Sitting of 14 May 1811

BOARD OF CONTROULSALARIES BILL.
Mr. R. Dundasrose, agreeably to notice

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to more for leave to bring in a Bill connected with the Salaries of the Board of Controul and other Officers and Clerks in this department of the East India Company's affairs. From the papers already before the House, they would see that the sum appointed for the salaries of the Commissioners of the Board of Controul, at the original establishment of that Board was 5,000 l, a year, and the sum for the salaries of the clerks was limited to 11,000 l. a year. If these sums were esteemed no more than adequate compensations in 1793, the House would readily believe that they were by no means adequate at the present period. The 11,000 l. to the clerks was at first more than sufficient, and a balance arising on this head had accumulated for some years. This sum so accumulated, however, was exhausted, and unless an augmentation was immediately given, the number of clerks now employed must be reduced; This was a thing by no means desirable, and he intended to propose an increase of 1,400 l. or 1,500 l. a year on this head, which, with the sum formerly allowed to accumulate, would amount to about 3,000 l. a year. There was one increase to which he, with reluctance, called the attention of the House, being a proposed increase to the salary of the office which he himself held. It was for the House to determine on this point. He should not have brought it before them, had he not been compelled to bring forward the claims of others which were far more urgent than this claim of increase to the salary of the President of the Board was. There was another thing to which he meant this Bill to extend, namely, to allow the company, with the advice of the Board of Controul, the power of replacing officers who might be dismissed by sentence of court martial, there being a doubt whether the prohibition at present in force was confined to civil offences, or extended to sentences of courts martial also. The only other point to which the Bill was meant to go, was to give the Company the power of taking up ships by private contract in case of emergency only, and that for a single voyage. He concluded by moving, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill for making further provision for the payment of salaries and other charges in the office of the Commissioners for the affairs of India, and for enabling the East India Company to restore to the service of the said company military officers removed therefrom by
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sentences of courts martial, and to authorize the said company, in cases of unforeseen emergency, to take up ships by private contract."
Mr. Creeveyhighly approved of an increase being made to the salary of the president of the board of controul. He did the whole of the business. During the fourteen months that he was connected with that Board, he never heard that they had once met. If the president had 4,000 l. out of the 5,000 l. or even the whole sum, be though it would not be too much.
After a few words from lord Morpeth and lord Castlereagh, leave was given to bring in the Bill.

British and Irish Militias Inter change Bill.
Mr. Secretary Ryderrose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to permit the interchange of the British and Irish Militia respectively. He was convinced that gentlemen would be surprised that a measure like the present had been so long delayed, rather than that it was now proposed. This, he presumed, the House would feel, on the principle that when the two countries were indissolubly united together, it ought to follow that what was the interest and duty of the one, should be so of both. At the same time, the House would not forget, that the power of France had not, till lately, made those gigantic strides towards universal dominion which now marked her course, and rendered less probable a permanent and lasting peace. Whatever opinion gentlemen might entertain as to the mode of proceeding to be adopted by us, and however much they might disapprove of our continental efforts to check the enemy, still there could be but one opinion, as to the necessity of united efforts at home; and this could never be fully attained while our militias were confined to one country. He knew he might be told that they had formerly volunteered an interchange of their services, and that they would be ready to do so again. But this did not apply, and it was to be hoped that no such event as that would again occur. The proposition he had to make did not need instances to illustrate it. But he might refer to the campaign in Portugal of this year, where nothing was now left to be done, but as to which all our fears, anxieties, and expectations were now converted into joy and exultation; and he might ask gentlemen if when they were anxiously waiting to hear of reinforce-

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ments reaching our brave countrymen, from Sicily and from Halifax, they would not have supplied them with pleasure, by dispatching to the relief of our country-men those valuable troops in Ireland, whom, if the present measure had then operated, we might have spared from that country. If so, who would say that we should not now resort to such a measure?
