Sitting of 27 April 1812

PETITIONS FROM THE WOOLLEN MANUFACTURERS OF GLOUCESTER—SHIP OWNERS OF SUNDERLAND—ROPE MAKERS OF LONDON—ALSO FROM LANCASTER, WIGAN, STOCKPORT, CLITHEROE, AND RUTHERGLEN, RESPECTING THE RENEWAL OF THE EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
A Petition of the woollen manufacturers of the county of Gloucester, and other persons interested in the woollen trade, was presented and read; selling forth,
"That the petitioners humbly beg leave to represent to the House, that by various charters granted from time to time to the East India Company, the petitioners have for a long series of years been restricted from carrying on trade with a large portion of the globe, whereby the petitioners have been deprived of those privileges which they humbly presume to be the common birthright of all his Majesty's subjects, under such regulations as the policy of this country may require: and the petitioners further beg leave humbly to stale to the House, that they cannot but regard all monopoly as highly in-
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jurious to the general interests of the country at large, and as tending greatly to discourage and depress that spirit and industry which are indispensable to the prosperity of their manufactures; and that the petitioners therefore have deemed it advisable to appeal to the House, in the humble but confident hope, that it will consider the protection of the rights of his Majestys subjects to a free trade to all parts of the British empire, and other countries in amity with this kingdom, as amongst the first and most important objects of legislative regulation; and praying the House lo take the subject of the renewal of the Charter to the East India Company into its most serious consideration, and to adopt such measures for abolishing the present monopoly, and for opening a free trade to all parts of the British Empire, and other countries in amity with this kingdom, as the wisdom and justice of parliament may deem most expedient."
A petition of the ship owners, merchants, and other inhabitants of the port of Sunderland, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, although willing at all times to make every sacrifice for the honour of their country, cannot help slating to the House, the depressed and deplorable state of the shipping and manufactures of this kingdom; and that the monopoly of the East India Company, however expedient or necessary, at the grant of their present Charter, is as the petitioners humbly conceive, in the present state of commerce and of the world no longer so, and it is moreover inconsistent with those principles which are universally admitted to be essential to the prosperity of commerce; and that the petitioners, while they lament the confined and fettered state of the trade of this island from political circumstances, humbly conceive the abolition of the East India monopoly will open an extensive market for British manufactures, render the kingdom less dependant upon an intercourse with the continent of Europe, and revive the declining interest of the shipping of this kingdom, an interest which it is the imperious duty of every Briton at this particular crisis to support; and that in no view of the subject can there be a reason why the East India Company should be allowed a monopoly, because if they can carry on the trade to greater advantage than individuals they

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will have nothing to fear from the competition of individuals, and if they cannot so carry it on they ought not to be suffered to uphold their monopoly to the injury of their country; and that the petitioners forbear to enlarge upon the decrease of the trade of the East India Company, notwithstanding the great increase of their territorial possessions, they forbear also to enlarge upon the increase which has taken place in the trade carried on by foreign individuals, who have ingrossed into their hands so great a proportion of the whole commerce of the East; knowing, as the petitioners do, that all these facts are before the House, and not doubting that they will give to them that deliberate consideration which their great importance demands: and that the petitioners look up with confidence to the House as their representatives and natural protectors; and do indulge a most confident hope, that the House will not suffer their serious and weighty interests to be carried to any partial considerations; and praying, that the House will adopt the necessary measures for the total abolition of the commercial monopoly of the East India Company at the expiration of their present Charter, but, in the event of the House seeing reasons to continue, in some degree, a commercial monopoly of the East India Company, the petitioners do then most earnestly implore, that they will not suffer it to deprive British subjects of any privileges which are allowed to neutral nations, and that the Charter may be made subject to such modifications and additions as may best promote the interest of shipping and manufactures of the United Kingdom, leaving open to the capital, the enterprize, and industry of British merchants, all the islands of the Indian ocean, together with such parts of the continents of Asia and Africa as to the House may seem expedient."
A Petition of several rope makers resident in the port of London, was also presented and read; setting forth.
"That the petitioners have erected, at a very considerable expence, large and extensive manufactories for ropes and cordage within the port of London, and that they employ therein numerous industrious individuals, who altogether depend on the trade of the petitioners for the subsistence of themselves and families; and that the outfit of British-built ships for the service of the East India Company, and
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the intervening supplies of ropes and cordage to such ships during their respective charters, have hitherto constituted a very considerable proportion of the trade of the petitioners; and that they view, with great anxiety, the system which has been introduced by the East India Company, not only of employing in their regular and private trade Indian built ships, but of their open encouragement of them for the general trade of this country; and that the petitioners are apprehensive that, in case India built ships are allowed to be employed in the trade of this country, the same will prove ruinous to them and to the numerous individuals who are dependent on them, and also injurious to the state, it being well known that, in time of war, his Majesty's navy is largely supplied with ropes and cordage from the private manufactories, the artisans therein employed cannot therefore be kept up at the said port without constant employment, which the building and equipment of ships in the river Thames for the service of the East India Company have hitherto afford-ed; and that the petitioners do not presume to enumerate to the House the various national and private evils, which will inevitably result from a continuance of this system, which must affect the vital interests of the state, and tend rapidly to render precarious the permanency of the naval power of the country, besides its injurious effect in that point of view, the diversion of so much capital from Great Britain will be seriously detrimental to its prosperity, and be the means of raising a naval power in the East, which may at no distant period of time become a source of annoyance to the mother country, which so improvidently admitted its establishment; and that the petitioners have recently learnt, with great surprize, that, in addition to the India built ships in the service of the East India Company, they have been admitted to British registry here, and that several of them are now employed in the general carrying trade of Great Britain: many of these ships, it is understood, have had certificates of registry granted to them in this country, some on the certificates from the builders or other persons in India, and others from having obtained certificates of registry there but by what authority in either case the same have been allowed, the petitioners have not been able to ascertain, for they are informed, that the provisions of the register acts do not invest the Com-

