Sitting of 12 February 1813

PETITIONS AGAINST THE CLAIMS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS—FROM THE CLERGY, &c. OF CHICHESTER—ARCHDEACONRY OF LEWES—MAYOR, &c. OF GUILDFORD—DEAN AND CLERGY OF SARUM, AND ARCHDEACON, &c. OF WILTS—ARCHDEACON AND CLERGY OF SARUM—ARCHDEACONRY OF ESSEX—AND CHURCHWARDENS, &c. OF ST. LEONARD'S SHOREDITCH.
A Petition of the clergy and certain of the laity within the archdeaconry and diocese of Chichester, was presented and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners have understood that their fellow subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion have an intention of applying during the present session of parliament for the repeal of those acts which exclude them from holding certain offices and situations of power and trust; and that they must begin by professing their strong and steady adherence to the principles of that Revolution which placed his majesty king William on the throne of these kingdoms; and they desire clearly to express their opinion that every degree of toleration compatible with the security of the established Church ought to be granted without hesitation both to the Roman Catholics and to Protestant Dissenters; but they crave leave to adopt the very words' of that great and wise prince whom they have mentioned, who, though himself a zealous friend to civil and religious liberty, and a decided enemy to every species of persecution declared however openly, that "he could by no means agree to the repeal of those laws that tended to the security of the Protestant religion, since the Roman. Catholics received no other pre-
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judices from these than their being excluded from parliament and public employments; and that by them the Protestant religion was sheltered from all the designs of the Roman Catholics against it, or against the public safety; and that these laws could not be said to carry any severity in them against the Roman Catholics upon account of their consciences, being only provisions qualifying men to be members of parliament, or to be capable of bearing office, by which they must declare before God and man that they were for the Protestant religion; so that indeed all this amounted to no more than a securing the Protestant religion from any prejudice it might receive from the Roman Catholics;" and that the petitioners, after thus expressing their real sentiments, beg leave further to observe to the House, that even the strongest advocates for the repeal of the existing laws prfoess however not to wish for it unless in a way which should not be prejudicial to the established Church, which the petitioners humbly conceive implies a concession that it might be effected in some ways which would be prejudicial; they conceive also that in such a case they who wish for the repeal of existing laws are themselves bound, prior to any discussion of the subject, to point out specifically the securities intended to be offered, in order that the establishments which have been hitherto preserved by means of those laws shall not be endangered by the repeal of them; but they observe, with real concern, that nothing of this sort has yet been attempted to be pointed out; on the contrary, they beg leave to remark that one of the slightest and least important of those securities, which even Catholic states and princes have found it necessary to adopt against the intolerable doctrines and pretensions of the bishop of Rome, has nevertheless been formally refused, and declared to be inadmissible by the prelates of the Irish Catholics; and that the petitioners also beg leave to submit it to the consideration of the House, as an undisputed fact of history, that many of these doctrines and pretensions of the bishop of Rome are directly adverse to the well-being of every independent kingdom, and have been so found and declared to be by many states and princes who have professed the Roman Catholic religion; and that the petitioners are not aware that any of these doctrines or pretensions hare ever been

