Sitting of 13 June 1815

MASTER OF THE ROLLS IN IRELAND.
On the motion of Mr. Peel it was ordered, that the order of the day, for the second reading of the Bill to augment the Salary of the Master of the Rolls in Ireland, and to enable his Majesty to grant an additional Annuity to such Master of the Rolls, on the resignation of his office, and to regulate the disposal of the offices of the Six Clerks in the Court of Chancery in Ireland, be now read; and the same being read, the right hon. gentleman moved,

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That the Bill be read a second time on Monday.
Mr. Valentine Blakeregretted the postponement; but as it would be impossible for him to attend in his place in the future stages of the Bill, he trusted the House would excuse him for offering a few words on the present occasion. He was anxious to express his approbation of the measure, and also to correct an impression calculated to be produced by the statement of a right hon. baronet, that the Master of the Rolls in Ireland was raised to his judicial duties in order to enable the Lord Chancellor of Ireland to do that which he never had done, namely, to attend in his place in the House of Peers. The duty of the Master of the Rolls in England was divided with the Vice-Chancellor; there was no Vice-Chancellor in Ireland, and therefore the duty of the Master of the Rolls in Ireland was equally important and onerous with that of the Master of the Rolls in England; and that duty has been performed with an ability and diligence quite to the satisfaction of the eminent law authority who presided at the Court of Chancery in Ireland, and also to the full satisfaction of the whole bar and people of that country. There was no instance of an appointment received with such general approbation as that of the present Master of the Rolls in Ireland—an approbation which was quite sufficient to silence in the mind of his cotemporaries every feeling of jealousy or of envy. Was it fit that he should not be enabled to preserve the dignity of his judicial situation by an adequate allowance? The salary of the present Master of the Rolls of England, including the value of his house, was 5,000 l. per annum, and it would have been more if he had not declined an increase. It was equally competent to that right hon. gentleman to offer to do the duty of his office without any salary; but such an offer could not alter the principle acted upon by Parliament when the increase was offered. The case therefore was to be taken for the purposes of the present argument, as if the increase had not been refused.
Mr. Hornerre-stated some of his objections to the measure, and declared that even the authority of the Attorney-General for Ireland would not satisfy him that the Master of the Rolls had a right to make money of the Six Clerks offices.
Mr. Peelsaid, the present Master of the Rolls for Ireland had never taken those
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emoluments for the Six Clerks' offices which his predecessors had enjoyed, and shortly vindicated the measure.
Mr. Ponsonby, when the subject had been brought forward in Mr. Perceval's time, had been of opinion that the Six Clerks who had purchased their offices with an understanding that they might sell them again, ought to be exempted from the measure then submitted to Parliament.
The second reading of the Bill was postponed to Monday.

MOTION RESPECTING THE PROFITS OF THE BANK OF ENGLAND.
Mr. Grenfell, prior to proceeding with the motion of which he had given notice, on the subject of the balance of public money in the hands of the Bank, moved, "that the second Report of the Committee on the Public Expenditure be entered as read;" which having been done, the hon. gentleman proceeded to observe, that the motion he was about to submit to the House was founded on the document which had just been entered as read, and on various papers which had been laid on the table of the House—having reference to certain transactions subsisting between the Bank of England and the Government. He was here desirous of stating, that it had never entered into his contemplation, to propose a measure that would operate on any contract now existing between Government and the Bank—and still less had it entered into his view of the subject, to bring forward a proposition that would go to rescind any of those agreements, made by the Bank of England, and sanctioned by the authority of an Act of Parliament, which would expire in the month of April next. Yet it was, he conceived, in some degree necessary that he should not let the present session pass away, without laying before the House, a combined practical view of the facts contained in the papers laid before them. He meant not to move any thing on those papers that would operate at present. What he had in view was, some ulterior proceedings with respect to those transactions, that would lead to an improvement of the existing system, in the ensuing session of Parliament. In order to effect this object, it appeared to him (and he was glad to find his own judgment on this point confirmed by the opinion of others) that the best mode would be, to submit to the consideration of the House a series of resolutions of fact, founded on the papers now on the table

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—and in which would be embodied the practical result of the documents themselves. With this feeling he had drawn up a number of resolutions, which appeared to him to answer the contemplated purpose. Before he read those resolutions, he hoped the House would allow him to call its attention to a few facts, connected with the whole of this, as it appeared to him, very important subject. In the first place he would state, that, neither in the origin or progress of this proceeding, was he actuated by any improper feeling towards the Directors of the Bank of England—nor by any wish to abridge or curtail the fair and legitimate profits of that establishment. Amongst the directors there were many whom he had long been proud to call his friends—and there was not an individual in that body towards whom he did not look with respect. As to the establishment itself, no person appreciated more highly than he did, the great advantage which the country derived from it, and he hoped it would long continue to derive benefit from that great institution. But it appeared to him, that all the advantages which it was capable of bestowing, might be obtained without calling for those great pecuniary sacrifices from the public, which helped to support that wealthy corporation. He meant not to cast blame or censure on the directors of the Bank for what had passed. If censure were at all necessary, he conceived it ought rather to be directed against the right hon. gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), and those who had filled the situation he now held for fifty years, for the facility with which they had lent themselves to the proceedings of the Bank of England, in the transactions to which he had adverted, than to the directors of that establishment. And, standing in that place, he could not help expressing a doubt, whether the House itself did not deserve blame and censure, rather than the Bank: for though he held that the Bank directors had duties to perform towards the public (particularly in the present state of the currency of the country), and were not to be considered merely as the protectors of the proprietors of Bank stock—yet, looking to the facilities that were given to them for the last fifty years, it could not be expected that they would shun profits, and refuse bargains, which were highly beneficial to the general body.
Having said thus much, he should now
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endeavour, as shortly as possible, to state the view, which, as it appeared to him, it might be expedient for the House to take on the whole of this subject. In doing this, he would proceed on the arrangement to which he had adhered, when he first brought the question forward—confining his observations to two principal branches of the subject. One of these had reference to the deposits of public money in the hands of the Bank—the other respected the charges made for managing the national debt. When he first brought the subject of the deposits under the notice of the House, he founded his statement on the Report of the Committee of Public Expenditure—than which, a more able or luminous exposition of a subject of this nature, never emanated from any committee. On the authority of that Report, he stated, that the total amount of the deposits of public money, in the hands of the Bank, in 1807, was 11,000,000 l.; and, having no reason to believe that any diminution had taken place in those balances, from 1807 to the period when be introduced his motion, he rated them at the same amount, namely, 11,000,000 l. He contended then, as he did now, that those balances, which were unproductive to the public, were productive to the Bank, to the amount of the whole annual interest on the entire of those deposits—and which, of course, must be 550,000 l. per annum. This he considered as the sum which the public paid to the Bank of England, for the limited and circumscribed service of acting as bankers to the nation. He was told, that he had greatly exaggerated the amount of the deposits, for the balances had been very much diminished, as would appear when the papers were produced. The papers were now produced; and what was the result? Why, he found that the balances were not diminished, but that they were increased. On an average, these balances amounted, in July, 1814, to 11,966,371 l.; and he contended that he was entitled to consider the interest on that sum, making nearly 600,000 l. as the price which the public paid to the Bank in that year, for acting as their bankers. The items of the different balances were as follow:—