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pany's officers in India with any such authority, but that the same can only be granted by the officers of his Majesty's customs, who are specially designated by the acts referred to for that purpose; and that the petitioners are afraid, unless the House shall condescend to interfere, and to check a system so prejudicial to the maritime interests of Great Britain, that the petitioners, in common with all others who are dependent on the building and equipment of British built ships, must in a very few years, and especially on the return of peace, abandon their establishments altogether, as they will not possess the means of maintaining their present extensive manufactories, and consequently they will become incapable of rendering any assistance to the public service on future emergencies when the exigences of the state may require it; under these circumstances the petitioners most humbly pray, that in future East India built ships may be prohibited by statute from being admitted to registry and to the privileges of British built ships."
A Petition of the merchants, ship owners, tradesmen, and other inhabitants of the town of Lancaster, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners beg leave to represent to the House, that, by various charters granted to the East India Company, for a long series of years, an exclusive right has been exercised of carrying on the trade to the extensive possessions in that quarter of the globe; and that the petitioners, having assembled together at a general meeting, have resolved to appeal for redress to the House, humbly praying, that the Charier to the East India Company may not be renewed, and that the petitioners may be permitted to enjoy a free trade in common with all his Majesty's subjects; and praying the House to adopt such measures for abolishing the commercial monopoly of the East India Company, as to them may seem most expedient."
A Petition of the mayor, aldermen, burgesses, and inhabitants of the borough of Wigan, in the county of Lancaster, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the power and prosperity of the British empire depend eminently on the extent of its commerce, and that it is the birthright of every British subject to share in that commerce to the full extent of his
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industry and capital, under such regulations as the legislature may impose equally on all adventurers; and that all monopolies, as national measures are highly impolitic, tending only to the aggrandizement of a few individuals, the obstruction of commerce, and the depression of public spirit and general enterprize; and that the depressed state of the commerce and manufactures of this empire, the embarrassments of the merchant and tradesman, and the calamitous condition of the labouring poor, call imperiously upon the legislature, and all public men, to adopt the most effectual means, consistently with the national honour, for their relief; and that, as a most important measure of this nature, the petitioners humbly conceive that the commercial monopoly of the East India Company should be totally discontinued at the termination of their present Charter, and that a free trade to every country in amity with this empire should be open to all his Majesty's subjects; and that the reasoning adduced to shew the expediency of maintaining the chartered privileges of the East India Company, either with respect to China, or any other of the countries to which they extend, as well as the confining of the trade with those countries to the port of London, in the humble opinion of the petitioners, proceeds from narrow and partial views, and has been demonstrated fallacious by arguments which are incontrovertible; and that it appears to the petitioners., that a free and unrestricted trade to India would revive the manufactures of this country, extend its commerce, and alleviate the evils which press so heavily on a large portion of the community; and praying, that the House will adopt such measures, as to their patriotism and wisdom may seem best, for the abolition of the exclusive commercial monopoly of the East India Company, and for the general diffusion of Indian commerce to every part of this empire."
A Petition of the merchants, manufacturers and other inhabitants of the town of Stockport, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That it appears to the petitioners that, however beneficial or even necessary it may have been, in the infancy of the commerce of this country, to grant a monopoly of the trade to the East, it cannot now be compatible with the national interests, and ought therefore to cease entirely

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at the termination of the present Charter of the East India Company; and that if, upon general principles, it would he unwise and inexpedient to renew this monopoly, it is more especially so in the present restricted state of the foreign trade of the nation, which even the return of peace cannot be expected to restore to its wonted freedom; and that, should the legislature, in its wisdom, see fit to throw open the commerce of the East, its liberal intentions will he in a great measure, frustrated, should there be left to the India Company any direction of, or controul over, the private trade; and that, to confine the importations to the port of London, and to compel the private trader to sell at the Company's sales, will equally frustrate these internions, in as far as the petitioners and others of his Majesty's subjects, similarly situated, are concerned; for, not to mention (he additional expence and delay there by occasioned, they will be prevented from importing, for their own use, the cotton wool, indigo, and other raw materials of the East, which would be their chief inducement to and advantage from engaging in the trade; and that, to confine the importations to one place, merely for the convenience of collecting the duties, is a ruinous policy, injurious to the revenue itself, which must ultimately suffer far more from the limited imports of a trade thus shackled than it can possibly gain by any difference in the facility of collection; and praying, that the House will refuse its sanction to the prolongation of the monopoly of the East India Company beyond the term of their existing Charter, or to any controul by them over the private trade to the East, or to limiting to one port the privilege of importing from thence; and should the House, in its wisdom, deem it expedient to grant pecuniary aid to the said Company, or the continuation of any of their exclusive privileges, the petitioners further pray, that such grants may be on condition of their immediately opening the trade of the East generally to his Majesty's subjects, that the earliest possible relief may be thereby afforded to the trade and manufactures of this nation in the present most pressing exigency."
A Petition of the bailiffs, burgesses and other inhabitants of the borough of Clitheroe in Lancashire, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners consider all their fellow subjects as having a right to a free
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trade with all parts of the British empire and other countries in amity with this kingdom, subject only to such general regulations of trade as the policy of this country may require, or as may be necessary for maintaining the relations of these realms with foreign states, and securing to government those revenues which may be necessary for its support; and that they conceive, that he great object of all legislative regulation in the commercial concerns of the country is the protection of this equal right in the subject, and the further extension of an honourable, just, and legitimate commerce; and that there-fore all monopolies which exclude the general body of the people from trading with other countries are in derogation of the birthright of the subject, and counteract the chief purpose which they ought to have in view; and the petitioners humbly suggest, that, on the expiration of the East India Company's present grant, the full and absolute trade to India, to China, and other Eastern shores and seas, reverts, as their undoubted birthright and inheritance, to the subjects of these realms, under such salutary laws for regulating and protecting their commerce as the legislature, in its wisdom, may deem necessary; and that the petitioners further beg leave to observe, that the monopoly of the East India Company is prejudicial to the general interests of the country at large, discourages that commercial spirit, and cools that ardour of generous and liberal competition which, from the nature and local situation of these islands, are indispensable to their prosperity, and upon which their security at this moment essentially depends; and that upon these grounds the petitioners unite with their fellow subjects in petitioning the House for the abolition of the commercial monopoly of the East India Company as speedily and effectually as, in its united wisdom, may be judged most expedient."
A Petition of the magistrates and common council of the burgh of Rutherglen, in the county of Lanark, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That, amongst the many evils which a war of nineteen years duration has produced, none have more sensibly affected that part of the country than the present depressed slate of commerce and manufactures, owing to which the misery amongst the lower classes of the community is very great, many being without employment,

