Sitting of 11 February 1813

PETITIONS RESPECTING THE RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER—FROM THE CITY OF LONDON—RUTHER-GLEN—SHROPSHIRE—AND LANCASTER.
A Petition of the lord mayor, aldermen, and commons of London, in common council assembled, was read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, deeply impressed with the necessity of supporting the interests and prosperity of the city and port of London, view with the most serious concern the communication made on the 4th day of January last, by the president of the board of commmissioners for the affairs of India, to the chairman and deputy chairman of the. E. I Company, which, in consequence of the late correspondence and negociation for the renewal of the Company's charter, states that the ministers of the Prince Regent, consistently with their sense of public duty, can submit no arrangement to parliament that does not include an extension of the import trade; and that this proposed extension of the import trade to the outports appears to the petitioners not only contrary to the wise system and long recognized principles of policy with respect to our Asiatic possessions which have been uniformly pursued by former administrations, and more especially by his Majesty's ministers in 1793, when the E. I. Company's charter was renewed, but seems, under every circumstance of political commercial and financial consideration, likely to be attended with results highly injurious to the true interests of the country at large; and that it appears to the petitioners that the East India Company, throughout the whole of its progress to its present state, has been supported strengthened and invigorated by a grand

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vital principle of indissoluble connection between its government and trade; and that to break asunder this connection would imminently endanger, if not totally destroy, the government, the territorial wealth, and the trade of India; and that the petitioners feel themselves called upon to express their conviction that, were the Indian trade extended to the outports, it would only contribute to excite a wild and fruitless spirit of speculation, affording neither proper channels and markets for the diffusion and sale of British manufactures, nor an increase of commodities in return profitable to the merchant, and beneficial to the community; whilst the many and obvious facilities held out to smuggling would, by the introduction of prohibited goods, depreciate our native productions, and impair the best sources of our national industry and opulence; and that the proposed extension would, if carried into effect, inevitably produce the most ruinous consequences to the commercial and local interests of the city and port of London, by diminishing the means, and drying up the springs of industry, which have hitherto afforded occupation and support to a vast proportion of the national population; and that it would most materially injure, if not altogether ruin, the various and very considerable establishments now formed, consisting of docks, manufactories, warehouses, storehouses, and other useful buildings, constructed at an immense ex-pence both in the city of London and on the banks of the Thames, which, during the continued pressure of war, and the most trying periods of public distress and embarrassment, have supplied with employment many thousands of workmen, artificers, artisans, and labourers, and afforded to their numerous families the certain means of subsistence; and that, considering the measure as connected with the public revenue, to which the city of London so very largely contributes, and thereby in a great degree upholds the honour and credit of the country, the petitioners cannot view the proposed extension without alarming apprehensions of encreased expence and difficulties in the collection of the import duties, which being at present limited to one point, and collected in an easy expeditious and certain way, almost without expence, would be then split divided and subdivided, so as to become embarrassed slow and precarious in the receipts, and attended with an enormous disbursement in the mode of
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collecting; and that it appears to the petitioners, from a consideration of the internal state of India, as well as from the experience of the private trade which has been, and continues to be allowed, that it is impracticable in any material degree to augment the import of profitable commodities from, or the export of British manufactures to India: and that the petitioners feel it their indispensible duty to express their firm conviction, that however detrimental such extension would prove to the city and port of London, it could not but prove still more so to the mercantile and manufacturing branches connected with, the outports, and terminate in the certain disappointment of their present hopes and expectations; and that, with respect to the export trade, as many thousands of artificers, with their families, would be in danger of extreme distress and misery, in proportion as they would be deprived of employment by its removal from the port of London, the petitioners humbly beg leave to state that it is of the highest importance to the city and port of London that the export trade to India and China should continue to be carried on as heretofore; and that the interests of the E. I. Company appear to the petitioners to be so interwoven with the political and commercial system of the British empire as to excite in their minds the most serious apprehensions that extreme danger will arise to the constitution, in case of the dissolution of that body, from the transfer of the Indian patronage to the crown, which is to be dreaded in the event of the threatened separation of the government and commerce of India taking place; and praying, that on any renewal of the E. I. Company's Charter, the trade to and from India and China may be continued exclusively to the port of London, and that the pensioners may be heard, by their counsel and agents, in support of the prayer of their Petition."
A Petition of the magistrates and common council of the burgh of Rutherglen, in council assembled, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, with great deference to the House, conceive it to be the right of all British subjects to have a free trade to India, China, and the other countries to the eastward of the Cape of Good Hope, and they are bold enough to say, that the exclusive privilege to this trade in favour of a particular class of in-

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dividuals has been, and must be, attended with prejudicial consequences to the commerce and manufactures of the United Kingdom, the more especially as it has been allowed to foreign states at amity with his Majesty, and denied to British subjects; and that, among many other powerful reasons why this trade ought to be allowed to all British subjects, the petitioners are humbly of opinion, by it the peace of the community might be thereby secured by affording full work and fair wages to the operative classes, to secure whose comfort, and to render whom contented with their situation, is of the very highest importance to the state; and praying, that no exclusive grant may be given to the trade, to the eastward of the Cape of Good Hope; and that the commerce with those countries may not be confined to any particular port in the United Kingdom, but that the House will restore to British subjects those commercial privileges to which they have an undoubted light."
A Petition of the iron-masters, proprietors of the principal iron-works in Shropshire, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners beg leave to represent to the House, that though they are fully sensible that it is a duty incumbent upon every subject of these realms to submit, and the petitioners are willing cheerfully to submit to every commercial regulation and restriction by which the welfare of the state is essentially promoted, yet they apprehend, and beg leave to state, that the principle of restraining the subjects of these realms from trading with foreign nations and our distant possessions, by granting an exclusive exercise of that right to a chaptered company, is so far from being essential to the welfare of the state, that it in itself is an obstacle to the increase of our commercial intercourse with those foreign nations and distant possessions; and that the principle of conducting trade with foreign nations and distant possessions by means of a chartered company, tends to increase the price paid by them for the transport of our manufactures, and to enhance that which we pay for their produce, and thereby, instead of being a benefit to this country, is an injury, and consequently an injustice to both; and that the petitioners presented a petition to the House in the last session of parliament, praying that the charter of the E. I. Company may be abolished, and that from the
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many important facts which have been disclosed, in the discussions which have since taken place on the subject of the said charter, the petitioners are more than ever convinced that a renewal thereof would not only be impolitic in a national point of view, but deeply injurious to the mercantile interest of these kingdoms; and praying, that, if possible, the exclusive charter of the E. I. Company may not be renewed, or that if from circumstances, not within the knowledge of the petitioners, it should appear to the House necessary to concede to the Company the exclusive privilege of trading to some particular nation situated beyond the Cape of Good Hope, such concession may be as limited as the nature of the case will admit: and the petitioners earnestly intreat of the House, so in its wisdom to protect the rights of his Majesty's subjects, as that they may not be restricted from a free intercourse with our Indian possessions, nor without absolute necessity from trading with any of those nations which are situated beyond the Cape of Good Hope."
A Petition of the merchants, shipowners, and others interested in the trade of the town of Lancaster, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, impressed with the belief that the policy which has so long confined the commerce of India, China, and other countries eastward of the Cape of Good Hope, by charter of monopoly granted to the E. I. Company, is not calculated to give to the nation at large those advantages which would result from a free intercourse with them; and that, in addressing themselves to the House" they venture, with the most respectful confidence, to maintain that the interest" of this great empire will be importantly benefited by a free trade with the countries in question; and that a continued exclusion from them will be attended with prejudicial consequences; and that, in opposition to the principles of justice-and sound policy, this, intercourse has been allowed to foreign states at amity with his Majesty, while it has been denied to his own subjects, and, as in the case of the United Stales of America, has greatly contributed to weaken the resources of this country; and to strengthen those of the enemy; and that, at a time when it is of the utmost importance to give the people of the United Kingdom all the advantages of their skill, industry

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and capital, when the prosecution of an expensive war renders it necessary to adopt every means for augmenting the revenue, and when the prosperity of the nation requires so much the maintenance of its naval superiority by encouraging a nursery for seamen, it becomes indispensably requisite to open every legitimate channel of commerce; and that the system which has hitherto confined the E. I trade to the port of London, is contrary to the equal rights of British subjects, and to those principles of justice and liberal policy by which the legislature is directed; and that it cannot be necessary, because it has been completely proved that the revenue is as well secured, and collected with as much ease and safety, at the out-ports, as at the port of London; and that the extent of coast in the King's channel admits of facilities for smuggling which do not exist at the out-ports; and praying, that no exclusive grant be given to trade with the countries to the eastward of the Cape of Good Hope, or to any part thereof, and that this commerce may be extended to every port in which the Warehousing Act of the 43d of the King has been acted upon, and that the House will, in its wisdom, adopt such measures as will secure the rights and privileges to which the petitioners, as British subjects, possess an unquestionable claim, and which are eminently calculated to promote the welfare and interests of the country at large."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITIONS AGAINST THE CLAIMS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS—FROM THE ARCHDEACON AND CLERGY OF BATH AND WELLS—MAYOR, &c. OF ST. ALBANS—ARCHDEACON, &c. OF ST. ALBANS—ARCHDEACON AND CLERGY OF SUFFOLK—ARCHDEACON AND CLERGY OF SUDBURY—CLERGY OF CARMARTHEN, CARDIGAN, AND BRECON—ARCHDEACON AND CLERGY OF WINCHESTER—BAILIFFS, &c. OF IPSWICH—INHABITANTS OF ANGLESEY—ARCHDEACON, &C. OF COLCHESTER—ARCHDEACON AND CLERGY OF LINCOLN—DEAN AND CHAPTER OF WORCESTER—GENTRY, CLERGY, &C. OF HANG-WEST—AND THE MAYOR, &C. OF HARWICH.
A Petition of the archdeacons and clergy of the diocese of Bath and Wells, was presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners have witnessed with considerable apprehension the recent attempts made to extend the concessions already yielded to Papists, by
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granting to them privileges from which they have hitherto been legally debarred; and that they humbly beg leave to state, that they do not entertain personal prejudices against any individuals, or against any community', on account of dissent from the established religion, nor are they desirous of abridging the liberty of conscience enjoyed by all persons dissenting from the doctrines and discipline of the established Church, but they cannot contemplate without additional alarm the preparations openly made to promote the revival of Popery, and the arguments advanced in support of what are called the Catholic Claims, claims openly avowed, by the Popish prelates and their clergy, to consist in a perfect equality with Protestants in every political privilege; and they humbly beg leave farther to state, that, if the indulgencies sought by persons of the Romish communion were questions of mere political expediency, they should rejoice in any boon safely conferred on them by the State; but, as faithful ministers of the Church of England, they cannot consider the predominance of Popery over Protestantism, in an integral part of his Majesty's dominions, as a mere question of political expediency; and they should deem such an event nothing less than the harbinger of the downfall of the Church of England; and that they presume not to insinuate that the wisdom of parliament cannot grant such indulgences as may gratify the reasonable Petitions of our Roman Catholic brethren, but they confidently hope that those indulgences will be thoroughly consistent with the constitution, as settled in 1688, with the Protestant succession, and with the Act of Settlement on which the right of the august House of Brunswick to the crown is founded, and also with the perfect security and integrity of that pure and apostolical Church by Divine Providence established in these realms."
A Petition of the mayor, aldermen, recorder, burgesses, clergy, and principal inhabitants, of the borough of St. Alban, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners observe with the utmost solicitude and alarm the assiduous efforts of the Roman Catholics to obtain admission to all places of political power and trust, both civil and military, and to the unlimited exercise of legislative functions; and that it is with feelings of unfeigned satisfaction they contemplate the

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blessings of religious toleration, as ex tended to their fellow-subjects of the Roman Catholic Church, and the removal of all the disabilities affecting their property and personal rights, but they feel it an imperious duty, not only to themselves but to posterity, now to resist their persevering endeavours, notwithstanding the large and important privileges already conceded to them, to acquire possession of political influence and power, in direct violation of all the principles of the Revolution, and all the subsequent laws, which have secured such privileges only to those of the Protestant establishment; and that, confiding in the wisdom of the legislature, they have hitherto refrained from petitioning the House against the Claims of the Roman Catholics, so repeatedly and incessantly urged; but such silence having been misconstrued into a tacit approbation of the measure, the petitioners feel anxious to record their fullest conviction of the danger of such concessions, which, as they conceive, can only be granted by an abandonment of that constitutional principle on which the security of the Protestant establishment and the right of the throne is founded; and the petitioners therefore humbly implore the House, the guardians and protectors of their liberties, both civil and religious, to become the opponents of every measure that may give political ability to the Roman Catholics to undermine the basis of the British constitution, and that it may be still transmitted, with all its blessings and privileges, unimpaired to their posterity."
A Petition of the archdeacon and clergy of the archdeaconry of Saint Alban, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners contemplate with the liveliest satisfaction that full and equal toleration extended by the British government to all its subjects in matters of religion, by which provision the private privilege of conscience is exempt, as it ought to be, from human limitation or controul, and the public acts and professions of men in those respects are liable to no restraints but such as are deemed necessary for the safety, peace, and welfare, of the whole community; and that the petitioners entertain the most earnest wish that every subject in the British empire should be free to share in civil benefits, and be affected by no incapacity for place or power, except where the security
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and welfare of the State may require the continuance of such restraints as have been deemed necessary by the judgment of the legislature, on which ground it is that they humbly conceive the present claims of the Roman Catholics of this realm to be inadmissible; and that the petitioners, in this last expression of their sentiments, do not regret the several acts of indulgence which have been successively conceded to this body of their countrymen and fellow Christians, so well calculated, as such favours have been, to conciliate and satisfy the minds of those who stand unhappily divided from us, in communion; and that if the members of the Church of Rome in this land, by any overt acts of an hostile nature to the State have forfeited at any time the right to full and perfect toleration, the petitioners see with pleasure the restitution of such right, judging that the government in its wisdom has found it safe to remove those restraints which were only warranted by the necessary care and preservation of the public weal; they likewise hope and trust that every further favour and indulgence may be granted, so far as can be consistent with the safety of the State, and of course with the security of the Protestant establishment, with which the dearest interests of the State are interwoven, but they are persuaded that an equal participation of the legislative power cannot safely be thrown open to a body of Christians, whose avowed and unalterable principles, founded on the decisions of a Church which calls itself infallible, are hostile to the civil supremacy in this realm, as extended over all persons and all causes; such a privilege, enlarged to men whose consciences are subject to an arbitrary power without the realm, and operating as it must do very frequently in mixed cases, tends directly to subvert the British constitution bequeathed to us by our ancestors, and settled in its fundamental laws and public declarations; and that the petitioners humbly apprehend that no just claim to civil rights against existing laws so framed, can be competent to any body of men, much less to a manifest minority; and that the petitioners, with reference to this branch of the question which relates to numbers, feel sensibly for that part of the British empire where the numbers of those whose claims are now put forward, preponderate in a great degree; the petitioners are therefore led to wish most earnestly for any improve-