1814—

Unclaimed Dividends

£ 640,000

Customs, Excise, and Stamps

507,000

Post-Master-General

31,000

Various deposits of Government

3,767,000

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American Commissioners, and other balances

479,000

Under the head of Exche-chequer Deposits (Exche-quer-bills and Bank-notes deposited in chests of the Tellers of the Exchequer as cash)

6,542,000

The whole making an aggregate of

11,966,000

He thought he had said enough on this part of the subject, to satisfy the House that he was not guilty of any exaggeration, when, in April last, he took the amount at 11,000,000 l. There were two points, respecting these deposits, on which he would make a few observations—First, how far those balances were productive of profit to the Bank; and next, how far it was practicable to make them profitable to the public. He would not detain the House long on these points; for, whatever difference of opinion might exist on other matters, he believed but one sentiment prevailed at present on the subject of the profit made from those balances, namely, that they were as beneficial to the Bank of England, as they would be to private bankers, if placed in their hands. Nay, they were more profitable—because deposits cannot be made available to private bankers to their whole extent. They must always have in their drawers a certain portion of unproductive capital to meet any demand that might be made on them. This was not the case with the Bank of England. They had no necessity to keep any balance in their coffers. If a demand were made on them, they had only to provide themselves with paper, pen, and ink, and they were at once able to meet it. Supposing, however, that there were persons who still contended that those balances were not productive to the Bank of England, they must admit this, that they were unproductive to the public; and if any means could be devised to make them beneficial to the country, they could not deny that it would be a very desirable object. The question, then, was, in what way they could be rendered profitable? He had no hesitation in saying, that various modes might be adopted for that purpose, which could be easily carried into effect, if the Bank of England gave its cordial co-operation, and which were practicable, even if the Bank endeavoured to resist them. In the first place, the Bank might advance to the public, without interest, such a proportion of those balances, as, in the judgment of
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the House and the country, the public ought to avail themselves of—in the same way, precisely, as the Bank, at present, granted 3,000,000 l. without interest. This was merely carrying the principle to a greater extent. There was another mode, similar to that by which the transactions of the London and country bankers were regulated. A certain sum of money was left in the hands of the London banker, the use of which was considered as a stationary reward for his transacting the business of the country banker. Every guinea, beyond that, was charged with interest. Why might not an arrangement of this sort be adopted in the transactions between the public and the Bank? Suppose a balance of 1,000,000 l. was lodged with the Bank—it would, he conceived, be a full, liberal, and most munificent remuneration for carrying on the whole of those services; and, he was confident a private banker would transact the business for one-fifth of the interest of that sum, which would amount to 50,000 l. per annum. How would such an arrangement apply at present? The total amount of balances lodged with the Bank was 11,966,000 l. If, then, this arrangement took place, the Bank would advance to the public, without interest, in 1815, no less than 10,966,000 l.—one million balance being left as a sufficient remuneration for the services of the Bank.—The next branch was, the charge for managing the public debt. On the 5th of July, 1792, the sum paid for that service was 99,000 l.—on the 5th of April, 1815, it was 281,000 l.—being an increase of 182,000 l. Here, he conceived, there was a great ground for a reduction of charge.
There was one other topic on which he wished to touch—he meant the increase in the circulation of bank-notes. He did not wish to be strictly understood as desiring to suggest the propriety of any participation, by the public, in the profits derived by the Bank, under this head; but, if it were not expedient that the country should participate in that advantage, it at all events formed a strong claim on the liberality and generosity of the Bank. At the period when the restrictions were imposed, the amount of bank-notes in circulation, was from 10 to 11,000,000 l.; in the last year, it was 30,000,000 l.; and the average was 27,000,000 l. Here, then, was an increase of 16,000,000 l.—giving a profit of 800,000 l. per annum. He concluded by reading the following Resolutions:

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1. "That it appears that there was paid by the public to the Bank for managing the national debt, including the charge for contributions on Loans and Lotteries, in the year ending 5th July, 1792, the sum of 99,803 l. 12 s. 5d.; and that there was paid for the like service, in the year ending April 5, 1815, the sum of 281,568 l. 6s. 11¼d. being an increase of 181,704 l. 14 s. 6¼d. In addition to which the Bank of England have charged at the rate of 1,250 l. per million on the amount of property duty received at the Bank on profits arising from professions, trades, and offices.

2. "That the total amount of banknotes and bank post-bills in circulation in the years 1795 and 1796 (the latter being the year previous to the restriction on cash payments), and in the year 1814 was as follows:
1795, Feb. 1, 12,735,520 l.; Aug. 1, 11,214,000 l. 1796, Feb. 1, 10,784,740 l.; Aug. 1, 9,856,110 l. 1814, Feb. 1, 25,154,950 l.; Aug. 1,28,802,450 l.

3. "That at present, and during many years past, more particularly since the year 1806, considerable sums of public money, forming together an average stationary balance amounting to many millions, have been deposited with, or otherwise placed in the custody of the Bank of England, acting in this respect as the bankers of the public.

4. "That it appears from a Report, ordered to be printed August 10, 1807, from 'the Committee on the Public Expenditure of the United Kingdom,' that the aggregate amount of balances, and deposits of public money in the hands of the Bank of England, including banknotes, deposited in the Exchequer, made up in four different periods of the quarter, ending 5th Jan. 1807, fluctuated betwixt the sums of 11,461,200 l. and 12,198,236 l., including bank-notes deposited in the chests of the Exchequer; or, 8,178,536 l. and 9,948,400 l., excluding bank-notes deposited in the Exchequer.

5. "That the aggregate amount of such deposits, together with the exchequer-bills and bank-notes deposited in the chests of the four Tellers of the Exchequer, was, on an average, in the year 1814, 11,966,371 l. including bank-notes deposited at the Exchequer, amounting to 642,264 l.; or, 11,324,107 l., excluding bank-notes deposited at the Exchequer.

