Sitting of 27 May 1811

EAST INDIA BOARD OFFICERS SALARIES BILL.
The Report of this Bill was-brought up.
Mr. Creeveysaid, he rose to object to this Bill, in its present state, to that part of it at least that related the increase of salary to the President of the Board of Controul. By the act of 1793, that act under which the East India Company now hold their charter, 16,000 l. per annum was set apart out of the East India Company's funds as a provision for the Board of Controul; of this sum, 5,000 l. was to be distributed at the pleasure of the crown between the President of the Board and two commissioners, and the remaining 11,000 l. was to be applied in payment of Secretaries and clerks. The present Bill, said the hon. gent. is amongst other things to increase this sum of 10,000 l. to 22,000 l. for the purpose, as is said, of increasing the salary as well of the President as of the inferior clerks. The distribution of the 5,000 l. under the act of 1793, has hitherto always been 2,000 l. per annum to the President, and 1,500 l. per annum to each of the Commissioners. The present President of the Board of Controul says this sum of 2,000 l. is too little for him, and he wants more. My answer to him always has been, and now is—I admit you are ill paid, compared with the two commissioners, because the whole business is done by you, and they do nothing; their places are perfect sinecures—there never has been such a thing as a Board held since the first institution in 1784, and therefore let the crown, in the just exercise of its discretion, give you a greater proportion of the 5,000 l. than it hitherto has done, and the commissioners less; the fund is perfectly adequate, considering always that the commissioners do nothing. The history of this Board of Controul is really curious enough. When Mr. Pitt-first introduced it to public notice in 1784, he bestowed upon it this flattering description.: he said—" It was intended that the Board should consist of none but privy counsellors; but the Board should create no increase of officers, nor impose any

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new burdens, since he trusted there could be found persons enough who held offices of large emolument but no great employment, whose leisure would amply allow of their undertaking the duty in question." This romantic system of the gratuitous government of India by the sinecure men, lasted till 1793, when lord Melville not only made a provision for himself as president of the Board of Controul, but to make up for lost time and past errors, he created those two new parliamentary sinecures, called the Junior Commissioners for managing the affairs of India. The present Bill is a still further improvement of the present president of the Board of Controul upon the act of his noble relation. He wants his own salary raised, but he will not let us touch his sinecure commissioners. One should have supposed he would have been the last man in the country to quarrel with the existing act, considering it was made by his father, and particularly as he himself had given notice of the termination of it, and of an early discussion of the whole subject. As however the right hon. gent. is evidently above such trifling considerations as those, he puts us upon investigating his own claims to further remuneration; he is the first public claimant for an increase of salary in this office, and if I compare him with a noble lord (Castlereagh) who held this office before him, and who made no such claim, there can be no comparison of what might have been the justice of the claims of lord Castlereagh compared with the right hon. gent. The noble lord held this office longer than the right hon. gent. has done. He had filled a great situation in the state for some time before; the right hon. gent. has made his first appearance as an officer of the state in his present situation. The noble lord, as the Indian minister, used to lay his views annually before this House in what is called an Indian Budget, an operation of at least great labour if not of great public benefit, whereas the right hon. gent. has very happily relieved himself from this part of his official duty, by never saying a single word upon the subject; and then to conclude the comparison, the noble lord held no other office that I know of, whereas the right hon. gent. has the consolation of enjoying a sinecure place in Scotland of 2,000 l per annum and upwards. Considering therefore, all the circumstances of the case, I think the right hon. gent. fails in making out any urgent claim upon our
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justice. How, then, does he stand as to any appeal to our compassion? Why, really, considering that he now has his pay as president 2,000 l. per annum, and his sinecure in Scotland of 2,000 l. more, considering that lord Melville has one pension from the East India Company of 2,000 l. per annum, another from the crown of 1,500 l. per annum, that he has in addition to these pensions a sinecure of 3,500 l. per annum, making between the father and son 11,000 l. per annum; considering all this, and above all considering that the family first embarked in public life in the gratuitous line, they may at least be said not to have done much, and that no case of real distress is at all made out by the right hon. president.—The hon. gent. said, perhaps he entertained more jealousy of the right hon. president on these subjects than others did, and it was owing to his having had occasion before now to look after him; some time since he found that the right hon. president had got very comfortably settled in an excellent house, for which 9 or 10,000 l. of the public money had been given, that he was living in it, rent-free, and that he was pleased very humourously to call it, the official residence of the president of the Board of Controul; upon further inquiry he found that this house had long been a great favourite in the right hon. gentleman's family, that lord Melville had himself selected it as a hand-some piece of attention to be paid him by the India Company in the shape of a conveyance of fee in return for his gratuitous government of India; and this plan was only defeated by some mischievous persons in the court of proprietors. The right hon. gent. when he succeeded to the office, held formerly by his noble relation, succeeded likewise to the passion entertained by him for this house; and, as he said before had actually shewn address enough to get possession of it at one time. Now the only use he meant to make of this fact was this, namely, to impress upon the House, that when they have any thing to do with the right hon. gent. as a claimant for remuuneration of his own services, though he has had barely the experience of four years' official labours, yet in the appreciation of an adequate reward for them, he would be found to be a very considerable artist. Under all the circumstances of the case, he hoped the right hon. gent. would excuse him for now attempting to separate him from the society of the

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clerks in this Bill, by moving to expunge all that related to his own increase of pay, and next year he might appear again with at least as much dignity, and with more propriety on the part of the House, when the institution of the Board of Controul itself and all relating to it were to come under public consideration.
Lord Castlereagh,as he had been alluded to by the hon. gent. thought it proper to state, that before leaving office he had recommended that the salaries of the president and other officers of the Board of Controul should be put on a more respectable footing, and that he considered the public service materially interested in this augmentation of salary.
Mr. R. Dundassaid, he did not conceive himself at present called on to enter into any of the personal allusions of the hon. gent. He, for himself, should never have thought of bringing forward the present Bill, had his own interest alone been concerned, bat he was called upon to do so for the sake of others, whose interests were also concerned in it, at the suggestions of those who were interested in the permanent respectability of that department of the public service.
Mr. Calcraftdid not very well understand what the right hon. gent. meant by being compelled by others to bring forward a Bill for his own benefit, He, for one, was persuaded that all the great offices under government should be provided with ample salaries, and he was sensible that many of the salaries were by no means adequate; and had this very office of President of the Board of Controul been in the hands of any other person than the right hon. gent., he should have willingly consented to have the salary increased; but when he considered that this increase was called for at a period of peculiar national distress, and that the right hon. gent. enjoyed already a sinecure office to a considerable amount, and when he considered what, in his mind, was conclusive with respect to the present period, that claims of the greatest importance had been postponed, the claims of the officers of the army and navy, of those men who were employed in the most efficient service of the state, who had the most undeniable right of preference, he could not consent to the present augmentation. He thought it was by no means judicious to agree to the augmentation, without previously going into a more extensive inquiry; for be was not only satisfied that the salaries
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of the Board of Controul were great, but were equal to those of the other government offices. The Treasury, for instance, which was the most laborious office under government, except the Admiralty, had not salaries equal to the Board of Controul.
Mr. W. Adamobserved, the question whether the East India company's charter ought to be renewed, and whether the salaries of the officers of the Board of Controul were to be adequate, was perfectly distinct; and he could see no reason if these salaries were at present inadequate, why they should not be augmented. The office of the President of the Board of Controul should be made substantive, and equal in point of salary to the other great offices under government. With respect to the sinecure office which it had been said the right hon. gent. enjoyed under government, it was not properly a public sinecure, but was paid from the fees of suitors in a court of law; and it consisted with his knowledge, that it had been pledged by the right hon. gent., for the sake of defraying his father's expences at Westminster Hall.
Lord Folkestoneobserved that the right hon. gent. (Mr. Dundas) seemed to rise up in great wrath that he had been personally alluded to. The truth, was, that the present was intrinsically a personal question, and if the right hon. gent. chose to bring forward claims for remuneration of its services, it was necessary to enter into the consideration of the merits on which those claims were founded. He thought the learned gent, who spoke last had shewn a great indiscretion in alluding to the pledging of the sinecure office.
Mr. P. Mooreobjected to the principle of the Bill altogether.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerconceivedthat no real ground of objection had been stated to the increase. As the recommendation came from successive presidents of the Board, and consequently did not originate with his right hon. friend, nothing had been said to prove that it would be improper to grant the increase now.
General Tarletonexpressed his determination to vote against any increase of salary, as the claims of the officers of the army and navy were infinitely greater than the claims of civil officers. He was aware of the embarrassed situation of the country; but when ministers talked of the flourishing state of the finances, it was his duty to mention the claims of the profession to which he belonged. A right hon.

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bart. (sir J. Anstruther) had stated that they had greater incitements than the hope of pecuniary rewards.—" They, to be sure," said the honourable general, "seek the bubble reputation in the cannon's mouth;" but would it procure them wine and bread?" The right hon. bart. might talk of incitements—some incitements were laudable; lawyers would sometimes leave Westminster Hall to seek the clime of India; to toil in their avocations, under a silk palanquin, or scale the back of an elephant. They met with reward, and returned to this country enriched with the spoils of the East; but did the hon. gent. ever hear of any member of the military profession returning from the continent after the spoils of war, and the repose enjoyed on the ground under a wet blanket, enriched in purse, or with any other reward, than what he acquired by his valour? The hon. general stated his determined resolution to opposeall increase of salaries to public officers, until the claims of the army and navy professions so immediately necessary to the salvation of the country, were attended to.
The House then divided.

For agreeing to the report

65

For the amendment

19

Majority

—

46

BRITISH AND IRISH MILITIAS INTERCHANGE BILL.
Mr. Secretary Rydermoved the order of the day for the House going into a Committee on the Militia Interchange Bill.—on the question that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Colonel Stanleywished; in consequence of a meeting of colonels of Militia, and lord lieutenants of counties, held this day, and their having appointed a Committee to wait on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-morrow, that some delay might be granted, to afford them an opportunity of urging their objections to the Bill.
Mr. Tighestated of his own knowledge, that objections were entertained in Ireland against this Bill. The Irish militia were not precisely on the same footing with the English militia, that is, they were not the same kind of constitutional military force; besides, if the Irish were to be compelled to come over and bear arms in this country, they had a right to require that they should be allowed the free and undisturbed exercise of their religion. In requiring this, the Irish only asked of England to give them the same privileges she gave to the German troops now in this country.
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He thought some delay absolutely necessary, to communicate with their constituents on this subject. He should therefore move as an amendment, that this Committee be postponed to Friday, the 7th of June.
Sir J. Newportfollowed on the same side, and stated that, according to notice, a Catholic meeting was to-morrow to be held in Dublin, to consider of the propriety of petitioning on the subject of allowing the Catholics the free exercise of their religion. If this measure, as was said, was intended to promote union, let it not be made the subject, of controversy. By the 1st of Geo. 1, chap. 13, it was rendered penal to carry arms without taking the oath of supremacy, and he could not see reason why a doubt on this subject should be suffered to remain on the mind of any one, when a single explicit clause in this Bill would do it away.
Mr. Grattanwas of the same opinion, and read part of a letter from the titular archbishop of Tuam to the effect, that the. Irish Catholics would oppose the measure, unless the free exercise of their religion was secured to them by law. This should, he said, be a matter of right, and not dependent on the will of any officer. The introduction of a clause to that effect, would promote recruiting in Ireland, and was beside the least objectionable, and most statesman-like mode of acting. It would also prevent the meetings projected in various parts, and he should, therefore, prefer having such a clause moved on the Report, though, in the mean time, he should vote for the delay.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercould see no cause for delay, as the House were already perfectly in possession of the object of any petitions that might be presented, and might as well consider that point now as hereafter. The free exercise of their religion was the object the Catholics had in view, and it appeared at once, that they must enjoy that under the present Bill, or it would be one law compelling to the breach of another. All that could be wished was the same freedom to attend to public worship in England, as they enjoyed in Ireland, and it was clear that they would have all they requested by this law, which virtually repealed all former acts on the same subject. But if any doubt remained, it would at once be removed by looking at the clause, which ordained that the militias of England, Scotland, and Ireland should enjoy all the same

