Sitting of 18 March 1812

PETITION FROM BOLTON RELATIVE TO PARLIAMENTARY REFORM, &C.
Mr. Whitbreadpresented a Petition from the inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Bolton-in-the-Moors, assembled pursuant to public advertisement, setting forth,
"That many of the Petitioners are, in consequence of the depressed state of trade, in a situation of extreme distress,
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and that the distress approaches so nearly to actual starvation, that they think it would be highly imprudent any longer to delay communicating their situation to the House: and that immense numbers of the industrious manufacturers in their neighbourhood, are reduced to the necessity of working for less than one fourth of what they would previous to the commencement of the war with France, whilst the necessaries of life are, since that period, nearly doubled in price; and that they are convinced, by sad and dear-bought experience, that the expensive war in which this country has been so long engaged, is the immediate cause of the distresses they now labour under; and that the continuance of this war, and most of its concomitant evils, are attributable to the imperfect representation of the people in the House; and it is the humble opinion of the Petitioners, that if the House consisted of representatives of the people only, it would not, for any doubtful prospect of benefit to our allies, consent to expose the people of this country to the certain misery, ruin and starvation, which the continuance of the war must bring upon them; and that, though the Petitioners have, on many occasions, been proud to express their loyalty and patriotism, and their willingness to sacrifice their lives, if necessary, in defence of their invaluable constitution; yet they cannot help shrinking from the horrible form in which death now seems to await them and their helpless families, unalleviated by any circumstances of glory or of advantage to their beloved country; and praying, that the House will take into its serious consideration the privations and sufferings of his Majesty's loyal subjects in their populous district, and will devise some speedy means of relieving them; and further, that the House will, by all the means in its power, endeavour to bring about the so much wished for Reform in the Representation of the people: and will also recommend to his royal highness the Prince Regent, that no means be left untried which are likely to restore to his Majesty's loyal and long-suffering people the blessings of peace."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
Mr. Baringsaid, that he rose for the purpose of moving for an Account of the total amount of money raised for the public service, in each year, from 1790 to 1811, by taxes, or by increase of the National Debt; and

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also for an Account of the sums expended by the commissioners for reducing the National Debt, during the same period. His object in making this motion was, to bring under one view the manner in which the funds had been raised for carrying on the present war, both in taxes and by way of loan, which he thought peculiarly desirable during the discussion which was likely to take place on those points, directly or indirectly, in consequence of the Bill brought in last night. He begged leave also to take that opportunity of correcting a misrepresentation which had gone abroad of what had fallen from him last night, and which he was induced to do, not from any importance that could be attached to his opinions, but because the expressions ascribed to him were of a nature to affect the public credit. It had been stated that he said, the Bank of England was unable to pay their notes in specie. So far was he from having made such an assertion, that his whole argument was, that he thought their ability to meet their engagements made the proposed enquiry useless. He always had thought that the Bank could pay in specie, but the difficulty was as to the supplying the quantity of paper called for by the country. He drew no comparison between the funds of the Bank now, and in the year 1797, and he wished it to be understood that he was not disposed to draw such a comparison. He begged pardon for occupying the attention of the House, but thought the delicacy of the subject demanded some explanation.
The Accounts were accordingly ordered.

DISTILLATION FROM GRAIN IN IRELAND.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldsaid, that before he made the motion with which he meant to conclude, he wished first to remove from the minds of gentlemen any misconception, relative to the existence of any insufficiency of a supply of corn in Ireland. It was not his wish to spread any alarm of scarcity, and this he thought necessary to specify, because it too frequently happened, that the discussion of a subject was a sufficient ground for alarm. It was true, that in some local districts some deficiency might be found to exist, and, on that account, he thought it incumbent on the Irish government to direct their attention to the subject, that if no ground for apprehension was found to exist, the public clamour or alarm might be silenced. In another point of view,
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he was averse to any interference with the corn laws, and was one of those who thought such interference productive of more harm than good; and with respect to Ireland, he doubted whether any limitation should be placed to the export of corn, as he conceived that country to be equal to supply more than it did at present to England. He deprecated the idea of encouraging distillation from corn as a source of revenue, as it sometimes created a pressure which was severely felt; and it was the duty of government to sacrifice any small object of revenue to the comforts of the people. The food of the poor in Ireland being chiefly potatoes, the high price of corn only affected them when there was a failure of the crop of potatoes, which was the only proof on the subject. In such a case, he thought it the duty of government to put a stop at once to distillation. He was given to understand, that the consumption of grain in Dublin was nearly double, in consequence of the distillation from grain in that city—a permission by which industry was discouraged, and immorality promoted. He must repeat, however, that there did not exist the least reason to apprehend a scarcity in Ireland, and that there was a redundancy of provisions in one part of the country sufficient to preserve the reasonable price, and to supply any deficiency that might partially exist. He concluded by moving, "That there be laid before this House, an account of the number of gallons of Irish-made spirits on which duty was paid in Ireland, from the 5th day of January, 1811, to the latest period to which the same can be made up; distinguishing the districts, together with the amount of duty paid thereon."
Mr. W. Polesaid, that he had no objection to grant the information required by the hon. gentleman. In the general view which the hon. gentleman had taken of the subject, he perfectly agreed. He understood the hon. gentleman to state, that he did not think that there was any ground for apprehending that there was a scarcity of grain in Ireland. He had taken every means in his power to obtain the most accurate information upon this subject, and he was convinced there was no danger of scarcity. It was true that the prices of grain were very different in different parts of Ireland, but that Variety of price did not arise from any deficiency of grain. Very unpleasant circumstances bad occurred in different parts of Ireland, where