6. "That it appears that this aggregate amount of deposits, together with such portions of the amount of bank-notes and
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bank post-bills, in circulation, as may have been invested by the Bank in securities bearing interest, was productive, during the same period, of interest and profit to the Bank of England.

7. "That the only participation hitherto enjoyed by the public, since the year 1806, in the profits thus made on such deposits by the Bank, has consisted in a loan of 3,000,000 l. advanced to the public by the Bank, by the 40 Geo. 3, cap. 41, bearing 3 per cent. interest, which loan was discharged in December, 1814, and in another loan of 3,000,000 l. advanced to the public by the Bank, by the 48 Geo. 3, cap. 3, free of any charge of interest, which loan became payable in December 1814; but has, by an Act of the present session of parliament, cap. 16, been continued to the 5th of April, 1816.

8. "That this House will take into early consideration the advantages derived by the Bank, as well from the management of the National Debt, as from the amount of balances of public money remaining in their hands, with the view to the adoption of such an arrangement, when the engagements now subsisting shall have expired, as may be consistent with what is due to the interests of the public, and to the rights, credit, and stability of the Bank of England."

The question being put on the first Resolution,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that on a string of resolutions which, related to so many complicated transactions, it was impossible for the House immediately to decide, with satisfaction to themselves or justice to the parties; and he could take no other course than to move an adjournment of the debate to afford time for consideration. If the hon. mover had taken the same view of the question, it would have been the most convenient course that he should have abstained from any remarks on bringing them forward; but as the hon. mover had made some observations, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should also think it necessary to say a few words. As a servant of the public, it was his duty, perhaps, to attempt to push to the utmost extent the statements of the hon. gentleman; but he had a duty to justice, which was superior to his official duties, and which obliged him to say, that hon. gentleman's statements were exaggerated, and his deductions erroneous. The hon. gentleman had taken the amount of the ba-

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lance in the hands of the Bank just previous to the bargain concluded between Mr. Perceval and the Bank, with that now in their hands. The increase had been not quite a million, and the public continued to receive the remuneration which Mr. Perceval had stipulated for. When that agreement of the Bank with the public expired, it might be proper to consider how far that bargain had been beneficial; in the mean time, the Bank could not be censured as if it had imposed upon the public, as it paid the sum which had been stipulated for in 1808. It was said that the Bank could make more profit from the balance which remained in its hands than private bankers, because it need only have recourse to pen and ink. If the Bank so managed their affairs, public credit would be in a most dangerous state; neither would they be justified to Parliament and the Country if they increased their issues without regard to any thing but their own convenience. As to the terms on which private bankers would undertake the care of the public money, he was very ready to believe that there were many in London who would be glad to get eleven millions into their hands on any terms at all; but the question was, whether these bankers could afford such security to the public as to justify the repeal of twenty Acts, by which the public money was specially directed to be paid into the Bank of England. It was true that the charge of the Bank for the management of the public debt, had increased from about 100,000 l. to 280,000 l. since 1792; but the amount of the debt managed had increased in a still greater proportion, and the accounts had been multiplied to an extent not foreseen. The rate of allowance on the management of the debt had been lessened of late years, but that allowance might be revised upon due consideration; but in the mean time they could not complain that injustice had been done to the public. It was not any great distance of time since the present allowance had seemed reasonable to the House. The hon. gentleman had not taken the expense of the management of the debt at the time when the last arrangement had been made (1808), but had mounted to an earlier period, to compare the charge at that time with the charge of the present year; such a comparison was not, therefore, fair to the Bank. As to the increase of the issue of bank-notes, the Bank was answerable to Parliament if they abused the discretion
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entrusted to them, and be should in a few days submit a motion to the House, the object of which was to make an arrangement, by which the public would obtain a benefit from the extent of this species of circulation. The extent of the Bank issues had been alike advantageous to the Bank and the Country, and afforded no ground to extort unfair terms from the Bank in any bargain made between that body and the public. As to the charge on the amount of the Property-tax paid into the Bank, it was so small that it was the last thing he should have thought would have been objected to; indeed, the whole of the management of that tax was extremely economical. He should move as an amendment, that the debate be adjourned to this day week: in the mean time any hon. gentleman might move for papers to elucidate the transactions to which the Resolutions referred.
Mr. Ponsonbydid not rise to oppose the amendment of the right hon. gentleman, but to correct the mis-statements which he had urged against the motion of his hon. friend, who by no means insinuated a charge against the Bank for the terms on which they transacted the public business; but merely on the ground of an improvident bargain having been made on the part of the public. No imposition was imputed to the Bank; all that was wanted was a revision of the contract in future, and he concurred in the necessity of allowing intermediate time for that purpose. The plain object of his hon. friend's motion was to procure a fair bargain for the public; in doing this he by no means cast any reflection upon the Bank. With reference to the general Acts of Parliament, these were only binding for a certain time, and it was competent for Parliament to revise them at pleasure. The right hon. gentleman concluded by calling the serious attention of the House to the Resolutions, and hoping that they would be printed preparatory to any further discussion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he was very glad to hear that there was no intention of bringing any charge against the Bank.
Mr. Grenfell, in explanation, said, that he was astonished that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have conceived that there was any such intention. He had taken pains most explicitly to disclaim any such intention.
Mr. Roseobserved, that the hon. mover

