Sitting of 29 April 1812

EXPENCE OF PUBLISHING PROCLAMATIONS IN THE IRISH NEWSPAPERS.
Sir John Newportmoved, "That there be laid
1114
before this House, a detailed Account of the expenditure of the sum of 10,205 l. 12 s. paid from the Treasury of Ireland, for publishing Proclamations, and other matters of a public nature, in the Dublin Gazette, and other newspapers in Ireland, from the 5th of January 1811 to the 5th of January 1812, specifying the titles and dates of the Proclamations so published and paid for." In making this motion, the right hon. gentleman reprobated the wasteful manner in which the public money was expended, by the publication of these Proclamations, which, he said, were frequently given to the proprietors of newspapers, as a remuneration for their services, in supporting the measures of the government.
Mr. Wellesley Polefelt no disposition to object to the motion, although the right hon. gentleman had not given any regular notice of his intention to bring it forward. With respect to the wasteful manner in which the right hon. gentleman had stated the public money had been squandered, he had only to observe, that during the last year, for the first time, the expenditure for the purposes alluded to, had been much less than on any former occasion, having been within the sum allowed by parliament for that purpose. When the right hon. gentleman was Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, the expenditure was 17,000 l. per annum, and was never less than 15,000 l. The newspaper in which the proclamations were generally inserted, was The Dublin Journal, which it was known had been the channel through which the Irish government had issued their orders for fifty years. As to the assertion, that the Irish government had rewarded or encouraged the conductors of newspapers who had thought proper to support their measures, by any unnecessary expenditure of public money, he begged leave to give it the most unqualified contradiction.
Mr. Parnellgave full credit to the right hon. gentleman, for the œconomical measures which had been pursued by the present government of Ireland. He, however, observed, that it had been candidly admitted by his predecessor in office (lord Wellington,) that those proclamations were given to certain papers as a reward; for their advocating the measures of government.
The motion was then agreed to.

BILL FOR PREVENTING THE COUNTER FEITING OF SILVER COIN.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerpostponed till to-morrow his motion for repressing the issue of Local Tokens. He should now, however, pursuant to notice, move for leave to bring in a Bill to increase the penalties imposed last year on the imitating and counterfeiting of tokens issued by the Bank. He proposed also, that provision should be made in the Bill for repressing an abuse which must have come within the observation of many gentlemen—he meant the engraving of pieces of paper which had all the semblance of Bank notes, and which were calculated to catch the eye of the unwary. He had seen a parcel of these papers, which at a little distance, and when not narrowly inspected, had the appearance of bank-notes for one, five, or twenty pounds, which escaped the charge of forgery by having the word 'pins' instead of pounds, but which from their texture and appearance might escape detection and pass with the unwary, as had actually happened in a variety of instances. The present penalty for fraudulently putting off such papers was only six months imprisonment. He proposed that the Bill should increase it to 12 months imprisonment for the first offence, and that the offender should find security for his good behaviour for two years. For the second offence, he had to propose transportation for years. For the more effectual prevention of the counterfeiting of Bank tokens, he proposed, that the offence should be made a transportable felony for 14 years. He concluded with moving,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the further prevention of the counterfeiting of silver coin issued by the governor and company of the bank of England, called dollars; and of silver pieces issued and circulated by the said governor and company, called tokens; and for the further prevention of frauds practised by the imitation of the notes or bills of the said governor and company." Leave granted.

