Sitting of 8 April 1812

PETITIONS FROM PAISLEY, SWANSEA AND BIRMINGHAM RESPECTING THE RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
A Petition of the manufacturers merchant traders and other inhabitants of the town of Paisley, was presented and read; setting forth,
"That, as the Charter of the East India Company will expire in the course of two years, the Petitioners most respectfully presume to express their sentiments on a subject peculiarly interesting to that populous and manufacturing district of the country, and to the nation in general;
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and that, in the present depressed slate of the manufactures and commerce of that part of the United Kingdom, every measure of assistance that the House can afford ought, in the Petitioners' humble apprehension, to be manifested and exerted; and they rely, with confidence, that no considerations of a partial nature will be permitted to sacrifice and set aside their most serious and important interests; and that, in order to render such assistance effectual, it is the Petitioners' firm opinion that it is necessary and expedient to discontinue the commercial monopoly of the East India Company, on the expiration of their existing Charter, as thereby new and extensive markets will be opened for reception of British manufactures, which will render this country more independent of all commercial relations with the continent of Europe, and contribute to the increase of the financial resources of the empire; and that the present monopoly of the East India Company affords renewed evidence of the injurious consequences attendant upon exclusive traffic; the capital of the country, which might be beneficially embarked in trade to the East, is locked up, and thousands, who find no employment under the present narrowed system, might be actively engaged in a free and unfettered commerce: the existing monopoly too is attended with this singular and unaccountable peculiarity, that privileges are conceded to, and lucratively enjoyed by, neutral nations, which are absolutely denied to, and rigorously withheld from, the merchants of the British empire; and that the example afforded by the citizens of the United States of America must remove any doubt which can be entertained regarding the competency of British individuals to carry on an extensive commerce to the East Indies, China, and the other countries comprehended in the Charter of the East India Company; and that every port of the United Kingdom ought to be allowed the advantages of foreign trade; and that it would be unjust to confine in future the commerce of the East to the port of London; and praying the House to adopt measures for the abolition of the commercial monopoly of the East India Company, at the expiration of their present Charter."
A Petition of the merchants, manufacturers, and other inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Swansea, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the Petitioners are sensibly impressed with the conviction that extensive and perpetual monopolies, such as have been for a long time enjoyed by the East India Company, are unjust in their principles, and mischievous in their effects; and that the Petitioners feel, at this time, when they are nearly precluded from any trade with the continent of Europe, that it becomes essentially necessary that the merchants and manufacturers of this kingdom should look to new sources for a vent for their respective commodities; and it appears to the Petitioners that no country holds out such an extensive market as India and the various other regions now shut to the nation at large by the East India Charter, although foreign nations, in amity with Great Britain, are permitted to trade with them; and that, by throwing open the trade of those countries, now monopolized by the East India Company, the Petitioners hope and expect they may be able essentially to increase the manufacture of copper, which, for a long time past, has been the great source of the prosperity of the town of Swansea and its neighbourhood; and that the Petitioners look up, with confidence, to the House, as their representatives and natural protectors; and they indulge a most sanguine hope that the House will not suffer their serious and weighty interests to be sacrificed to any partial considerations, but will adopt the necessary measures for the total abolition of the commercial monopoly of the East India Company at the expiration of their present Charter."
An Address and Petition of the merchants, manufacturers, and other inhabitants of the town of Birmingham, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the Petitioners contemplate, with deep concern, the present state of the manufactures and commerce of the United Kingdom, which, whilst it grievously afflicts the merchants and manufacturers, threatens to spread general discontent throughout the country; and that, whilst the Petitioners are determined to bear every burthen, and to make ever sacrifice, rather than compromise the security or honour of their country, yet they feel it is their duty to inform the House of the distressed situation of the great body of the labouring, mechanics, particularly in that important manufacturing district of which the, town of Birmingham may be considered the centre, and to claim for
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them and for themselves every measure of assistance that the House can give; and that, as an efficient measure of this nature, the Petitioners are of opinion, that it is expedient to discontinue the commercial monopoly of the East India Company at the expiration of their present charter; and the Petitioners firmly believe that, by the abolition of the East India monopoly, new and extensive markets will necessarily be opened for British manufactures, which will render this country more independent of all commercial relations with the continent of Europe than it bas hitherto been, and cannot fail materially to increase the naval strength and financial resources of the empire; and that the Petitioners are of opinion that this abolition is not more called for by the distresses of the merchants and manufacturers of the United Kingdom than it is by justice and reason, and the general interest of the whole body of the British people; and that the Petitioners forbear to enlarge upon the decrease of the trade of the East India Company, notwithstanding the great increase of their territorial possessions; they forbear also to enlarge upon the increase which has taken place in the trade carried on by foreign individuals, who have engrossed into their hands so great a proportion of the whole commerce of the East, knowing, as the Petitioners do, that all these facts are before the House, and not doubting that they will give to them that deliberate consideration, which their great importance demands; and that the Petitioners look up, with confidence, to the House, as their representatives and: natural protectors; and they do indulge a most confident hope, that the House will not suffer their serious and weighty interests.; to be sacrificed to any partial considerations; and praying, that the House will adopt the necessary measures for the total abolition of the commercial monopoly of the East India Company at the expiration of their present Charter; but in the event of the House seeing reasons to continue, in some degree, a commercial monopoly to the East India Company, the Petitioners do then most earnestly implore that they will not suffer it to deprive British subjects of any privileges which are allowed to neutral nations, and that the Charter may be made subject to such modifications and conditions as may best promote the commerce and manufactures of the United Kingdom, leaving open to the capital the enterprise and the industry of British mer-

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chants, all the islands of the Indian ocean, together with such parts of the continents of Asia and Africa, as to the wisdom of the House may seem expedient."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

CAPTURE OF CIUDAD RODRIGO.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that since the Vote of Thanks had been passed in that House to the officers and men who assisted at the capture of Ciudad Rodrigo, he had learned that the names of major-general Henry Frederick Campbell, major-general the hon. Charles William Stewart, major-general Baron Low, major-general James Kemmis, major-general William Borthwick, and colonel William Maundy Harvey, brigadier-general in the Portuguese service, were omitted in the said motion; he therefore moved the like thanks to them; which was agreed to.

EXPORTATION OF IRISH SPIRITS.
The House having gone into a committee of the whole House, to consider of the Exportation of Spirits from Ireland,
Mr. Wellesley Polesaid, that he rose for the purpose of moving a Resolution to prevent the exportation of spirits made from grain in Ireland, for a time to be limited. The object of the Resolution was to prevent the exportation of Irish made spirits to foreign markets, in consequence of the high price of provisions in Ireland at the present period. In considering the situation of that country, there were but four measures which suggested themselves for adoption. The first was, to prevent the intercourse between this country and Ireland; the second, to stop the distillation from grain in Ireland; the third, to stop the export of grain from Ireland for the supply of our armies; and the fourth was that, which he felt it his duty to recommend to the committee, as there were many objections to each of the others, which he was persuaded, many gentlemen would concur in thinking sufficient to prevent their being resorted to. The measure now submitted to the committee was unquestionably a smaller evil than any other, and was nothing more than stopping the exuberant grain of the country from being converted into spirits, in order to be sent abroad—he was aware, at the same time, that it would create a considerable disappointment to many meritorious persons in Ireland—he meant those distillers, who by their exertions, had established a beneficial trade to Portugal
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and other places, but he trusted that their good sense would show them that this measure was resorted to, to beat down the high price of provisions, and to prevent the distress which arose from that circumstance. He hoped, therefore, that this proposition would be found effectual when coupled with some others which he would have to propose, but if he should be disappointed, it then would be time enough to adopt some other mode of proceeding. The time to which he proposed to limit the operation of the Bill which he proposed to bring in, was the 31st of December, and it would be modelled in the same manner as the Bill for prohibiting distillation from grain in England, but it would vest in the Lord Lieutenant a power to permit the exportation of grain after the 1st of October, if he should deem it expedient, or to continue the provisions of the Bill for 40 days after the opening of the next session of parliament. It was also his purpose that the measure should commence from this day, as otherwise large quantities of corn might be sent out of the country before the Bill could take effect, but care would be taken to prevent any injury being sustained by any individual, as he proposed to empower the commissioners of the revenue in Ireland to hear any case and grant such redress as they might think just. He concluded by moving, "That it is expedient to suspend, from and after the 8th day of April 1812, for a time to be limited, the exportation from Ireland to parts beyond the seas, spirits made or distilled in that part of the United Kingdom from corn or grain."
Mr. Stewartsaid, that the object in view would, in his opinion, be better promoted, by the stoppage of distillation from grain altogether, and it would, besides, mark the attention of the Irish government to the wants of the people.
Mr. Curwenthought it surprising that government did not go into a general consideration of the resources of the country with respect to its supplies of corn, after the quantity that was annually imported, He thought that a rise on the price of grain would insure a constant supply, and two bushels more on the acre through the country would give an abundance. Ministers should have a more accurate view of the whole agriculture of the country, and would by that means have it in their power to adopt some general measure instead of those temporary expedients now resorted to. He wished to God, for the

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sake of the health and morals of the people, that an additional duty was laid on spirits, which would oblige them to make use of the wholesome and nutritious beverage of porter.
Mr. Shawof Dublin said, that it was impossible for him to allow this measure to go forward, without entering his protest against what was likely to prove so injurious to the whole body of the distillers of Ireland. It would; in the first place, throw a great superabundance of spirits into the country; and in the next place, he thought they should be very cautious how they interrupted a trade which was likely to be so beneficial. Another measure offered itself, which, he thought, would have a better effect; namely, the stopping of distillation after a certain time. It was to be considered too, that large contracts had been entered into, and this measure would throw a damp on all enterprise or speculation, for which reasons he felt it his duty to dissent from the Resolution.
Sir John Newportsaid, that no man could more heartily concur in any measure, which appeared likely to obviate the difficulties or distresses of the people than himself, but he could not help considering the present as inefficacious. Some documents should be before the House to enable them to form a correct judgment, and to make it manifest that there was no danger from illicit distillation. The right hon. mover had last night stated from the commissariat returns, the prices infinitely lower than the market prices in the adjoining district, which was certainly no great proof of their accuracy. He was far from wishing to oppose the present measure, except on the ground that it led the House to suppose that they had applied a remedy, where, in truth, they had not. If the prohibition of distillation from corn took place, there would be no suffering, because the distillation in a great measure took place from raw com, which could be brought to market, and was still applicable to other purposes.
Mr. Parnellsaid, he concurred in opinion with the hon. member for Dublin, that this measure would not diminish the consumption of grain in the distilleries, but alone injure the distiller. The right hon. gentleman had wholly omitted, in his opening statement, to shew in what manner it would realize the declared object of it. For his part, it seemed to be quite plain, that the distilleries being compelled
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by law to work oft nearly as much spirits as it was in their power to make, the same quantity would continue to be made—and that the only result of the Bill would be, to lower the price of spirits in the home market, by shutting up the foreign one. The right hon. gentleman had stated very candidly, that his principal object was to allay the apprehensions which prevailed; but if he really believed that those apprehensions were groundless, he should abstain from a measure which must injure the distillers. He ought to remember that they have necessarily purchased grain at the late very high prices, calculating on being able to obtain a sufficient recompence, by fulfilling the orders they had received for sending spirits abroad—and that, if this vent is taken from them, they will probably sustain a very heavy loss. He ought also to recollect, that if such loss can alone be attributable to the interference of parliament, they will have a just claim upon parliament for an adequate compensation. The right hon. gentleman should also consider, that his measure will deprive Ireland of the benefit of a newly established trade, which promised to be of the greatest advantage to her—for it could not be expected, that the distillers would again undertake all the risk and expence of retaining their trade, if the just reward of their skill and industry was thus suddenly and capriciously taken from them. At the same time, the hon. member begged the committee would not suppose, from these observations, that he, as others did, wished the government to stop the distilleries altogether—on the contrary, he gave credit to them for the accuracy of the statement of the quantity of provisions in the country, and believed that it was altogether unnecessary for them to interfere.
Mr. W. Polereplied to the different objections urged against the proposed measure, many of which he was quite surprised to hear. It was said that no relief would follow, as the quantity exported was not so great as to cause any difference in the price of corn; but be could state, that the quantity exported had been from 1–4th to 1–5th of the whole quantity of spirits distilled in Ireland; and it had been increasing during the last six months. He was not so sanguine as to expect all the relief he wished from this measure; but it was a little unfair to say that it was absurd on the face of it—One hon. gentleman had spoken of it as unjust to the

