Sitting of 20 May 1811

PETITION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS OF IRELAND.
Mr. Gruttanpresented a Petition from his Majesty's Catholic Subjects, whose names were thereunto subscribed, as well for themselves as others his Majesty's subjects professing the Catholic faith in Ireland, setting forth,
"That, for a long series of years, the Petitioners and their ancestors suffered under the most cruel system of legalised persecution that ever afflicted a Christian people: and that, although they do with gratitude acknowledge that several of the enactments of that oppressive code have been repealed since the accession of his present Majesty to the throne of these realms, nevertheless the Petitioners still continue objects of a most degrading exclusion, not less injurious to the interests
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of the empire than offensive to the feelings of the Petitioners; and that, for the last 17 years, no relief whatsoever has been extended to the Petitioners, though they have three several times within that period submitted their grievances and their claims to the consideration of the united parliament; on the contrary, their humble representations were disregarded, their just statements were contradicted, without afffording an opportunity of supporting them, every prayer for investigation was rejected, and men distinguished from their fellow citizens only by their inveterate and offensive opposition to the claims of the Petitioners, were raised to situations in the state of trust, dignity and emolument, a course of policy which the Petitioners cannot help considering at the least extremely questionable at all time: but more particularly so when the very independence of the United Kingdom becomes the subject of national contest; and that they deem it unnecessary to enter into any refutation of the several calumnies and misrepresentations which have been circulated respecting the doctrine of their holy religion; the solemn pledges they have given, the revenue they have contributed, the blood they have shed, and the lives they have sacrificed, in support of British policy and British connection, supply abundant contradiction to the malignant assertions and insinuations of their misguided enemies: the religion they profess is maintained by every one of his Majesty's European allies; it was the religion of every man in England when that colossal pillar of British liberty, so justly entitled her Great Charter, was raised by her trusty sons; and they beg leave most humbly to remind the House, that the Catholics of Ireland contribute very largely to the supply and reinforcement of his Majesty's forces on sea and land; and that they cannot disguise the feelings of disappointment: and dissatisfaction with which they are impressed, on finding such attachment and support on their part met by a system of cold and jealous reserve, which excludes the Irish Catholic from rank in military command; and those feelings are raised to a spirit of indignation when they observe that confidence which is refused to the Petitioners in this their native land reposed in foreign mercenaries, strangers alike to their soil and their constitutions and not naturally interested in the defence or prosperity of either; and that,

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fully impressed with the conviction that the extent and degrees of their grievances are already known to the House, they deem it unnecessary to resort to a minute detail or recital of them, as such a particular recapitulation could only tend to impress more forcibly, and, if possible, more painfully, on the minds of the Petitioners, the degrading consequences resulting from their present wretched state of exclusion and humiliation; and praying the House to comply with the prayers of so many millions of their fellow subjects, and not to suffer their claims any longer to remain disregarded; the extent of their supplication is, that the House will secure and consolidate the real strength of the nation, and excite a spirit of enthusiastic loyalty in so large a portion of his Majesty's subjects at a time when every arm and every sinew is valuable in the defence of this insulated empire; the Petitioners ask for no favour which it is not in the power of parliament to bestow, or which they are not entitled to enjoy; restore then, they most humbly pray the House, the Catholics of Ireland to a full participation of all the blessings of that constitution, to the support and defence of which they have so essentially contributed."
Mr. Grattansaid he should abstain from entering into the subject, till Friday, the 31st instant, when he intended to move that the Petition be referred to a Committee of the whole House.—Ordered to lie on the table.

PETITION OF MR. DODD.
Mr. Sheridansaid the case of this Petitioner was one of such, extreme hardship that it called loudly for redress. He had carried on business as a distiller at Ballinacloon, in the county of Westmeath in Ireland, where his whole property was destroyed by a party of militia acting under the orders of the government of Ireland, on the most unfounded suspicions. There were circumstances in this case which separated it from other applications for compensation from government, to which the consent of his Majesty's ministers was necessary. The petitoner stated that he was promised full compensation by lord Camden, formerly Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, which compensation was afterwards, for some reason or other, thought proper to be refused. He said he should proceed to read the Petition, after which it would be seen whether it ought to lie on the table.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid he bad heard the right hon. gent, with some surprise. If there were any thing in the Petition which it might be necessary to obtain the consent of the King to, he, thought it unreasonable to ask the House to depart from its established practice, without first making an effort to obtain that consent. He would not say he had never heard of the case in question, but he had no recollection of the claims of the Petitioner having ever been brought before the administration of which he was a member, and therefore saw no reason for departing from the regular forms of the House.
Mr. Sheridansaid, after what had been stated by the right hon. gent, he, instead of moving that the petition be brought up, would put it into the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-morrow.

THE BUDGET.
The House having resolved into a Committee of Ways and Means,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose to open the Budget for the present year. He began by observing that having that morning concluded a contract, subject to the approbation of parliament, for the Loan for the service of the present year, on terms which he trusted, under all the circumstances of the case, the Committee would consider to be highly advantageous to the public, he should proceed to submit to them the details of that contract. But, before he did this, he conceived that it would be necessary for him to state, with as much clearness as he possibly could, the various sums which the House had already voted for the supply of the present year, and the Ways and Means to which in his judgment, they ought to resort for the purpose of meeting those sums. The supplies which had been voted were as follow:—

SUPPLIES, 1811.

Navy (exclusive of Ordnance Sea Service)

£ 20,276 144

Army (including Barracks and Commissariat)

£14, 209,422

Ditto Ireland

3,233,421

Extraordinaries

3,200,000

Unprovided ditto last year

627,098

21,269,941

Ordnance

5,612,378

Miscellaneous, including 400,000 l.

Irish Permanent Grants.

2,050,000

Vote of Credit

England

3,000,000

Ireland

200,000

3,200,000

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Sicily

400,000

Portugal

2,100,000

Joint Charge

54,308,453.

SEPARATE CHARGES.

