Sitting of 28 April 1814

GENERAL AINSLIE.
Sir Robert Heronexpressed a wish to lay before the House duplicates of certain letters which had been received from the West Indies with respect to those transactions in the West Indies which had within a few days become the subject of conversation in that House. He was not present on Monday, when the conduct of general Ainslie, relative to these transactions, had been animadverted upon; but he lamented the censure, and deprecated any decision upon the character of an officer high in his Majesty's service on mere rumour or ex parte statement. His object was correspondent with justice, in endeavouring to remove, by the production of these papers, any injurious impression which the censure or charges alluded to were calculated to produce upon the public mind. He could not, indeed, allow the character of a distinguished officer to be sullied by a mere impeachment without evidence. The charges advanced against this officer were not, he hoped, brought forward upon light ground. For himself he would say, that if this officer, or any person in authority, were found to oppress those whom he was bound to protect, that officer or person should never find a defender in him. But it happened, as he understood, that several documents respecting the case had been intercepted or lost, in their conveyance from the West Indies; and it was therefore wished, with a view to the elucidation of general Ainslie's conduct, that duplicates of the letters received by Mrs. Ainslie upon the subject should be laid before the House; with which wish he (sir Robert) now proposed to comply.
The Speakerobserved, that such a proceeding was inadmissible. It was competent for any member to move for the production of any papers that he thought proper; but no member could, of his own mere will, lay any papers before that House. The hon. baronet might, however, go on with the statement of his case, if he had any motion in view.
Sir R. Heronstated, that from the letters he had alluded to, it would appear that the flogging which seemed to form the chief ground of complaint was inflicted upon a run-away slave, who was a Frenchman by birth, and who had been guilty of theft.
Mr. Creeveyconsidered the hon. baronet's
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perseverance in this sort of statement as quite irregular, unless he meant to terminate in some motion, because the hon. baronet (sir H. Mildmay) who had originally brought the business before the House, would otherwise be prevented from replying.
Sir R. Heronsaid, that he did not wish to press the matter farther at present; but he hoped that that House and the country would suspend its judgment upon the charges against general Ainslie, until the whole of the case were investigated, and its merits fully ascertained.
Sir H. Mildmaythought it right to correct an error in the statement of the hon. baronet, for he had brought forward no charges whatever against general Ainslie; but having seen statements in the public papers, containing the most serious charges against the conduct and character of that officer, he felt it his duty to put certain questions, and to move for the production of documents in that House, with a view to the elucidation of those charges.

SLAVE TRADE.
Mr. Rose moved for leave to bring in a Bill for allowing ships seized in the Slave Trade and condemned, to be registered as British ships.
Mr. Whitbread, although he saw no minister in his place, took this opportunity of the mention of the Slave Trade, to express a hope, that in the pending congress a decisive declaration would be made by all the allies against the continuance of this nefarious traffic; and that this declaration would be followed up by efficient acts on the part of each of those allies; at least, that the utmost influence of this country would be used to promote this desirable and desired end. Of this opportunity he thought it proper to avail himself, to state his wish upon the interesting subject alluded to, because it might be the last opportunity that would offer in due time; although the right hon. gentleman might not be enabled to make him any answer respecting it.
Mr. Rosesaid, that he had no authority to make any answer to the hon. gentleman's question upon the subject referred to.
Mr. Whitbreadanticipated that the right hon. gentleman had no authority upon the subject; but as the right hon. gentleman had opportunities of communication with ministers, he thought it right to state his wish and opinion, in the hope that it would be communicated, and have some effect;

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for which he was the more anxious, as he happened to know that some persons were actually preparing, in the hope and contemplation that they would be allowed to resume this abominable trade.
Mr. Rose's motion was agreed to.