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had not explained to the House in what method the public money was to be disposed of, if not left in the hands of the Bank. His only alternative was to entrust it to private bankers.
Mr. Grenfellexplained, that he had only mentioned private bankers with a view to ascertain what was the proper remuneration to the Bank for the management of the public debt.
Mr. Roseobserved, that if private bankers were not resorted to, there was no alternative but to trust the money to the Bank.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that according to the right hon. gentleman, the public were in the hands of the Bank, and it was lucky they did not exact still harder terms from the public. As to the entrusting the public money to private bankers, his hon. friend who made the motion had said nothing of the kind; he had merely mentioned private bankers to illustrate the subject. He would appeal to any banker in the House, whether the staple balance which his hon. friend had fixed on as a remuneration to the Bank was not ample, supposing the security sufficient. Would not the hon. baronet opposite (sir W. Curtis) be ready to jump at one-third of the sum? Notwithstanding the assertion of the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, it had been thought by some well-informed persons, that it was possible to set up an establishment in opposition to the Bank of England as its rival in the management of the money affairs of the public.—The right hon. gentleman expressed his surprise that the House had heard nothing upon, the subject from the Bank itself. There were the governor and two directors of the Bank in that House, and yet none of them spoke a word. But it seemed the resolution of these gentlemen never to open their lips, unless they could get something by it. They should not, however, leave a discussion of this nature to be managed on their part solely by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for that was not dealing fairly either by that right hon. gentleman or by the House. But such conduct, combined with other circumstances, served to betray the existence of that clandestine system between the Bank and the Treasury which he had long suspected; for he could never get at the secret of how many exchequer-bills were purchased by the Bank. No; this fact was studiously concealed, and that concealment accounted
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for the secret understanding which prevailed between the parties alluded to. But it was not the fault of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the time being, that the Bank was not made duly answerable for the profit of the public balances remaining in his hands. For no Chancellor of the Exchequer could, under existing circumstances, safely dispute with the Bank, as the fact was, that the Treasury could not go on without the concurrence and aid of that body. Hence the Bank had the power to make as good a bargain for itself as it thought proper. The House had no doubt heard a great deal about liberality and fine feeling in the transactions of the Bank with regard to the pubic; but, without meaning any disrespect, he really could not calculate upon much fine feeling or liberality to the east of Temple-bar, especially upon money matters—[A laugh]. The object of his hon. friend's motion was to ascertain the emoluments derived by the Bank from its transactions with the public, in order to know what participation of profit the public was intitled to expect; and according to the last Resolution, it was the opinion of his hon. friend that a much better arrangement for the public might be made with the Bank, than that which at present existed. In this opinion he decidedly concurred. He did not require or expect that an improved arrangement could be obtained by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or by any individual holding his office; for he could not well drive a bargain with a body upon whose will the Treasury was so dependent. But he put it to that House to consider, whether the public had not a fair claim to a due share of those enormous profits, which the Bank extracted from the exigencies of the country. No one could deny, that in consequence of the restriction of cash payments, the Bank derived a profit far beyond what could have been contemplated by the Bank proprietors, before that restriction took place. Those proprietors, then, should not be allowed to monopolize profits arising out of the distress of the empire. Some return was surely due to the public; but an adequate return could never be expected through the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the Treasury. If, however, that House took up the question, he had no doubt that the Bank would be obliged to make such return; and with that view he supported his hon. friend's proposition. But he should con-

769]
sent to the proposed postponement of the discussion, in the hope that some resolutions would be brought forward on the other side, calculated to put the House in complete possession of the case. Those Resolutions, however, should not be left entirely to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but should contain what the Bank had to state; and therefore he expected that although the Bank directors declined to speak, they would endeavour to write for the information of the House upon this question.
Mr. Roseexplained. He thought it might be proper to re-consider the bargain with the Bank, as the public were undoubtedly entitled to as good an arrangement as could be made for them.
Mr. Huskissondefended the bargain made with the Bank by the late Mr. Perceval, in 1808. In that transaction Government had employed every possible argument in favour of the public, and it was not without considerable difficulty that they obtained from the Court of Directors a loan of three millions without interest. It was, however, now open to the House to re-consider the bargain.
Mr. Tierneyexplained. He was now more fully convinced than ever, that no Chancellor of the Exchequer could do what he wished to do, till different arrangements were made. It now turned out that the bargain was such as might have been mended; and as Mr. Perceval had tried every argument without effect, it showed that Threadneedle-street was an overmatch for Downing-street.
Mr. Huskissonexplained. Government had only consented to such a bargain as they thought was fit between the public and the Bank.
Mr. Thorntonsaid, that as it was intended to print the hon. gentleman's Resolutions, he should have abstained from making any remarks until a future day, but he thought the House might be misled by the Resolution that excluded the banknotes deposited at the Exchequer from the public balances in the two periods of 1807 and 1814, which were compared with each other, as the leaving out these bank-notes made a difference in the deposit of three millions beyond what it really was. He objected to the last Resolution, by which the House was called upon to pledge itself to take into consideration the arrangement between the Bank and the public, which had always heretofore been entrusted to the Executive
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Government, and in matters of so much confidence and delicacy, could not be elsewhere so well placed. With respect to the allowance to the Bank for the management of the public debt, he said it was true that in 1792 the allowance was about 99,000 l., and in 1814, 280,000 l.: but did gentlemen consider the immense increase in the national debt; the risk and the difficulty of conducting it? The number of clerks was in the first period 380; and now above 1,000. He next adverted to the gratuitous services rendered by the Bank to the public:—for receiving the tax on trading profits, they charged nothing; 17,500,000 l. 5 per cents, had been either paid off, or converted into other stock, without any charge for superintending this service; nearly one hundred millions of exchequer-bills had, in the last eight years, been funded, and no charge made for it by the Bank. Lastly, by the capital of the Bank, lent at 3 per cent. interest, three millions without interest, and other concessions, the public derived a benefit from that corporation of 490,000 l. a year. He stated, that it was his anxious wish, and that of his brother directors, that what was fair and just between the public and the Bank should take effect; and he was confident the House might safely, as heretofore, leave the arrangement to them and Government, reserving to itself the undoubted right to sanction or disapprove the bargain when it should have been made. One principle, however, he must guard the House against, which was, the being supposed to connive at the restriction on cash payments longer than was absolutely necessary. If the Bank and the public were to participate in the profits on the supposed issue of an increased extent in consequence of the restriction, they would naturally and very fairly be supposed to have a concurrent interest in continuing it; and the best security for a wholesome limit to its duration would be taken away. He wished, and could with confidence say of the other directors of the Bank, that they were axious to maintain a limited issue of bank-notes, and to return to the payment of their notes in cash the moment it could be done with safely to the commercial and political interests of the state.
Mr. Grenfell, in reply to the hon. director, stated, that he did not propose any inquiry with regard to the private affairs of the Bank: but as far as the public were concerned with that body, he