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privileges and exemptions on their removal, to which they were entitled in their own countries respectively. With respect to attendance on divine worship, the same order from the Commander in Chief would be issued here, as that on which they were contented to rest in Ireland. He concluded by objecting to delay as unnecessary, as any future consideration might have its full weight in other stages, or on a recommittal of the Bill, if that was requisite.
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, that the good sense in which the right hon. gent. seemed not to be wanting in his treatment of other questions, appeared to fail him altogether upon every subject relative to Ireland. If the present question had not been connected with Ireland, how could the right hon. gent. have observed as he had done upon what had fallen from his right hon. friend. His right hon. friend has said, that there would be no need of delay, if a certain objection was removed. That objection the right hon. gent. refused to remove; and yet be contended that his right hon. friend was bound by his own argument to admit the delay to be unnecessary. The avowed object of the Bill was to promote more effectually the union and harmony of the two countries. Did it tend to that object to compel the Roman Catholic to come to this country with a doubt, if not a penal restraint upon his religious rights? But it was said, that he would be put in the same situation in this country he was in his own, and that therefore he must be satisfied; but was he satisfied? was the Irish Catholic content under his present restrictions? Admitting, however, that the present Bill put him in the same state in this country as he had been in his own, but that he did not think it did so, was it too great a sacrifice to the religious feeling of the country to make a distinct clause, which would remove every doubt on the subject? If the right hon. gent., who had been himself so long an eminent lawyer, was sincere upon this subject, he was sure that he must wish to put it in as unquestionable a shape as possible. He would be above contending with what he might call the ignorance or prejudices of the Catholic upon this subject.
General Tarletoncharacterised the measure as fraught with the greatest political and military advantages to the empire.
Sir W. W. Wynndid not think the measure particularly expedient, and deprecated
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any hurry in carrying it through parliament.
Mr. Secretary Ryderadverted to the Irish volunteering Bill of 1804, at which period Mr. Fox, having suggested the introduction into that Bill of a clause exactly similar to that recommended by the hon. gentlemen opposite, and having been told that by the clear construction of the law the Irish Catholic soldier would, on coming to this country, be maintained in the enjoyment of his own religion, acquiesced in the reply. He had authority from his royal highness the Duke of York, to state, that on the passing of the Bill, an order should be issued similar to that issued by the Commander in Chief in Ireland. If any doubt yet remained on the minds of the House upon the subject, he was persuaded that it must he removed on hearing the opinions of the law officers of the crown. He here read the opinions of the Attorney and Solicitor General, in which it was stated that by the provisions of the Bill, the Irish Catholic militiaman, on his transfer to this country, would be entitled to all the privileges with respect to religion, which he had heretofore enjoyed in Ireland, notwithstanding any act to the contrary which might now be in force in Great Britain.
Mr. W. Elliotwished for an additional clause on the subject, or at least that the Regent should be advised to make a new article of war upon it.
Mr. Ponsonbydoubted whether Mr. Fox, having the subject completely before him, had ever withdrawn such a clause as that now proposed: if he had, he would doubt the accuracy even of Mr. Fox's judgment. He rose, not so much to speak to the question, as to notice, that an hon. friend of his would submit a motion on this point on the report, when they would have an opportunity of discussing it.
Mr. Herbertsaid he would vote for any clause that would render the Catholic rights clear and explicit, but in the mean time, would not suffer that to induce him to vote against so excellent a measure.
The Amendment was negatived without a division, and the House resolved itself into the Committee.
Mr. Secretary Ryderthen observed, that to obviate any misapprehension of the subject, he was willing to move the insertion of words stating, that the Irish Catholic militiaman, when transferred to England, should be entitled to the same civil, military, and religious exemptions, as were enjoyed by him in Ireland.
The several clauses of the Bill passed through the Committee after a short discussion; and the House having been resumed, the Report was ordered to be received on Thursday,