THE LATE ACTIONS AT TOULOUSE AND BAYONNE.
Mr. Fremantle, in consideration for the friends and families of those gallant men who had so unavailingly and lamentably fallen in the late actions at Toulouse and Bayonne, thought it right to ask what steps had been taken by our ambassador in France, by the British commissioners attached to the allied armies, or by the government at home, to send intelligence to our army under lord Wellington, of what took place at Paris from the 31st of March to the 12th instant.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad no doubt it would be found that no practicable steps had been left untaken either by the English ambassador, by the commissioners alluded to, or by the government at home, to send the earliest intelligence of the events at Paris to the army alluded to.
Mr. Fremantledid not consider the answer of the right hon. gentleman as satisfactory. He wished to know the date at which the several dispatches had been transmitted to lord Wellington.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdeclared, that he could not at present precisely state the dates required; but the hon. gentleman might make a motion upon the subject if he thought proper.
Mr. Fremantlethought it proper to move for copies of any papers or documents transmitted by the English ambassador or military commissioners with the allied armies to the English army in France, from the 31st of March to the 12th instant, with regard to what occurred in France, together with the dates of the same.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersuggested an amendment, by the addition of "or by his Majesty's government in this county."
The motion with the amendment being read,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexpressed his conviction that it would be found that every possible step had been taken to transmit that intelligence, the delay of which had occasioned the shedding of so much valuable blood. Nothing, therefore, remained for these melancholy events, but unavailing regret.
Mr. Fremantledisclaimed the intention of casting any imputation upon either the British ambassador, our commissioners with the allied armies, or the government at home; but he felt it due to the families of those who had so gallantly fallen, to shew that nothing had been left undone which ought to have been done, to prevent such wanton sacrifices. The consolation was small, but still it ought to be administered.
The motion was agreed to.

SINKING FUND.
Mr. Grenfell, pursuant to notice relative to this subject, began by expressing his regret that what he had to say on a topic of such great importance had not fallen to the task of a more competent person, as it was known to be one on which a considerable difference of opinion existed. He begged the House distinctly to understand, that his sole reason for noticing the subject was, that it might receive not only their most attentive consideration, but that of the public at large. The clause to which he should particularly allude, was that introduced in the original Bill of 1786, by the late Mr. Fox, and which was acknowledged by the late Mr. Pitt to have been a masterpiece of the ability of its great and enlightened author. The subject, however, was so familiar, that any details on the nature of the clause were perfectly unnecessary; yet it might be expected that he should enter somewhat at length, into the mode and practice of carrying the Act into execution. The Act of the 26th of the King laid the foundation of the Sinking Fund; a measure not only the most clear and regular in its operation, but the most powerful, of any that was ever devised in support of the finance of this country. Nothing, therefore, could be farther from his intention, than to offer any opposition to the measure itself, or its progressive routine; but if the ideas he should suggest were duly considered and adopted, he was convinced that fresh vigour might be given to the excellent system. The hon. gentleman here gave an outline of the nature of the Act, and observed, that the uniform and uninterrupted operations of the commissioners had had the effect of accumulating hundreds of millions in their hands. The mode they adopted was this: they had employed agents and brokers to lay out certain sums of money, at regular periods, in the 3 per cents. At the passing of the Act in 1786, they applied their