771]
thought it the duty of the House to institute an inquiry, in order to secure to the public its due share of profits upon a course of dealing in which the Bank was a material gainer. He denied that his Resolutions contained any inaccuracy. As to exchequer-bills, he asked whether the Bank was not in the habit of depositing such bills at the Exchequer, in exchange for bank-notes, which bills bore interest not for the benefit of the public, but for that of the Bank? Also, whether the Bank was not in the habit of depositing special notes with the Tellers of the Exchequer, which notes could not be properly denominated Banknotes, and which were not therefore included in the account of the issues of the Bank? If he was rightly informed, the answer must be in the affirmative, and this system furnished an additional source of profit to the Bank, without any due return to the public. With regard to the number of clerks employed by the Bank, it could not be pretended that any great proportion of those clerks was engaged in the public service. One hundred of them, indeed, were employed in superintending the issue of 1l. and 2l. notes; and as to the collection of the Property-tax upon the dividends, it was simply nothing more than this, that where a stock-holder was entitled to a dividend of 100 l. the Bank paid him only 90 l., and how could the Bank pretend to demand any remuneration from the public for a thing which could not be said to occasion any trouble? But the case between the public and the Bank was shortly this, that the latter derived an increased profit of 80,000 l. per annum from the restriction of cash payment, of which profit he maintained that the public was entitled to a fair participation, and to obtain that remuneration was the object of his propositions.
Mr. Forbessaid, that the country owed a great obligation to the hon. member for bringing this question before the House, and added, that the Bank did not pay by any means a due commutation for stamp-duties; for it paid only 42,000 l. a year on this score, while 160,000 l. were paid by the private banks, although the latter did not issue half as many notes as the former. In order to ascertain the comparative issue of these notes, the hon. member gave notice of a motion on the subject.
Mr. Grenfellhoped, the hon. gentleman would make a motion on that sub-
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ject; if not, he pledged himself to make it. He believed, that up to last month, the amount of bank-notes in circulation was 27 millions.
After a few words from Mr. Mellish, the question was put, and carried, that the further debate on the Resolutions should be adjourned to that day se'nnight.

BILL TO PREVENT ILLICIT IMPORTATION OF SLAVES.
Mr. Wilberforcerose, pursuant to notice, to bring under the consideration of the House, his motion respecting the registry of slaves in the British colonies. He felt a satisfaction, he said, in thinking that the measure which he intended to propose was one which involved no novelty of principle, but was, in fact, merely a supplement to the Bill for the abolition of the Slave-trade. It had been already adopted, to a certain extent, in the island of Trinidad, after a most mature and deliberate investigation, and had proved highly beneficial. He was happy to add also, that the principle of the measure was one which had received the decided approbation of the late Mr. Perceval, and which it had always been his intention to extend to those colonies which have colonial legislatures, as well as to those which had not. He was concerned to hear, however, that he might expect to receive opposition from many gentlemen in that House, who represented the West-India interest in it; and that opposition rendered it the more necessary that he should distinctly state the great principle upon which he intended to rest his measure. The object of it was not merely to check the various means by which the abolition laws were evaded or violated, but to prevent the continuance of the source of the evil itself. Many of his friends who then heard him would remember that, during the various discussions upon the abolition of the Slave-trade, it was constantly urged, both in that House and out of it, that no substantial benefit could be obtained, unless measures were devised to introduce those moral regulations with respect to the treatment of the slaves, which might secure a supply of slaves without looking to the slave-market for that supply. The great object of the abolitionists at that time certainly was to stop the supply from Africa, and thus lay the foundations for any superstructure which it might afterwards be expedient to raise. But it was impossible to do all that might have been wished, at

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once; and indeed he would frankly confess, that when the Slave-trade Bill passed, the friends of that measure did not dare to encumber it then with more extensive operations than at that time belonged to it. Now, however, the period had arrived when supplementary measures might not only be resorted to, but when in fact they were called for from the practices which undoubtedly existed in the West India islands. He most earnestly entreated those gentlemen, therefore, who intended to resist the motion he should have the honour of submitting, maturely and deliberately to weigh all the merits of it before they were induced to oppose it. He had been informed, from various sources of intelligence, that the illicit introduction of slaves into the West India islands (he was bound, injustice, however, to except the island of Jamaica) was still carried on to a very great extent; and a strong fact in confirmation of that intelligence was, that there had been but little increase in the price of slaves since the passing of the Abolition Act. Great and dreadful abuses also in the treatment of those unhappy beings still prevailed; and it was impossible, he feared, to expect any beneficial reform till some positive enactment took place, which should clearly render it the interest of those who had a property in them to promote their comforts, and secure the means of their increase without any possible supply from Africa. He was now contending for the happiness and benefit of the West Indian slaves; and undoubtedly if there were any means that could be proposed which would render completely effectual the Abolition Act, he could not doubt that the House would be earnestly disposed to promote them. He would therefore stale to the House the measure which he had in contemplation for accomplishing that object. It was in fact by the means of registering the slaves. The House was aware that a register of them was already kept in every island; but it was not so particular and exact, as to render it a specification by which the identity of the slave could be ascertained. The mode of registry which he intended to propose would precisely accomplish that object; a duplicate or counterpart of it would also be transmitted to this country, where it would be preserved, and constitute the title of the owner to the negro; so that in order to prove that title or claim to a negro, it would be absolutely necessary to produce
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the register. The illicit introduction of slaves would thus be effectually prevented, as all frauds or falsification in that register would be subjected to heavy punishment. Such was the leading principle of his measure, which was so simple that it explained itself, and so safe and so useful, that he thought it would be laying the foundation-stone of a reform which would gradually operate through all the ramifications of West-Indian management with respect to slaves; and if such were the effects that might be anticipated, who that felt any interest in the welfare and happiness of those unfortunate beings, would hesitate to give his support to it?—With respect to the objection, that the measure would interfere with the colonial legislatures, he denied its cogency. The most enlightened of those legislators would also deny it. The paramount right of control on the part of the Legislature of this country, had been at all times acknowledged. On this subject the delusion would soon pass away, as it had passed away on the subject of the abolition of the Slave-trade itself—a measure which was now universally allowed to be one of undeniable justice and humanity. It was not to be expected that the colonial powers would resist the operation of this proposed measure; and were they to resist it, that resistance would be ineffectual. There were other considerations, of a much more powerful nature, to induce the House to accede to his proposition, arising out of the duty of Parliament to provide for the moral and religious instruction of the negroes; and thus to endeavour to make them some amends for their sufferings in this world, by opening to them brighter prospects of a future existence. Above all other circumstances, he had looked to the encouragement of marriage among the slaves, as a necessary and most beneficial consequence of the abolition of the trade. In Africa, it appeared from Park's account that marriages were very prevalent, and very rarely violated. In St. Domingo, after the slaves had vindicated their rights, marriages became universally prevalent, and were much encouraged by rendering unmarried men incapable of admission to high offices in the state. Adverting to the abolition of the Slave-trade in France, he observed that the character of Buonaparté justified the suspicion that he would endeavour to tamper with our islands, and thus the expediency was confirmed of attaching to ourselves as much as possible the negroes as