PETITIONS FROM SHEFFIELD, AND WHITBY, RESPECTING THE RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER
A Petition of the merchants, master manufacturers, and other principal inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Sheffield, agreed upon at a meeting held at the Cutler's-hall on the 6th day of April, 1812, was presented and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners cannot, without deep concern, and some degree of alarm,
1116
contemplate the present state of the commerce and manufactures of the United Kingdom, excluded as they are, in a great measure, from the principal markets in every quarter of the globe, from the continent of Europe by the envious malignant and persevering exertions of the lawless ruler of France, from North America by those intricate and long protracted disputes which continue to perplex the councils of both nations, from Africa by the difficulty of access, and the barbarism of its general population, and from the richest provinces of Asia by the exclusive monopoly of the East India Company; and that the petitioners trust they shall ever bear, without murmuring, all necessary burthens and unavoidable privations, rather than compromise, in the smallest degree, the honour, the interest, or the security of their country; they cannot, however, but feel it a duty thus candidly and temperately to state to the House, the difficulties and distresses which all ranks of mercantile men and manufacturers in the town and neighbourhood of Sheffield experience at the present time, and to claim, with freedom and confidence, every relief and assistance within the power of the House to afford; and that the petitioners are convinced, that one of the most easy and effectual measures for this purpose would be the discontinuance at the close of the present grant of the East India Company's commercial monopoly; and that the petitioners are fully persuaded, if the trade to the East Indies were thrown open to all his Majesty's subjects, such new and abundant markets would be discovered and established, as would enable them to set at defiance every effort to injure them by that sworn enemy to their prosperity, and the peace of Europe, the present unprincipled ruler of France; and that the petitioners doubt not, if the trade of this United Kingdom were permitted to flow unimpeded over those extensive luxuriant and opulent regions, though it might, in the outset, like a torrent represt and swoln by obstruction when its sluices were first opened, break forth with uncontroulable impetuosity, deluging instead of supplying the district before it; yet that very violence which, at the beginning, might be partially injurious, would, in the issue, prove highly and permanently beneficial; no part being unvisited, the waters of commerce, that spread over the face of the land as they subsided, would wear themselves

1117
channels through which they might continue to flow ever afterwards in regular and fertilizing streams; and that to the wealthy, enterprizing, honourable and indefatigable British merchant conducting in person his own concerns, no obstacle would prove insurmountable, no prejudice invincible, no difficulty disheartening; wants, where he found them, he would supply; where they did not exist, he would create them, by affording the means of gratification; and that the petitioners are aware, that the commercial monopoly of the East India Company, while it is exceedingly prejudicial to the mercantile interest of the community at large, is only in a small proportion profitable to the proprietors themselves, and, if permitted to continue, there is reason to believe that its advantages will be gradually reduced and deteriorated; on the particular evils resulting from this monopoly the petitioners forbear to expatiate, being well assured that these will not escape the vigilant eye of the British legislature, nor be suffered longer to exist than the welfare of the colonies themselves, and the strict justice due to the claims of the East India Company, shall imperiously require; and praying the House to take into serious consideration the propriety of refusing to renew the expiring grant of an exclusive right of trade to certain countries between the Cape of Good Hope and the Straits of Magellan to the East India Company, the petitioners being convinced that such a measure offers the fairest probability of alleviating the distresses of this country, reviving its commerce and manufactures, improving its revenue, increasing the navy, and, with the navy, the strength of the British empire, and under the blessing of Providence, enabling us most successfully to defeat the ambitious projects of an implacable foe, who finds our resistance an insuperable bar to the accomplishment of his scheme of universal domination."
A Petition of the merchant ship owners and other inhabitants of the town of Whitby, in the county of York, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the approaching expiration of the East India Company's Charter having occupied the attention of the House, the petitioners beg leave to observe, that, if the trade to the British dominions in India and to the immense and populous countries included in the Charter; were laid open to
1118
the skill industry and capital of private merchants, it would be conducted with a degree of energy and economy which a large public body is incapable of exercising, new channels of commerce would be discovered, the consumption of our manufactures extended, and our shipping increased, to the advantage of the parties concerned, and the permanent augmentation of the wealth power and resources of the British empire; and that the extensive and flourishing commerce of the United States of America with India and the Chinese empire, exhibits a proof that these expectations of advantage from the exertions of private individuals are not unfounded; and that the petitioners hope and trust that no reason can be found, either in justice or in policy, for the exclusion of the out-ports from the benefit of the trade with India; and though the inhabitants of the port of Whitby might not embark directly in the trade, yet they have no doubt of profiting in common with their countrymen, from the increased employment which it would offer to British shipping, and the new markets which it would open to our manufactures, and the petitioners further humbly request that the House will not impose any restraint on the British merchant respecting the burthen of any vessel to be employed in the trade, but leave the choice to his own judgment and discretion; and praying the House will be pleased to adopt such measures as to their wisdom shall seem meet, for granting to all his Majesty's subjects, from and after the expiration of the East India Company's Charter, a free trade to and from India and its dependencies, and to and from the empire of China."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITION OF THE MERCHANTS, &C. IN GLASGOW, IN FAVOUR OF THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.
A Petition of the subscribers, merchants, and manufacturers in Glasgow, was presented and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners having been informed that certain merchants and manufacturers of the city of Glasgow have represented to the House, that the trade and manufactures of the nation, and particularly of that part of the United Kingdom, have been greatly injured by the operation of his Majesty's Orders in Council of the 26th of April, 1809, the petitioners think it due to themselves humbly to state to the House that, in their opinion, the Orders in