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and others, by the utmost exertions of industry, unable to procure a sufficiency of food; and that, under these circumstances so afflictive, the petitioners humbly conceive, that opening the trade to Hindostan and China, to the enterprize of the whole people of the United Kingdom, might tend to relieve or alleviate these distresses; and praying the House not to grant any exclusive privilege to the East India or any other Company to trade to Hindostan or China."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITION FROM THE SHIP OWNERS OF SUNDERLAND RESPECTING THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.
A Petition of the ship owners of the port of Sunderland, was presented and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners cannot but view, with serious apprehension, the system of granting licences to bring wood into this country in foreign bottoms continued, a system manifestly tending to the injury of British shipping, and directly affecting the trade to our colonies in North America, the only trade at present open to the petitioners, the political situation of this kingdom precluding any intercourse with the Baltic, or any foreign port in the north of Europe; and that, whilst the petitioners are determined to bear every burthen, and to make every sacrifice, rather than compromise the security or honour of their country, they cannot but feel it their duty humbly to state to the House, that, in almost every port of this kingdom, they see the flags of the northern slates displayed in proud commercial prosperity, when the British flag in their ports is no where to be seen; the inevitable consequence of which must be, amongst others, a rapid improvement in a foreign race of seamen, who before were almost unacquainted with nautical affairs, a circumstance, when looked at in a political point of view, of most alarming importance; and that the petitioners, though alive to the measures recently enacted by the legislature, of imposing a double duty on all timber brought into this country (except from any British colony, plantation, or settlement in Africa or America) still beg leave humbly to express, that foreign vessels, owing to their being so cheaply navigated, and their voyages so short, can with this double duty attached to their cargoes, import wood into this country, and sell it for a less sum than it is possible for the British ship owner to do from
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America; and to verify this assertion, the petitioners beg leave to slate that since last August, the time when this double duty took place, foreign vessels laden with timber, notwithstanding the subsequent regulation compelling them, before they import a cargo to export one of a specific value, have and are still continuing to crowd into this kingdom: and that it is with great sensations of regret the petitioners feel compelled to state to the House, that the coal trade has been in a depressed state these twelve months, and has now become altogether ruinous, owing principally to an influx of vessels seeking employment therein, that heretofore were otherwise engaged: and that, although the petitioners feel sensible of the peculiarly fettered situation of the trade of this kingdom, they humbly beg leave to represent to the House, that a continuance in the system of granting licences to foreign vessels to import wood into this country must speedily tend to the complete ruin of the shipping; and praying, that the House will be pleased to appoint a committee to take into consideration the infraction of the British navigation laws, the result of whose deliberations, they trust, will prove the necessity of ceasing to grant licences to foreign vessels to import wood into this country, or otherwise to grant the petitioners such relief as to the House shall seem meet."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITION FROM LIVERPOOL RESPECTING THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.
General Gascoynesaid, that he was instructed by his constituents to present to the House a Petition, signed by 6,500 most respectable individuals of the town of Liverpool, who in the space of only four days, had stepped forward to affix their signatures, for the purpose of praying the repeal of the Orders in Council as the cause of the commercial distress which affected not that place merely, but the country in general. The majority of the persons whose names now appeared at the fool of the Petition, were those who had signed a Petition against the Orders in Council when those measures first originated, and had then foretold the calamities which the trade of Liverpool had since suffered from the effects of those Orders, and from the closing of the ports of America. The melancholy statement of the actual condition of Liver pool, which was inserted in the Petition, was unwillingly obtruded upon the feel-

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ings of the House, in consequence of the contradiction given upon this subject to the information which an hon. member (Mr. Creevey) had deemed it right to afford. Upon the general question he would now say nothing, but merely move that the Petition be brought up.—The question having been put,
Mr. Creeveyreferred to the 6,560 witnesses who in this Petition bore ample testimony of the perfect truth of the assertions he had made regarding the real miseries of the inhabitants of Liverpool.
General Tarletonobserved, that the accounts he had obtained, and which he had communicated to parliament on a former occasion, in opposition to the allegations of the hon. gentleman, were derived from the most respectable authority.
Mr. Whartonbore witness to the deference due to the quarter to which the hon. general was indebted for his intelligence, and stated that he had himself received letters corroborating the facts formerly brought before the House.
The Petition was then brought up and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners are compelled, by the most urgent necessity, to lay their distresses and their grievances before the House; and that the general depression of the commerce and manufactures of the country has been particularly felt by the town and port of Liverpool; that the trade has rapidly declined; and that the more laborious part of the inhabitants, consisting of shipwrights, ropemakers, sail-makers, carpenters, porters, carters, and labourers, with their numerous families, are reduced to a state of unexampled suffering and distress; and that the petitioners have heard, with surprize and indignation, that statements have been made tending to keep the House, and the country at large, in ignorance of the real state of that populous town, and denying facts which are but too grievously notorious to every inhabitant of the place; and that it is not true, as the petitioners understand it has been publicly represented, that there were not more than from 3,000 to 4,000 persons whose necessities entitled them to support and assistance from a public subscription of the inhabitants, entered into for that purpose; and that it is not true that not a single shipwright is out of employ in Liverpool, who is willing to work; and that the fact is, that the distresses of the labouring part of the community and their families having rendered relief indis-
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pensably necessary, a public subscription was entered into for that object in the month of December last, by which nearly 16,000 persons were in one week relieved and that the petitioners compute the number of persons so receiving relief to have been at least one-sixth part of the present population of the town; and that the falshood of the assertion, that there is no want of employ for those who are willing to work, is apparent through the whole town of Liverpool, amidst all its docks, on all its quays, and in every street, where numbers of industrious mechanics, many of whom are free burgesses of the town, are seen without employment, whilst others are compelled by their necessities to solicit in the vicinity of the town for charitable aid; and that, in addition to the want of employ, the distressed situation of the town is aggravated by the present high and rapidly increasing price of all the necessaries of life, from which evils, if some relief cannot be obtained, by the speedy interference of the House, the petitioners cannot but apprehend the most alarming and fatal consequences; and that it appears to the petitioners to be as impious as it is unjust, to attribute the distresses which affect the country principally to the dispensations of Providence, as to the productions of the soil, or to any other cause which the interference of the House, in conjunction with the other branches of the legislature, may not in a great degree remove; and that the petitioners have heard, with real alarm, that a high and confidential servant of the crow did, in the presence of his Majesty's Chancellor of the Exchequer, and of a respectable deputation from the inhabitants of a large manufacturing town, lately make use of language which appears to the petitioners, from the time and occasion on which it was introduced, to develope the views and intentions of ministers more decisively than thousands of state papers and public documents; and shews that they are prepared to risk the very existence of the country on the further prosecution of measures which have already reduced it to its present unexampled state of suffering; and that the petitioners cannot but avow to the House, their most solemn conviction that the distresses of the country are primarily occasioned by the present ruinous and long protracted war, by the sacrifice of the manufacturing and commercial interests of the country to war, measures injurious only to ourselves,

