Sitting of 27 February 1812

PETITION FROM HULL RESPECTING COMMERCIAL LICENCES.
Mr. Staniforth presented a Petition from several merchants, ship-owners, and other inhabitants of the town of Kingston-upon-Hull, setting forth,
"That the petitioners, being deeply impressed with a sense of the magnitude and extent of the evils arising from the present system of granting licences to foreign Vessels to trade between this country and ports from which the British flag is excluded, beg leave to approach the House with a statement of their opinion on a subject, as it appears to the petitioners, of the very last importance to the commercial interests of the united kingdom; and that the House is well aware, that the port of Hull has long been most intimately concerned in the Baltic trade, to that trade, indeed, may principally be ascribed its prosperity and mercantile importance;
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but, within these few years, the hostile attitude of the northern powers has been followed by a corresponding pressure upon it; the intercourse with the north of Europe has however at no time been wholly discontinued, notwithstanding the exclusion of the British flag from its ports; and it is to the manner in which this intercourse has been, and continues to be carried on, that the petitioners now humbly and earnestly pray the attention of the House; and that the papers and documents on the table of the House will shew that licences are granted by the Board of Trade to foreign vessels, authorizing them to carry on commerce between this country and ports which do not admit its flag; encouragement is thus held out to the ship-builders of the continent, by affording them the chance of sale for their ships to those British subjects who avail themselves of the protection of licences, although in such cases, there is the advantage of the employment of British capital; yet it is manifestly obtained at the expence of our own shipbuilders and sailors, whose place is supplied by a race of aliens; and that a very large proportion, however, of the ships themselves is really the property of foreigners, who receive an enormous sum for freight, not less than three times the amount of what would be paid for similar voyages in a time of unrestricted commerce; this the petitioners would point out as a ruinous drain on the resources of the country, and as contributing, in a most important degree, to the present unfavourable course of exchange, and the deranged state of the currency; it is also a lamentable fact, that numbers of British licences have been publicly sold on the continent, and that, by means of those licences, and even under the protection of British convoys, our enemies have been supplied, to a great extent, with naval stores, conveyed directly into their own harbours from different ports of the Baltic; and that, in the whole of the extensive trade carried on under the protection of British licences, foreign sailors are necessarily and exclusively employed; and the petitioners do not know that any language of theirs can speak more forcibly than the statement of this simple fact; it is in direct violation of those principles of navigation, an adherence to which has been a great cause of our prosperity, a safeguard of our independence, and with which the commerce of this country must

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rise and fall, thousands of men, the subjects of hostile states, are trained up at our expence, enriched with our wealth, inured in our employ to the toils of a seafaring life, and made acquainted with every creek and headland of our coasts that the petitioners have been eye-witnesses of the rapid and astonishing improvement in the appearance and skill of these men during the last few years, and they cannot but be deeply sensible of the immense advantages thereby accruing to the already gigantic power of France, especially in the event of an attack upon our shores, which, the petitioners conceive, the present system tends most materially to encourage and accelerate; and that the losses arising from capture, from extra insurance, and from fraud on the part of the foreign captains employed, are severely felt; but there is another point of view, contemplated in which, the subject presents itself in awful and alarming colours, and forces itself upon their serious consideration; and that the petitioners regard the honour and the good faith which have hitherto been conspicuous in the character of British merchants, as dearer to them than any advantage which the commerce of the world can offer as a compensation for them; and that the system of licences, by rendering it necessary for the ships to be provided with sets of forged, or, as they are termed, simulated papers, has a direct tendency to subvert this honourable character, is therefore, in the judgment of the petitioners, a most weighty argument against it, and cannot be too strongly inculcated on the minds of our countrymen; the young men on whom in future will devolve the management of the commercial transactions of this kingdom, are thus familiarized with a course of systematic falshood, and accustomed daily to witness acts of forgery and perjury, which are destructive not merely of mercantile probity, but of that general feeling of moral rectitude, which is the best bulwark of a state, and for her pre-eminence in which our country has hitherto been so highly and so justly distinguished; and that the petitioners are firmly convinced that the preservation of this moral principle is necessary to the prosperity of these dominions, at the same time that they are not insensible to the effects of the present interruption to free intercourse with foreign countries; they trust therefore that the House will give them
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credit for their sincerity, when they state that they would rather submit to still greater privations than consent to pursue the system now acted upon, and of which they have, on the above grounds, ventured to express their unqualified abhorrence; and that, if a blockade of hostile ports, especially those of the Baltic, be deemed, as the petitioners judge it to be, advisable, they would humbly recommend that it be full and complete, and not rendered ineffectual by licences or evasions of any kind whatsoever; and they are persuaded that, both in a commercial and a financial point of view, this country is more able than its enemies to bear the pressure in such a case unavoidable; and that, had it been sooner adopted, we should ere this have come to an amicable arrangement with the Northern states of Europe; and that the petitioners will not dwell on the encouragement which a change of the present system would hold out to our North American colonies, which are capable of supplying us with many of the articles hitherto procured from the Baltic, but they will conclude by begging leave to refer, for the proof of their assertions, to the official papers laid before the House, which will shew more accurately than it is in their power to do, the extent of the commerce carried on under licences, and the number of ships and sailors employed therein; and that they feel the subject in question to be of momentous importance to the nation at large, as well as one in which their peculiar interests are more particularly involved; and praying the House to take into its most serious consideration the system of granting licences to foreign vessels, and to apply such remedy as in their wisdom may appear to be best suited to the exigencies of the case."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

PROCEEDINGS RELATING TO THE EXPULSION OF MR. BENJAMIN WALSH.
Mr. Bankes Mr. Bankes moved that the order of the day be read for the attendance in his place of Mr. Benjamin Walsh.
Mr. Abercrombywished to ask the hon. gentleman whether it was his intention to proceed on the subject that evening? If so, he begged to submit to his consideration that the papers which constituted the greater part of the case, were but that moment delivering to the members, and that there was still another piece of evidence to be produced, namely, the Letter from

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Mr. Walsh to his brother, charging himself with the guilt of the recent transaction. There was another circumstance which he hoped would induce the hon. gentleman not to press the consideration of the subject at that moment, and that was, that there were several hon. members who to his knowledge were desirous of expressing their sentiments upon it, but who were absent from the House under the idea that as on Thursdays motions preceded orders, the motion of an hon. baronet would in the first instance have been gone into.
Mr. Bankesreplied, that he came fully prepared to bring under the consideration of the House the question of Mr. Walsh's conduct; and that unless very grave and substantial reasons indeed were adduced, he was persuaded that this was one of the matters which the House could feel no disposition to postpone. Although the printed copies of the papers had, as the hon. gentleman had said, been delivered but that day, that appeared to him of little consequence. There was only one line in those papers on which he should rest the motion, that he felt it his duty to submit to the House, and that was, that Mr. Walsh had been found guilty of the felony laid in his indictment. With respect to Mr. Walsh's letter to his brother, it would be produced at the bar of the House by Mr. Jenkyns the solicitor, and would be read distinctly and audibly by the clerk at the table. This in his opinion, would afford the House an ample opportunity of judging of its tendency. The thing would speak for itself in the most unequivocal terms; and the latter would exhibit a complete avowal of a guilty mind and a guilty act. If, after having heard this letter, the House should think further delay necessary, however unwillingly, he must bow to their opinion. There was one argument of the hon. gentleman's, which he could by no means allow. He could not admit that under such circumstances the absence of any hon. members afforded a just ground for postponing the consideration of the subject. The hour was by no means unusually early, and it ought to be known to every member of parliament, that matters of privilege took precedence of all other questions. He put it to the House whether or not they wished that the business should proceed? (A general cry of, Go on, go on!)
Mr. Lambthought that there could not be a more grave and solemn reason as-
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signed for delay, than that hon. members were not in full possession of the evidence on the subject. The question was one of a novel nature, and would therefore establish a precedent. It was not therefore consistent with a due regard to the privileges of the House to proceed so suddenly and hastily in the determination of it.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, there could be but one opinion as to the gravity, weight, and solemnity of this question, on which it was not possible for him to anticipate what would be the judgment of the House. He had looked a good deal into the case, and possessed himself as much as he could of its nature and bearings, and he must say, that when gentlemen who had not yet entered upon its consideration, came to bestow upon it their attention, they would find that it was one of great magnitude and difficulty. He could not, therefore, help thinking, that it would be advantageous to allow further time for the obtainment of full and complete information. It was a very short time since the papers before the House were produced, and as had been justly remarked, the most important document relating to the case had not yet beet brought up. On these grounds he wished to submit to the hon. gentleman and to the House, the propriety of hearing the Letter from Mr. Walsh to his brother read, and then, after they had had an opportunity of considering all the documents together, as well as the precedents on their Journals, which bore upon the present case, they might come to a more fit and legitimate decision than if they proceeded to judgment on the crude materials of which they were now in possession. For these reasons he was anxious that the desire expressed by his hon. friends for delay, should be acceded to.
Mr. Bathurstsaid, he had already be-come sufficiently acquainted with the case, to be enabled to decide on what he thought the just and proper course for the House to pursue. The documents produced afforded a good ground on which they might proceed to judgment. But as there might be gentlemen who had not turned their attention to the subject with so much diligence as the hon. gentleman who preceded him, and as the papers had been so lately put into their hands, he could see no reason for pressing on the discussion, if any member thought a small delay would enable him to come to a more mature determination. They had, in his

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opinion, enough before them to act upon; but he would not therefore desire that those who might consider themselves as unprepared to decide, should be prematurely hurried to their vote. But conceding this much, he must, at the same time, observe, that he perfectly coincided with his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes) that on so grave and serious a question, deeply and materially affecting the character and privileges of the House, it would be highly censurable to allow any unnecessary time to be lost before they came to a decision.
The order of the day having been read,
Mr. Bankesobserving that he was the last man who would wish to be too hasty in pressing such a question, expressed his intention of postponing the decision of it until Monday.
The Speakerapprehended, that as the business was not then to be concluded, it would be necessary to make a fresh order for the attendance of Mr. Walsh in his place on Monday. In the first place, however, it would be expedient to ascertain whether Mr. Walsh had been served with the order of the House, requiring his attendance in his place on this day.
One of the messengers was called to the bar.
The Speaker.Mr. Skelton, have you served Mr. Benjamin Walsh, a member of this House, with the order of the House, requiring his attendance in his place on this day.
Messenger.Yes, Sir, I have. I saw Mr. Walsh yesterday morning at ten o'clock, and he told me he had received from his brother the order which I left at his house on Tuesday night.
The messenger having withdrawn, Mr. Jenkyns, the solicitor, was, on the motion of Mr. Bankes, called to the bar.
The Speaker.Mr. Jenkyns, you were the solicitor to the prosecution against Mr. Benjamin Walsh, a member of this House?
Mr. Jenkyns.Yes, Sir.
The Speaker.Have you brought with you the letter mentioned in the order of this House, purporting to be a letter from Mr. Benjamin Walsh to his brother?
Mr. Jenkyns.I have.
The Speaker.Are you acquainted with the hand-writing of Mr. Walsh?
Mr. Jenkyns.No; I am not.
The Speaker.Is there any body with you who is acquainted with it?
Mr. Jenkyns.Yes; Mr. Atride.
Mr. Atride appeared at the bar.
The Speaker.Mr. Atride, are you ac-
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quainted with the hand-writing of Mr. Benjamin Walsh?
Mr. Atride.Yes.
The Speaker.Have you ever seen hint write?
Mr. Atride.I have.
The Speaker.Look at that letter, and inform the House, whether it is the hand-writing of Mr. Benjamin Walsh?
Mr. Atride.I believe it is.
The Speaker.Do you entertain any doubt on the subject? Look at the whole of the letter.
Mr. Atride.I have no doubt that this is Mr. Walsh's hand-writing.
The Speaker.Have you ever seen that letter before?
Mr. Atride.Never.
The Speaker.Mr. Jenkyns, were you at the trial of Mr. Walsh?
Mr. Jenkyns.Yes.
The Speaker.By whom was that letter delivered into the court?
Mr. Jenkyns.By the Solicitor General;
The Speaker.In whose custody has it been ever since?
Mr. Jenkyns.In mine, Sir.
The Speaker.Is that the identical letter delivered into court by the Solicitor General on the trial of Mr. Walsh, and kept by you ever since?
Mr. Jenkyns.It is.
The Witnesses were then ordered to withdraw. The letter dated Dec. 5,1811, was read by the clerk. (See it at p. 940.]
Mr. Bankes Mr. Bankes moved that it be printed.
Mr. Lockhartwished to know whether to agree to the printing of this paper would be to entertain the charge brought forward against Mr. Walsh? If so, it would be a grave subject for the consideration of the House, and he requested, therefore, to be favoured with the opinion of the Chair.
The Speakerapprehended that the letter was part of the proof against the hon. member. What decision the House would come to on the charge, it would be for them to determine, when they came to consider the evidence of which this letter was a part.
Mr. Lockhart, understanding that the letter was to be received as evidence of the charge, objected most strongly to its reception, because it was only evidence of a most dishonourable and infamous transaction between one individual and another. He hoped the hon. gentleman did not mean to adduce it in support of the record of Mr. Walsh's conviction. That could not be done, for the contents of the record

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must be its only support. If it were intended to rely on the letter in the event of the record not being considered sufficient to warrant the House in acquiescing in the ultimate proposition of the hon. gentleman, then he trusted the House would appoint a committee to search for precedents, in order to discover whether any such charge as that which could be founded on the letter had ever been entertained by parliament; and whether parliament had ever proceeded to expel a member on the knowledge of a transaction, however infamous, between one individual and another. He had made diligent inquiry on the subject, and he could find only one case in the year 1670, in which Sir Edward Thomas having complained of frauds and abuses on the part of his son towards himself, the House did entertain the charge: but they afterwards threw it out as not being on sufficient grounds, and decided that only those charges could be entertained which were founded on transactions infamous in a public point of view. All such transactions resolved themselves into four classes. The first, cases of persons who were found infamous by the records of their convictions in criminal courts of law; secondly, cases of persons who had been in open rebellion; thirdly, cases of persons guilty of corrupt and improper practices, as members of that House; and, fourthly, cases of persons guilty of offences against the public. Never, however, was a charge entertained founded on a dishonest transaction between man and man. To entertain such charges would be to make the House of Commons a great court of judicature, authorised to examine every private transaction that was alleged to be improper: and the ultimate purposes to which such a power might be applied no one could foresee; that it would be productive of enormous inconvenience was evident, and he therefore pressed for the appointment of a committee, before a precedent was established calculated to be so injurious in its consequences.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerconfessed himself unable to distinguish the letter from the other documents on the subject, or to understand why the ordering of the letter to be printed was more completely to entertain the charge than the ordering of the printing of the other documents. The hon. gentleman seemed to have misconceived what fell from the chair. The charge was not at present before the House in a shape to be entertained, nor would it
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be so until there was a motion on the subject. He apprehended that the hon. mover of the proposition had moved for the record of conviction, the judge's letter, &c. and had moved that those documents be printed—that he had examined the witnesses at the bar—that he had obtained from one of them, Mr. Walsh's letter to his brother, and that he now moved that that letter be printed—all for the purpose of taking those preliminary steps which would enable the House to judge whether or not the charge ought to be entertained. The printing of the letter could by no means prejudge the question of entertaining the charge. He had no difficulty in admitting that the question was one of very grave consideration, and that the House must well weigh how far they could with safety and propriety adopt the charge without establishing a precedent which might be found productive of serious inconvenience.
Mr. Wynnobserved, that by what had been already done, the letter must appear on the Journals, and must be transmitted to posterity, as having been received and read in the House, just as completely as if it were ordered to be printed. The objection might with more propriety have been made to the motion on Tuesday for its production.
The Letter was then ordered to be printed.
The Speakersaid, that this was the proper time to acquaint the House, that he had received two letters from Mr. Walsh, intimating his intention of not appearing in his place, but not ascribing that intention to any bodily incapacity. As he could not find in the Journals any precedent of a written defence having been received from members, who, having been ordered to attend, failed to do so, without attributing his non-attendance to bodily incapacity, he would not read those letters, unless it were the pleasure of the House that he should do so.
On the motion of Mr. Bankes, Mr. Benjamin Walsh was ordered to attend in his place on Monday.

