Sitting of 26 March 1811

SPILSBY POOR BILL.
Mr. Chaplinmoved the second reading of the Spilsby Poor Bill, for the purpose of postponing it for a month. He was aware that there were many objectionable clauses in it; but, perhaps, with several alterations, it might be rendered worthy the attention of the House.
Sir S. Romillywas anxious to give every opportunity for improvement, where improvement was possible, but the whole frame and object of the Bill was bad: there was not a single clause but what was liable to objection. He again adverted to some of the most extraordinary provisions of this Bill, which was intended to operate upon twenty united parishes. The directors were empowered to compel all the poor throughout the whole extent of these parishes, whether asking for relief or not, to go into this workhouse. They were to have all the authority of magistrates with respect to such as they should consider vagrants. They were to be allowed to enter houses at their discretion to search for vagrants. They might commit to solitary imprisonment, without limit, the poor which they collected, and administer moderate correction for misbehaviour—in other words, they were to have the power of flogging the poor under their controul, at their own discretion. They might besides, by this Bill, seize all the poor children in the parish, whether calling for relief or not, and bind them apprentices at their discretion. He understood that many of the most respectable inhabitants of Spilsby had never heard of such a Bill, and that they strongly disapproved of its provisions. He next adverted to some very objectionable provisions in acts relating to the poor, that had passed in former sessions, the St. Paul's Shadwell; the St. George's Southwark acts, &c. and

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recommended a more strict attention to such Bills in future. He thought that a remedy to these Workhouse Regulations was urgently required, and concluded by proposing that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
Mr. Ellisonwished, that the motion for a month's postponement should be agreed to, but mentioned that the magistrates of Lincoln had nothing to do with the bill, many of the provisions of which no one could read without indignation.
Mr. Giddycondemned several of the provisions of the Bill, but stated that some of these evils were the necessary effect of the poor laws, which induced the poor to try every artifice to get relief from the parish, and tempted the parish to resort to improper expedients to prevent such demands. He recommended to some person connected with government, to consider of an alteration in the general system.
Mr. Rose, while he acknowledged that our poor laws were in several respects objectionable, was sorry that they should be thus generally censured before there was any thing to adopt in their stead.
Mr. Curwencondemned the principle of the Bill, and gave it as his opinion, that with proper regulations, the poor might be better supported at one-fourth of the present expence.
After a few words from general Tarleton and Mr. G. Vansittart, the Bill was rejected without a division.

CHARITABLE DONATIONS BILL.
Mr. Lockhartmoved for leave to bring in a Bill for the registering and securing of Charitable Donations for the benefit of poor persons in England. A Bill for this purpose had been brought in last session, but dropped on account of the pressure of business at the close. The inquiries that had been formerly made, had proved that there were great abuses in many charitable establishments, and that there was reason to believe many of them had been lost. Altogether they amounted to a great sum, and the object was, by the publicity of registering, that such donations should be preserved and applied to the proper purpose.
Mr. Wilberforceseconded the motion, and expressed his conviction that great good would result from the measure. He had no doubt the Bill would pass, if gentlemen would only consider the importance of the subject.
Sir S. Romillywas a warm friend to the
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object of the Bill, but doubted whether it went far enough to do much good. The great cause of abuses in charities, it ought not to be concealed, was the expence of the remedy. The only remedy was by information in Chancery, in the name of the Attorney General, at the instance of any person who chose to become a relator. Unless he succeeded, he had the costs to pay for his pains; and if he did succeed, he might, to be sure, be reimbursed out of the charity, but that, however, at the distance perhaps of several years. Few, under these circumstances, would become relators, and when they did, the trustees frequently designedly protracted the cause, they having the funds of the charity out of which to pay their expences. The best remedy would be to enable the Chancellor to interfere in a summary way on petition. Most of the abuses would soon be reformed by this simple regulation.
Mr. Wynnsaid a few words in favour of the object of the measure.—Leave was given to bring in the Bill.