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thereby destroying and drying up the very sources of revenue, and, in particular, by the Orders in Council affecting in their operation our trade with neutral states; and that the consequences of these Orders are more particularly felt in the port of Liverpool, where, during the year 1807, being immediately prior to the operation of the Orders in Council, 489 American vessels, independently of other neutral ships, were cleared out, and where, in the course of six months, in the year 1809, when the effect of such Orders was understood to be suspended by negociation, 336 American vessels were cleared out, which ships were laden almost entirely with British manufactures, having afforded in their outfit profitable employment to great numbers of merchants, tradesmen, mechanics, and labourers of the town of Liverpool; and that, in consequence of the Orders in Council of November, 1807, continued in certain of their provisions by another Order in Council of the 2Gth of April, 1809, the shipments from neutral states to that port are become very inconsiderable; and that, in particular, the merchants of the American states, being by local regulations of their own government prevented, during the continuance of the Orders in Council, from importing, in return for their cargoes, the manufactures of this country, are compelled to draw bills of exchange for the proceeds of their shipments, which bills have been for some months last past at a discount in the united States of 15 to 20 percent., and are now nearly unsaleable at any price; a circumstance felt at the present time with particular pressure by this country, from its enhancing the price and greatly diminishing the quantity of grain and flour imported from America; and that, whilst the direct effect of the Orders in Council has been to diminish and injure the revenues, commerce, and manufactures of these kingdoms, they have also compelled neutrals to rely upon their own efforts for those articles which were before supplied by this country, and notoriously to establish manufactories of various kinds, which must eventually lead to an exclusion of British manufactures, and thereby render permanent those evils which are at present experienced; and that the petitioners cannot but contemplate with the most pointed sentiments of disapprobation, the system of a licensed trade with the enemy, by which a power of dispensing with the laws is vested in the minister for the time
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being, and has been exercised, as the petitioners humbly apprehend, to a most dangerous and alarming extent: that the direct and immediate effect of such measures is the increase of the naval power of our enemies, the transferring the commerce of this country to hostile and foreign traders, and the encouragement of crimes which destroy all confidence amongst civilized states, and which, when limited in their effects to these realms, are punished with the most exemplary severity; the petitioners therefore most humbly, but confidently, call upon the House to vindicate the national character, and to mark with due reprobation a system of intercourse involving the breach of all moral obligation, highly dangerous to the ultimate safety of the country, and supported by perjury, forgery, and fraud; and that the petitioners humbly conceive that these and many other evils would be done away by withdrawing the Orders in Council, that such a measure, by restoring a free intercourse between this country and neutral states, would relieve the nation in general, and the town of Liverpool in particular, from great and increasing distress, would open and restore to our manufacturers the most valuable markets which our country ever possessed, would encourage the shipments and importation of grain and flour, now so indispensably necessary to the supply of these islands, would again afford employment to the laborious part of the community, and would, as the petitioners are fully convinced, be found a speedy and substantial remedy for a great part of our present evils, and a security against those much greater calamines which appear to be rapidly approaching, and which the petitioners cannot contemplate without sentiments too alarming to be expressed; and praying, that the House will take this subject into their immediate consideration, and will afford the petitioners such relief as the House may in its wisdom think fit."
Mr. Rosesaid, that he felt it incumbent upon him to give the most positive contradiction to one paragraph in the Petition which referred immediately to himself, and which was founded on the grossest misrepresentation. It referred to a meeting between him and a committee of gentlemen from Birmingham, at which his right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was present, and the member for the county of Warwick. Instead of using any language which could lead

