Sitting of 20 March 1812

PETITION FROM BLACKBURN RESPECTING THE STATE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS.
Mr. Blackburnpresented a Petition from several inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Blackburn, in the county of Lancaster, setting forth, "That, in the exercise of those inestimable rights with which the constitution of the country has invested them, the Petitioners venture to lay before the House their sentiments and feelings on subjects of the highest importance to their national and individual welfare; and that in the institution of the authorities of the House, the Petitioners behold that link which unites them to the throne, and to the House, as the Representatives of the people, they direct their confidence and expectations; the immediate connection of the House with those whose suffrages have entrusted to them the preservation of the interests of the Petitioners, naturally emboldens them to look to their sympathy for commiseration, to their wisdom for direction, and to their measures for redress; they will therefore state, with respectful submission, the circumstances on which their claims to the attention of the House are founded, and, in making this appeal to them, they are persuaded, that not only are their own convictions expressed, but the known undisguised and avowed convictions of thousands in every part of the united empire; and that the Petitioners reside in the most populous of the manufacturing counties, and unhappily possess the means of accurately observing the effects of protracted war and restricted commerce; in ascertaining those effects, it will be sufficient for them to state the high price of all the necessaries of life, the unparalleled and long-continued reduction of wages, the frequent interruptions of labour, the consequent difficulty of obtaining a bare subsistence, the rapid advancement of parochial rates, the increasing deficiencies in. the collection of assessed taxes, the exhaustion of the little stores by which the more laborious and provident formerly hoped to obtain a trifling elevation above absolute poverty, the gradual disappearance of the middling classes, which are fast melting down into the lower orders of the community, and the certain prospect of evil still more injurious to the individual sufferers, and to the interests of the country at large; these are some of the consequences of that state of things which is so poignantly to be deplored, and the causes and removal of which, the Peti-

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tioners pray that the House will take into immediate and dispassionate consideration; in thus adverting to the afflictive privations of the poor, the Petitioners by no means wish it to be inferred that they are the only sufferers; it must be obvious to the House, that the unprecedented number of failures and bankruptcies in the higher departments of commercial society, and in all its descending gradations, are immediately owing to those causes, which, in their ultimate but severest operation, affect the labouring and mechanical classes; they could easily amplify this general statement by a minute detail of painful events; but the members of the House are sufficiently acquainted with the numerous and increasing accumulation of facts in support of the account which has been presented; what those causes are to which evils of such enormity and magnitude may be traced, it is not difficult to ascertain; the Petitioners submit that they may be discovered in the impolicy which suggested, adopted, and still continues un-revoked, the Orders in Council, in the absence of conciliatory measures towards the United States, and in the want of clear, prompt, and satisfactory explanations in diplomatic negociations with that country; but they are imperiously compelled to specify what, in their apprehensions, is the primary cause of their sufferings; as natives of a country professing the Christian religion, they deplore the moral effects of war; as men, they lament the miseries of their fellow-creatures; as Britons, they feel convinced that war is inimical to their interests; that its continuance is more injurious to a commercial country, like our own, than to one which possesses, within itself, greater physical resources; that the subjugation of the enemy is more impracticable than ever; and that his power is more firmly compacted by the opposition he has encountered; supported by these facts, in the opinions they form of the consequences of the present war, the Petitioners fuel the most urgent solicitude, arising from convictions which are every day confirmed and increased, that the House should direct its attention to the revocation of those decrees, which, in imitation of an enemy's policy, have accomplished the object of that policy instead of their own, and which, by their continuance, present the main obstacle to the amicable adjustment of differences with America; they also submit, that the restrictions by which
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the East India trade has been limited to an individual incorporation, in the metropolis of the kingdom, should be annihilated when the present period of its mono-poly shall expire, and that, on the principles of liberal economy, the advantages of that trade should be enjoyed without exclusion or limitation; but they especially entreat that measures towards the pacification of Europe may become the subjects of the immediate deliberation of the House, who will thus obtain a truly dignified elevation in being the first to sheathe the sword when no object of utility can be effected, when war can be no longer subservient to that which is its only legitimate object, the security of peace; the House will thus obtain at least a temporary cessation to the miseries and distractions of a bleeding world, they will excite afresh the powerful energies of a commercial people, they will furnish employment and subsistence lo an immense population at home, they will give stability and consolidation to our colonial dependencies abroad, they will raise the tone of national character in the estimation of surrounding countries, and connect the remembrance of our pacific achievements with the gratitude and attachment of millions for whose weal they legislate, and whose prosperity is inseparably combined with our own; the Petitioners are aware that an appeal to the feelings of sensibility, or the power of imagination, would be incongruous, but they humbly solicit the attention of the House to higher and more definite principles; and that before the evils which now press so severely on the various classes of society are extended and multiplied beyond the possibility of endurance, the Petitioners beseech the House to investigate their causes, to ascertain the effectual means of counteraction, and, from motives of policy, patriotism, and justice, to administer the appropriate remedies."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