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ment of their circumstances which the case admits, but they cannot but observe that the British laws and constitution are planned for the safety of the whole, and more especially in these two following respects—that no foreign head shall have authority or jurisdiction of what kind so-ever in this realm;—and that the. Protestant establishment and Protestant ascendancy, the main bulwark of our integrity in matters of religion and of our liberties and well-being as a people, shall be preserved inviolable; and that the petitioners should view, with equal apprehension and anxiety, any disposition to separate the civil and religious interests of the realm, the consequence of which would not only be the ruin of the present ecclesiastical establishment of the Church of England, but the overthrow of all peace and concord among Christians, as subsisting in one land or nation; upon this account the petitioners view with astonishment the attempts of those who would represent this whole question as exclusively political, and humbly crave leave to express their sense, at this juncture, of the danger of yielding to those claims which admit not of the common pledges which, arc now required from all those who share in the legislative branches of authority."
A Petition of the archdeacon of Suffolk, and of the clergy, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners view, with increasing concern and alarm, the repeated and persevering efforts of the Roman Catholics of the United Kingdom, to obtain from the legislature an elevation to a degree of political power which, in the humble opinion of the petitioners, cannot be granted them without the most imminent danger to the constitution both in Church and State; and that the petitioners feel they would be guilty of a dereliction of duty, were they longer to defer expressing, in the most unequivocal but respectful manner, not only that firm and zealous attachment to the Church, of which they are ministers, springing from the belief that its doctrines are scriptural, and its ordinances apostolical, for which they claim credit from the House and their country, but also their full persuasion that, with the preservation of the Church, the best interests of true religion, as well as the stability of the monarchy, and consequent happiness and prosperity of the people, are most intimately and indeed inseparably connected;
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but great as is their confidence in the purity of the Church, as by law established, the petitioners contemplate, with unfeigned satisfaction, the complete and unrestrained exercise of their religion, granted to all who unhappily separate from her communion, and they humbly conceive that Roman Catholics, in common with all Protestant dissenters, enjoy this toleration in the most ample manner; and that the petitioners, therefore, most earnestly implore the House, not to relax those salutary regulations in the instance of persons professing the Roman Catholic religion, to which ail Protestants are at this time compelled to submit, nor to remove those guards and fences which have been so wisely planted round the venerable fabric of the united Church of England and Ireland, cemented in the blood of its martyrs, unless parliament shall, in its wisdom, provide other means of security, which the petitioners have never yet seen detailed, that may prove a support and defence equally permanent and solid."
A Petition of the archdeacon and clergy of the archdeaconry of Sudbury, in the county of Suffolk, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, impressed with a just regard for the Church of which they are ministers, and duly grateful for the peace and tranquillity it has so long enjoyed, feel increasing alarm and apprehension at the claims and persevering efforts of the Roman Catholics of the United Kingdom to obtain from the legislature an elevation to political power, which, in the humble opinion of the petitioners, appears incompatible with the maintenance of the reformed religion and the security of the Protestant succession in these realms; and that the petitioners feel themselves compelled by their duty, on a comparison of the extent and object of these claims with the principles and policy of those who make them, to express strongly, but with all respect and deference, their sense of such dangerous demands, conceiving that in reason and prudence power cannot be confided to persons who are under the dominion of an influence hostile to the establishment, the petitioners, at the same time, confiding in the scriptural and apostolical excellence of that Church of which they are members, contemplate, with unfeigned satisfaction, the complete and unrestrained exercise of their religion, granted to all who dissent

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and separate from her communion, and they humbly conceive that Roman Catholics enjoy this toleration in common with them in the most ample manner; and that, fully persuaded the best interests of religion, as well as the stability of the monarchy, and the prosperity of the people, are intimately and inseparably connected with the preservation of the reformed Protestant Church, and having experienced the efficacy of the laws so wisely enacted by our ancestors as a guard and protection, the petitioners humbly and most earnestly implore the House not to relax those salutary regulations, nor to remove those fences planted round the venerable fabric of the united Church of England and Ireland, and cemented in the blood of its martyrs; and that, influenced by these considerations, the petitioners, with all humility and respect, offer this expression of their sentiments to the House, confidently trusting that on an occasion in which the interests of the reformed religion are so vitally concerned, the voice of its ministers will not be disregarded, and that, in the wisdom of the House, they will adopt such measures as will best maintain the Protestant ascendancy in Church and State, and give stability and permanence to the civil and ecclesiastical constitution of the country."
Three Petitions—of the clergy of the archdeaconries of Carmarthen, Cardigan, and Brecon, in the diocese of Saint David—were also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners having heard with great anxiety of the renewed exertions which our Roman Catholic fellow subjects are making for the abolition of all those tests which our forefathers judged to be necessary for the security of the Protestant establishment in Church and State, and being impressed with a deep conviction of the inestimable value of the Protestant religion, as professed by the Church of England; which they esteem to be not less valuable to us than to our forefathers, who established it, and being, moreover, fully persuaded that the corruptions of Popery, which our pious and venerable reformers laboured to eradicate, and resisted unto death, have not changed their character, but are equally inimical to national liberty and to the Protestant faith, do humbly pray that the House will not remove any restrictions which are essential to the security of the Established Church and Protestant succession, nor
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grant any concessions which may in any way endanger the blessings of the Reformation."
A Petition of the archdeacon and clergy of the archdeaconry of Winchester, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, while they in all humility submit to the House their serious apprehensions of the dangerous consequences of conceding to the Roman Catholics of the United Kingdom their claims of a total repeal of those statutes which preclude them from offices of trust and power, at the same time anxiously disavow every degree of intolerance, or any uncharitable wish to controul or abridge, either with regard to our Roman Catholic fellow subjects, or to Christians of any other persuasion dissenting from our Church, the freest profession of those opinions, or the most unrestricted exercise of that worship which their conscience approves; and that they however conceive that at no period in the annals of Christianity was this liberty more fully and perfectly enjoyed by those of every Christian persuasion within the United Kingdom than at the present moment in which we live; and these inestimable advantages the petitioners humbly think themselves warranted in attributing, in great measure, to the ascendency of a mild and tolerant establishment, protected by those enactments of which an entire and unqualified repeal is now required; and praying, that those safeguards which our Protestant ancestors, men eminently distinguished by their legislative prudence, and their zealous attachment to the true principles of civil and religious liberty, delivered down to us, and which appear to be still necessary to the protection of our constitution in Church and State, to the security of the Protestant succession in the illustrious House of Hanover, and to the interests of the Protestant religion in the United Kingdom, may, by the wisdom of the House, be preserved, so that all the blessings experimentally resulting from them for more than a century past may be, under the favour of Divine Providence, transmitted unimpaired to the latest posterity."
A Petition of the bailiffs, burgesses, and commonalty, of Ipswich, in great court assembled, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, actuated by no

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sentiments of hostility towards their Roman Catholic fellow subjects, and uninfluenced by any wish to restrain the free exercise of religious opinions, yet view with the most serious alarm, the efforts now making to extend the indulgences already granted to Papists, by conferring upon them political privileges from which they have hitherto been legally debarred; and that the petitioners, with a deference befitting an appeal to the deliberative wisdom of parliament, beg permission respectfully to state their conscientious persuasion, that the repeal of those laws, on which the remaining Catholic disabilities are founded, is inconsistent with the spirit and safety of the British constitution, inasmuch, as in the honest judgment of the petitioners, the restrictions now sought to be abolished have essentially contributed to the preservation of those civil and religious institutions under which this nation has attained to an envied elevation of political prosperity; and they therefore earnestly implore the House, not to relax in the maintenance of those ancient and tried securities, which long experience has proved to be the surest bulwarks of this Protestant Church and State, and for the continuance of which it is their firm belief, that as valid reasons now exist as when they were first devised by the provident wisdom of our ancestors."
A Petition of the gentlemen clergy and other inhabitants of the county of Anglesey, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, deeply as they are impressed with a just abhorrence of all persecution for difference of opinion in faith or practice, and justly as they exult in being members of a national church which has ever shown tenderness to scrupulous consciences in the exercise of religion, do nevertheless humbly conceive the preservation of that Church, as by law established, to be their primary and bounden duty; and that the petitioners rejoiced in the relief granted by the Act of the 31st of his present Majesty to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, but lament that, instead of the gratitude and contentment which that measure was calculated to produce, it has encouraged them to advance claims manifestly subversive of the Protestant establishment; it therefore becomes the duty of the petitioners, and they do most humbly pray, that the House, in any measures which in its wisdom it may adopt for the farther relief of the Roman Catho-
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lics of Ireland, will take especial care that those measures be so framed as to preserve that constitution, civil and religious, which the petitioners have received from their ancestors, and which it is their anxious wish to transmit unimpaired to their posterity."
A Petition of the archdeacon, clergy, and laity of the archdeaconry of Colchester, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners have viewed, with a great degree of anxiety and interest, the discussions which have from time to time engaged the attention of the House upon certain claims preferred by his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects of this United Kingdom, and have seen with increased solicitude these claims urged upon the House with additional confidence on the part of the claimants; and that the petitioners, sincere friends to religious toleration, and faithfully united in the bonds of Christian charity to all their fellow subjects, however differing from them in religious opinion, have, among the many preferences which they have conscientiously given to the established Church of these realms, not admired it the least for its mild ascendancy over those who dissent from it, for its Christian temper on all occasions towards them, and for its uniform moderation; and that, influenced by these sentiments, and relying with a confidence, which they trust will never be disappointed, on the wisdom of the House, the petitioners have hitherto forborn to express their apprehensions on this very important subject, but conceiving from the measures they have observed, and from the exertions which have been adopted, that the same claims may soon be pressed with new energy upon the House, they feet it their bounden duty humbly to submit to the House, that, in their sincere and conscientious opinion, these claims cannot be conceded in the unlimited and unrestricted application in which the petitioners understand they have been made, without danger in their immediate effects, and still mote in what the petitioners conceive would be their unavoidable consequences to that constitution in Church and State for which our forefathers in their wisdom so strenuously, and happily for us, so successfully contended, and by which, under the mercy and protection of Divine Providence, this country has been raised to a state of strength and prosperity en-

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vied by other nations, and enjoyed by none; and that, were the disabilities and disqualifications of the petitioners' fellow subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion such as would affect their liberty of conscience, their free exercise of religious worship, or any of those privileges which are essential to the happiness of social or domestic life, the petitioners would be the first to promote their removal, but being, as they are, mere restraints against political power, legislative authority, and that influence in the state, from which, for the security of our reformed and established Church, it has been deemed necessary by the Act of Settlement, and by other acts of the legislature, which are esteemed the very basis of our valued constitution, to exclude those who refuse her communion, the petitioners feel every ground for confidence that the House will pause before it compromises or infringes in the first instance, those fundamental laws of the state by which our religious and civil liberties have by the wisest of our statesmen been hitherto considered as best secured, and by which our revered monarch and his august family became entitled to and seated on the throne; and that the petitioners are aware that some men of enlightened understandings and sincere professions, who are advocates for the concession of these claims, have been forward in expressing a desire that other securities of the state should be substituted in the place of the disabilities and restrictions which now exist; but, as far as the petitioners have been able to learn, none have hitherto been publicly proposed, or sufficiently explained, to reconcile contrarieties of opinion, or calculated to give equal stability to the Protestant establishment, or to conduce, however desirable, to the general satisfaction and concord of all his Majesty's subjects; and that the petitioners are unwilling to bring before the consideration of the House those religious tenets which, however revered by their Roman Catholic fellow subjects, are in their tendency and nature inconsistent with a Protestant ascendancy, and a Protestant creed; they therefore merely presume to submit to the House, that while the spiritual influence of the Pope continues undiminished, his temporal power has become subject to the unrestrained controul of the most inveterate and unrelenting enemy his Majesty and his dominions have ever known; the petitioners, therefore, feel a new danger,
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which adds to their solicitude and apprehension, in the firm belief that this power would be exercised in every degree of influence which can be acquired in this United Kingdom by the Catholic See, to the immediate prejudice and final subversion of its religious and civil establishment; and for these considerations, and for others which the petitioners confidently entrust to the accustomed vigilance and discernment of the House, the petitioners are disposed firmly to believe that they shall still have the happiness of seeing those securities which were provided in the wisdom of our ancestors at the enlightened æra of the Revolution, for the protection of our reformed Church and the preservation of our civil liberties, faithfully maintained, and in a grateful sense of the blessings which, under Providence, they have conferred on us, transmitted inviolate to posterity, and remaining the stability of our revered constitution to a distant futurity."
A Petition of the archdeacons and clergy of the archdeaconries of Lincoln and Stow, was also presented; setting forth,
"That most sincerely attached to that reformed Protestant Church, of which they are ministers, and duly grateful for the peace and tranquillity which this their Church has so long enjoyed, the petitioners feel in their minds the most serious apprehension and alarm at the claims recently laid before parliament by the Roman Catholics; and that, on a careful comparison of the object and extent of these claims, with the principles and policy of those who make them, the petitioners find themselves imperiously called upon to offer the strong, but respectful, expression of their sentiments, in opposition to such dangerous demands, conceiving that it would be utterly contrary to all reason and prudence to put power in the hands of those who, in spiritual matters, openly maintain the supremacy of the Papal authority within this realm, and who, in other respects, are well known to hold opinions incompatible with the safety of the constitution; and that having amply experienced the efficacy of the laws, which the wisdom of our ancestors enacted for the protection of the Protestant establishment, and being thoroughly convinced that they contain in them nothing inconsistent with religious toleration, (which it is matter of the highest satisfac-