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the gentlemen to think that ministers were insensible to the distresses represented to them, he appealed to all who had been present if the whole of the conversation lid not show that government gave full credit to the statement made; and he (Mr. Rose) expressly allowed, that the iron manufactories of Birmingham were peculiarly injured by the existing obstruction of trade with the United States; and deeply lamented that nothing could be done for their relief. He denied in the most positive manner, that any thing passed which could be construed into an insensibility on his part, and he appealed to any member that heard him, whether throughout his public life, his conduct had not been governed by an extreme anxiety, if possible, to alleviate distresses whenever they were represented to him. He referred with the utmost confidence to his right hon. friend, to state whether a single word had been uttered by him which could afford the slightest foundation for the expressions employed by the petitioners. If he had conducted himself as was represented, he should think that he was unworthy of filling any office in the public, service for the remainder of his existence.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that the question was not whether the right hon. gent. was insensible to the miseries presented to his view, but whether he had employed the unfortunate expression referred to. He did not understand that the fact was denied that the right hon. gentleman had said that the two countries were in the situation of two men whose heads were in a bucket of water, and the struggle was, which of the two could remain longer in that situation without suffocation. This kind of metaphorical language might sufficiently express the nature of the mercantile contest produced by the Orders in Council, but it was rather unfortunate when addressed to those whose heads were under water, and suffering all the pains of strangulation.
Mr. Rose.—I assert again that I have no recollection of having used such an expression, and I am certain that it was not addressed to any of the gentlemen who waited upon me. I do not undertake to deny it positively; it might have been said by me. All I can undertake to state positively is, that no such phrase was used by me to the deputation generally; but whether I said it to any individual I will not pretend to determine. I deny too that if I used it, it proceeded from any want
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of feeling on my part for the distresses complained of.
Lord Stanleysaid, that a few days afterwards he met some of the gentlemen of the deputation, who repeated to him the words referred to in the Petition, and certainly it was considered by them as shewing a great degree of insensibility on the part of the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. J. W. Wardremarked, that the expression had been repeated to him by a member of the House a day or two after it had been used.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.

PETITION FROM LIVERPOOL RESPECTING PEACE, AND CERTAIN EXPRESSIONS MADE USE OF BY MR. ROSE.
Mr. Broughamsaid, he held in his hand another Petition from a number of the inhabitants of Liverpool, who had signed it in the course of one hour; and had it not been necessary to send it off, in order that it might accompany the preceding Petition, it would have received a much greater number of signatures. The memorial of the present petitioners was not so much against the Orders in Council, as applicable to the expressions which they had heard ascribed to the right hon. gentleman opposite, (a laugh); and which, however ridiculous they might appear to some gentlemen, were yet calculated to produce any other sensations but those of levity and laughter in the minds of those to whom they were addressed. The petitioners, feeling the multiplied distresses of their situation, had heard with regret and astonishment, the figurative language of the right hon. gentleman; from which they drew, at least, this conclusion, that the commercial measures of ministers were not to be relinquished in the smallest degree. The right hon. gentleman had disclaimed his having treated the deputation with any thing like levity; and he fully believed him, for he was convinced that neither that right hon. gentleman nor the Chancellor of the Exchequer, nor the hon. and learned gentleman, not now in his place, (Mr. Stephen,) who might be considered as the father of the Orders in Council, had now in their minds any feelings of levity or ridicule on this subject, but rather those of a very contrary description. The object of the present petitioners, however, was simply to express, not that the expressions of the right hon. gentleman conveyed insult of insensibility, but merely that they excite

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in their minds the most melancholy apprehensions, and destroyed all hope of any modification of the Orders in Council. They had imagined, that when so many memorials had been presented to ministers, some modification, at least, of those measures would have been made; but now, instead of these expectations being gratified, they were to understand that this country was finally committed to a contest with the enemy, which of them should bear privations the longer. The petitioners also proceeded to observe with pain and sorrow, that many persons in this country were possessed of sinecures and pensions to a large amount,—men who had fattened on the war which had reduced them to distress. They contrasted the situation of these pensioners with their own deplorable condition, and prayed that these sinecures and pensions might be abolished altogether, and their produce applied to carrying on the war. This sort of language might be called indelicate; but then the House should observe, that they were dealing with hungry men, who were very Utile removed from a starving situation. But whatever might be thought of some parts of this Petition, there was one conclusion which could not fail to strike every man,—namely, that the number of the Petitions which the House had received afforded a melancholy proof of the extent of the distresses, and the pressure under which the manufacturing and commercial interests laboured. Some of them were against the East India monopoly; others against the Orders in Council; and a third class, like the present, against the Orders, and also against Sinecure Places and Pensions. From all this he concluded, that the pressure on the various parts of the country was great, and almost intolerable. It was his opinion, however, that the petitioners would derive at least the most speedy relief from laying the axe to the commercial decrees of ministers.
On the question being put, that the Petition be brought up,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreprobated the discussion of a question now which might be fully debated at its proper time to-morrow. This at least was neither a usual nor a convenient way of dispatching the business of parliament. He felt himself called upon to say a few words with regard to the expression so much talked of, which was said to have dropped from his right hon. friend. He never was more
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surprized than when he heard that an injurious impression had been loft upon the minds of some individuals present at the interview, for the deputation from Birmingham appeared perfectly satisfied with the reception afforded them. Taxing his own memory he had not the least trace of such a phrase as had been so often alluded to, although it might have been uttered out of his hearing, or indeed if uttered within his hearing, he might not have noticed it. He positively denied that it could justify any such mischievous impression as that to which it had been distorted. It had been employed to exasperate the public mind, for the purpose of producing mischief; and he was sorry to see that gentlemen in that House thus gave countenance to such disgraceful attempts. It was exciting a still more outrageous spirit in those who were now employing themselves throughout the country in destroying all kinds of machinery. That was indeed laying the axe to the root, and abolishing the very means of future prosperity to the country, by which the pressure now complained of might be alleviated. Such sentiments as had just been listened to encouraged and promoted the feeling which produced these dismal Scenes of devastation. He did not mean to make any charge upon gentlemen, whose duly it was to present Petitions put into their hands, but he would appeal to every man present at the interview alluded to (excepting the individual who had originated the Statement) whether any thing passed which could be perverted into an expression of unkindness, harsh ness, or insensibility on the part of ministers. Whatever might have been the particular words employed, he would not take upon himself to determine, but he would bear positive testimony that in his right hon. friend's mind there was no feeling which could justify the distortion of phrase which had been attributed to him.
Mr. Tierneyobserved, that the most convenient mode would be for the right hon. gentleman to state what he really did say. It undoubtedly was fair that the right hon. gentleman should have an opportunity of explaining the construction he put upon the words said to have been employed. A present the sense applied to the metaphor seemed to be that which it bore, without any perversion. It must be admitted, that it conveyed no very pleasant idea to the minds of the petition-