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the people had endeavoured to prevent grain from being sent to the Dublin market, under a mistaken notion that it would cause a scarcity; but when a free intercourse was opened between the different parts of the kingdom, the result was, that the markets were all supplied, and the prices lowered. He was therefore warranted in saying, that even in the districts alluded to by the hon. gentleman, there was no reason to apprehend a scarcity. He agreed with the hon. gentleman, that if there was any ground to apprehend a scarcity, it would become the duty of the Irish government to stop the distilleries; but he knew, from information upon which he could place the most perfect reliance, that all the distillers in Dublin, Cork, and Limerick, were now amply supplied with grain to carry on their business to the fullest extent for ten weeks to come. The regular time at which distillers ceased to work was the 1st of June; last year they ceased on that day, and he had no doubt that he could prevail upon them to cease at the same period this year. As they had therefore already a sufficient supply of grain to carry them on till within a few days of the time at which they would naturally cease working, there was no reason to apprehend that they would come into the market, and by their purchases increase the price of the article. It should also be observed, that the grain in the possession of the distillers was in such a state, being either malted or kiln dried, or in some such state of process, that it could not be made use of for the purpose of food, even if the distilleries were slopped. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. gentleman would see, that the measure which he had suggested could not tend in any degree to afford any relief to the people of Ireland. The price of grain had certainly risen in Ireland, but that was not owing to the distilleries, but to the free intercourse in grain, which subsisted between Great Britain and Ireland, and the price in the former country being so much greater than it was in the latter, a very great export naturally took place from Ireland. He most highly approved of the free intercourse in grain between the two countries. No man at all acquainted with the state of Ireland, could shut his eyes to the astonishing improvements which had taken place in the agriculture of that country, in consequence of the act proposed by the right hon. baronet opposite to him (sir John Newport) for fa-
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cilitating that intercourse. But when he stated that the price of wheat was 16 s. a barrel more in London than it was in Dublin, it was impossible to suppose that a great export to this country should not take place. Whether, if any serious scarcity were to take place in Ireland, it might not be proper for government to take a review of the act to which he had alluded, was another question; but certainly, under the present circumstances, he for one would not consent to touch that act. Gentlemen were not, perhaps, aware, that in the last year, the import of grain into this country from Ireland was in the, proportion of one to three of what Great Britain imported from the rest of the world; formerly the average of the proportion was only as one to ten. The importation of grain into this country from Ireland was not only great, but it was progressively increasing. The importation in the last four months was greater than the whole importation of any one preceding year, and the importation of the last month was greater by one-fourth than the proportion of the four months. He did not think it necessary to take up more of the time of the House, as he did not mean to give any opposition to the hon. gentleman's motion. If any case of scarcity were to arise, the attention of the Irish government would of course be most closely directed to the subject. At present he agreed with the hon. gentleman, that there was no ground for any such apprehension. The crop of potatoes, it was true, was rather scanty, bat they were of a good quality; and he was sure that, from the steps which had been taken to enable the farmers to carry their produce to market without interruption, the prices of grain in Ireland would not increase, and therefore that there would be no occasion for the interposition of parliament.
Sir John Newportentirely agreed in the opinion, that there was nothing like a scarcity to be apprehended, and that where any deficiency existed, it arose from the stoppage of the regular intercourse through the country, by which alone plenty could be ensured. The farmer locked up his corn in his granaries, and the people defeated their own objects. He believed that at all times there was a considerable advance on oats at this season of the year, particularly when the crop of potatoes failed; and it was to be recollected that the distilleries had laid in their stock, and their demand ceased at this time. Above

