Sitting of 21 April 1814

CATHOLIC PETITIONS.
General Mathewrose to present two petitions to the House; one from the Roman Catholics of the country of Tipperary, and another from those of the populous and opulent town of Clonmel; both of which equally insisted on the right of the petitioners to a complete emancipation from their civil disabilities. He should make the usual motion, that the Petitions be received and laid on the table. When he had presented Petitions similar to the present, which he had done for the last eight years, he had always professed his readiness, if by any accident the patriotic and eloquent member for Dublin was prevented from bringing before the House the question of emancipation on the general Petitions, to move it himself on the Petitions which he then presented. The whole face of affairs throughout the would had so much changed since the last session, that he no longer thought it proper to adopt that line of conduct; and he thought that it would be improper that the Catholic Question Should be discussed during the present session. Though his opinion was changed as to the conduct to be pursued by the course of events, it remained the same as to the question itself, and he remained a warm friend to full and free emancipation. By the very extraordinary changes which had taken place during the last year, his holiness the Pope had fortunately been relieved from thraldrom, to the delight of every civilized man; and not only was he restored to liberty, but to his ancient possessions, to his former splendour, and his imperial chair at Rome, surrounded by his reverend cardinals—[a laugh]—with whom he might consult on the steps to be adopted with respect to the Catholics of Ireland. Thus had the time occurred for strengthening and consolidating the empire; and if his Majesty's ministers had these objects in view, they should

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lose no time in opening a friendly communication with the Pope.—[A laugh.]—He (gen. M) had been informed, and had every reason to believe his information correct, that his holiness was warmly disposed to take any steps, not entirely incompatible with his religious principles, for strengthening the British empire, by bringing the differences between the government and the Catholics of this country to an amicable termination; having beheld with admiration that part which Great Britain had taken in the glorious struggle on which had depended, not only the liberty of Europe, but the existence of the paper chair. The Catholics should, therefore, take the golden opportunity offered, and forbear again to agitate the question of emancipation, until themselves, or the government, had entered into some communication with the Pope. Not only had Providence given the happy opportunity, but it had provided the man by whom the communication might be made; he meant the marquis of Wellington. If that great man were appointed lord lieutenant of Ireland, he was convinced that every Irishman would be delighted to receive such a ruler; and the place, being the second in the empire, was due to him alone. From the natural magnanimity of his disposition, no occupation could be more delightful to him than to conciliate his countrymen, and thus to render the empire not only invincible, but invulnerable. The gallant general then proceeded to remark, how galling it was to the Irish Catholics, that they were the only men excluded from the constitution to which they were so main a prop. It was strange, he said, that this country, once deemed the most liberal, was now the only one where civil disabilities, on account of religion, existed. The once bigotted Protestant state of Holland, by an article (134) in its recent constitution, had determined that all existing religions should be equally protected, and the members of all had an equal right to hold offices and charges. In another constitution, the most superb monument of human foresight that had ever been erected, which had been drawn up by the greatest statesman perhaps who had ever existed, the prince of Benevento, and which had been sanctioned by the senate of France, who would have full power to cause it to be obeyed—he had met with an article which gave him the greatest pleasure, in which it was declared that
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freedom of worship, under all religions, was guaranteed, and that the ministers of all were to be treated alike. In another article it was said, that all Frenchmen were admissible to all offices alike. After all these examples of liberality, could any be found in this country so bigotted as to refuse emancipation to five millions of good and loyal subjects? He could not believe it; especially after the very honourable conduct of his Majesty's ministers in the discussion of the last session, and especially of the noble lord not then in the House (lord Castlereagh). Indeed, he (gen. M.) had changed his opinion of the ministers altogether, with whom, in former times, he had differed on every question, except the votes of thanks to lord Wellington. He had then, as he had thought, for the good of his country, "left no stone unturned to assist their downfall and accelerate their overthrow." In these endeavours it was a truism to say that he was not successful. Of this ill success he was very glad. There was no man but would acknowledge that they had saved civilized Europe from bondage; exalted their country to an eminence, on which it was the admiration of surrounding nations; and brought the world from a state of universal war to a state of universal peace, by putting an end to the evil consequence of the mad and extraordinary ambition of Buonaparte. After such happy effects from their exertions, he (gen. Mathew) called on them to believe his brave and insulted countrymen; they had well laid the abutments; they should proceed with their hallowed work, and crown the glorious arch, or their work was of no avail. It was a maxim in state policy, that nothing was done whilst any thing remained to be done; and if the ministers neglected the present opportunity, it would be evident, from their past conduct, that it arose not from any incapacity, but from sullen and wilful obstinacy. But if they endeavoured to conciliate the Catholic body, there would be no possibility that any person could act in opposition to them; and if it came to his vote, he should be glad not only that they should remain at present at the helm, but that they should be ministers for ever. Yet, until the long-wished emancipation, he should continue to watch their conduct, though not with a prejudged, yet with a jealous eye.
What he had stated as to the Pope, he wished to be understood to have derived