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tion to the petitioners to see the Roman Catholics in full and complete possession of,) they earnestly pray that these laws may not be repealed, and that if, notwithstanding, for reasons which the petitioners are not aware of, there should appear to the House a paramount necessity for the repeal of those laws, their next prayer is, that the House would substitute such others in their place as, though indifferent form, may seem equally calculated to produce the same effect, seeing in any thing less strong than the existing securities much hazard to the Protestant interest, whilst, from an unqualified compliance with the demands of the Roman Catholics, they could look for little else than its subversion; and that, under the influence of these impressions, the petitioners beg leave, with all humility and respect, to tender this their Petition to the House, confidently trusting, that on an occasion in which the interests of the reformed religion are so vitally concerned, the voice of its ministers will not be disregarded; and that in the wisdom of the House they will adopt such measures as will best maintain the Protestant ascendancy in Church and State, and give stability and permanence to the civil and ecclesiastical constitution of the country."
A Petition of the dean and chapter, archdeacon, and clergy of Worcester, was also presented; setting forth,
"That they are justly alarmed at the high tone assumed by the Papists in Ireland in their late petitions to parliament; and that the petitioners have no wish whatever to abridge the religious toleration they enjoy, but they dread an increase of their political power, and do therefore most earnestly intreat the House in their wisdom to consider whether such power, if conceded, would not tend to endanger the Protestant establishment, interwoven with the constitution of these realms; by the statements of the Roman Catholics themselves, the character of their Church is known to be inconsistent with our civil and religious liberties, and to be subversive of the king's ecclesiastical supremacy; and that dear to the petitioners is the liberty they enjoy, and revered the constitutional power of the monarch, but dearer Still are the tenets of our holy faith, and the pure doctrines of our apostolical Church, which by the most sacred ties they are bound to continue and uphold."
A Petition of the Protestant gentry, clergy, and householders, within the district of Hang West, in the North Riding of York, was also presented; setting forth,
"That, with earnest wishes to live on terms of amity and conciliation with their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, they feel with concern, and observe with alarm, their strenuous and persevering exertions to obtain the unqualified repeal of those laws on which the remaining Roman Catholic disabilities depend, and which, if conceded, the petitioners humbly conceive, would tend to subvert the Protestant settlement and the principles of the British constitution as established at the Revolution; and that, whenever the Roman Catholic Claims shall become the subject of discussion in the House, the petitioners humbly implore, if the House in its wisdom should resolve that any further privileges (consistent with the spirit and principles of the constitution) may be safely granted to the Roman Catholics, that the same may be so guarded as to afford full and perfect security to the Protestant establishment in Church and State, and to shield it from future encroachments."
A Petition of the mayor, aldermen, and capital burgesses of Harwich, and the clergy and other inhabitants of the same borough, was also presented; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, considering religious toleration as one of the most striking features in the constitution of the united church of Great Britain and Ireland, have viewed, with the greatest satisfaction, the gradual amelioration of the condition of their Roman Catholic brethren, and rejoice in seeing them possessed of the most unbounded liberty of conscience, and the full, free, and public exercise of their religious worship, together with the most perfect freedom of both person and property; warned, however, by the recording page of history, the petitioners look back with horror to that period, when armed with political power, the Catholic religion deluged this happy country with blood, and now, notwithstanding the great respectability of numerous individuals attached to that communion, the petitioners feel the strongest apprehensions that similar causes may, at some future period, give rise to similar events; and that these apprehensions are very much increased by the manner in which (as the petitioners understand),

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their Romish fellow subjects are endeavouring to obtain political power and authority; and they think it a bad presage of the use hereafter to be made of those acquisitions, when, instead of approaching the House in the language of humility, many of their accredited and most popular leaders demand them as their indisputable rights, at the same time refusing to give any adequate security in return for the preservation of the civil and religious rights of their Protestant brethren; and that another weighty cause of apprehension to the petitioners arises from the situation in which the spiritual head of the Roman Catholics is at present placed, he being completely in the power, and entirely at the command, of the most artful and inveterate enemy this country ever had to contend with; how the unbounded influence he possesses over the minds of his too faithful adherents would be exercised when under such controul, the petitioners consider so apparent, that they should not have submitted it to the House but from the strong conviction that that influence which, from the present state of political power in this country is innocuous, would then be employed to arm our Catholic fellow subjects against us, and might ultimately be productive of the destruction of our most glorious constitution; and that, confiding however as the petitioners do in the unshaken fortitude and wisdom that has hitherto always been displayed by the House, in the most trying emergencies, they humbly trust that, should it be found expedient to alter any of the existing laws in favour of the Roman Catholics, it will be on such terms as shall secure inviolate to the latest posterity that happy constitution in Church and State which has been purchased by the dearest blood of our ancestors, and which has so long made us the envy and admiration of surrounding nations."
When the Petition from Anglesea was presented,
Sir Henry Parnellrose for the purpose of stating some extraordinary circumstances that had come to his knowledge respecting the Petition now offered. At the meeting which was convened for the purpose of suggesting it to the county, the gentleman who proposed it, made a speech of an hour and three quarters long, in order to prevail upon his hearers to adopt it. This address, instead of detailing facts, or urging arguments against the
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claims of the Roman Catholics, was filled from beginning to end with quotations made from the Anti-Jacobin Review, of the Third Part of "A Statement of the Penal Laws affecting the Roman Catholic." It was well known to every individual at all acquainted with the subject, that this third part was a malicious and contemptible, fabrication, published for the purpose of defeating the just objects of a much injured portion of the king's subjects, and it betrayed the grossest ignorance on the part of the person who cited it, as any authority to justify a Petition in opposition to their claims. This forgery, had, however, been successfully employed on this and on many other occasions; it had been circulated throughout England with an industry that would have well become a better cause. Not only was the work itself transmitted to every country town, to mislead the ignorant, but pamphlets were written, and arguments employed, founded upon the false data supplied by this gross, malignant, and mischievous imposition upon public credulity. The House and the country, from such statements, might judge of the weight due to petitions, most frequently obtained by working upon the feelings, and deceiving the ignorance of the people of England.
Dr. Duigenanthought that the worthy baronet was needlessly alarmed, since, even supposing that the pamphlet were such as he had described it, it could not make that deep impression upon the minds of the sensible people of England which he had imagined: it was unfounded to assert, that the petitions against the Catholic demands were founded upon statements and arguments derived from the Third Part of the Statement of the Penal Laws. The resistance offered throughout the country, and in the House when the debate should take place, would be grounded upon the first and second parts of the Statement of the Penal Laws, written under the direction of the Catholic committee, and containing their exposition of the grievances under which they labour. He recommended the worthy baronet to read them, that he might be prepared against the discussion of the Catholic question, if he had not already perused them; and if he was acquainted with them, he defied him to maintain that they were not authorised by the Catholic body of Ireland.
Sir H. Parnellreplied, that although he

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did not know what right the right hon. doctor had to catechise him, he had no objection to answer, that the two first parts of the Statement of the Penal Laws were authentic: he believed them to be the production of a gentleman who was employed by the general body of Catholics, to lay an exposition of the laws before the public. He feared that the learned doctor had not himself perused them, or he would never have persisted in his opposition to the just rights of four millions of the King's subjects. That the two first parts of the Statement were accurate he had no doubt, since he had found all the references made to the statute book to be correctly given.
Dr. Duigenanbegged to ask if the hon. baronet did not know that those two first parts were the work of the whole body of Catholics?
Mr. Whitbreadwished to make one or two observations on what had fallen from the right hon. doctor, who now appeared in the hey-day of his triumph. Time had been when the learned doctor had taken a most active part against the Catholics; time had been, when for a whole session, he had maintained a most unaccountable silence: the House was now threatened that a time would come when another speech would be heard from the same quarter; and the learned doctor took upon himself to say, not only that his own, but that the arguments of all gentlemen on that side of the question, would be drawn from the two first parts of the Statement of the Penal Laws: they had concerted together as to the line of their proceedings, and they were to fasten themselves on what the learned doctor called the work of the whole Catholic body. It appeared that the Petition now offered was founded upon a fabrication; it originated in a disgraceful forgery, and the House was called upon to listen to the language of those who had been cheated into a resistance to those claims, which, but for the gross imposition, they might have supported. The third part of the Statement purported, like the two former, to be the work of a Catholic, but it was in truth the production of some venal Protestant, who had attributed to the Catholics sentiments that they abhorred. The learned doctor had thought it right to volunteer a declaration of the mode in which his colleagues would resist the reasonable claims of some most injured individuals, and this Petition would afford a specimen of the mode in
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which their arguments would be seconded by the country. Their arguments were founded in falshood, and their support was obtained by forgery.
Mr. Tigheobserved, that the Roman Catholics would concur in any fact adduced in the two first parts of the Statement: upon them they would willingly rest their cause. Who was the author of this scandalous fabrication he did not know, but he trusted that the criminal would soon be dragged from his lurking place into public view. Although it must be known to be a malicious calumny, it had been industriously circulated free of postage, to every part of the kingdom, and it had actually issued from one of the government presses of Ireland. Whether it were intended for wit or for malice he knew not—the author had failed in the former; in the latter he had been too successful; it was the dull work of some dull underscribe of the Irish government; its dullness was only exceeded by the stupidity of those who could for a moment give credit to it.
Mr. B. Pagetadverted to the number of respectable signatures affixed to the Petition; it had been in Beaumaris only two days, and yet 800 names were subscribed.
Mr. Grattanremarked, that the Third Part of the Statement of the Penal Laws had been expressly denied by the Catholics of Ireland to have originated with them, and he read to the House the following Resolution the body had come to upon the subject, on the 6th instant, at Dublin:—" Resolved, that a pamphlet entitled 'The Third Part of a Statement of the Penal Laws which aggrieve the Catholics,' having been industriously circulated throughout England, for the manifest purpose of misleading our fellow subjects, and counteracting the growing liberality of sentiment, is now disclaimed by the Catholic Board, who cannot suppress their astonishment at the success of the imposition: that the said pamphlet is a gross and defamatory mis-statement—a malignant and malicious forgery, slandering our views and principles—misrepresenting our just and reasonable complaints—falsely purporting to be the authorised publication of the Catholic Board, and really originating in a venal branch of the Dublin press, and which, however received and credited in the sister country, has not imposed upon a single individual in this."—The right hon. gentleman

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submitted, that petitions resting upon such a basis, could be entitled to no respect in that House or the nation.
Mr. Peelrose in consequence of what fell from the hon. member who had accused the Irish government of being the author of the work in question. To-night he had heard, for the first time, from what press it had issued, and he only was made acquainted with the fact of the publication, by receiving a copy of it, accompanied by a letter from the anonymous author. How far it was necessary for the Catholics to attempt to counteract its effect, he would not determine. It was said that no assertion or quotation made in the two former parts were incorrect; it might not be amiss to apprize the House, that the printer of them, a few days since, was convicted of a libel, charging the Lord Lieutenant with deliberate murder.
Mr. Whitbread.This is the first time I ever heard it said, that because a man had been found guilty of a libel, he could not correctly quote an act of parliament.
Mr. Canning, from his own personal experience could declare, that this fabrication, in more than one instance, had produced an improper impression: it had induced persons before friendly to conciliation to become hostile to it, upon the perusal of the work. Of this fact he was apprized by letters he had obtained from several persons of respectability, who assured him, that up to the moment before they read this forgery, they were in favour of the Catholics; and that their change of sentiment was entirely to be attributed to it. He had never himself read it; but if it were what it was stated to be, he was happy that so public a disavowal had been given.
The Petitions were ordered to lie on the table.

STARCH PROHIBITION BILL.
Mr. Peelstated, that it was not his intention to persist in the motion of which he had given notice on the preceding evening, for leave to bring in a Bill to prevent the exportation, from Ireland to this country, of starch and blue. In abandoning the measure, however, he was not influenced by any of the arguments made use of by the right hon. baronet (sir J. Newport) in the short discussion which took place last night. For he did not see the impropriety of preventing the export of those articles from Ireland, when their manufacture was suspended here. Indeed, if
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the argument of the right hon. baronet, that the strict letter of the Act of Union should be adhered to, were pushed to its full extent, it might be said, that though, by its provisions, they were allowed to legislate for corn, flour, meal, and biscuit, yet they must not legislate for bread. The suspension of the manufacture in England, had occasioned unbounded speculation in the sister country; and he had received a letter from a gentleman in Kilkenny, stating, that a person there had thrown up the business of a tanner, for the purpose of turning his premises into a starch manufactory. Such speculations as these must necessarily consume a vast proportion of grain, proper for the sustenance of man. For the sake of encouraging the manufactures of Ireland, when the restriction took place in England, it was not extended to the former country, therefore, he argued, that, if there was an infraction of the Act of Union, it was in favour of Ireland. He then stated, that his right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having some reason to doubt whether the Starch Restriction Act, introduced by him last session, was so effectual as he hoped, in preventing the manufacture of that article, intended to repeal it: and it was considered better that the subjects of both countries, in compliance with one of the articles of the Act of Union, should be put on an equality, by permitting each of them to proceed in the manufacture, than by prohibiting them both.
Mr. Ponsonbydid not mean to discuss the merits of the measure which the hon. gentleman had abandoned; but he wished to observe, in consequence of what fell from the hon. gentleman, that it ought not to weigh with the House, whether an infraction of the Act of Union benefited the manufacturer of this country or of Ireland; their only duty was, to maintain the Act as it stood. The articles were equally binding on both countries, and all the House had to do was to see that they were strictly complied with.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerconcurred in the justice of the right hon. gentle. man's observation; but was of opinion that the measure of his hon. friend, if carried into effect, would not have been contrary to the spirit of the Articles of Union. He then moved that the British Starch Prohibition Bill be entered as read; and gave notice, that he would to-morrow move that it be taken into consideration by a Committee of the whole House.

