distresses of the middling and lower classes of the community, that they were not able to support their children at school, and in consequence of this, two Lancasterian school-rooms, erected at a considerable expense, were now actually advertised for sale. The same was the wretched state of the other schools, parents finding it utterly impossible to pay for their children's education. When the desire of every Scotsman to have his children educated was known, the distress of that country might easily be imagined

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from what he had now stated. The petition stating the grievances of the inhabitants, was expressed in the most respectful and moderate manner, earnestly requesting the House to listen to the piteous detail which their sufferings compelled them to give, and to put an end to unnecessary sinecures, and to grant a more equitable representation in parliament. The House, it was well known, was composed of too many placemen and sinecurists, and he confessed he was at a loss to know with what right these sinecurists imposed burthens on the people. They did not impose those burthens on themselves, for they drew much more from the public purse than they paid for taxes. They had therefore no right whatever to impose burthens on others, in which they took no share. He was sorry to hear what was stated by the noble secretary of state last night, respecting the motives which had induced a noble marquis to delay resigning his sinecure. It seemed the noble marquis had waited till an example was shown him, and had therefore followed the example of his Royal Highness. But he was at a loss to know what relation existed between the holder of a sinecure and the head of government. The latter, in consequence of his high situation, had a right to what he received, and any thing he chose to resign was a boon on his part to the people; but the former had not the most distant claim or title to what he enjoyed. He believed, however, the noble marquess had resigned it purely from what had passed at public meetings, and from what he had thence collected to be the general feeling of the country. Had he, however, done what he had now done, only a little sooner, he was sure that his example would have had as much authority out of doors, as that of the Speaker had within doors. He would not at present trespass further on the time of the House, but would only add that the petition he now held in his hand was most respectably signed, and that it could not be said the signatures attached to it were those of illiterate persons. Every man who knew Glasgow, knew how well the people were educated there. He would further observe, that he had now lying near him, twenty petitions expressed in different terms, but all containing one common sentiment. They prayed for annual parliaments, which certainly were preferable to those triennial ones so much extolled by some. Certainly triennial parliaments
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would have this advantage, that the seats then to be held would be purchased for half their price, and would be held for half the time; but were annual parliaments to be held, there would be no example of votes being given, as was the case last night, nor would members be called down from a coffee-house, as he was told was repeatedly done. Never did the House or the public witness a more flagrant instance of this shameful practice than last night. He concluded by moving that the petition be brought up.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, he was extremely anxious to say a few words after what had just fallen from the noble lord. He thought it was but proper, when the sinecure of marquess Camden was talked of, that the consideration on which that sinecure was given, should be attended to. No doubt whatever could exist, that rewards were necessary to be given to those who had held offices; as for example, he would say, that such an office as that of lord chancellor deserved to be rewarded. That office was certainly one of a most laborious nature, and was given to an individual whose eminent talents and practice at the bar had justly entitled him to public confidence. Such a man necessarily made many sacrifices of private interest when he was called to fill this high situation: which, be it remembered, was extremely different in its nature and tenure from the office of a judge, being partly connected with politics, and at all events an office only held during pleasure. Now, such an office, with such an uncertainty attending the time it might be held, certainly entitled the person who held it to some remuneration from the public, in consideration not only of the exertions lie made, and the services he had rendered to the public, but also of the great sacrifices he had made on entering the office. The late lord Camden, it was well known, had held the office of lord high chancellor, and surely he might say, that never was there any man more justly esteemed for his indefatigable zeal in the public service, for the prudence and activity with which he discharged all his public and private duties, as well as for his eminent legal attainments. None could be more revered than he was for excellency of character, and integrity of heart and life. He had in the early part of his life been honoured with the kind attentions of that amiable and much lamented nobleman, and could not avoid giving this humble

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tribute of affection to his memory. He had held that office but a very short time, and on his resigning it, had this appointment of 2,700 l. given him for one life, which as he was then far advanced in years, he had taken for his son. The noble lord who presented this petition had surely had repeated opportunities of knowing that the provision now very properly made by parliament for lord chancellors, was 4,000 l., which was 1,300 l. more than was given to lord Camden. An opportunity was lately afforded him of knowing this in the generous and disinterested offer of his worthy right hon. friend (Mr. Ponsonby) to resign a part of the 4,000 l. which he had as a reward for what ho had done. And here he begged to say, that never on any occasion had he defended sinecures, on the contrary, the House knew that he had even voted for an inquiry into the emoluments of the sinecure held by the noble marquess, though perhaps against his own (Mr. W.'s) feelings. In speaking of sinecures, he thought no obloquy whatever could be justly thrown on those to whom such sinecures had been given as a reward for public services, nor could they, with any justice, be called to give them up. Parliament, he was sure, would never withdraw such proper rewards. He greatly rejoiced, however, at the noble example which his royal highness the Prince Regent had set, and which, he trusted, would be followed in every department; and he could not help differing from his worthy friend (Mr. Brougham), who had rather fallen into the language of despondency. It was surely not reasonable to say that because only one star had risen above the horizon, we should not see more. He had no doubt the noble example would be followed, and he thought it had not as yet been followed, merely because those holding sinecures had not had time and opportunity given them to follow it. He anticipated their soon coming forward, and gladly hailed the pleasing prospect which would thereby be afforded to the country.