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ers, when they were told that they were like a man with his head in a bucket of water.
Mr. Roserepeated, that he had not the most faint remembrance of having employed the language attributed to him. All he could say was, that in his mind there was nothing at all disrespectful to the gentlemen, or unfeeling to the individuals they represented. He was sorry not to see the hon. member for Warwickshire in his place, who would be able to state his recollection of the transaction. He was happy that the the present opportunity had been afforded him of disclaiming that which had been most unjustly attributed to him, viz. an insensibility to the complaints that had been urged. He thought the case of the manufacturers of Birmingham entitled to peculiar attention.
Mr. Broughamobserved, that the figure of speech in which the right hon. gentleman had indulged, and which remained uncontradicted, had created a most melancholy impression.
Mr. Baringfelt convinced that the expressions had been used; but from the manner in which the right hon. gentleman received those who waited upon him on business, he was convinced that there was no intention to insult or offend. He expressed his hope that the grievous complaints of the numerous petitioners, who had resorted to the House for redress, would be most seriously considered.
Mr. Lytteltonsuggested, that if the right hon. gentleman could not deny the precise expression, at least he could disclaim the policy which might be supposed to dictate it.
Lord Millonobjected to the words, as containing a comment on the system government intended to pursue with regard to the Orders in Council.
Mr. Roseobserved, that to-morrow would be the more fit time for the explanation required.
The Petition was then brought up, and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners have been credibly informed, and do believe that the right hon. George Rose did lately, in a conference between his Majesty's Chancellor of the Exchequer and certain master manufacturers of the town of Birmingham, compare the situation of the people of England and France to that of two men holding their heads in a vessel of water, and trying which can longest endure the pain
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of suffocation; and that the petitioners cannot, without great alarm, hear of this type or comparison as illustrating the effects of a war which his Majesty's ministers have from time to time promised to terminate, by the subjugation and restraint of France; and that, though the above-mentioned comparison too aptly typifies the condition of the petitioners, all whose means of livelihood are alarmingly curtailed by the events of war, and by the process of taxation, and many of whom are reduced to the extreme of want, it is by no means applicable to the right hon. George Rose, and divers others similarly circumstanced, who, by the emoluments of the offices which they hold under government, and the possession of considerable pensions and salaries of sinecure places, are much at their ease in the midst of public calamity; and praying the House to pass a Bill for appropriating, during the future continuance of the war, the salaries of all sinecure offices, and all unmerited and extravagant pensions, to public purposes, which Bill, the petitioners humbly conceive, by tending in a degree to equalize the pressure of the times, will at once tranquillize the general feeling, and accelerate to this country the acquisition of the blessings of peace."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

DEFAULTERS' NAMES CALLED OVER—AND A MEMBER ORDERED INTO CUSTODY.
The order of the day for attendance of the several members who had not appeared to the Call of the House being read, the names of several members were called over, who answered in their places, and were excused. On the name of the right hon. William Fitzgerald being called, he did not appear, and the Speaker enquired whether any member had been requested to answer for the right hon. member's absence.
Mr. Polesaid, that he believed the right hon. member was in Ireland.
General Mathewsaid, that he did not at all doubt but that the right hon. gentleman was in Ireland, where, during the discussion of the late important question, he ought not to have been. He expressed his hope, that the House would not excuse the absence of the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Ellisonthought the hon. general might have been a little more lenient in his observations.
General Mathewdid not understand why the right hon. gentleman should have

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been allowed to fight shy of the Catholic question. Notwithstanding what had been said by the hon. gentleman opposite, he still hoped the right hon. member would not be excused.
Sir W. W. Wynndid not see there was even a pretence laid before the House for the absence of the right hon. member. He should move. That he be taken into the custody of the Serjeant at Arms.
Mr. Polerose again and said, he was absolutely certain that the right hon. gentleman would have been in his place had he not met with some unforeseen accident. However, he confessed that he had received no letter from the right hon. member.
Mr. Edenurged the propriety of the motion.
Mr. R. Warddeprecated the harshness with which the gentlemen opposite seemed to wish to have the right hon. member treated. He should move an amendment to the motion, That the right hon. gentleman be ordered to attend in his place on this day se'nnight.
Mr. Herbertopposed the amendment. The right hon. member had appeared in his place almost every day until the approach of the Catholic question.
Mr. Brandexpected that the right hon. gentleman opposite, who had moved the call of the House, would have been the first to move the right hon. member into custody. As to the amendment, there was not the least doubt but that the right hon. member would be in his place on that day se'nnight. He was one of the lords of the Treasury, and materially connected with Ireland; and he certainly knew not why the presence of such a member should not have been enforced on the important question lately under consideration. If the House had the least regard for its dignity, it must order the right hon. member into custody.
The Speakerthen put the question, and as the House was about to divide, Mr. Ward withdrew his amendment, and the original motion was carried in the affirmative.

VOTE OF THANKS TO THE EARL OF WELLINGTON, &C. FOR THE CAPTURE OF BADAJOZ.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose to move the Thanks of the House to the earl of Wellington, and the army under his command——
Lord Miltonspoke to order; he wished to know from the chair, whether this was
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not a day in which orders took precedence of notices?
The Speakersaid, that questions of thanks to our fleets or armies always were allowed to take precedence of every other business.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthen spoke to the following effect:—Sir, from the opportunity which on former occasions I have had of collecting the sentiments of the House on the course of proceeding with respect to questions similar to that which I am about to submit to their consideration, I agree with you. Sir, that the House will always be disposed to give to them an undoubted priority. It gratifies me, however, to be enabled to assure the noble lord, that in my view of the present subject, it will not be necessary for me to detain the House at any considerable length; anticipating as I do, the unanimous concurrence of all who hear me, in the motion with which I shall have the honour to conclude. Sir, I have so frequently, during the short period of the last eighteen months, had the happiness to submit to this House a motion similar to the present, that I am justified, from my experience on those occasions, in confidently expecting that not a single dissenting voice will be raised against my present proposition. We may differ in opinion. Sir, on the general question of the manner in which the war on the peninsula has been conducted; we may even differ in opinion on the probable effect of the late or of any other splendid achievement of our brave troops—but it is impossible that we should differ in opinion on the able conduct of our general, and on the gallantry of our officers and men, with reference to the recent occurrrence, in which these qualities have been so successfully and so gloriously exhibited. The House will recollect that at no great distance of time antecedent to the late distinguished achievement, the capture of Ciudad Rodrigo took place. Immediately after that capture, lord Wellington meditated the direction of his forces toward" that fortress, the acquisition of which it is now our object to acknowledge. The arrangements for that purpose were made with great expedition by the noble and gallant lord during the time that he kept his head-quarters; and so completely were the enemy deceived by the celerity and the secrecy of those arrangements, that they were evidently unapprized of the intended movement until it was too late for