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from good authority, as would be found if any communication were opened with his holiness. What he had said, he also wished to be understood as flowing from himself, without any consultation with any of the Catholic body; as the liberation of the Pope and other events had happened since he had left Dublin. As to the Catholic board, of which so much had been spoken and written, he was convinced, from having frequently attended their meetings, that there did not exist a more liberal and enlightened set of men in any country; and he said, if the House should not think proper to agitate the question during the present session, or if the member for Dublin (Mr. Grattan), and other members on that side of the House, should feel the impropriety of bringing it forward at the present time, that the Catholic body would readily submit to the delay. The gallant general concluded, after declaring his independence of any party, by moving that the Petitions be read.
The petitions were then read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, the Roman Catholic people of Ireland, again approach the legislature with a statement of the grievances under which they labour, and of which they most respectfully, but at the same time most firmly, solicit the effectual redress; their wrongs are so notorious and so numerous that their minute detail is quite unnecessary, and would indeed be impossible, were it deemed expedient; ages of persecution on the one hand, and of patience on the other, sufficiently attest their sufferings and their submission; privations have been answered only by petition, indignities by remonstrance, injuries by forgiveness; it has been a misfortune to have suffered for the sake of their religion, but it has also been a pride to have borne the best testimony to the purity of their doctrine by the meekness of their endurance; and that the petitioners have sustained the power which spurned them, they have nerved the arm which smote them, they have lavished their strength, their talent, and their treasures, and buoyed up on the prodigal effusion of their young blood the triumphant ark of British liberty; the petitioners approach then with confidence an enlightened legislature: in the name of nature they ask their rights as men; in the name of the constitution, they ask their privileges as subjects; in
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the name of God, the ask the sacred protection of unpersecuted piety as Christians: are securities required of them? they offer them, the best securities a throne can have, the affections of a people; they offer faith that was never violated, hearts that were never corrupted, valour that never crouched; every hour of peril has proved their allegiance, and every field of Europe exhibits its example; and that the petitioners abjure all temporal authority, except that of our sovereign; they acknowledge no civil pre-eminence, save that of our constitution; and for their lavish and voluntary expenditure, they only ask a reciprocity of benefits; separating, as they do, their civil rights from their spiritual duties, they humbly desire that they may not be confounded; they render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, but they must also render unto God the things that are God's; their church could not descend to claim a state authority, nor do they ask for it a state aggrandizement; its hopes, its powers, and its pretensions, are of another world; and when the petitioners raise their hands most humbly to the state, their prayer is, not that the fetters may be transferred to the hands which are raised for them to heaven, they would not erect a splendid shrine even to liberty on the ruins of the temple: in behalf then of five millions of a brave and loyal people, the petitioners call upon the legislature to annihilate the odious bondage which bows down the mental, physical, and moral energies of Ireland, and (in the name of that Gospel which breathes charity towards all) they seek freedom of conscience for all the inhabitants of the British empire; may it therefore please the House to abolish all penal and disabling laws, which in any manner infringe religious liberty, or restrict the free enjoyment of the sacred rights of conscience, within these realms."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

PRINCESS CHARLOTTE OF WALES.
Mr. Halseysaid, that as reports had been spread respecting the intended marriage of her royal highness the Princess Charlotte of Wales, he wished to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether he had any communication to make to the House on this most important subject?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that it would be improper for him to say any thing on this delicate subject, as he had no commands to make any communication

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respecting it. The communication would, of course, be made without delay, as soon as such a step became proper.
Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that it was extraordinary, that the important step which had been determined on, should first have been communicated by a foreign prince to his subjects, before it had been noticed to the House of Commons. In this, as on other occasions, they had been treated with great disrespect. Taking it for granted that the sovereign prince of the Netherlands had not told an untruth, he hoped that when the communication was made (which of course must be made, with a view to the necessary pecuniary arrangements), it would be accompanied with a recommendation to adopt such legislative provisions as might secure her Royal Highness from being taken out of the kingdom and detained from it, in a manner which might be extremely detrimental to the interests of the kingdom, and which might occur without such enactment.

THE PRINCE REGENT'S DEBTS.
Mr. Bennetsaid, he had understood that 13,000 l. had been paid out of the Droits of Admiralty to general Hulse, an officer of the Prince Reagent's household; which was one of three sums, amounting in all to 39,000 l. that had been paid out of the same funds towards the liquidation of the Regent's debts. He wished for some explanation of this transaction from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he felt no difficulty in answering the question of the hon. gentleman, though on a subject somewhat delicate; but which had been brought before the House at a former time, on the occasion of the passing of a Bill for regulating the Prince Reagent's household. In that Bill, which had passed into a law, it was provided that a certain annual sum should be set aside for the removal of certain incumbrances under which his Royal Highness laboured. There were, however, some of these of so urgent a nature, that it had been deemed advisable to pay the sum of 39,000 l. out of the droits of the Admiralty for their removal, and this sum was to be repaid by instalments to that fund. He did not know the exact amount of the debts outstanding; but he understood they would be liquidated in somewhat between 3 and 4 years.
Mr. Tierneyfelt considerable pleasure, on the whole from the communication of
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the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, if he rightly understood him, said that the prince's debts would be liquidated in between three and four years. They therefore could not amount now to more than 150,000 l. As to the repayment of the 39,000 l. to the droits of Admiralty, by instalments he did not see what security there could be for this; as the funds out of which the repayment was to be made was to determine on the demise of his Majesty.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrepeated, that he knew not the exact amount of the outstanding debts; but that by the monies applied by the Act, and some arising from the duchy of Cornwall, he understood they would be paid in three or four years. The fund, he allowed, was determinable on a contingency not pleasant to contemplate.

NORWAY.
Mr. Whitbreadwished to ask another question; to which he hoped, for the sake of humanity, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be able to give a satisfactory answer. It was perfectly well known, that the Norwegians, who had been conveyed by a treaty to the crown of Sweden, were indisposed to the Swedish government—nay, determined not to submit to it. It had been said, that the British government had given such orders as would put a stop to the importation of those provisions into Norway, without which the Norwegians could not subsist; hoping thus to effect by starvation what could not be done by force. He wished to know whether this report was true?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the subject of Norway was at present one of great delicacy; but that his Majesty's government was disposed to assist their allies, according to their treaties.
Mr. Whitbread. So, the starvation system has been adopted. (No reply followed.)