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renounced or disclaimed by any of the bishops of Rome; on the contrary, they find, in many late publications, some of which are supposed to proceed from high authority among the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland, the direct avowal, that the religious opinions of the Roman Catholics being unchangeable are applicable to all times; and that on these grounds the petitioners humbly conceive that the very same dangers which our forefathers were at so much pains to guard against, are still undiminished, and that the same precautions against them are still necessary; they therefore most humbly implore the House not to repeal those laws, nor to revoke those securities which our ancestors thought it incumbent on them to enact and provide for the stability and permanence of our civil and ecclesiastical establishments."
A Petition of the clergy of the archdeaconry of Lewes, was read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners beg leave humbly to represent to the House, that they are informed an application is intended to be made to parliament, to repeal the laws which render Roman Catholics incapable of holding certain situations of power and trust under government; and therefore with all humility, they request to express their firm reliance on parliament for continuing such restraints upon them as in its wisdom it may deem expedient, being persuaded that a full and unqualified emancipation would be inconsistent with the security of our civil and ecclesiastical establishment."
A Petition of the mayor, corporation, and several inhabitants of Guildford, Surrey, was read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners have long witnessed, with anxious concern, the repeated claims of the Roman Catholics to the right of enjoying full and unrestrained political power, but that, relying on the wisdom of parliament to resist such claims, they refrained from petitioning against them till they became apprehensive that their silence might be construed into indifference or even approbation; and that the petitioners are firmly attached to the cause of toleration in all matters of religious worship, and are influenced by no illiberal or bigotted spirit of exclusion or oppression, but rejoice to see all their fellow subjects possessing, as they now do, the right of
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worshipping God according to the dictates of their own conscience; but the petitioners cannot conceal that they consider the further extension of political power to their Roman Catholic fellow subjects would be destructive of the fundamental principles of the British constitution, and most dangerous to the religious and civil liberties of the Roman Catholics themselves, as well as of the Protestants, being fully persuaded that the admission of a foreign jurisdiction in spiritual matters, which foreign jurisdiction the Roman Catholics admit, will necessarily have great influence over them in civil and political matters; and therefore most earnestly praying the House, that the blessings and advantages of our present happy constitution may not be endangered by innovations and hazardous experiments, and that the House will maintain inviolable this essential principle of the British constitution, that the legislative and executive authority of this Protestant country should be administered only by a Protestant government."
A Petition of the dean and chapter of the cathedral church of Sarum;—two Petitions of the dean of Sarum, the clergy of his jurisdiction and the clergy of other peculiar jurisdictions, within the diocese of Sarum;—and a Petition of the archdeacon and clergy of the archdeaconry of Wilts, were also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, in common with the Protestant laity of this United Kingdom, sincerely and heartily rejoice in the toleration which has been granted to their fellow subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion, and should equally rejoice in the concession of any further indulgences, if any such are wanting, to make that toleration complete; and that they have been hitherto unwilling to increase the ferment created by repeated discussions on the claims of the Roman Catholics, but, apprehensive less further silence should be construed into acquiescence, if not approbation of their pretensions, they deem it their duty to express their alarm at the perseverance of the Roman Catholics in demanding unlimited admission not only to offices of high trust and power, but even into the legislature itself, under a monarchy and constitution fundamentally Protestant; because, by the unequivocal avowal of their own priesthood and most enlightened advocates, the Roman Catholic Church is still the same in its doctrines and discipline as at the time of the Refor-