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well as the free coloured race; the recent admission of the last of which to the right of giving evidence on criminal trials, he had been very happy to learn. Another stimulus to a due attention to the interests of the negro population arose from the contemplation of the numbers of our brave soldiers who had fallen victims to their efforts. How desirable would it be to convert the slaves into a free and happy peasantry, capable of defending the islands which they inhabited, instead of endangering them by their presence! The legislature of Antigua had done themselves immortal honour by their resolution expressive of their willingness to accede to any plan of rational and practicable reform; and he trusted that, on cool consideration, all the rest of our colonies would see the advantage of imitating so liberal an example. He should be most happy to have them for his coadjutors in this great work. In conclusion, he moved for leave to bring in a Bill "for better preventing the illicit Importation of Slaves into the British Colonies."
Mr. A. Brownesaid, that he felt considerable difficulty in addressing the House, after the eloquent and impressive speech they had just heard; but he would not shrink from the task from any sense of personal inconvenience. The House would perceive in the explanation which the hon. member had given of the object of his Bill, abundant reason for postponing any further consideration of it, in the present advanced state of the session, even if they should be disposed to grant leave to bring it in; and indeed if the session were not so far advanced, considering how seriously the Bill affected the private interests of individuals unrepresented in this House, and who are removed to a distance from the immediate influence and protection of the government, and how seriously it affected the constitutional and local authorities of the colonies,—the House in its justice would feel the necessity of postponing any proceedings upon it, until the nature and object of the Bill was known to those who had so deep an interest in its enactments.
He regretted to find so much room for objection, both in the principle and in the detail of the plan, by which the hon. gentleman sought to accomplish the purpose of preventing the clandestine importation of slaves. Possibly no professions of his, with respect to a desire on his part to see the great work of abolition carried into
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effect, would be received with much credit by the hon. gentleman or those who acted with him. The noble lord over the way had not been free from that suspicion; and if after the anxiety which he had manifested to extend and perfect that great object,—if after all the great talent which he had employed to extend the influence of our opinion of the nature of this trade, to the other Powers of Europe, with a view to one common and general condemnation of it,—if after all his exertion, he had not escaped suspicion,—it was not for him to complain, if without such claims, or without, indeed, any claims whatever, he should be subject to the like suspicion. Undoubtedly, however, there had been no want of co-operation on the part of those members of the House, who were connected with the colonies, in any and every measure that had been devised to give effect to the abolition law. An Act had been passed to render the offence a felony, against which not a voice had been raised: and this year, an Act had passed this House at least, with very little objection, which had been thought elsewhere to be carried to an unnecessary and extravagant length. He was entitled, therefore, to say, that whatever difference of opinion the present proposition might occasion, that difference of opinion must proceed upon other grounds than a want of feeling to give effect to the bonâ fide abolition of the trade.
The present proposition involved something further than the mere preventing, by a prohibitory statute, any clandestine importation of slaves—it went to effect a measure of internal regulation in the colonies, and involved therefore the doubtful and hazardous question of the right of this country to legislate for the internal and domestic concerns of the colonies. It was subversive of the local constitutional authorities of their legislatures, and seemed to threaten with the most fearful consequences, the whole tenure of private property. The hon. member had employed himself, not for the purpose of satisfying the House, that in spite of the law as it stood, a clandestine importation of slaves had taken place, so as to make further measures of prohibition necessary; but he had used almost the whole of his speech in reprobation of the general system of the colonies, and to excite that general feeling which had been so useful upon former occasions: but he would confidently appeal to the House, whether, in a

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due regard to the consistency of their own proceedings, they ought not to be satisfied that the evil against which they were about to guard, did in point of fact exist, and that the law as it stood was insufficient to prevent it. The general system of the colonies, whether good or bad, was foreign to the present question: they were desired to give leave to bring in a Bill to prevent the clandestine importation of slaves. The Statute Book being full of Acts to prevent the carrying on any traffic whatever in slaves, and to make it a felony for any one to do so; surely before the House could be reasonably asked to make any further law upon the subject, it ought to be shown, in a regular parliamentary way, that the law was insufficient to prevent the offence, and that a clandestine importation had taken place. He himself did not believe that any such clandestine importation had taken place in any of the islands. The hon. member had admitted that there had been none in Jamaica. He (Mr. Browne) was persuaded there had been none in Antigua: nor did he believe, from any inquiries that he had been enabled to make, that any clandestine importation had taken place in any of the other islands. It was his intention, therefore, to move for a committee to inquire into the fact, as the necessary foundation of any further legislative proceedings. If it should be found that the evil did exist, he would go every length in his power to prevent it; but without the establishment of the fact by a parliamentary inquiry, he would not involve a whole class of men, unfortunately doomed to a residence in the West Indies, in a charge of so conniving to elude the law, as to make it necessary to render the offence more penal or more difficult to be committed. It was due to those whose characters were thus involved, and it was moreover due to the regular course of parliamentary proceeding.
But the hon. member aimed at something more than preventing any clandestine importation of slaves,—he aimed at a general power of legislating for the colonies; and this was the commencement of a system of interference on the part of this country, which was to effect a change conformably to the views of the hon. gentleman, but destructive of the whole tenure of property. It was unnecessary for him to give any opinion, at this period of the discussion, upon the right which the Parliament of this country possessed to legislate for the colonies, in matters of
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internal regulation; but the possession of a right, and the exercise of it, were two distinct things. If the right were possessed, undoubtedly it would not be fit to exercise it, without a strong case of necessity; without a due regard to the feelings of persons who were interested in it; and above all, without a due regard to that security and sanctity of private property, around which our constitution and our laws had thrown the impenetrable shield of their protection. If the measure of a registry of slaves be the best expedient that could be devised to prevent the clandestine importation of slaves, why not, in the first instance, propose to the colonies, under a recommendation from the colonial secretary, to pass a law to that effect themselves? What occasion was there for any great haste? Why not wait to see what they would do in the first instance? Why irritate their feelings by passing such a law here unnecessarily? They have delegated to them the power of legislating for themselves. That power cannot be interfered with (to concede for the sake of argument the question of right) without some imputation upon their own conduct, and without giving occasion for much dissatisfaction and discontent. Could it be necessary to risk all this? The purpose may be effected in a better way: if it should be found that they will not adopt the recommendation; if their sincerity with respect to the abolition should be doubted;—why, then it may be time enough to stand upon the right, and insist upon carrying the object into effect. There would then be some foundation for this extravagant proceeding, and the House would find its own justification in the necessity of the case: but as the case stood, without any parliamentary evidence of the existence of the evil—without having ascertained whether the legislatures themselves will do, of their own accord, that which the House is required to do for them offensively and injuriously; it would be highly unwise for the House to go the length that the hon. gentleman had proposed: it was not necessary for the purpose which the hon. gentleman professed to have in view, and if it was necessary for other purposes, surely it became the House to look upon it with some suspicion, and to consider its probable effect upon the general interests of the colonies, which had been established by the Parliament of this country, at the best period of its history, and continued during a