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them to entertain any hope that they might be able to collect a force adequate to the defeat of the object which the British army had in view. As soon as his preparations were complete, lord Wellington proceeded to Badajoz. He arrived at Elras on the 11th of March. On the 16th he invested Badajoz. On the 17th he broke ground, and pushed forward his operations with all the rapidity which the utmost exertions of the officers and soldiers of his brave army enabled him to do. The House are in possession of the details immediately subsequent, from the pen of the noble and gallant officer himself; and I am sure that any attempt of mine to re-state them, will but tend to weaken the effect which they are calculated to produce. It appears, however, that the fire from the second parallel opened on the 31st of March; and that practicable breaches having been effected in two of the bastions of the fortress, on the 6th, at night, lord Wellington gave orders to proceed to the storm. The plan on that occasion was, that lieutenant general Picton should attack the castle by escalade with the 3d division—that major Wilson, with a guard from the 4th division, should attack the ravelin of St. Roque; and that the hon. major general Colville at the head of the 4th division, and the light division under lieutenant colonel Barnard, should attack the breaches in the bastions. Lieutenant general Leith, with the left brigade of the division under major general Walker, was to make a false attack upon two of the out-works. This feigned attack was not expected to take effect, but directions were given to turn it into a real attack, if circumstances should prove favourable. At ten o'clock at night, the attack commenced. The exertions of the troops on that occasion were never exceeded. They had to contend against an able general, who commanded a powerful garrison, not exhausted by the casualties and privations of a long siege, but capable of making a determined resistance to their assailants, and prepared by every means to give to that resistance the best chance of success. The conflict continued for above two hours, during which period the enemy resisted with a gallantry which it is due to them to say, was as glorious as that of their assailants. It is undoubtedly true, that the assailants were exposed to infinitely greater danger; but we owe it to the enemy to acknowledge that they de-
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fended themselves with the utmost spirit and determination, and in such a manner as to produce no inconsiderable effect. While this dreadful conflict was going on in the breaches, general Picton succeeded in his escalade, and established himself in the castle Major Wilson carried the ravelin of St. Roque. Major-general Leith pushed forward major-general Walker's brigade, which converting the feigned into a real attack, and aided by the 38th regiment, and the 15th Portuguese regiment, forced the barrier on the road of Olivença, and escaladed the bastion of St. Vicente. Our troops being thus established in the castle, which commands all the works of the town, and the 4th light division being formed again for the attack of the breaches, all resistance ceased, and at day-light next morning, an unconditional surrender took place. Sir, in calling the attention of the House to these gallant and distinguished exploits, it is impossible for me not to advert to the loss which our brave army sustained. The House must be aware, however, that in the attack by storm of such a fortress as Badajoz, the loss must certainly be severe. The House must also be aware, how important it was to lose no time in the achievement of the object. If we consider the advance of Soult, with a view to attempt the relief of Badajoz, we may easily conceive, that had the assault been delayed, in order to render the breaches more practicable, a much heavier loss might have been sustained by the double effort that would then have been necessary to repel the advancing army on the one hand, and to reduce the fortress on the other. Sir, I shall forbear from dwelling, with particular distinction, on the names of any of the gallant officers who acquitted themselves so nobly in this most brilliant affair, because they are so numerous, the instances of heroic gallantry were so general (as, indeed, the list of casualties but too sufficiently testifies), that it would be in vain for me to attempt to do justice to all, and I am unwilling, by omitting any, to expose myself to the charge of invidiousness. I conceive that the House must be fully impressed with the importance of this operation. What the ultimate result may be, it is impossible accurately to predict; but there is every reason to believe that the British movement towards Badajoz, attracting the notice of marshal Soult, gave to the Spaniards in the south of Spain, the means of approaching Seville,