VICE CHANCELLOR'S BILL.
Lord Castlereaghrose to move the second reading of the Vice Chancellor's Bill, in doing which he entered at large into the causes which rendered the creation of such an office advisable, and stated the reasons which had induced his Majesty's ministers to propose the Bill, He first took a view of the necessity which existed for adopting some measure of the kind; this necessity he contended was indisputable, and therefore the House had no option but to balance between it on the one hand, and the imperfections in any remedy they might think fit to apply on the other. Of its necessity it was not too much to say, that if some mode were not devised to render that judicial portion of our constitution equal to its labours, the whole of the judicial code of the country must be affected, and great injury done to the subject from the impossibility of obtaining timely redress in any suit. As a proof of this, he needed only to state, that there was at present in the House of Lords an arrear of 280 Appeals, which at an average of the rate in which such causes had been decided, could not be determined in less than eleven years. This in itself was a crying grievance to suitors, but the evil did not rest here. It was not confined to the mere suitors in those cases (great as the hardship was to be lamented as affecting them alone), but by the delay in ruling disputed points of law, the number of Appeals themselves were greatly augmented; for in the determination of these causes might be involved some principles, which, till a decision was obtained, kept the subject in ignorance of the law of the land, and multiplied litigation. Thus the mischief was not peculiar, but extended, and the cause of its own increase. The House must also feel that this delay offered a strong temptation to the ill-disposed, and encouraged persons to present Appeals for the mere purpose of postponing the effects of judgments; as it was obvious, that by moving into the House of Lords they could put off the decision for a term of years. An adversary, by the mere fact of interposing himself between a decree and the beneficial effect of it upon the successful suitor, might deprive him of that advantage and of the justice awarded to him for eleven years. Without therefore enlarging further upon this subject, he would take it for granted that the House must feel that it was the bounden duty of the legislature to find out some
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remedy for evils of this magnitude. A more important question had not been submitted to their consideration for a length of time, and, much as they had been occupied by weighty affairs, he could not help regretting, that it had not been brought forward at an earlier period. It had been imagined by some that the nature of the proposed measure was merely to relieve the Court of Chancery from the pressure of business; but this was a mistake, as would be seen by reference to the Resolutions of the Peers. The first of these Resolutions was directed to the almost total stagnation of business in that House, and proved that the remedy was not addressed to the Court of Chancery originally, but to this total stagnation of all business in the supreme court of appeal: and the Court of Chancery only came into the second Resolution, to shew that the state of business there was such that, by bringing a remedy from that court, they would occasion as great an evil as they removed. It was, he conceived, the duty of the Commons branch of the legislature, on viewing the proposition before them, to see in the first instance if any remedy could be applied by the Lords themselves by a different mode of executing their judicial functions, without creating any new office. Upon this subject they had the opinion of the Lords in grave decision, and without sacrificing any part of their independence, it would be right to look at the weighty recommendations with which this Bill came to them from the other House. It was founded on a most elaborate investigation, and had the entire concurrence of not only all the high legal authorities who sat in that House, but also of the leading political characters of every description. All parties agreed in the principle and in the detail of the measure, and it therefore came to them sanctioned by all the weight and consideration due to the other House of Parliament. It had been suggested that the Lords might by some new distribution of their duties get over the arrear of causes now before them, and prevent the recurrence of similar arrears in future. To accomplish this it was thought they might sit after the session for the general political business of the country was closed, and continue for a time to discharge their judicial functions. Surely, if there existed an objection to any other mode of remedy for the evil as an innovation, it was evident that in resorting to this

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in order to prevent the innovation of creating a new officer, they would be guilty of a still greater innovation upon the constitution. To suppose that the Lords would remain in town, after the other affairs of parliament were dispatched, for this purpose, was a visionary hope, and one upon which no wise statesman would act. Besides, there was a decided constitutional objection against it which was, that it could not be done without trenching upon the prerogative of the crown, in the important privilege of proroguing parliament. It must put the crown into the delicate and awkward situation of either permitting parliament to sit after the national business for which it had been assembled was finished, or of doing injustice to the claimants who were at their bar. As to the House of Lords appointing a committee or delegation of its members, such a measure would also be repugnant, to the constitution; and he apprehended that a further sitting of the whole House was not to be expected from its diligence. Indeed they had no right to expect from the House of Lords, that they would depart from their usual habits of sitting; and the evil would not be remedied by it even were their lordships to consent, instead of five months to sit for twice that term, unless gentlemen were prepared to encounter the other evil, namely, that the Lord Chancellor should not be the presiding officer in the House of Peers. Without this, the remedy thus projected would be only to exchange one evil for another, and transfer the arrears from the House of Lords to the Court of Chancery, by occupying the time of the Lord Chancellor in the former, which, during the recess, he now devoted to the latter.—With respect to the project for withdrawing the Lord Chancellor from presiding in the appellant jurisdiction, it was not necessary to go into detail. As far as he had watched the discussions upon this subject, no question had been made as to the separation of the office of Speaker from that of Chancellor, which had been formerly so long litigated and favourably considered by some high authorities, in the noble lord's opinion erroneously, as tending to cast a shade upon the dignity of the presidency of the House of Peers. The first statesmen who had turned their attention to this point, had unanimously agreed in opinion, that such an alteration would derogate from the dignity of the House. It was also evident that no other individual
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could be found to discharge this laborious duty. No doubt there were several eminent peers capable of performing this, but it was too much to think of building a permanent measure upon the existence or conveniency of peers, not of necessity bound so to devote themselves to the public service. It had been objected to the present measure, that it would tend to alter the habits of the Chancellor, and by confining him to his appellant jurisdiction, deprive him of his Chancery knowledge; but it might be answered, that the confinement of the officer to the jurisdiction in the House of Peers, would equally deprive him of such a knowledge of the equity and practice of Chancery as would enable him to come to competent decisions upon those cases which came before that House as a court of appeal: so that the evil complained of could not be cured without a violation of the principles of the constitution, or the creation of a correspondent evil. If this were true (and the noble lord knew of no flaw in its reasoning,) the question was from what quarter could aid be drawn; and, in his opinion, it was only from that now proposed that aid could be drawn safely and with advantage. The question then was, (there being a necessity to provide some aid in the Court of Chancery) whether it could be drawn from the other courts of law, or whether they must erect a new officer? In the Court of Chancery itself there was a great if not a growing arrear—a great calamity for which there appeared to be no remedy, unless by creating a correspondent evil elsewhere, for if the Lord Chancellor had not called in aid the assistance of the Master of the Rolls, it was only because that could not be done without creating a corresponding evil in the Rolls Court. None of the other courts were in a situation to afford help, but were all so pressed with business that the judges, with all the diligence they used, could not cope with the excess, and discharge their duties fully. The Court of Chancery, too, could only filly draw aid from a court, the decisions of which rested on similar principles of equity, and were analagous to its own, for though there were upon the benches of the Courts of King's-bench and (he believed) Common Pleas, individuals who had, at a former period of their lives, been eminent in Chancery practice, yet there was no Court in Westminster-hall, except the Court of Exchequer, which acted upon principles of equity; and so far from that

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court being able lo afford them the aid they required, there had been serious proposals for requiring an additional effective judge there, where the arrear of business was even more pressing than in the Court of Chancery; and the difficulties under which suitors laboured rather called for a legislative remedy of their own, than offered a resource. If the Court of Exchequer could not supply the want, no other court in Westminster-hall could. It was thought impossible therefore, that the remedy could be expected from any of the courts in Westminster-hall. It was very generally supposed, that the measure now proposed would be the means of causing innovations in the mode of conducting business in the Court of Chancery. Nothing could be more inconsistent with the principles on which the Bill was founded, than such a supposition. Such had been the growth of legal business since the two unions which had been so happily effected between England with Scotland and Ireland, and the consequent increase of the industry and wealth of the whole kingdom. If judges had struggled under this press of business so long, it was only a proof of their diligence and zeal, as well as of their integrity. The measure proposed would be the smallest departure from ancient practice, and so little of an innovation, that in lieu of giving the Chancellor the privilege of calling in the assistance of the nine puisne judges, together with two masters in Chancery, as he now might do, it gave him a permanent instead of a temporary assistance. It was a mere change to this extent. The Chancellor had now the privilege of calling in the assistance of the Master of the Rolls; and when he assisted the Chancellor, he was as much under the direction of the Chancellor as the judges under a commission, or the Vice-Chancellor proposed. The object of the Bill was to afford to the Lord Chancellor a permanent, instead of a temporary assistance in the transaction of the business of the Court of Chancery. The affording assistance in the transaction of business, certainly did not imply any innovation in the mode of transacting it; and the very reverse of innovation was the object of the measure then under discussion. The functions of the officer whom it was proposed to appoint, were not different from those who were appointed commissioners, and he repeated it, that when the Master of the Rolls was
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able notwithstanding the pressure of his business to assist the Lord Chancellor, the assistance which he afforded was not different from that which would be given by the new officer. The objection which was made, by comparing the evil which the Bill would produce with that which it would remedy, instead of really operating against the Bill, was a powerful argument in its favour. For after a fair comparative view of the two evils, the magnitude of that which it remedied, was so strikingly contrasted with the diminutive nature of the evil which it could produce, that there was little room for hesitating to decide in favour of the Bill. He had formerly mentioned that the present measure would not cause any additional expence to the public, though it would be productive of so great benefit to the suitors in Chancery. It had been alleged that it would, but he should be able to satisfy the House that it would be no such expence; and the question for the House was, whether, with these advantages to the suitor, with the removal of the evil complained of, and with no better plan proposed, the House should hesitate to send this plan to a committee to be examined more in detail, and to advise upon any better measure which should present itself. One half of the ex-pence of the office would be charged on the profits of the Lord Chancellor, in the business of the court; the other half was to be taken from what was called the dead cash, or suitors' fund, the annual revenue of which, at that time, was 9,000 l. The revenue of that fund had, on various occasions been applied, under the authority of parliament, for analogous purposes, and could not certainly be devoted to any better use than the support of that officer whose appointment was in contemplation. The fund consisted of unclaimed monies in Chancery, which had been suffered to accumulate at interest. The salaries of the Masters in Chancery, and of superannuated masters and other officers, were-paid out of it; and the income of 9,000 l. per annum, to which he had alluded, was its present clear revenue unappropriated. Thus, as far as related to economy, there could be no objection to the Bill. It had been said, that there were other means by which the object of the Bill could be more effectually attained, than by the adoption of the measure which it proposed. And one of those means was, to take away the management of the bankruptcy business from the Lord Chancellor. Without

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taking into consideration the fundamental principles, that this business should not be separated from the Lord Chancellor, and even allowing that it might with propriety-be taken away from him, still it would he necessary to have a Vice-Chancellor. For as to the particular jurisdiction of the bankruptcy business, none required greater attention on account of its difficulty and its intricacy. It was so particularly important in a commercial country, that it would be highly dangerous to trust the decision, on business of such weight, to any authority subordinate to that of the Lord Chancellor. To separate, therefore, this branch of business from the office of Chancellor, would be to remove that function, which, in his opinion, was most essential to it, and would have a tendency to separate the equity of Chancery, from the equity of the country. It had been objected that, in the distribution of the business in the Court of Chancery, the Bill enabled the Lord Chancellor to direct the whole at his pleasure; that he might allow the Vice-Chancellor to decide upon matters of such difficulty, that no authority short of the Lord Chancellor himself, should have been allowed to make a decision; or that he might only intrust to him causes of minor importance, and that such a power would degrade the character of the new magistrate. To this he would answer, that the possible abuse of a practical good ought not to be alledged as an argument against it, and that it ought on the contrary, to be presumed that the discretion thus vested in the first law officer of the country would be soundly exercised. He contended that the argument was untenable, because it went upon the abuse, and not the use of the measure proposed. It was needless to speak at large on the impropriety of supposing, that any man who should be vested in such an office as that of Lord Chancellor, ever could be guilty of such a breach of all the ties of duty and of honour—that he could ever so far abuse the power with which he was entrusted. Much had been said about the multiplicity of appeals which would be caused by the adoption of the measure before the House, and the creation of an intermediate jurisdiction. But it was too much the interest of the suitors to have their causes quickly decided, to be supposed they would venture on the tedious repetition of their suits by making appeals against the decision of any judge, particularly of such an officer as the Vice-Chan-
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cellor, and it might be added, that the Lord Chancellor would have the power to put at once before himself such causes as were most likely to be made matter of appeal. At any rate, the objection did not apply with greater force here than it did to the courts of the Master of the Rolls, and the puisne judges acting under a commission: and surely the power of distributing business was such an additional instrument of discharging the great functions of the office, as counterbalanced the evils arising from the presumed increase of appeals. It had been urged, that the measure would transform the Lord Chancellor from the first law authority in the kingdom, to a mere state magistrate, and this was said on the suspicion, that he would intrust the decision of matters of importance to the Vice-Chancellor. Never was there an opinion more unfounded, nay (without disrespect he said it), never more absurd, than to suppose a Chancellor would abdicate his judicial character; the honour and responsibility of the situation were sufficient security against such an event. If the principle of arguing on suspicion were carried to any length, there was no reason why lord Ellenborough should not withdraw from the execution of the duties of his situation, and intrust the functions of his office to his assistants. Certainly lord Ellenborough was only bound to the performance of the duties of his office, by the ties similar to those which bound the Lord Chancellor, and he knew of no law which prevented his withdrawing himself entirely from the court; yet would any man alarm his mind with the possibility of such an event? Was it not a suspicion equally chimerical, to suppose that the Lord Chancellor would walk about the streets doing nothing, and leave his business to be transacted by his Vice-Chancellor: nor was it less unlikely that he would absent himself from parliamentary causes. It would be wrong in the House to legislate on such principles. In Ireland business was so arranged that the Master of the Rolls afforded the same assistance to the Lord Chancellor which was here proposed to be given by the Vice-Chancellor, and this arrangement was made, in consequence of a Bill which he had brought into that House. When that Bill creating such regulation was first proposed, objections had been made to it, similar to those now started to the Bill before the House. The object which both the Bills had in view was similar, namely, to