SIR THOMAS TURTON'S MOTION ON THE STATE OF THE NATION.
Sir Thomas Turtonbegan by observing, that when he considered the importance and magnitude of the question to which he was about to call the attention of the House; when he considered the present critical state of public affairs, and the alarming aspect

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under which they now presented themselves to the contemplation of the country; and when he, at the same time, considered that the present question had hitherto been introduced to their discussion by some leading member of either of the great contending parties, and that the humble individual who was on that night to bring it before them was wholly unsupported by the aid of any party or the authority of any influence;—when all these considerations' crowded on his mind, he confessed that he was but too justly apprehensive of appearing to have acted with a hasty indiscretion and a presumptuous confidence. But the time was now come, when public duty should be discharged, independent of every personal consideration. If he brought with him the aid of no party, neither did he bring with him the motives or prejudices of party. It was not his intention to weary the indulgence of the House, by any very detailed examination into those topics which had been already so amply discussed, or again to tread over the ground long trod before. He should, in the course of his observations, touch upon the war in the peninsula—and here, he observed, that the true merits of this extensive question had never been yet fairly and fully before the House; and, indeed, if he were to confine all he had to offer to that one subject, he thought he should find, even in that alone, ample matter to persuade the House to grant the motion with which he should conclude. But he should not confine himself to that part of the subject: he should take a short review of the leading public events since the right hon. gentleman came into office. He should endeavour to shew the House what appeared to him to be the awfully alarming state of the country; and, what in his mind was not the least alarming symptom, the lethargy of that House for so long a time, and while such events were passing. He should call upon them, in the name of their country, to rouse from their torpor, and ask every unprejudiced man if, seeing the condition to which they were at last reduced, he could conscientiously ay his hand upon his heart, and say there was not sufficient ground for going into the committee. His view should be directed a little further back than the time at which the present ministers entered on office.
The year 1806 had terminated most disastrously for the liberties of Europe. He should not stop to say any thing upon
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the ineffectual struggles of Russia against France, or upon the selfish and dastardly policy which at that time dictated the perfidious conduct of the court of Prussia. In the following year the battles of Eylau and Friedland—the last of which was fought, he believed, after the right hon. gentleman had come into power—those battles might be said to have decided the fate of the continent, and to have fulfilled the prediction of Sully, that France would one day arrive at the universal dominion of Europe. The peace of Tilsit left France no enemy to contend against but England—all her means were immediately directed against our commerce, and the Berlin and Milan Decrees had about as much effect against England as ours taken in retaliation had against France. The first expedition sent out by the new administration was that of Copenhagen. All the applause he could give ministers, they should have from him most willingly—he regretted that their conduct had rendered the portion he could spare them so very inconsiderable; but of the Copenhagen expedition he had originally approved, and his opinion remained unaltered. If the merits of that expedition were to be considered according to the naked abstract principle merely, nothing could be more atrocious or more profligate: but where was the maxim, however generally true, that must not give way to necessity, and in that case he thought the necessity justified the expedition.—The hon. baronet next adverted to the breaking out of the war in the peninsula. A right hon. gentleman, whose fervour on all great public questions was so well known—he meant the member for Ilchester (Mr. Sheridan'), had come down, and in his place in that House had with his accustomed eloquence called the immediate attention of ministers to the critical state of Spain. There was in short but one heart, but one mind, but one feeling within that House and throughout the country, as to the necessity of giving Spain the most speedy, cordial, and effectual assistance. Ministers might be said to have been almost invited by parliament to ask for their aid. In such a state the first duty of ministers was to have so arranged with Spain, as that the assistance of this country might be given and applied in the best and most efficient manner; but there was no such plan resorted to—no method, no regulations or arrangements were thought to be previously-necessary. Ministers did nothing

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in co-operation with the Spanish government, to collect all the feelings of the Spanish people into one energetic effort, or to give that effort one great and uniform impulse. Nothing had been done to give tone to the Spanish government—they were left to themselves—and the first act was the publication of their "Precautions," calling upon the people to fight as mere partisans, never to hazard a general action, and to think of nothing more than hanging on and harrassing the enemy—and this was the government that shortly after called for an army of 550,000 men, of which 50,000 should be cavalry. He blamed not ministers for the errors of the Spanish government; but he thought that they were responsible to the country for not providing, as far as they could do, against the possibility of those errors defeating our co-operation, or rendering our assistance altogether nugatory.
To show, in some measure, what had been the effect of our assistance in Spain, he would just call the attention of the House to the two first campaigns. Sir Arthur Wellesley sailed on the 28th of July, 1808, He was sent to assist the Spaniards, and he landed at Corunna; where, however, he afterwards re-im-barked, and sailed for Mondego, at which place he effected a landing. On the 17th of August the affair took place which was followed up by the battle of Vimiera on the 21st. Sir Arthur Wellesley was the next day superseded in the chief command by Sir Harry Burrard, who was himself, shortly after, again superseded by Sir Hugh Dalrymple. Such fluctuation was there in his Majesty's councils as to the selection of a fit person for this command! He should not dwell upon the disgraceful Convention of Cintra, which, amongst other mortifying conditions, stipulated to place general Junot at the head of 25,000 men, in that identical spot whence he could roost speedily march to that part of Spain, where he could act against Spain and her allies most seasonably and effectually! From the 30th of August till the 16th of October, when Sir John Moore was sent out, no one step had been taken by ministers, though there was not, for the same length of time, a period since the commencement of the war in which so much might have been effected.—He then adverted to the campaign of Sir John Moore, who, he contended, had received no sort of co-operation from the Spaniards. He had reached Salamanca before he met
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with a single Spanish piquet. He thought the conduct of ministers, in risking the safety of the British army, without any knowledge of the intentions of the Spaniards, extremely reprehensible.—He then passed to the battle of Talavera; and, giving lord Wellington every credit for his skill and conduct in other particulars, he could not help censuring his march to Talavera, as a most imprudent one, when, even after a repulse of the enemy, however glorious, he was obliged to make a precipitate retreat, to the desertion of the sick and wounded in the hospital.—The remaining campaigns had, in every respect, the character of the two that preceded them:—hard-fought battles terminating in the repulse of the enemy—brilliant, perhaps, but certainly very unproductive.—He came now to that memorable Expedition, of which it would hardly be necessary to remind the noble lord opposite (Castlereagh.) It surely never could be out of his recollection. He was astonished to see the noble lord smile at any allusion to the dreadful tragedy of the Walcheren Expedition (hear, hear!); though, indeed, that noble lord might well smile to think that he had himself escaped the ruin to which he had devoted so many-thousands (hear, hear!). The avowed object of that expedition was to create a diversion in favour of Austria: and how had that object been answered? The battle" of Essling and Asperne had been fought on the 21st and 26th of May; and on the 28th of July, three weeks after the battle of Wagram, that laid Austria at the foot of France, sailed the Walcheren Expedition, to co-operate at Flushing with the ruins of the Austrian army in Bohemia! (hear, hear!)—But he should not dwell on the melancholy catastrophe—11,000 brave men left, for three months, to rot in the most pestilential climate in Europe, and then the whole object of the expedition totally abandoned! Though, indeed, they had been gravely told, by a right hon. gentleman (Mr. Yorke,) that the expedition had in part succeeded in its object, because, forsooth, we had destroyed a basin! And here he could not help observing upon the strange conduct of a right hon. gentleman then in his Majesty's councils (Mr. Canning,) in not openly declaring his real sentiments of the noble lord's utter incompetency for the situation he then filled: such a declaration must have compelled the noble lord to retire, or at least have saved the country the dis-

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grace and losses attendant on that Expedition. But what above all had been the conduct of that House? Had they brought the noble lord to trial by impeachment? Had they impeached the right hon. gentleman for continuing to act with one whom he believed utterly incompetent? Had they condemned the Expedition and impeached the authors of it? No; so far from it, they had passed a vote of approbation upon that Expedition—(hear, hear! from Mr. Perceval and others!)—and was not this a ground for inquiry?—He knew that the right hon. gentleman, the minister of the country, thought himself invulnerable, and regarded the attacks of such humble men as himself as mere flea-bites.—But what would the country say, what would posterity say of such a vote? what would future historians say of it? Upon the noble lord's quitting office,—the only good effect of that Expedition,—the rage for expeditions somewhat subsided; but now that he saw the noble lord sitting where he did, he could not divest himself of all apprehension that more expeditions, as honourable and as advantageous to the country as that to Walcheren, might probably be tried.
With regard to the means afforded by Spain, and their proportion to the end they had in view, or whether any cooperation it could afford to this country, would be sufficient to bring the struggle in which it was engaged to a favourable termination, that was a question which he should much like to hear discussed, and one, upon the result of which he thought the future efforts of this country should depend. What, he would ask, was the situation of Spain at present? He might be told that the Spanish government was changed, but he found it had undergone no material alteration. Badajoz, Gerona, Tortosa, Valencia, and almost every place of strength in the country, was in the hands of the French, and nothing more than one or two fortresses in the hands of the Spaniards themselves. The armies of Spain were not improved;—her government had hot improved. This situation of affairs afforded no great probability of success; and to subject the country to such enormous expenditure, without a prospect of terminating the struggle to the advantage of Great Britain and her allies, was not certainly the part of wisdom. He would not consent to go on incurring such vast expences, unless there was some hope afforded of bringing the business to a
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speedy termination; but he was sorry to say, that no such hope could be entertained. The conduct of their government was not such as could secure the attachment or confidence of the people. The people, when a fit opportunity was presented for removing some of the grievances under which they had long laboured, so far from deriving any advantage from the change of affairs that had taken place, were at this present moment without the enjoyment of religious liberty; and when the liberty of the press was moved for, the Cortes referred it to the consideration of the Inquisition. It was well known that two priests were made the censors of all publications that appeared in the country. Would any man say that those were the measures which could ensure the reverence, or the zeal of the people for the struggle in which they were employed? That government had imperiously required of us in our mediation between them and their South American dependencies, to abandon the latter if they did not acknowledge the Cortes. That government had expressed its approbation of general Lapena's conduct, though be did not give the least assistance in the battle of Barossa, but remained during the whole time in an adjoining wood. The government of that country should now be addressed in the same bold and decided language which the marquis Wellesley had upon a former occasion used to them; they should be told that a reform was necessary both in the civil and military departments of the country, and that upon no other condition were they worthy of a zealous adherence to their cause. He, for his part, would not consent to any further assistance to that country unless he saw some prospect of success. It should be proved, that our resources were not likely to be thrown away in a fruitless struggle,—if such proof could be adduced,—if even lord Wellington himself would say, that there was a probability of success sufficient to warrant the continuance of expenditure in favour of Spain, even upon such ground as the recommendation of that gallant general, he would be content to make further sacrifices, in the hope of an event that would be glorious alike to that country and this; but, without such assurance of probability, the annual expenditure of 11 or 12,000,000 l. for a war that might, for ought they knew, last as long as the Peloponnesian, was a thing which he could not consent to, and which

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the country could not bear. Sicily also had been a source of great expence to the country, (300,000 l. a year as a subsidy, and a million and a half a year to support an army there,) and some advantage should be proved to result from this mode of applying it. He believed some important changes had lately taken place in that island, and no change could render its situation much worse than it had been.—From Sicily he would pass to the East Indies. The question of the renewal of the company's charter was likely soon to be considered, and it was a subject of much importance; this was not the time for discussing it; but there was another no less important, which was the vast addition which had lately been made to the territorial possessions of the company. That acquisition had, in his mind, been exceedingly injurious to the finance of Great Britain. He had predicted long ago that such would be the result of it, but his predictions were not then attended to. It appeared, that the army by which those conquests were made, had been of late exceedingly discontented, and great evils were to be apprehended if such discontent were allowed long to prevail. But there was an important circumstance respecting that country which he could not but advert to. It appeared that the government of it had lately interfered with the administration of the criminal jurisprudence, and punished jurors for the conscientious discharge of their duty. This he could prove to be a fact, and that the judge advocate there was the person who had so interfered. [A cry of No! from some gentleman on the opposite side.] He insisted that his assertion was well founded; and he could prove it to be so. He would however now proceed to America. The contest with America had been nothing hitherto but a war of words. The rule of 1756, if it were intended to adhere to it, should never have been relaxed. If that rule was to be upheld, it should have been nailed to the mast of every British ship, and never, in any shape, given up; but it was relaxed with respect to America by the order of the 7th of January. The Americans were then satisfied.—(Hear! from the opposite benches.)—They were satisfied with the explanation, but not with the order by any means. This relaxation lasted from the 7th of January to the 11th of November. The right hon. gentleman opposite had then declared, that whole
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coasts might be placed in a state of blockade, even without sufficient ships for carrying such resolution into effect; and a precedent was brought from the conduct of this country and Holland against Louis 14. He did not approve of that order which obliged the Americans first to come to this country, and after the payment of a certain duty, to depart with their cargoes for the continent. We had no right to insist upon neutrals first touching at our ports. Circumstances were in this posture in 1810. They found Buonaparté not induced by the measures of this country to relax his decrees. The government of this country should then have consulted the interests of the country; and when the Americans announced that Buonaparté had rescinded his decrees, they should have gladly seized the opportunity, and withdrawn the Orders in Council. On the contrary, the government said, they saw no bona fide repeal of the Berlin and Milan decrees. It was nonsense to talk of bona fides on the part of Buonaparté; but if any opportunity had offered for recovering the commerce of the country, it should not have been lost. He had before avoided mentioning this subject, through an apprehension that it might injure any proceedings for an adjustment that were on foot. No such effect could now follow, for the papers on this subject were before the world, and he wondered how the production of them could have been refused on a former night. The minister had thought proper to refuse a committee for inquiring into the state of Ireland. When the simple subject with respect to that country was, whether Ireland should be our friend or our foe,—whether the empire was to derive that assistance from all her energies which Ireland was so well able to afford, and without which England could not continue to exist, sure he was that no more important matter could be brought before the wisdom of parliament. Even if Catholic emancipation were not to be granted, was that all that the Irish nation wanted? Removing that entirely out of sight, was nothing to be done for the commerce of Ireland? Were no schools to be established for the education of her children? Could nothing be done with respect to her tithe system? Were there not, in fact, a thousand points in which the interests of Ireland could be considered with-out reference at all to Catholic emancipation. He was sorry, that the government had not met the question of Ireland,

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when it was last before the House, with more temper than they evinced. If 500 men chose to assemble in a room and even to conduct themselves intemperately, was that to be used as an argument for denying the constitutional claims of five millions? He would proceed to take a view of the internal situation of the country. Our army, it appeared from the returns amounted, including local militia, to 807,000 men. Now what population had we to support such an immense military establishment, and to carry on the agriculture of the country? Our male population was calculated at 6 millions, and taking that of Ireland at 2 millions, a total was formed of 8 millions; so that our army of every description constituted one in ten of our whole male population. He would be told that this was a war of an unusual character, and that it had become necessary for us in a great measure to make ourselves a military nation. He regretted that it was so; and he was sorry to observe that while we were decking our warriors with laurels, we had also too frequent occasion to plant their graves with cypress. He begged to press it on the consideration of the House that this was a war which could be supported only by economy and by husbanding our resources. An armament so much above the adequacy of our population, he contended this country could not continue to afford. Again as to the expences of the war, the estimates for the present year, so far as they could be calculated, might amount to 31 millions, or about 7 millions sterling more than last year. This was an expenditure which he hardly need say the country could not bear for any length of time. What then was the state of our revenue? Our funded and unfunded debt amounted to 650 and odd millions. It had increased 114 millions in the course of the present war. With whatever spirit therefore the war might be carried on, unless we husbanded our resources in time we should not have the means of prosecuting it to a conclusion, but might be compelled eventually to stop short at the very moment when victory was in our grasp. It might be said that the war was unavoidable. What however was the situation in which we stood, and what were our means of carrying it on? The surplus of the consolidated fund was 2,800,000 l. less this than the last year; and our taxes were less productive this year by 2 millions. Instead of this deficiency becoming less
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in future, there was every reason to believe that it would go on increasing year after year. It had been in a manner admitted that it was not possible to find any new taxes to impose by which this deficiency might at all be compensated. If therefore we could not find an income to meet our expenditure, nothing remained for us but to bring our expenditure to meet our income. The customs too had suffered a decrease of 890,000 l. during the present year, and an increase in this defalcation must be expected in each succeeding year as long as the present system continued. The necessity therefore of at least enquiring into our situation could not but be apparent. He knew it would be said that nobody was with him, that the country was against him, and did not wish that the cause of Spain should be abandoned. Neither would he wish it if he saw any likelihood of rendering the Spanish cause effectual service. Might we not try what could be done by peace? In the speeches from the throne we heard not a word of peace; but ought not the House to enquire if something might not be effected by a pacific spirit? It was true he had heard the right hon. gentleman opposite declare that he had no personal objection to treat with Buonaparté. He hoped not, but then why was so much said about his mala fides? If a country ought never to make peace with bad monarch?, why did our ancestors make peace with Louis 14th, at the time he was oppressing this very country of Spain, and the Palatinate? Why on the same principle, had the continental powers made peace with this country during the usurpation of Cromwell? Might they not have taunted him with having murdered his royal master, and with being a canting hypocrite? If they had done so, would England have tolerated such language? And why then should we use such taunting expression at present, the only effect of which must be to excite useless irritation? At no period of our history would peace with any of the Bourbons have been at all more to be relied on in point of continuance, than would peace with Buonaparté at the present moment. Then why not meet him in the spirit of peace? He might perhaps be told that Buonaparté would not give up Joseph? How could our government know this if they did not try; and was not the object worth trying for? He was anxious not to compromise in the smallest degree the honour and integrity