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distillers, but parliament was not bound to consider the interest of a certain number of individuals at the expence of the community. He spoke also of not opening the distilleries so soon; but government could not be expected to adopt what would prove injurious to the revenue. As to the contracts entered into by the distillers, the very moment the law passed, it would operate in bar of any demands against the distillers; and if that was not the case, he was prepared to bring in a clause to secure them in this respect, as it was not his wish to take any unfair advantage of the distillers.
Mr. Grattansaid, that when the question was, whether distillation or exportation should be prohibited, he thought the milder method should be first tried. It was bad policy to make the agricultural system depend on caprice or change of circumstances, unless there was a pressing necessity for it. He agreed, that in the present case, something mutt be done, and he therefore gave his assent to the milder measure as an experiment.
The Resolution was then agreed to.

DUTY ON IRISH SPIRITS.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means,
Mr. Wellesley Polesaid, that the first Resolution he should have to propose to the Committee, was for laying an additional duty of 2s. 6d. a gallon on Irish made spirits, thereby doubling the duty now paid. Two objects would be promoted by this—the relief of the brewing trade in Ireland, which, according to the Report of the Committee that sat last year, was necessary, as the extensive use of spirits, inconsequence of illicit distillation, had very much increased, and thereby the health, morals, and industry of the people were materially affected; and they gave it as their opinion, that the first opportunity should be made use of to lay an additional duty on spirits, in order to render their consumption less general. Another object which would be promoted by this additional duty, was, the assistance it would give towards effecting the measure he had proposed. The duty now proposed, was higher than had ever been paid; for though a higher duty had been laid on before, it had never taken effect, in consequence of the stoppage of distillation. That duty was 6s. 3d. the present would be 5s. 10 d. including the malt duty which was larger than had ever been col-
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lected on spirits distilled from corn. He knew that the objection hitherto was the danger of illicit distillation; but he trusted that would be found to be considerably diminished, in consequence of the measures which had been adopted last year: for by a comparison of the returns made up to the last assizes with those of the last three years, up to the 29th of September, of the number of stills seized, and of prosecutions for illicit distillation, it appeared that they amounted to two-thirds more in the last year than in any former one. In addition to the measures adopted, the permission to small stills to distil would be very efficacious, and would make it unnecessary to resort to those severe and harassing laws which had been suspended for two years, and which he intended to move for the repeal of in the course of this session. He had to observe that the duty in the present case was to be laid only on the stock in hand. He then concluded by moving—" That it is the opinion of this committee, that from and after the 8th day of April, there be laid on every gallon of strong water or spirits made in Ireland a duty of 2s. 6d. per gallon in addition to the duty now paid."
Sir John Newportwas extremely happy to see the present motion brought forward, and thought there was no sacrifice which ought not to be made to the great object of preventing the excessive use of spirits among the lower orders in Ireland. He hoped a full and fair trial would be given to the augmented duty.
Mr. Grattansaid, that he perfectly concurred in the present measure, which went to prevent the sacrifice of the health and morals of human creatures to the benefit of the revenue. He hoped this measure would increase the consumption of malt liquor, which was so much more wholesome. He considered the low price of spirits in Ireland, the cause of their excessive use, rather than any disposition in the people to intemperance. This duty would go to correct that evil, and he had not any doubt that it would be followed up.
Mr. Parnellsaid he concurred in the general principle on which this duty was proposed; but he was apprehensive, that illicit distillation was not yet sufficiently put down to warrant so large an addition. He had had the means of ascertaining, beyond all doubt, that the illicit trade was still going on without interruption over immense districts of that country; and that