He should not discharge his duty, however, if he confined his view of the present measure merely to a consideration of its military advantages. We should not, even in a military point of view, have done all we were called on to do, if we did not do this. But the moral and political effects to be expected from it were infinitely greater than its military advantages. No man could be blind to the advantages of this plan. No man could talk on such a subject as a true Englishman, without feeling as an Irishman; nor as a true Irishman without feeling as an Englishman. This measure would do away the ignorance under which each nation laboured as to the character of the other. New connections, friendships, and distances would be formed, not confined to one class or degree, but extending generally through both nations. The advantages thus to arise were not to be expected, but were certain. He should feel entirely happy on the subject, were it not that he feared the opposition of a certain class of gentlemen connected with the militia service. No man was more ready to confess the services of this class of gentlemen than he was. When they came, however, to weigh the advantages of the present measure, and to perceive that they were not now called on to make sacrifices equal to those they had formerly made, he hoped they would not oppose what he had now to suggest. If the militia were by this measure to be removed at a greater distance from home than usual, this, he admitted, would be subject deserving of consideration. The fact was, however, that in many cases in England, and almost universally in Scotland, they were sent to a greater distance from home at present than if they were sent to Ireland.—He did not wish that the English militia should be sent to Ireland, and the Irish to England, for an indefinite period. The plan he proposed was, that not more than one-third of either militia should be sent from one country to the other at one time. That the English militia should not continue in Ireland more than two years,
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nor the Irish in England more than three years at one time; that they should not afterwards be sent but in rotation; and that in no event should either be sent to the other country, but by an order from his Majesty. He also proposed that they should have the power of volunteering, and that the Commanders should inform each regiment that their services were purely voluntary. This was the outline of his Bill; and the effect of it would be, that supposing the measure immediately to have operation, in the course of eight years the whole of the English militia will have served in Ireland. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to the above effect.
Mr. Tigheasked, whether the Roman Catholic officer and soldier were to be allowed the free exercise of their religion when in England? This ought to be attended to. If the ministers thought the Irish militia would be so useful in defending the country, they ought to adopt the measures which would remove all impediments to such a desirable object. They ought to put an end to all religious distinctions, and then they would have the whole army disposable for those speculations and objects which the Secretary of State had mentioned.
Mr. Wynn didnot mean to object to the bringing in of the bill, though he saw some difficulties that must attend the adoption of the measure. It ought to have been carried into effect at the time of the Union, or shortly after, when there was an interval of peace. The officers, who might be averse to this plan, might then have retired, without being subject to any reflection upon their conduct. At present, many of them might, by the operation of this bill, be put to very great inconvenience. As a proof that there might be some objection to it, he reminded the right hon. secretary that such a measure had been in contemplation 1804, but had been abandoned, probably on account of the resolutions passed at meetings of lord lieutenants of counties disapproving of it. He allowed that this would increase the disposable force, but so would the sending the militia abroad. This was very different from the volunteering into the line, for there the soldier left his officers, and when the fixed period ended, the matter was at rest. He further observed, that this might have a very injurious effect on the volunteering from the militia, as the soldier must be almost cer-

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tain of being sent abroad as soon as he volunteered. It would also prove a material obstacle to the procuring of men for the militia during the winter;
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that there never had been a negative on the interchange of services. In 1804, the object was to accept the voluntary offers of 10,000 of the Irish militia to serve in England, to replace that number which had volunteered from the English militia into the line. That there were difficulties in the way of the execution of this measure, he admitted; but it generally happened that the difficulties of a plan were in proportion to its utility. The difficulties, how ever, were not insuperable. He was satisfied that there would be a very general disposition in the militia officers to extend the benefit of their services.
Col. Bagwellsaid, that some from habit might be averse to the interchange; but the measure ought not to be given up on that account, considering its extensive utility. He was persuaded there would be a general desire to extend their services, if the measure appeared to be a beneficial one. The officers got their commissions without purchase, and might relinquish them without loss.
Mr. Herbertof Kerry strongly approved of the measure.