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of the country; but still he could not agree that the present system should be persevered in, without an endeavour to see what could be done towards procuring peace.
He now came, he said, to a part of the subject to which he felt himself much more warmly, more anxiously alive. His thoughts imperceptibly drew him to America; and he could not help asking, "why not try what conciliation will do there?" The two countries were formed for friendship with each other,—habits and manners nearly assimilating, and mutual interest loudly calling out to run into each others arms:—it seemed to him there was nothing to keep them asunder, but a false pride. If this country chose to conciliate America by repealing the Orders in Council, an opening would once more be given to our commerce and manufactures. This was a measure peculiarly required for the preservation and the prosperity of the country. Alas! if we talked of the prosperity of the country at the present moment, where was it to be found? In a high minded aristocracy? No; our nobility were content to hide their heads in retirement or seek refuge at a watering place, instead of keeping open house, and shewing the ancient English hospitality. Was it to be found among our capitalists? Not in the great commercial capitalist, for he was obliged to lie on his oars. Not in the small capitalist, for though true it was, that his thirst for speculation to new colonies had swelled the columns of the export and import list, yet that thirst had also contributed to swell the columns of the gazette. Was it then to be found in the manufacturing classes?—Certainly not! for sad experience had shewn to what distresses they were reduced, living on riot, and organizing their proceedings in a manner the most astonishing. Was it to be found in the trade by licences, so hurtful in itself, and so disgracefully abused? Or, lastly, was it to be found in the total disappearance of the legal current coin of the realm? An evil which had grown to such a height, that we might expect, if the system were persevered in, to see our circulating medium more debased even than that iron money which had caused such complaints in Sweden. He declared that he had no intention to exaggerate in his statements. In his figures he knew he was correct; in his sentiments he had at least the merit of sincerity: and was this system, pursued so
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long, still to be persevered in? Rumour said it was,—so far at least as Spain was concerned, and that the right hon. gentleman was still to conduct it. For that right hon. gentleman he had a great personal respect, but the system he was pursuing was a bad one. Every beneficial measure proposed by that right hon. gentleman should have his support, but when he conceived a measure to be injurious, he must do his duty by opposing it. On the present occasion, if the right hon. gentleman fulfilled his duty to the country, he would agree that the House should go into a committee to consider of the unprecedented situation in which the nation was placed. If the right hon. gentleman resisted this proposition, then the House ought to address the Prince Regent, to inform his Royal Highness that he was wrong in surrendering his own judgment to those who counselled him to persevere in the present system;—that œconomy was absolutely necessary for the preservation of the country;—that reform in every department was loudly required;—and that a continuance of the existing order of things would overturn the constitution, and with it the throne, which his Royal Highness was called upon to fill. It would be the duty of the House to state these things to his Royal Highness, in respectful yet in firm and bold terms. For himself he should not have discharged his duty if he had not, though an humble individual, ventured on the task which he had now executed. If we did not agree to take a review of our situation, the result must be ruin. To avoid this was the object of his motion. He begged forgiveness of the House for having trespassed so long on their indulgence; but he was conscious that in what he had said he had been actuated by a sense of duty, and by the purest motives. He concluded by moving "That this House will resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to take into consideration the State of the Nation."
Mr. Tigherose to second the motion. He said, that he would not touch en all the topics which had been elucidated by his hon. friend, but content himself with an humbler flight. He would not follow his hon. friend into every region of the world through which he had wandered, to the delight and instruction of those who had the good fortune to hear his oration; but would confine himself to themes of more interest, though perhaps less susceptible

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of being adorned by eloquence. He would confine himself to home. He wished to awaken the first lord of the Treasury from the golden dreams which visited his pillow, and to admonish him that if ever there was a time when it was incumbent on us to look with a stedfast eye on our resources, it was the present. All that the right hon. gentleman seemed to think the House had to do was to furnish him with the ways and means fur the supplies he wanted. If the gentlemen who sat in that House were indeed the representatives of the people, they should duly inquire whether the people were really able to afford those sums of which they were drained by votes of that House, without the least attention to œconomy. One of the principal duties of the representatives of the people was to ascertain what were the resources of the country, and give information thereof to ministers. Through such a channel alone could ministers obtain proper information on that subject—from the creatures by whom they were surrounded they could not obtain it; they were interested in the continuance of a war, and the more interested the more expensive it was, and the more ruinous to the country. The first head of the fatal system we were pursuing which he would notice, was the war. He recollected to have read in the papers, at the commencement of the was, that France would soon become bankrupt; that it was a war of finance we were waging, and that in a short time the enemy could net afford to have a single vessel on the face of the ocean. What were we now told by the minister? Why, that France was possessed of one hundred sail of the line, and that nothing but the want of seamen prevented the French from coming over to this country. Now we knew but too well that the outage at Copenhagen had recruited the French navy, and that with the most hardy and the boldest sailors in Europe. The conscription in Holland had added considerably to its strength, and we were now about to give a still further augmentation in the whole power of the American navy; at least, if we did not, it would not be the fault of the minister. The probable state of the French navy, in a very short period of time, would be indeed formidable, and the state of the French land forces was actually such. Buonaparté had two large armies ready for offensive operations. Unincumber-
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ed with debt, and unimpaired in resources, he could direct the whole of his military force to any single object he might wish to accomplish; and who could doubt that the object nearest his heart was the destruction of this country? And what was the situation of this country that was to meet such hostility? It appeared that there was a deficiency in the consolidated fund to the amount, as stated by ministers, of 2,800,000 l. but in reality of 3 millions and a half. Great as that defect was, was there any likelihood that we should not find it in a short time much greater,—that the fund would not decrease in something more than an arithmetical ratio? Could it be considered without dismay that by the Orders in Council our trade with America was completely put down, a trade which enabled us to export to the amount of more than 12 millions of our most profitable manufactures, while our returns also were made in the most profitable manner, partly in raw materials, and partly by bills of exchange; obtained by the re-exportation of our manufactures to the continent of Europe. It was chiefly owing to the loss of this valuable trade, that the price of bullion had risen to an extent, such a" had created an alarm that had not yet subsided, nor was it reasonable to expect it would soon subside. The want of bullion was likely to be severely felt, for we certainly could not pay with paper for the quantity of corn we should have to import, to feed our starving manufacturers. Here was a subject not to be contemplated but with dismay. An insurrection was raging in the heart of the country, and this was not the less alarming because the insurgents acted on a mistaken notion. If they thought machinery prejudicial to their interests, and proceeded to its destruction, and thus to the destruction of the manufactures, the sources of our national wealth would be dried up—for those sources were to be found in the labour of our population, spite of the ingenious doctrines of the French economists, towards which ministers were now beginning to turn so favourable an eye. And what had been done to remedy the evil? The business had been wholly neglected for sis weeks after the parliament had met, and then no remedy could be devised but the bungling one of making the offence capital. Now it was well known that conviction was much more difficult when the offence was capital; so that there was

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some progress made rather towards the exasperation than the cure of the evil; and, really, experience was here along with theory, for, while the Bill was passing into a law, the spirit of insurrection had extended itself, and tidings had been received that much havoc had been made in the machinery of the woollen manufacture. But was it any wonder that people should be driven to desperation, and in their frenzy destroy the very funds to which they might look for the support of such existence as they might yet enjoy? He wished gentlemen to consider seriously the facts that had transpired with respect to the population of Liverpool. A committee had been appointed to inquire into the state of the poor in that town, and the result of their inquiries was, that there had been in one month, namely January, 1812, an increase of from 8,000 to 15,350. Now, if throughout the whole kingdom, there was a corresponding increase, and if the best, indeed the only remedy which had been devised were a halter, for this kind of engine for appeasing hunger there promised, unfortunately, to be ample employment; and he was of opinion, that ministers could not be too expeditious in proposing bounties for the growth of hemp; and if the right hon. gentleman were to make a tour for the purpose of visiting our great manufacturing towns, however ornamental his present escort might be, he was sure that on such an occasion it would be very appropriately changed for a gibbet.—There was another topic on which he could not touch without the deepest regret that so great a scandal should exist. He was much grieved to see the name of the sovereign of the country thrust into the public papers, and made the "common show and gaze o' the time." He alluded to the Letter which the Prince Regent had been made to address to the lords Grenville and Grey. There was no act which the sovereign could do for which, by the constitution of this country, some adviser or another was not responsible; and could the practical effects of this safeguard, which the constitution had provided for the subject, be any where more desirable than where the sovereign had been, as it were, trepanned by advice of the most insidious and treacherous nature? Why, the Prince had been made a sort of go-between to parties, a mediator between factions, a thing quite unheard of heretofore. Many overtures for a coalition had been made from one party to another—
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the reign of his present Majesty had been rather fertile in such events, but no one had ever presumed to make his Majesty a go-between on those occasions. But it was natural to anticipate bad advice on this point, from a consideration of the advice which had been given on two occasions before. The first advice which his Royal Highness had received, was to issue a proclamation against the Catholics of Ireland—against a people who had ever evinced the most duteous and strenuous affection towards his Royal Highness. The next unfortunate measure to which he had been counselled, was to select, as a reward for an individual of his household, an office which lay under a parliamentary interdict—an office, for the salary of which parliament had now refused a supply; and this, as though it were the wish of these sage and modest counsellors to insult the people whom they oppressed; for it must be obvious that there was, in the ample storehouse of official dignity and emolument at their command, means sufficient to remunerate any services without having recourse to that, the appointment to which had been so properly marked with the stigma of public disapprobation. If his Royal Highness continued to receive advice of so pernicious a nature, it was difficult to say where the evils would stop which it would bring upon himself and upon the country. There had been a former offer made to the lords Grey and Grenville by the right hon. gentleman, without the intervention of a go-between—this was rejected. These noble lords could not be brought to approve the conduct of ministers, and he could not conceive how any man or set of men could bring themselves to renew an offer which had been treated with so much contempt. This sort of importunity in private life would be considered an insult, and he did not see any reason why it should be tolerated in public life. The right hon. gentleman and his colleagues perhaps thought that lords Grenville and Grey were capable of a dereliction of principle, judging, if the supposition were not uncharitable, from the monitor in their own bosoms; but if they could have accepted the offer which was made them, there must have been not only a lack of principle, in those noble lords, but a lack of sense. But possibly the right hon. gentleman thought that the brilliant success by which the enter-prizes planned and attempted under his auspices had been attended, had

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so dazzled the noble lords, that they would without hesitation forego their principles, and give up their friends for the honour of engaging under his banners in parliamentary warfare. He confessed, however, that he could not discover any thing in the conduct of ministers, since the former offer, which could induce these noble lords to fall in love with them. The expedition to Walcheren could not—to Walcheren, where our army had been left to rot and perish, while the port of Flushing was full of transports. The evacuation of the island had been determined on, because ministers could not determine among themselves, who was to be appointed to the office from which the necessary directions were to issue. Every one of the 11,000 men who had perished there, had in his opinion been as much murdered as if he had been thrown into the sea. As to the conduct pursued with respect to America, he would now abstain from saying any thing, inasmuch as the season for discussing that topic was said not to be arrived; but still there was no reason to presume that the termination of the pending negociations would exhibit a depth of wisdom sufficient to captivate the noble lords, and make them anxious to enter into a political connexion with the right hon. gentleman. Ministers could not be said to be entitled to much praise for the capture of Java, or that of Ciudad Rodrigo; the former of these, in particular, had been reduced by measures planned by lord Minto, before any instructions for the expedition had been received from this country. As to Sicily, any thing useful that had been done in that country might be fairly attributed to a noble lord, who had recently quitted office (marquis Wellesley) and, as he had occasion to mention that noble lord, he would say, that as he had quitted office because he would not pledge himself to resist the Catholic claims, it followed, as a corollary, that the individual by whom he was replaced, must have so pledged himself; and this was a circumstance, of which he hoped for an explanation in the course of the debate. But while so much had been done for Sicily, he could not forbear expressing a hope, that the state of Malta, in which a severe system of oppression was carried on without controul, would receive the attention of parliament.—The next place, from their conduct towards the inhabitants of which, he presumed the gentlemen opposite could scarcely expect
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to derive credit in the minds of the noble lords, was Ireland. Here they had recently issued a proclamation, the most unconstitutional that had ever been issued since the House of Hanover had been placed upon the throne. The general use of a proclamation was to direct the execution of the law, but this went to extend the law; and, if the principle were admitted, a proclamation might as well be issued to suspend the law, a measure for the having recourse to which James the second lost his crown. The Catholic Committee had commenced their sitting on the 2nd of July, and on the 30th the proclamation was issued, and for this delay it would be difficult to assign any proper motive. The sitting continued for a month, during which time the instrument slept quietly under Dr. Duigenan's cushion. He could not let the name of this respectable personage pass without a remark on his conduct. When elevated to the dignity of a privy counsellor he had promised to be silent in the cabinet on all that regarded the Catholic cause; but when an indictment was to be preferred against the whole body, he could not by any possible exertion keep himself quiet. Till the issuing of the proclamation, the discontents of the Catholics had slumbered in their ashes; it was indeed a slumber easily broken. He trusted that the table would groan with Petitions from the English Catholics in support of the Roman Catholics. When a right hon. gentleman (Mr. W. Pole) on a former evening, introduced the name of major Bryan to the House, he ought at the same time to have stated who he was. He ought to have stated, that major Bryan was a gentleman of considerable influence, great merit, and distinguished loyalty, who, having entered the army, had risen to the rank of a captain. He wanted to purchase a majority in the service, but had been forbidden to do so. In consequence of this, he had found himself obliged to quit the regiment in which he had served, and that too at a time when he could not help seeing many foreign Catholics in higher situations than any to which he had aspired. If that officer had continued in the army, he might probably now have ranked very high in the profession. He did not wish at present to go into the discussion of the Catholic question the thought it would be better deferred till after the Catholic petition had been presented) he wished them to look

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at the present state of this country, at its commerce, manufactures, and revenues. The situation to which these were reduced, however, it should seem, was not sufficient for the ambition of the present ministry, and they were now about to array in arms against us another quarter of the globe, and this too at an æra when we were engaged in an unprofitable war, when we could entertain little hope of ultimately gaining that for which we had been fighting, and when there was no probability of the contest being brought to a conclusion, but through our impotence to continue it. If at such a crisis ministers refused to go into a committee on the State of the Nation, it could not but be said that they had brought the country into such a situation that they wished to be blind to it, that they were at once afraid of looking on the evil, and incapable of supplying a remedy.
Mr. Robinsonsaid, he did not think the topics which had been touched upon in support of the motion, were such as rendered it necessary for him to enter into any long discussion of their merits. It was not, therefore, his intention to follow the hon. baronet in his progress round the world, nor the hon. member who had seconded him, in that course which he had pursued, and which he had commenced his speech by stating it was his intention cautiously to avoid. He could not agree, however, that the mode which was proposed on this occasion was an expedient form of proceeding, nor did the views which he took on the subject lead him to an opinion, that any proceeding of this kind was at all advisable. He regarded the motion of the hon. baronet, indeed, as one which would place the House in a situation of all others the most embarrassing. He knew, indeed, that similar motions had been often before made, and he knew too, that they had seldom or never been acceded to. He believed that such motions had been generally rejected on grounds that appeared to his mind quite satisfactory. It would at least be a more intelligible proposition if, instead of this extended inquiry, involving amidst an infinite variety of questions, many not only of the most important and interesting but of the most delicate nature, some specific proposition upon a distinct subject had been submitted, and the House required to take it into consideration. Such an inquiry as the House was now called upon to enter
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into, embraced not only questions which had been the subject of past, but many that were to form the subject of future discussions. Among these was the state of Ireland, and the considerations connected with that country, which he did not see the possibility of taking out of the reach and view of a committee so appointed.—A motion had lately been made by an hon. member, he had no doubt with the best intentions, for the production of papers relative to the differences with America, and these papers had been refused. Was the House, then, to be persuaded to do that which it so lately thought it improper to do? It was not inconsistent, he admitted, in those hon. members who supported that motion, to wish for an enquiry that would necessarily involve the former, but it certainly was a just consideration to press upon the House which had pronounced it inexpedient.—There was another point of infinite magnitude, and of near relation to the last, which could not, any more than the other questions, be excluded from the attention of a committee sitting in review of the whole foreign and domestic situation, and interests of the country; namely, the Orders in Council. An hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Brougham) whom he did not then see in his place, of great talents and extensive information, had given notice of bringing this subject before the House, and was it therefore incumbent on the House to anticipate that discussion which would naturally take place in its proper lime? As to the general aspect of affairs, he really could not bring himself to view them in the same gloomy light as the hon. mover and seconder of the proposition before the House. He was far from having any wish to disguise the difficulties of the country, and far from any disposition to shut his eyes to its dangers. It was his desire to look them in the face, not indeed by a confession of weakness, but by an exertion of strength. It was, he believed he might assume, pretty generally admitted, that the war in which we were engaged was one into which we had been forced (hear, hear! from the Opposition benches). He imagined he understood the meaning of that cry. But he was justified, he conceived, in at least saying, that the country at large was satisfied of the necessity of the war at the period of its commencement, as well as at the subsequent period for the negociation for peace. The only