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provide an auxiliary instrument to the Lord Chancellor, and it was then said, as now, that the Chancellor (lord Clare) would become a mere state-officer. The best answer to this objection was furnished by the conduct of the four distinguished persons who had since that period filled that high situation. Not one of the eminent characters had ever withdrawn one moment of their time from their judicial business for political purposes, or ever used the assistance of the Master of the Rolls except as an auxiliary. Experience proved that the object had been attained in the case of the former Bill, so that it was but rational to conclude that the object should be effectually accomplished by the Bill then under the consideration of the House.—Some persons had said that the whole expences of the office of Vice-Chancellor should be charged upon the emoluments which the Lord Chancellor derived from the business in the Court of Chancery. That noble lord had stated, at the very commencement of the enquiry, that he wished for no profit which was not purchased by beneficial labour; yet when the importance and dignity of the office were considered, and when the magnitude of the labour attendant on the execution of the duties of it were duly estimated, it would be found to be but reasonable that the Lord Chancellor should reap the fruits of his honest labour, and should live with becoming splendor. He should have the means of providing for his family, for it was to be remembered, that there was much risk and uncertainty in the time during which it might be his fortune to continue in office. The pension of 4,000 l. to ex-chancellors was by no means sufficient of itself for this purpose, and it should be remembered that there were many distinguished noblemen, who owed the origin of their rank, and the wealth of their families, to the provision which their ancestors had been able to derive from their dignified labour, while they had filled the office of Lord Chancellor. It seemed to be reasonable that this office should be endowed more liberally than any other; and that its income should not be looked upon with jealousy. It ought to be so considered, because it was liable to greater cares and to more political uncertainty than any other judicial situations which were held, during life, at least during good behaviour. Under these circumstances he hoped that the House would not think of making any encroachments
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upon the revenues derived by the Lord Chancellor from his office. The measure, therefore, being charged with no public expence, calculated as it was to remedy two evils, and coming recommended as it did by the sanction of all the legal characters in the upper House, seemed to be of such a nature that all parties would allow it to go into a committee for further consideration. His lordship concluded by moving the order of the day for the second reading of the Bill.
Mr. Bankesrose and observed, that the noble lord had endeavoured to render his measure agreeable to one portion at least of the House; and to none more than himself, by stating that it would be attended by no public expence. Highly, however, as he prized this part of the scheme, he could not approve of it unless it had other distinct merits. In all matters of innovation, two things were to be considered; first, whether the evil were of an alarming size; secondly, whether the remedy was likely to be efficient, and answer its purpose. In the present case, he allowed, that a deplorable evil existed; the grievance was of such a nature, that though justice was supposed, proverbially, to exalt her head, and flourish in this country, yet the delays of her administration had been such as to come little short of a denial. Yet he should do wrong to rest satisfied with a remedy that was not at once comprehensive and constitutional. If the Bill intended merely to provide a temporary remedy for a temporary pressure of business, it might, perhaps, with some modifications, be more generally agreeable; but when it was proposed to introduce a permanent innovation into the administration of justice, the House should pause, unless it were demonstrated, that the remedy provided was the best possible remedy. It might be said, that a pressing grievance required a speedy remedy; but in his mind, the time would be well spent, and the delay wisely protracted, which should be dedicated to the consideration of a measure more calculated to answer its purposes, and less liable to objections on constitutional grounds. His opinions were sufficiently known on the subject of economy; but whenever economy alone was opposed to measures of a more substantial nature, it ought undoubtedly to give way. His objection to the present Bill was, that the remedy proposed would be found totally insufficient for the purpose for which it was intended, and it was

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a most deplorable state for a country like this to be in, that the delays in the Court of Chancery and House of Lords were such as to amount almost to a denial of justice. It had been stated, that the project came recommended by all the gravity and knowledge of the upper House. That branch of the legislature had thought proper to discuss the principle of a measure which he had sent up to them, and he should now hold himself at liberty to examine the wisdom of the principles on which the present Bill was founded. He should first examine its preamble. Although the House of Peers there stated that Writs of Error, and Appeals to parliament, had greatly increased in their House; and although they stated that the delay was heavy on the suitor, and was a stigma on the justice of the country, there was not one word as to how they were to be enabled to attend more frequently to that branch of their duty; but as a remedy, they said, they would relieve another person in another court. But, provided the House were to adopt this measure, had they any power to procure the attendance of noble lords? It did not appear that they would have any reasonable expectation of a better attendance in that House than in times past. The noble lord who presided had no power to compel the attendance of the Lords. He had not found the other peers as yet willing to co-operate with him: Would attendance be more palatable, because more frequent? In that House (the Commons) they were obliged to compel the attendance of the members; but he believed the House of Lords did not exercise any such power; that the summons sent on some occasions, was a mere matter of form which their lordships might either obey, or not, as they pleased. But the House of Peers might also enforce the attendance of their members, and the arrear of causes required a much more diligent attendance. At present there was no regular mode of enforcing their attendance: they attended in consequence of a summons if they pleased, and neglected to attend if they pleased. The House of Lords was scandalously dilatory. It was in the recollection of many persons now in that House (who were managers of the impeachment of Mr. Hastings), how small a portion of time was allotted by the House of Peers to that trial, although the eyes of the country were upon them. The delay was to the debasement of the justice of the
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country, and it was now impossible to carry on an impeachment on any complicated question. The author of this Bill had so far forgotten the privileges of that House, as in a publication of his, to make a charge of delay upon it, and to state, that the conduct of the House of Commons was reprehensible, and all the loss of time on the Bill was to be attributed to them. This was an indignity upon that House, which would not have been borne in better times. But they had not lost any time in proceeding with the Bill. The consequence of the proposed alteration would be, that the business of the Court of Chancery would be done by a person inferior in learning and abilities to the present Lord Chancellor, and that the business of Appeals would stand still as at present, la a short space of time it would make the Lord Chancellor a less effective officer than he now was. It might be depended on as certain, that men in general were not very ready to do what others would do for them. The Lord Chancellor would therefore, in a short space of time, be in a different situation from that in which he had been for many years. In seeking a person to fill that situation hereafter, the first lawyer would not be sought out, but the first politician in the country. If the Chancellor were to excel as a politician, and be admirable as a debater, he would naturally think that he might safely leave the decision of causes to persons with more legal skill but less ability as debaters. He would have, no doubt, the assistance of the two ablest lawyers, as his Master of the Rolls and Vice-Chancellor, and on them the admirable debater and party-man would repose for the execution of his legal duties. By such a plan, the Chancellor would not gain any time for hearing Appeals, but would have less. This was a great objection to the Bill.—It was intended that every part of the business which was to be transacted by deputy should be open to appeal. To whom? To the Chancellor himself, a considerable portion of whose time was consumed in the present state of things by Appeals from the Rolls. And it could not be supposed that there would be fewer Appeals from the Vice-Chancellor, who was to be an officer inferior to the Master of the Rolls, and with whose decisions it could not be expected that suitors would be better satisfied than with the Master of the Rolls at present. It was impossible to find a man for the situation of Vice-Chan-

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cellor of more learning, talents, or weight, than the Master of the Rolls, and it was therefore evident that by the creation of this new officer a multiplication of Appeals would be created, and this was a great evil, from the additional expence and delay which it must occasion.—The consequence of such appointment would be, that those questions which at present were settled before the Chancellor, for the most part finally, would first be heard by the Vice-Chancellor, and then be brought by appeal before that learned lord, and thus the appointment would be attended with great additional expence, and would not relieve the Chancellor. In his opinion, there were other resources, besides those narrow remedies to which it was wished to confine the measure. He did not see the same radical objections to the separation of the office of Speaker of the House of Lords and Lord Chancellor, which the noble mover did. He did not mean to say that this was desirable, but there might be circumstances sufficient to render it necessary as a temporary measure. He knew that Mr. Pitt had at one time an intention to introduce such a measure, although he had not thought fit to proceed. Why he afterwards departed from his intention of carrying it into execution, he really did not know; but his authority was as good perhaps as that of the noble lord. The House of Lords were not in the same situation as the other House, with regard to the appointment of a Speaker. There was no necessity for their having a particular person in the chair, as was the case with the Commons. They frequently appointed a temporary Speaker under peculiar circumstances. Lord Mansfield frequently presided in the House of Lords, and when the great seal was in commission, a Speaker was always appointed temporarily. To him it appeared, that the Lord Chancellor might receive more assistance in Chancery from that eminent person the Master of the Rolls than he did at present. He might be allowed to decide causes there in the absence of the Lord Chancellor in the House of Lords, and sit in the Court of Chancery while the chief officer of that Court was engaged in hearing appeals. Were there not, too, matters of course which occupied a great portion of the valuable time of the Lord Chancellor, that might be discharged adequately by existing officers of the Court? There were no doubt cases in bankruptcies of a very complicated and difficult nature; but it
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was not precisely the fact, as was stated, that bankruptcy causes in general required all the talents of the learned lord. If a new officer were appointed, he should be appointed to some great branch of what belonged to the Chancellor, by which the Chancellor would be really relieved. There were many persons practising in the courts of law and equity fully adequate to the determination of such matters, and fully equal to grapple with and discharge those duties. He could not understand what the noble lord meant, by saying there was an intention of adding a fifth judge to the Court of Exchequer. It might add to the wisdom, but could not add to the number of decisions of the Court.—In appointing a person to a situation which was to be not superior to that of Lord Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench, but superior to the office of Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, and the Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer, he would not begin by degrading him. But the present Bill did not make him a deputy, but a drudge. He was obliged to sit when he was ordered to do so, and was not permitted to do any thing of his own will. They were alarmed, lest he should break the trammels with which they have surrounded him. This unfortunate man could make no order, no decree, without the leave of the Chancellor,—could not revise, or over-rule any thing done by the Chancellor, without special authority,—and was to obey such orders as the Chancellor had already made, or should hereafter make. He was to receive little emolument from his master, the Chancellor, who appeared to have given little, and to have retained much—Here the hon. gentleman proceeded to quote certain passages of the Bill, by which the Vice-Chancellor was discharged from officiating, unless specially authorized by the Lord Chancellor, and by which he was to proceed at such times and in such manner and form us the learned lord should think fit. He was also to be paid like a drudge who did all the work and got very little pay from his master. He thought that the person who filled the office of Lord Chancellor ought to be liberally, nobly, and honourably paid, not only to enable him to support his exalted situation in splendour, but to secure such a provision for his children, as would enable them to appear as the children of a peer. He did not say that the Lord Chancellor was at present too

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liberally paid. But the portion which was allotted to the Vice-Chancellor from the emoluments of the Lord Chancellor was altogether so small and niggardly, that it would be better to take nothing from him at all, and that a suitable provision should be made from some other source. Before he concluded, he wished to suggest whether the taking away intermediate appeals from the Master of the Rolls might not be a measure that would be attended with beneficial consequences? There was one argument, too, against the offices of Chancellor and Speaker of the House of Lords being vested in the same person, which was deserving of notice, n all appeals to the House of Lords from the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chancellor was of all persons the last who ought to sit in that House as the presiding and most efficient judge. The hon. gentleman concluded with moving as an Amendment. That the Bill be taken into consideration that day six months.
Mr. Macdonaldobserved, that the Bill professed to be the best remedy that could be devised for an evil felt to exist, the stagnation of the legal business in the House of Lords. And what was this remedy?—to completely new model the Court of Chancery, a court, the transactions in which were so deeply interesting to the public. With respect to the delays which had taken place in the Court of Chancery itself, and the consequent arrear of causes, they were ascribed by different people to different causes: while some attributed them to the indecision of the noble and learned lord now at the head of that court, or to the interruption which he experienced from his political and other avocations—avocations unprecedented in former times, and even in the earlier part of his own time,—others traced them solely and exclusively to the general increase of business in the Court of Chancery itself. He would abstain from comparing the number of decrees made by the present with the number made by former chancellors; but he would compare the remedies proposed for the existing evil. Undoubtedly, the conception of the Bill before the House was not very profound or ingenious. If any mechanic, who had more orders than he could execute, were to complain to his neighbour that he had more business than he could attend to, the answer would certainly be," get a journeyman:" and what more did the present Bill propose: but
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that which might be very suitable to an ordinary case was quite inapplicable to the delicate and important functions under consideration. The question was, from what part of his duties the Lord Chancellor might be relieved with the least risk to the public service? Why had the Chancellor been always considered as the highest individual in the profession?—because the law of the Chancery Court was lex non scripta: it was a law created by the presiding power in the court. It was, therefore, that individuals, the most distinguished for their profound legal acquirements, had always been selected to fill that high office. A long and continuous chain of these illustrious men, by supporting and confirming their mutual decisions, had succeeded in erecting a system by which they had established the property of the country, and secured to it a code of equity pure and unrivalled. If parliament were to break through this prescriptive wisdom; if they were to dismiss from the Court of Chancery the mace and the great seal; to overturn every thing that had been achieved, and substitute some inferior authority, who could foretell the dangers that might ensue: And, let the amount of these dangers be what it might, was it evident that the object of the Bill would be effected r The supporters of the Bill were placed in this dilemma:—if there was to be no appeal from the new officer about to be created to the Lord Chancellor, then would arise the evils of submitting such a jurisdiction to an inferior legal authority. If there was to be an appeal, on what rational ground could the House suppose that any one would be satisfied with a decision of less weight than that of the Chancellor, and therefore how would his business be lessened? In the one case, therefore, the Bill would prove mischievous, in the other nugatory. It would afford no relief, or it would be productive of two delays instead of one; the oracle would be got at at last. In his opinion the bankruptcy, which had little to do with the Chancery business, might easily be separated from the duties of the Lord Chancellor, and be entrusted to some other tribunal. Any common law judge was adequate to discharge this part of the duty. From the time of Henry 8, to that of James 1, it had been under the superintendance of privy counsellors. At the present day it occupied a fourth, some said even a third of the time of the Chancellor: and if it were not for this, they

