Sitting of 22 November 1813

INSOLVENT FOREICNERS.
Sir Samuel Romillypresented a petition from certain foreigners confined in the Fleet prison, and in the King's-bench, praying that the benefit of the Insolvent Act should be extended to them. They hoped that the House would be the more inclined to view their case with favour, from the consideration, that they were the subjects of other countries, where they would not have been exposed to such severity of treatment. As he understood that the Act, passed in the last session, was to be suffered to expire, he perhaps owed some apology to the House for presenting a petition, claiming the benefit of an Act which was about to expire. He had really been surprised, at hearing that the Act was impossible to be carried into execu-
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tion He believed that it had not been tried yet, and that the first sitting of the judge appointed under it would be next Friday. He wished to know whether there had been any attempt to carry it into execution in Ireland? He had heard a great deal of the complex machinery of this Act, which made its execution impossible. He could not believe that the difficulties were so great as had been represented. As to what was called, the machinery of the Bill, it had been introduced by the noble and learned lord who originated the Bill. As his ideas, in this respect, had been acquiesced in by the very highest authorities of the law in another place, he had made no opposition to it. He felt, however, convinced, that there could not be any such faults in the machinery of the Bill, as it would not be easy for parliament to provide remedies for.
Mr. Lockhartsaid, that if he did not bring forward the Bill for the speedy discharge of the insolvent debtors, he thought it necessary to state his reasons shortly. He never had intended to repeal the present Bill; but he wished to give a concurrent jurisdiction to the quarter sessions, for the purpose of accelerating the object of it. He wished much that the Bill should be fairly tried; but he was afraid that he might be doing an injury instead of a service to those insolvent debtors who expected a speedy discharge, if he were to bring in a Bill now, which might not be passed in the present session.
The Attorney Generalassured the hon. gentleman, that there would be no time lost in considering how to relieve the insolvent debtors. He thought it was likely that this day would not pass without a motion being made by a noble lord in another place.
[Here the Speaker interposed, saying, it was not regular to refer to the supposed proceedings of the other House.]
The Attorney Generalthen observed, that he might be allowed to say, he was assured that, a measure affording speedy relief to the persons who were aggrieved by the delay under the present Act, was in preparation, and would be passed before the recess. For himself, he did not find that there was any thing objectionable in the principle of the Bill; and if time were given, he conceived it might be made a very, wholesome law. But he agreed that it was necessary to do something, immediately, and for that reason he

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was anxious that some temporary expedient should be devised and adopted.
Mr. Lockhartpostponed bringing forward his motion on the subject till Monday.

HELLESTONE ELECTION.
On the order of the day for considering the Hellestone Election Bill being read,
Mr. Horne(member for Hellestone) rose and said, he should feel it a dereliction of his duty to himself as well as his constituents, if he did not state his objections to the present measure. In doing so, however, he acted solely from the individual conviction of his own mind, without concert with any persons in or out of the borough. The borough of Hellestone had been long in possession of the exclusive right of sending two members to parliament; a right not arising out of any usurpation on the privileges of others, or in prejudice to them; but arising out of the law and constitution of the country, and standing on the same basis as the best and most sacred of our institutions, or as the right and authority of that House. It was natural, then, for the burgesses of Hellestone, and in some measure a duty incumbent on them, to make a struggle for the preservation of such a right. He was at the same time not insensible, that this privilege was the last which ought to be considered as private property; that it had high and important duties connected with it; and that if any gross abuse were proved in the discharge of those duties, it was then the business of parliament to interfere and strike at the root of the corruption, provided the municipal law did not reach the evil. It would, however, be the duty of the House to proceed cautiously, on the fullest evidence, and to take care that in aiming to secure the purity of election, they did not destroy that which was the foundation of it, the elective franchise itself. This Bill might form a precedent by which hereafter, in times of faction and turbulence, or of extreme corruption, rather the quality of the members returned, than the corruption attending their return, might be made the ground of similar disqualifications. Thus far his remarks were general: he would now proceed to apply them more particularly to the Bill in question. This Bill stood upon the ground of the special Report only, or of that and the evidence delivered at the bar of the House. Now the terms of the Report stated, that there had subsisted a certain illegal
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agreement between a noble duke and a majority of the members of the corporation of Hellestone, with regard to the return of members to serve for that borough. And he understood, that the committee had in this case inserted the word 'illegal,' purposely to exclude the word 'corrupt,' which they did not think applicable to the transaction. There were three views under which the subject might be viewed:—1. The nature and extent of the offence. 2. Who were the offenders. 3. The punishment. With respect to the first, the committee having decided that the agreement was illegal in its nature, this alone was a sufficient reason why it should not be referred to parliament; for if the transaction was illegal, there was a legal, remedy, and an adequate punishment for it: any thing more must be unjust. To go beside the law, would be an irregularity; to go beyond it, an act of oppression. But granting that the offence was great, and the punishment deserved, yet he would contend that it ought not to be inflicted on the present parties. If the majority of members of the corporation of Hellestone had offended, that was no just ground why the whole body should be disfranchised. The corporation acted as trustees for the borough; they were the organs and depositaries of its interest; an unnamed majority of them had abused their trust, and disregarded the interests of the inhabitants—ergo, what? Not that the offenders should be punished, but those against whom the offence had been committed, the people of Hellestone, who were the first persons that had suffered by this violation of the law. After again disclaiming any personal communication with those who were interested in the Bill, the hon. and learned gentleman concluded with expressing his decided disapprobation of it.
Mr. Serjeant Onslowcomplimented the last speaker on the delicacy and discretion with which, in the difficult situation in which he was placed, he had treated the question. But in all the arguments of the hon. and learned member, he was so unfortunate as to differ from him. The Report, indeed, stated, that the transaction was illegal; but it also went on to state, that it was one contrary to the law of parliament, and to the purity of election. If this then was not a case in which it was proper for parliament to interfere, he did not know what was. He also differed from the learned member, who seemed to