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thing that remained to be considered, was how best to carry on the war. Was it by adopting an offensive or defensive system of warfare, that the country enjoyed the surer prospect of succeeding in its objects? It appeared to him that the former was the more advisable policy; and it had been well characterised, in contrast to the opposite system, by one of the ablest writers on our military relations and resources, as a war of hope against a war of fear. If they looked back into the history of our wars, abundant evidence might be found of the superiority of the former policy over the latter. Let the House look to the wars in which this country was engaged during the reign of queen Anne, and ask themselves whether, if the chilling counsels of the hon. baronet had been acted upon—if it had been held impracticable at once to maintain an army on the Danube and another on the Ebro, the objects of that war would have been accomplished in the manner in which they had been? At least, if they had not been fully accomplished, their failure was to be attributed to an unfortunate change of policy. In the Seven Years war, as it was generally called, when the king of Prussia was threatened by a coalition of the most formidable nature, the British government stood boldly and actively forward in his support. We united our strength to his, and he was maintained against all the embarrassments and the perils of his situation. We were successful; and the king of Prussia was not ruined, because he did not despair. We acted on principles of the wisest policy, because we acted upon that feeling of perseverance, and that unconquerable energy of mind which find in danger itself the source of their growth and vigour. He recollected, too, that at a more recent period—in 1803, when new plans were in execution for extending a general system of home defence, it was a frequent reproach to the government, at that time, that they neglected a more important and efficient line of policy in preparing for plans of foreign warfare. It could, however, hardly be said, that we had not of late acted efficiently upon this principle. After triumphing over France, wherever we had contended with her, and sweeping her flag from three quarters of the globe, was it advisable to stop suddenly short in this career, and withhold the means of future victory? When the present war in Spain first broke
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out, there never perhaps existed in the country so strong: and universal a sentiment in favour of granting to that nation every assistance, and in every mode. He did net feel it necessary to go with the hon. baronet through the two first campaigns; but supposing there had been errors in the manner in which they had been conducted, were those errors to plead for a correction of, or to be adduced as arguments against the policy itself? Was the system to be entirely condemned on account of a few accidental defects? There certainly had prevailed a great variety of opinion in the House, as to the most expedient mode of carrying on the war in the peninsula, and among other schemes the hon. baronet himself had, he believed, his plan of a campaign. If he recollected rightly, the hon. baronet wished to begin his operations in Catalonia; but it was quite impossible that, after landing an army there, he should have advised its recall whenever the moment arrived of its being in danger. It might be urged undoubtedly, that we had met with some reverses—that we had been sometimes disappointed—but was it a solid objection to the continuance of a just and expedient war that we had not been invariably successful? Was this an argument for deserting a contest in which our best interests, no less than our truest glory, were at stake? He would wish to ask, however, had France herself found the struggle so light and her object so easily attained, as to inspire her with very sanguine hopes? He firmly believed that the French emperor was never engaged in any struggle of which he so heartily repented as of the war in Spain. There were features in it that rendered it perfectly distinct from the former campaigns and operations of the French armies. Let them compare the progress of Buonaparté's arms in every other country, with his achievements in the peninsula. In other countries twelve months had generally been found sufficient to annihilate the armed population. He had now been engaged four years in the vain attempt of subduing the Spanish people. What had been his predictions during that period, and how had they been accomplished? He had boasted, at one time, that within a few months not a single village should be in a state of insurrection,—he had vaunted that the British leopards should be driven into the sea, and the French eagles planted on the towers of Lisbon; but on the

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anniversary of the day of that boast—O, happy commemoration! on the 27th of September were his veteran legions overthrown at Busaco by the prowess of British troops, and the energies of British co-operation. Insurrection was still alive and active in Catalonia, Navarre, Arragon, and Biscay, but if our assistance should be withdrawn was not likely long to exist. Some gentlemen had demanded what was the effect produced by a British army? He would beg such gentlemen to look to Portugal. Without British assistance, would the Portuguese have been able to redeem their long sunk honours? Without such aid, would a Portuguese army have existed capable and worthy (as lord Wellington expressed it) of fighting by the side of British troops? Nor was the possession of 'Portugal so unavailing, or so little conducive to the defence of Spain, as had been stated by the hon. baronet. The presence of our army there compelled the French to collect and keep up a mighty army to meet us whenever or wherever we moved; and this, too, in a country whose desolate condition afforded such scanty supplies for the maintenance of large armies. The French had in general supported themselves by the produce of the conquered countries; but owing to the fatal ambition of the French emperor, of whom, according to the advice of the hon. baronet, he would say nothing harsh, but content himself with a reference to his actions, Spain was so completely devastated as to furnish no means of sustaining the armed forces which overran it. Nor, lastly, should it be forgotten, that Buonaparté had, some time back, by his own confession, expended 400,000 men, and 200,000,000 francs, towards the subjugation of Spain, and had not succeeded: yet the hon. baronet recommended the withdrawing of our army from Spain. [No, no, from Sir Thomas Turton.] He knew that the hon. baronet had not said so: yet, if his arguments had any meaning, such was their direct tendency. By such withdrawing, we should leave the Spaniards to their fate; for though they would, no doubt, prove turbulent and unruly subjects to their conquering ruler, yet he conceived they must be conquered; and would not such abandonment convert them from grateful friends into most vindictive enemies? Would it not ruin our character in the eyes of Europe? Would it not give colonr to the common assertion of Buonapartâ, that the
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English break their faith as soon as they are pressed by circumstances? Would it not induce all nations to combine against us in one common effort to precipitate our ruin? And if ruin should ensue, should we not fall without pity? Posterity would say, that England was once, indeed, a noble country, and held herself out as the protectress of the liberty of the world; yet, at last she disappointed the hopes of nations—she gave way to her fears: for the sake of ignominious safety, she abandoned her courage—her honour—her faith: she consented to resign all that makes existence valuable, 'et propter vitam vivendi perdere causas'. The hon. baronet might, perhaps, call these sentiments magnificent chimeras,—he might ask, what, if we should fail? To this he would answer,
"But screw our courage to the sticking place,
"And well not fail."
Mr. Lamb, without entering into a consideration of the ordinary forms of parliamentary proceeding, was of opinion, that a motion had never been submitted to the House, for which there existed more justifiable or stronger grounds. He entertained no wish to hold a desponding tone, or to think meanly of the public resources, but he could not perceive how acceding to the present motion, would be any confession of weakness, or betray any marks of pusillanimity. He did see, however, powerful arguments for going into the proposed committee. Among these were the extensive distresses of our commerce, the decay of our manufactures, a perilous foreign war, the nature of our relations with America, and unappeased discontent in Ireland. If any combination of circumstances could be imagined to create a necessity on the part of the House for entering into a grave consideration of the condition of the country, such a necessity did now exist. To every other motive was to be added, the consideration that the country was now governed by a divided, distracted, and inefficient administration. That ministry had recently lost the talents of marquis Wellesley, and he was sure that whatever difference of opinion might subsist upon some of his measures, no man would deny to him the reputation of an enlarged and statesman like capacity. He thought, therefore, that the ministry had lost much of their strength by the secession of the noble marquis, and was besides rather weakened by the accession of the noble lord (Castlereagh). [Loud cries of

1013
hear, hear!] He meant no personal disrespect, but from a review of the past conduct of the noble lord the country could not form any favourable augury of future triumphs and successes, and although he did not ascribe all the calamitous events of the times to his conduct, he did think they had been greatly aggravated 'by it. Instead of conceiving that the notice of an hon. and learned friend of his was any bar to this enquiry, he begged to know how a motion of that grave and important nature could be better submitted than in a committee of the whole House inquiring into the general situation of the country. He had lately heard reports, of the truth of which he knew nothing, as to the intentions of government in respect to a particular question. He had heard that the supporters of ministers were to be let loose and suffered to give an unbiassed vote on a question of vital importance, he meant that of the Catholic claims. He should be glad to find this the fact, and he was confident, that if every man in that House should express his real sentiments, it would be then his lot to vote in one of the largest majorities that ever appeared in parliament. But while alluding to these rumours he felt it to be his duty to admonish ministers, not for the sake of maintaining themselves in power, to attempt to put a paltry juggle on the country, nor for the sole object of preserving their places to throw a lasting odium upon the legislature. Rather let them persevere in their old obstinate and ruinous policy. As to what had fallen from the hon. gentleman on the principle of offensive and defensive warfare, he had no objection to make to it; and notwithstanding the many errors in the conduct of the war—great and grievous errors—and more particularly while the noble lord (Castlereagh) was at the head of the war department, he still thought there was great subject of pride and consolation. He did think, too, that they never could have stood exculpated in the eyes of posterity, if they had not freely and even desperately rendered all that assistance to the Spaniards, which their cause so well deserved. He did not understand it to be the hon. baronet's intention to propose in the committee the abandonment of our allies, and he would therefore suport his motion, not from feelings of despondency, but from a wish to see a vigorous policy pursued abroad, and a liberal one adopted at home. He at the same time always wished to see the dis-
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tinction, observed between what belonged to the bad conduct of ministers, and what grew out of the character of the times. Unless this distinction should be properly understood, no change of counsels could prevent disappointment.
Lord Desartopposed the motion, and contended, that his Majesty's ministers had consulted the honour and dignity of The country by the course they had adopt ed, and instanced, as a proof of their vigour, that not a French flag was flying in any colonial possession. He considered that going into a committee would have no effect, and would dull the spirit of valour among our. Spanish allies, while, by conducting the present contest with unabated perseverance, final success would be the consequence.
Mr. Herbert(of Kerry) could see no good purpose which would be answered by voting in favour of the present motion. It would neither improve our affairs at home nor abroad; it might impede the pending negociations with America, and interfere with the conduct of the war in the peninsula.
Mr. Matthew Montaguesaid, the inhabitants of this country were now carrying on a war against an enemy more difficult to resist than any who had hitherto appeared in modern times. Was this not a time, he would ask, when every honest man would wish to give strength and efficacy to the empire? Was this not a time for every well-wisher to his country to rally round the councils of his sovereign, and to support that august personage, who, till lately, had been so much the theme of the panegyrics of the hon. gentlemen opposite? Why did those gentlemen not come forward and give him their assistance when they were asked? [Hear from Opposition!] The hon. gentlemen might cry hear, hear, hear; but he would ask them, had not that august and exalted person opened his arms to them? and was not the manner in which he had been refused a dereliction of public duty? On what grounds did they refuse to join the present administration? It must be either on account of foreign politics, with respect, for instance, to the degree of vigour with which this country ought to assist Spain and Portugal, or it must be on account of our home policy, particularly with respect to the removal of the disabilities affecting the Catholics of Ireland. But if the right hon. gentleman now at the helm of affairs, were to throw up the

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government to them, were they, he would ask, capable of forming a more able, a less weak, or a less divided administration? Nothing could, in his opinion, be more strong, or less divided than the present government. Now the hon. gentlemen opposite would understand what he meant. But what was the opposition? The opposition was on the contrary divided among themselves, and far from strong. Who was to be their leader? Who was fitter for that purpose than the present minister? Let him who thought himself able and fit to supply his place, stand up. Surely no one who agreed with an hon. gentleman who spoke lately, would concur in thinking the hon. baronet who brought forward the present motion a fit person. The individual who was always saying, 'Listen to that admirable man on the other side of the water. Nothing could be more at variance than the sentiments of the gentlemen opposite. Why, he would take five lots of them at random, and there would be four of the couples that would disagree. The Catholic question would hardly produce Unanimity; it would, on the contrary, Carry dissention and disagreement even into the cottage of the poor. The hon. gentlemen opposite complained of the clamour against them on this subject. He did not wonder that they should wince when this sore place was touched. [Loud laugh]. The hon. gentlemen, by their cries, might make it difficult for him to express himself—they did not like his topics, because they were touched by them. However, it would be better, he knew, that he should speak shorter. Suppose the hon. member for Bedford at the head of an administration. Suppose he was to proceed to the continent, bent on peace, and, like lord Lauderdale, whose talents he greatly admired, should continue to negociate, while France was dispatching armies against Russia and Prussia, how would he look on his return? Would the affairs of the country be benefited by bringing into government a set of gentlemen who wished to make a bonfire of our paper currency? He would pass on to those gentlemen above the hon. gentleman, who declared that they had neither confidence in those below them, nor in those on this side of the House—those hon. gentlemen who went to public meetings, deluding the people under false colours, and some of them drawing out of other men's minds those resources by which they kept up their popularity.
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Those friends of radical reform, as they called it, wished to tear up all that was good and respectable in the country. Under their management, every thing that was now free would become fettered. One word with respect to the hon. member for Bedford. His diligence and his powers were, he believed, greater than those of almost every other man, but yet he differed from him in almost every thing. He observed, however, that that hon. member, and those who voted with him, seemed generally to select those times for their attacks upon the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when it was not allowable, by the practice of the House, for him to answer them. With all the talents which gentlemen opposite believed they possessed, a successful government had, however, for a long time, been carried oh without their assistance. Each of them might well exclaim, when speaking of the right hon. gentleman—"Great let me call him, for he conquered me." Single-handed the right hon. gentleman had beat all the talents.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division, but before that took place,
Mr. Whitbreadrose, and expressed his surprise that on such an occasion the question should be suffered to go to a division without any explanation of their policy or views by any one member of the government. Notwithstanding the many pointed and personal allusions which had been made to himself by the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, in a spirit, he Would admit, of such good humour as excited no unpleasant feeling, he should have taken no part at that period of the debate if he had not thought it of importance that some explanation should be given by ministers of the views they entertained, and of the policy they meant to act upon at so critical and perilous a period; If the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer should not think proper to give any explanation upon the subject, he thought it desirable and necessary that at least the House should obtain from the noble lord opposite (lord Castlereagh) some exposition of his views, now that he was about to become a member of the administration. With respect to the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, he must observe that he had expressed himself extremely satisfied with the laugh he had produced; and in adverting to that declaration, he was reminded of an expression of that hon. member, when in a former

