Sitting of 11 March 1812

MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. Wilsonrose, and after a few prefatory

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observations, entered into the origin and nature of the provisions of the law, as it now stood, respecting marriages contracted without the due consent of parents and guardians. He stated, that in consequence of many scandalous abuses prevailing at the period of the existing enactments, the other House of Parliament had directed the Judges to prepare a Bill for the purpose of remedying the evil. It could not now be alleged that the same grounds existed for continuing, as there undoubtedly were originally for making the provision to which his motion would refer. The hon. and learned gentleman then gave a representation of the act, as it affected illegitimate minors and orphans, without guardians legally appointed. He stated it to be his intention not to extend his proposed remedy to Ireland, nor to persons already married. He concluded with moving for leave to bring in a Bill to explain and amend an Act commonly called the Marriage Act, of the 26th Geo. the second.—Leave granted.

MOTION RESPECTING CONVICTS DISCHARGED UPON ENTERING THE ARMY OR NAVY.
Mr. Abercrombyhad not apprehended, when he first gave notice of this motion, that it would meet with any opposition; but as he now understood it would be resisted by the right hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department, he begged leave to state the grounds of his motion. The two circumstances to which he wished to call their attention, were the extended practice of admitting convicts into the military service of the country, and the greatly increased number of free pardons, The House would recollect that an hon. general had lately stated in that House that upwards of 143 persons lately discharged from the hulks had been admitted into one regiment. He was ready to agree, that this was a practice which, in certain cases and to a particular extent, was perfectly justifiable. His, complaint was, that there had evidently been an unwise and indefensible excess, and a total negligence in the exercise of the prerogative of the crown in this respect. Was the right hon. gentleman acquainted with all the circumstances of the individual cases in question? had he inquired into the particulars of the offences and characters of the persons pardoned; or had any reference been made to the judges who tried them? He knew from the right hon. gentleman himself, that none of these
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things had been done. He knew from his own confession, that all had been done on the mere report and representation of Mr. Graham, who though a highly respectable person, it was to be recollected held the office of superintendant of the Hulks, and who visiting the hulks merely about once a quarter, necessarily acted on the information of others. It was, therefore, for the House to consider, whether this description of persons was such, as that their representations formed a proper ground for inducing that House to sanction this unprecedented exercise of the executive authority. The question was not less connected with the administration of our penal law, than with the probable effects of such a system on the discipline and character of the army. The hon. and learned gentleman, after commenting on the inadequacy of the punishment inflicted by the system of confinement in the hulks, concluded by moving. "That there be laid before this House, a return of the number of persons who, since the 1st of January 1810, have been directed to be transported either after having been capitally convicted or by original sentence, and who have been discharged on condition of entering into the army or navy, and also of those who, within the same period have received free pardons; specifying the date of their conviction, the offences of which they were convicted, and the time of their discharge."
Mr. Secretary Ryderdeprecated the motion, but had no wish to screen himself from any responsibility for having advised the pardons, because, in so doing, he had followed precedent, Pardons had not.; latterly been granted to the extent as formerly. In one instance, he understood, that upwards of 500 had been allowed to enter into the army and navy. With respect to the present subject, the fact was, that Mr. Graham had represented to him that there were a number of persons whose conduct had been so correct, that they were fit objects for royal consideration. In consequence of this representation, he had thought it his duty to recommend those persons to be pardoned on condition of enlisting for life. It had been found that bad effects arose from sending them for life to serve abroad, and a communication was made to the Commander in Chief; the result was, that it was judged adviser able to permit the enlisting under these conditions, but the men were informed that it Jested with them whether they