Sir John Cox Hippesleystated, that though general orders had been issued not to restrict the Catholic soldiers in the exercise of their religion, they were but partially attended. Even when the Catholic soldiers were permitted to attend their chapels, they were often marched afterwards to a church of the establishment, which, by the canons of their own church, subjects them to excommunication. The observation of his hon. friend (Mr. Tighe) therefore, required some notice. He also stated the fact, that out of 3,000 recruits sent to the depot at the Isle of Wight, only 160 belonged to the established church. Most of the rest, he presumed were Catholics.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the militia of Ireland though in this country, would still be the Irish militia and would, therefore, by law be entitled to the exemptions and privileges which they had in Ireland.
Mr. Whitbreadwas hardly satisfied with this off hand opinion. He wished that the opinions of the law officers of the crown should be taken, that the House might know how the matter stood. If
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there was any doubt as to the law, that doubt ought to be removed. He did not oppose the measure, but it ought to be really and entirely optional with the men and officers, whether to comply or not, without being subject to any reflections in case of refusal. The measure would soon put an end to the qualification required from the militia officers, and for that they ought to be prepared.
Sir John Newportapproved the measure, but thought that every doubt as to the maintenance of the exemptions of the Catholic officers and soldiers ought to be done away by a provision in the bill. In looking over the act for securing the succession, he was far from being satisfied that no legislative enactment on this point was required.
Col. Bustardadverted to the hardship of placing the militia officer in a situation where he must alter the nature of his engagement, or subject himself to the odium of government.
General Tarleton and lord Jocelyn approved of the measure. After a few words from colonel Lemon, the motion was put and carried.

PAPERS RELATING TO TRINIDAD.
Mr. Murryattmoved for a copy of lord Liver-pool's letter to Governor Hislop of Trinidad, refusing to establish the British constitution in that Island, and stating the reasons for that refusal; for the Articles of Capitulation of Trinidad; the commission appointing Mr. Smith, first Alcalde, or chief judge, &c. &c.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he would have opposed the motion if he could have done so-without entering into particulars. It could do no good to bring the subject forward at present, and might do a great deal of harm. As he could not oppose the motion without entering into the subject, he would allow it to pass. He concluded by stating, that if the object was to shew that the British constitution should have been introduced into Trinidad, he would move for a petition of the free people of colour in that island, against the measure presented in July 1810. He would then leave it to the discretion of the hon. gent., whether he would proceed farther in the business.
All the papers were then moved for and granted.

REPORT OF THE BULLION COMMITTEE.
Mr. Whartonreported from the Com-

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mittee of the whole House, to whom it was referred to consider further of the Report which, in the last session of parliament, was made from the Select Committee appointed to enquire into the high price of Bullion, and to take into consideration the state of the circulating medium, and of the exchanges between Great Britain and foreign parts, the Resolutions which they bad directed to be reported to the House; and the same were read. [For the Resolutions see p. 69.] On the motion for the second reading of the said Resolutions,
Mr. Johnstonerose, and declared that he felt very reluctant, after the long and able discussion which had already taken place upon this subject, to offer any thing further to the attention of the House. But having had the honour to be a member of the Bullion Committee, and having also concurred in all the opinions expressed in its Report, he trusted that he might be indulged for a short time with their intention. He apprehended that among all the gentlemen who had spoken on this question, none had sufficiently considered what might be the consequence of a perseverance in our present system. Much bad been very justly said on the virtual breach of faith towards the public creditor, and it was impossible that too much anxiety could be felt on that point. The debate had, however, in his judgment, done much good in drawing from those who opposed the conclusions of the Bullion Report, some concessions which had been obstinately withheld in many of the pamphlets by which that Report had been followed. With only one exception, every member who had joined, in the discussion had disclaimed all belief in or adherence to any imaginary standard, in the constitution of our monied system, and that exception was the noble lord under the gallery (lord Castlereagh), whose criterion was still more fanciful and wild than any he had ever heard of. The standard had been moreover acknowledged to be the precious metals, and the only point in dispute between his hon. friend near him and the right hon. gent. below him was, whether as bullion or, as coin they were the most effectual and undoubted standard. This was a point he thought of no great importance, since coin alone derived its value from the quantity of bullion which it contained. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had also distinctly admitted in his speech on the preceding evening, that a