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mation; because it still claims the same spiritual power, still arrogates the same infallibility, still considers all Protestants as without the pale of Christian communion; and, finally, because the members of that Church in these realms still acknowledge themselves subject to a foreign supremacy; and that, convinced that the Protestant succession to the throne, the liberty of the subject, and the safely of the established Church, vest on the same basis, and are inseparably connected, the petitioners do most humbly but ardently implore the House to maintain those laws and preserve inviolate those securities and bulwarks of our constitution in Church and State, under which this country, since the epoch of the Revolution, has enjoyed a degree of prosperity and happiness unknown to other nations, and unexampled in former ages"
A Petition of the archdeacon and clergy of the archdeaconry of Sarum, was also read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners beg leave, with all due respect and humility, to lay before the House their Petition, on behalf of the Protestant establishment of the United Kingdom, endangered, as they conceive, by the measure now under consideration in favour of their fellow subjects of the Romish persuasion; and that, under the due influence of that spirit of Christian charity, which is among the distinguishing marks of the true Church, they cannot possibly entertain the most distant wish to interfere with that perfect toleration which constitutes an amiable feature in the constitution of this country; but regarding, as they most certainly do, Protestantism to be an essential part of the British constitution, when, on looking into the page of history, they observe in what way the Church of Rome employed that power which it formerly possessed in this kingdom; and when they consider that the character of that Church, according to the declaration of its most enlightened advocates, is unchanged, and unchangeable, having been publicly and expressly told, that "if any one pretend to insinuate that the modern Roman Catholics differ in one iota from their ancestors, he either deceives himself or he wishes to deceive others;" they cannot contemplate, without the most serious apprehension, a restoration of power to those who stand solemnly bound by the canons of their councils, and their religious obligations,
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to employ that power, when obtained, to the destruction of our constitution both in Church and State; should it appear, however, to the House in its wisdom, that these alarming effects, which the petitioners cannot help anticipating, are not likely to result from the measure in contemplation, still, as the appointed ministers of the true faith in this land, they consider that they should be justly chargeable with a shameful dereliction of their sacred trust, were they not on this occasion to remonstrate, as they most respectfully do, against the surrender of those bulwarks by which, under Divine Providence, that faith has long been defended; and that, aware of the miserable confusions which would be the consequence of the established Church being deprived of that tolerant ascendancy, which equally prevents the unchristian conflicts of contending sects, and the overbearing jurisdiction of a foreign supremacy; and persuaded that every indulgence, consistent with the safety of a Protestant establishment, has already been granted to the members of the Romish Church, that more cannot, in their opinion, at least be done for them, without encouraging the growth of Popery, and exposing this free and enlightened country to the danger of those erroneous, intolerant, and slavish principles which have in former times been its miserable companions; they humbly, but at the same time most earnestly pray, that whatever measures in favour of our fellow subjects of the Romish persuasion political wisdom shall at this time deem expedient, (a subject on which the petitioners may not be fully competent to form a judgment,) that those judicious securities, by which the pure faith and worship of our venerable Church, the invaluable purchase of the labours, the wisdom, and the blood, of our pious ancestors, have, under the continuing favour of a gracious Providence, long been preserved, may, through the constitutional decision of the House on this important occasion, be handed down inviolate to our latest generation."
A Petition of the clergy of the archdeaconry of Essex, was read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners have viewed with much apprehension the several efforts which have been made for obtaining indulgences to persons of the Roman Catholic communion, even beyond what the wisdom of parliament has already granted,

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under the mild government of their beloved sovereign, and fearing that those efforts may be repeated, would humbly represent the danger which, in their opinion, would arise from farther concessions; and that the petitioners, knowing themselves fallible, presume not, on points of faith and doctrine, to fetter the opinions of other men, and would allow to all the utmost freedom in religious worship, but must deprecate any indulgences which may increase the means of propagating what the petitioners conscientiously believe to be error, and what, as ministers of the Gospel, and of the Protestant Church, they feel it their duty to counteract; and they conceive that it would be derogating from the sincerity and zeal of the Roman Catholics, to entertain a doubt of their continued endeavours to disseminate the principles to which they have shewn themselves so strongly attached; and that the petitioners fear not only their increase of error in religion, from the success of these efforts, but also great political danger; they have considered the civil establishment of this kingdom, as united, in its essential interests, with the national church, and must always feel serious alarm for both from those particular opinions of the church of Rome which are immediately connected with political tenets and practice, and which have, in times past, been found powerful instruments of policy, through their influence on the minds of their adherents; and that the petitioners are humbly of opinion, that the nature and tendency of these tenets remain unaltered, although their effects have been limited by the wise restraints imposed by the constitution of this realm, and, until they are expressly, and by authority, disavowed in principle, and discontinued in practice, the petitioners cannot but consider it highly dangerous to intrust any share of power, in framing or dispensing the law, or in conducting the government of the country, to the hands of their Roman Catholic brethren, who, while they demand the removal of every restraint or precaution against them, do not offer on their parts any correspondent concession; and the petitioners humbly conceive, that favour towards the Roman Catholics has been extended to the utmost limit of toleration in religion, and even beyond it, in the public patronage of one of their principal seminaries; and that the few remaining civil restrictions, of which they are impatient, are but the
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necessary safeguards of the constitution: and they therefore humbly, but earnestly, pray that the House will, in their wisdom, be pleased to continue those salutary limitations against the Roman Catholics, under which, by the protection of the Almighty, this nation has enjoyed the blessings of a pure religion and uncorrupt administration of equal laws, and a Protestant succession to the throne in the family of a monarch whom, both as their gracious sovereign, and as the zealous defender of their faith, the petitioners love and revere."
A Petition of the churchwardens, overseers, and inhabitants, of the parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch, Middlesex, in vestry assembled, was read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners observe with much concern and alarm the persevering efforts of the Roman Catholics to obtain admission to offices of trust and authority, both civil and military, and to the exercise of legislative functions; and that it is with unfeigned satisfaction they see their fellow subjects of the Romish Church freed from all pains and penalties on account of their religion, and in the full enjoyment of the blessings of toleration, but they feel it their bounden duty not only to "themselves but to posterity, to resist the endeavours of the Roman Catholics (notwithstanding the numerous concessions already made to them) to attain political power and legislative authority, and thereby to destroy that Protestant ascendancy to which the people of this country are indebted, under Providence, for the establishment of their liberties on a firm and solid basis, for the petitioners consider it as a fixed and unalterable principle of our glorious constitution wisely settled at the Revolution, that the legislative and executive authorities of this country can be safely administered by Protestants only; and that the petitioners regard the laws by which that principle is established, as no less sacred and inviolable than Magna Charta and the Habeas Corpus Act, and they implore the House to reject all applications for the repeal of those laws."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

SINECURE OFFICES BILL.
Mr. Bankesrose, pursuant to notice, to bring forward his promised motion upon this subject. He should not, he said, mis-spend the time of the House on this occasion, in detailing

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the grounds upon which this measure rested; a more appropriate opportunity would offer in a future stage for the full discussion of its merits. Although he had to address a new parliament, with a considerable accession of new members, upon this important subject, he could not doubt that the arguments in its favour would meet as favourable a reception as they had experienced from the last parliament, and that the present House of Commons would be found as solicitous for retrenchment and public economy as any of its predecessors. The main object of his Bill, the hon. gentleman described to be, to bring back offices to the principle of their original creation, namely, that those officers who had any duty to perform for the public, should receive the remuneration drawn from the public purse for that purpose, and that those offices to which no duty attached, namely, sinecures, should be gradually abolished. But he would take care to provide that those who had vested Tights should suffer no injury. His next proposition was to establish a permanent and certain fund for those meritorious servants of the public who might have derived reward from the sinecure offices which he called upon parliament to abolish. Thus his measure was meant to be wholly prospective. Following the same principles of reform which had been acted upon by Mr. Burke and Mr. Pitt upon similar occasions, and thus avoiding any innovation, he proposed to leave the rights and interests of the present possessors of the offices to which his Bill referred quite untouched, while he would endeavour to persuade the House to put an end to the further continuation of offices which were really a blot upon our system. As to certain offices in the law which his Bill was intended to regulate, he could not conceive it possible to defend an arrangement under which particular individuals received enormous emoluments, while all the duties of their offices were performed by deputies for a small remuneration. The hon. member concluded with moving for leave to bring in a Bill "for abolishing and regulating sinecures and offices executed by deputy, and for providing other means for recompensing the faithful discharge of high or effective civil offices, and for other economical purposes."
Lord Castlereaghdisclaimed any intention of opposing the motion of his hon. friend, or of entering into the discussion of its merits on the present occasion. But,
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in a future stage of the proceeding he should state fully the grounds upon which he felt it his duty to oppose his right hon. friend's proposition in the last parliament, and upon which he still felt himself bound to maintain the same opinion. He could not, however, let this opportunity pass by without stating his conviction, that the principle of reform pursued by his hon. friend on this subject was perfectly novel, and by no means in accordance with the principles acted upon in the regulation of public offices in former instances, cither by Mr. Burke or by his late right hon. friend, Mr. Pitt. This he should be prepared to show at the proper time. But there was one remarkable feature belonging to this measure, which he never could overlook, and which indeed must impress the mind of any man by whom it was fully considered, namely, that his hon. friend was not able to shew that his proposition would, in a pecuniary view, be productive of any saving to the public, while in a constitutional view it directly tended to trench upon the royal prerogative, and involved a very exceptionable innovation upon old established practice.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.

LOCAL TOKENS BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in proposing the committal of the Local Tokens Bill, observed, that the period to which he proposed to extend the power for allowing the circulation of Local Tokens, he was induced, upon farther consideration, to abandon. That period was the 1st of October, but he now meant to fix upon the 5th of July, because parliament might in that case make farther arrangements, should an adequate supply of Bank Tokens happen not to be forthcoming, which appeared by no means probable. Indeed, he had every reason to expect that the Local Tokens might, without any public inconvenience, be wholly dispensed with, at even an earlier period than the 5th of July; such was the improved prospect of the currency. As to the animadversions upon his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer, in consequence of his allusion to the probable necessity of a different measure upon the subject for Ireland, he thought it necessary to say a few words. It was but candour in his right hon. friend to express the inclination of his mind, in order that, if the measure he at the time of the expression contemplated, should really become necessary, no member

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might be taken by surprise. For himself, he hoped and trusted that necessity would not call for any difference between the two countries, however differently circumstanced upon this subject. At all events, nothing practicable should be left undone to avoid such a necessity. Indeed, as far as he had the power of influencing the circulating medium, he had always been most studious to provide for the accommodation of Ireland, and he should ever continue to be so. In pursuance of this solicitude, which he felt in common with his colleagues, it was intended to send a large proportion of bullion to Ireland, sufficient, he hoped, for its wants; yet, if the supply should prove inadequate, his right hon. friend reserved the right of providing for the evil.
Sir John Newportobserved, that ministers seemed to think it necessary to hold an undefined proposition over Ireland, while there could be no doubt of its wants as to circulating medium, and while no assurance was given that a sufficient quantity of bullion would be provided by government for the supply of those wants. It was in consequence of these wants, that the Commercial Company of Waterford applied some time since to the Irish government, soliciting either an adequate supply of silver, or liberty to issue tokens themselves for the accommodation of business; but the application was unsuccessful, although he could assure the House that the distress occasioned, and especially among the poor peasantry, by the scarcity of silver, was most severe. Indeed, the peasant who brought his bacon or other articles to Waterford, was obliged to return home with a check as payment, and which he was but too likely to lose, or obliged perhaps to go to market again to get his check changed. Thus were these poor people, to whom any government should look with peculiar solicitude, exposed to serious inconvenience. But he hoped that his Majesty's government would take their case into consideration, and contrive to relieve their distress.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrepeated the intention of government to send to Ireland as large a supply of bullion as possible; sufficient he hoped to remedy the grievance complained of. But if that supply should be insufficient, it would be open to his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer, to bring forward the measure he had mentioned upon the subject of Local Tokens.
Lord A. Hamiltonasked upon what ground the Chancellor of the Exchequer calculated upon such an increased supply of bullion by the period he had proposed to insert in the Bill, and whether he had any plan for keeping his new tokens, when issued, in circulation? Was the right hon. gentleman aware how much of 1,700,000 l. in tokens already issued by the Bank, remained in circulation, or had been withdrawn and melted down? He understood that a considerable quantity of tokens had been melted, and if such had been the fate of the Bank tokens already issued, what security could the right hon. gentleman present that the new issue would not meet the same fate if they were equal in intrinsic value? Then if the Bank tokens were likely to be thus withdrawn from circulation, the local tokens would still be necessary, and must be tolerated, if public accommodation were suited.
The House having resolved itself into the Committee,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reply to the observations of the noble lord, stated, that there was one simple fact upon which he grounded the calculations adverted to by the noble lord, namely, that the exchange had advanced 15 per cent. in our favour; and it was unnecessary to describe the consequence of such advance upon our supply, and the price of bullion. Care would, of course, be taken that the value of any tokens issued by the Bank, should keep pace with the market price of silver, and for such equality the public had no guarantee upon the mass of Local Tokens. As to the tokens already issued by the Bank, he believed the noble lord was misled respecting the number withdrawn from circulation. But any that had been withdrawn were most likely to return to circulation, when the new issue of Bank tokens should take place, and the competition of Local Tokens should be withdrawn.
Lord A. Hamiltonthought, that if the right hon. gentleman had no other reason to hope for an issue of silver, than the improvement of the exchange, the hope was a frail one.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, he did not see any great inconvenience result from the Local Tokens, they were so inferior to the coin of the realm, that they were limited in circulation, and as soon as the Bank should issue silver to any great amount they would fall of themselves.
Mr. Whitbreadthought the 5th of July an inconvenient time, as in all probability the House would not then be sitting, and great inconvenience would ensue from withdrawing the Local Tokens, in case the Bank should not be prepared to make the expected issue. If, however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would agree to bring the matter under consideration before parliament should be prorogued, he would refrain from moving an amendment.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerbowed assent, and the blanks were filled up with the 5th of July.