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should revisit their native country again, and be returned to their families and friends. The House would agree with him in conceiving that there could not be a greater inducement to these persons to behave well during their confinement on board the hulks, than the knowledge that by their good conduct they might stand a chance of being restored to society. There was no principle so dangerous as that which went to exclude the chance of reformation, for if these persons were turned loose upon the world, without the means of earning their bread, and their characters gone, the probability was, that they would return to their evil habits. What was the case here? By permitting them to enter the army and navy, every objection was removed, and they most likely would be drawn from their old habits, and become as it were, new men, and good citizens. The hon. and learned gentleman was therefore wrong in supposing that it was improper to permit these men to enter. He had drawn his observations from the state of the convicts before Mr. Graham held the office of superintendant.—The right hon. Secretary then read a letter from a clergyman, stating the good behaviour of two men who had been liberated in 1810, after four years confinement, describing them as altered men. The general impression as to this mode of punishment was quite different to what the hon. and learned gentleman entertained. He was in the practice of receiving letters from the masters of apprentices, and servants serving on board the hulks, desiring that the rest of the sentences against them might be remitted, on account of the reformation in their conduct, and they would take them again into their service. That was the best proof which could be given of the utility of the punishment; for would it be believed that tradesmen would risk their property, if they were not convinced that their once dishonest servants were now trust-worthy? As to the numbers enlisted, the House, perhaps, were not aware, that they formed three strong, good, and efficient regiments. With respect to their general conduct since 1803, when they were first liberated, many testimonies were furnished. He had made many inquiries, and he found that their general conduct was very good; as soldiers they would not yield to any regiment for efficiency. In "the year 1807, colonel Gordon, then private secretary to the Commander in Chief, was at the bead of
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one of the regiments, and he spoke in high terms of that regiment when in Alderney and Guernsey. In a letter, which the right hon. Secretary read, they were stated to have received the thanks of the inhabitants of those islands for their good conduct, and it was stated, that out of the whole regiment, only two had attempted to desert. He then referred to the Gazette of the 6th of March, 1810, in which general Beckwith speaks in the highest terms of the Royal York Rangers, another of these regiments: and in general orders returns thanks to brigadier-general Wale and major Henderson, the commander, for the gallantry displayed in the conquest of Guadaloupe, and for the discipline which the regiment had evinced on this and former occasions during the last campaign. Any regiment might be proud to have been mentioned with such honour as that by which the York Rangers had been distinguished. He allowed he had been told by a gallant general, that offence had been given by allowing so many men from the hulks to enter into one regiment. He was sorry for it, and he was sure that by no one was it more regretted than by the illustrious personage at the head of the army. It was intended that it should not be known from what quarter these unfortunate persons had proceeded; unluckily, however, it transpired. But he trusted that no regiment could feel disgraced by the association of individuals who had shewn so much contrition for their former errors, and who had so well redeemed the pledge which they had given of future good conduct. As the present motion could tend only to revive unpleasant considerations, with respect to those unfortunate individuals, he for one must give it his most decided negative. If the hon. and learned gentleman could bring forward any particular case of impropriety in the granting of a pardon, he would most readily meet him upon it. He was not aware, however, of the existence of any such. He might have erred, but he had really used all possible diligence to ascertain the merits of the individuals in question, before he offered any advice with respect to them to the crown. It would have been much better for the public service, and for those unfortunate persons, had this discussion not taken place. He had deprecated it when the hon. and learned gentleman gave notice of the motion, and he trusted it would go no further.
Mr. Wynnthought, that it would be