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all things he entreated the House not to entertain any idea of fixing a maximum almost under any contingent circumstances; and he reminded them, that when he introduced the Bill, for which he had been so undeservedly complimented by the right hon. gentleman, he had cautioned them against fixing a maximum, for it would operate as a permanent discouragement to the tillage farmer, and if held over him, as a probable measure, would, like the sword of Damocles, paralyse all his exertions. Any limitation of the exports of corn would have the same effect as a restriction, and he hoped the united kingdoms were fully able to furnish corn enough for their consumption, without any foreign aid. As to the prices of; corn in the London market, it was to be observed, that a considerable addition must be made to the price of the corn exported from Ireland before it reached the English market, and also that the quality of corn grown in a moist soil (like that of Ireland) was inferior; at all events, the intercourse should not be meddled with, as the evil complained of would correct itself. There was a considerable exportation of corn from Ireland to Portugal and Cadiz, for the use of the armies, and he would rather meddle with that than the regular intercourse between the two countries, by which the farming interest would be alarmed, and that spirit repressed which arose from the Bill of last session. He was sure the right hon. gentleman was not inclined to take such a step, but as he had thrown out a hint to that effect, he thought it his duty to express his sentiments of the evils which were to be apprehended from it.
Mr. W. Polesaid, in explanation, that the right hon. baronet understood him in a stronger sense than he intended—he merely meant to state in fairness, that the difference in price might make it a question whether some limits should not be put to it.
Mr. Marryattsaid, that the consumption of grain in the Irish distilleries was prodigious, as besides the consumption of that country, Ireland exported near a thousand puncheons of spirits a week. He thought that in determining this question, the price of corn in this country ought to be attended to as well as the price of corn in Ireland. It was evident that while there was a free intercourse of corn between the two Countries, the price of it in Ireland must be affected by the price of it
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in Great Britain. He thought that it was due to the poor manufacturers of Great Britain, who were now living on reduced wages, and with an increased price of pro-visions, to take measures for preventing the unnecessary consumption of grain in the Irish distilleries. If this waste of grain were stopped, our manufactures might be sent out to pay for West India sugar, and the manufactures might be restored to their former wages.
The motion was then agreed to.

MUTINY BILL.
The order of the day being read, for the House to go into a Committee on the above Bill,
Earl Grosvenorrose and said, it would depend very much on the answers he should receive from the noble Secretary of State for the War Department, whether he would assent to the Bill then going into the committee, or move that the order should now be discharged, that it might be renewable for a future day. There were some very important points, connected with the military exertions of the country, on which he wished to receive information; and he would slate to the House what he had himself heard, and which, if true, was highly deserving of their lordships' most serious consideration. He had learned that the practice had lately obtained footing in the army, of transferring large bodies of persons, sentenced to imprisonment on board the hulks, to be attached to regular regiments. To the proceeding which had heretofore prevailed, he meant not to object. No good reason could be assigned against the introduction of a few persons into the army, who felt sincere contrition for their improper conduct. To prevent them would be an offence against humanity, for it was only giving to those, whose errors were venial, and who saw them in their true light, an opportunity to retrieve their character, and to improve themselves in society, if the were recommended as worthy of that favour; and, without such a recommendation, no secondary consideration should induce government to commute their punishment for service in the army. But, had they been always thus introduced in small bodies, that dissatisfaction which was felt in particular regiments, which beheld them entering the service, as it were, in armies, would never have existed,
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and he would not have had to complain of so mischievous a system—The next point on which he would touch, though not immediately coming under the cognizance of the noble Secretary opposite, was certainly connected with the situation of the illustrious Commander in Chief. He alluded to a report which had been spread, that orders had been issued to the recruiting Serjeants of certain regiments not to enlist Irishmen, while foreigners were admitted without scruple. Why this exclusion should prevail, he knew not. It had been said, indeed, that the Irish were addicted to desertion. He gave no credit to this calumny; for he knew there were no braver, more generous, or more faithful soldiers than those of Ireland. They received any kindness done to them with gratitude; they repaid it with unvarying affection; and if they ever did desert, it arose from severity of treatment. He expected an answer from the noble Secretary, whether such orders had ever been in existence, and, if they had, whether they were now annulled?—He next came to the establishment of schools for the education of the military, a measure, which reflected infinite honour on the illustrious individual at the head of the army, as shewing an earnest desire to call the attention of the soldiery to their best interests. With respect to the system which had been adopted, he wished to make one or two remarks. In the first place, he understood that those military schools were founded on the principles of the established religion of the country. To that there certainly could be no objection. He had also been informed, that the mode of instruction introduced in those schools, was the same as that made use of at Madras. Neither, he thought, could any fault be found with that proceeding. But a very strange feeling appeared to have gone abroad on this subject. Many persons imagined, from a paragraph in the Address of the Society who espoused the Madras method of education, that those schools were not only to be founded on the principles of the established religion, but that Dr. Bell's system, as at present developed, should alone be permitted, and that no alteration whatever should be allowed. If any improvement, however excellent, were proposed by Mr. Lancaster, or by any other individual, it was to be rejected; although tending to forward the great plan of national education. That such an opinion prevailed, absurd as it was, he felt perfectly convinced; and he