INCREASE OF ALLOWANCE TO THE LORD LIEUTENANT OF IRELAND.
On a motion for going into a Committee to consider of granting an increase of allowance to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
Sir J. Newportwished to know if any notice had been given on the subject. A something had been done last session at a very late period, and it was then understood that early this session certain documents were to be laid before the House, to prove the proposed increase of allowance necessary. This he thought ought to be done, and it was proper that some notice should be given to allow time for the due consideration of the subject.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid he had certainly given notice of the motion on Saturday; but if the right hon. baronet wished it postponed till to-morrow; or any day at but a short distance of time, he had no objection to the postponement of the subject. It was, however, to be remembered that the motion was merely one to carry into effect the Resolution of last session.
Sir J. Newportreplied, that if it was only intended to bring in a Bill in the regular way, on the subject, there would be sufficient opportunities for him to express his sentiments hereafter. He did not, under all the circumstances, wish to cause any delay, but he was not aware that the House had the regular notice, Saturday not being a clay on which notices were commonly given.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrepealed, that he had given notice on Saturday.—The House then resolved itself into the Committee, in which the right hon. gentleman moved, That an addition of 10,000 l. per annum should be made to the income of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to be paid out of the consolidated fund.
Sir J. Newportthought that this ought to be done out of the surplus of the Civil List, which was at present paid to his Majesty.
Mr. W. Poleexplained that the proposed regulation first took in the surplus of the Civil List, and the deficiency only was to be supplied from the consolidated fund.
Mr. Tigheobjected to any augmentation
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whatever to the Lord Lieutenant. He was already relieved from great part of the expence attending his state and dignity, by the removal of the Houses of Parliament.
Mr. W. Polesaid, that without an increase above the present allowance, the expence must prove ruinous to any private fortune whatever.
The Resolution was then agreed to.

PETITION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS OF IRELAND.
The Marquis of Downshire,in presenting the petition of the Roman Catholics in Ireland, spoke to the in following effect: My Lords; It is with peculiar satisfaction that I rise this night, to occupy a few moments of your attention—moments which I shall devote, however, to the consideration of the most important subject that can meet your lordships' mind. It is in consequence of the indisposition of an excellent peer (lord Donoughmore) a man whose name will be ever held sacred by his country, from the zeal and proper enthusiasm he has displayed in the cause of his Catholic countrymen. It is, my Lords, in consequence of his indisposition that this honour has fallen upon me. May his health soon be re-established, that so the Catholics of Ireland may again possess an abler asserter of their rights than myself; but they cannot possess a more sincere one. No, my Lords, I feel for them in my heart. I know them well. Not merely from what I have heard, but from what I have seen and witnessed. They are a most respectable body of men, and in this long list of petitioners, my Lords, there are many reputable, not only from the characters and good conduct, but from the situation they hold in society. Many of them I know, most of them I have some knowledge of—and all of them, I can assure you, my Lords, are worthy of a participation in those blessed rights and privileges which you possess. They are born Britons, my Lords: they have lived Britons: they think, and act, and feel like Britons; and for God's sake treat them as

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Britons. By listening to this their Petition, my Lords, you secure to yourselves the boundless advantages of so large a portion of your population; and although they have hitherto been injured, sadly injured; in being debarred from their natural rights, yet so genial is generosity to their nature, that you will now—even now—by attending to their Petition, gain their endless gratitude. I therefore, my Lords, in the name of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, present to you this Petition, and propose that it be taken into the consideration of this House on Friday the 7th of June.
The Petition was read, ordered to lie on the table, and to be taken into consideration on Friday the 7th of June, for which day the Lords were ordered to be summoned.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS' BILL.
The report of the Insolvent Debtors' Bill was presented and
Lord Redesdaleproposed a new clause, which was agreed to, for the purposes of rendering the benefices of clergymen liable to sequestration under the Act the same as in other cases. His lordship then moved that the Bill be engrossed.
Earl Stanhopewished the Bill to be recommitted, in order to give an opportunity of rectifying the numerous errors which he contended were still in the Bill.
The Lord Chancellorwould not object to the engrossment, but he should feel himself compelled to say not-content to the third reading. If, however, in consequence of the failure of this measure, a common Insolvent Bill was brought in, he would not object to it.
Lord Redesdalegreatly regretted the opposition which his Bill had met with, and observed that a perfect measure could not be expected; all they could do was to take experience as far as possible for their guide, and make further enactments as they were found expedient. An idea had gone abroad that this was his final Bill upon this subject, but the fact was, that he had another Bill in contemplation for the purpose of compelling the debtor to surrender his property to his creditors; and also a Bill which he was disappointed in its not being proposed in the other House this session, for the purpose of the more effectual recovery, at a small expence, of debts under 20 l.
The Earl of Moirahad objections to some, of the provisions of this Bill, but was fully, aware that it was impossible to frame
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a perfect measure upon this subject, and was therefore prepared to support the present Bill in furtherance of the principle which he so anxiously wished to established.
The Bill was order to be engrossed.