Loyalty loan

113,416

Interest on Exchequer Bills

1,600,000

1,713,416

Total Supplies

56,021,869

Irish Proportion

6,569,000

49,452,869

Irish Proportion of 54,308,453 l

6,389,000

Irish Civil List and other Charges

180,000

6,569,000

With respect to the Sicilian subsidy, he had to intreat the indulgence of the Committee for a great inattention on his part, namely, in having omitted to lay before parliament the last treaty with Sicily, on which that vote was founded. He had erroneously apprehended that the treaty was already on the table of the House, and it was but three or four days ago that he discovered his mistake. To-morrow, however, or the next day at farthest, he would take care to present it to the House, and he hoped they would accept that apology for his omission hitherto to do so.
He would proceed to state the various articles of Ways and Means, by which he proposed to meet the 49,452,869 l. of supply to be provided by England:

WAYS AND MEANS, 1811.

Annul Duties

£3,000,000

Surplus Consolidated Fund, 1810

1,353,715

Surplus Consolidated Fund, 1811

5,000,000

War Taxes

20,000,000

Lottery

300,000

Exchequer Bills

4,000,000

Vote of Credit

8,000,000

Loan in 6 per Cent Stock

4,981,300

in 3 and 4 per Cents

7,500,000

12,481,300

Naval Stores

420,364

49,555,379

It thus appeared that the total of Ways and Means exceeded the total of the Supply in the sum of 102,510 l. The Committee would, however, expect that he would enter into an explanation of the grounds on which he calculated the surplus of the Consolidated Fund of the present year, at the sum of 5,000,000 l. To do this, it would be necessary for him to detail the produce at which he estimated the various articles that went to the constitution of that fund. He took the customs at 5,134,000 l; being the average of the produce of the two last years. He had
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taken a similar average last year, being then 4,485,333 l, but in fact the Customs had produced 4,987,391 l.; being about 500,000 l. beyond the calculation. So with the Excise, he proposed to take it on the average of the produce of the two last years, or 17,167,000 l. Of this article he had also taken a similar average last year, being then 16,880,625 l.; but the Excise had produced 17,399,312 l. This mode of calculation afforded him a fair scheme of estimate; for although the Customs for 1811 fell short by about 200,000 l. of the customs of 1810 yet the Excise for 1810 was surpassed by that of 1811 to a similar amount, the excess of the one balancing the deficiency of the other. The produce of the Assessed taxes had last year been estimated at 5,860,000 l.; they had actually produced 5,781,831 l. and he would take them for the present year at 5,800,000 l. The Stamp duties he had last year estimated at 5,193,000 l.; they had actually produced 5,302,743 l. The great increase in these duties during the last year completely justified him in the statement which he had at that period made, that the whole charge of the year might be defrayed out of their excess. To this statement, however, he had added the observation that it was not probable the same excess would exist in the succeeding year. He should therefore take the amount of the stamps for the present year only at 5,300,000 l. The Post-office revenue was estimated by him last year at 1,194,000 l. the actual produce was 1,276,000 l. and he proposed to take it for the present year at 1,280,000 l. He could not pass over this particular article without directing the attention of the Committee to the great increase that had taken place during the last two or three years in the receipts at the Post-office. In 1809, the Post-office had produced 1,083,000 l.; in 1810, 1,194,000 l.; and in 1811, 1,276,000 l. being an increase on the average of about 90,000 l. a year, and that not from any additional duties on postage, but simply from the augmented commercial communication of the country. It was clear, therefore, that by taking the amount for the present year only, at 1,280,000 l. an opportunity was afforded to parliament, if they should think it wise and expedient to avail themselves of it, to relieve Scotland, and other distant parts of the empire, without the danger of any diminution of the estimated revenue. The Hawkers and Pedlars, and sundry small branches of the

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revenue he would take at 106,000 l.; Personal Estates and Pensions at 156,000 l.; the Land Tax at 1,038,000 l.; the Surplus Exchequer Fees at 54,000 l.; the Tontine at 24,000 l.; the Crown Lands, &c. at 66,000 l. and the Imprest Monies at 200,000 l. making the total of the estimated receipt of the existing permanent taxes for the present year, 36,322,000 l.—To this must be added 2,240,000 l.; being the amount of the war taxes appropriated to the Consolidated Fund; and the grand total would be 38,562,000 l.; which being deducted from the estimated produce of the Consolidated Fund, would leave a balance of 5,649,000 l. He would, however, take the surplus only at 5,000,000 l. and would presently account for the disposal of the balance. With the exception of last year, when the surplus of the Consolidated Fund was 5,753 715 l.; of the preceding year, when (from peculiar circumstances) it amounted to 7,019,774 l.; and of the year 1803, when it was 5,936,651 l. that surplus had at no period exceeded, or even reached 5,000,000 l. This was a highly satisfactory circumstance, in contemplating the state of the finances of the country.
The next item which he thought might require some explanation, was the amount of the estimate for the War Taxes for the year ending the 5th April, 1812. This estimate was 20,484,000 l. The grounds on which he calculated he would state as briefly as possible: The average produce of the Custom and Excise war duties for the last three years was 9,296,805 l. The produce of the last year was 9,727,213 l.; but he thought it better to take the average of the three last years. Four, hundred thousand pounds remained due from the East India Company. These sums, added together, made 9,696,805 l. The next produce of the assessment of the Property Tax for the year ending April 5, 1811. was estimated at 1 1,800,000 l. This was 400,000 l. more than the sum calculated upon as the probable produce, though less than the produce of the preceding year, on account of the great amount of arrears received in that year. The amount of the outstanding arrears of the Property Tax from 1804 to 1810, was 2,246,644 l. Of this sum, it was expected that a part would be returned by schedules, and part might not be recoverable; he would suppose one-fourth, or 560,000 l. Deducting this, the amount, therefore, of outstanding arrears that might be expected to be received, was 1,686,644 l. of the estimated produce of the duty for
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the year ending the 5th of April, 1811, (namely 11,800,000 l), 4,864,267 l. had been received: 6,935,732 l. therefore remained to be received. This, added to the l,686,644 l expected to be received of the arrears of former years, made 8,622,000 l.; which, with the estimated nett produce of the assessment of the present year, which he would take at the same as the last, namely, 11,800,000 l., gave 20,422,000 l. From this, however, must be deducted the sum of 7,524,000 l. remaining to complete the grant of is 10, leaving a balance of 12,898 000 l. to be received on account of the property tax. Let this be added to the estimate of the war taxes, 9,690,805 l. and the result would be 22,59 4,805 l. There were war taxes, however, to the amount of 2,240,000 l. already pledged for the interest of the debt, and which must therefore be deducted, leaving the balance to be received 20,354,805 l. He would, however, take it at 20,000,000 l.
He now came to the consideration of the Loan, and of the Ways and Means in aid of the revenue to meet the expences of the year. He had already explained to the Committee the state of the Loan made in the 5 per cent. stock, and the Exchequer Bills funded in the present session. These amounted altogether to 12,000,000 l. by which a capital was created in the 5 per centum stock of 12,444,711 l. The interest on this capital was 622,235 l. The Sinking Fund 124,447 l. The charges of management 3,733 l. making a total of 750,416 l. to be annually provided for, for the loan in the 5 per cents. By the loan of 7,500,000 l. for which he had that morning contracted, a total charge would be incurred of 465,403 l. 10 s. The capital created was 7,500,000 l. in the 3 per cents, reduced; 1,500,000 l. in the consols, and 1 500,000 l. in the 4 per cents. For each hundred pounds subscribed, the subscribers were to have 100 l. in the 3 per cents, reduced, 20 l. in the consols, 20 l. in the 4 per cents, and 6s. 11 d. in the long annuities. By a calculation made on the price of stocks on the Saturday before, it appeared that the 100 l. in the 3 per cents, reduced, which was on that day 64⅛th, was equal to 64 l. 2s. 6d. That the twenty pound in the consols, which were at 65⅛th, was equal-to 13 l. 0s. 6d. and the 20 l. 4 per cent. which was at 80⅛th, was equal to 16 l; These sums amounted to 93 l. 3s 6d; and if to this were added the value of the us. 6s.11d. long annuities, namely, 5l. 17 s. 10 d.