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suppose that this elective franchise was held by the corporation for the benefit of the people of Hellestone, but in his opinion it was held for the benefit of the people of England. But it was said, we had punished the whole body for the offence of the majority only. This, however, was unavoidable. We had pursued only the common course. It was not in a single instance, in the last election only, that the most unwarrantable abuses and corruption had taken place; but a regular system had been long pursued, by which the right and independence of election had been bartered away, to secure certain profitable exemptions for the town and borough of Hellestone. What then could be more just than to take away a right which was placed in such improper hands? From the whole evidence it appeared, that they never discovered the slightest anxiety to know what members were to be returned for them, but only to know whether the wages of their corruption would be paid. It did not follow because the offence was illegal, that the punishment annexed to it by law was adequate. It was the object of the legislature not merely to punish the offence, but to provide against the recurrence of it in future; and for this purpose he thought some such enactment as the present highly expedient and necessary.
The Bill was then read a second time.

Preamble
The first reading of the Clergy Penalty Suspension Bill (which was ordered to be printed) took place on the motion of the archbishop of Canterbury; who gave notice of his intention, if the prints were on the table, to move the second reading on Wednesday, for which day the Lords were ordered to be summoned.
Lord Holland presented petitions from the debtors confined in Chelmsford gaol, the gaol of the county of Berks, and certain persons, natives of foreign countries, confined in the King's-bench prison, praying relief; which were ordered to lie on the table.
His lordship also presented a petition from the debtors confined in the Isle of Man, praying relief; and took the opportunity of observing, that for a considerable period, although several Insolvent Acts had passed, yet these unfortunate persons had remained without relief. He understood that the local legislature of the Isle had passed an Act last year for the relief of the debtors confined there; but, unfortunately, it had not received the sanction of government.
Lord Viscount Sidmouthstated, that the Act for this purpose passed by the House of Keys had been officially transmitted to him to be laid before the Prince Regent in council. Upon reference, however, to the law authorities, the Act was found so extremely objectionable, that it could not be assented to; and an order in council, stating precisely the grounds of objection, was sent to the governor of the Isle of Man, with a recommendation for the local legislature to pass an Act free from those objections, which would be readily assented to. He believed that the House of Keys had not assembled since that period.
Lord Hollandobserved, that probably the House of Keys, like other Houses, would readily attend to the suggestion of the noble viscount.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.
The Lord Chancellor introduced a Bill for vesting in the accountant-general of the court of Chancery for the time being, and his successors, the property in that court, which found its way there in consequence of the burden thrown upon the court by the legislature, in sending them
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for arrangement the affairs of Canal Bills, Turnpike Bills, Parish Bills, and other speculations, which took up so much of the time of the court. He introduced a similar Bill last session, which passed that House; but, owing to the want of time before the close of the session, could not get through the other House. The object of it was, to prevent property of that description (the property of the suitors being already provided for), from vesting in the representatives of the accountant-general in future, and to take it out of the hands of the representatives of the former accountants-general; so that, upon the death, resignation, or removal of that officer in future, the property should immediately vest in his successor.
The Bill was read a first time.
The Lord Chancellor read a letter from sir Thomas Graham, acknowledging his high sense of the recent vote of thanks of that House; and a similar letter from sir J. Abercromby, relative to the vote of thanks for the capture of Mauritius.