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period of two centuries. These were considerations not to be overlooked, not to be sacrificed to the wild and indigested theories of those who seemed to be exclusively occupied in the general emancipation of the negroes. The House would not disregard the moral duty while they were endeavouring to benefit the one description of persons, not to do a vital injury to the other. As the Bill, however, could not be proceeded upon this year, he would, for the reasons which he had stated, move as an amendment to the motion of the hon. gentleman, "That a committee be appointed to inquire whether any clandestine importation of slaves into the colonies had taken place since the Abolition Act."
Mr. Protheroewas not only desirous of promoting by every means the great object of the entire abolition of the Slave-trade, but he was even desirous of lending his support to the plan which his hon. friend had now brought forward. But while he said this, he owned he was also a good deal struck with what had fallen from an hon. gentleman who spoke last. It became the House, in a business of consequence, not to proceed with any undue haste. Did his hon. friend think that it would be possible to proceeed through the Bill in the present session, and that an affair of so great interest to the colonies should be decided on without affording them an opportunity of expressing their sentiments? He was not very sanguine, however, in his expectations, that the colonial legislatures would adopt this measure; and it was the less likely because the measure was brought forward here, as they would consider it an infraction of their rights. He was willing to allow that the Legislature of the parent country had a paramount right to legislate for the Colonies; but the exercise of that right ought to be determined by the combined consideration of the importance of the object, and the possibility of its being effected. He hoped his hon. friend would move for the appointment of a committee, that the result of their labours might be laid before the House in the next session.
Sir John Newportsaid, if the lateness of the session was prejudicial to the consideration of the Bill, it was equally unfavourable to the formation of a committee. What would the committee do? They would prepare a Bill, which would lie over from next session to the following. He deprecated the proposed delay, and thought that this blessing ought to be conferred on
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these unfortunate individuals at as early a period as possible. In all the colonial legislatures the members must be guided by the feelings of the people whom they represent, and the imperial legislature ought to interpose its authority in a case of this consequence.
Mr. Marryattthought, injustice to themselves and the colonies, that the House ought to have a legislative foundation to act on. He considered the committee from which this measure proceeded, as by no means the safest guides for the House. By their construction of the Abolition Act and our Treaties with Spain and Portugal, which had been sent to all commanders of vessels, numerous captures had been made of vessels belonging to those countries: and our Government had been obliged to pay Portugal 300,000 l. for vessels unjustly captured, and Spain was claiming two millions of dollars on the same account, which he had no doubt we should be obliged to pay. This was brought on the country by the abolitionists taking on themselves official authority, without being in official situations. It was not only a loss of money, but a loss of national honour, and we owed it to the African Institution. He thought the African Institution had not dealt with candour by the public—they had published only the documents in their own favour, but had withheld other documents which were of a contrary description. He would instance the unfairness of suppressing a letter from the governor of Sierra Leone, for eight years, which had lately come out. In the publication of the late mission of the late unfortunate Mungo Park, they had given statements with a view of establishing the increase of the domestic industry of the natives of the country round Sierra Leone, which when properly explained would bear no such construction. They had obtained reports from all the governors on the coast of Africa in answer to questions respecting the progress of agriculture and domestic industry among the natives since the abolition, stating that there had been none whatever. But all these reports were suppressed. This was hardly fair. He did not impute any unfair motives to the body of the African Institution; but he contended that they had not had sufficient time for the consideration of all the subjects before them, and that they had entrusted these matters to individuals who had not dealt with candour towards the public. The arguments in favour of clan-

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destine importation, derived from the comparison of returns in the island of Trinidad, were by no means conclusive, as the old returns were extremely defective. He could say that no less than 51 estates had been abandoned in Trinidad for want of negroes to cultivate them. The negroes had decreased in number in that country. In Grenada the same thing had taken place. A poll-tax was laid on the negroes of that island; and from that tax it appeared that the number in 1808 amounted to 26,109, and in 1813 only to 22,565. It had been contended that no amelioration had taken place in the condition of the slaves since the abolition; but he could say that a great amelioration had taken place in the island of Grenada, the colony with which he was best acquainted, where before the abolition the slaves worked day and night, and were divided into gangs, as on board of ships but this practice had been abolished. The expense of the returns in Trinidad had been enormous, and the proprietors of slaves had been put to a great deal of unnecessary trouble. It had been said, that without such a registry as that proposed, no man could prove his freedom; but every man who resided in the West Indies could have no difficulty in proving his freedom. It was no uncommon thing for slaves to run from one island to another, where they gave themselves out as free men: this description of people would be protected by the proposed measure. A man who was really free, took out a passport when he left a place, and it was impossible then to molest him. Registers of the sort proposed would be of use to criminal and run-away slaves, but of no use to innocent people. A good deal had been said about colonial rights:—he was not now disposed to deliver an opinion on the subject, but he knew what opinions had been delivered on the subject during the American war. The Act of the 18th Geo. 3, renounced the right of raising money in any of his Majesty's colonies, without the consent of the assemblies of these colonies. This Bill was in effect a Money-bill; for it would operate as a tax on the people. We ought to recollect, that by persisting in the question of right we lost America. We ought to recollect, also, that the same object might be attained another way. If we did as the hon. gentleman wished us, we should only be raising up a stone wall to break our own heads against. We had only to prohibit the leading any money
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to any colony which did not agree to such a register as that now wanted. If we acted as the hon. gentleman recommended, we might perhaps light up a flame between the mother country and the colonies, which would one day be deeply deplored. He hoped the hon. member would withdraw his motion for the present.
Mr. F. Douglascondemned the traffic on any grounds as immoral and abominable, and trusted that no opportunity would be lost of ameliorating the condition of the slaves. He was strongly in favour of the motion; he felt as anxious as any individual for the safety of our colonies; but saw no danger that could result to them from the regulations proposed. It would appear extraordinary to all Europe if we should now, out of delicacy to our own colonies, abstain from fulfilling the intention of the Act of Abolition.
Sir Samuel Romillythought it was deeply to be lamented, that so long time should have been suffered to elapse before the supplementary measure of his hon. friend had been brought forward. The establishing a registry of slaves, and declaring all persons not found in the list to be free men, was the only way by which the illicit trade in slaves could be prevented. It was nothing more than establishing a registry of real property, and securing slaves to their owners, in the same way as it would secure to them their cattle. He lamented that the Act for the Abolition had scarcely at all tended to ameliorate the condition of the negroes. It was only in Jamaica that free men of colour were now permitted to give evidence in civil causes. In all the British colonies, it appeared, that any man not of a white complexion was presumed to be a slave, and any man who stole his certificate from an unhappy-black who had procured his freedom, stole from him his liberty. Every black man was in all these islands primâ facie a slave, unless he was able to show that he had obtained his freedom; and it was even common for negroes to be seized, and sold, to pay their prison fees. All, therefore, that the measure would effect was, to enable these unhappy people to prove themselves free when they were so. The Parliament of this country, when it imposed laws on the colonies, had found, as it ought, that they had been implicitly obeyed. The assemblies, who thought that a British governor ought not to interfere with the colonial laws between the whites and their slaves, ought to be con-