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diminution of the issues of the Bank would operate favourably on the exchanges, but argued that that was a good overbalanced by the political mischief by which it would be attended. He would touch afterwards on the solidity of this last argument. Something had, too, been acquired to the doctrine of depreciation by the admission, that, as applied to external purchases, our currency had fallen in value. Now, that these external purchases necessarily affected the price of commodities in the home market, was a point very properly noticed immediately by his hon. friend, and he should therefore not dwell upon it. A great distinction had been said to exist between the present alledged excess of paper, and the excess in Ireland, whch was followed by the open establishment of two prices. But what was the cause of this difference? Two prices did not openly prevail in this country, from the terrors of the statute of Edward 6, a statute not applicable to Ireland. It had been stated by the right hon. gent., that our circulating medium amounted before the Bank restriction, to 47,000,000 l. including 36,000,000 l. of specie, and 11,000,000 l. of Bank Paper; and that, at present, we had in circulation, but 3,000,000 l. of specie, and 23,000,000 l. of paper. He had to observe, in the first instance, that this statement entirely overlooked the issues of the country banks, on the amount of which he had some observations to make. He had moved some time ago for the production of several papers from the stamp office, which shewed that in the year 1805 the number of stamps, taken at the lowest sums to the issue of which they were legally applicable when converted into the form of country banknotes, would amount to 10,100,000 l.; in the following year to 10,000,000 l.; in 1807 to 6,000,000 l.; in 180g to 8,000,000 l. and in 1809 to 15,000,000 l. In the last year their amount was 9,000,000 l. These stamps could only be in use, according to the law, for the period of three years. Thus the years 1805–6–7, would prove the whole amount of country notes in circulation to be not less than 26,500,000 l. and to have increased latterly to 29,400,000 l. He was aware that this account might be liable to some deductions, but he believed them to be inconsiderable. The deposits of paper now kept by Bankers fell very far short of what they were when subject to be called on for payments in specie. There was probably at least 6,000,000 l of

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specie originally always in their coffers, to meet any accidental demand for it. This was so much withdrawn from the whole amount of the currency at the former period. Admitting, then, the correctness of the statement that, before the Restriction there was in the country 30,000,000 l. of specie, beside 11,000,000 l. of Bank paper, and 8,000,000 l. of country notes, this deduction would leave the whole amount of the currency at that lime, about 43,000,000 l. The present amount of Bank paper in circulation is stated to be 23,000,000 l. and the specie at 3,000,000 l. which he believed, however, to be less than it actually was. After making an allowance of two millions for paper cancelled or destroyed, we should have twenty-five millions remaining, which after a further allowance for the sum employed as deposits or rests by the country bankers, would constitute a sum total of 48,000,000 l. and an increase of 5,000,000 l. above the whole amount in circulation, antecedent to the restriction. The increase in London alone in paper applicable to the purposes of the whole-sale trade, had been calculated to be from 9 to 13,000,000 l. It ought to be remembered at the same time, that this great increase was contemplated by various recent regulations; the use of paper had been much circumscribed, and the quantity of circulation greatly economised. The clearing house at which the transfers among bankers were made, afforded evidence of this, and the late practice of the Bank of discrediting bills had the same effect in lessening the sum required in circulation. A challenge had been given to his hon. and learned friend to adduce proof of any rise in prices corresponding to the alledged excess of paper, and certainly he fully agreed that if no such rise could be exemplified, that excess could not have taken place. But, as far as his infortion and judgment went, there could not exist a doubt that there was correspondence between them, and that the rise of prices had really gone farther than could be ascribed exclusively to the depreciation of the currency. His learned friend had, in his able speech, particularly referred to the rise of corn, unquestionably the criterion most favourable to his opponents, and had shewn the rise to be in the proportion of 7 to 11. Assuming the scale furnished by the tables of sir G. Shuckburgh, he calculated the proportion to be about 531 to 238.—The right hon. gent.