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the whole would be found to amount to 99 l. is.4d. There was a discount, however, of 3 per cent. on the payment of nine months, amounting to 2l. 6s. 6d. and there would, therefore, be a bonus of it Is. nod on every hundred pounds subscribed. He apprehended that a more favourable I an to the public than the present could hardly have been expected; and he had the satisfaction to state to the House that he understood that it was already at a premium of 1l. 10 s. per cent. It had been conracted also with the expectaion that the funds were in such a state as to afford every reasonable hope of an improvement, rather than of a diminution of the advantages to the subscribers. The amount of the interest on this last loan would be 355,937 l. 10 s.; of the Sinking Fond 106,112 l.; of the charges of management, 3,344 l. making a total of 465,403 l. 10 s. which added to the total of the other loan, made the grand total of charge on the two loans, 1,215,819 l. The rate per centum, including all charges paid by the public, was, on the 7,500,000 l. loan, 6l. 4s. l¼d; on the 12,000,000 l. funded, 6l 5s. 0¾d. The rate of interest to the subscribers on the 3 per cent. loan, was 4l. 14 s. 11 d. per cent.; on the 5 per cent. loan, 5l. 3s. 8¼d. per cent. The difference on the charges being not quite one shilling per cent. and which difference was attributable to the Sinking Fund. The rate per cent. on the whole debt created, paid by the public, was 6l 48, 3¼d. It was a great satisfaction to him to state that so large a portion of the loan of the year had been funded in the 5 per cents. For on a comparison of the 3 per cents, at present with the 3 per cents, of last year; and of the 5 per cents, at present with the 5 per cents, of last year, the Committee would be surprised to observe, how little disadvantageous the bargain in the 5 per cents, had been as compared with that in the three; the 5 per cents having been much more stationary and not proprotionably depressed. When last year 8,500,000 l. only was funded in the 5 per cents, instead of 12,000,000 l, as in the recent instance, the expence created was 6l. 4s. 7¼d. per cent. In the recent instance the expence created was 6l. 5s. o¾d. per cent. making a difference of only 5½d. per cent. between the two charges. The difference in the 3 per cents, in the two years was much greater. Last year the expence was 5l. 13 s. 3d. per cent. this year the expence was 6l. 4s. 1¼d.
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Last year the interest was 4l. 4s. 2d. per cent.; this year it was 4l. 14 s. 11 d. making a difference of above 10 s. per cent. This was to him a satisfactory reflection, as he had so pertinaciously persisted in procuring the whole of the 12,000,000 l. to be funded in the 5 per cents.
Having thus stated that the whole of the charges created by both loans, wag 1,215,819 l. he should next submit to the Committee the mode by which he proposed to meet these charges. Before he did this, he must add, that it was his intention to recommend a repeal of the duty on Hats, which, ever since he came into office, had continued to decrease in amount. When this tax was first levied it produced 60 or 70,000 l. He did not suppose that fewer hats were worn than formerly; but the fact was that the produce of the duty last year was only 29,332 l t It had been gradually diminishing. In 1809 it was 38,000 l.; in 1809, 33,000 l.; in 1810,31,000 l.: and in 1811, as he had already stated, only 29,332 l. This was a rapidly decreasing ratio. He was aware therefore, that in giving up the duty he did not give up much, for it was gradually wearing itself out. It was the cause of great vexation and trouble to the persons carrying on the trade of hat dealers, and particularly to those who dealt on fair terms, over whom the dealer who was disposed to second the fraudulent wishes of his customers, by omitting the stamp, had a very unmerited advantage. The Committee was aware that a similar duty on gloves had formerly been abandoned. Before he came to the resolution of proposing the repeal of the duty on hats, he had seriously considered whether it might not be collected in some other manner; but after a good deal of deliberation he was persuaded that no mode could be adopted which would not be so inconvenient to the trade and to the public, as to render it highly unadvisable. He begged leave, that if in consequence of the repeal of this tax, it should happen that any persons might be led to imagine, that al though the duties on gloves and hats were abandoned, it might be expedient to impose others on coats, waistcoats, shoes, or leather breeches, and in consequence to suggest such new duties to government; it might be a great relief both to those persons who were so kindly ready to: furnish the Chancellor of the Exchequer with the Ways and Means of the year, and to that individual himself, to state that be did not

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consider it expedient to tax articles of dress. This notice would not appear superfluous to the Committee, if they were aware how many letters he was constantly receiving, in which not only every habiliment which could be named, but even the bolts, handles, latches, and other appendages of doors and windows, were recommended by well intentioned persons as tit objects of taxation.
He came now to that part of his duty which was always considered as the most irksome and unpleasant; but on the present occasion he had the highest satisfaction in stating to the Committee, that they bad already in the course of the session voted taxes to an amount greater than that which was requisite to meet the burdens of the year; and therefore that he should not propose to lay on a single new tax. The fact, indeed, was, that the sum voted was much larger than was wanted. Of these new duties which had been imposed, the principal was that on spirits; the nature of which had already been sufficiently explained, which had received the sanction of the Committee, and the Bill to impose which was in a state of great forwardness. The probable amount on British spirits from the most accurate estimate that he could obtain would be 700,000 l. The produce of the duty on British spirits in the year ended 5th April, 1811, was 2,505,448 l. to which, if the Committee added the amount of duty due from the Customs in Scotland, and unpaid for the same year, viz. 360,000 l. it would make 2,865,448 l. Upon this the additional duty of 19 l. 4s. 7d. per cent. would amount to 551,000 l. The additional duty of 12½ per cent. upon the present Excise duties on foreign spirits (exclusive of rum), which produced 1,580,000 l. in the last year, he would state at 200,000 l. although he did not expect that it would produce so much. There were other taxes, which, although imposed last year, did not begin to operate until the present. Double the amount of the present duty on timber, on the average of the two last years, would be 622,000 l. An additional 1d. per lb. had been voted by the Committee on all cotton wool brought from the American States, and other parts (inclusive of British and Portuguese colonies), being on an average of the last six years, 35,304000lbs. and amounting to 147,100 l. On pearl and pot ashes, imported, except from the British colonies,? duty had been imposed of 4s, 8d, per cwt.
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On the average of the last six years, the quantity imported annually was 111,000 cwt. making the sum of 25,900 l. The duty on foreign linen, in proportion to the quarter ending 5th January, 1811, (when the duty first had full effect) would amount to 71,600 l These various sums, added together, would give 1,617,600 l. The Committee would, however, be aware that these duties were of course subject to such diminution as might be occasioned by the discouragement of the articles on which they were imposed. This diminution would probably not be very considerable for some period; but he had no doubt, and, indeed, sincerely trusted, that they would ultimately be very much diminished, as in proportion to that diminution would the encouragement to English articles increase. These duties he proposed to go in accumulation of the war taxes, and he conceived, that in giving 866,600 l. to the war taxes he should not be unjostified in taking from them 465,403 l. which sum, added to the produce of the two duties on spirits, viz. 751,000 l. would give him the 1,215,819 l. which he required. Then, however, there would be a balance of 300,000 l. of the war taxes unappropriated and applicable to the ways and means of the year, and also 600,000 l. of surplus of the consolidated fund. The Committee must recollect, that these new taxes had been voted at an advanced period of the year, one quarter having nearly elapsed, and a consequent deficiency of one fourth ensuing; it would therefore be expedient to meet this deficiency out of the surplus of the Consolidated fund, and 250,000 l. must be deducted from the 600,000 l. on that account.
He had now to submit to the Committee a very important consideration, to which he should call their most serious attention. As soon as the the present subject was finished his right hon. friend (Mr. Foster) would proceed to lay before them the situation of the finances of Ireland. His right hon. friend would have to state that he had borrowed for the service of Ireland 2,500,000 l. in that country, and that he had borrowed 4,500,000 l. in England for the same service. To meet the expences of the loan raised in Ireland, his right hon. friend was ready to propose the necessary taxes; but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had no hesitation in saying that he trusted the Committee would agree with him in thinking that, in the present distressed state of the Irish

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Finances, it would not be wise or expedient to call on his right hon. friend to lay taxes on that country for the purpose of meeting the expences of the loan of 4,500,000 l. raised in England. It was therefore his intention to propose to the English members and the Irish members of the House of Commons, that the expences of that part of the loan raised for the service of Ireland should be charged on the Consolidated Fund of England (as a loan to Ireland) in order to procure the public creditor a permanent security, and for at least a twelvemonth, while an inquiry was making into the finances of that country, to bear the interest of the money so raised. He trusted that the Committee would be of opinion, let whatever might be the issue of that inquiry, that it would be advisable to come forward in the way which he recommended, and out of the comparative affluence of the English finances, to afford aid to Ireland in the hour of her particular embarrassment. With a view of furnishing the Committee with the means by which this great good could be effected to Ireland, without any inconvenience to this country, he had forborne to take more than 5,000,000 l. from the surplus of the Consolidated Fund, leaving a sufficient sum to meet the proposed charge. Though this was a novel proposition, he was persuaded that it would be received without grudging, or any indisposition on the part of the Committee, to afford to Ireland that assistance which he had shewn could be afforded to her, without any material inconvenience to Great Britain. He repeated, that the inconvenience would be immaterial; for what was the nature of the additional taxes, by which the surplus of the Consolidated Fund-would be so much increased as to enable the Committee to do that which he recommended? The duty on British spirits had been founded on a principle which had over and over again been recognized by the Committee as just. After the experience of last year, namely, having found that spirits had continued to be sold at the increased price to which they were raised when distilled from sugar, there were no reasons to suppose there would be any diminution in the con sumption of the article from the very small advance on the price which the presen duty could be expected to occasion. With respect to the other duties, they were all recommended to the Committee, on views very different from those con-
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nected with finance. They were proposed expressly for the purposes of endeavouring to procure for British shipping those imports, which the war in which the country was engaged, necessarily limited (and which were now enjoyed by foreigners); and of encouraging the exertions of British manufactures, and the consumption of British colonial produce. Policy would have dictated these measures without any reference whatever to their, beneficial tendency with respect to finance. He was therefore justified in saying that Ireland might be assisted without prejudice to Great Britain, and he trusted that the assistance would be received in Ireland as it would be given in this country; namely, as affording a mark of our disposition to lend every possible aid to Ireland under the embarrassed circumstances in which she was placed, and as tending to enforce the necessity and the policy of either country stepping to the support of the other, when the one was able to give, and the other so situated as to require assistance.
He believed that he had now stated, as fully and distinctly as he had it in his power to do, ail the considerations immediately connected with the subject before the Committee. He trusted that he had not omitted any necessary explanation; but before he sat down, he wished to mention a few circumstances, in order to shew the general increase of the revenue, and the affluence of the country. For this? purpose he begged the attention of the Committee to the increasing produce of the Customs and Excise, during the last five years. In the year ending the 5th: April 1807, the produce of the customs was 9,012,000 l. in 1808, 9,123,612 l. in 1809, 8,508,258 l. in 1810, 10 536,775 l. and in 1811, 10,523,169 l. being an in crease of near a million since the year 1807. The produce of the excise in the year ending 5th April 1807, was; 23,740,518 l.; in 1811, 24,046,022 l. In the intermediate years the advance was gradual, with the exception of 1809, in; which year there was a considerable falling off, the produce being only 22,837,856 l In the two succeeding years, however, this depression was completely recovered A inquiry into other articles of general consumption, would contribute to show; the increasing opulence of the nation. The produce of the duties on cotton wool imported into the country in 1807, was: 543,526 l.; the produce in the year 1811,

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was 1,034,142 l. The duties on deals and fir timber imported in 1807, were 566,247 l. In 1811 they amounted to 642,104 l. The excise duties on tea in 1807, were 2,844,395 l. In 1811 they amounted to 3,236,027 l. This last was a more extraordinary increase, as the article was under most heavy taxation, and as the increase took place after the operation, from which so much mischief was anticipated, of the reduced duty on coffee. All this could be accounted for only by the general augmentation of wealth in the country. Of this increasing wealth a most striking instance was afforded in the consumption of wine. In 1785 the quantity of wine consumed was 14,550 tons; in 1780, 15,087 tons; in 1787, 14,780 tons; making the average of the three years an annual consumption of 14,800 tons. At that period the average price of port wine was 70 l. 11 s. 6l. per pipe. In 1807, the quantity of wine consumed was 24,090 tons: in 1808,24,757 tons; in 1809, 22,331 tons; the average of these three years being an annual consumption of 23,726 tons. At the former period the duty was 30 l. perton; at the latter 95 l The average price at the former period being 70 l. 11 s. at the latter period 192 l. 14 s. per ton: so that under both the increase of duty and the increase of price the consumption had increased. He could hardly conceive it possible to adduce a more striking instance of general prosperity. The average consumption of tallow, for the three years ending in 1787, was 210,174 cwt. The average for the three years, ending in 1809, was 347,170 cwt. The price at the former period was 2l. 8s. 8d. per cwt.; at the latter period, 4l. 11 s. being one-third more. Nor did this increase in the consumption of tallow arise from any de crease in the consumption of oil. The average consumption of oil for the three years, ending in 1787, was 9,730 tons: the average consumption for the three years, ending in 1809, was 19,126 tons. The price at the former period was 19 l. 18 s. 9d. per ton; at the latter period 32 l. 9s. The average quantity of tobacco annually imported for the three years ending in 1787, was 6,553,000lbs. The annual average for the three years ending in 1809, was 12461,000lbs. The price at the former period was 8¼d. a pound; at the latter If. 7¾d. He was aware that these details Were very tedious, but he had the consolation of knowing that they were at the same time very satisfactory, as they af-
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forded the most convincing evidence of the gradual and great increase of the riches of the country. Tie Chancellor of the Exchequer concluded a most perspicuous statement, by apologizing to the Committee for having occupied so much of their time, and by expressing his readiness to afford any further explanation that might be desired. He then moved his first Resolution.
Sir T. Turtonobjected to the Property Tax as unequal and unjust; but congratulated the right hon gentleman on the terms on which he had procured the loan.
Mr. Baringobjected to the tax on cotton, as only likely to produce serious injury to the country. This was not perhaps the proper stage for entering into the discussion minutely, but he could not help observing that a duty on the raw material, which would make a difference of 4d. in the pound, upon an article not worth above 12 d. per pound, at present, should not be adopted with precipitation. He was sure the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would find, upon inquiry, that such a tax would have an injurious operation upon the manufactures of the country. As to the timber tax, he thought it would have a tendency to exclude the timber from the Baltic, and, perhaps, in that view was beneficial, as a means of encouraging our trade with our own colonies, and with America, but as an article of revenue he did not know that any expectations should be founded on it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequcrsaid, that the tax had been already proposed, and was in an advanced stage at the present moment. He denied that there would be any apprehension from it of injury to our manufactures. We had much cotton in our own colonies, and there had been of late years a greater fluctuation in the price of that article than the addition of this duty would effect, notwithstanding which, it had continued to prosper. There was, besides, an immediate quantity on our hands, and much would be obtained from different parts. As to the duty upon timber, he was prepared to expect the effect described by the hon. gentleman, and had provided against any failure by a larger estimate.
Mr. Rosesaid, that if any inconvenience was to occur which might prevent the importation of cotton wool from America, it might be brought from the East Indies to any amount.
Mr. Baringstated, that the cotton which; came from India sold at 8d. a pound,

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while that from America sold at 12 d. The coarser could not supply the place of the finer. The produce of our own colonies was extremely limited in this respect; and it should be well considered whether it was right to give a preference to the cotton of the Brazils above the cotton of America.
The Resolutions were then agreed to.