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and there can be little doubt but to this circumstance, general Ballasleros is indebted for the opportunity of marching into Seville, in consequence of the destitute state of defence into which it necessarily fell. I repeat, Sir, that it is impossible to anticipate the consequences of all these proceedings, but I feel justified in auguring most favourably from them, and in cherishing the expectation that they will be productive in the south of Spain of events in the highest degree auspicious to the common cause. The House and the country will, I trust, find some consolation for the severe loss which this glorious acquisition has occasioned, in the important effect which it is calculated to produce on the character, and probable result, of the awful contest in which we are engaged. It is but just that we should express the gratitude which we feel to those by whom such great national advantages have been obtained; and I therefore move you, Sir, in the first instance, "That the Thanks of this House be given to general the earl of Wellington, for the great ability and military skill manifested by him in the recent siege of Badajoz, by which that important fortress has been wrested from the possession of the enemy."
The question being put from the chair,
Lord Miltonrose to set himself right with the House. When he got up before, his intention was by no means to oppose the vote of thanks.
General Tarletonwas of opinion that this last exploit of lord Wellington had done great honour to himself and the British army. Under all the circumstances, he believed that no general in the universe but himself would have attempted the capture of Badajoz; and that no troops in the universe but British, would have succeeded in that attempt.
Colonel Dillonwas a little apprehensive that the results in the south of Spain expected from the capture of Badajoz might not come to pass so easily as was expected.
Sir Joseph Yorkedid not think that the motion went far enough in rewarding the illustrious commander of the army in Spain. He was of opinion, that the highest dignity the country had to bestow would fall short of rewarding his merits. Why should not the gallant commander have a marshall's staff, and be put at the head of the military administration of the country?
General Mathewsaid, that he scarcely ever offered himself to the House with more pleasure than on the present occa-
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sion, concurring as he did for the first time, and probably for the last, with the right hon. gentleman who made the motion. He had also to offer his humble thanks to the right hon. gentleman the Speaker, for permitting him to speak on this occasion; a permission, by the bye, which he was unfortunate enough to be unable to obtain during a late important debate, when he was most anxious to deliver his sentiments. He repeated that he was most happy to concur in the present motion of the right hon. gentleman, because it was a grateful duty to add his weak praises to the general voice of applause, because nothing could give him more pleasure than to speak the eulogy of many dear friends and countrymen who had fallen on this glorious occasion. He agreed with the gallant admiral that the motion did not go far enough. He would not attempt to recapitulate the exploits, or to count the glories of lord Wellington: they were known to his country—they were felt by Europe—they were bright before the world, and would retain a splendour lasting to all time. It was sufficient to say, that he had been victorious wherever honour and his country called him; and that, like Marlborough, he had never been beaten. To no general was lord Wellington second, and almost all had he surpassed. Was it not therefore right, that this conspicuous man,—this man so gifted by nature, and so favoured by fortune—should by his country be pre-eminently distinguished? Was it not right that his gallant array, of whom he was not more the commander, than the father and the friend, should through him be magnificently rewarded? To this army, which so adored and idolized their "commander, the country owed much; and how could that debt better be discharged than by dignifying to the utmost extent that commander? He would recommend the same measures to be adopted towards lord Wellington, as had been taken with respect to lord Nelson. The navy felt itself identified with lord Nelson; and the army would, he was sure, feel itself raised by every elevation of their chief. It was a source of considerable satisfaction to himself, that about 20 years ago, he had served in the same regiment with lord Wellington; and the noble lord had since gained no victory in which he did not sympathise, nor gathered a laurel for his brow which he did not delight to see him wear. But there was a trait in the character of

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lord Wellington which ought not to be hidden from the public sight. When he quitted his military pursuits, and retired to his native country in a civil capacity, it was highly to his honour to say, that though he differed in politics from the majority of his countrymen, he was universally beloved. The frankness of his disposition, and the openness of his heart, recommended him to the unsophisticated simplicity and the generous feelings of his countrymen; and when he gave up his civil situation, it ought to be remembered, that he did not load himself with sinecures as the price of his services,—that he had no 1,500 l. a year bestowed upon him,—that he never got places abolished while others possessed them, and afterwards had these places re-established for the purpose of filling them himself. It ought to be remembered, that he did none of these things; but be knew a Secretary of Ireland who was not altogether so scrupulous,—a Secretary whose whole life had been a scene of political servility;—a Secretary, who—
Mr. R. Wardhere called the hon. general to order; and insisted, that in deviating to the abuse of any member, he was departing from the motion before the House.
General Mathewacknowledged he had been a little out of order. All he had to say further, and indeed it was for that he rose, was, that he considered the motion did not go far enough. His opinions were those of the gallant admiral.
Mr. Whitshed Keenespoke in favour of the motion. and dwelt particularly on the merits of lord Wellington in the commissariat department of his army.
The motion was agreed to nem. con.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthen moved, "That the Thanks of this House be given to lieut.-general sir William Carr Beresford, K. B., lieut.-gen. James Leith, lieut.-general Thomas Picton, major-gen. the hon. Charles Stewart, major-general the hon. Charles Colville, major-general Barnard ford Bowes, major-general Andrew Hay, major-general George Townshend Walker, and major-general James Kempt, and likewise to brigadier-general William Maundy Harvey, brigadier-general Champlemond, and brigadier-general Manley Power, of the Portuguese service, for their distinguished exertions during the recent siege of Badajoz, which was so gloriously terminated by the successful assault of that important fortress in the night of the 6th instant."
Mr. C. W. Wynndid not rise for the purpose of disturbing the unanimity of the vote upon this occasion. He wished merely to remark, that a practice had been lately, since the battle of Talavera, adopted, of not publishing the list of killed and wounded officers sufficiently early after receiving the dispatches. He conceived it was only necessary to state this circumstance to have it redressed. The general opinion, he believed, was, that the publication of the Extraordinary Gazette was purposely postponed to a late hour, to prevent its being copied into the evening papers. However it might happen, in his opinion the list of killed and wounded officers should be immediately struck off, at least as soon after receiving the dispatch as possible, that those persons who had relations in the engagement might receive the earliest information of their fate. On the late occasion the Extraordinary Gazette was published at so late an hour that many persons could not send it by the post that evening.
Lord Castlereaghsaid he would make every enquiry into the circumstance mentioned by the hon. and learned gentleman, It was, in his opinion, desirable that the lists of killed and wounded officers should be made out with all possible accuracy, which necessarily required some considerable time.
Mr. Gilesobserved, that the Gazette was ill the hands of many persons in public offices so early as half past two and three o'clock: the public, however, had great difficulty in getting it at seven o'clock. Some unaccountable delay must have taken place in the publication.
Sir Mark Woodbelieved, that the list of killed and wounded was made up long before the printing of the Gazette, he had seen that list in a public room at twelve o'clock of the night on which the dispatches arrived. This circumstance, however, was probably not generally known.
Sir. W. W. Wynnobserved, that the list was published only in one evening paper; the Pilot.
The thanks were than carried, nem. con.
The Chancellor of the Exchequernext moved the Thanks of the House to the officers of the British and Portuguese forces, which was also carried nem. con.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, in rising to move That the House did highly approve and acknowledge the zeal, bravery, discipline, and humanity displayed by the non-commissioned officers and soldiers of

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the army under lord Wellington, he could not help taking notice of one circumstance which had taken place, as well at the capture of Ciudad Rodrigo, as on the late occasion, and that was the small number of killed and wounded of the enemy, and the great number of prisoners. He confessed, it did appear to him a distinguished circumstance in proof of the humanity, as well as bravery of our army, that after so bloody and obstinate a resistance, so small a number of the enemy should be killed, while upwards of 4,000 prisoners were taken.
The motion was agreed to nem. con.