1119
Council have not limited or restricted the trade and manufactures of this nation, or of that part of the United Kingdom, excepting in so far as they may have been the means of producing those measures on the part of the American government which have led to the interruption of a direct intercourse with that country; that, viewed as a measure of hostility and retaliation against the enemy, they have been eminently successful, since they have injured his revenue, entirely destroyed his commerce, and deprived him of the means of disposing of the productions of France and Holland; that, under the persuasion of the truth and justness of these opinions, the petitioners humbly apprehend it would be unwise to sacrifice, to the wishes of a small proportion of the trading part of the community, to the threats of any power whatever, or to an object comparatively of small importance, a system of acting, which has already produced consequences so disastrous to the enemy; and praying, that no steps may be taken to advise the relinquishing of measures and principles essential to the vigorous prosecution of the war."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

CHARITABLE DONATIONS REGISTRY BILL.
Mr. Lockhartmoved the order of the day for the third reading of this Bill.
Sir W. Curtissaid, the principle of this Bill was such, as to call for general approbation; yet there were clauses in it which, in his opinion, would completely overbalance any good effects which might result from it. He should, therefore, give his vote against its passing into an act.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, he was really going to see whether the opposition of the worthy alderman was given with a grave face or not. He saw it was, although he observed a smile on the countenance of the worthy alderman, at which he was not surprized, when he recollected that the only objection which induced him to oppose the progress of the Bill was, the fact of there being no exemption of the Charities of the city of London. He begged to assure the hon. member, that there was not the slightest suspicion entertained of the honour of the different guilds of the city of London; but if they were exempted from registering their donations, the same privilege would be claimed by other corporations, and the great object of the Bill would be defeated. Indeed, such claims had actually been made from Bristol
1120
and other places, but they had been studiously resisted, as interfering with the main principle of the measure.
Mr. Lockhartexpressed his surprize at the objection which had been urged by the hon. baronet. The more especially when he considered that there had been but one single petition presented against the Bill, and that from the Merchant Taylors' Company; which, while it approved of the principle of the Bill, objected to provisions therein which did not in reality exist. The regulations proposed were extremely simple, and such as no honest man could fairly dissent from.
Mr. Wrotteskystated, that he had received a letter from the Merchant Taylors' Company, calling upon him to oppose the Bill, as unwise and unnecessary; but on examining its merits, so far was he from concurring in the opinion that it was unwise or unnecessary, that he conceived it of great importance, and likely to be productive of the utmost benefit to the public, as it would prevent those abuses in the disposition of charitable donations which had so long existed with impunity. He should give it all the support in his power.
Sir James Grahamconceived the Bill wholly unnecessary, and only calculated to put money in the pockets of the persons with whom the registries were to be made.
Mr. Thompsonsupported the Bill.
Mr. Herbertwished that royal hospitals should be exempted.
Sir W. Curtissaid, the objection to the Bill did not arise with the corporation of London, but with the twelve companies.
The question being then called for, the House divided—For the Bill 32; Against it 11; Majority 21. The Bill was then read a third time, and passed.