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quarterly sums either to the paying off redeemable annuities, which might be above par, or to the purchase of otters below par, at the market price. But the clause to which he alluded, was framed in the contemplation that a period would arrive when another and more advantageous mode might be adopted of laying out the money. It authorised the commissioners to advance this money by way of loan to any persons with whom such contracts of government might be made. This great financial machine, if it might so be called, was thus calculated to produce vast and absolute savings to the country. Yet the whole of the money had hitherto been applied to the purchase of stock for the extinction of the national debt; and it only remained to enquire which of the two modes would be most beneficial to the nation; that of continuing to purchase stock, or advancing the sums thus at command towards any future loan? He would briefly state the arguments which he had heard on both sides of the subject. The amount of the Sinking Fund to be applied in the present year for the purchase of stock is 12,000,000 l. The loan may probably be 22,000,000 l. He would merely take it at the amount of the loan of last year, at which time the amount of the Sinking Fund might be estimated at 45,000,000 l. He wished only for an assumed average. Now it must be admitted, that to throw into the market 22 millions of stock, as was the case in November last, and then to employ agents to go and buy 12 millions, must keep up the price of the funds more effectually than if these twelve millions were withheld from the market. If government want 22 millions, and their own commissioners have 12 millions to lay out, would it not be better to take this latter sum on their own account, than to let it go into the market? Certainly the present mode was a very circuitous way of going to work; and it appeared to him, that not only ministers, but persons who had never gone into the stock-market at all, were more likely to form an unprejudiced and distinct opinion on this subject, than the most practical stock-brokers among them all. The price of the article which we call stock must depend upon the proportion of the supply in the market, and the leaving of an excess of public debt for a time; but withholding the 12 millions of the Sinking Fund, would operate as an advantage, rather than otherwise, by the effect it would have on the
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prices of the funds. To place the subject in a clear view, suppose a gentleman of 12,000 l. a year wants to raise 10,000 l. he goes among the money-lenders to raise it. They tell him "you must go into the market and buy 22,000 l.; but get a person to take 12,000 l. of the amount, and then you obtain your wants, and hand back the rest" The hon. gentleman pursued his illustrations, by citing cases of commercial bartering, and drew the inference, that the knowledge of the times when purchases were to be made on behalf of the Consolidated Fund, must naturally have the effect of raising the stocks at those periods. By way of contrast, he urged, that after a loan had been contracted for, the effect produced by the sale of omnium, in depressing the funds, was exactly in the inverse proportion as they were raised by the purchases of the commissioners. As fast as these commissioners pour their 12 millions into the public reservoir, the loan contractors take it out and carry it to the Exchequer; but by the mode which the clause in question gives them the power to adopt, they could carry it there at once. He could but very imperfectly state the arguments he had heard against this mode. He had been asked what were the arguments in favour of changing the system? Why, the profit that would arise from its operation. Were gentlemen aware what this profit would have been upon the last loan? He might say that the average premium of 20 per cent. upon the last loan is less than what would have arisen by the alteration in question, as the loan itself might have been reduced from 22 to 10 millions. The hon. gentleman concluded with, saying, that he need not trouble the House any farther on a subject so self-evident. His object was only to invite them to give it all due consideration: he should therefore merely move for papers which would tend to throw additional light on the topic. The hon. member concluded by moving, That there be laid before the House an account of the money expended by the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt, in the quarter ending the 5th of April inst. together with the amount of the capital stock bearing interest; as well as accounts of the average price paid for every 100 l. of the said capital, &c.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the observations which he was prepared to offer, were much abridged by the manner in which the subject had been

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treated by the hon. gentleman. The returns of the amount of the National Debt at the close of each year would have been very nearly the same, if the course recommended by the hon. member had been taken, as they had been under the present system. By this he meant, that the excess of the loan raised in each year over the sums appropriated to the extinction of the National Debt, would have been the same. In this respect, then, there would be neither an advantage nor a disadvantage in adopting the suggestions of the hon. gentleman; but the question which they had to consider was merely this:—whether, in the course of years, it might be expected to produce a better effect on the monkey-market? It might be impossible to show that the present system was superior to that of which the hon. gentleman was the advocate. He did not know any way in which they could positively decide the question; but he held the advantages which resulted from a gradual and constant application of a sum of money to the purchase of stock, to be superior to those offered by the plan of the hon. gent. If, for instance, the sum of 100,000 l. were thus expended on every quarter-day, the effect produced at the end of the year would be more considerable than that to be looked for from a sum, equal to the whole amount of such purchases, being so disposed of at once in the market. There might be occasions on which it would be proper to have recourse to the plan of his hon. friend: when it appeared that there was any unfair advantage attempted to be taken by a combination of those disposed to bid for the loan, then it might be right for the minister to avail himself of that alternative which was afforded him by the law. There were other circumstances in which it might be his duty to do so. When a great rise of the funds was anticipated, for instance, or when the loan was so small that the commissioners could advance the whole of it, in these cases it might appear that he ought to go to them; but he could not admit that it ought to be his uniform practice. He begged to reserve to himself the free liberty of taking that course which according to circumstances should appear the best. He, however, admitted that the subject well deserved, the most attentive consideration, and thought the hon. gentleman entitled to the thanks of the House for bringing it forward.
Mr. S. Thorntoncould not approve of
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the course recommended by the hon. gentleman. As a friend to the Sinking Fund, he was unwilling that any material deviations from the present system should be countenanced. That had enabled us to bear up, while our National Debt was augmented from 261 millions to 900 millions; and but for that, we should long ago have been at the mercy of our enemies. He gave every credit to the hon. gentleman for the clear and lucid manner in which he had brought the subject forward, but differed from him in his conclusions. The hon. gentleman, in noticing the agitation of the funds, observed, it was a very extraordinary circumstance, but the funds were seven per cent. lower now than they were before Buonaparte's abdication was known.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerin explanation of this circumstance observed, that the depression of the funds was caused by the expectation of a loan, the amount of which had been considerably exaggerated.
Mr. Martinspoke in support of the present system.
Mr. Grenfell, in reply, said he had been misunderstood. His plan, instead of injuring the Sinking Fund, would add to the means of the commissioners for extinguishing the National Debt. He had asked one of the contractors for the last loan if 12,000,000 l. of the 22,000,000 l. had been taken from the commissioners for paying off the National Debt, whether he would have been disposed to bid for the remaining 10,000,000 l. The answer of the gentleman had been (and he was authorised to state it), I would not only have bid for it, but I would have given a higher price for it, had the loan been but 10,000,000 l. instead of 22,000,000 l.
The motion was agreed to.