1017
debate considerable mirth having been excited by something which fell from him, he remarked, "that those who win may laugh." If that were the case, really they must all be winners in the present instance, for a more general laugh than had been called forth by the speech of the hon. gentleman that night he had never witnessed in the House. To the topics which had been introduced by the hon. gentleman into the discussion, he should advert but shortly. It was not his intention to dwell at any length on the comparative estimate of abilities between the right hon. gentlemen opposite and those on his side of the House; on his assumption of certain expressions which had never been made use of—on his assumption of certain individuals being candidates for offices who had never offered themselves in that character—and on what appeared to him the indecent introduction of the name of the sovereign into a discussion in that House, and the irregular allusions to what had passed out of doors, and the various statements which had been made by the adherents of the right hon. gentleman opposite. The hon. gentleman had praised the talents of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The hon. gentleman might be perfectly persuaded, that no man was more convinced of those talents than he was,—and no man had been more ready than himself to acknowledge them. The hon. gentleman had said that the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had fought his opponents single handed. If he meant by this that he had fought them without the assistance of talents, he perfectly agreed with him—though even here the assertion must receive some qualification—for the hon. member opposite, who spoke first on the opposite side of the House (Mr. Robinson), had displayed talents and abilities in the course of his speech, which it was impossible not to admire, on whatever side those abilities might be displayed. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Montague) had professed himself the champion of the present administration, and had arraigned the conduct of those who had refused to join that administration. For a person like himself, to whom no offer had ever been made, it was impossible to accept any offer—though if any offer had been made, he certainly never would have accepted it—and if character, and principle, and union constituted the strength of an administration, no person who thought as he did, could ever
1018
conscientiously coalesce with the present. The hon. gentleman had said that those who refused those offices deserted their duty. Why? Because they would not join with an administration betwixt whom and themselves there existed no one fixed principle of union. With respect to the differences of opinion on his side of the House, there must be differences at times between men of principles and honour; and if those differences were such as to make it impossible for men of honour to unite in council together, to reproach those who refused that union, was to reproach them because they would not do the basest of all things; because they would not barter in their counsels; because they would not barter their principles for a place in administration. The hon. gentleman had emphatically designated him as member for Bedford. Of this be was prouder than of all the titles which it was in the power of the crown to bestow; it was not in the power of the crown to make him higher; for nothing could be more exalted than the title of an independent member of parliament. He had not been courted to accept of a place; but had he been courted, as lord Grenville and lord Grey were—"No, so help me God!" said Mr. Whitbread, "I would rather sink ten thousand fathom deep, than make a part of any administration, of whose principles I could not approve." He would not even have accepted such a situation, if he had been solicited by his sovereign himself. But when the present ministry came forward and said, their opponents had been guilty of a dereliction of duty, for refusing to accept places under an administration to whom they were diametrically opposed in every principle, and particularly in that vital principle of Catholic Emancipation, they were pronouncing the strongest condemnation of themselves which it was possible to utter—And here he could not help adverting to some rumours which had gone abroad, that this principle of Catholic Emancipation was no longer to be considered a cabinet measure, and that the strength of administration was no longer to be directed against the Catholic claims; so that a bargain was now to be struck with those who were favourable to the Catholics, by those who believed that to admit the Catholics to power, would be to betray their country; and a measure which was professed to be of the most vital importance was to be sacrificed to the mere possession

1019
of office. The Catholic question was now, it seemed, to be scrambled for, and to be treated exactly in the same manner as the Slave Trade question had been treated. Let the Catholics consider for a moment, what might be the probable effects of such a system, from the effects which had been witnessed in the question of the Slave Trade. Let them consider that the most powerful minister which this country ever possessed, exerted for 20 years all that transcendent eloquence and all those great powers which belonged to him, without the smallest effect; and let them reflect, that that trade never was abolished, and never would have been so, till it was made a measure of an administration, who had pledged themselves on the subject, and then it was abolished with one of the smallest minorities which had ever been seen in that House on a question of any importance. Before, however, the hon. gentleman called them to join the administration of his friends, it would be well for them to inquire if those friends were united among themselves; for, if a disagreement in the nation was bad, a disunion in the councils of the crown was worse. A late member of the administration, of whose policy he certainly could not approve, but whose talents and eloquence no man admired more than he did, and who was of great consideration in the peninsula, had told the House that he was friendly to the Catholic claims; and that concession to the Catholics ought to be speedily made. They were told, however, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he could not foresee a time when this could be done with safety. A noble lord (Castlereagh,) who had descended from the mountain (alluding to the seat on which lord Castlereagh had recently sat) to be a tower of strength to ministers, but who was probably only on trial yet (for his indentures were not signed, and he might be off his bargain) had frequently told them the impolicy of coming to a final determination upon an indefinite question. As the noble lord knew the Catholic question was again coming before the House, the country ought to be apprised how that noble lord meant to conduct himself; and yet the House were nearly going to divide without knowing from him how he was to act! He, who was the sole argument why they were now going into a committee on the State of the Nation, was to be allowed to leave the House that night without telling
1020
them upon what terms he accepted of office! Did he mean to vote for the Catholic claims? Did he not know that his right hon. friend had power to oppose him, and to oppose him successfully, if he was favourable to the Catholics? It was delusion then, in him, to tell the Catholics that he was free to take whatever line on this subject he might approve of, while he knew that the person on his right hand (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had entered into an undertaking sealed by power to frustrate all his attempts. That right hon. gentleman, of whom he could not suppose any thing so base and mean as to give up a question which he considered vital to the state, for the sake of an accession to his administration, could not now surely reduce himself to a single individual, and content himself with a vote in the cabinet. How a man with such opinions therefore could ever put pen to paper, and solicit such men as lord Grey or lord Grenville to join him—was what he was really astonished at. Such a junction if made could not have benefited the country. No man who valued his character could have acceded to it under the present circumstances. They had been told of the inconvenience of going into a State of the Nation, and that it was uncalled for at present. If there were no other reasons for going into a committee on the State of the Nation, than the situation to be filled by the noble lord, and the dangerous state of Ireland, they were surely sufficient. No doubt this would be inconvenient to ministers. So every ministry had uniformly said, for the last fifty years, in answer to similar motions; and so long as they had power they never consented to them. The state of the nation, however, was really most alarming; and the House had always, when difficulties were such as they were at present, thought it advisable to go into a committee.—"Why," said an hon. gent. in the early part of the debate, "why will you harass the minister?" It was his duty not to harass the minister, but to give such a vote as he considered for the good of his country; but harassed he must be, and greatly harassed at present. He must be harassed by the falling off of friends who had deserted him in his utmost need, and obliged him to take up with any person who could make up any thing like an administration. He must be harassed both in that House and out of that House; for they who imagined all his difficulties were in that House, knew but lit-

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tle of his real situation, which certainly was not to be envied. With respect to the noble lord (Castlereagh), who was at present, as it were, suspended between two situations, he should wish to know to which of those situations he was destined?—Much had been urged against the hon. baronet, for what he had said respecting the war in the peninsula; but, in his opinion, what the hon. baronet had advanced on this subject had been much misrepresented. He would not now go into the conduct of the war in the peninsula, and when he considered the manifold distresses of this country at the present moment, it was not necessary to go into it. But there were those out of that House who might think the affairs of Spain and Portugal would not be much improved by the management of him who had already displayed his skill in Holland. When formerly accused of incapacity, and when failure was brought home to him, the noble lord sheltered himself under the vote of the House. But did the House—did the noble lord himself really believe that the country would wish to see the war and colonial department filled by the man who conducted the Walcheren Expedition? Did he really lay that flattering unction to his soul? Did he think it would make no impression on the people of Spain and Portugal, to know that lord Wellesley, the brother of that great captain who had gained such immortal honour for himself, and glory to his country, by his brilliant achievements in the peninsula, had quitted the councils of the nation, and that he was to be replaced (for the noble lord was not to succeed to the Foreign Secretaryship he presumed) by that person under whose auspices was conducted the disgraceful expedition on which so much of the blood and treasure of the country had been fruitlessly sacrificed? Besides, the noble lord had been arraigned for bartering seats in parliament, and though he made a very gentlemanly defence, the people of England would never forget the accusation. The golden dreams in which the Catholics had so long indulged must now vanish; the bright prospect which hope had illumined was obscured by the approach of the noble lord (Castlereagh) who was surrounded only by the dark clouds of defeat and despair—his usual attendants. If, notwithstanding this great accession, there were a man in the House who thought that the present government was inefficient, it as his duty to vote for the ap-
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pointment of this committee. He would not at that hour trouble the House further, in the hope that the noble lord might be induced to rise and explain the mysterious circumstances which had attended the last ten days, and if that explanation were not satisfactory it would be an additional motive for assenting to the motion now submitted. At present an inconsistency had been displayed by the noble lord wholly incompatible with the safety of the empire, if he were allowed to hold any place in its councils.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that he should have lamented if he had not had an opportunity of addressing the House; but being confident that the hon. gentleman who had just sat down would not suffer a division to take place, without first making a speech, he had restrained himself till it was concluded. He was the more ready to do so, since there was no gentleman in the House that he was more desirous of following, from the manly and direct manner in which all his attacks were made, so that the real object of them could never be equivocal. The question had been put by the hon. gentleman on its true foundation, namely, to what set of men the government of Great Britain should be committed; to whom the safety of the empire should be entrusted; avoiding the general topics urged by the hon. baronet, which had little to do with the main subject of discussion. On that question he was perfectly ready to enter the lists, and he should barter his principles, and abandon the firm convictions of his judgment, if he were to desert the present system of administration for that which had uniformly met with the concurrence of the opposite side of the House. Those who, on perusing the important correspondence recently published, imagined that any middle course could be pursued, which might produce a combination of talent, were by the address just delivered, completely undeceived, and every hope of that kind that some had perhaps too fondly cherished, must now be for ever blasted. Those who before were inclined to impartiality, must now once for all decide, under whose banners they would enrol themselves. In his opinion, a coalition on the part of lords Grey and Grenville would not have been a greater inconsistency than when on, a former occasion many of the party opposite consented to act with them. The principles of those two noble lords would not have been injured in the opinion of

1023
any good or wise man, nor would the sacrifice of personal or of political honour have been required in order to form a united government of both parties, to rule over the affairs of state. Such flattering prospects had now vanished, and perhaps it might be considered of much importance that an understanding should be come to, that every man must make a dry option between the two systems so diametrically opposite. Upon the subject of the war in the peninsula, to which so much reference had been made, he put it to the hon. baronet and to his friends round him, whether in the mode they had hitherto treated the question, after the desponding language they had held, and the determinations they had expressed, either Great Britain or Spain herself would believe that her cause was safe in their hands? Would it not, as it were, kill the whole of the peninsula, and paralyze the efforts of a brave and deserving people? It would be impossible for minds lowered as those of the opponents of the system now adopted had been, to work themselves up to such a state of enthusiasm and energy, as would be requisite for the spirited prosecution of the war. It was easy to see that there was now no alternative. The noble lords Grey and Grenville had shut out hope, and putting an end to an intercourse with the administration which might have led to a coalition beneficial both to themselves and their country, had consequently debarred themselves equally from any cooperation with the present supporters of government. They had proscribed all public men out of the circle of their own immediate connections. (Cries of, No, no!) The noble lord admitted that he had overstated the fact, for they declared that they had no personal dislike, and that their objections were not to men but to measures. All gentlemen, therefore, who chose to desert their principles, might if they pleased, unite themselves with administration (Hear, hear, from Opposition!) He thanked the other side of the House for the cheer they gave him, for he understood it to insinuate, that he, in joining the present government, had deserted his principles. He was extremely anxious to detail to the House the grounds on which he had proceeded, and to state for what reasons he found no difficulty in acting with the advisers of the Regent. Upon the subject of the Roman Catholics, his sentiments had not changed in the slightest degree. When he before had
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the honour of forming a part of administration, he had differed with his right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the principle of the question. He was friendly while his right hon. friend was directly opposed to their claims; but he was against the agitation of the subject at that time, and he still remained of the same opinion. It might be right for the House to be informed of the principles which actuated hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House; and it was fortunate that they had to night been stated in a manner which rendered equivocation impossible. Does, or does not, (said the noble lord) lord Grenville stand to his professions in the letter he addressed to the earl of Fingal? (Repeated cries of hear! hear! from Opposition!) It may be so; but if any judgment can be formed from the sentiments expressed during the debates, I should say that he dismissed from his mind the whole system of guards and regulations laid down so distinctly in that letter. If the representations published are correct, I find his lordship in another place, within a short period exclaiming with vehemence, 'Where is the danger to the establishments? Why do you not give an immediate assent to the demands, before you are compelled to do so? Surely this is not very consistent conduct; for there is no allusion made to any of the important safeguards before so much dwelt upon; and when I read in the Letter of lords Grey and Grenville, that it is impossible for them to come into power, for ever so short a time, without recommending the immediate repeal of all the penal statutes against the Catholics, and no allusion to any protection for the Protestant church, I own I cannot help being surprised. The conclusions drawn by the hon. gentleman who spoke last, make it clear that the change of system must be general and fundamental, and the real question now to be decided is, whether an act shall be done which shall compel the Prince Regent, contrary to the determinations of his mind, to change his government, for the purpose of enabling that government to advise his Royal Highness to repeal all the laws of restriction upon the Catholics. I am friend to the Catholic cause, under certain regulations, still. (Hear! hear! and a laugh from Opposition). These marks of triumph I can easily understand they mean that those who shew them stand upon sure ground: but unless such a government can be formed as may induce

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the Regent to revoke the opinion he has given, the Bill may be brought in, but it can never become a law, and the new ministers must quit their seats in six weeks after they have occupied them—His lordship then proceeded to notice the curious reason that had been assigned for this change in opinion in the noble lords alluded to, which was the increased danger of the times. He was at a loss to discover it, whether he looked to our external or internal relations. Unless victory added to our insecurity, which might, perhaps, be contended by the other side, he could not ascertain the smallest ground for the assertion. In Ireland he thought that for political purposes the accounts of disturbances had been grossly exaggerated; but if the Catholic emancipation were acceded to, they would not be confined to Ireland, and we might rue in England the baneful consequences of rashly granting a measure contrary to the well grounded prejudices of the great mass of the community. "I wish (proceeded his lordship) to state the governing principle which has actuated my mind in uniting myself to the existing government. I find that two systems are in being, supported by directly opposite interests; and during the former administrations with whom I acted, whether of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, or of lord Sidmouth, a great variety of opinions prevailed on the principle of Catholic emancipation; but what all of us concurred in was this, that it was not the fit moment for forcing the question—we differed as to principle, we concurred as to time. My reason, then, for inclining to this side of the House rather than to the other is, that my sentiments more nearly accord with those of my friends round me, because the wish of gentlemen opposite is immediate and unregulated emancipation, to which it is impossible I should accede, unless, indeed, I should falter most essentially in those principles which it has been, and will continue to be, my pride to maintain unaltered. If, indeed, a government of united integrity and ability could have been formed, I should have been one of the last to discountenance it, or rather one of the first to offer it my weak support and assistance. Thus then, I think I have stated enough to satisfy the hon. gentlemen opposite. If not, I lament that their minds are not open to conviction, but this I can assure them, that I have satisfied myself. I trust, also that I have stated enough to
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convince the House of the purity of my motives in taking that alternative, which I conceived to be most conducive to the general welfare." With respect to the campaigns, if the hon. bart. thought it advisable to go into a committee on that subject, he ought to have done so two years earlier. Was it nothing, he would ask, to the military interests of this country, that in those campaigns Portugal had been wrested from the enemy? He would contend that the first had procured the safety of the whole south of Spain and the port of Cadiz. He would moreover assert, that to the campaign in Estremadura we owed that other great hold in Spain, Gallicia. But for these, Portugal had not been ours. The port of Cadiz had been in the hands of the enemy, and the fleet of Ferrol seized upon. The allusion to Walcheren had more of parliamentary trick in it than of justice, and the hon. gentleman himself had been candid enough to allow on a former occasion, that he had afforded every means of enquiry. When the hon. gentleman said he was incompetent to the execution of such an undertaking, he should have recollected his own admission, that he had no fault to find with the execution. He thought his present declaration rather inconsistent with his former. As to the principles on which he should act, they were those which Mr. Pitt had sanctioned with his immortal name, and with his decided views of the policy of the country both external and internal, he should think himself apolitical coward if he were afraid to place his humble services at the disposal of the Prince Regent. It was for his Royal Highness to command, and under that command he would fight the battles of the constitution with alacrity.
Mr. Tierneyexpressed his happiness at hearing what were called the dry principles of the noble lord who had just taken his seat; they had undergone no change, and needed none, for any that were mote convenient for every emergency it was difficult to devise. His principles on the Catholic question were the same, namely, a principle which allowed him upon one occasion to be for the Catholics, on another to be against them. All that was known was, that as the noble lord came out so he went in. On lord Wellesley's going out of office there had certainly been great difficulty in persuading any other man to come into office, and the right hon. gentleman opposite was doubtless happy in the noble lord's assistance, for the noble

