Sitting of 27 May 1814

ROMAN CATHOLICS OF IRELAND.
Mr. Grattan, on presenting a Catholic Petition, spoke as follows:—Sir, I have the honour to present a petition from the Roman Catholics of the city and county of Cork, in favour of the Catholic claims; and I beg now, when the House is well attended, to repeat that which I said on a former day in the presence of a few members; and I say now, that I shall not bring on any discussion nor any ulterior measure on the Catholic Question at present, and my reasons are founded on present circumstances. I shall not enter into a detail of those circumstances; it is sufficient to say, that no proposition can under those circumstances be formed with any prospect of advantage, or with any other effect than to throw back the question, and to throw it back at a time when nothing but precipitation can prevent its ultimate success. I have the greatest expectation that the claims for the emancipation of the Catholics will prevail—I see great and substantial difficulties removed—Iwill pursue the cause—I will pursue it with ardour, and in the way which appears to me most practicable, and at a time which appears to me most seasonable. My opinion is, that any further proposition at the present time would be an injury to the Catholics; and I have formed this opinion after consulting the members of this House, with whom I usually act on this subject. Speaking of their opinion, I must advert to a mis-statement in the public papers, in which I am made to allude to opinions supposed to be entertained by noble persons belonging to another place. I did not state their opinion—I did not allude
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to it—I stated only the opinions of the members of this House with whom I act on this question—they are now, I believe present; and I beg to say, that I am backed by their opinion in declining to bring on any further discussion of the Catholic question at present—He then moved for leave to bring up the Petition.
On the question being out,
Sir J. C. Hippisleyexpressed his concurrence in what had just been said, deprecating precipitation. No final determination could be satisfactory on so important a question, unless preceded by the most deliberate investigation, the necessity of which was still more increased by existing circumstances. It was not his intention to enter into these circumstances; but he thought it necessary to notice, that the Catholic Board was permanently sitting in Dublin, and, in fact, was become a permanent parliament, levying taxes on the Catholics of Ireland. He reprobated their conduct in appealing to the Cortes of Spain, as a most pernicious step. From whom did they appeal? From the well-known justice and liberality of this country; holding it up, by that means, in a character which it did not deserve. He wished the measure to be adopted which he had before recommended, and that as complete a collection of the necessary papers should be made as possible. Any proceeding, he contended, must lie over till next year. He had not heard whether the right hon. Gentlemen opposite intended to interfere with the Catholic Board; but it was certainly their duty immediately to suppress it. After the holidays, he should move for further papers that had come to his knowledge, in addition to those he had already moved for.
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.

CORN LAWS.
Colonel Carew presented a petition from the farmers of the town and county of Wexford, in favour of the projected alteration in the Corn Laws.
Sir Frederick Flood, in support of this petition, said, that a great part of the agitation out of doors had been excited by the speeches of a right hon. Gentleman whom he had in his eye (Mr. Rose); which he would find, however much he intended it, were not likely to add to his popularity—(a laugh.) He had consulted, he said, others more knowing than himself on the subject; and he found, that those gentlemen who opposed the measure did