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stated it only for this reason, that the principle which many persons considered those schools as established on, and which feeling was calculated to do much mischief, might be officially disproved.—The noble earl next adverted to the compulsion which had been used to force the attendance of the soldiery at those schools. Undoubtedly, by the law, they might be compelled, by their commanding officers, to attend to their military duties; but that law, in his opinion, could scarcely be considered more powerful in compelling them to attend school, than it would be to force them to learn to dance, or to become masters of any other acquirement, not necessarily connected with their regular duties. But as the education which the soldier was likely to receive, must be extremely useful to him in every situation of life, he thought all disgust at attending military schools would gradually subside, and, therefore, no enactment appeared to him necessary on the subject.—His lordship then called the attention of the House to a subject which, at the present moment, was extremely important—he meant the mode of recruiting for the army. He lamented, most deeply, that the system which had been formed, in 1806, by a great statesman, the late Mr. Windham, was not pursued. If the House looked to the enlistment in the year he had mentioned, and compared it with the returns in the present, the falling off in the latter, if they took away from the account the numbers who had been drafted from the militia, would be found lamentable indeed; and the more so, as, by the volunteering system, the militia, the constitutional force of the country, was likely to be ruined. He would ask the noble Secretary, what course he intended to pursue? Whether he intended totally to discountenance that system, which his predecessor in office (lord Castlereagh) declared he would not discourage, but which, in reality, he had discouraged? After the short trial that system had had, which led to very great advantages, that noble lord professed, that he would not do it away altogether; he would not completely discourage it. But it was impossible not to feel, that the strong opinions expressed by that noble lord on the subject, must have had a powerful effect throughout the country; an effect hostile to that system to which he was known not to be friendly. He demanded of the noble Secretary whether he intended to revive the system of 1806,
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or to oppose and discourage it, as had been done?—He would now shortly advert to a subject, which had occasioned very general anxiety, he alluded to the practice of corporal punishment, which, for the last century, had been carried to such an extent in the British service. He confessed, while he was in the command of a militia regiment, such exhibitions were disgusting and shocking to his feelings, and he did all in his power to prevent its frequent occurrence. It was a practice condemned by many most respectable persons who had written on military subjects; and, in the last year, a clause had been introduced in the Mutiny Bill, by which an option was given to courts martial either to inflict corporal punishment, as the term was generally understood, or imprisonment. He knew not how far that well-intended clause had occasioned a relaxation of the more severe punishment. To ascertain that fact, it was in vain to enquire how far it had been acted on in general courts martial. Without the noble Secretary informed the House what effect the clause had on regimental courts martial, they must remain ignorant of the effect occasioned by the clause. This, however, he believed, that situations might exist, where, to take away, entirely, the power of inflicting exemplary punishment, would be attended with very bad consequences. But he supposed that the system would, at length, be so generally scouted by the army, as to render any specific enactment unnecessary.—The noble earl finally called the attention of the House to the excessive enlistment of foreigners in the English army, and the placing of foreign officers in the command of British troops. On this subject, he was sure their lordships felt a considerable degree of constitutional jealousy. In that statement, he was sure, even the noble lord on the woolsack would concur. The act of 1804 allowed 10,000 foreign troops in the country; by that of 1806, the number was increased to 16,000, and, beyond that, none were permitted. Now, he would maintain, that those who had incorporated any of those troops with the native force, or placed foreign officers at the head of British troops, had acted illegally, and were liable to punishment. He would contest that point with any learned lord, even the noble lord on the woolsack. He knew the laws were perplexed, but they ought to be made so plain and clear, that every person could understand them; and,