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had referred to the expences of Greenwich Hospital, and in his opinion that was a document well worth producing. He had seen, in one ingenious pamphlet, a scale of prices, in which it was attempted to shew that there had been no sensible rise. On looking into it, however, he perceived that the writer had, with the exception of tin and indigo, confined himself to articles of colonial produce. The hon. gent. then alluded to the neighbouring countries of Austria, Russia and Sweden, which ought to be a lesson to us. It had been said, that the exchange was affected by the present interruption to commerce; but the truth was. that our commerce, in spite of Buonaparte's decrees, had extended beyond what it had ever been at any antecedent period. In 1809 the exports increased from 11 to 23 millions, and this year the exports could not be less than 19 or 20 millions. The deranged state of the exchange could not therefore be owing to the state of the foreign markets. On one article alone, cotton, the rise was from 9 to 18 millions. A derangement had been talked of as likely to result by leaving the restriction system. It was said we could not carry on war. How had war been carried on for the last 14 or 15 years? Not, surely, from a paper system, but from a surplus produce, and our manufactures; so much the greater our produce than what was consumed by ourselves, we had the greater fund left for war. With respect to the interest of the sum due by the public to the Bank, 150,000 l.; of that interest 100,000 l. might be considered as compensated by the profits made by the Bank in managing government money in their hands. The Bank restriction might have produced good to this country in some such way as the mines of the new world were said, by Mr. Hume, to have benefited Spain at first; but the period was now past, and we were called on to slop. This might be carried too far, as in the human body, when a man rouzed himself to extraordinary exertions, those exertions would be succeeded by lassitude. The depreciation really began in 1797, and if the course of exchange had been sometimes since that period favourable, it was entirely owing to our balance of commerce. We had never mistaken the nature of the depreciation of the currency of our colonies: why, then, should we deal a gentler measure to ourselves than we had dealt out to them? All the banks that had

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followed the system of the Bank of England, had ended in depreciation; and if the Bank of England had stood out longer, it was entirely owing to the greater credit of this country. The hon. gent. concluded with imploring them, therefore, to return to the old and salutary system.
Mr. Fullerrose and said: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member who has just spoken, alluded to my financial knowledge, I am only greatly surprised, and very much obliged to him. But he might as well have talked upon any thing else. For; Mr. Speaker, I don't like this business at all. I think that it is a humbug. I think that it is the greatest humbug that ever was put upon the country since that affair of the duke of York. There is no depreciation; or I know nothing at all about the matter. I can't understand how they would make out that there is any depreciation of the currency of the country. No, Sir, this is all the attempt—this is all the system of the base faction, the cowardly faction, who are undermining the credit of the country. (Cries of Order, order!) Yes, Sir, the faction that originates every thing malevolent to——, but, Sir, I go to other things. Some gentlemen, Sir, say the guinea was once worth 20 s. It is now worth 21 s., and some say it is worth 24 s. Why, then, if this be the case, why not say so? why not speak out? why not raise the guinea at once, to 24 s.? I don't pretend to puzzle myself with these things: but I say, let the country be firm; let the country keep up the credit of its currency, and all will go well. There are various reports as to what goes with the gold; some say it has disappeared; and some say it has been hoarded on the seacoast, in order to send off by the first boats that come, to take it to. the continent. No matter for that. What should hinder our having a circulation of our own, that nobody could take from us? The people would make no objection, they would take any thing for money; they Would take tallow candles for change, if they would not melt in their pockets. If we once adopt this plan, we may defy the enemy as long as we like. We can make coin of leather or oyster-shells; and if we can only keep up its credit for a year, we shall have Buonaparté on his knees at the end of it. He, that tyrant, the emperor of France him-self, will be in despair of ruining us. He will see that nothing can shake the stability, the firmness, the strength of the Bri-
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tish empire. I wish I could see a gentleman here (laughing), I mean, Mr. Speaker, I wish I could see a gentleman in his place (Mr. Sheridan), that was here the other night, when we were talking about play-houses. A great man, a noble person, Sir, I would have given him a hundred play-houses. Sir, he always came forward, he always spoke when there was a mutiny, when there was a riot; whenever, in short, the country was in danger, he forsook his party, and spoke his mind. He would certainly have, spoken now, and I only wish he was. here to speak. He would have put down this mean, conspiring set. (Order, order!); Sir, I wish to set my face against the whole scheme. It grieves me to see the time of the House taken up so many nights one after another, with this tiresome question. It grieves me to see so much labour and sweating about this Bullion Report. Why, Sir, it won't make a bit better figure in the papers, than that nonsensical dispute between you and me.* (Hear! and laughing).