Mr. Broughamwould only say one word, after what had been stated by his hon. and truly respected friend. He had certainly been much cheered by what his hon. friend had advanced, and confessed a ray of light had now dawned on the gloomy horison. He was rejoiced to be delivered from that state of despondency into which the speech of the noble secretary of state had thrown him, and which, he was confident, had produced similar effects on many
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who heard it. He trusted the pleasing prospect his hon. friend had held out would be happily realized, and he was confident it would give much satisfaction to the country. No man could hesitate a moment in saying that any pecuniary compensation was inadequate, in every point of view, to the eminent services, splendid talents, and uncommon exertions of the late truly patriotic lord Camden. For such services as his no salary, no reward, could be too great. Yet, between his case and those who held other sinecures, there necessarily existed a strong distinction. This was the well earned tribute of gratitude which this country had assigned him. Theirs was only the fruits of court favour, to which they had no claim on account of their own exertions; and surely if the descendant of the man who had earned it so nobly, now so generously sacrificed it for the public service, the reflection must strike those very strongly who persevere in holding sinecures to which they have not one shadow of title.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

GAME LAWS.
Sir Samuel Romillyrose, in pursuance of previous notice, to move for the repeal of an act which had been only seven months in existence, which had been hurried through the House at a very late period of the last session, amidst a multiplicity of other public bills, had been read a third time at one o'clock in the morning, then sent up to the Lords, where it equally passed without any remark, and finally received the royal assent at the very close of the session. It was an act of the most unjustifiable severity, upon the merits of which the deliberate sense of the House ought at least to have passed; though he believed that the great majority of the House did not even so much as know of its existence. The act to which he referred was on the subject of the game laws; and it put the illegal destruction of game on the same footing as any felony, by rendering the offence liable to the penalty of transportation for seven years. Nay, it did still more; for it made not merely the act, but the mere attempt to kill game by night, in an enclosed place, a felony, rendering the offender liable to transportation for seven years. The bill enacted, that if any person be found in an enclosed place by night, not merely with a gun, but with a net, or any other engine

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for killing game, he shall be liable to the above penalty, at the discretion of the magistrates met at the quarter sessions. The game laws had been uniformly complained of as a code unusually severe; but such an act as this, he believed, was without example in the laws of any other country. He was quite sensible of the habits of idleness and profligacy which poaching created; but such an attempt as this to repress it was in fact defeating its own object: for the question recurred, whether it was just or politic to adopt such severe laws, which tended to drive to desperation the violent and lawless character of the poacher, who might be induced to repel force by force, when he knew it was a matter of indifference whether he had a gun, or merely a net, or some other engine for the destruction of game. He did not deny that acts of atrocity in the pursuit of poaching had been more frequent of late years than formerly; but the question was, whether a bill, which changed the whole policy of the game laws, was the most effectual mode of putting them down. Here the learned gentleman read the preamble of the bill, which recited, that many idle and disorderly persons had of late gone abroad, and had been trained up by habits of poaching to felonies, and even to murders. It then proceeded to enact, that any person found by night in an enclosed place, with a gun, or merely a net, or other engine for the destruction of hares, rabbits, or any other game, should be liable to transportation for seven years. Now, had it merely created a severe punishment for the offence, he should not have objected to it; but when he found it clothed with such extraordinary severity, he would ask, whether the preamble was not a mere pretence, and had not the offenders better go armed, for by doing so they would not incur a higher penalty? It was not his intention to represent the game laws in an odious point of view: but he must remind the House, that there was this obvious distinction between them and other penal laws; namely, that the latter were made for the protection of the poor as well as the rich; but this was not so with the game laws, which ought not to be clothed with such extraordinary severity. Let us next see, said the learned gentleman, how the act defined the period of night. Now the night of these wise legislators extended from eight at night till seven o'clock in the morning, from the month of October