PETITION OF MR. WRIGHT AGAINST THE CLERGY RESIDENCE BILL.
A Petition of William Wright, of Bridge Court, Westminster, in the county of Middlesex, gentleman, was presented and read; setting forth,
"That, under the sanction of an Act of Parliament, made and passed in the 43rd year of the reign of his present Majesty, intituled, "An Act to amend the laws relating to spiritual persons holding of farms, and for enforcing the residence of spiritual

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persons on their benefices, in England," the petitioner commenced divers actions against clergymen for the recovery of part of the penalties, to the payment of which they had by their own neglect become liable; and to petitioner was induced to believe that himself, or any other person who might sue for the same, would find that encouragement and protection, to which, by the laws of this country, he was led to believe himself entitled; and that the petitioner never had any desire, or ever sought, to imprison the persons of the clergy, as bath been imputed to him, he being well aware that he was prohibited from so doing by the 17th section of the said Act, it being therein provided that no execution shall be levied against the body of any spiritual person for any penalty, if the same can be recovered within three years by sequestration of the benefice; and that the representations made by the clergy derogatory to the character of the petitioner as a Christian and a gentleman, of his having entrapped them, nourished or engendered their offences, or kept back their licences or notifications, he most solemnly declares are untrue; so far from which, the petitioner did at great trouble prepare a faithful abstract of all the statutes in force respecting residence, and added thereto forms of notification, and petitions for licences of non-residence, which, at his own personal expence, he caused to be printed and distributed gratis, not only to the clergy of the dioceses wherein he acted as secretary but also to the clergy of other dioceses; and that he did also at his own personal expence, from the month of April 1806 to the month of April 1813, cause advertisements to be inserted in the provincial newspapers, and circular letters to be written to the clergy, for the purpose of acquainting them with the necessity there was for them to renew their licences, if the cause which created their existence still continued, and to request others of the clergy to deliver the notifications required by the said Act; and that so conscious is the petitioner of the rectitude of his conduct, that he invites the whole body of the clergy against whom he has commenced actions to adduce a single case in evidence at the bar of the House of his ever having entrapped any of them, nourished or engendered their offences, or kept back either their licences or notifications; and that the petitioner had commenced actions for penalties against clergymen in twenty different dioceses,
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and therefore his researches are not confined to the four dioceses in which he had been employed as secretary, but his information has been derived, not only from an extract published by authority of the right honourable the House of Lords, which was introduced to his attention by a dignitary of the church, who complained that such a publication should be permitted by government, as it held up a large proportion of the clergy prosecution, but also from many long, tedious, and expensive journeys, which the petitioner has made, in order to elucidate the subject; and that, since the petitioner has commenced actions for penalties under the before mentioned Act, not only curbs and associations of the clergy have been publicly convened, for the purpose of defeating the petitioner in his legal claims, which combination the petitioner humbly submits is contrary to the known law of the land, but also several of the clergy have caused friendly actions to be commenced against themselves, in order, if possible, to defeat the petitioner's vested rights; and the petitioner is informed that some of them have consulted counsel whether they could not avoid the penalties to which they were liable, by a resignation of their benefices and retaking them; and that the petitioner feels perfectly satisfied that the House will not lend its aid to deprive him of a right so sacred as that which is vested in him by a recent Act of the legislature, framed by the united wisdom of both Houses of Parliament, and that no measures will be adopted by the House to abridge him of the penalties under the said Act, upon the ex parte reports which have been communicated to the House; and that the petitioner has not only, by the means aforesaid, been put to a very considerable expence in putting the clergy in possession of the law of the land on the subject, and in obtaining the necessary evidence and information in support of his said actions, but has by their neglect, is not renewing their licences, sustained an annual loss of at least 300 l. during nine years in which he was secretary to four lords bishops; the petitioner therefore places himself under the protection of the House, and prays that the Bill to discontinue proceedings in certain actions already commenced, and to prevent vexations suits against spiritual persons, under an Act passed in the 43rd year of his present Majesty, may not in its present shape pass into a law, and that he may be heard, by

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himself or counsel, against the said Bill, and be allowed to produce such evidence as he may be advised, or that the House will be pleased to grant him such relief as to them shall seem meet."
Ordered, that the said Petition do lie upon the table.