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being the case, the additional duty would neither diminish the consumption of grain, or augment the revenues; because it could only operate as a bounty on illicit trade, and the production of spirits run at a cheaper rate than they can be made under the existing duty. He had hoped the right hon. gentleman in proposing a new duty on this most important branch of the Irish Revenue, would have taken a more comprehensive view of the subject than he had done. That he would have stated to the House, that the abuses which had been proved to exist by the commissioners of enquiry in the collection of this duty, had been put an end to. That he would have explained in what manner so great a defalcation as two millions a year, which they had established to have taken place, was in future to be prevented. For unless some better system of collection was resorted to, it was in vain to expect any produce from any additional duty. For, his part, he never could think that any branch of the Irish revenue would be productive, so long as the whole of the revenue patronage was in the hands of the executive government. It was impossible the several boards of revenue could enforce a due discharge of duty on the part of the officers under them, so long as every situation was filled up by the lord lieutenant without communication with them, or any consideration of the fitness of the individuals appointed to them. This was not the practice in England; here every board appointed its own officers, and accordingly they felt themselves responsible for the efficient collection of the revenue, and did collect it. Till the same practice was established in Ireland, the taxes would never produce what they ought to yield, nor can there be the smallest prospect of getting over the embarrassments to which the Irish finances at present are subject.
Mr. W. Poleshortly replied, and stated the average quantity of spirits exported from Ireland was between one fourth and fifth of the whole.
The Resolution was then put and carried.

PEASANTRY OF IRELAND.
Earl Stanhopeadverted to the situation of the peasantry of Ireland, who, he stated, were by the operation of the by the laws (as was also sometimes the case in this country) compelled to pay rent two, three or four times over. For the purpose of relieving them from this distressing situation he had prepared a Bill, which he proposed to present to their lordships tomorrow se'nnight; and therefore moved, that the lords be summoned for that day.—Ordered.

TOLERATION.
Earl Stanhopealso observed, that he wished to call their lordships' attention to another very important subject. With respect to persons holding certain religious tenets, there were two opinions, the one that they should be admitted to hold civil offices, and the other that they should be disqualified from holding offices; but both parties were agreed in the justice of toleration. Upon this latter point, however, in consequence of some recent circumstances, many Protestant Dissenters, and even some members of the established Church, were liable to much oppression, to relieve them from which, he had also prepared a Bill, but thought it better not to name a day for

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presenting it until after the discussion on the claims of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Ireland.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
The Earl of Liverpoolpresented a petition from the magistrates and council of Paisley, praying for the opening of the East India trade, which was ordered to lie on the table.
The Earl of Lauderdalegave notice of a motion for tomorrow, for the Correspondence between the Directors of the East India Company and government respecting the renewal of the Charter, and also for certain papers respecting the transfer of the troops of the East India Company to government in 1794.

BANK OF ENGLAND.
The Earl of Lauderdale,after adverting to the Bill now in progress in the House of Commons, relative to Bank notes, also gave notice of his intention to move for information which he considered of the utmost importance with a view to that Bill, in order to ascertain the profits made by the Bank of England since 1797, by those measures which had brought distress on the rest of the country. His object was to have an account of the price of Bank Stock in 1797, and the average price in every half year since; the increase of dividends to the proprietors of Bank Stock during the same period; and the amount of bonusses granted to the same proprietors, during the same period. He believed it would be found, that the Bank of England had derived additional, profit of 15 or 16 millions by these measures, by the operation of which the rest of the country had been so much distressed.