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to the month of March. He had heard much of the omnipotence of parliament, but he never understood that it could change day into night; though every gentleman must be aware, that the sun was up three quarters before seven in the month of October, and, therefore, three quarters of an hour before these legislators still pronounced it night. This definition rendered almost every qualified man in the country liable to the operation of the act; for, as the sportsman was generally an early riser, if found in any enclosed place for game before seven o'clock, he became liable to transportation. It was also to be considered, that this discretionary power of infliction was left to the country magistrates, a body of men whom he highly respected, but who, considering their personal feelings on matters of this kind, ought not to be trusted with discretionary powers which were too large to be intrusted even to the judges of the land. It was, in the clearest sense, improper at any time to give any judge too much power, and he certainly lamented that penal laws should exist which were not intended to be put into execution. He hoped he should have the good fortune, in the future discussions on this proposed bill of his, not to be charged, as he had been formerly, with any wish to innovate on the penal statutes, and he trusted he should not (indeed he could not) be charged with attacking what had been sanctioned by the wisdom of our ancestors. This was the wisdom merely of seven months. When he recollected the period at which the act was introduced into the House, and the late hour at which the discussion had come on, when many of the members were fatigued, he was not surprised at the little attention paid to it, because he knew how exhausted, at that hour members were from the immense pressure of business. But he was more than astonished at the quiet manner in which it had passed in another House, when he recollected the scrupulous anxiety that that House had always shown, to prevent any innovation on the penal laws. He remembered an act of Elizabeth, dooming to the gallows such soldiers and sailors as were found begging in the streets without a pass from their officers, had attracted the notice of judge Blackstone, who thought it was worthy of being repealed. He (sir Samuel) viewing it in the same light, had introduced a bill, in which he had happily suc-

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ceeded in this House and in the other also, excepting one alteration made in his preamble to the act. He had said, "Whereas it was highly expedient to repeal an act, &c." the Lords expunged the word "highly," as, though they thought it expedient to repeal an act for hanging soldiers and sailors, they did not consider it "highly" expedient. He was astonished they had not been equally attentive in this case, especially respecting the palpable error of including broad day-light in the term night. The wisdom of that House had always been exerted to prevent innovations on the penal laws, and he was sure there never was a more flagrant innovation, at least in point of sincerity, than this was. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the said act, at the same time wishing it to be understood, that there were provisions in that act which it would still be proper to retain in any other act the House thought proper to adopt.
Mr. Frankland Lewis,as one of the committee that had brought in the act in question, thought it necessary to say, that at the time when it was introduced it was his opinion, that the severity of the game laws should be relaxed on the one hand, while it was increased on the other, and that game should be put on the same footing with other private property. And for the purpose of subjecting the invaders and destroyers of this species of property to the same punishment as those of any other kind, he thought it necessary, to give to magistrates the power, in certain cases, of sentencing offenders to transportation. The punishments imposed by former acts had been found quite ineffectual; and he had therefore, upon the whole view of the case, thought the act in question the best, under all the difficulties with which the evil which it went to remedy was surrounded. But he was not insensible to its defects, and therefore should not oppose the motion.
Colonel Woodconfessed that the committee with which this bill had originated had begun, in his opinion, at the wrong end, when they suggested the enactment of new penalties. His own disposition had been in favour of taking into the consideration of the committee the whole system of the game laws, with a view of introducing some more general and efficient measure. When he suggested the propriety of legalizing the sale of game as a means of discouraging poaching, he had
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been told that it was already notoriously bought and sold, as every thing else was in London. He knew well that there was a regular supply in the market, but his object was to take away the illegality of that supply. The committee, however, came to a resolution declaratory of the principle, that game ought to be made the private property of those on whose land it was taken. Whatever might be the justness of that proposition, it was undeniable, that under the present system game was brought to London from every manor and every preserve in the kingdom, and through so many hands, poachers, mail-coach guards, servants, correspondents, and poulterers, as greatly to enhance the price to the consumer. He decidedly approved of the sale of game being legalized, and thought some measure of that kind should be adopted. He remembered an old act, by which a person found at night after game was liable to be sent twelve months as a rogue and vagabond to the House of Correction, or to the army and navy for life. Every one knew the story of the soldier who was brought from Germany in a state of sleep, whence he could not be roused. He was taken into York Hospital, and, in consequence of the humane attention of colonel Christie, recovered. Having had an opportunity of conversing with this man, he found that he had originally been apprehended in Gloucestershire, under Mr. Joddrell's act, and sent for six months to the House of Correction, whence he was transferred to the Royal York Rangers. The affliction which he felt in consequence of being torn from his wife and family, brought on his singular disorder. He was restored however to his senses, and the Prince Regent, with that humanity for which he was so conspicuous, gave him a free pardon, and sent him home to his wife and family. Let the purchasers of game in this great metropolis reflect on this occurrence, and pause before they gratified their own palates at the risk of endangering some poor man's happiness. As long as such purchases went on, it would be a hopeless endeavour by any legal enactments to stop the practice of poaching. As that was the case, therefore, he trusted parliament would consent to legalize the sale of game. He had been told last session, that such an act would encourage poaching. He did not believe it. It had been said, that the power to apprehend those who had game

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in their possession, was at present one of the most effectual means of preventing poaching. He did not believe, however, that such apprehensions were frequent. If they were, how could the drivers of stage coaches ever escape, in whose possession game might almost always be found? Still, if it were so, he thought a greater public benefit would arise from giving up a chance row and then of catching a poacher, than from retaining the law as it now stood. He was also desirous that a provision should be made, to enable the lords of manors to grant deputations to the occupiers of such manors. That, and legalizing the sale of game, would obtain all the objects that appeared to him to be desirable. The public at large would obtain a supply of game, and the poacher would be cut off from his illicit practices. If the House agreed with him in opinion on the subject, lie should have great pleasure in bringing in a bill to the effect which he had described.
Sir E. Knatchbullhad no objection to the proposed repeal, provided some other measure were to be substituted for it. He hoped he should live to see game made private property; but at a time when arms were carried at night by persons in combination, and with an avowed resolution of opposing those who should attempt to defend their master's rights, some strong measure was absolutely necessary.
Mr. Ponsonbyobserved, that his hon. and learned friend's object was merely to repeal what appeared to him to be objectionable. That would not prevent the introduction of another bill by any gentleman who might think proper to bring it in; and, in his opinion, some law to protect the persons described by the hon. baronet who had last spoken, was highly desirable.
Mr. Bankesthought that a motion for leave to bring in a bill to amend and not to repeal the present act, would be the preferable mode of proceeding. He was very desirous of suggesting this to the consideration of the hon. and learned gentleman, but as he was not now in the House, he would move to adjourn the debate on the subject until Friday next.
Mr. Curwencould not concur in the proposition for adjourning the debate; conceiving, as he did, that the whole system of the game laws was unjust and tyrannical. To make the punishment for poaching a moderate one, and to enable
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qualified individuals to sell game would be the only way to put an end to those violent practices on the part of the poachers, which could not be characterised in terms of too strong reprobation. At present no purchaser of game weighed the distressing consequences to which his conduct might lead. He repeated that the whole system of the game laws required revision. By the present law, the unqualified person who sold game was liable to punishment, but not the unqualified person who purchased it. Could any thing be more unjust? And where, he would ask, was the principle of allowing the possessor of land to the amount of 100 l. a year a qualification, and denying it to the possessor of land to the amount of only 99 l. a year? He had once been a sportsman himself, and he therefore knew the value of game to a country gentleman: but he was not the less persuaded of the absolute necessity of a change in the character of the laws by which it was at present protected. There was no moral turpitude attached to the offence against them, and it was therefore impossible to induce the lower orders to believe that in committing that offence they were guilty of any crime.
Mr. George Bankesbegged leave to assure the House, that in bringing forward the proposition last session he had used every effort to obviate the objections that were made to it. With this view, he had asked the advice of a number of legal friends; and, among the rest of his hon. and learned friend, whose absence from the House and the country, in consequence of ill-health, he was sure he was not singular in regretting, he meant the member for St. Mawes (Mr. Horner). Not satisfied with this, he had even presumed to introduce himself to the acquaintance of the hon. baronet opposite, and to put into his hands the draught of the bill, precisely as it now stood; and he certainly conceived, from the remarks of the hon. baronet, that it met with his approbation. There could be no doubt on the mind of any man, that some legislative provision of a similar nature was indispensable to the protection of those who would otherwise incur the greatest risks in the discharge of their duty.
Sir M. W. Ridleyobserved, that the only legitimate end of punishment was the prevention of crime. The act in question had not this effect, because, from the severity of its provisions, it was only in cases of a very aggravated nature that indivi-

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duals could be induced to press its execution. He highly approved of the recommendations which had been thrown out on this subject by his hon. friend to legalize the sale of game, and to enable lords of manors to grant deputations. These regulations would make game cheaper, and thus render the employment of poaching less lucrative and tempting. He thought that the farming of licences would be a good mode of preventing poaching; as the person by whom they were farmed would be interested in the detection of poachers. It was well known, that individuals had been sentenced to trasportation under this act, simply for having guns in their possession at night. Now certainly great care should be taken to show, that there was a premeditated intention to use those guns in resistance against individuals who were employed in the protection of game. What was in many cases the operation of the existing law? To induce individuals who were aware that the very act of carrying a gun at night would render them liable to transportation, to commit violence for the purpose of avoiding apprehension. By whom, too, was the law at present put in force? He by no means meant to cast any imputation on the gentlemen acting as magistrates in the country, for whom, on the contrary, he entertained great respect; but certainly they were more interested on the subject than he wished them to be. He most cordially supported the motion for the repeal of the act.
Mr. Lockhartexpressed his anxiety to see the act very considerably amended. That could not effectively be done by any interpolations; but would best be accomplished by a repeal of the act, in the bill declaring which repeal there might be a clause severely to punish poachers for such proceedings as led to felony and murder. As to making game property, he should always oppose any attempt at a measure so visionary and impracticable. Where a large and continued extent of ground was possessed by one lord of the manor, it might be done: but where, as in most cases, a manor was interspersed with small freeholds, the only consequence of it would be to beget a system of trespass and ill neighbourhood in every parish, as well as eventually to cause the total destruction of the game itself—a circumstance that would be extremely injurious to the community, as the amusement of sporting frequently induced gentlemen to reside on their own estates rather than in large cities.
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He had observed in France the evils resulting from an abandonment of the sports of the field by the gentlemen of the country, who had, in many instances, substituted for them amusements of a description very unfavourable both to their fortune and to their character. He should be sorry to see English gentlemen driven to make such an exchange; and he should also much regret to see them deprived of the means of showing civility and attention to their neighbours, who did not enjoy privileges similar to their own. He allowed that the game laws were anomalous; but he denied that they were unjust Their general tendency was to attach country gentlemen to their homes, and to preserve those links that bound them to their tenants and to the poor.
Mr. Wilberforcewas of opinion that the existing law was unjust and severe. It subjected individuals to a severe penalty for an act, which it was contrary to the natural feeling of mankind to say was in itself a crime; and which men could be never brought to think a crime, merely because there were legislative provisions against it. He agreed with the hon. and learned mover, that that House ought to be very tender on this subject, interested as many members were upon it. Means might surely be adopted for preserving that which was unquestionably a suitable amusement for the gentlemen of the country, without such laws as those now existing. He strongly objected to game being put on the footing of other property. It was not, as in other cases where the insecurity of property rendered it necessary to pass very severe laws for its protection. To steal cloth from the tenter hooks of a bleachfield was a serious crime, with which to deprive an individual of his amusement could not be put on a level. The House were bound not to go beyond the strict limits which the case required. He could not help thinking that the preservation of game might be effected without so many invidious enactments. If game were criminally obtained, it must be criminal to allow it to be openly sold. If the selling were unlawful, the purchasing must be unlawful also. But it was not right to make up in severity for a defect of power, in cases of mere amusement; that was a principle which ought ever to be confined to crimes and offences of a high magnitude. No doubt, however, if it were enacted that licences might be granted, no person in a liberal situation of life would purchase in

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future, except from those who were legally authorized to sell.