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would have no occasion to be now discussing the merits of the Bill in question. The hours so taken up might be most advantageously employed in what a noble and learned lord (Redesdale) had justly termed the "proper" business of the Court of Chancery as a court of equity. If any difficulty existed with respect to persons competent to this office, he thought it might easily be removed. He agreed that the judges of the courts in Westminster Hall were already sufficiently occupied; but there were the Welsh judges, of any one of whom it might be fairly said, that he was helping the other to do nothing. There were eight of them—four of whom, he thought, might well be spared to conduct the bankruptcy business, while the other four were amply sufficient to discharge, without inconveniency, all the judicial functions in that country. It might be urged that the Lord Chancellor derived a large portion of his emoluments from the bankrupt cases. It was so; but this was a precarious and most undignified source of revenue, and he was persuaded that parliament would compensate that great law officer for any injury that he might sustain, in consequence of a new arrangement, and the country would not think him overpaid for his important services, by a salary of 16 or 18,000 l. Such a sum was indeed necessary, in order to enable him to maintain that salutary splendour demanded by his exalted station. The measure lie had proposed, he recommended not as the best possible measure, but as one infinitely preferable to the present. He was convinced that there were various modes by which the existing evil might be fully met. Parliament were not compelled to take the nostrum prescribed to them, or submit to the continuance of the disease. He had no faith whatever in the proposed specific: but if the only alternative was, to adopt the Bill before the House, or to allow the continuance of the present delays, much as he lamented the latter, as deeply injurious to the interests of individuals, and nationally disgraceful, he would not consent to purchase an exemption from them at the price demanded. Let the House contemplate the situation of the officer to be created by the Bill. Instead of being an independent judge, he would be subject to the will, pleasure, humour, and caprice of another: he would have his daily task set him. There was not a sheriff or a coroner in the island, who would not oc-
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cupy a prouder station than this Chancellor's drudge, with his train-bearer, and all his paraphernalia. He would be a new character in the constitution—a vassal judge! a judge, whose duties would be prescribed to him by another! These were harsh sounds in Great Britain in the 19th century; and besides, what a precedent would thus be afforded! If any arrear of business should, at a future period, accumulate in the Court of King's Bench, on what pretence could parliament refuse to the great legal luminary of that court his judicial satellite?—By acceding to the Bill on the table, the House would give to a subject a power which had been withheld from the sovereign, and would declare, that that which was considered dangerous in the hands of the sovereign, became safe when placed in the hands of one of his servants. Such, he conceived, would be the necessary operation of the Bill, which he felt it his duty to oppose, from the firm conviction, that it would impair the purity of the administration of equity, and pervert the integrity of the dispensation of justice. He hoped and trusted, therefore, that the House would agree to the amendment proposed by the hon. gentleman who had preceded him.
Mr. Stephenobserved that the light manner in which the question was taken up, appeared to his mind not at all consistent with the weight and magnitude of the subject. From the consideration of the facts contained in the reports, and which other gentlemen had not perhaps brought into a proper focus for their observation, it appeared to him important to draw the attention of the House to the magnitude of the evil which it was the object of the present Bill to remedy. The delay that necessarily followed from the over pressure of public business was acknowledged to be so great as to amount, in some cases, to a denial of justice. This was a grievance to which no British subject ought to be exposed. Let them look to the state of the case. There were not less than 273 appeals now depending before the high and supreme tribunal of the country, one of which was hanging over, without decision, for not less than 20 years; seven for 11 years; 39 for above seven years; and 77 for above five years. From a calculation made in 1810, the average number of Appeals decided annually was 10, and, on that principle, what with new Appeals, it would take 46 years before the whole could be disposed of. This denial of jus-

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tice was dreadful; yet it had been known to that House for two years, and no proposal had been made to apply a remedy by those gentlemen who opposed the present measure. If any gentleman then present was at all inclined to commiseration, it must be called forth in such cases, in which might be involved the dearest interests of whole families, and in which, after trying every mode of settlement, it was, after all, at the option of any opponent to embark in a contention, in which at least 20 years might elapse under an incapacity of knowing whether the fortune for which he contended, however justly, was to come to a man or not. In the supreme court of judicature the evil was much greater than in any of the inferior courts. It appeared from the same return to which he alluded, that the Appeals entered amounted to not less than 405, and that an increase of 204 had taken place within 10 years. If the business were allowed to go on in this manner, it would have this effect, that Appeals would never be brought upon fair and reasonable grounds; but that any party, desirous of delay, could adopt no better means for that object, than by having recourse to an Appeal. It was impossible to state a case which called more loudly for a remedy. The evil was allowed to exist; and yet the remedy proposed for it was opposed, and no other offered as a substitute. If gentlemen were so very inimical to the appointment of a Vice-Chancellor, he would ask what substitute had they to propose? They could not propose that judges, who had already more than an adequate task to perform in their respective courts, should be the substitutes for the Chancellor. When he considered the intense application, the great labours, and the eminent talents requisite to fulfil the duties of those who presided over the administration of justice, he would not hesitate to say, that he had cause to lament the parsimony of the country in the appointments and rewards of judicial characters. He was surprised at his hon. friend saying that it was not his duty to propose any such remedy. He stated, indeed, a variety of expedients, but did not select any in particular. He would notice some of his hon. friend's expedients. One was, that a better attendance in the Lords, together with the assistance of some Ex-chancellor, would supply an adequate remedy, but by what means was an Ex-chancellor to be required to sacrifice his
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time? And even though that could be done, the same inconvenience would follow which was objected to the present Bill. He spoke of the danger of appealing from a more experienced to a less experienced officer. The very same objection applied to the assistance of an Ex-chancellor, who, perhaps, for ten years before, was not in the habit of hearing any such Appeals. With respect to the compulsion of the Lords to attend, it would be rather singular if a Bill were brought into that House for such an object. In the days appointed for the decision of Appeals, it was stated, that the Lord Chancellor could not procure a sufficient number of lords to proceed to business. He doubted whether such attendance could be procured, even in that House, at so early an hour as 10 in the morning. With respect to another remedy alluded to, of separating the duties of the Chancellor, the inconvenience of such a measure, he thought, was very obvious; and the separation of the bankrupt jurisdiction was the very last that should be attempted. Were gentlemen aware, that from the Chancellor's decision in bankruptcy there was no appeal? As to the suspicion of neglect of duty which would follow from the division of the duties of the office, it was without any foundation. The exercise of great talents and great power carried its own recommendation with it. There was no such character as an idle judge. All the other courts were in arrear, as well as the House of Lords, though the judges were of all men the greatest drudges in business. But besides this, the Lord Chancellor and his assistant might sometimes lay down the rule in different ways, which would introduce the utmost uncertainty and confusion. The decrees of the Chancellor in bankrupt cases, were for very good purposes considered final; and such an innovation as that alluded to must be extremely dangerous. Did they not know that there were failures in trade now, not to the amount of 20 or 30,000 l. but sometimes to the amount even of 1,000,000 l.? In such cases no appeal was allowed, because the distribution of the property of the bankrupt might be suspended by that means, and an enormous mass of property be kept in abeyance, which must be the source of incalculable mischief to creditors. Such a remedy was the most inadmissible of all, and he would say even the most absurd. In former times it was no uncommon case for the puisne judges to be called in, for the

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purpose of assisting the Chancellor, and if lord Eldon did not call them in to his assistance, it was because they had sufficient business in their respective courts. He denied that it was any infraction of the constitution to introduce the present measure; and instanced the increase of the number of judges in the court of Common Pleas from three to six after the Charter of king John down to the reign of Henry 8, as a precedent. Neither had the judges of the present time the leisure which they formerly enjoyed. Sir Matthew Hale could find a season of relaxation from his judicial functions in which to pursue his studies and amusements, but no judge upon the bench could now allow himself any such indulgence. He regretted that the law establishments in the country were insufficient for the mass of business, and that the time of the judges was too much occupied in their duties. Here he begged leave to call the attention of the House to a book which he recently had occasion to read, and which, in point of authority, maintained a distinguished and undisputed rank. He alluded to the work written by sir W. Fortescue, in the reign of Henry the 6th—" De Laudibus Legum Angliæ." That author stated, that only three hours, from eight to eleven in the forenoon, were occupied by the courts in the administration of justice, the rest of the time they spent either in the study of the laws or in reading the scriptures. If such a system were to prevail, what would become of the due administration of justice at present? How very different would be the situation of lord Ellenbrough! The truth was, that with the progress of time circumstances had essentially changed, which required an alteration in the constitution of the authorities of the country. In fact, the number of judges remained the same, though the business had increased out of all proportion. Soon after king John's Charter, the number of judges in the King's-bench was increased from three to six; and in after times five judges frequently sat in the Common Pleas. The measure now proposed, was not a greater innovation than those to which he alluded. As matters stood at present, there was reason to apprehend, that causes would be too hastily decided, and haste was generally, or at least often the parent of mistake. This was also, in a great measure, the situation of the common law courts. It was said that the supporters of the Bill had shifted their ground, for that
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the evil to be removed was said, at one time to exist in the Court of Chancery, at another time in the House of Lords. It was not asserted by any person that there was not a great increase of business in the Court of Chancery. The suitors' money in that court had increased from 1,000,000 l. to 35,500,063 l. seven million of which had arisen since the year 1800, and ten million since 1780. The commercial business depending in that court did not amount to less than 25,000,000 l. This was not even an adequate representation of the fact. He hoped the House was now fully persuaded of the evil of delay, and that they would see the necessity of appointing an assistant to discharge a part of those burthens which had nearly doubled since the time of lord Hardwicke. A remedy was absolutely demanded by the circumstances he had staled, and be trusted gentlemen would feel the necessity of applying it where it was most wanted. For his own part, he entirely approved' of the measure offered, and concluded by observing, that he was persuaded whoever had the proposed jurisdiction vested in him would add dignity to the office.
Mr. W. Courtenayopposed the present Bill, to which he had the most serious objections. He did not deny that the evil existed, and that a remedy should be applied; but he thought it should be more efficacious than that proposed by the Bill, which was much more extensive than the nature of the case required. He would now assume, whether justly or not, that the remedy proposed was two-fold: one for the evil said to exist in the Court of Chancery, and the other for that said to exist in the House of Lords. With respect to the first, it was not easy to state how far those invested with the highest judicial functions could or could not, ought or ought not to conform to the judicial character. The different other expedients which had been suggested, had their apology in the taunting manner in which those who opposed this Bill had been called upon to substitute some other project in its place; and, therefore, he would suggest a remedy that had not hitherto been mentioned. In the House of Lords great part of the appeals, at least four-fifths, were from Scotland, and in cases where the decision must turn upon the facts, and not upon the law. The appeal in those cases was from a jurisdiction which had an opportunity of knowing the facts, to one which had not such an opportunity. Most lawyers, he believed

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found it difficult to see why an appeal, in matters of fact, was necessary to a higher tribunal. In England the Appeals were only upon questions of law, and many of the most eminent lawyers thought that this regulation might with advantage be extended to Scotland. If this were done, a great proportion of the Scotch Appeals would be cut off, and the pressure would in a great measure be withdrawn, while some temporary expedient might be adopted to get rid of the present arrear. This was not the proper time, nor did he feel himself competent to propose a remedy, he merely alluded to a mode by which great assistance could be rendered to the justice of the country. With regard to the observation of his hon. and learned friend near him (Mr. Stephen) that it might be difficult to procure the attendance of the members of this House at so early an hour as 10 o'clock, he reminded him, that several bodies of the members did actually sit at that hour upon committees, and he saw no good reason why the Lords should not also enforce attendance at an early hour, if necessary for the purposes of justice. But if it was really impossible to procure such an attendance, how did this Bill remedy that evil?—He next called the attention of the House to the state of the arrears in the Exchequer, which was as formidable an evil as the arrears in the Court of Chancery. This being notorious, it would be unworthy of the legislature, when employed in providing a remedy for an evil of this nature, to pass over the state of the arrears in the Exchequer, with out notice. A general comprehensive remedy ought to be applied; this narrow measure was utterly inefficient. It hardly created a judge at all. It was an intire innovation, in point of principle, in the administration of justice; for when a suitor set down his cause for the purpose of having the opinion of the Chancellor in the first instance, it would depend upon the arbitrium of the Chancellor whether the suitor should have it or not. With regard to the separation of bankruptcy causes from the other business of the Court, he was far from agreeing with those who thought that such a separation would yield no material relief. He was convinced it would; for the business in cases of bankruptcy now constituted a very considerable proportion of the whole business of the Court.
Mr. Smyththought it was incumbent on the House not simply to ascertain that the
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evil existed, but to inquire into the nature, extent, and origin of it. In doing this, they would find that the evil in its present magnitude arose from the number of Appeals from Scotland. Why, then, not advert to this fact, and look for the remedy in the country from whence it came, in a reform of the Scottish law. It was true that out of the whole number of Appeals, the enormous proportion of 4 5ths were from Scotland. From the first report it appeared that out of 253 Appeals, 200 were from that country. The Bill, in his opinion, was prematurely brought forward. Two acts had been passed which must contribute to lessen the number of Appeals from the Court of Session of Scotland. The operation of these acts could not be yet sufficiently known, and it was on this account that he considered the Bill premature. It was not known, nor could it be yet known, whether the evil proposed to be removed was temporary or permanent. He could not look upon the Bill as tending to less than a dissolution of the first judicial officer of the country. With respect to the Appeals in the Lords, 19 out of 20 were merely vexatious, and many of the Scotch Appeals were merely on account of delay. The attendance of a sufficient number of lords could, in his opinion, be secured by a compulsory order of their own. It was said that the increase of business in the Court of Chancery and the House of Lords, arose from the increase of wealth. For his part, he thought it depended more on the unsettled state of the law, and on the distresses of the nation. He conjured the House not to loosen the only tie which bound the Chancellor to the people. The number of motions did not, in his mind, furnish any reason for the delay in passing from one to another. It was well known that any sudden check to wealth, particularly to commercial wealth, occasioned an increase of litigation. It was asserted, that no mischief could arise from thus withdrawing a part of his duties from the Chancellor. It would at least lessen his intercourse with the public; and that daily and hourly intercourse was, in his opinion, one of the most effectual means for preserving him in the discharge of those duties.
Mr. Serjeant Bestthought there was no measure more likely to produce the desired effect than that now before the House. It was said truly from the opposite side, that the number of Appeals