IRISH MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES.
Mr. Whartonbrought up the Report of the Committee of Supply respecting the grants voted for Miscellaneous Irish Services. On the question that the Resolutions be now read,
Mr. Hutchinsonrose and said, that there was one Resolution respecting the sum granted in aid of the Roman Catholic Seminary in Ireland, which he could not suffer to pass in the state the House then was. He trusted, therefore, that the right hon. gent. would agree to postpone the further consideration of that Resolution until a fuller attendance could enable them to give it the consideration it called for.
Mr. Fostersaid, that he was not aware that the hon. gentleman's objection to the smallness of the sum would extend that night to opposing the sum itself. Delay might be attended with great inconvenience.
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, that the principle of providing suitably for the education of the Catholic clergy in Ireland, the clergy of four millions, was in his mind a paramount consideration. He would not allow such a Resolution to be hurried through such a House as was then present.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he could not see what object the hon. gentleman could obtain by the delay he required; there could be no doubt that inconvenience might arise from it.
Mr. Fosterwas against further unnecessary delay.
Mr. Hutchinsonthen said, that if he could not convince gentlemen of the propriety of postponing the further consideration of a question of such delicacy and moment to what appeared to him to be a more seasonable opportunity, he must exercise his right, and now call upon the Speaker to——
Mr. Fosterhere rose, and said that he had no objection to postpone the further consideration of that Resolution till tomorrow. The Resolutions were then severally read and agreed to; the one respecting Maynooth College having been postponed till to-morrow.
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, that in the Resolutions just read, they had voted a sum little short of 200,000 l. for Dublin charities, improvements, and other matters of local expenditure connected with Dublin merely, exclusive of one or two charities of a more general nature, as the Foundling, Hibernian, Marine, and Protestant Charter schools; with the exception of these, the above sum was devoted to the local purposes of Dublin, while the sum of 2,500 l. was thought enough for similar objects in the city of Cork, the second city in Ireland, and, perhaps, the first naval station in the empire, to say nothing of its great and extensive commercial interests. It would be far from him to attempt to oppose in any way the liberality of parliament in aid of the charities or interests of Dublin; but he could not help thinking, that the disproportion between the grant of 200,000 l. to the one place, and 2,500 l. to the other, was out of all rule, and by no means to be warranted by any corresponding difference between the respective claims of those two great cities. The government had been annually expending vast sums upon the fortress of Spike Island, near Cork, whether judiciously or not remained yet to be proved. The object of this work, was avowedly public and general, not local, not to be considered as done for Cork only, or affecting it merely. He begged leave. however, to throw out for the future consideration of ministers, the propriety of applying some portion of those large grants to the opening the communication between that fortress and the city of Cork. This, he was prepared to state, could be effected by a few thou-sand pounds—by a very small portion of the thousands wasted in obsolete Dublin proclamations—and if this communication
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was opened, it would be not only of great and extensive public utility, but of signal local benefit to the city of Cork—a consideration which, he hoped, would ever have due weight with the minister for Ireland.
Mr. Fosterdenied that the 200,000 l. was granted to Dublin solely. The Found ling and other Institutions were of general, not local or Dublin interest. Besides, if Cork wanted help, was she not able to help herself—if she wanted aid, she might come to parliament and ask it.
Mr. Hutchinsonreplied, that he had not said that the whole sum was devoted to the mere local benefit of Dublin, so far from saying this, he had excepted the charities mentioned by the right hon. gent. He spoke generally. He repeated, that he thought much less money would be more advantageously expended in the instance he had given. He expressed his hope that the right hon. gent would think it worthy of some consideration hereafter, and would also agree to contribute more largely than parliament had yet done to the Cork charities. He knew them to be excellent institutions, and earnestly trusted they would not be let to fall into decay for the want of that timely aid which he was sorry to say they stood much in need of. He hoped that the Irish giants for the future would not in general be so much confined to the capital.
The other Orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned.