Sitting of 30 April 1817

CLERGY RESIDENCE BILL.
Mr. Manners Suttonsaid, that it was perhaps unnecessary for him to apologize to the House for prefacing the motion which he was about to submit to its attention with a few introductory observations. His object was, to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend and consolidate the different acts for regulating the residence of the clergy. In the first place, he begged leave shortly to state what the course hitherto pursued by parliament had been toward the accomplishment of that end, namely, the enforcement of residence on the benefices held by spiritual persons. The act of Henry 8th whatever had been its merits originally, or its ultimate practical inconvenience, remained in full force till the 43d of the present king. This act, which was then substituted for the former statute, was prepared by his right hon. and learned friend, the member for the university of Oxford (Sir W. Scott) and gave certain powers to common informers, which had been perverted a few years ago into an instrument of grievous injustice and oppression. To such an extent had the system of persecution been carried, that parliament felt itself bound to interfere by the extraordinary step of enacting, that all the existing prosecutions under the statute should be suspended, and the temporary act of the 54th of the king was passed. The clause by which it was made temporary, was not founded upon the consideration that the evil also was of a temporary nature, but for the purpose of affording a future opportunity of bringing the whole subject in the form of some general and digested measure, before the attention of the House. This was expedient, both for the defence of the clergy, and for the due performance of their duties to the public. The act of the 54th of the king was on the eve of expiring, the consequence of which would be the revival, in all its parts, of the act of the 43d, and the exposure of the clergy to all those hardships and inconveniences from which it had been judged necessary to relieve them on a former occasion by a very unusual proceeding. Assuming, therefore, that it was not proper to leave the law in its present state, or to throw the beneficed clergy headlong into the grasp of common informers, he apprehended that it was still advisable

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to recur to the general-principle and leading provisions of the 43d of the king. Many of its enactments were excellent, and the country at large was under the highest obligations to his right hon. and learned friend for the success with which he had executed a stupendous undertaking. The measure which he was proposing to introduce fell very far short indeed of the labour employed in the preparation of that act, which was the production of deep research, and of distinguished talents. Its author had undoubtedly been assisted in the execution of the task, by possessing the entire confidence of that House, of the clergy, and of the public; and thirteen years experience of its beneficial effects had shown that this confidence had not been misplaced. All the real inconvenience had arisen, not out of the act itself, but out of an extravagant abuse of the powers vested by it for a necessary purpose in the common informer. He considered that, by checking the liability to the repetition of that abuse, he should be furthering the end of the act itself, and carrying into effect the intentions of the legislature.
If he could flatter himself that he had now laid a foundation for the adoption of some new proceeding, it appeared to him that there were in this view but two courses to be pursued—either to revise the temporary act of the 54th of the king, or to pass the bill which it was his desire to introduce. The first was open to all the objections that applied to temporary laws; and if, upon the general principle, such a system was deemed vicious, it was calculated in this instance to produce particular disadvantages. It left the minds of the great body of the clergy, who were men of retired habits, and living at a distance from the capital, in an unsettled understanding of the existing law, and under constant apprehensions that every session of parliament would bring some new alteration. This change and uncertainty tended likewise to cast odium on their character, and create prejudices in the public mind, from the opinion that new laws were perpetually required to coerce the clergy, as if they were less zealous in the discharge of their duties, less correct in their habits, and, in one word, less professional than they were formerly. Although in his conscience he believed the fact to be directly the reverse, yet, when once this impression was received, it opened a wide door to slander, and led to a disposition in many
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to hold up some particular individual as a fair example of the whole body. He hoped, therefore, that this bill would at least be examined and discussed, before the House resolved again to lave recourse to a temporary enactment; conceiving, as he did, that, if possible, such a measure ought to be avoided. The bill had been prepared in a quarter which must necessarily possess the respect and confidence of the clergy; he meant, that it had been framed by the bench of bishops, and he need hardly add, with that care and industry which might be expected from their stations, their responsibility, and as he should say from their peculiar fitness for the undertaking. It contained not any new code of laws, although its object was not confined simply to the enforcement of residence, but extended also so far to the regulation of curacies as to embody in one act all the statutary penalties effecting either the beneficed or the stipendiary clergy. The act of queen Anne for regulating the stipends of curates, had been amended by the 36th of the king, which had been since amended in all its parts by the act of the 53d. All the provisions of this latter statute were substantially introduced into his bill, for the convenience of bringing the two subjects together, and not for the purpose of legislating anew respecting them.
He hoped he had now said enough to show the general spirit of the combined measure he had in contemplation. Its great principle was, as far as possible, to promote residence. So long, however, as pluralities continued, and men were subject to sickness or infirmity, some exceptions must be allowed; and one of the regulations of the bill provided in such cases, that an absence thus occasioned, should be supplied by a licensed curate, with a remuneration adequate to the labours he performed, and the responsibility he incurred. There were also some additional regulations with regard to the occupation of farms by the clergy, the law of which had remained in its present inconvenient state since the revolution. Upon the whole, he trusted that, whilst the measure would effectually secure the clergy from oppression, it would, at the same time, provide for the just rights and interests of the public, and that it would appear especially, that whatever could tend to lower or degrade the character of the former had been studiously avoided. If he should obtain leave to bring in the bill, it was his in-