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amounted nearly to a denial of justice. The hon. gentleman who spoke last, thought that a permanent remedy was not necessary, because there was a probability that the Scotch Appeals would be considerably lessened; but he did not consider the great number that was already depending from that country, and that those from Ireland were to be added, which amounted at present to 52. He saw no likelihood that Appeals would decrease, because litigation always augmented with the augmentation of property. It was said, that this Bill would alter the character of the Chancellor; and that he would become, in consequence of it, nothing more than a state officer. But the House should not forget the weight of legal duties that would still remain upon him—that he would sit for the discharge of business three days in every week during the session of parliament, and every day when parliament was not sitting. With respect to the separation of the business of bankrupts from the Lord Chancellor, it was liable to most grave and insurmountable objections. If his bankruptcy jurisdiction were to be withdrawn, no greater innovation could be introduced; bankruptcy proceeded from the great seal, and to change it would be to introduce a change in the original jurisdiction. Another reason against such an innovation was, that in cases of bankruptcy there ought to be no appeal, from the necessity there existed of distributing as speedily as possible the property of the bankrupt. They could not, therefore, entrust this most important function to an inferior officer, or place the decision of so great a mass of property in any hands less elevated than the first law authority of the state. Upon these grounds, he thought nothing better could be at present proposed than the Bill before the House, and he would therefore give it his support.
Mr. M. A. Taylorobserved, that no notice had been taken in the House of Lords of the arrears of business in the Court of Chancery previous to a motion which he made about two years ago. He did not then propose his plan as a perfect one, but as one which might be improved. The great delay of justice, he affirmed, at that time, was, in fact, a denial of justice. Lord Mansfield formerly sat for lord Thur-low, as temporary Speaker of the House of Lords; and why might not a temporary Speaker be now appointed? In his opinion, it became the House to repel an in-
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sinuation which had been thrown out against them as the Commons of England, which imputed to them some of the delays which had taken place. He declared it to be his intention to vote for postponing the further consideration of the Bill. This measure, he contended, would be attended with inconveniencies which might have been avoided had the course been pursued, which, on a former occasion, he had recommended. He thought it would be well for the House to pause, and to consider if some more effectual remedy could not be devised. The present measure was so inadequate, that had he not known from what quarter it came, he should have imagined it had originated with some country attorney, who had never seen the Court of Chancery. If any lawyer would take upon himself to say the Bill before the House would remedy the evil complained of, he would vote for it. [An hon. member here called out "I will."] Mr. Taylor, however, declined taking his opinion on the subject, and stated the impression on his mind to be such, that it could not be removed by the decision of all the Courts of Westminster.
Mr. Canning, thinking it inexpedient that this Bill should pass into a law, was desirous of stating his objections to it; and should do so very briefly, as the arguments which had been urged in favour of the Bill were so few in number, and so small in measure, as to require very little refutation. It seemed to be maintained, that the members of this House were not fit judges of such a question. If that disqualification were supposed to apply generally, much more forcibly must it apply to those members (of which he was one) who could boast of no means of forming a judgment but plain sense unadorned with legal learning. He must however protest against any such plea in bar of their discussions; and must deny that the lay part of the House were implicitly to adopt the dicta of certain learned personages in matter not of law, but of regulation. He yielded all respect possible to the House of Lords, but could not consent to pass the Bill they had sent down without examination. Some considerations indeed there were which might perhaps tend to diminish in this particular instance the general respect due to the authority of their lordships. It appeared, on the very, face of the Bill, that it arose out of arrears in their lordships jurisdiction. They might be better judges of the extent of the evil;

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but if the evil lay with them, the Commons ought not to exercise the less jealousy in examination of the remedy proposed.
A learned friend of his had set out with rebuking an excess of levity, and a want of grave consideration on this subject; but he should have been aware, that the sources of ridicule were not merely in things which were in themselves ridiculous, but also in the attempted approximation of things which were in themselves irreconcilable,—in the comparison of lofty pretensions, with paltry means,—in the contrast of magnificent promises and prospects with the total inadequacy of the mode suggested for following up and realizing them. If the Bill was to be considered as the result of all the experience and wisdom of the other House, undoubtedly on that ground and in that character it was to be received with the greatest reverence; but it was found that all this learned labour had only produced an office, which the legal profession must treat with contempt; then in spite of all pre-possessions in its favour, the ridicule against which his hon. and learned friend protested, might blamelessly or rather must infallibly attach to it.
The Bill said, that whereas great arrears had been accumulated, it was necessary to do so and so. The diminution of this accumulation might, to be sure, be accomplished in either of two ways; by clearing the reservoir at once, or by impeding the channel whence it was constantly supplied with so rapid a current. The Bill appeared to follow the latter of these two courses. Its most obvious and certain effect was to occasion all the causes in Chancery to be tried twice over, a process which must necessarily delay the proceedings of that court, and so check the vicious rapidity of the stream of Appeals which flowed from it into the House of Lords. If the tried wisdom, the high legal attainments, and pre-eminent authority of that great magistrate, who had been used to speak from the bench from which he (Mr. Canning) had now risen (Sir W. Grant); did not prevent constant appeals to the Lord Chancellor from his decisions as Master of the Rolls, it was idle to suppose that from the new Vice-Chancellor, new in office, new and unsettled in authority, and (be he who he may) probably far inferior to the present Master of the Rolls in legal knowledge and abilities, there would not be appeals to the
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Lord Chancellor in a far greater number. It was indeed attempted to be shewn, that this new creation would be similar to the Master of the Rolls: but there was this essential difference between the two magistracies. There was a choice allowed to the suitor to have his cause carried before the Master of the Rolls, or before the Lord Chancellor, and therefore it was the less likely that he should desire it to be reheard: but this Bill gave the Chancellor power to refuse hearing a case, and to send it to the Vice Chancellor, and in every case which was thus delegated from the Lord High Chancellor to his deputy, against the will and choice of the suitor, it was surely most natural to suppose that the suitor would desire a rehearing. Thus therefore the accumulation before the Lords might indeed be prevented from increasing so fast as at present, since every cause heard by the new magistrate would probably be heard again by the Lord Chancellor; and the suitor perhaps, might be sickened by this first appeal, and deterred from prosecuting a second to the House of Lords. But how would this device tend to the accomplishment of the professed object of the Bill, the allowing the Lord Chancellor more time for attendance in the House of Lords? After all, if the accumulation of Appeals in that House be the evil to be cured, why was not some remedy applied distinctly, and at once, to the seat of the evil? It was surely a derogation from the dignity of the House of Lords to suppose that they could not discharge the business before them; that their noble natures could not rise at nine o'clock to adjudge the causes at their bar; that with privileges so far surpassing those of other senates, they could not make an exertion for the discharge of these important duties which were annexed to such high privileges, and which justified and ennobled them in the eyes of their country and the world. (Hear.) Why should such reasonings apply to them more than to the Commons? The Lords admitted a delay amounting to a denial of justice. What degradation or shame could it be to the Lords to adopt with respect to their own proceedings some such coercive regulations as the Commons had adopted to secure their discharge of their own duty in cases of contested elections? The shame seemed to lie in stopping short between the removal of abuse, and the adoption of a remedy. Was it a problem so obscure, knotty, and

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difficult, to devise the means of securing a sufficient attendance in the other House, whatever skill it might have required to produce such a Bill as this? No! Let the House reject this Bill, and a better measure would be proposed in a very short time.
The learned Serjeant had appealed to their confession in behalf of this unhappy scrap of paper, as if it were the offspring of some infant member, who was employing his untried hand, in his first and crude effort to remedy some acknowledged evil, hoping that a committee would lick his unformed abortion into some sort of decent shape. Another learned gentleman thought they were treading on a sort of hallowed ground, and that we could not presume even to alter and amend the Bill, such as it was sent down to us, without a species of scandalum magnatum against the legislative wisdom of the House of Lords! The Bill, in fact, was all it could be. A committee was useless. It would offend the Lords more to send it back to them so changed, as it must necessarily be, if it was to be made useful to any good purpose whatever, than it would to reject it altogether, abstaining however at the same time with the utmost deference, from presuming to suggest any other method of proceeding in a case which appeared to be claimed as the peculiar province of their lordships; and leaving their lordships to go to work again upon a new plan better calculated for their own credit and the public satisfaction.
He begged pardon for any seeming levity, if he were guilty of any, in speaking with freedom of this strange project: but there were different moods in which different men viewed the same subjects: some might indulge in harmless merriment; others, (he did not see the learned gentleman, Mr. stephen, present)—(Cry of "under the gallery")—Others, then, (said Mr. C.) might view this mouse which the mountain had brought forth, with feelings quite "melancholy and gentleman like," like Master Stephen, in "Every Man in his Humour!" (Laughing.) For his own part he thought there could not be a graver subject than the due and speedy administration of justice: but on the other hand there could not be a more ludicrous association than that of high magisterial functions, and great official trust with all the circumstances of degradation and disparagement with which the new magistrate, procreated by
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this Bill, is to be invested. It was pretended, indeed, that the power of the Lord Chancellor to devolve business upon this new deputy was to be no other than that which he now has to call to his assistance any one of the Judges or Masters in Chancery named in the commission empowering them to sit for the Chancellor. Nothing could be more unlike. Compare the language of that commission, with that of this Bill, by which the Chancellor was to ring for his deputy. It would appear that the judges, when called upon, were really to sit for the Chancellor, to sit as the Chancellor; to do his business; to execute his functions, and the result was to be of as great validity, force, efficacy, and virtue, as if from the Chancellor himself. The new gentleman to be created was to have full power, &c, but "in such manner, nevertheless, and under such regulations and restrictions, as the Lord High Chancellor shall, from time to time, order and direct." If this was to be freedom, he wished to know what was servitude? If this was volition, what was coercion? What was such a judge, but a man sitting on the judgment-seat, fettered hand and foot? And was it possible to conceive that any decision of such a magistrate could be received as satisfactory, and acquiesced in as final? (Hear.) Conceive a melancholy client coming into court and directing his solicitor to take care that his cause is set down for hearing, not before that tedious indecisive judge, the Master of the Rolls, (Hear!) but before the Lord High Chancellor himself. Soon afterwards he hears that his cause is according to his direction before his lordship himself.—So much the better. At least the hearing will be final. Some time afterwards he is informed that his cause is decided against him—by whom? By the Lord Chancellor himself? No such thing: but by a judge under the constant direction and superintendance of the Chancellor, subject to his interference and controul, to his revisal, and reversal, or alteration.—What consolation would this be to the suitor—who had chosen the Lord Chancellor for his judge in preference to the Master of the Rolls for the express purpose of avoiding the necessity of an appeal, which would now be his only refuge? Was not this the meaning of the Bill?—He heard some murmurs near him, as if he were misrepresenting its tenour and purport. He certainly did not mean to misrepresent

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it. The advocates of the Bill had particularly praised it for its clearness. It was indeed overloaded with perspicuity, full of qualifications, and limitations and exceptions and provisoes, patching up one hole and making another to patch up in turn; and involved in inexplicable explanations. But after all was not the result, as he had stated it, that the Lord Chancellor might send causes he did not like to his Vice-Chancellor as he pleased, just as he would order away a corked bottle; was not the Vice-Chancellor to take whatever was sent to him—to abstain from whatever was not thus sent to him? To begin or to leave off, exactly when and where the Lord Chancellor pleased, at the beginning, or the middle, or end of a cause—just as might suit the Chancellor's fancy? Had he, or was he intended to have, any regular, known, fixed, intelligible, substantive province or authority? (Laugh.) Scrub, in the play, Mungo, in the farce, Sancho, in his island, were in a state of settled Jurisdiction compared with this new officer! If the form of his tribunal were copied from any thing at all, it must have been from Sancho in his little island! (Laugh.) It was to be a delegation by fits and snatches,—the offspring of the humours and leisures of the Chancellor, dealt out in bits and scraps of jurisdiction.
It really required more credulity than the authors of the Bill had a right to expect, to imagine that the Bill, even though it should receive the polishing hand of the learned serjeant, could ever answer the purposes for which it was intended. As an unlearned member of parliament, his vote should be against the introduction of a magistracy which it was not fit to create, it was not his fault that the proposition was so objectionable. They had a right to take time to consider this Bill; as the Lords had paused for eleven years before they hit upon this mode of remedying an inconvenience of such great and growing mischief. If indeed it was contended that they were not entitled to object to this plan, without having some other more perfect plan to propose; he would answer, that he had no doubt another plan might easily be devised; but he denied the necessity, or even the propriety of originating it in the House of Commons. The onus was on the Lords; not on them. The evil was with the Lords, who pleaded their own fault, and applied for the remedy. The evils, he believed, were exaggerated,
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and must vanish at the touch of a reforming hand. Let the Lords adopt an efficient measure, and the mass of evil would soon shrink to a manageable size.
He was unable to follow the reasonings of Chancery lawyers; but was such an officer as a Vice-Chancellor ever recognized before in England? He felt the highest respect for the present Lord Chancellor, but he must consider that he was called upon to legislate, not only for the present times but for posterity. He wished to preserve the office of Lord Chancellor in this country in all the plenitude of its powers and splendour of its authority. He believed in his conscience that it wag most essentially important to the constitution that it should be so preserved. He thought that it was one of the highest prerogatives of the sovereign, that he could take a man from the profession of the bar, and place him at once by an act of power in a situation giving rank and precedence above ducal coronets. This high prerogative, however, like all others, would be exercised with a responsibility to public opinion; and although the crown might make whom it would Lord Chancellor, yet it would never will to make any man a Chancellor, who, in the public eye, was not conceived to be fit for that high station.
He was not imputing any negligence to lord Eldon, when he said, that if this Bill should pass, a time might come when all the business of the Court of Chancery might be thrown upon this new officer and the Master of the Rolls, and that in future times a Lord Chancellor might be chosen chiefly from other considerations, unconnected with his legal knowledge or ability to preside in the Court of Chancery. This Bill might therefore, lead to the destruction of the high office of Lord Chancellor, which he conceived to be, as it now stood, an office of the greatest importance, as well in a constitutional point of view, as with regard to the administration of the important duties of the Court of Chancery. He, therefore, could not support a Bill which appeared to him to do things utterly unwise; to create a magistracy unfit to be created, and to endanger by innovation upon its character and duties a magistracy which it was of the highest importance to maintain unaltered and unimpaired; a Bill not calculated to remedy the evil which it professed to obviate, and risking the introduction of other evils which it might be diffi-