REPORT ON THE ACT RESPECTING THE BOUNTIES, &c. ON SUGAR.
Mr. Brogden reported from the committee of the whole House, to whom it was referred to consider of an Act made in the present session, c. 24, for continuing certain bounties and drawbacks on the exportation of sugar from Great Britain, and for suspending the countervailing duties and bounties on sugar when the duties imposed by an Act of the 49th year of his present Majesty shall be suspended; and who were instructed to consider of the duties on sugar, coffee, and other articles, the produce of Martinique, Mariegalante, Guadaloupe, Saint Eustatia, Saint Martin, and Saba,

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imported into Great Britain; the Resolutions which they had directed him to report to the House; and the same were read, and agreed to by the House, and are as follow:
1. Resolved, That the Schedule annexed to an Act made in the 45th year of

Prices of Brown or Muscovado Sugar, at which Drawbacks and Bounties are payable.

Drawback to be allowed on Sugar of the British plantations in the same state in which it was imported; and Bounty on refined Sugar, being ground or powdered sugar.

Bounty on refined sugar called Bastards, or refined Loaf Sugar broken in pieces.

Bounty on other refined Sugar in Loaf complete and whole, or Lump duly refined.

If the average price of Brown or Muscovado Sugar, published in the London Gazette, shall not exceed 45 s. the cwt.

20 s. the cwt.

25 s. the cwt.

36 s. the cwt.

If it shall exceed 45 s. and not exceed 58 s.

20 s. the cwt.

20 s. the cwt.

34 s. the cwt.

If it shall exceed 58 s. and not exceed 60 s.

18 s. the cwt.

18 s. the cwt.

31 s. the cwt.

If it shall exceed 60 s. and not exceed 62 s.

16 s. the cwt.

16 s. the cwt.

27 s. the cwt.

If it shall exceed 62 s. the cwt.

-

-

-

14 s. the cwt.

14 s. the cwt.

24 s. the cwt.

All the above Prices are to be taken, exclusive of the Duties of Customs paid or payable on the Importation of Sugar.

2. That it is expedient that sugar, coffee, and other articles the produce of Martinique, Mariegalante, Guadaloupe, Saint Eustatia, Saint Martin, and Saba, imported into Great Britain, be subject to the like duties, drawbacks, bounties, rules, regulations, and restrictions, as similar articles of the British plantations.
Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the said Resolutions; and that Mr. Brogden, Mr. Arbuthnot, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Lushington, do prepare and bring it in.

IRELAND — REPORT ON THE ACT RESPECTING JUDGES' SALARIES.
Mr. Brogden reported from the committee of the whole House, to whom it was referred to consider of the Act of the parliament of Ireland, 40 Geo. 3, c. 69, to enable his Majesty to grant annuities to the Lord High Chancellor, and to the Judges of the Court of King'-bench, Master of the Rolls, Judges of the Courts of Common pleas and Exchequer, Judge or Commissary of the Court of Prerogative, the Judge of the Court of Admiralty, the Chairman of the Quarter Sessions of the county of Dublin, and Assistant Barristers of the several other counties, on the resignation of their respective offices, and for other purposes therein mentioned; the Resolution which they had directed him to report to the House; and the same was read,
the reign of his present Majesty, by which the drawbacks and bounties on sugar exported from Great Britain were regulated and ascertained, be repealed; and that the following Schedule be substituted in lieu thereof, except with respect to raw sugar, for a time to be limited, viz.
and agreed to by the House, and is as follows:
Resolved, That his Majesty be enabled to grant, under certain conditions to be limited, unto any person who may or shall have executed the office of Chief Justice of the Court of King's-bench, Master of the Rolls, Chief Justice of the Common pleas, or Chief Baron of the Exchequer, in Ireland, respectively, an additional annuity of 800 l. Irish currency to each of such persons; and to any person who may or shall have executed the office of Puisne Judge of the Court of King's-bench or Common-pleas, or of Baron of the Exchequer, in Ireland, an additional annuity of 600 l. Irish currency to each of such persons; such annuities to be granted to them respectively, after their resignation of such offices respectively.
Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the said Resolution; and that Mr. Brogden, Mr. Peel, Mr. William Fitzgerald, and Mr. Lushington, do prepare and bring it in.