LONDON THEATRE BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of the Bill for erecting and maintaining a new Theatre for Dramatic Entertainments, within the Cities of London and Westminster, or liberties thereof,
Mr. Whitbreadrequested that the noble lord who had the conduct of the measure, would put off the second reading until Monday, in order to give an opportunity for a right hon. friend of his (Mr. Sheri-

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dan) who was indisposed, to be present at the discussion.
Lord Ossulstonreplied, that he did not feel authorised to postpone the second reading of the Bill, and must therefore move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Mr. Peter Moorerose to give his decided negative to the motion. He was fully prepared to say, that no adequate ground whatever had been laid for the proposition now submitted. It had been said, that the population was greatly increased, but it could be proved (hat the enlargement of the theatres had more than corresponded with the real increase in the number of play-going people. An account of the receipts and disbursements would even shew that this number of late had diminished, while on the contrary the expences of representation had greatly augmented. But there were other objections to the Bill, inasmuch as it went to supersede the royal prerogative of granting licences for dramatic exnibition. The patents now existing had been granted for national purposes, and ought to be defended against the encroachments of those who, on the plea of an increased population, were only seeking their own private advantage. He concluded by moving, That the Bill be read a second time that day six months.
Lord Ossulstonsupported the Bill in a speech of considerable length, but in a tone of voice altogether inaudible.
Sir T. Turtonopposed the Bill, as ill-timed, when Drury-lane was rising like a phœnix from its ashes. The delay mentioned in the amendment, could not go the length of rejecting totally the principle of the Bill, but would give the House time to see, whether or no the public would be well accommodated at Drury-lane; and in case that establishment did not answer the expectations which had been formed, then he firmly believed, that the Bill would not want support. He had no objection to new speculations in theatres, or any thing else; but, it should be recollected, that the framers of the Bill had grounded their first application on the improbability of Drury-lane being ever rebuilt, but now the progress in the re-construction had surpassed the most sanguine expectations. He should, in consequence, vote for the amendment.
Mr. Holme Sumnermaintained that the inhabitants of this vast metropolis had a right to be amply provided with rational
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amusements, which was not, nor could not be the case under the present system of monopoly. Indeed, the present monopolists had completely over-shot their mark in their anxiety to accommodate the greatest possible number of spectators. They had built play-houses, in which a great many could see, but no one could hear. The consequence was, that we could no longer enjoy those admirable performances which had been the delight of our ancestors, and were favourable to morals. Instead of them we had dogs, elephants and horses introduced on the stage, to the disgust of every rational man. Another objection to theatrical monopoly was, want of encouragement for meritorious per-formers. Now for instance, that Covent-garden was the only national theatre, no man, whatever might be his merit, could expect to be admitted into the company, if the line of his profession interfered with the parts allotted to Mr. Kemble, and in that case country theatres were his only resources: on these grounds he would give his hearty assent to the Bill, or to any Bill for increasing the number of places of rational amusements, which he considered as conducive to good morals.
Mr. Whitbreadwas sorry that the noble lord could not consent to put off his motion, during the indisposition of his right hon. friend, who was so much interested in the question. He owned that he was, as he had been represented by the noble lord, a most zealous promoter of the re-building of Drury-lane, solely through motives of friendship, and of course he might be naturally expected to oppose the present Bill. In the arduous task he had thus undertaken, he had, however, received some encouragement from the speech of the hon. gentleman who spoke last, and provided Drury-lane could be built in the commodious way recommended by the hon. gentleman, and which he hoped should be the case, he trusted that the hon. gentleman would recommend him some of those excellent tragedians, which, cording to him, were so easy to be found, and which he probably kept behind the curtain until proper encouragement should be offered. The hon. gentleman had complained, that in many parts of the town, people were too far from the theatre. This objection might be pushed a great way indeed, perhaps as far as to furnish a theatre to each particular individual. Three years ago the House was petitioned for a third theatre, the petitions were then