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cult hereafter to cure: a Bill directed to the removal of an obstruction in the course of justice avowedly of a temporary nature; and effecting (or rather not effecting) that object by a permanent dismemberment of the highest judicial office of the constitution.
Sir Samuel Romillycould not content himself with giving a silent vole upon this question, which if agreed to would effect a complete change in the character of future Lord Chancellors; and that the country would never again see such men as Somers, Camden, or Hardwicke. He could not support the present Bill; for although he must admit, and every body must admit, that the evil which was stated was a most serious one, yet he conceived that the remedy proposed was still more serious, and that it was an evil still greater than that which it purported to reform. The evil which now existed might, however, be considered as a temporary one; whereas, the remedy proposed would, if agreed to, bring upon them one that in his opinion would be permanent. They were now called upon to remedy an evil, which the other House had taken no step for many years to remove. The House of Lords, though the arrears had long been growing upon them, had never taken any active measures for removing the evil. They had not continued their sittings longer in order to diminish the arrear of causes before them, nor had they met earlier in the day, nor ever proceeded to the decision of any appeal in the absence of the Lord Chancellor. This it had been the practice of the House to do in former times, and in some cases it might be better that the cause should be decided on in his absence, as Appeals from his decisions frequently came before them. He thought there could be no difficulty in procuring the attendance of a sufficient number of lords to hear causes, in the absence of the Lord Chancellor, and by this means alone the evil might gradually be removed. He did not think any other remedy was necessary, and at least he thought what he had mentioned ought to be tried, before a measure like that now proposed were adopted. If their lordships had either met earlier in the morning for this purpose, or continued their sittings by shorter adjournments, or had decided causes even when the Chancellor was not present, there would not now have been such an arrear of business before them. The question however was not whether any
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other remedy could be devised? but whether that proposed ought to be resorted to? He conceived that the present Bill would alter materially the constitutional course of the business of the Court of Chancery, and the office of Lord Chancellor. After a few successions of Vice-Chancellors, there would be no more men found to discharge the high office of Lord Chancellor, in the manner it had hitherto been discharged by so many illustrious men. As to the great increase of business in Chancery, which had been so much spoken of, there was certainly a very great increase in the bankrupt business, but a very small increase in other respects. He denied that the business, strictly so called, of the Court of Chancery had increased since the year 1750. The number of suits was not now greater than in the time of lord Hardwicke, but they were perhaps heard at greater length. There might possibly have been less indulgence, or, as he might say, less invitation to frequent hearings, and re hearings at that time, and which were now equally injurious to the clients of that Court and to the public at large. As to the number of motions in lord Hardwicke's time, he did not know that they were much lower than at present, although, less time might have been taken up in the arguments upon them. Lord Hardwicke had generally, besides his morn" ing sitting, sat two evenings every week for hearing causes, and instead of closing his sittings at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, had frequently closed them at two o'clock in the morning, and therefore it was not extraordinary that in his time there was so small an arrear of business. If he were called upon to suggest a remedy to the evil complained of, he should say, that what appeared to him the most unobjectionable would be to separate the bankrupt business from that of the Chancery. It was said that as many of those bankrupt cases involved points of great difficulty and importance, and the decision was to be final and without appeal, it was absolutely necessary that the Lord Chancellor should determine them himself. He could not allow the justice of this conclusion. If they were cases of difficulty and importance, it certainly required that they should be decided by a man of ability, but he saw no necessity why this man must be the Lord Chancellor. Men could be easily found, of the highest professional eminence, who would be perfectly competent to this part of the duty; and

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a sufficient compensation could be found out for them, in the emoluments from those bankrupt cases. He could not avoid, however, quoting here, the opinion of their committee,—" that it was highly objectionable that judges should be paid from fees, especially from fees ostensibly belonging to their secretary or some inferior officer." By this it appeared that the fees of bankruptcy, which were paid to an officer for the bankruptcy, were accounted for by that officer to the Lord Chancellor. This, in his opinion, was decidedly wrong—a judge ought never to be paid by fees. He should therefore most earnestly recommend that these fees should be abolished, and the salary of the Lord Chancellor proportionably increased, if it should appear that the other emoluments of his office did not afford him a sufficient remuneration. Next to taking away the bankrupt business,- he thought the separating the office of Speaker of the House of Lords from that of Chancellor, would be a far better mode than that which was proposed in the present Bill. He saw no reason why the Chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster might not be made an efficient situation, and why he might not sit in other courts. He knew that the present possessor of it (Mr. Bathurst) was eminent in the profession of the law while he practised it; and he did not see why the place might not in future be given to professional men, with duties annexed to it. As to the nature of this office, it was to be totally different from that of the Master of the Rolls, or of the judges sitting under a commission. They, when sitting in the place of the Chancellor, heard and determined every cause which came before them, whether important or not; but never was there such an indignity put before upon any judge, as to tell him that he was never to determine any cases of difficulty or importance. As the Vice-Chancellor was to be for life, while the office of Lord Chancellor was removable at pleasure, it might at some future time happen, that a Chancellor might have an unreasonable prejudice against the Vice-Chancellor. It was well known, that lord Thurlow had such a prejudice against his Master of the Rolls (lord Alvaniey, than whom there was hardly ever a better equity judge), that he would never allow him to sit in his place. Such things might happen again, and instead of that mutual agreement and concord subsisting between these great law-officers which would tend
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to the dispatch of business, a state of things might arise from which only increased, extended, and protracted litigation must ensue. He wished that ministers would really find out the opinion of the profession at large upon this subject, and not confine themselves to the opinions of a few of their parliamentary friends. It was said the public would pay nothing for this new officer, as he would be partly paid out of the interest of the fund of unclaimed money now in Chancery. He could not avoid noticing this fund, out of which part of this salary was proposed to be paid, called the Dead Fund, and amounting to 9,000 l. per annum, being the interest of money put into that Court and never claimed: its very existence appeared to him a subject which called for parliamentary enquiry. It was the money of suitors placed in that Court for security; but which the suitors were often obliged to abandon from the great difficulties they found in bringing forward their cause. It was possible it would never be called for; but had they a right to assume that this would be the case? Considering the remedy proposed a greater mischief than the evil complained of, he must oppose the present Bill, which would do the greatest mischief to the Court of Chancery, and entirely alter its constitution, while it created a new and unnecessary officer to be subjected to every species of indignity, or else to be altogether useless.
Mr. Wetherallwas strongly in favour of the measure. If two years discussion and consideration of it were not sufficient, he did not know what would be reckoned a reasonable time for enquiring into its expediency, nor what would satisfy the gentlemen on the other side. The business of the Court, he maintained, had increased so much, that since the year 1750 the number of Appeals had been not only doubled, but trebled. This proved the evil complained of was not a temporary evil, and therefore, being permanent, it was one which called for the permanent remedy now proposed. The hon. and learned gentleman then entered more into detail, and contended, that the Bill offered the most efficacious and constitutional means for redressing the grievances under which the subjects of these realms now laboured, from the necessary delay and arrear of business in the Court of Chancery and House of Lords. He denied that the new officer would be either inefficient or degraded, and on the contrary, argued

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that many men of competent legal knowledge, high character, and excellent abilities, would be found eligible to, and ready to undertake the discharge of, its important functions. He replied to the arguments for separating the bankruptcy business from the office of Lord Chancellor, which suggestion he condemned as most unwise, since it would be imprudent to give the power of finally adjudicating property of an amount so immense as that contained in these cases, to an inferior officer; and if appeal was allowed, then the separation would afford no relief. He also expressed his opinion, in common with the opinions of every lawyer and statesman who had turned their attention to the subject, to be entirely hostile to the idea of separating the duties of Speaker in the House of Peers from the other duties of the Lord Chancellor. This had been so universally held to be inexpedient by all men whose authority was of weight, that it would be idle in him to repeat their reasons for coming to the conclusion, in the propriety of which he most perfectly coincided. He justified the application of the Dead Fund to the payment of part of the salary of the new officer, and closed his observations by warmly approving of every part of the Bill.
The Solicitor-General, (Sir W. Garrow) in a speech of great animation, gave his opinion in favour of the Bill, and against the Amendment. He insisted on the necessity of providing justice for the subjects of the realm, now exposed to many inconveniencies, by the delay in the courts of law; and replied to the various arguments which had been addressed against the Bill. He ridiculed the idea of taking a judge from each, or from either of the other courts, for the purpose of constituting or relieving a court of equity. The judges in the courts of common law had already more business to perform than, with their utmost diligence, they could get through, and it was absurd to look for relief to those quarters. What then were they to do? A great evil existed—an evil which amounted almost, in many cases, altogether to a denial of justice to suitors and to the public. Were they to acquiesce in this state of the law, or ought not the House rather to declare that it wanted an instant remedy, which they would hasten to apply by passing a Bill of the description now before them. He did not mean to say but
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that several amendments upon the measure might be suggested in the Committée; but he contended, that in principle the Bill was most deserving of their unanimous support, which was the whole extent of the vote they were now called on to give. They wanted a prompt decision and an effectual remedy for a very crying evil, and in his opinion, the measure proposed would be found the best practical remedy that could be devised. It had therefore his most cordial support.
Mr. Ponsonbymaintained, that the evil created by the Bill would be far greater than the evil it was intended to remedy. The measure would go to alter the judicial system of the country in its very basis; which attempt had never been made before, and was not in the power of the crown itself. He trusted the House would resist that attempt, and reject the Bill altogether, by voting for the amendment.
The House then divided upon the Amendment, Ayes 122; Noes 201; Majority against the Amendment 79. The original question for the second reading of the Bill was then carried without a division.

List of the Minority.

Abercromby, Hon. J.

Fitzgerald, Ld. H.

Althorpe, Visc.

Fitzroy, Ld. J.

Astley, Sir J.

Flood, Sir F.

Atherley, A.

Foster, F.

Aubrey, Sir J.

Frankland, W.

Bankes, H. (Teller.)

Fazakerley, J. N.

Barham, J. F.

Gascoyne, J.

Baring, A.

Gaskell, B.

Barnard, Visc.

Gordon, R.

Bennet, Hon. H. G.

Gower, Earl

Birch, Jos.

Gower, Ld. G. L.

Blachford, B. P.

Grant, J. P.

Brand, Hon. T.

Grattan, Rt. Hon. H.

Burrell, Hon. P. D.

Greenhill, R.

Broadhead, T. H.

Grenfell, P.

Byng, G.

Gurney, Hudson

Canning, Rt. Hon. G.

Halsey, J.

Canning, G.

Hamilton, Sir H.

Calvert, I.

Harcourt, J.

Calvert, C.

Hanbury, W.

Carew, R. S.

Heron, Sir R.

Coulthurst, Sir N.

Heathcote, Sir G.

Courtenay, W.

Howard, Hon. W.

Cavendish, Lord G.

Howarth, H.

Cocks, Hon. J. S.

Hughes, W. L.

Cocks, J.

Hurst, R.

Combe, H. C.

Jolliffe, H.

Creevey, T.

Kensington, Lord

Dundas, Hon. L.

Knox, T.

Duncannon, Visc.

Langton, W. G.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W.

Leach, T. J.

Ellis, CR.

Lefevre, C. S.

Ellison, C.

Lemon, Sir W.

Ferguson, R. C.

Lemon, J.

497

Lewis, T. F.

Protheroe, E.

Lyttelton, E. J.

Pym, F.

Lloyd, J. M.

Ramsden, J. C.

Lloyd, Sir E.

Ridley, M. W.

Macdonald, J. (Teller).

Robinson, G. A.

Madocks, W. A.

Rowley, Sir W.

Marsh, C.

Russell, Ld. G. W.

Martin, J.

Romilly, Sir S.

Martin, H.

Simson, G.

Molyneux, H. H.

Smith, S.

Methuen, P.

Smith, J.

Miller, Sir T.

Smith, A.

Milton, Visc.

Smith, W.

Monck, Sir C.

Smith, Robert

Melgund, Lord

Smyth, J. H.

Montgomery, Sir H.

Speirs, A.

Mostyn, Sir T.

Taylor, M. A.

Neville, Hon. R.

Tierney, Rt. Hon. G.

Newport, Sir J.

Tighe, W.

North, D.

Vernon, G.

Ord, W.

Walpole, Hon. G.

Ossulston, Lord

Ward, Hon. J. W.

Pole, Rt. Hon. W. W.

Warre, J. A.

Parnell, Sir H.

Webster, Sir G.

Pelham, Hon. C.

Wellesley, Long W.

Pelham, Hon. G.

Western, C. C.

Phillips, G.

Whitbread, S.

Plumer, W.

Wilkins, W.

Ponsonby, Rt. Hn. G.

Wrottesley, H.