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not really understand it He complained of an impudent paragraph in some of the papers, denying that Ireland was entitled to a preference; but the interests of Ireland, he contended, were closely connected with this country. Ireland had produced our first general and soldiers, and had contributed, in a very large proportion, to the defence and glory of this country. Was that country, then, not to be encouraged, in preference to foreigners, particularly as the two countries now formed one united empire, and were one in strength and in interests? The object of this, and of every other country, ought to be, to be independent of foreigners in the great articles of subsistence. We ought to promote our own agriculture and industry; and such, he contended, was the object of the measure. In proportion as they encouraged the agriculture of Ireland, they would diminish the price of the quartern leaf.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. John Smithpresented a petition from the town of Nottingham, signed by 10,000 persons, against the proposed alteration of the corn laws; which was also ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. Moorepresented a petition to the same effect from the town of Coventry; setting forth the sacrifices and sufferings of the manufacturing part of the community for several years past; to which they patiently submitted, in the hope that the return of peace would remove all their difficulties. He said, that the petition was signed by 9,000 of the inhabitants, convened at a public meeting, to consider the Bills on this subject before parliament. He begged to assure the House, and particularly those gentlemen who had lately schooled an hon. member for holding communication with his constituents on this subject, that this petition from Coventry did not proceed from any previous suggestions of his; but was the direct and natural emanation of their own just feelings, to which he unreservedly subscribed, lest the price of bread, the first necessary of life, should be increased; and of this, his opinions had been testified to the House, by the uniform opposition which he had given to the measure. Mr. Moore entreated the attention of the House to the very reasonable, respectful, and dispassionate petition, which he held in his hand, and which, however vitally important to the wants and relief of the people,
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only prayed the temporary postponement of legislative interference, until another session, in order to give a breathing time, as it were, for the benign influence of peace on the markets; and, he said, this prayer would be found the more reasonable, when the House adverted to the long and manifold sacrifices which the people had made for upwards of 20 years, on the fair hope and reasonable expectation, which the House itself had uniformly and constantly held out to the people, that the approach of peace would relieve them from taxes, and ameliorate their condition in every other respect. Mr. Moore said, if the House now proceeded to the adoption of these measures, which had produced such universal alarm throughout the country, he feared the people would feel at once disappointed of all their fair expectation of relief to themselves and their families, and resign themselves to despair. Their burthens, he said, had been very great; but their resignation and cheerfulness, which the world had witnessed, had been most exemplary, believing all these burthens to be indispensably necessary for the honour, the security, and the defence of the empire;—but now, only one short month, under the benign influence of restored peace, had elapsed to reduce the price of the first necessary of life, and a proceeding was instituted again to raise the price to the war-rate! Whether this was correctly so or not, the people believed it: and their apprehensions could not fail so to influence his feelings, as pointedly to deprecate all further interference.—No class of his Majesty's subjects, Mr. Moore said, had undergone greater privations and made greater sacrifices during the war, than his constituents, believing them to be necessary and unavoidable—but, the season of promised relief being arrived, he trusted the House would realise the full measure of all their assurances to the people, by that solid and substantial diminution of their pecuniary burthens, for which the public faith and honour had been so long, so solemnly, and so unequivocally pledged.
The Petition was supported by Mr. Butterworth, and ordered to lie on the table.

IMPRESSMENT of SEAMEN.
Lord A. Hamiltonpresented a Petition from the ship-owners of the ports of the Clyde, praying, that the mates of ships of 50 tons and upwards may not be subject to

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impressment. His, lordship wished to know from some of the gentlemen belonging to the Admiralty, whether the orders of the Admiralty for impressment were generally given; as he understood there ware complaints of much partiality being exercised with respect to different places.
Mr. Bennetwished to know whether the impress service was still continued on the Thames.
Mr. Finlay, in seconding the petition, said, the subject was deeply interesting to those parts of the country from which the petition bad proceeded; and he hoped some measures would, be taken to prevent any further proceedings.
Lord A. Hamiltonsaid, as no answer had been given to his enquiry, he should move, after the recess, for a copy of the orders of the Admiralty. Should this proceeding be disagreeable, the right hon. gentlemen would have themselves to blame for it. He understood that great partiality was exercised as to some ports.
Mr. W. Dundassaid, he was certainly justified in remaining quiet on the subject till he had ascertained these circumstances, rather than in giving any supposition of his own on so delicate a question. He should certainly enquire.
Mr. Finlaycontended, that it would be a great object to have the practice converted into some specific law which would bear equally on all, and which all might know. The object of the petition was, to prevent the masters of vessels of 50 tons being exposed to be taken by captains of his Majesty's ships, contrary to the spirit of the practice.
Mr. W. Dundassaid, they were only protected while on board; and might, according to the practice, be taken when on shore.
Mr. Bennetrepeated his question respecting the impress service on the Thames.
Mr. Barhamexpressed his astonishment that no answer had been given to this question. If this practice were persisted in, there would be an end to all the functions of the Commons. They must, he contended, have an answer; and he hoped that the gentlemen, by consulting together, would be able to give the information required.
Mr. Hornerthought that the treatment which had just been received from the right hon. gentlemen opposite, was not such as the House was accustomed to. When questions had been twice put by
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two hon. members, and two persons in office, who should be able to answer them, were in the House, it was not usual for questions so put to be so received. It was contrary, at least, to the courtesy of the House, as far as he was acquainted with it.
Mr. W. Dundasinsisted, that it was entirely new, in the practice of the House, to ask questions not relative to the subject of debate. The question of the hon. member (Mr. Bennet) had no relation to the Petition of the noble lord. He (Mr. Dundas) was not to be frightened by menace or big words into giving an answer, this was a new parliamentary course.
Mr. C. W. Wynncalled to order; for the purpose of preventing, what appeared to him, angry discussion.
Mr. W. Dundaswould repeat, that he thought this way of putting questions, a new parliamentary mode of proceeding He would, however, answer, that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bennet) was perfectly misinformed.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, that nothing was more parliamentary, and nothing more convenient, than this way of putting questions; as it often prevented unnecessary discussions.