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referred to the crown, and their claims, after being considered by the Privy Council, were rejected. Last year the petitioners came again to the House, on the pretext that there was little or no chance of the restoration of Drury-lane theatre. If they would agree to wait another session, should that theatre be not then completed and open, he certainly would wave all his objections to this Bill, and vote neither the one way or the other. If this Bill should now pass, though it might not prevent, yet it would probably seem to retard the full restoration of the old theatre. It would tend to shake the confidence of the public, and renew the difficulties from which they had been recently extricated. They had already advanced a great way, and there were but very few outstanding claims which were not in a train of being satisfied. His noble friend had, he was sorry to say, refused to give the very short delay of postponing his motion till Monday next, when he might expect the attendance of a right hon. gentleman peculiarly interested in the question. He had not, however, to com-plain of any gentlemen within those walls, but he had to quarrel with those who had circulated gross misrepresentations with-out, affecting to know that of which they were quite ignorant, and perverting what they did know. If the persons who were now speculating in a third theatre should succeed in their application, he had no doubt they would zealously oppose a fourth, and talk of the violation of that property which had been embarked under the sanction of parliament. With respect to what had been said, as to a redundancy of population, he presumed it would not be said that the theatres were not large enough to receive the inhabitants of those parts to which they lay contiguous. But the terms of the Bill implied the whole extent of London and Westminster. Were they sure that the city of London would permit the erection within their precincts, or was it purposed to build it in the parish of Marybone. He apprehended that neither was the case, and that if built at all, this third theatre would be built in some situation not far removed from the Scite of the old ones. The hon. gentleman who preceded him, had cast an imputation on Mr. Kemble, which was altogether undeserved. He believed that he had never been guilty of suppressing any talents, distinguished as his own were among the first that had ever adorned his profession.
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With respect to the introduction of horses and elephants, was it not notorious, that the taste of the people must be followed sometimes as well as guided? Were not the same complaints and censures made in the Augustan are a itself, and did we not find Horace satirizing the introduction of the very animal lately exhibited. 'Sive' Elephas albas vulgi converteret ora.' The greatest actor that ever lived, Mr. Garrick, had resorted to the same expedients, and it ought not to be forgotten that Mr. Kemble had done much for the stage in reviving many of our best dramas, and particularly those of Shakespeare, in a style of unusual taste and splendour. At an example he might advert to a play now acting, in which he himself performed the principal character with an excellence which, if equalled, had never been surpassed. It had been said that young candidates for dramatic honours were not fairly treated. He was disposed to think that if no monopoly existed, and no limit to the increase of theatres, the ambition or vanity natural to new performers would lead them all to assume principal characters, and that we should have as many Hamlets as we could desire at 4l. a week instead of 20 l. The consequence must be, that we should have many bad actors and not one good play. Under all these considerations, he should support the motion for deferring the Bill to this day six months.
Mr. Brownesupported the Bill, and thought that those interested in Drury-lane theatre opposed this application with a very bad grace, when it was considered how much parliament had done for them, to get them out of their embarrassments. Their monopoly alone would not have enabled them to re-build their theatre, if it had not been for the assistance of parliament.
The House then divided on the amendment, for postponing the second reading to this day six months, which was carried by a majority of 58 to 35.

PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RESPECTING A PROVISION FOR THE PRINCESSES.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerpresented the following Message from the Prince Regent:
"George P. R.
"His royal highness the Prince Re-gent, in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty, thinks it necessary to ac-quaint the House of Commons, that in

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pursuance of the powers vested in his Majesty, by two acts passed in the 18th and 30th years of his present Majesty's reign, his Majesty was graciously pleased, by letters patent, bearing date the 2d of February 1802, to grant to their royal highnesses the princesses Augusta-Sophia, Elizabeth, Mary, Sophia, and Amelia, an annuity of 30,000 l. agreeably to the provisions and subject to the limitations of the said acts, which grant was to take effect from the demise of his Majesty; and his Royal Highness being desirous, in the present situation of the royal family, to be empowered to provide for the establishment of their royal highnesses the Princesses, by an immediate grant, re-commends to the House of Commons, to take the subject into their consideration, and to enable his Royal Highness to make such provision for their royal high-nesses the Princesses, as in the liberality of parliament may be thought suitable to the actual situation of the Princesses, and to the circumstances of the present time.
"G. P. R."
Ordered to be taken into consideration on Monday.