COMMITTEE ON THE PETITIONS AGAINST THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.
The Speakerwished to ascertain whether it was intended to adhere to the accustomed rule of not permitting witnesses to be in hearing during the examination of others. It was right that this point should be settled at their outset. Upon this a conversation of some length arose, in which Mr. Brougham, the Speaker, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Ryder, and other members participated, and it was at last understood, that witnesses in hearing during the examination of preceding witnesses, should be liable to be objected to on that account.
The order of the day for going into a committee was then read.
Sir T. Turton,not having been in the House last night, rose to ask a few questions. He wished to know if the right hon. gentleman opposite meant to go into a committee merely to ascertain the distresses of the country, and not to endeavour to discover a mode of relieving them? If so, it was to add insult and illusion to the misery of the petitioners. He asked if, consistent with the Declaration published within these few days by the government, it was possible for them to yield the relief of a repeal of the Orders in Council? They could not; and therefore he thought the Committee nugatory, and the hope of these unfortunate persons forlorn. He required explanation on several other points in the discussion of last night.
Mr. Rosesaid, that what he had stated last night was, that it did not follow that America would, of course, be satisfied with the repeal of the Orders in Council.
Mr. Stephenexplained a misrepresentation of his speech last night. He did not say that it would be necessary to have Vattel, and Puffendorf, and Grotius on the table of the committee, but that if every matter connected with the enquiry was gone into, as held out by gentlemen on the other side, that might be the natural consequence. With regard to the Petitions against the Orders in Council, he had said, that if it had been thought ministers were inclined to alter their system of policy, there would have been a number of counter Petitions. He had also maintained the doctrine, that a country might cease a retaliating measure, if it found itself hurt by it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, alluding to an expression of sir T. Turton, that the committee would be illusory and insulting, animadverted, in pointed terms, on the use of such language. If the course taken by government were called so, nothing could be more mistaken than the motives imputed to them; and what would, on the other hand have been said, had they refused to go into this committee?—that they had refused to hear the Petitions, and enquire into their distresses; and then, indeed, the charge of insulting would have been rung in their ears. He considered it to be due to the petitioners to ascertain the full extent of their grievances, while at the same time they might determine to persevere in that line of policy most beneficial to the general interests of the empire. With regard to the Declaration alluded to, it certainly contained the sentiments of
1122
the Prince Regent's government, called forth as they were by the statement of the French minister, declaring the Berlin and Milan Decrees to be fundamental laws of the French empire, and attaching no consequence to the repeal of the Orders in Council, unless accompanied by the abandonment of our maritime rights. After this he was convinced, if America acted with the impartiality she professed, when this document was produced, she could not, without making common cause with France, pretend to say, that the Berlin and Milan Decrees were repealed—and must be bound and obliged to put this country on an equal footing with France, nor grant her indulgences not granted to us. But at the same time ministers entertained these views, were they, as members of parliament, to refuse to enquire into the extent of the mischief done to our manufacturers, and ascertain how much might be attributable to the Orders in Council—how much, to other causes?
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that from the arguments of the right hon. gentleman, and from the Declaration of the government which had just been published, he was quite convinced that, till within a few hours of the time, that right hon. gentleman had been disposed to resist going into this committee; and, therefore, he was not now to ascribe his acquiescence to respect to the petitioners, but to his being compelled to the vote, by the hints of his own friends, that they would not give him their support in refusing the enquiry. He denied that the Declaration was well founded, and maintained that the policy of the right hon. gentleman, if persevered in, and not checked by the House, as his former determination had been, must inevitably lead to an American war.
Mr. Wilberforceearnestly recommended to the House to enter into this examination with a proper and serious feeling for the distresses of the country, and with their minds purged of all party views. They ought to set themselves fairly to ascertain the extent and amount of the evil, and to what causes it was to be ascribed, with a desire to remove them if possible. This being their duty, he could not help condemning the line of argument adopted by the hon. gentleman who spoke last. It was wrong to impute bad motives for an act which he himself considered to be a good one; instead of the most obvious and natural motive, a feeling for the distresses