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lord had been out to grass for about a couple of years, and fresh and vigorous for action, he had been now caught and brought back again to his old work.—Mr. Tierney had no doubt that the statement of the noble lord, that he had not entered into any stipulation with ministers, was true; but having it from authority the most unquestionable, he would assert most distinctly, that in the cabinet there was an understanding regarding the agitation of the Catholic question: he was convinced that at least some stipulations had been entered into between a portion of the servants of the Regent; and he took upon himself most peremptorily to affirm, that in the highest quarter there had been a misunderstanding, of a most extraordinary nature. The question was not who should form the government, but whether there should be any government at all, for at present none existed. Who was Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs? Who occupied the War and Colonial Department? and what arrangement had been made for the secession of Mr. Yorke from the situation of First Lord of the Admiralty? In the time of Mr. Pitt, the usual answer made to motions like the present was, that the state of the nation was not to be examined, because the country confided in the minister, that he would take care that all was prosperous. Was he to suppose that the country would be equally safe in the hands of that distinguished statesman opposite? It was true, he was bred and born under Mr. Pitt, but was it to be presumed, therefore, that he possessed either his credit or his talents? He did not think that the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer's friends acted wisely or kindly by him, in thrusting him forward, and making him so much their boast, especially when it was considered that he was but a statesman of five years old. He had yet not directed any of those great enter prizes undertaken by Mr. Pitt, and had shewn little more than a fixed determination to remain in power, making offers, first to one peer, and then to another, until, as a sort of dernier resort he had pitched upon the noble lord opposite, who after laving undergone much suffering, was at last sweetened and fresh for office. The main point to be established, or rather which had been established, was this, that the lords Grey and Grenville could not join the present servants without a base dereliction of principle; and whoever advised the
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Prince to write the Letter, making the proposal to them, took care that it should be so couched as to ensure a refusal. When the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer first quitted the profession to which he had been educated, he stated as his reason, that he was called upon to stand by the "Good Old King." Now he was disposed, no doubt, to stand by the "Good Young Regent:" and if any accident should happen to deprive the country of his Royal Highness, he would be equally anxious to stand by The "Good Young Princess Charlotte." If the right hon. gentleman was to be pointed to as the key stone on which the whole fabric of the state was to depend, it was a most decisive reason, indeed, for instantly going into the committee.—He could not have the slightest hesitation in saying, on the part of his noble friends, lords Grey and Grenville, that it was their conviction that if the discontents in Ireland were not immediately removed, there was every reason to apprehend the most dangerous consequences; and when it was asserted that lord Grenville had shifted his ground, it ought not to be forgotten that two years of increased confusion had since been witnessed in Ireland, and lord Grenville had it not in his power now to offer any redress. For himself, he did not believe that a tythe of the regulations some men required were necessary; but lord Grenville was of a different opinion, and upon the subject of the Veto he had expressed it. At the former period, the Catholics declared their readiness to meet the difficulties half way; and how was it to be ascertained that if sincere offers were now proposed to them, they would not exhibit the same disposition? At the present moment lord Grenville was as desirous as ever of procuring the necessary guards, if they could be obtained; but if not, he was willing to avert the total ruin of the country, by making a comparatively insignificant sacrifice. Was the noble lord who spoke last the only man who was to be allowed to modify his sentiments with the urgency of the occasion? Nothing, however, could be more unjust than to state that those two distinguished peers were actuated by the narrow principles which governed that noble lord. They would be happy to listen to any proposition that would tend to the public benefit, but they would only hear it from a person who agreed with them in, the main principle of Catholic Emancipation.—To the subject of the war

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carried on in Spain and Portugal, he would next advert, and to the assertion of lord Castlereagh, that it could be con-ducted and directed by none who did not feel a violent enthusiasm in the cause. His (Mr. T's) opinion was, that the measures were to be limited by the mean", [Hear, hear!]—although there could be but one feeling in the nation that to the utmost of our means the common enemy of the liberties of man was to be resisted. If, indeed, the government of the new Regency were united, if the recruiting service from the re-animation of the country were more successful, if our finances were better managed, and if above all, the whole population of the empire were conciliated, additional inducements to more vigorous efforts would be supplied. He desired to be distinctly understood that he never maintained that it was necessary to withdraw the British army from the peninsula; all he requested was, that the subject should be soberly and deliberately investigated, and that the House should not be led away by the enthusiastic spirit which the noble lord had so much admired. Of lord Wellington he entertained the highest opinion: a braver officer, one mote beloved by his troops or more zealously attached to the interests of his country, could not exist. But if lord Wellington's enthusiasm pervaded the ministry, he should be glad to learn why marquis Wellesley had deserted them in their utmost need? What was the cause of his quilting office? Was it the Catholic question? Was it the state of the finances? Was it a difference of opinion with regard to the assistance to be afforded to Spain? He claimed an answer from the Chancellor of the Exchequer on behalf of the country, since it would tend to throw much light upon subjects which a strong disposition had been shewn to keep in the shade. The lamentable state of the government at the present moment, when all was loose conjecture, rendered the proposition for a committee on the state of the nation still more expedient. It seemed to him a singular determination, reflecting on past events, that Mr. Perceval should be the sine quâ non of every new administration, particularly when he was almost the only decided enemy of the Catholics claims, the concession of which would be the salvation or the refusal the ruin of the nation.
Lord Castlereagh, in explanation, said, that he was not aware of any recent circumstances
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to alter his opinion on the Catholic question. He made no confession of any new opinions, but felt as he always did on that subject. But when his right hon. friend had been accused of inconsistency, he asked, was he guilty of more inconsistency than lords Grey and Grenville, when those noble lords took lords Sidmouth, Erskine, and Ellenborough, into their councils; or was it their intention to have left lord Sidmouth in the lurch as soon as the Catholic question should be started? Or did they act differently from his right hon. friend, when, in their memorandum laid before the King, they reserved to themselves the right of vote, in their individual capacity, for the Catholic question?
Earl Templefelt it necessary to take up the attention of the House but for a few moments. He begged leave, in the most positive manner, to state, that neither lords Grey or Grenville did, at any period of their political lives, much less in the formation of the government at which they were at the head, hold out any idea that the Catholic claims were not to be deemed a government question: on the contrary, previously to their dismissal from office, they expressly stated, that they ever would reserve to themselves, whenever the subject was introduced into parliament, the right of advising the King as a government, and not merely as individuals.—As to the proposal to join the present administration, he would say a few words. Of lord Grenville it was not permitted him to speak, but of lord Grey, he would pronounce, that if any man had been more conspicuous than another in the country for public honour and private faith, for public purity and private worth, that man was lord Grey. Such a character was he, that there was not any person, however high, who might not go with that noble lord with more honour into the obscurity of retirement, than follow the right hon. gentleman to the most dazzling heights of power. How vain was it, then, to speak of such a coalition! The offer of his Royal Highness he would always consider as dictated by responsible advisers, and it was an offer that never was intended to be accepted, but was, in fact, meant to be refused. It was a mockery, which merited and could receive only rejection. He only regretted, indeed, that his Royal Highness could ever have been brought to think so ill of those noble lords; as to imagine that in one short year they

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could have been capable of deserting their principles. If "character was the strength of a country," then surely the character of the public men of England was its bulwark; and its government could be respected abroad or loved at home, only inasmuch as that government was composed of such public men as placed principle above every other object. The noble lords had certainly "no predilections to indulge, no resentments to gratify;" but at the same time the right hon. gentleman and the noble lord should know, that for base lucre they had no principle to lose.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwould not trouble the House at length on the question before it, because whatever the hon. baronet might honestly think of the object of his motion, the question was not to decide on the subjects he had introduced in his speech, but simply this,—whether it was necessary or not to advise his Royal Highness to choose other counsellors? This was obviously the question; and, indeed, it was frankly and honourably confessed to be so, by an hon. gentleman (Mr. Whitbread): so that the hon. baronet was unconsciously the leader of the great phalanx on his side of the House. It was impossible to suppose, and even the ingenious speech of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney) could not amuse the House into an opinion, that it was seriously intended to discuss the negociations in 1806, or the two first Spanish campaigns, or other expeditions, which had already been often submitted to their consideration. There was a part of the hon. baronet's speech, however, connected with these points, which he did not wish altogether to pass over. The hon. baronet approved of the expedition to Copenhagen on such grounds, that he begged leave to decline praise given on such a foundation. The expedition, according to the hon. baronet, was justified by expediency, but but by the law of nations. He would contend that on every rational principle of the law of nations, that expedition was perfectly justifiable Thus much alone would he say on the different topics introduced by the hon. baronet, not as abandoning any of these topics when properly brought forward, nor indeed out of any disrespect to the hon. mover himself, but because the motion appeared to be, however ignorant the hon. baronet might be of it, for inquiry not into the state of the nation, but into the state of parties. The
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main question was, whether it was expedient to make a change in the Prince Regent's councils. The gentlemen on the other side thought it hard that some change should not take place, if even that change were only tried as an experiment. At least they begged for a change for two short months, to be able to know whether the Catholics might not be conciliated; whether the Catholics might not be in a temper to agree to these securities which they had refused. The right hon. gentletleman had said, that lord Grenville still was of the same opinion as to the necessity of securities. He confessed he did not entirely understand what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, for he did not yet know whether lord Grenville was prepared to grant emancipation, in case those securities should still be refused. This however, he knew, that the House should have some candid information, before it should be called on to judge of lord Grenville's views on this important, subject. His noble friend had been charged with a remarkable convenience of principle, for consenting to give the assistance of his talents to the administration,—great convenience of principle! And from whom did this charge proceed? from those persons in the party of the noble lords, who in his opinion had shewn as much convenience, as much application at least of principle to times and circumstances, as any statesmen that ever lived. If convenience of principle were a quality to be found in public men, convenience of principle in the sense of applying principle differently, at different times, to the same question, he thought that quality was not to be found in higher perfection in any other public men, than in lords Grenville and Grey. His noble friend held the same opinion now, that he ever did on the Catholic claims. He had since the Union been always the same,—not so with the noble lords. Upon the breaking up of Mr. Pitt's administration in 1805, were not the noble lords as much convinced as now of the vital necessity of carrying that question? They did carry the abolition of the Slave-trade, a measure for which they had his thanks as well as the applauses of their country and the good wishes of mankind; but though in the plenitude of power, did not they consent to let this, their vital question, sleep for one session, and did not they make every effort to put it off the next? Was it not kept back during the whole of Mr.

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Fox's life-time? Did they not, under his auspices whose principles they professed to admire as the bright example of their conduct, consent to shun this question? Did not they shew such a disposition to temporize, that unless it had been forced upon them, it might be concluded they never would have brought it on? And then, when it was forced upon them, what did they do? Instead of recommending the adoption of their vital question, they stole a little something into the Mutiny Bill, which something, indeed, in its very nature, pledged them to a further progress in the road upon which they had entered. It was the first step, but the consequences to which it led were such, that no wise and reflecting mind could fail to experience the greatest uneasiness from their contemplation. But the introduction of that little something was resisted, and strange to tell, these men of consistency,—these unchanging and unchangeable men, gave up even that little something. Yes, the men of principle were convenient enough to be ready to remain in office though that vital question was given up. With what face such men could stand up in the midst of a nation who knew all this, and talk of their consistency, and taunt others with the want of it, he was at a loss to imagine. He did not, in imitation of the manner in which he and his colleagues were treated by others, accuse those noble lords of being actuated by any base view to place or profit in their wishing to remain in office. No such thing: they had an object in view, which he really believed they thought of importance; but, like enlightened men, seeing they could not carry their favourite measure at one time, and hoping that they might at another, they temporized,—they made their principle convenient to a particular purpose,—and in his opinion they acted wisely. But when called upon for their assistance in the general affairs of the nation, any temporizing was, it seemed, impossible. Then the question was of such vital importance, that its consideration could not be delayed a single month. Mr. Fox was the pattern of the gentlemen opposite, yet through his life they waved the consideration of the Catholic question; but now they exclaimed that there could be no delay, although something very like insurrection or rebellion was at the bottom of the proceedings on that subject. If they were admitted to power on their own terms, was it possible
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to carry this question? Were the Catholics likely to give those securities, which, not bigots, but enlightened statesmen,—not himself, but lord Grenville required? The Catholics would not, according to the principles of their religion, if he knew any thing of it, give those securities. For his own part, those were no considerations with him. He did not think it expedient to grant the Catholics their claims, nor did he see in the future any contingency of political events that could make it expedient. As to the charge that he bad abandoned the question as a cabinet measure, he certainly thought that a difference on this head ought not to exclude any man of talents from lending his assistance in the councils of the Prince Regent; and for this reason he should not refuse it from any difference on a speculative point; for as far as practical purposes went, as far as it was considered inexpedient now to make concessions, he begged leave distinctly to state, that all his colleagues, whatever shades of sentiment there might be upon particular points, concurred in this opinion, that at this present time, whether from the state of the Catholics of Ireland—whether from the state of the Pope—(Hear, hear! from the Opposition Benches). The hon. gentlemen turned up their heads at this. But what did lord Grenville say in the very-letter then on the table: if any security be given, it must be an ecclesiastical one; and that ecclesiastical one must be through the Pope—for it was not consistent with that religion to give up any right of the. Pope without the consent of the Pope—therefore whatever shades of opinion there might be between himself and his colleagues upon other points, in this they were concurrent, that this was not the proper time for concession. Without aspiring to a knowledge of what might be the future opinion of the Regent, he was content to serve his Royal Highness, while he would accept his services. If it should occur that his royal master should not choose to abide by the advice which he now bad the honour to give on this subject, and should cease to regard it in the light that he did at present, then he, with all that gratitude which the favours conferred on him by that royal person, were calculated to inspire, would beg leave to depart from his councils; and would make his bow with as much satisfaction as ever he did on entering the royal palace. He should not think himself justified in en-

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deavouring to fix a permanent and indelible impression on the royal mind. It was his duty to give his royal master the best advice in his power, during the period of his service; but he should have no right to impute to his Royal Highness a dereliction of principle, should he, under a change of circumstances, alter his opinion. The Prince had thought proper to retain him in his service, with all those prejudices which at the commencement of the limited Regency had been studiously instilled into his Royal Highness's mina against the King's servants, and which prejudices were conveyed to them in an open, frank, and therefore consolatory manner; yet at the end of the limited Regency, such an experience had he of those servants,—so advantageous to his country did he perceive their measures to be,—so productive of glory, and honour, and benefit, that he had the magnanimity to avow the change which had taken place in his sentiments respecting them, and to signify his pleasure that they should continue to administer the affairs of the country. This was a delicate topic, on which he was reluctant to say any thing, and on which it was easy to say too much. With regard to the subjects with which the hon. baronet introduced his motion, he hoped to be excused from entering into them, not because they had not been well advanced or supported, but because they did not seem to require any reply. He would refer the hon. baronet to past debates as a reply to some of them, and to future ones for a reply to others; satisfied as he was that the real object of the motion (although, perhaps, the hon. baronet might not himself be aware of it,) was that which he had stated at the commencement of his speech.
Mr. Canninghad anticipated the turn which the discussion had taken; namely, to a consideration of the principles on which the new administration—if it could be so called—was formed. It was painful to an individual standing almost alone, unbacked by any party, to express his opinion on this subject; but it was a duty from which he had determined not to shrink. In the formation of a new administration, there were two material questions that pressed themselves upon the country, and on his mind: the one the military transactions abroad; the other the peace and tranquillity of the empire, and especially of Ireland. To the military transactions he gave his warmest
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praise; he should most strenuously support any government that could carry them on as they had been carried on for the last two years. But it was material to consider upon what grounds the tranquillity of the kingdom was to rest. On a former night he had opposed the motion concerning the Catholics of Ireland, because it involved a censure of ministers whom he did not deem censurable, and because he did not think the mode of bringing forward the motion well chosen. He did not approve of the mode, because he conceived that much more benefit would result from the question being brought before parliament by the executive government. Now, however, the matter was changed, and he deemed it a most serious question, when what bad been heard from two ministers that night was considered, namely, that the doors were now to be shut for ever against those claims. (Hear! hear!) He could collect no other meaning, but that as long as the government continued on its present basis, there was no chance of that question originating with it. Petitions, indeed, might be received from Ireland; but the hope he entertained that the Catholic question would be brought forward as a measure of government, was now lost for ever. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that a time might come when those claims might be allowed, but he did not see when it could come. What subtleties! What refinements! It was objected to an orator of old, that he dealt too much in refinement: "Aye," said he, "but I speak to Athenians." To whom did the right hon. gentleman speak? To what people were those distinctions addressed? To a people who had warm and generous hearts to feel, but not minds qualified to discriminate; to persons; unenlightened, rude, and uncultivated; who believed in certain mysteries which staggered our faith, but which certainly did not exceed the mysteries of those refinements. The declarartion, however, amounted to this; to a denunciation of perpetual and hopeless exclusion, as long as the right hon. gentleman remained in office. The noble lord had said, that his opinion had remained the same as his (Mr. Canning's) when they were in office together. But had nothing happened since? He thought he might state it constitutionally—and be stated it as a principle upon which he acted in taking office, and, upon which he acted in