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tention to move that it be read a first and second time, for the purpose of then leaving the blanks open, and printing it for the use of members, till a day should be appointed for taking it into consideration. He believed there would be no objection to this proceeding, and should therefore now move, "That leave be given to bring in a bill to consolidate and amend the laws relating to spiritual persons holding of farms, and for enforcing the residence of spiritual persons on their benefices, and for the support and maintenance of stipendiary curates in England."
General Thorntonsignified his assent to the motion, but trusted that the laity were still to retain the power of interfering in the discipline of the church, whenever it should appear to be neglected.
Mr. Babingtonwished to know, as the subject was of great importance, what were the principal amendments of the existing law which the hon. and learned gentleman intended to submit.
Mr. Manners Suttonfelt some difficulty in at once answering the question of the hon. gentleman, as the alterations were of a nature to be best understood when examined in the bill itself. With regard to the 53rd of the king, the clauses providing for the support of stipendiary curates were differently arranged, but the principle remained substantially the same.
Mr. Broughamdid not desire that the hon. gentleman should go through all the clauses in detail; but if there were any prominent features of difference more substantial than the rest, it would be convenient if they were communicated to the House.
Mr. Manners Suttonreplied, that the first part of the bill was only an alteration of the 43rd of the king, relative to spiritual persons holding farms; and the object of it was to allow a clergyman, under certain circumstances of convenience, to occupy 20 acres of ground in addition to his glebe. The next part related to the residence of the clergy. The hon. and learned gentleman knew that the 54th of the king remedied the 43rd of the king, by postponing the actions brought by common informers, leaving an interval in which the informalities against the act might be supplied. In order to give more facility to the due observance of the law on this subject, it was proposed to alter the ecclesiastical year, and to make it commence on the 1st of January and end on the 31st of December, the result of
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which would be, that all licences would expire on the same day of the month, and that all the clergy, and in particular all the bishops, would be aware of the exact period of their expiration. With respect to that part of the bill which related to the stipendiary curates bill, he was not aware of any prominent alteration. It was rather a dislocation and new arrangement of the clauses than any thing else.
Lord Ebringtoncharacterized the measure as one of the greatest importance. The mere rumour of it had excited much apprehension throughout the country, lest it should contain clauses calculated to increase the power of the bishops at the expense of the parochial clergy. He strongly recommended deliberation. He wished to ask the hon. gentleman if there was to be any clause in the bill giving a bishop the power to appoint a curate in a casein which the beneficed clergyman resided, but in the bishop's opinion did not properly perform his duty.
Mr. Manners Suttonreplied, that there was a clause to that effect. The only object of the clause was, to give greater facilities for carrying into effect that which was law already.
Leave was then given. Mr. Sutton subsequently brought in the bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Friday se'nnight, and to be printed.

LEAD MINES BILL.
Lord Lascelles Lord Lascelles moved for leave to bring in a bill for rendering the Proprietors of Lead Mines ratable to the poor-rates, according to the profits derived by them from such mines. He was induced to undertake this measure from observing the numerous petitions, from certain parishes situated in mining districts, complaining of the increase of poor-rates, occasioned by miners out of employment being thrown on them, while the proprietors of the mines themselves could not be rated. He did not wish to throw any impediment in the way of mining adventures: his object was not to subject the occupiers of mines to any new burthen, but merely to charge the proprietors of mines on the profits derived by them from whatever source. In some parts of the county with which he was connected, it had been customary for a considerable time back to rate the proprietors of lead mines to the poor-rates; but the practice was not universal; and it was certain that lead mines were not in-

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cluded in the statute of Elizabeth. He wished the question to be now set at rest. He did not intend to include in his bill any other mines.
Lord Miltonseconded the motion, and observed, that though this bill would establish a new law, it would not enact any new practice, as, for upwards of twenty years past, the proprietors of these mines had been rated towards the relief of the poor.
Mr. Davies Gilbertstated, that the practice had been the same in Cornwall as in Yorkshire. He was glad to understand that the noble lord had no other object than that which he had announced, as mistaken ideas were entertained in some parts of the country on the subject.
Mr. Curwensaid that the proprietors ought to bear some part of the burthen of relieving the poor; and he trusted there would be no objection to the introduction of the bill.
Leave being given, the bill was brought in and read a first time.

LORD SIDMOUTH'S CIRCULAR LETTER.
Earl Greyadverted to the opinions of the law officers of the Crown, referred to in lord Sidmouth's Circular, and observed, that what was there stated rendered it still more necessary that the case referred to them should be laid before the House. It related to a question of the greatest importance, involving, as he conceived, a departure from the practice of the constitution, and a violation of the law of the land. He should, therefore, move on Tuesday for the case referred to the law officers, and should then make observations upon the whole question. In the Opinion of the law officers he observed a reference made to an opinion of a learned predecessor of theirs, respecting the case of Thomas Spence and Alexander Hogg, in 1801. He thought it of great importance that every information respecting this question should be before the House; and therefore, if there was no objection, he would now move for that opinion.
The Earl of Liverpoolthought that there was no opinion respecting the cases referred to of Thomas Spence and Alexander Hogg to be found amongst the papers of the office; but that instead of being an opinion given, it was an opinion acted upon.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, the cases referred to of Spence and Hogg must have occurred when he had ceased to be attorney-general, as he had no recollection of it. He thought, however, that the opinion referred to was not one given, but one acted upon, and that Spence and Hogg were held to bail either by justices of the peace or judges of the King's-bench, he could not recollect which. He would, however, inquire and obtain the requisite information, if the noble lord would postpone his motion.
Earl Greyagreed to postpone his motion, in consequence of what had been so candidly stated by the noble and learned lord. He could not discover what authority there was previous to the Circular, for persons being held to bail in the cases alluded to, by justices of peace, and it was of the greatest importance to ascertain it.