ARMY EXTRAORDINARIES.
The House went into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. Arbuthnotmoved that the sum of 3,350,132 l. 4s. 10 d. be granted for defraying the ordinary expences of the army.
Mr. Bennet, in a voice scarcely audible in the gallery, made inquiries as to the meaning of some of the items in the estimates of the year. He asked, what was the reason of the grant proposed to lord Burghersh of 1,000 l.? There were an hundred persons who would have been glad of the mission to the Austria army without putting the Country to any expence. The father of lord Burghersh had been employed in several lucrative offices; and there could be no reason for giving the noble lord an extraordinary remuneration.
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid, that lord Burghersh had been pitched on as a proper person for the mission in which he was employed, and that there could be no doubt bat that he had executed it. A thousand pounds had been advanced by the government for his extraordinary expences, for which he would afterwards account. It was the usual practice in such cases; and the circumstances of the person himself, or the situation of his father, they had certainly no right to take into consideration.
Mr. Bennetwished to know, whether the payment of the extraordinary expences officers employed in these missions had been customary on former occasions?
Mr. Robinsonsaid, that lord Burghersh had been subjected to expences, during the latter part of his mission, not to be paralleled on any former occasion; owing to the difficulty of procuring horses for the conveyance of his baggage; the allied army being then in a hostile country.
Mr. Goulburnstated, to satisfy the hon. gentleman as to the practice of government towards officers employed on special missions, that it was the constant rule to indemnify those gentlemen for their extraordinary expences; and for the purpose of defraying, these charges, a sum of money was usually advanced. Of this there was an example in the case of general Hope, in the same estimates; who, having been sent on a special message to the Prince Royal of Sweden, received 1,000 l. of which he was to account for that part which might not have been expended by him. The same was done with respect to all officers of similar rank employed in similar missions.
Mr. Huskissonwished to know what would be the amount of the army extra-ordinaries of the current year? As he understood it, five millions had been already taken on account.
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid, that what the amount of the extra ordinaries of the year would be, it was not possible to say. It was not five millions which had been already taken on account, but three millions, to which the sum then demanded was to be added; which would make the whole taken on account 6,250,000 l.
Mr. Tierneywished for some explanation as to the mode of voting the sum required.
Mr. Long, in answer, stated, that it was not for the services of the current year, as his hon. friend (Mr. Huskisson) and the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney} seemed to conceive, that the present vote was proposed; but for the extraordinary expences of the last year. The nominal amount of the extraordinaries for the last year was 22 millions; bat of this 2½ millions were to be deducted, which had been applied to the regular services of the army. This arose from the circumstance, that all bills drawn by the commissary general were ranked under the head of army extraordinaries.
Sir John NewportWished to know the purpose of the grants for sums paid by
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general Sontag, and on account of sir I. Brock.
Mr. Goulburnstated, that when, during the revolutionary war, Holland was occupied by the French troops, several Dutch officers had taken refuge in Eagland; to whom an allowance was made through general Sontag. When Holland became free, it was signified to these officers that the pension would be discontinued; but, as many of the pensioners were without the means of returning to their own country, it was resolved to advance one year's pension to them for that purpose; which was the item alluded to. As to sir Isaac Brock, when that gallant officer died, he had not been invested with the order of the Bath which had been granted to him. His relatives, however, being desirous that all possible honours should be paid to him, wished that the arms of the Bath should be placed on the tomb voted by parliament. The item alluded to was the amount of fees paid to the officers of the order.
Sir J. Newportwished to call the attention of the government to the Irish adjutants of militia, who (he knew not why) were not placed on an equality, in point of pay, with the same officers in the English militia. He hoped that, in the half-pay arrangement, the case of this class of officers would be considered.
Mr. Peelsaid, the disparity of the pay of these officers had not been overlooked; and that there existed a disposition in the government to put them on a footing of equality.
The vote was then carried.
On the motion of Mr. Lushington, the sums of five millions and one million were then voted to provide for Exchequer Bills outstanding and unprovided for.