NAVAL OFFICERS IN THE SERVICE OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY
The Earl of Hardwickerose and said, that the Petition which he held in his hand was from a description of persons who, whatever might be the ultimate decision of parliament upon the great and important question which was shortly to be submitted to their consideration, had as strong a claim to have their case considered with the most favourable attention, as any class of individuals whose interests were connected with the subject to which he alluded: he meant the officers employed in the naval service of the East India Company. Many of these gentlemen had received their education in the royal navy; and from the great extent to which the navy of this country was carried in time of war, had found themselves, on the return of peace, deprived of the profession to which they had dedicated some of the best years of their lives; in some cases, from not being appointed to any commission in his Majesty's navy, and in others, where they had received their first commission of lieutenant, from being disappointed of any further advancement or employment in the navy. In this situation, many officers had entered into the naval service of the
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East India Company, and had contributed to maintain the high character by which it had been so long distinguished. On the other hand, there were instances of officers who had been originally in the service of the Company, having afterwards entered into the royal navy, in which they had risen to the highest rank and honours. Upon the whole, considering the character of the Company's naval officers, for nautical knowledge, skill, ability, and courage, of which many instances had occurred in the course of the present war, lord Hardwicke trusted that, whenever the subject of the East India trade was discussed, their case would receive that degree of attention from parliament to which it is so justly entitled.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.

PETITIONS RESPECTING THE CLAIMS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS.
Petitions against the Catholic Claims were presented from the archdeacon, clergy, and laity, of the archdeaconry of Colchester, the archdeacon and clergy of Essex, the archdeacon and clergy of St. Albans, and the dean and chapter, archdeacon and clergy of the diocese of Worcester by the bishop of London; from the corporation of Chichester by the bishop of Chichester, and from the corporation of Ripon by the earl of Hare wood.
The Duke of Leinsterspoke to the following effect:—I do not rise to oppose the Petitions lying on the table; but I am anxious to seize the first opportunity, lest I should be prevented attending the main question, of expressing my firm conviction of the justice and expediency of admitting our Roman Catholic fellow subjects to all the benefits of the British constitution. I am at a loss to discover what possible interest these petitioners can have, in excluding the great body of my countrymen from all share in the government. I am sure your lordships and the country have a great interest in giving them the same motives of attachment that Englishmen have. Give them these, and they will not only be loyal subjects, but an attached and grateful people. I live among them, and I am anxious to bear my testimony to their deserving the full enjoyment of those privileges, to which, as subjects of this great and free country, they are entitled by their birth.
A Petition to the same effect from the corporation and some of the inhabitants of

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Guildford was presented by lord Walsingham.
The Duke of Norfolkobserved upon an expression in the Petition, setting forth that the Catholics had repeatedly claimed "the right of enjoying political power," that his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects never had laid claim to political power, but only to the eligibility of attaining it if their merits should be found deserving of it. He could not, therefore, let such an unfounded assertion in the Petition pass without contradicting it.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.