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office—that the sovereign had a right to an individual opinion upon all subjects presented to him by his cabinet; and they who questioned that, must question many of the acts of king William, many of the acts of that period nearest the renovation of our constitution, and when we had a natural jealousy of all that could impair its freshness.—It was a question for that administration to decide upon, to which the noble lord had alluded, whether they would press their opinion at all risks, or whether they would leave the conscience of their sovereign unwrung upon that delicate point. The obstacle that existed was a great one; but it was no greater than what a loving father interposes to an expecting but not undutiful child. He would have consented to concede the claims then, but that individual whom the constitution had armed with power to annul the consent, had intimated his intention of exerting his power. He felt that circumstances were now changed—he felt that that obstacle (would to God it had not been so!) was removed; but even if he did not see that change, was it likely that they who were most interested would not found hopes upon it? They had looked forward to the removal of this obstacle, as a period when their grievances would be heard, and perhaps redressed; and what must be the effect of this disappointment upon their minds? What was always the effect of disappointed hopes upon the human mind? He was speaking to an audience capable of feeling those questions. Was it possible that the debate of this evening could go to Ireland, and not excite the strongest sensations? The completion of their long nourished desires did not now depend upon the life of an aged man—a life they would not shorten one day by their wishes to gain their views—but upon the continuation of the present minister in favour; but what might have been conceded to such a man, to his age, to his sufferings, to the memory of what he had done for his people, would not be conceded to the virtues and services of his right hon. friend. A question of this vital importance was now to be brought before the House in a new way; not as a government one, but as one on which every person would be at liberty to vote according to his real feelings; and there was a possibility—nay a probability, that ministers would be found voting against each other. It was preposterous thus to talk of discussing the ques-
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tion, without admitting any influence of the part of the crown. Reference was made to the Slave Trade, in justification of this plan; but he thought it the most fortunate part of that transaction that it was at last taken up as a government question, when the trade received its final blow. If that, therefore, were cited as an example, he wished it also to be cited as a warning. It lingered on year after year, till it was brought forward, though by a discordant administration, as a ministerial measure—and that was the only way in which the Catholic question ought to be treated. Here again he would guard against being construed to mean unqualified concession—he meant no such thing—he would have guards, he would have qualifications by which the establishment both of church and state might be effectually secured. Perhaps he should be again answered by being desired to produce his guards; but any one must know that to be only a trick in argument. Who would bring them forward, at that stage of the question, to undergo a hostile discussion? Suppose we were making a treaty of peace—must we disclose all our terms, all our conditions, prematurely, to be conveyed perhaps to the enemy? Certainly not. Aye, but then it would be said, why here is a fellow who wishes to treat without any conditions at all. Just so it was with regard to the Catholic guards. The question, however, was an important, a solemn one. We heard it—we felt it—it animated the whole mass of the Irish population: it came over almost on every breeze that blew upon our shores; and we could not evade it much longer. There was one, but one cure for all these difficulties, and that was the executive government looking at the question as one of great political magnitude—not as a question of abstract morals. He was compelled, with reluctance, to signify his disapprobation of the principles on which the government was acting on this most important subject, by voting for the motion. On the war of the peninsula, his opinions remained unchanged. He feared, however, that administration, in losing the noble marquis (Wellesley) had lost the stimulus of those successes which had graced the two last years; nevertheless he would still hope, that some of the noble lord's spirit might linger on his successor, and that such an impetus had already been given, that more would be achieved in future.—There were many other points on

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which he should conceive it to be his duty to support the existing administration. The propriety of the Orders in Council, for instance, he completely concurred in, although perhaps some enquiry was necessary into the alleged abuses in the licence trade. On the subject of the currency, he thought that the course adopted by the House last year (whether wisely or not was not the question) was conclusive. The general system of our foreign relations he highly approved, and he declared that should any other set of men be placed at the helm of government, who might think it expedient to abandon that system of warfare in the peninsula by which the country had been raised to its present glorious height of character, he would give them his determined opposition.
Sir S. Romillycould not suffer the House to separate, without noticing a most extraordinary expression which had fallen from his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In alluding to lords Grey and Grenville, he had stated, that they bad done nothing on the Catholic question during their administration, further than "inserting a little something in the Mutiny Bill." Now he (sir Samuel) recollected, that at the time of the introduction, this "little something" was represented by his right hon. friend as a matter of such tremendous importance, that he noticed it in his public address to his constituents, and added that the King would make a stand for the constitution, and that he would rally round his sovereign on that occasion. This was so important a fact, that he could not avoid noticing it now, for his right hon. friend, to serve his own purpose then, took occasion to make that public statement, which his followers reechoed, and which had nearly raised a war of religion in the country. (Hear, hear!)
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas desirous of setting right one of the most extraordinary misrepresentations which he had ever heard, the more extraordinary, as coming from a person so capable of understanding every thing that could pass. He had certainly made use of the precise words imputed to him; but had he stopped there? Had he not said that the "little something" was introduced upon such arguments and principles, that, to any persons possessing any thing like wisdom or the qualities of statesmen, must evidently appear to encourage hopes beyond that
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proposition, and that it was the first step which might lead to the most dangerous consequences? The noise in the House might have prevented his hon. and learned friend from hearing distinctly, for he was sure that his hon. and learned friend could not have intended knowingly to have misrepresented him.
After a short reply from Sir T. Turton the House divided:

Ayes

136

Noes

209

Majority against the Motion.

——73

List of the Minority.

Abercromby, hon. J.

Gower, lord

Adair, R.

Gower, lord G. L.

Althorpe, lord

Halsey, Jos.

Anson, gen.

Hamilton, lord A.

Aubrey, Sir J.

Hanbury, Wm.

Aubyn, Sir J. St.

Herbert, hon. W.

Binning, lord

Hibbert, G.

Baring, Sir T.

Hippesley, Sir J. C.

Baring, A.

Howard, hon. W.

Bennett, H. A.

Howard, H.

Bennet, hon. H.

Howarth, H.

Biddulph, R. M.

Horner, F.

Bernard, Scrope

Hutchinson, hn. C. H.

Blachford, B. P.

Huskisson, W.

Brougham, H.

Hussey, T.

Brown, A.

Jackson, J.

Browne, rt. hon. D.

Jolliffe, H.

Burdett, Sir F.

Kemp, T.

Busk, W.

Knight, R.

Byng, G.

Knox, hon. J.

Calcraft, J.

Lamb, hon. W.

Cavendish, H.

Latouche, R.

Canning, rt. hon. G.

Lemon, Sir W.

Canning, G.

Lemon, J.

Coke, T. W.

Lemon, C.

Colborne, R.

Leech, J.

Combe, H. C.

Lloyd, J. M.

Cuthbert, J. R.

Lyttleton, hon. H.

Dent, J.

Macdonald, J.

Dickinson, W.

Madocks, W.

Dillon, hon. H.

Mathew, hon. M.

Duncannon, lord

Martin, H.

Dundas, hon. C.

Mills, W.

Eden, hon. G.

Milton, lord

Ellis, C. R.

Moore, P.

Ferguson, gen.

Morpeth, lord

Fitzroy, lord W.

Morris, E.

Fitzpatrick, hon. R.

Mosley, Sir O.

Fitzgerald, lord H.

Myers, J.

Frankland, W.

Montgomery, Sir H.

Fremantle, W. H.

Neville, hon. H.

Foley, T.

North, D.

Folkestone, lord

Orde, W.

Grattan, rt. hon. H.

Osborne, lord F.

Giles, D.

Ossulstone, lord

Greenhill, R.

Parnell, H.

Greenough, G. B.

Pelham, hon. G.

Grenfell, P.

Piggott, Sir A.

Grenville, lord G.

Prendergast, M.

Guise, Sir W.

Prittie, hon. F.

1041

Pollington, lord

Taylor, M. A.

Ponsonby, hon. G.

Tierney, rt. hon. G.

Ponsonby, hon. F.

Tighe, W.

Power, R.

Temple, earl

Pym, F.

Tracey, Hanbury

Ridley, Sir M. W.

Templetown, lord

Romilly, Sir S.

Turton, Sir T.

Simpson, hon. J. B.

Walpole, hon. G.

Sharp, R.

Ward, hon. J.

Smith, Wm.

Western, C.

Smith, J.

Whitbread, S.

Smith, J.

Winnington, Sir T.

Smith, S.

Wilkins, W.

Smith, Abel

Williams, O.

Spiers, A.

Wynne, Sir W. W.

Stanley, lord

Wynne, C. W.

Scudamore, R. P.

Wrottesley, H.

Tarleton, gen.

Vernon, G. G. V.

Tavistock, lord

FRAME WORK BILL.
The order of the

965
day for the second reading of this Bill being read,
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that as the present Bill contained some enactments of a novel nature, it was necessary he should state to the House some of those grounds upon which he thought that it ought to pass into a law. The transactions which had taken place, and were still going on in the county of Nottingham, were pretty well known to most of their lordships, and he rose to state that no exertions were wanting on the part of government to remedy the evil and ensure the return of tranquillity and order under the existing laws'; and this he believed was the conviction of those most conversant on the subject, and who had opportunities of local information. It had at length, however, become necessary to recur to, and express the determination of parliament on the subject. The Bill in question was divided into two parts; which most undoubtedly in some respects proceeded on, different grounds. The second part was introduced with a view to the detection of the offenders, which was the principal object. It went to compel individuals in whose houses frames should be broken, to give information thereof to the magistrates, and the provisions of this part of the Bill were calculated as much as possible to insure detection; and it was deemed necessary to render the offences provided against by the Bill capital. He was aware there existed more difference of opinion on this than on any other point: he knew it would be urged, that such an enactment would only tend to render detection more difficult, and the chance of conviction more uncertain. To this, however, he thought it could be rationally objected, that the terror of the law would in many cases operate, where the apprehension of lesser punishments would be found ineffectual. He, for his own part, could see no well-founded objection to try the effects of the measure which was proposed. The chief difficulty in the present case, he repeated, was the difficulty of detection under the existing applicable law; and he believed at the same time, that the operating dread of the severer punishment would, in the present case, be attended with beneficial effects. In addition to this, he observed, that the act was proposed but as a temporary one, and therefore the legislature would have a future opportunity of revising it, on a consideration of its effects.
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If it should prove ineffectual, they would have an opportunity of considering how far it would be wise or expedient to continue it. But considering ail the circumstances of the case, he was firmly of opinion, that the measures proposed in the Bill were the most proper for the adoption of the legislature; and that the other House of Parliament were well grounded in sending it up for the concurrence of their lordships. He would therefore move, that this Bill be now read a second time.
Lord Byronrose, and (for the first time) addressed their lordships as follows:
My Lords; the subject now submitted to your lordships for the first time, though new to the House, is by no means new to the country. I believe it had occupied the serious thoughts of all descriptions of persons, long before its introduction to the notice of that legislature, whose interference alone could be of real service. As a person in some degree connected with the suffering county, though a stranger not only to this House in general, but to almost every individual whose attention I presume to solicit, I must claim some portion of your lordships' indulgence, whilst I offer a few observations on a question in which I confess myself deeply interested.
To enter into any detail of the Riots would be superfluous: the House is already aware that every outrage short of actual bloodshed, has been perpetrated, and that the proprietors of the Frames obnoxious to the rioters, and all persons supposed to be connected with them, have been liable to insult and violence. During the short time I recently passed in Nottinghamshire, not twelve hours elapsed without some fresh act of violence; and on the day I left the county I was informed that forty frames had been broken the preceding evening, as usual, without resistance and without detection.
Such was then the state of that county, and such I have reason to believe it to be at this moment. But whilst these outrages must be admitted to exist to an alarming extent, it cannot be denied that they have arisen from circumstances of the most unparalleled distress: The perseverance of these miserable men in their proceedings, tends to prove that nothing but absolute want could have driven a large, and once honest and industrious, body of the people, into the commission of excesses so hazardous to themselves, their families and the community. At the time, to which I allude, the town and county were bur

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thened with large detachments of the military; the police was in motion, the magistrates assembled, yet all the movements civil and military had led to—nothing. Not a single instance had occurred of the apprehension of any real delinquent actually taken in the fact, against whom there existed legal evidence sufficient for conviction. But the police, however useless, were by no means idle: several notorious delinquents had been detected; men, liable to conviction, on the clearest evidence, of the capital crime of Poverty; men, who had been nefariously guilty of lawfully begetting several children, whom, thanks to the times! they were unable to maintain. Considerable injury has been done to the proprietors of the improved Frames. These machines were to them an advantage, inasmuch as they superseded the necessity of employing a number of workmen, who were left in consequence to starve. By the adoption of one species of Frame in particular, one man performed the work of many, and the superfluous labourers were thrown out of employment. Yet it is to be observed, that the work thus executed was inferior in quality; not marketable at home, and merely hurried over with a view to exportation. It was called in the cant of the trade, by the name of 'Spider work.' The rejected workmen in the blindness of their ignorance, instead of rejoicing at these improvements in arts so beneficial to mankind, conceived themselves to be sacrificed to improvements in mechanism. In the foolishness of their hearts they imagined, that the maintenance and well doing of the industrious poor, were objects of greater consequence than the enrichment of a few individuals by any improvement, in the implements of trade, which threw the workmen out of employment, and rendered the labourer unworthy of his hire. And it must be confessed that although the adoption of the enlarged machinery in that state of our commerce which the country once boasted, might have been beneficial to the master without being detrimental to the servant; yet, in the present situation of our manufactures, rotting in warehouses, without a prospect of exportation, with the demand for work and workmen equally diminished; Frames of this description, tend materially to aggravate the distress and discontent of the disappointed sufferers. But the real cause of these distresses and consequent disturbances lies deeper. When we are told
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that these men are leagued together not only for the destruction of their own comfort, but of their very means of subsistence, can we forget that it is the bitter policy, the destructive warfare of the last 18 years, which has destroyed their comfort, your comfort, all mens' comfort? That policy, which, originating with "great statesmen now no more," has survived the dead to become a curse on the living, unto the third and fourth generation! These men never destroyed their looms till they were become useless, worse than useless; till they were become actual impediments to their exertions in obtaining their daily bread. Can you, then, wonder that in times like these, when bankruptcy, convicted fraud, and imputed felony are found in a station not far beneath that of your lordships, the lowest, though once most useful portion of the people should forget their duty in their distresses, and become only less guilty than one of their representatives? But while the exalted offender can find means to baffle the law, new capital punishments must be devised, new snares of death must be spread for the wretched mechanic who is famished into guilt. These men were willing to dig, but the spade was in other hands: they were not ashamed to beg, but there was none to relieve them: their own means of subsistence were cut off, all other employments pre-occupied, and their excesses, however to be deplored and condemned, can hardly be subject of surprize.
It has been stated that the persons in the temporary possession of Frames connive at their destruction; if this be proved upon enquiry, it were necessary that such material accessories to the crime, should be principals in the punishment. But I did hope, that any measure proposed by his Majesty's government, for your lordships' decision, would have bad conciliation for its basis; or, if that were hopeless, that some previous enquiry, some deliberation would have been deemed requisite; not that we should have been called at once without examination, and without cause, to pass sentences by wholesale, and sign death-warrants blindfold. But, admitting that these men had no cause of complaint; that the grievances of them and their employers were alike groundless; that they deserved the worst; what inefficiency, what imbecility has been evinced in the method chosen to reduce them! Why were the military called out to be made a mockery of, if they were to be called out at all?