PENITENTIARY HOUSE BILL.
On the motion for going into a Committee on this Bill,
Mr. Kenrickmoved an instruction to the Committee, that provision should be made, that persons convicted of felony, without benefit of clergy, should be kept to hard labour.
Mr. Holfordrose, in consequence of in-formation he had received, that it was in-tended to oppose the principle of the Bill. He entered into a minute examination of the plan of Mr. Bentham, which, he contended, was wholly inadequate to the object; and he drew a comparison between it and the scheme he had the honour of proposing to the House this session. He dwelt particularly on the benefits likely to result from the management being placed in the hands of a committee, instead of an individual controulable only by the court of King's-bench.
Sir S. Romillylamented that the subject should be discussed in so thin a House. One of his principal objections to the plan now suggested had been removed, namely, that the institution was calculated to receive so few offenders. Still, however, the objects to which it was to apply were too much restricted, as criminals convicted in London and Middlesex were only to be
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received. He admitted that the management being left to a committee was preferable, but still the public ought to possess a full right of inspection and controul. He would not now enter fully into Mr. Bentham's plan, but it was to be remembered, that lightly as it had been spoken of, it had on mature deliberation been approved of by Mr. Pitt and by lord Melville. He had only recommended the plan of Mr. Bentham to the consideration of the House on account of the advantages it had over other plans of a similar nature, on account of its superior economy, and the prospect it held out of furnishing the convicts with employment when the term of their imprisonment expired. In support of the utility of prisons being subjected to public inspection, he referred to a recent work of Mr. Neild's, which disclosed practices on the part of gaolers and others, that could not take place if the public eye had been upon them; for he believed in every case, that there were no inspectors or guardians so good as the public themselves. With regard to the erection of Penitentiary Houses, he believed he might advert to the warm and zealous support with which such a plan had been maintained by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Dundas; at least if he was wrong, he saw a right hon. gentleman in his place who could set him right. He wished that the Bill might not be committed that evening, on account of the thinness of the House, and that members might have an opportunity of fully possessing themselves of its object; and he should therefore move as an amendment, that the House should go into a Committee upon it on Wednesday the 15th of April.
Mr. Longobserved, in reply to the reference of his hon. and learned friend, that certainly no person was more anxious than Mr. Pitt, that some plan similar to that now proposed, should be adopted. Mr. Dundas was also of the same opinion, but he was not prepared to say that they were particularly attached to Mr. Bentham's plan, (which though it had many good parts, and contained much that might be adopted) it was impossible any person could wholly approve, who had attentively examined it.
Mr. Abercrombyspoke in favour of Mr. Bentham's plan, though he had never recommended its unqualified adoption. He would vote with his hon. and learned friend against proceeding farther that night, and hoped he would take the sense of the House on the subject.
Mr. Secretary Ryderstated his objections to various parts of Mr. Bentham's plan. He strongly opposed the amendment, on account of the delay it would occasion. He was desirous of making the plan as perfect as possible; but he could see no advantage likely to result from postponing the Committee on the Bill, as he conceived the thinness of the House was to be in a great measure ascribed to a feeling on the part of the members absent, that to attend on this occasion was unnecessary.
Mr. Wilberforcegave his testimony to the value of Mr. Bentham's plan, not indeed without amendments, which it had ever courted, and could not, therefore, be considered as pretending to perfection. He particularly eulogised that part of it which provided for the restoration of the criminal to society in a manner which would not, as it were, compel him to a renewal of his vicious courses. He trusted this system would put an end to transportation, except for life, to those whom it was expedient to banish altogether from their countrymen.
Mr. Bathurstwas against any further postponement. It had appeared, from the report of the Committee, that the situation of the felons in the several gaols of the metropolis called for the most prompt attention. He objected to the plan of making the prisoners a public spectacle, which, in his opinion, had a tendency to defeat the main object, namely, that of affording them every opportunity of solitary reflection upon the nature of their offences, and the justice of their punishment.
Mr. C. Adamssupported the amendment, on the ground of the absence of many hon. and legal members on the assizes, whose opinions it would be satisfactory to receive on this question.
Mr. W. Smithsaw no inconvenience in putting it off for so short a period as that proposed by his hon. and learned friend.
The House divided on the amendment.

For the Amendment

18

Against it

35

Majority

—

17

The House then resolved itself into a Committee, in which the various clauses of the Bill underwent a discussion.
The House having resumed, the report was ordered to be received on Monday.

ADMIRALTY REGISTRAR'S BILL.
Mr. Henry Martinrose, agreeably to the notice which he had repeatedly renewed, to
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move for leave to bring in two Bills for regulating the Offices of Registrar of the High Court of Admiralty and of Remembrancer of the Court of Exchequer. A" he understood that his motion for leave to bring in these Bills was not to be opposed, he should state nothing farther as to the necessity of them at present. His object was to assimilate the Offices of Registrar of the Court of Admiralty, and deputy Remembrancer of Exchequer, as far as the custody of the money belonging to suitors in those courts was concerned, to the Office of Receiver-General in the Court of Chancery. He accordingly moved for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the Office of Registrar of the High Court of Admiralty, as far as concerned the custody of the money of suitors in that Court; also, for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the Office of Deputy Remembrancer of Exchequer, in as far as concerned the custody of the money belonging to suitors in that Court.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had no wish to oppose the motion of his hon. and learned friend for leave to bring in the Bills. He should mark the progress of the Bills, however, through the House, and should take an opportunity of proposing clauses granting compensations to the persons who were at present in possession of the offices referred to, without which he could not consent to the Bills now proposed passing into a law.
Mr. Martinsaid, he should be prepared to meet the right hon. gentleman on this subject, whenever the proper stage for doing so should arise.
Leave was accordingly given to bring in the said Bills.