PETITION OF THE HIGH BAILIFF OF WESTMINSTER.
A Petition of Arthur Morris, bailiff of the liberty of the dean and chapter of the collegiate church of St. Peter at Westminster, in the county of Middlesex, being offered to be presented;
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, by

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command of his royal highness the Prince Regent acquainted the House, that his Royal Highness, having been informed of the contents of the said Petition, recommends it to the consideration of the House.
Then the said Petition was brought up and read; setting forth,
"That all precepts for the election of citizens to serve in parliament for the city and liberty of Westminster, are directed to, and returned by the petitioner; and that, by the report of a committee of the House, appointed to enquire into and examine the nature of the office of high bailiff of Westminster, and the duties and burthens incident thereto, it appears that the net annual income of the office is wholly inadequate to bear the necessary expences of such elections, and which, until the period of the petitioner's appointment, were uniformly defrayed by the respective candidates; and that, by the refusal of such payment at the contested elections in 1806 and 1807, the petitioner was placed in a situation of unexpected difficulty and risk, and sustained a clear actual loss of 1,269 l. 10 s. 2d. and therefore the same committee, considering the peculiar hardships under which the petitioner laboured, recommended to the House, that some certain provisions should be made for defraying those expences, as appears by such report, printed the 11th day of June 1811, and to which the petitioner begs leave to refer; and that, in pursuance of the said report, an Act was passed the 9th of July following, whereby it was enacted, that the expences of hustings and poll clerks should be defrayed by the candidate or candidates at all future elections for the city of Westminster; and that, in consequence of the refusal of the two members returned at the last election for Westminster, in October 1812, to comply with the provisions of the said Act, on the ground of their not being candidates at such election, the petitioner caused an action to be commenced against the hon. lord Cochrane, one of such members, who having suffered judgment by default to go against him, the petitioner obtained a verdict from a jury, under the direction of the sheriff, for 225 l. being one moiety of the expences proved by the petitioner to have been incurred by him in and about such election, and which sum has been received by the petitioner; and that the petitioner was under the necessity of bringing his action for the other moiety against sir Francis Burdett, the other member returned,
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wherein the petitioner was non suited, and which nonsuit has been confirmed, after solemn argument, in the court of King's-bench, on the ground that sir Francis Burdett, not having interfered, directly or indirectly, in the conduct of such election, or sanctioned the same otherwise than by taking his seat, could not be considered a candidate within the meaning of the said Act; and that the petitioner has thus incurred a further loss of 225 l. amounting, with his former loss of 1,269 l. 10 s. 2d. to the sum of 1,494 l. 10 s. 2d. exclusive of very heavy costs, making a total of not less than 2,000 l.; and that such expences have fallen upon the petitioner in the due and zealous execution of writs for the return of members to the House, and not in consequence of any incorrectness on his part, but of the inadequacy of the act of parliament to protect him against the novel and unexpected manner of eluding the provisions thereof; and that the just and benevolent intentions of the House to afford relief to the petitioner have thus been frustrated, leaving him still a sufferer to an amount exceeding the whole net profits of his office during the seven years he has held the same, and more than his private fortune is equal to bear; and that it was the intention of the petitioner to make application to the House early in the present session, but was not able to obtain the sanction of the lords commissioners of his Majesty's Treasury until after the time limited for receiving petitions for private Bills had elapsed; and praying, that leave may be given to present a Petition for the purposes aforesaid."
Ordered, That leave be given to present a Petition as desired.
A Petition of the said Arthur Morris was accordingly presented and read; containing the same allegations as the last preceding Petition; and praying the House to afford him that remuneration for expences incurred in its service, which he trusts have been satisfactorily proved by the report of the committee before whom the principal part of the foregoing allegations were substantiated by evidence.
Ordered to lie on the table.