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vinced of their error. If such notions as the legislative assembly had presumed to entertain,—that the killing of a slave was only to be punished by a fine of 18 l. yet continued,—they could not be too soon undeceived. The hon. and learned gentle man then proceeded to reply to all the objections of Mr. Marryatt, and concluded with observing that the measure recommended was not even one of experiment; as a registry of slaves had been established at Trinidad, St. Lucie, and the Isle of France. He commented on the cruelties that had been proved to have been committed, by the flogging of negroes in the severest manner; and, alluding to the execution of a planter some time ago for the murder of his slave, when the governor was obliged to call out the militia to prevent him from being rescued, he asked what the House must think of such a deplorable state of society, and whether they could go home that night and sleep with tranquillity, if they did not unite to adopt a measure that must improve it.
Mr. Barhamdeclared he would go as far as any man for emancipation. He thought the measure proposed both important and excellent; and might even be much improved in time. He wished a ground was laid for the proceeding by a previous committee He thought the title of the Bill assumed the fact that there still were illicit importations of slaves; and this was a circumstance well worth inquiring into; otherwise the registry of slaves as now proposed, would be so incomplete as not to be of any use. He denied the truth of the contents of a pamphlet, issued under the sanction of the African institution, and which they appeared to have fulminated as their manifesto. A committee of inquiry into the condition of the slaves would be highly desirable and judicious. But as to the motion before the House, he regretted that he could not consistently vote for it.
Lord Castlereaghagreed with his hon. friend who spoke last, that it was extremely desirable to know the extent of the evil which was meant to be cured. He thought it highly proper to ascertain whether any illicit traffic was continued or not. His Majesty's ministers, having pledged themselves to facilitate every measure that would tend to abolish the Slave-trade, must stand pledged to support such a measure as that now proposed. He was, however, afraid of the delusion that might prevail in the colonies against
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it; and that it would, therefore, if precipitated, be attended with danger, and fail in its object. If there was not virtue enough in the people of Jamaica to second such a measure, what good could be hoped from it? On this ground, therefore, it ought to be made fully understood, before it should be carried into execution. The Crown had done much to facilitate the measure, and a very great support might be expected for it from all the islands, if we did not act with too much precipitation. It appeared to him that by pursuing the measure more deliberately, all disgust might be done away. He should think it most important if the colonies were to carry this measure into effect by their own legislature; this would be a great triumph to the cause. In order to give the colonies time to understand the measure fully, he trusted that his hon. friend would not object to any reasonable delay in carrying it through the House, instead of precipitating Parliament into an arrangement that might be attended with some evil consequences. There was every reason to hope, that all the European Powers would shortly join in stopping all the supplies from Africa; and he was sure that if we could persuade the colonies to pass this measure voluntarily, in the spirit in which it was meant to operate, that it would be far more beneficial than forcing upon them a law from Parliament, which they might try to circumvent. He trusted that his hon. friend would, for these reasons, pursue the measure with as much prudence as he did zeal; and though he was not disposed to support him in proceeding further with his motion this session, yet he firmly hoped it would be ultimately effectual.
Mr. W. Smithdeclared, that he felt great weight in what had been urged by the noble lord; but in his own opinion, there was no ground for the committee: it might do much harm, and could not do any good, as proof would be wanting of the illicit traffic. He thought much good might result from a general law that should be applicable to, and operate upon all the colonies at once. He had no hope of the colonies taking up the measure on their own account. The hon. gentleman, to support this opinion, read a petition from the free people of colour to the assembly in Barbadoes, in 1811, on their being debarred from giving evidence; it stated, that the lower orders of white people entered their houses and treated them with

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gross outrage and indecency, without their having any redress, because they could not give evidence. Yet this petition, requiring so humble a boon, was treated with the utmost contempt, and these free people were still in the same situation as when their petition was presented; this would show that the British parliamentary interference was, as the noble lord had termed it, the last resource. He had no wish to press the measure this session, but he felt convinced that it was the only one which would be found effectual.
Mr. Wilberforceshortly replied. He acknowledged that the session was so far advanced that it might not be advisable to press forward a measure which might meet with opposition in all its stages. He should therefore yield to the general wish of the House.
Mr. A. Brownewithdrew his amendment, after which leave was given to bring in the Bill.

SUBSIDIARY TREATIES.
On the Report of the Committee of Supply being brought up, and the Resolution being read for the grant of one million to Sweden,
Mr. Ponsonbyadverted to what he had said in a former session, as to this transaction ending in a positive pecuniary loss to Great Britain: he contended that the whole of his prophecy had been literally fulfilled.
Lord Castlereaghalso repeated what he had said at that time, namely, that it was extremely desirable to give a French possession to Sweden to secure her co-operation in the general cause. He had predicted the beneficial consequences that would result from this co-operation; and lie would contend, that all he had said had been as much fulfilled as the predictions of the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. W. Smithfelt it necessary to take up the subject in another view. He wished to know why we alone were called on to pay the million for the redemption of Guadaloupe, while the measure from which it had arisen had been for the general advantage. He alluded to the transfer of Norway, and said he was happy, to hear that the people of that country were by no means so dissatisfied with the change as it was at first believed they would be.
Mr. Ponsonbyrose to enter his protest against the Treaty concluded with the King of the Netherlands, by which Eng-
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land was bound to advance a sum of money for Russia. He could not see that any British or European object was connected with this arrangement. The engagements entered into in the present year were more expensive than any ever made before, though they were contracted at a time when the country was least able to bear such burthens.
Lord Castlereaghdefended the policy of the Treaty, and shortly repeated the arguments he had used on a former night, to prove the arrangements which had been made were neither unnecessary nor improvident.
The Report was agreed to, and a bill ordered.