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much better if such persons were placed at first in those particular corps, which had been set apart for them. In that case, if they behaved well, it might be allowed to them, as a great reward for their good conduct, to enter into some regular regiment of the line. This would be a great reward to them, as persons sent into those condemned regiments generally despaired of seeing their connections again. He instanced a case within his own knowledge, where one of those men, from good behaviour, had been allowed to go into another regiment, and was now in the confidential situation of pay-serjeant. He conceived, that it would not be considered nearly so degrading to the regular regiments, to have men come in among them recommended by their good conduct in other corps, as to have them sent directly from the hulks.
Mr. Sturges Bourneopposed the motion, and said that there was no branch of the royal prerogative which he should feel so little disposed to question as this.
General Fergusonwished to know, whether, in the selection of convicts for the army, morals or age was most attended to? He knew one of those persons, who was above fifty years of age, and had been a commissioned officer, and sentenced to death for forgery. As to the secrecy practised about where those men came from, he himself had seen thirty of them at one time driven into the barrack-yard, when the officer escorting them got a receipt for their bodies. It was not, therefore, very extraordinary that this secret should transpire.
Sir S. Romillycould see no objection to the motion. It was of great importance to know in what manner the selection was made from the hulks. Although he did not disapprove of some of the convicts being allowed to serve in the army or navy, yet he wished to know the principle upon which the selection was made. Although there was no prerogative more valuable than that of pardoning, yet there was none which should be exercised with more care, or attended with greater responsibility. He knew cases where pardons had been granted on motives which the prosecutors could not guess at. Men had been sent to Botany Bay at the expence of the country, and had immediately on their landing, and in some instances without setting a foot on shore, been pardoned and sent back in the same ship. When he heard of so large a number as
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500 convicts discharged at once, and sent into the army, it would appear more like a certain number of recruits being wanted for the army, than if it was the good conduct of such a number that had recommended them to a more honourable situation.
Mr. Wilberforceopposed the motion, as likely to do mischief. He thought that it was right, as much as possible, to throw a veil over the former offences of those whose good conduct had recommended them to be admitted into the army. It must be recollected, also, that many of those offences which were punished by transportation and imprisonment in the hulks, were not offences which implied any great depravity of mind; and when the temptations to which the poorer classes were sometimes exposed, as well as their want of religious education, were fairly considered, it would not be just to suppose a man absolutely irreclaimable, because he had committed some small theft, or other offence, which was visited with that punishment. He thought that it would be better to mix these men with other corps, than to form whole regiments of them.
Mr. Secretary Ryder, in explanation, said, that it was 120, and not 500, who had been lately sent to the army from the hulks. He had only stated that formerly 500 had been sent.
General Tarletondisapproved of mixing those men in the army. He remembered there was an objection a long time ago, to admitting those men, who were called gaol-birds, into the regular regiments. Since that time, however, the quality of the army had been much improved, by the system of enlisting from the militia, who were the flower of the country.
Mr. Abercrombyshortly replied. His object would be gained if, after this, men were sent from the hulks only in small numbers at a time, to join any particular corps; and he trusted that his motion, which some gentlemen seemed to think mischievous, would at least be attended with this good effect, that 120 convicts would not again be sent in one batch to a regiment.
The Motion was negatived, without a division.

FOREIGNERS IN THE BRITISH ARMY.
Colonel Palmerstated his anxiety to correct a misrepresentation he was sorry to have seen in the papers, of what he was reported to have stated in answer to the

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assertion, that an order had been issued to his royal highness the Prince Regent's regiment to exclude the admission of Irishmen. Being aware that there were some grounds for such statement, he did not at the time take upon himself to contradict it fully; but he was now enabled to state, from the highest authority, that no order of the kind had ever been issued. He admitted that the recruiting officers had received instructions from the commanding officer, col. Quintin, to enlist Englishmen in preference to Irish, and if any blame was to be attached to him for this, he begged, as far as his own opinion went of the propriety, to take his share. He had not stated, as reported, that his objection had been on account of the Irish deserting to the enemy; on the contrary, no one was more convinced than himself, in common, he believed, with every other British officer, of the loyalty, courage, and fidelity of the Irish. What he did state was, that the description of Irish they met with in this country were liable to desert, which was a reason for objecting to them; and to prove that his regiment entertained no national prejudice, they objected in the same manner, to various classes of their own countrymen—to ail Londoners, and inhabitants of manufacturing towns, and confined their recruits to that class of persons brought up to agricultural pursuits; for they found that Irishmen, and those of their own country, who were not in early life accustomed to the care of horses, made bad grooms—and thought the best infantry were objectionable as cavalry. He therefore trusted these reasons would clear his regiment of all suspicion of the motive which had been attributed to it. He would add, that this system was not confined (as had been stated) to his own regiment and the 15th, but that it was pursued by every English cavalry regiment in the service. He would only add, to prove that he never objected to Irishmen who were well recommended, and still less that he preferred foreigners, that the number of Irish then in the regiment exceeded that of the foreigners: and that the amount of the latter did not exceed thirty, out of a complement of nearly nine hundred. He concluded by observing, that it was an unpleasant subject, and that he should not have taken a part in the debate of last night, had he not felt called upon to do justice to a brother officer, than whom, he believed, there was not a more deserving man in the service, and to whom
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that credit for its appearance and discipline, which he trusted was not unworthily bestowed on the regiment, was due.