Mr. C. Adamscommenced with a history of the nature of coin; and then proceeded to discuss Mr. Huskisson's pamphlet: he said, that gold had been considered the most precious metal from its rarity, as well as from its ornament and use. It was the most ductile, the most malleable, the most beautiful of all the metals; and it was besides the most hard to be got. The hon. gent. said, he was clearly of opinion, that gold bullion was not the standard of our currency; that mint coin, and mint coin only was; and that paper, as referable to such coin, was not in the smallest degree depreciated.
Mr. Thompsoncontended, that the present difficulties of the country arose out of the state of its foreign trade. If we had no exports for our imports, it was not surprising that the price of bullion should be high and the rate of exchange low. The system of exchanges admitted of almost as much gambling as dealing in the funds. What had taken place upon this question had done much mischief; but he was persuaded that the result of their discussions would remedy the evil. As to the depreciation of paper, he should say, that neither the Bank could pay its notes in specie, nor could any gentleman in England pay one hundredth part of his debts in coin. When he took a promissory note, it was not in the
* See vol. 15, p. 641

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expectation of being paid in cash, but because he knew the individual to be possessed of capital and property. He denied that the directors of the bank could, by limiting their issues, have any effect on the exchange; and if they could, it would hot be desirable that the little gold in the country should be suffered to go to the enemy. He wished the Committee had shewn how the diminution of paper would bring back gold. The country would not have reached its present elevated situation if it had not had an abundant circulating medium. As to the country banks, it was usual with them to keep a large stock of Bank of England notes and government securities, in order to answer any run upon them; it was not to circulate an excess of their paper. He knew a banker, not in want of capital, who wished to increase his issue, and after having tried the experiment for one year, found he had not 1,000 l. more of notes out in consequence, and made not a shilling by the operation. He should agree to any measure for rendering the country banks respectable, but must deny that they had, as they had been charged with doing, issued their paper to excess. The fact of the excess of paper was barely assumed; he could wish to hear it separately discussed. The liberality of the Bank had saved many persons from sinking under the pressure of the times. It was his opinion, that it would be better to go on with the existing system, than by resorting to any untried schemes, to risk the ruin of the trade and commerce of the country.
Mr. Marryatt,in commenting on the speech of an hon. gent. (Mr. Fuller), said, he was willing to leave to that gentleman his oyster shells provided he would give him in return more gold and silver. A noble lord (Castlereagh) in speaking of our northern fellow subjects, the Scots, had called them what no man could deny them to be, a most moral and ingenious people. His proof of that assertion was, however, rather whimsical. He had said that not a peasant could be found in Scotland who would prefer guineas to bank notes; if so, he could assure the noble lord that their countrymen in London were distinguished by a very different sort of magnanimity; for here the difficulty would be to get them to take paper where they could get guineas. The noble lord, however, might have drawn more striking facts from amongst his own countrymen. In Ireland there was no taking up a newspaper, with-
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out seeing advertisements, vying with each other in offering guineas, doubloons, and dollars to sale. He read two of these advertisements from a paper he held in his hand, one signed O'Keefe, 113, Exchange, Cork; the other signed Hely, in the same city, where both professed to offer each of them a higher price for guineas than any other man in Ireland.