IRISH BUDGET.
Mr. Fostersaid, he should not occupy the time of the Committee to any great length, but would proceed directly to the subject of the Ways and Means for Ireland. The interest of the debt was 4,279,000 l. and the estimated vote of the present year, 6,569,000 l. Ireland had been deficient in the last year, 1,866,000 l. making, in Irish money, 2,011,000 l. The surplus of the Consolidated Fund for the last year was 740,000 l. the revenue of the year was 4,500,000 l. a loan had been negociated at 2,500,000 l. An act had been passed for raising 1,000,000 l. by Treasury Bills, and 4,500,000 l. was raised in Great Britain, making in the whole 13,615,713 l. which left 200,000 l. beyond the Supply. He then proceeded to state the Ways and Means for meeting the interest of these sums. It was not his intention, as his right hon. friend had already stated, to raise taxes in Ireland, under the present circumstances of that country, to the whole amount. The measure by which he was relieved from that necessity was a proof not only of great liberality, but of great wisdom; and as Ireland was a country of ample resources they might look forward to a future period, when she would be able to discharge the obligation. The taxes he should propose were not many; he had laid down one principle, which, as often as it could with convenience be resorted to, he was desirous to adopt, and that was the equalization of the taxes of Ireland with those of England, in the correspondent articles. There was one article which had always been a subject of taxation in Ireland, ever since a tax was known there, he meant tobacco; the tax at present was Jess in that country than in Great Britain; and he should propose to make it equal. The produce of this he estimated at 221,000 l. The next tax was on hemp, which he intended to increase also up to the British standard. This would give a sum of 8,000 l. and both together would make 229,000 l. Of this sum 150,000 l. would meet the charge upon the 2 500,000 l. loan, at six per cent. and 50,000 l. the in-
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terest upon the 1,000,000 l. Treasury Bill at five per cent. leaving a surplus of. 29,000 l.—There were two other taxes he should propose, without relying on them much, as he did not conceive they were likely to produce any important addition of revenue. The first was to place the duty on Timber imported from the United States of America on the same footing with that imported from other foreign countries. The United States were now on the same footing with our own colonies. There was one article, however, which came under the head of timber, on which he thought it advisable to reduce the tax, the article of staves; being so necessary to our export trade, and being capable of being supplied from our own colonies, he should in a great measure relieve them from the duty which, in the other case, he proposed to equalize with that of England. The next was a duty on cotton wool imported in foreign ships, which he would also desire to raise to the standard of England. At present the duty in England on cotton wool imported in foreign ships, was 1l. 5s. 11 d. in the hundred weight, and the British ships, 10 s. 6d. In Ireland it was much less, and the consequence of this difference was, that the timber brought to any of the ports of Ireland in foreign ships was put into British ships and sent to England, and the law by that means evaded. These were all the duties he should propose, and he would follow the example of his right hon. friend in removing the duty upon hats in Ireland.—He should be sorry to sit down, after the various reports that had gone abroad respecting the situation of the sister kingdom, if he did not endeavour to correct some misrepresentations as to the state of its prosperity. For this purpose he had procured an account of the imports and exports, which would put the subject in a clearer light. From these it appeared, that before the year 1802 the exports had never been known to rise above 7,000,000 l. in 1808 they advanced to 10,000,000 l. but in 1809 they failed; again in 1810 they rose to 10,711,000 l. and upon an, average of the last three years, they were upwards of 10,000,000 l. annually. The foreign goods exported previous to 1802 had never exceeded 370,000 l. but since that period the amount was progressively increasing, until, in 1810, it advanced to 840,000 l. and, in 1811, to 920,000 l. Upon she whole, the balance of trade was in our favour from the year 1802, and in the last

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year amounted to 2,189,000 l The exchange had been steady for the last four or five years. If he were to go more at large into the situation of Ireland, he should state the increase of her tillage, which was so far improved that she had never exported so much corn as in the last two years. The linen trade was declining every where, but less there than any where else. The provision trade had rather fallen off, but there were quantities which went abroad and were distributed among the fleet, which never appeared in the books; so that they should not be too hasty to condemn it as unsuccessful, from the accounts that appeared. Live cattle had been exported in great quantities, insomuch that it had risen from 5,000 l. to 39,00 l. or something near it. After the liberal reception which the proposal of his right hon. friend had met from the Committee, he should merely content himself with expressing his consciousness of the liberality of their conduct; and at the same time of declaring his conviction that it would be received and remembered with gratitude by every Irishman. The whole conduct of the United Parliament towards Ireland with respect to pecuniary matters, had been marked with the greatest liberality. Sums had been readily voted for building churches, for promoting the residence of the clergy, for public institutions, for seminaries of education in Ireland. With regard to trade, warehouses had been extended, light-houses had been constructed; in short, he did not know a single object that served to contribute to the prosperity, the morality, and information of the people of Ireland, which the United Parliament had not most cheerfully and liberally supported. He had no doubt this wise and generous policy would be most amply rewarded in the end. He concluded by moving, that 2½ millions be raised by loan for the service of Ireland.
Sir John Newportsaid, it had often fallen to his lot from time to time, to call the attention of the House to the growth of the Irish debt, and the inaccurate manner of arranging the rate of contribution at the time of the Union. He was willing to make every acknowledgment to the liberality of the United Parliament for its present inclination to assist Ireland to pay off a debt which it was impossible that she could pay herself. He admitted too, that Ireland had improved since the Union, but did not think it followed that she would not have improved with greater rapidity
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if the Union had never taken place; she had not carried in her improvement a capacity for taxation. In order to accomplish that, it would be necessary to circulate wealth among the middling orders of society, and inspire them with a relish for those comforts to which they were not at present sufficiently inclined; the present generation in all probability would not live to see that change, but until such, change were wrought, he should disapprove of extending the taxation to Ireland. There was a portion of the Property Tax which, most unjustly, as he thought, was diverted from the Irish Exchequer to England, This ought to belong to Ireland alone, and if it had been allotted to her, and appropriated to the discharge of her necessities, she would not now be obliged to call for relief. The revenues of Ireland had made no progress adequate to the debt, and it was a fact, of which the right hon. gentleman could not be ignorant, that as soon as any tax was attempted to be increased upon tobacco, wines, or tars, the consumption of those articles fell off, and the produce, instead of advancing, fell back. As to the statement that much of the provisions intended for the consumption of the navy did not appear in the account, it was certainly true; but it was equally true at the present moment, it never appeared in the books.—As to the grants for Education, he knew of no such thing. A Commission had certainly been appointed at his (sir J. Newport) investigation to inquire into the state of the different schools, but no grant had been make in furtherance of any plan, and he hoped that no religious distinctions would be made in the final proceedings to which that Commission might lead; he would state positively that none was intended by those who first suggested its appointment. As to the fact of the merchants being relieved from fees, it was undoubtedly true; but if he was rightly informed, they would rather pay their former fees than experience the inconvenience to which they were exposed in consequence of the present regulation. The building of the lighthouses was an expence defrayed by Ireland herself; and, therefore, would scarcely be selected as an instance of the liberality of Great Britain. No instance had occurred for the last three years, in which her separate charge amounted to within 1,000,000 l: of the joint charge; this was one of the effects of the rate and quota of contribution adjusted at the Union, which so long.

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as it was acted upon would render the payment of the debt impossible, notwithstanding the promise given at the time, that the consequence of the Union would be to diminish the expenditure by 1,000,000 l. in time of war, and by 500,000 l. in time of peace. The right hon. gentleman had taken the revenue last year at 4,500,000 l. but it had produced only 3,700,000 l. and yet he persisted this year in taking it at the same rate. Why should he go on with this fallacy? would it not be better for parliament to know, and to meet the evil day? With regard to the taxes proposed, if he (sir John Newport) were to select any one article upon which he would be most unwilling to increase the duty of, that article would be tobacco. All former attempts to increase the revenue from it, had been unfortunate; and he was not sure but that lessening the duty would have been a better way to improve the produce. If Ireland had gone sufficiently into the culture of hemp to supply the consumption, he would readily have agreed to the tax proposed; but as that was not the case, the Committee would do well to pause before they adopted it. Of the taxes on the cotton wool, and American timber, he should only say what applied equally to the British taxes, that he depreciated every thing which looked like commencing a war of duties with America. We had considerable connections with her, which he hoped would long continue. With respect to the slaves, he understood that the duty on those from British America was to be taken off, but not on those from the United States; and here again the right hon gent, should be sure that he would get a sufficient supply from British America.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, as reference had been made to a speech of his at the time of the Union, he would trouble the Committee with a few words. The right hon. baronet had represented him as having said that the Union would make a saving of 1,000,000 l. in time of war, and 500,000 l. in time of peace; but he should have gone on and stated all he should have stated, that that was not a prophecy, but a mere fact, as it appeared upon the accounts before the House for the three preceding years. He denied that the criterion adopted then was an unjust one, or proved to have been so by any thing that had since happened; on the contrary the impression was, that it was most liberal, and the right hon.
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baronet had said nothing that could invalidate the general proposition. It never was pretended that Ireland could exist in union with England at the rate of her own internal expences; but what would her situation have been if in addition to her own expenditure, she had to defray the imperial charge which the opponents of that measure were willing to subscribe to? He was sure the best course that could be pursued, was to make Ireland a rich country, and to treat her with liberality; and from the present assistance and disposition of parliament towards her, he augured favourably of any future arrangement.
Mr. Fitzgeraldwas surprised to hear the right hon. baronet talk of the oppression of taxes, at a time when the proposal from England was, to take part of the debt upon herself. He maintained that the imports and exports had increased, and denied that Ireland was treated with indifference by the government. He defended his right hon. friend, for adverting to the advantages derived by Ireland from the government, and more particularly that of an enlarged system of public education.
Mr. Grattanobserved, that he had never said the Union would destroy, but that it must check the prosperity of Ireland. Its increase in live stock and raw produce was no more than the necessary result of its natural fertility, which scarcely no government, however bad, could entirely stop, much less the present, which only stood in need of improvement. In support of his opinion, that the financial statements made that night and on recent occasions, were much too sanguine, he observed, that in 1792 Ireland exported more linen than she did at present, and that the rate of her increase was much greater during the ten years from 1782 to 1792, than in the eighteen years since.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not consider Ireland to be in a state of bankruptcy, notwithstanding the opinion which some gentlemen entertained on the subject. There were circumstances which had arisen last year that led to the embarrassment of the finances of that country, and which would render it imprudent to burthen her with any great weight of additional taxation. The resources, however, were abundant, and would ultimately meet the exigencies of the year. Gentlemen had taken a wrong view of the revenue, occasioned, perhaps, by the apparent diminution in her exports; but that,