1123
of the people, and a wish to relieve them. The House would do their duty, and prove themselves the friends of the people by entering into this enquiry, and the more so if they beforehand purged their minds of all those acrimonious opinions, and only endeavoured to contribute the greatest sum to universal happiness.
Mr. Broughamcoincided entirely in the wise and candid sentiments expressed by the hon. gentleman who had just sat down. It was impossible that the House could go into the intended committee with better impressions. This was no common investigation, for the nation was, he would not say, in a state of universal distress, but certainly in a state of universal com plaint, as was proved by the numerous Petitions. He hoped that every member would go into the committee without any bias and for his own part he most solemnly declared that his mind was divested from all former opinions, and ready to admit any evidence as if he was in a Jury box.
The House then went into a committee, Mr. Babington in the chair.
Mr. Broughamstated, that some of the witnesses not being in town, would cause the course of examination to be more desultory than intended; and after a few words from the Chancellor of the Exchequer and lord Stanley,
Mr. ThomasAttwood, high bailiff of Birmingham, was called in, and examined by Mr. Brougham. This witness was principally cross-examined by Mr. Stephen; but some questions were also put to him by Mr. Whitbread, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Baring, Mr. Wilberforce, Mr. Lyttelton, and Mr. Brougham; after which he was ordered to withdraw.
The second person called to give evidence was Mr. William Whitehead, a master manufacturer in the town of Birmingham. The examination of this witness having been concluded, the House resumed, and the further proceedings of the committee were adjourned till to-morrow.
Mr. Broughamexpressed a wish that a document, for which he had called previous to the first debate on the Orders in Council, but which had been refused, might now be laid before the House. It was particularly necessary, as the inquiry had been begun, that this paper should be produced. It was an account of the Exports of Great Britain to all parts of the world, for a certain period, distinguishing the Exports to each country. This was
1124
exactly the same document, which, until within the two last years, had been annually laid on the table. If the right hon. gentleman opposite conceived that danger would arise from so detailed an account, he might omit those items which he considered objectionable; but, to refuse a document in toto, which was so necessary to direct many questions which must be put to witnesses as to their trade with different places, would seem to indicate an opposition to the object of the committee.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not think the production of a part of the account would answer the object of the hon. gentleman; and he could very easily form in his own mind the danger to be apprehended from laying the whole account on the table. By it those parts of Europe and of the world would be pointed out to the enemy, with which we carried on the greatest trade, and much mischief might arise from such a disclosure, when it was recollected how anxious the enemy was to occupy with his troops those ports where British manufactures were permitted to be landed.
Lord Miltonconceived the account might be drawn up in the way mentioned by his learned friend, from which no danger was likely to arise.
Mr. Baringagreed, that a full disclosure would be likely to occasion ill consequences; but the account, he thought, could be so generalized as to give every information, without producing any harm whatever. The trade to the Straits, the Brazils, Portugal, Spain, and the Spanish colonies, could be stated without any fear of the discovery causing a diminution.
Mr. Broughamsaid, he only wanted an account of the description mentioned by his hon. friend. To the places enumerated by him he could wish to have added, Sicily, Malta, and Heligoland.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexpressed himself willing to give every information consistent with prudence. If no danger attended the production of the document, he and his friends would be extremely happy to grant it. By fully shewing the system on which trade was at present conducted, it would operate decisively in defence of the measures pursued.
Mr. H. Thorntonwas anxious that the account of our Exports to Spain and Portugal should be laid before the House. Some time ago, those Exports were stated to amount to 18,000,000 l. per annum. He should be glad to know how much the

1125
Exports to our army contributed to that sum?
Mr. Stephenobserved, that the increase was in a great measure owing to our supplying those articles which were formerly furnished by Holland, but which trade our Orders in Council had prevented.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he did not believe a single item of the Exports to the army was contained in the list of Exports
After a few words from Mr. Brougham, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Barham, the conversation ended. The Minutes of Evidence were then brought up, and ordered to be printed.