Mr. Simeonspoke shortly in denial of the depreciation.
Mr. W. Smithproceeded to state a fact or two, as proofs of the depreciation; first; That a pipe of wine, for which 110 l. was demanded in the ordinary currency, had had been sold for 90 guineas—second, That a man having 600 l, in gold, came to London to purchase certain articles in the way of his business and was allowed 12½ per cent. as the difference. But then it was answered that the guinea had risen. The Bank promised to pay in standard coin, and if the notes had been convertible into this coin, or had been considered as equivalent, then the man possessing the 600 l. in gold would have had no advantage over one having as much in paper. But the difference fully proved the depreciation. After stating that actions would soon be brought for coin, unless the expence, and the sense that each prosecutor might be served in the same way, prevented it; he said that it was in vain for gentlemen to shut their eyes against the fact of depreciation, as the ostrich hid its head and then thought itself secure and unseen. Vigorous measures ought immediately to be taken to check it; the longer the remedy was delayed the more severe would be its operation. He then commented on the conduct of the Bank directors, which had been too much censured by others. They had certainly been placed in a difficult situation: but the cause stated for the restriction was, that they might have specie to answer the public emergencies. There were some grounds to believe that they had not strictly performed this condition, and therefore, their conduct was not deserving of the applause so liberally bestowed upon it. They had made immense profits, as appeared by the great rise in their stock, being from 180 to 280 since the restriction, while the government funds had, during the same period, only risen from 56 to 65, Adverting then to the remedy, he said that the Bank ought, at some loss to the proprietors, to put itself in a situation to resume cash payments, when parliament

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thought it expedient. He could not fix any definite period, neither did he imagine that the restriction ought peremptorily to be continued during the war. It was impossible to say how long that might last. They had not at present even a glimpse through the gloom.
The Resolutions were read a second time, and on the motion that the first be agreed to,
Mr. Horner,for the purpose of having his own Resolutions recorded on the Journals, moved as an Amendment, to leave out all the words after the word, "That," for the purpose of inserting those Resolutions.
This Amendment was negatived without a division.
Mr. Canningasked the right hon. gent. opposite, whether in the mention which he made in his first Resolution of "the right of establishing and regulating the legal money of the kingdom, having been at all times a royal prerogative," he intended to imply that the prerogative was entire and unlimited?
Mr. Vansittartreplied, that his Resolution had been drawn in compliance with the precedent stated in lord Liverpool's work and founded on the authority of sir Matthew Hale and others.
Mr. Canningadverted to the 14 of the King, chapters 70 and 92, regulating the weight and fineness of the coin of the realm.
Mr. Vansittartobserved, that his Resolution did not trench on that act; and repeated that observation in answer to some similar remarks from Mr. Huskisson.
Mr. Rosemaintained, that his right hon. friend's Resolution was not at all contrary to the spirit of the act alluded to.
Mr. Ponsonbycalled the attention of the House to the danger of passing this Resolution. It affirmed, that it had always been the right of the crown to mix the proportions of pure metal and alloy in the coin at its pleasure, and to make it represent what value it pleased. This he denied. There had always been a standard, and in proof of this he referred to the statute of Edward 3. That the crown possessed, and had exercised a right which was nearly equivalent in effect, namely, the right of altering the denomination of the coin, was true. Some of our kings had adopted this method of cheating their subjects, but as lord Liverpool had said, that was an expedient which in the end had never been profitable or honourable to the
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crown. But the prerogatives of the crown were a trust for the benefit of the people, and he beseeched their representatives to consider what it would be to say, that the crown had the power of establishing whatever base money it pleased as the coin of this country. This part of the Resolution was besides unnecessary, because it had no necessary bearing on the question under discussion. The Resolution further stated, that the crown had often exercised this prerogative in concurrence with the States of the Realm. This was a contradiction in terms, for the meaning of a prerogative was, that it might be exercised by the crown without the intervention of parliament. This alleged prerogative was at least sufficiently doubtful to require the House to pause before they passed such a Resolution. If they did pass it, whatever might be their own judgment as to their conduct, no lawyer nor man of sense in the kingdom would approve of it in this instance.