GRANTS TO LORDS LYNEDOCK, HILL, AND BERESFORD.
The report of the committee on the Message of the Prince Regent, relative to the grant to lord Lynedock, was received and agreed to, and leave given to bring in a Bill accordingly. The report on the Message respecting lord Hill was brought up. On the question that the resolution of the committee be agreed to.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, he was sorry to have to make any observations respecting the proposed grants in the thin state in which the House then was. He was happy to have prevailed with his Majesty's ministers to consent to tender the annuity per-

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petual; but he thought that it was, in the case of lord Hill, still inadequate to the support of the dignity to which it was attached. In the case of lord Lynedock, there was a paternal estate of some amount, which went to the support of the dignity. Lord Hill had no advantage of this kind, and being one of 13 children, of whom five had distinguished themselves in the service of their country, and one of whom had lately died leaving seven children, could expect no addition to his fortune from his family estate. The pensions granted to meritorious officers were much reduced since the union with Ireland. Before that time, when officers were made peers, it was customary to vote them 2,000 l. a year from the English Exchequer, and half as much from the Irish. This was the case in the instance of admiral Rodney, who was at the time supposed to be opulent. Lord Hill had served the country from his earliest youth—in Toulon, in Egypt, and in Spain; and he hoped the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Bathurst) would consent to a postponement, as he should not propose any alterations in the grant in the thin state in which the House then was.
Mr. Bathurstlamented that the observations of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wynn) were not heard by more members. He thought the apportionment of pensions to officers, on account of their private circumstances, a matter of great delicacy. The House, however, should be informed, for its satisfaction, that the amount of the grant proposed to lord Hill had been fixed with the consent of his family, although their moderation should not prescribe limits to the liberality of the House.
Sir John Nicholisaid, the peerage was the reward for the service, and the annuity the means of supporting it. Two thousand a year seemed utterly insufficient. Under the peculiar circumstances, the matter was worthy of farther consideration.
Mr. C. W. Wynnwas sure there was no expence this country would bear with so much pleasure, as the providing for those who had procured by their skill and valour such great public benefits. He instanced the cases of lords Rodney, St. Vincent, and Duncan, who had grants both on the English and Irish establishments.
Mr. Babingtonspoke in favour of an increase; which, in his opinion, would not be too much if extended to 5,000 l.
Sir James Mackintoshalso spoke in favour of an enlarged grant. He was of opinion,
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that grants given in reward for merit, and in support of dignity, should be sufficient to enable the receivers to occupy as distinguished a rank in society as those held who inherited fortunes from their ancestors.
Mr. Wynnthen begged Mr. Bathorst to consent to a postponement; which the latter objected to, as he had no authority to give such consent, and as an addition to the grant would be possible in another stage of the Bill.
The Speakergave his opinion, that it would be disorderly to introduce any increase crease of the grant in the progress of the Bill, without a new Message, Committee, and Report.
Mr. Bathurstthen consented to a postponement. The consideration of the Report, as also the Report on the Message respecting lord Beresford, was fixed for Wednesday; to which day the House adjourned.