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therefore, there could be no presumption in his advocating an opinion founded on a particular statute, although contrary to that of the learned lord. His lordship concluded by hoping that the noble Secretary would return satisfactory answers to the inquiries he had made.
The Earl of Liverpooldid not feel it necessary to go at length into the different topics which had been touched upon by the noble earl, several of which were not at all connected with the Bill then before the House. If, for instance, any improper latitude had been taken, either in sending persons to the army, who had been imprisoned on board the hulks, or in enlisting foreigners, they were substantive and distinct questions, which must be argued on their own grounds, and ought not to operate as an interruption to the present Bill. With respect to the transferring of convicts, he would state, that the hulks had, for a considerable time, been placed under the superintending direction of one of the most intelligent magistrates in this country. The system adopted by Mr. Graham, and his exertions, had produced the happiest effects; and, when that magistrate saw that an offender was penitent for his former crimes, he certified the fact, and the reformed prisoner was allowed, in some cases, to enter the army. Without such a recommendation, it was never permitted. The number who were thus brought back to society, might now probably be greater than formerly; but this he attributed to the excellent system at present on board the hulks, which tended to ameliorate the morals of the prisoners. But, taking the number thus incorporated with the army, in the most extended view, it would be found very trifling. Perhaps, indeed, too great a number had been sent to some particular regiments. If such were the case, it was certainly to be lamented, and ought to have been avoided. Sure he was, however, that where crimes were committed through indiscretion, or were occasioned by misfortune, and the perpetrators of them having become penitent, were desirous of retuning to society, it would be most cruel to refuse them an opportunity; and, he would also observe, that many of the persons who were thus sent to the army, from their bodily strength, and their hardihood of constitution, were eminently adapted for a military life. He was surprised to hear the assertion of the noble earl, that orders had been given not
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to enlist Irishmen. Surely he must have known, that the people of that country formed the great strength and stamina of the British army, and to imagine that an-order, such as the noble earl had spoken of, could ever have been issued from head-quarters, was really ridiculous. With respect to those which were termed favourite regiments, every person must know, that their commander could not be prevented from refusing some individuals, and receiving others; and they certainly had a right to look minutely into the characters of those whom they enlisted. As to what the noble earl had said on the subject of education, it appeared to him to apply rather to diocesan than to military schools. But, it was his firm belief, that if any improvement in those schools were suggested, it would be carried into effect. The noble earl had expressed his regret, that the system of a much-lamented friend of his had not been followed up.' He certainly thought with his noble friend (lord Castlereagh,) that that system was most prejudicial to the recruiting service; and, in answer to what the noble earl had asserted, he would observe, that, under the present system, the army was more numerous, and better disciplined, than it ever had been. As to the drafting from the militia, from which the noble earl foretold such evils, he believed, and he was borne out by many experienced officers, that it would have a directly contrary tendency. Although, in the last year, many bloody battles and sieges had taken place, which necessarily induced a great loss of troops, yet, on looking to the returns, the British army would be found stronger now by 10,000 men, than it was at the commencement of the year, notwithstanding all those losses. He, therefore, had a right to infer, that, by adhering to the system which had produced such results, it would answer the most sanguine hopes of the country.—On the subject of corporal punishment he coincided with the noble earl, who seemed to think, that however much it was to be deplored, it could not be done away altogether. In the last session, a new clause had been introduced in the Mutiny Bill, leaving it optional with courts-martial to inflict imprisonment or the usual punishment; but, an adequate provision had not been made to carry that intention into effect, as no authority was given to confine offenders in the county gaols, which rendered it very difficult, in many situations, to exercise that discre-

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tionary power. There was also a defect in the Bill of last session, as no power was given to deduct part of the offender's pay, while suffering imprisonment; without which power, he was convinced, imprisonment would do more harm than good. The Bill on the table, however, had been altered, to meet both those cases. The delinquent was now liable to imprisonment in the county gaol, and only a certain sum was allowed for his subsistence.—Much had been said on the subject of enlisting foreigners. Parliament had decided, that, in the present state of affairs, part of the force of the country should be composed of persons of that description; and, when they contemplated the exertions which had been made by the enemy with the natives of foreign states; when they considered that France could not have done what she had done, without foreigners—the House would not deny, that we also had a right to repel her ambition, by making use of similar assistance. The noble earl, though he made the assertion, had not adduced a single instance of a foreign officer being placed at the head of British troops. At all events, these questions were not at all comprised in the Bill before them, and therefore ought not to prevent the committal of the Bill.
Earl Grosvenorwas sorry that the system of the year 1806, was not only to be discouraged, but, as he gathered from the noble lord, was to be annihilated. The noble lord, in what had dropped from him on the subject, had by no means explained what he had asserted as to foreign troops. He did not conceive himself bound to adduce any instance of foreign officers commanding British troops; but this he would say, that if a single foreigner had been placed in such a situation, those who appointed him had acted illegally.
The Bill then went through a Committee, and was reported without an amendment.