MILITIA SERVICE BILL.
Earl Bathurstmoved the second reading of the Militia Service Bill. His lordship observed, that he felt it unnecessary to take up the time of the House by entering into an explanation of the conduct of ministers in bringing forward the present measure. It was scarcely necessary to remark upon the singular and admirable features of the war. Our successes,—the great battle of Vittoria,—the possession of the Pyrennees,—the advance into the enemy's territory,—were all sufficient grounds for persevering in the great cause which we had begun, and exciting and invigorating the resources of the country. If our successes had been inferior, even in this there would be much reason for continuing and increasing our efforts. While so noble a spirit had been raised in Europe, while such high interests were struggling in the North, it was not fitting that a power of the dignity and rank of England should not take a share worthy herself in the great cause of nations. But let the House look upon passing events; and if they had not then ground, let them find it in that which had occurred between the time when this Bill was introduced and the present moment,—that noble burst of patriotic feeling which had arisen in Holland, recalling old attachments, returning to ancient loyalty, renewing ancient habits, and friendships,

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and objects. It was hardly necessary to say a single word in justification of the principle of increasing the military and disposable means of the country. He would not take up the time of the House any further than in explaining the basis of the measure which he was to propose to them.
The mode of increasing the regular force had been frequently a matter of consideration with their lordships, and it appeared that the most valuable source was to be found connected with the militia system. The first step had been, to allow simple volunteering into the line: the present Act had a farther view, and it contemplated the service of the volunteer, both as a soldier of the line, and of the militia. It was proposed, that in every regiment where 900 men volunteered, three field officers-should be allowed to volunteer also; where six hundred, two; and where three hundred, one; but in any regiment whose number did not amount to the lowest ratio, if three-fourths of the whole volunteered they were also to have one field-officer. Where a sufficient number of field-officers did not offer, the right of appointment to devolve to his Majesty. These regiments were to be formed into provisional battalions, commanded by officers of the line, the officers receiving half-pay. Their lordships would scarcely regret, on knowing the nature of the militia, that those officers were likely to share in the liberality of the House. A great proportion of them were meritorious gentlemen, whose income largely depended on their appointments in the service, and who in the prospect of a peace saw before them only a painful diminution of their competence. He could not help thinking it fortunate that this measure allowed, if he might be permitted the term, an excuse for insuring to them the reward of their services. There were but few additional circumstances. One was, that militia officers thus serving should be equally with others subject to the usual forms of the line courts-martial. In the next place, no field officer of a provisional battalion was to have a higher rank than that of lieutenant-colonel: for, as it was the intention, that when acting in the field those bodies should always be under the command of an officer of the line, it might otherwise happen that the militia officer should be senior to the line officer. Another limitation was, that not more than three-fourths of any regiment should be
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allowed to volunteer. It might be objected, that there would be a hardship in prohibiting the services of men willing to come forward. To this the answer was, that in every regiment there was a proportion, and that nearly amounting to the proportion stated, of men who, from age or accident, were not fit to be exposed to the fatigues of, active service—men, who though equal to highly useful occupation at home, were better not hazarded lightly to a foreign campaign. He could not, however, impress it too fully on the House, that it was by no means within his ideas to break down the fabric of the militia. The establishment was of the highest importance: obvious as were its advantages from the original scheme, scarcely any man could have conceived the important uses of which it was subsequently found capable. It had formed among us a large and vigorous portion, of the national defence during the threat of invasion. In case of the attempt, to realize that threat, it would have, been found, doubtless, eminently, useful and trustworthy. It had rendered important services in the insurrection in Ireland, and in suppressing those similar disturbances which were partially felt even here. It had, in the last instance, conduced, to the strength of the regular force, and supplied the line with its finest troops. There was one service which it had rendered, and which, though it was not distinctly obvious at first sight, might be reckoned of no slight national import. It gave occupation to the higher orders of the country, for whom the necessity of occupation was most pressing, and its nature of the highest interest to the community. It generated popular and manly habits among them; it accustomed them to mingle among the inferior ranks of the state; it supplied them with an honourable exercise and honourable acquirements for the general protection; and if even those ends were not all ensured together, it at least drew them away from those pursuits, which, degrading and unhappy as they were, naturally assailed men of rank and fortune, and in corrupting them, corrupted the most influencing and important order of society. His lordship then proceeded to enumerate the other powers of the Bill. Among the rest, is provided for his Majesty's acceptance of the service of single companies, the officers being entitled to half-pay. These companies to be attached to the regiments of the

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line, or formed into battalions by themselves. In this case, the preferment would not suffer any obstruction; as the officer commanding the attached company would follow the order of the regiment, and those employed in the battalions of companies would of course not be in a condition to interfere with the regulars. The only objection which seemed to be taken to this measure was, that officers looking to permanent rank would naturally engage all they could to volunteer, and thus impair the usual demands of recruiting from the militia. The answer might be, that, as it was by no means intended to stop the usual recourse to the militia for the support of the line casualties, officers would have it in their power to volunteer still, as they had done previously. He expected the concurrence of the House to a measure which promised to be of the most signal use, and he would not therefore take up their time further upon the subject.
The Bill was read a second time.
Earl Bathurstsuggested, that as it was of importance to press the Bill without delay, the House might probably be induced to negative the commitment.
The Duke of Norfolkwas anxious that not the slightest obstacle should be thrown in the way of the progress of this Bill, which he thought it was essential to pass without the least delay.
The commitment was then negatived, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time tomorrow.