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As far as the difference of seasons would permit, they have merely parodied the summer campaign of major Sturgeon; and, indeed, the whole proceedings, civil and military, seemed on the model of those of the Mayor and Corporation of Garratt.—Such marchings and counter marchings! from Nottingham to Bullwell, from Bullwell to Banford, from Banford to Mansfield! and when at length the detachments arrived at their destination, in all "the pride, pomp, and circumstance of glorious war," they came just in time to witness the mischief which had been done, and ascertain the escape of the perpetrators, to collect the "spolia opima" in the fragments of broken frames, and return to their quarters amidst the derision of old women, and the hootings of children. Now, though in a free country, it were to be wished, that our military should never be too formidable, at least to ourselves, I cannot see the policy of placing them in situations where they can only be made ridiculous. As the sword is the worst argument that can be used, so should it be the last. In this instance it has been the first; but providentially as yet only in the scabbard. The present measure will, indeed, pluck it from the sheath; yet had proper meetings been held in the earlier stages of these riots, had the grievances of these men and their masters (for they also had their grievances) been fairly weighed and justly examined, I do think that means might have been devised to restore these workmen to their avocations, and tranquillity to the county. At present the county suffers from the double infliction of an idle military and a starving population. In what state of apathy have we been plunged so long, that now for the first time the House has been officially apprized of these disturbances? All this has been transacting within 130 miles of London, and yet we, "good easy men, have deemed full sure our greatness was a ripening," and have sat down to enjoy our foreign triumphs in the midst of domestic calamity. But all the cities you have taken, all the armies which have retreated before your leaders are but paltry subjects of self congratulation, if your land divides against itself, and your dragoons and your executioners must be let loose against your fellow citizens.—You call these men a mob, desperate, dangerous, and ignorant; and seem to think that the only way to quiet the "Bellua multorum capitum" is to lop off a few of
970
its superfluous heads,—But even a mob may be better reduced to reason by a mixture of conciliation and firmness, than by additional irritation and redoubled penalties. Are we aware of our obligations to a mob? It is the mob that labour in your fields and serve in your houses, that man your navy, and recruit your army, that have enabled you to defy all the world, and can also defy you when neglect and calamity have driven them to despair. You may call the people a mob, but do not forget, that a mob too often speaks the sentiments of the people. And here I must remark with what alacrity you are accustomed to fly to the succour of your distrest allies, leaving the distressed of your own country to the care of Providence or—the Parish. When the Portuguese suffered under the retreat of the French every arm was stretched out, every band was opened, from the rich man's largess, to the widow's mite, all was bestowed to enable them to rebuild their villages and replenish their granaries. And at this moment, when thousands of misguided but most unfortunate fellow-countrymen are struggling with the extremes of hardships and hunger, as your charity began abroad it should end at home. A much less sum, a tithe of the bounty bestowed on Portugal, even if those men (which I cannot admit without enquiry) could not have been restored to their employments, would have rendered unnecessary the tender mercies of the bayonet and the gibbet. But doubtless our friends have too many foreign claims to admit a prospect of domestic relief; though never did such objects demand it. I have traversed the seat of war in the peninsula, I have been in some of the most oppressed provinces of Turkey, but never under the most despotic of infidel governments did I behold such squalid wretchedness as I have seen since my return in the very heart of a Christian country. And what are your remedies? After months of inaction, and months of action worse than inactivity, at length comes forth the grand specific, the never failing nostrum of all state physicians, from the days of Draco to the present time. After feeling the pulse and shaking the head over the patient, prescribing the usual course of warm water and bleeding, the warm water of your maukish police, and the lancets of your military, these convulsions must terminate in death, the sure consummation of the prescriptions of all political Sangrados. Setting

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aside the palpable injustice and the certain inefficiency of the Bill, are there not capital punishments sufficient in your statutes? Is there not blood enough upon your penal code that more must be poured forth to ascend to Heaven and testify against you? How will you carry the Bill into effect? Can you commit a whole county to their own prisons? Will you erect a gibbet in every field and hang up men like scarecrows? or will you proceed (as you must to bring this measure into effect) by decimation? place the county under martial law? depopulate and lay waste all around you? and restore Sherwood forest as an acceptable gift to the crown, in its former condition of a royal chase and an asylum for outlaws? Are these the remedies for a starving and desperate populace? Will the famished wretch who has braved your bayonets, be appalled by your gibbets? When death is a relief, and the only relief it appears that you will afford him; will he be dragooned into tranquillity? Will that which could not be effected by your grenadiers, be accomplished by your executioners? If you proceed by the forms of law where is your evidence? Those who have refused to impeach their accomplices, when transportation only was the punishment, will hardly be tempted to witness against them when death is the penalty. With all due deference to the noble lords opposite, I think a little investigation, some previous enquiry would induce even them to change their purpose. That most favourite state measure, so marvellously efficacious in many and recent instances, temporizing, would not be without its advantages in this. When a proposal is made to emancipate or relieve, you hesitate, you deliberate for years, you temporise and tamper with the minds of men; but a death-bill must be passed offhand, without a thought of the consequences. Sure I am from what I have heard, and from what I have seen, that to pass the Bill under all the existing circumstances, without enquiry, without deliberation, would only be to add injustice to irritation, and barbarity to neglect. The framers of such a Bill must be content to inherit the honours of that Athenian lawgiver whose edicts were said to be written not in ink but in blood. But suppose it past; suppose one of these men, as I have seen them,—meagre with famine, sullen with despair, careless of a life which your lordships are perhaps about to value
972
at something less than the price of a stocking-frame—suppose this man surrounded by the children for whom he is unable to procure bread at the hazard of his existence, about to be torn for ever from a family which he lately supported in peaceful industry, and which it is not his fault that he can no longer so support, suppose this man, and there are ten thousand such from whom you may select your Victims, dragged into court, to be tried for this new offence, by this new law; still, there are two things wanting to convict and condemn him; and these are, in my opinion,—Twelve Butchers for a Jury, and a Jefferies for a Judged!
Lord Hollandcomplimented his noble friend who spoke last oh the ability which he had displayed in this his first speech in that House, and expressed his astonishment that ministers had not thought proper to reply to it. The rejection of a Bill brought forward under such circumstances, he admitted to be an evil; but then, the present one was so extremely objectionable, that he felt it his duty to oppose it. He was not much surprised at this measure, for he never was surprised at seeing any thing foolish coming from the present ministers; but the fact was, that the apprehension of such a law had already rendered the chances of detection less probable. This he had from the best authority. But he supposed, when he adverted to the general principle that the severity of the punishment increased the difficulty of detection and conviction, he should be told, that this was speculation and theory. They were for proceeding from day to day, without rudder or compass, as the winds and Waves carried them. But what was the real state of this case? Here was a fact, that the apprehension of such a law had rendered detection more difficult; and yet, in the face of this fact, they proposed to pass the law, as if there had been no other mode of getting at the opinion of parliament. Indeed, such a law was but a very bad way of sending out a strong expression of the opinion of the legislature against this Offence. Our penal code was too thick set with these penalties of death, to render that a very explicit declaration of the sense of parliament as to the enormity of the crime. The people would recollect, that the legislature had declared, that stealing to the value of 40 s. from a canal, deserved death; and with this in their minds, they

973
could not easily be persuaded that parliament was deeply impressed with the magnitude of the offence merely because it punished it with death. He was far, however, from thinking lightly of this crime; for few crimes, could he more ruinous to the power, wealth, and prosperity of any country; but it did not follow, that the conclusion drawn by the noble Secretary of State was correct, The noble Secretary admitted that the general principle, that the severity of the punishment increased the difficulty of detection might in some cases be applicable, but here he thought the terror of death necessary to prevent the commission of the crime. Yet of all cases this was one in which this terror could have the least effect; since the offence was carried on by a combination of persons bound together by a mistaken principle of honour. But leaving the general principle, he came to the Bill itself; and observed, that the only difficulty was in the detection. If the offenders could be detected, the law was already severe enough. If the ground on, which the Bill rested was stripped of the legal jargon in which acts of parliament were necessarily involved, and reduced to a plain logical proposition, the absurdity would be too glaring to be for a moment entertained. The amount of it was this: "Whereas it has been found difficult to detect these offenders, we will render that detection still more difficult." This law might irritate and exasperate; but it would do nothing more. So much as to the first part of the Bill; but even the second part, intended to facilitate detection, was not founded on wise principles. He should have thought a civil process much more desirable, by which the person having a frame belonging to another broken in his house, should be liable for damages to the owner, unless he proved that he had used every reasonable exertion to protect it. He agreed with his noble friend in disapproving the manner in which the military had been employed, and urged the propriety of an inquiry to open the eyes of the deluded multitude. Something might be done to break the combination, by offering rewards to persons making discoveries without dragging them to a court of justice to give evidence. If the punishment of death was improper for such an offence it was no excuse to say that the law was only temporary. Hanging our fellow-subjects was not a proper way of making
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experiments. It might appear, on enquiry, that the cause of this evil was the fluctuation of the market—the tampering with our trade, which was regulated only by the caprice of ministers. A change of policy would then be found to be the proper remedy. The present course was fraught with danger, and he must discharge his duty by opposing the second reading of the Bill without a previous enquiry. He concluded by moving, that the second reading be postponed till that day three weeks.
The Lord Chancellorobserved, that the two parts of the Bill ought to be taken together, and the object of both united was the prevention of the offence. The outrages at Nottingham originated in a mistaken notion of those concerned in them, that their interests were injured by the introduction of certain improvements in machinery, when the fact was, that all these improvements contributed to their advantage, and that by the conduct they were now persisting in, they were deeply injuring their own interests, and destroying their own comforts. From, however, the plan and system adopted by them, the difficulty of detection had become very great, and the object of the second part of the Bill was to increase the means of detection, whilst the first part of it, by enacting the penalty of death, there was every reason to believe would operate, by the terror of that punishment, to prevent the offence. The prevention of offences was the legitimate object of enacting the punishment of death; and there was every reason to suppose that this object would be attained in the present instance, by combining the terror of this punishment with the increased facility of detection.
The Earl of Lauderdaleagreed with the noble and learned lord, that the outrages at Nottingham originated in a mistaken notion of those concerned in them of their own interests, for nothing could be more certain than that every improvement of machinery contributed to improve the condition of persons employed in the manufactures in which such improvements were made, there being in a very short time after such improvements were introduced, a greater demand for labour than there was before. Much, however, of the present distressed state of the manufacturers arose from the system of policy pursued by ministers; and he was satisfied, that before being called upon to pass a

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measure like the present, an enquiry ought to be instituted, and that that enquiry ought to embrace the effect of the Orders in Council, the state of the commerce of the country, and also of its circulation. The noble earl, after ridiculing the vigour of the ministers in sending down two justices and two Bow street runners to Nottingham, adverted to the fact, that it had been found necessary, by the advice of the judges, and upon the reports of the revenue boards, to do away the capital punishments in cases' of smuggling, because it was impossible to find juries to convict: and yet in a case depending on the same principle, they enacted the punishment of death, when it was notorious that the great evil was the difficulty of detection. The measure evinced an utter ignorance of the principles of law, and of the real state of the country.
The Earl of Harrowbycontended, that enquiry could answer no useful purpose. If enquiry were to embrace the Orders in Council, the state of the commerce and circulation of the country, the investigation must be indefinite, the outrages at Nottingham must in the mean time go on, and all attempt to suppress them must be postponed ad Grœcas Calendas. An inquiry more limited with respect to the outrages themselves, could have no good effect; the offence was, as was admitted by every one, most injurious to the interests of the community, and every means ought to be adopted to prevent its repetition. The object of the Bill was to increase the means of detection, whilst it inflicted the punishment of death; and surely it was to be expected that the terror of the punishment of death, when the means of detection were increased, would operate to prevent the commission of the offence.
Earl Grosvenorwas hostile to extending the penal code by the infliction of the punishment of death for this offence, and contended that information ought first to be laid before the House, to prove that all other means had been ineffectual. Much of these outrages were, he thought, to be attributed to the system of policy pursued by ministers, and he lamented that the Prince Regent should have been advised not to make a change in his councils, convinced as the noble earl was, that the result of a change would have been an improved system of finance, an economical expenditure, and a general amelioration of the situation of the country.
Lord Grenvillefound it impossible to all
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low this question to pass, without expressing in the strongest terms which his powers of language could supply, his indignant detestation of the principles on which the Bill was founded, as well as of the arguments by which it was supported. There was now no time for inquiry, they said; but he hoped their lordships were familiar with the wise maxim of a great authority 'de vitâ hominis nulla est cunctatio longa.' When the question was about the life of man, he should have expected that ministers, and especially the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, would have willingly acceded to the delay, if there was the smallest doubt in the mind of any noble lord, whether it was necessary to add to the horrible and sanguinary catalogue of our capital punishments. It had been said, indeed, that no one doubted the fitness of the punishment to the crime. If that was true, he knew not to what purpose his noble friends about him had been speaking. These laws were, unfortunately, not the result of enlarged views, of general principles, but they sprung up one by one upon some momentary necessity; and a noble secretary had astonished him by stating, that there was no general principle to rest upon. But unless all that he had ever thought, all that he had ever heard, all that he had ever read upon the subject, was utterly erroneous, there was no case in which general principles were more necessary to be attended to, and more capable of application than in enacting penal Jaws, especially when capital punishments came under consideration. To these he trusted their lordships would attend, and not suffer themselves to be drawn aside by these temporary outrages. But if a delay of three weeks could not be allowed in a case where 10,000 of their fellow subjects might be rendered liable to the pains of death, why had there been a delay of two months? The enquiry might by this time have been complete. For six months during which these proceedings had been carried on, no one effectual step had been taken; and yet ministers had the confidence to come now and say, 'Do not ask for delay—trust to us—shut your own eyes and ears, and sign the bloody warrant here presented to you? No, he would not trust ministers before he signed that warrant: he must be satisfied that the offence was commensurate with the pains to be applied. He had no hesitation in saying, that such a punishment ought never to be applied to such an of-

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fence; and if their lordships had read one page of that excellent writer Judge Black-atone, they must be aware that he had distinctly said, that the mere frequency of an offence and difficulty of detection was not a ground for a capital punishment. His noble friend had stated, that there were laws in our statute book enacting death in similar cases. He knew it, and deeply regretted it, and wished they could be at once erased from the statute book, if it were for nothing else than to prevent their being resorted to as examples, when the indolence, the ignorance, or the weakness of government led them to enact such laws as this. Here, again, the enlightened Blackstone lent his great authority, for he said that these laws originated in the ignorance of the legislature and the weakness of government. He should have thought inquiry necessary as to this point It had been assumed that the existing law was ineffectual; but before ministers assumed that fact, they ought to prove that every thing had been done to carry it into execution. On that head there was no information whatever, except the boasted exploit of having sent down two Westminster justices and two Bow-street runners; who, though very conversant in the business of detecting thieves and footpads, were not therefore the roost proper to deal with the Nottingham manufacturers. That was their vigour! But something else had been done worse even than that foolish expedient. There never was a maxim of greater wisdom than that uttered by the noble lord (Byron), who had so ably addressed their lordships that night for the first time, that the military ought never to be employed except in extreme cases, and then they should be effectual, if possible, rather by the terror of their appearance, than their power of execution. But here they had been employed in a way the most ruinous to their own discipline, and the least efficient for the purpose of checking these outrages. They had been dispersed in small bodies, and made to perform the duties of civil officers. He might be mistaken as to the force of the law as it stood, but why then not inquire? The truth was, that it had been 20 years on the statute book, and never put in execution in one instance. How could ministers say that a law was inefficient which had never been tried? and yet they were not ashamed to come down, and propose to resort to this last dreadful extremity. No; the fault was not in the weakness of
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the punishment of the present law, but in the want of execution. Let their lordships compare the punishment of transportation for 14 years with the crime of breaking a stocking-frame. Was not the punishment commensurate to the crime? Aye, more than commensurate. His lordship then read some passages from the Bill, front which it appeared, that the intent to commit the crime of breaking a lace-thread, or damaging a web, rendered the offender liable to the pains of death. To this there could be only one answer,—that the punishment would never be inflicted. But as long as he lived, in a country governed by law he never would consent to put it in the power of the crown to put a fellow subject to death for damaging a piece of cotton or lace.
The Lord Chancellorwas about to put the question, when
Earl Greyobserved, that it was of importance to know what the object of noble lords on the other side was in proposing this Bill. Was it to inflict the penalty of death for the offence stated by his noble friend, as it appeared by the words of the Bill?
The Earl of Liverpoolstated, that the wording of the Bill was a matter for discussion in the committee, but the Bill was framed from other bills of a similar nature with reference to machinery.
Lord Hollandobserved, that it was of importance to know the intent of ministers in proposing a clause in the Bill, inflicting the penalty of death upon the intent to commit the offence described by his noble friend.
The Earl of Lauderdalethought that the House ought not to go on in the conisderation of the Bill, until they had some information of what the precise object of ministers was in proposing this Bill; and with that view he moved that the debate be adjourned till Monday.
The Earl of Liverpoolstated, that the principle of the Bill was to punish a certain offence with death; the mode of carrying that principle into effect, was matter for discussion in the committee.
Earl Greyobserved, that allowing the principle of the Bill to be to punish a certain offence with death, the nature of that offence was a part of the principle of the Bill, and before they could vote for the second reading they ought to be informed what offence it was intended to punish.
The Earl of Liverpoolstated, that un-doubtedly it was the intention of government

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to inflict the punishment of death instead of transportation, and the clauses describing the offence were copied from the Bill, which rendered it a transportable offence.
Lord Grenvillesaid, that what had been stated by the noble lord, was indeed a still stronger reason for adjourning the debate till Monday. Here was a minister, who came down to parliament to inflict the punishment of death upon his fellow-citizens, but for what offence that minister knew not. It was in truth for the credit of ministers themselves that this debate should be adjourned, in order that they might be enabled to explain what offence they intended to punish with death. But whatever they might think, he could not give his vote that the House should be involved in the infamy of going to the second reading of a Bill for inflicting the punishment of death upon their fellow-citizens, without knowing what the nature of the offence was that it was intended to punish.
The House divided on the question that the debate be adjourned till Monday. Contents 17: Not-Contents 32. Majority 15. The-Bill was then read a second time, and committed for Monday. On the motion of the earl of Lauderdale, their lordships were ordered to be summoned for Monday. The noble earl also moved, that the Judges be ordered to attend on Monday, which was negatived.