THE PRINCE REGENT'S LETTER TO THE DUKE OF YORK RESPECTING LORDS GREY AND GRENVILLE.
Lord Boringdonrose, and stated, that he held a printed paper in his hand, to which he wished to call the attention of the House. It purported to be a Letter from the Prince Regent to his royal brother the Duke of York, and bore the signature of his royal highness the Prince. The object of it was to make certain propositions to two

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noble lords, members of that House, whom he saw in their places; but as it related to matters of the highest political importance, it formed a subject well worthy the notice and consideration of their lordships. Seeing the noble Secretary of State in the House, be would take the liberty of asking him whether this printed paper was genuine, and really a letter from his royal highness the Prince Regent, as it purported to be: or if the noble secretary should be prevented by any technical difficulty from giving a direct answer to that question, he should be contented with his barely not denying its being genuine and authentic. It would be right to have this point distinctly ascertained and recognized before he founded a motion upon the paper in question.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the noble lord could not expect an answer to such a question, and he should not give any answer.
Lord Boringdonsaid, the noble lord had hot denied the genuineness of the letter; an answer, purporting to come from two noble lords to that letter, had also been published, and he wished to know if it Was the answer of those noble lords? Understanding that to be the case, he should feel it his duty to call their lordships' attention to the subject on Friday se'nnight. That his royal highness the Prince Regent in writing that letter was actuated by the purest and most patriotic motives he was in duty bound to believe, and in his conscience he was satisfied, that however there might be some unfortunate expressions in the letter, that the object of his Royal Highness was to form an administration on a fair, a liberal, and a broad basis. The melancholy issue was already known, and the darkest and most gloomy prospects now surrounded us. Dangers pressed upon us on every side, whilst the means of averting the ruin which menaced the country were weakened. It was a subject of vital importance to the people, and therefore, however feeble the effort might be, he felt it to be his duty to make an attempt to avert the dangers which threatened us. He again expressed his conscientious conviction, that the object of the Prince Regent was to form an administration on a fair, a broad, and a liberal basis, and he was at the same time convinced that the answer of his noble friends to the letter of his Royal Highness, had been much misunderstood and misrepresented.
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The purport of his motion was intended to be an humble Address to the Prince Regent, that he would earnestly endeavour to adopt such measures as would tend best to promote the interests of the country, by ensuring security and tranquillity at home, and respect and consideration abroad. It was possible, how-ever, that in the interval he might see reason to alter the form of his motion. He therefore moved that the Lords be summoned for Friday se'nnight.
Lord Grenvillesaid, that reserving his sentiments till the discussion of the motion, of which notice had been given by his noble friend, he thought it his duty not to be backward in avowing the answer to the letter alluded to by his noble friend to be his. There were some clerical errors in the publication, but they were of little consequence. The substance was the same. The sentiments contained in that letter were such as naturally arose at the time in his breast—they were those which his duty to his royal highness the Prince Regent dictated—they were those which were dictated by his duty as a subject of the country.
Earl Greythought it unnecessary to add any thing to what had been stated by his noble friend, except to avow his concurrence in the sentiments contained in the answer sent by his noble friend. There were some clerical errors in the publication, but they were not of consequence, and did not materially alter the substance. He thought it right, however, to state, that he did not authorise the publication, and how the letter and the answer found their way into the public prints he knew not. He, however, fully concurred in the sentiments expressed in that answer, conceiving them to be those which it was his duty to concur in declaring.
The Duke of Norfolksaid, the noble lord had his thanks for bringing this important subject before the House, but he wished, for the sake of convenience, that an earlier day could be fixed upon for the discussion.
Lord Boringdonmentioned Thursday the 19th instant, which was agreed to, and the Lords were ordered to be summoned for that day.