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it would be seen upon reference, was to be placed to the account of the increasing consumption for the raw material in the army and navy. The deficit in the custom duties was small, compared with the increase in the export of live articles. The means of estimating the real wealth of the Country were generally from the productions of the soil, either in the raw materials or in the agriculture, and then it would be seen that every where exhibited the growing prosperity of Ireland.
Mr. Hutchinsonwas glad to hear the right hon. gent, speak so justly of the capability of Ireland, because it argued a better knowledge of that country than he (Mr. Hutchinson) had been in the habit of imputing to him. Ignorance of Ireland had been the cause of the greater part of her misfortunes, and he wished he could convince that right hon. gent, that the more he knew of the great natural means and resources of that much-gifted country, the better qualified he would be to guide to a prosperous issue the destinies of the empire at large. He had listened with great attention to the statement of the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he confessed he had heard from him for the first time a new principle of political economy. He had not known before that the exportation of cattle was a very conclusive criterion of national prosperity. His prejudices till now had taught him that a large cattle stock arose from a redundant pasture, and that where there was a far greater portion of pasture it was because the people of that country had not yet acquired either the skill or the means of knowing what to do with the soil. The financial state of Ireland was, and had been for a long period, so critical, that he thought the present subject ought to have been laid before them deliberately, and discussed with a patient investigation. Not that he had any intention of trespassing on the Committee, but he felt satisfied that nothing could tend more to the general interests than a general information upon the affairs of Ireland, and therefore it was he regretted that the two Chancellors of the Exchequer did not agree to postpone either budget to another evening. This would have appeared to him desirable, if it had no other effect than that of avoiding the appearance to Ireland of crouding the question of her interests with an unseemly hurry, upon a discussion that might have already exhausted the attention of the House. With respect to the speech of the Irish Chancellor, he
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thought if that right hon. gent, had confined himself merely to his financial statement, and followed the example set by the Chancellor for England, he (Mr. Hutchinson) should not have felt him. self called upon to trouble the Committee with any observation at that time; but when the right hon. gentleman turned aside, and proceeded so far out of his way to vaunt of the growing prosperity of Ireland, and even to panegyrize himself, his colleagues in office, and the English part of the House of Commons, for their uniform attention and devotion to the interests and welfare of Ireland, then did he feel himself called upon, in the name of his countrymen, to protest against any such claim, and utterly to deny it, as being not only unfounded in fact, but in direct contradiction of it. This he stated of his own knowledge. As to the general plan of taxation, he had one vital objection to it, namely, that those were in general its objects of taxation who were least able to bear it. The right hon. gent, appeared to him to seek, in general, for taxes where little could be got, and not even that little without much and severe oppression. If the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer came in a manly way to the discharge of his public duty, be could find more fit and more productive objects for taxation than those which he had as yet selected. Of the tax upon tobacco he disapproved, because he thought it would be at once harsh and unequable in its operation and scanty in its produce. To the tax on timber he had two objections; the first, which was perhaps, the lighter one, was, that it would have the fleet of impeding tide peasantry in the general improvement of their habitations. It was certainly a most desirable object to diffase amongst, the labouring classes of the peasantry that relish for the substantial comforts of neat and well-ordered dwelling-houses, which could not be long maintained without teaching the virtues of a sober, systematic industry, and giving the peasant a consciousness in that property which must be to him, of all others, the most cheering and consolatory—that of the poor man's home. This tax, however, by raising the price of American timber, must raise the price of all other kinds of timber, and of course very considerably obstruct, if not totally defeat, the progress of so desirable an improvement in the condition of the Irish peasant.—But hit second objection

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was yet more serious. At a period in which our relations with America were so critically circumstanced, he thought that the imposition of such a tax as this must be looked upon by that government with considerable jealousy, they might consider it as almost amounting to a declaration of war. This, therefore, he thought to be the moment at which, above all others, the imposition of such a tax was most objectionable. With respect to the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer for England, he was willing to acknowledge his attention to Ireland in that one instance, and was not indisposed to augur well from it. He hailed it as the beginning of his ministerial attempts for her prosperity, and hoped it would soon cease to be the solitary instance of his good will towards Ireland. Thus much he said freely, but more he could not say. He could not go beyond that night. He repeated his declaration, which he had made of his own knowledge, that down to that night, nothing had been done to justify the claim which had been put in upon the gratitude of Ireland. For what was she to be grateful? Not surely because they had so repeatedly refused to redress her wrongs; not because they had been so long deaf to her complaints and indifferent to her interests? I should be sorry (said Mr. Hutchinson) to say any thing offensive to the House, and should be more sorry if truth could offend them. My charge is one which, however widely it may extend, I would more particularly direct against the ministers. I charge them then with a violation of all the solemn compacts entered into betwixt the two countries since the Union. It is an account of long arrears, from 1801 down to the present time. I charge them with indifference, ignorance, and neglect towards Ireland. I have witnessed in this House, session after session, repeated attempts made to better the condition of Ireland; to plant," as it were, the population in the soil, and give them a rooted interest in her greatness; and uniformly have I seen those attempts resisted and defeated in open violation of the public faith which you solemnly pledged to Ireland in exchange for her independence. I charge you with having refused to four millions the privileges you solemnly pledged yourselves to share with them. The gratitude of Ireland is demanded in return for the measures taking to secure the education of her people. I for one resist the de-
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mand—for I myself was an humble instrument in calling upon you to provide in some way for the education of her clergy—that clergy who are to be entrusted with the religion and morals of four millions of your fellow subjects, and, this had been denied me. Let Ireland know the service she has received from you, before her gratitude is thus tauntingly challenged.
Mr. Fosterdistinctly denied that he had ever said that the exportation of cattle was a work of national prosperity. What did the hon. gentleman mean by saying, that if he (Mr. Foster) did his duty in a manly way, he would find another and a more productive tax? he was at a loss to understand the hon. gent. Why could he not speak out? Let him name this better tax, and if he thought it better than his own he would adopt it at once. Would the hon. gentleman name it? Then if he will not, said Mr. Foster, let the people of Ireland blame him and not me, for I have suggested the best tax my judgment could enable me to do, while here is an hon. gentleman who knows a better, and yet refuses to communicate it.
Mr. Shaw(of Dublin) could not see why the right hon. gent, should take upon himself to load his hon. friend with the duties of his office, while he kept all the emoluments to himself. His hon. friend in stating his objections to the measures of the right hon. gent, had done nothing more than he had a right to do. Nor could he believe that every member who in the conscientious discharge of his duty objected to any measure brought before the House, was thereby bound to substitute a better in its place. Mr. Shaw then proceeded to observe upon the items of the new taxes, and to compare the produce of the tax on wine, currants and raisins, &c. at stated periods. The total amount of the produce of the duties on wine was, in the year 1809, 365,276. 11 s. 3d. and for the year 1810 it was but 309,014 l. 18 s. 11 d. The duties on teas for the year 1809 produced 500,946 l. 8s,. 5d. and the same in 1810 produced but 472,009 l. 14 s. The duties on currants and raisins for the year 1809 amounted to the sum of 11,920 l. 2s. 5d. while those for the year 1810 had fallen to 4,77,5l 13 s. 10 d. Here there was certainly no progressive increase, but an evident progressive decrease. He was sorry he could not persuade the right hon. gent, to put an increased duty upon spirits; that,

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indeed, would be a tax productive not only of revenue, but the most beneficial consequences in other respects. The long list that had been read, retailing the number of stills, worms and kegs which had been seized, did not prove that illicit distillation had been suppressed; but that the reduction of the duties had not had the expected effect of suppressing the illicit distillation. He could not join in the sanguine opinion that had been expressed of the great prosperity of Ireland: she had since the. Union increased her debt nearly two-thirds: it was then thirty-three millions, and was now eighty-nine millions.
The several Resolutions were then read and agreed to.