Mr. Bathurst,on the other hand, maintained that the Resolution was perfectly correct, and easily to be comprehended.
Mr. P. Carewfollowed on the same side.
Mr. H. Thorntonthought the Resolution erroneously expressed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas decidedly of opinion, that the declarations respecting the royal prerogative on this subject in his right hon. friend's Resolution, and the Resolution of the hon. and learned gent. were equivalent to each other. In both was expressed what in common law was the prerogative, and the way in which that prerogative was limited by statute. The indulgence with which the gentlemen opposite overlooked this in the hon. and learned gentleman's Resolution, and the acuteness with which they detected it in his right hon. friend's, was a proof of ingenuity rather than of candour.
Mr. Hornerhoped the House would come gravely to a decision on this most important point, without reference to the merits of either set of Resolutions. If his Resolutions contained precisely the same import as his right hon. friend's, why had the right hon. gent. voted against it? As to the authority of lord Hale, he admitted it to be great, but it was opposed by that of Blackstone, who held that the king's prerogative did not extend to the debasement of the current coin. In what part of Hale, too, was his opinion found? It was in a commentary on the reports of cases in Ireland, by sir John Davis. The

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House was, therefore, called on to declare that lo be a royal prerogative, which even prerogative lawyers had considered doubtful. He was happy to see the crown lawyers in their places on this occasion.
The Attorney Generalcontended that all those who had read the Resolution of the hon. and learned gent. must perceive that he had himself subscribed to the opinion of lord Hale. This was the natural arid obvious meaning of his expressions. (Hear, hear! from Mr. Wynn.) He would not be prevented by any vociferation, however offensive, from declaring his opinion. He extolled the value and authority of sir J. Davis's Reports, and observed that the Resolution before the House did not imply that the prerogative was to be exercised without consent of parliament.
Mr. Wynnvindicated, the right of every member to interrupt another when advancing unsupported assertion?:, and observed that the case in Ireland, mentioned in the Reports alluded to, took place at a period when Judges travelled in Ireland in the midst of an army.
Mr. Tierneysaid that as a former Amendment for omitting certain words in the Resolution had been rejected, he should move that there be added to it these words "and that it is expedient to declare it."
Mr. Canningsaid, he was indebted to the right hon. mover for thus giving him an opportunity to remark, that the prerogative of altering the denomination of the coin having been limited and defined by a positive statute, he could not conceive what motive could induce any member to call upon the House to contradict by its Resolutions the written law of the land. If in conformity to such a resolution, a proclamation should appear to-morrow for altering or lowering the standard, even by a single grain, of our currency, any man acting in obedience to it would subject himself to all the penalties of the law. With this conviction, he intended, therefore, if the right hon. gent.'s Amendment should be rejected, to propose in lieu of it the following addition—" and that the weight and fineness of the gold and silver required to be contained in the coins of the realm are fixed and ascertained by H Geo. 3 cap. 96."
Mr. Ponsonby, though fully sensible of the value of lord Hale's opinion, knew that both he and lord Coke sometimes committed mistakes in point of law: and that; he thought that sir Wm. Blackstone,
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who had all their light, was a great authority too. Sir John Davis laid down such doctrines in favour of prerogative occasionally, that if any lawyer in Westminster-hill should think proper to maintain them at present, it would not much conduce to his reputation.
Mr. Tierney's Amendment was then put and negatived.
Mr. Canningthen brought forward his amendment, stating in addition, that the weight of gold and silver was fixed by the 14th Geo. 3, cap. 96, which alter a short conversation was negatived.
The second Resolution was then put and agreed to.
Mr. Tierneyslated it to be his intention to move an amendment to the third Resolution, and he was anxious that the whole question should be adjourned.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeropposed the adjournment.
Mr. Tierneysaid this was unfair, as he had never been able to get an opportunity of delivering his sentiments.
After some further discussion the question was adjourned till to-morrow.