Colonel Wood,in consequence of what had been thrown out, gave notice of his intention to move for leave to bring in a bill, empowering magistrates to grant retail licences, for the sale of game. This Power of selling game had, indeed, never been entirely taken away before the 28th of Geo. 2d. He had understood from some of the largest proprietors of game in the kingdom, that they would undertake to supply the public with game, and to undersell the poacher.
Mr. Huskissondeclared, that he could not see the connexion between the preamble of the act in question, which lamented the existence of illegal combinations of armed persons going out by night to commit acts of violence, and the provisions in the act to transport an individual who might snare a hare, or shoot a partridge. The punishments denounced in the act were not at all expedient for the protection of game, but were highly expedient for the protection of the gamekeepers, whose lives would otherwise be constantly placed in the greatest jeopardy. It was highly desirable that the present act should be repealed; but if parliament should repeal it, and make no provision for the protection of the persons whom he had described, they would, in his opinion, not do their duty.
The amendment was put and negatived. On the original motion being put,
Sir E. Knatchbullmade some observations on the propriety of coupling the repeal with some other measure in lieu of the act repealed.
Sir S. Romillysaid, he had no objection if any gentleman, better acquainted with the subject, should take it up, and bring in a bill providing other remedies in lieu of those in the act proposed to be repealed.
Mr. Ponsonbysaid, the most unexceptionable course would be, first to repeal the existing act, and then to bring in a bill providing the necessary remedies.
Sir Egerton Brydgesconceived some measure in lieu of the one proposed to be repealed as absolutely necessary.
Leave was then given to bring in a bill to repeal the said act.

ECONOMY AND REFORM.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, that he had waited in vain to see the ministers in their places, and therefore could not any longer defer bringing before their lordships subjects of great importance at all times, but particularly so at the present moment. He alluded to the topics contained in the various petitions that had reached parliament of late, and which were generally to the same effect, except in one respect, that relating to the extent of the reform of parliament; he found it absolutely necessary to take up a little of their lordships time, in detailing the nature of the notices he was about to give, as they were materially blended with the topics of their petitions, and as he was anxious, if possible, not to be misunderstood or misrepresented; not that he cared about misrepresentation himself, he had lived too long in the world, had known too much of political matters, not to be aware, that the people would occasionally misrepresent, when they had a pressing interest in so doing; he must therefore, in all such cases, trust to his consciousness of his warm attachment to the genuine principles of the British constitution; but although indifferent to it himself, yet when he reflected that what he had to suggest was intimately connected with the best interests, prosperity, and happiness of the country, he could not but feel a due anxiety on the subject.
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The petitions generally contained four points: retrenchment in the military, and also in the civil departments, the abolition of sinecures, and reform in the representation in parliament. Their lordships might recollect, that he had called their attention to the former subjects in the course of the last session, and had endeavoured, without success, to persuade them that it would be more consonant to their dignity, to refer their consideration to a committee of their own, rather than to a committee of three gentlemen proposed by ministers, who were respectable certainly in themselves, but too closely connected with their politics, to be free from constitutional jealousy and suspicion on subjects, particularly of this description. From the conduct of ministers during last year, he certainly had not augured favourably of their economical intentions. When parliament met this year, he had hoped, as an earnest of their intentions really to please and satisfy the country, that their first act would have been the reduction of the office of the third secretary of state with all its train of expensive establishment; but that boon was denied the country. Then as to the first point in the petitions, the reduction of the army, how did that stand? Why, so far from any hopes being held out of that nature, it was stated by ministers on the first day of the session, that so far from seeing the necessity of any such reductions, from the appearance of disaffection, it might be necessary rather to increase than diminish that branch of our expenditure. However, in a few days, an alteration seemed to have taken place in the minds of the ministers; for a reduction had been suggested in another place to the amount of between 20 and 30,000 men. Whether this was a proper reduction or no, was a subject he would not now touch upon, but leave to be brought forward by those who had so ably and forcibly discussed it on a former occasion. But in regard to the alleged disaffection, he must say, he trusted and believed it would turn out to be very scanty indeed, and that the words of the Speech from the throne would be borne out, that the main body of the people of this country were perfectly sound and loyal.—In regard to the second point, that relating to the civil expenditure, from what he had heard on the subject, he thought he should have some proposal to make to their lordships in the course of the session; for, if he was rightly

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informed, a committee had been appointed elsewhere to investigate that question, and of so little weight was it in the eyes of the public, that it was already denominated the humbug committee. If that were really the case, he could not expect much advantage from such a committee on a question so momentous to the happiness of a suffering but patient people, and therefore he should probably be obliged, in the discharge of his duty, to advance some of the questions under the cognizance of that committee, which questions he was informed might not be forwarded for three years to come, by the peculiar construction of that committee, and their lordships well knew that a dissolution of parliament would at once put an end to and frustrate the antecedent labours of such a committee.—As to the third point, however, the abolition of sinecures, lie thought, with the view that he had long taken of that subject, at the present moment it was particularly necessary to lose no time in bringing that subject forward, and therefore he had no hesitation in fixing that day fortnight for the purpose of introducing a motion in the shape of a resolution, for abolishing sinecures, and the grant of places in reversion; and he trusted that he should do it in such a shape as even to reconcile it to those who had taken part against these abolitions. Perhaps even the noble and learned lord intended such; but of this he was certain, that, should he even stand alone on the subject, he should never regret bringing it forward.—On the fourth point, that of parliamentary reform, he would also explicitly state his opinion. He had always been led to think, that the last plan proposed to parliament by that distinguished character, who had rendered so much service to his country, the late Mr. Pitt, was one that might be adopted with great benefit to the country; and if a bill, containing a plan of that description should reach that House, it would have his support. With regard, however, to universal suffrage, he would not be so uncivil as to call it universal nonsense, but he would call it universal impracticability; and in regard to annual parliaments, which some thought most constitutional, he had never so read the constitution; he had always considered, indeed, the annual holding of parliaments necessary to the preservation of the constitution, but not an annual dissolution and re-election of them. But because he dif-
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fered with others on that subject, was he therefore (as was well expressed by a noble person on a former evening, in a most eloquent and convincing speech) to wish to see those with whom he differed, imprisoned and gibbeted, hung, drawn, and quartered? Was he to wish to see a judge Jeffries, or one acting in the spirit and power of a judge Jeffries, placed on the bench, for the purpose of committing a legal murder on these people? For instance, should he wish to see major Cartwright, whom he understood to be a most respectable person, because he entertained such contrary sentiments, and endeavoured to propagate them through the country, should he wish to see his mouth closed, not by argument and fair discussion, but by the bloody hands of an executioner? The thought was shocking, monstrous, and diabolical.—In regard to triennial parliaments, however, he must fairly own, that since he had turned his thoughts of late more particularly to the subject, from the anxiety prevading all ranks of people on those topics, he had satisfied himself they were more constitutional than septennial ones; and, indeed, he must in truth say, that he considered the septennial act a direct infringement on the constitution, and a violation of the rights and liberties of the people. Indeed, he thought if justifiable at all, it could only be so from the danger of the times; or the danger of a disputed succession; and that as the danger passed away, it of necessity fell to the ground. The act repealed itself, and ought not to remain in the statute book. Therefore he would not shrink from declaring that it might possibly fall to his lot to introduce a motion on this subject, though it was more likely he would be anticipated by the introduction of it in the other House of parliament, to which those subjects more particularly belong. As the fortitude of the people had been great under their: difficulties and privations and sufferings, so had their conduct in all places, where meetings for retrenchment and reform had been held, been most exemplary; and, indeed, it was remarkable and even surprising that it should have been so, considering the great numbers that have been assembled in various places, and the warmth that naturally arises in large bodies when assembled from various quarters to discuss matters, where grievances are felt. This was at least no symptom of disaffection, and he trusted from such patient

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discussion much good would arise. The great anxiety he felt for the genuine purity and excellence of the British constitution, made him earnest in pressing these points on their lordships notice; and he sincerely hoped that the splendour of this bright political luminary, that had been partially dimmed by the mists of error and abuse, would be allowed, ere long, to re-assume its ancient dignity and glory. He had forgot to mention the report that had reached him, of the intention of a noble marquess, to renounce a large part of his sinecure. This renunciation might be very becoming, but he wished to get at the root of the evil, and therefore he proposed the motion he had suggested. This very renunciation showed the necessity of the proposal. His lordship concluded by moving that the Lords be summoned for that day fortnight.
The Lord Chancellorbriefly observed, that as the motion was the only thing which fell from the noble earl that evening that was not irregular, he should not oppose it.
The Lords were ordered to be summoned accordingly.