Sitting of 22 March 1811

NAVY ESTIMATES. ADMIRALTY COURT.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. Yorkesaid it had been his intention on a former day to move for the sum necessary for the Ordinaries of the Navy, which he had divided into three parts, under one resolution. This, however, through a mistake, bad not been done;

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he had therefore now to move, That a sum not exceeding 1,157,751 l, be granted for the Ordinaries of the Navy.
Sir William Scottrose in consequence of a charge which had been preferred on a former day against the Court over which he had the honour to preside. Considering the situation in which he stood, he thought justice should make every member who might have any charge to prefer against him, in his official capacity, give notice of such an intention. Out of the multitude of causes which had come before him, it was impossible for him to remember every individual case; and if such notice were not given, he might be taken by surprise, and be unable to reply to such charge when made, though it might be as unfounded as those which he had formerly refuted, or as unfounded as he trusted to make that now brought forward appear. That it was a great many years since the prizes to which allusion had been made were taken, it was unnecessary to call witnesses to prove. He remembered the captures, which were six in number, were made in the year 1799. This he would admit, but this was not sufficient to prove that any improper delay had originated in the Admiralty Court. The delay might have been caused by the parties themselves, as was the case in a cause which had been before him that very day. It might happen, that such delays had occurred in a variety of instances, where no party whatever could be blamed. It was to be remembered, that the suitors were persons employed in the service of their country, who might be at such a distance that they could not be communicated with on the subject; or merchants residing in foreign parts. The witnesses necessary to elucidate the business might be in the same situation—might be dispersed all over the world. From these circumstances delay was often unavoidable, and little as it was desired, without it no correct administration of justice could be obtained. The Court of Admiralty sat not merely for the purpose of examining the claims which might be made for prize-money, but likewise to protect foreign and British merchants; to restore property which had been improperly seized, and to do justice to ail parties. It might sometimes happen, and it frequently did, that some of the parties concerned were resident in Silesia, in Bavaria, in Bohemia, and in the remotest parts of the globe. It was certainly desirable that the money to be distributed
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should find its way into the pockets of the captors as soon as possible, but still it was necessary to allow a proper time to elapse before such a distribution was made, for the proper security of neutral property. With respect to the facts of the present case, it was stated that the ships had been taken at the battle of Camperdown. This was not correct, as they were taken two years after that action, during the subsequent blockade of the Texel. It had been agreed, that only one of the ships should be proceeded against in the prize court, to save the expence necessarily attendant on proceeding against the other five. A great variety of claims were put in by different merchants, and some by persons residing in Silesia, Bohemia, Trieste, and Fiume. Much of the delay complained of was occasioned by the time taken up to investigate these several claims. A great deal of time had been so occupied. He believed the investigation commenced at about the end of the year 1799, and the final adjudication of all claims took place on the 13th of May 1801. The money was left to be distributed, and if the agents did not act properly, it was not the fault of the Admiralty Court, as they did not employ those agents. These persons were employed by the parties themselves,' and with them the court had nothing to do. After the condemnation of the vessels, it so happened, that a great question arose among the gentlemen of the navy as to the persons entitled to the benefit. This was a question which could not run parallel with the other. It was of no use agitating this till the other was settled, and therefore both could not be decided at the same time. After much discussion and negociation, it was at last agreed to take the opinion of the proper court on the subject. An application was in consequence made to the Court of Admiralty, with an agreement that the decision in this case should determine all others; the cause came on in the usual way, and in July 1803, the court gave an opinion, but it did not sign its final judgment, though he strongly and distinctly expressed his sentiments on this ground. There was at that time another question respecting the blockading squadron off Cadiz, the circumstances of which were nearly the same, and the case altogether similar, before the Lords Commissioners of appeal. It was thought better for the parties to take the final decision from the Court of Appeal, rather than from the Court of Admiralty. In the

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mean time, it was proposed that the money (which had been all the time at interest), should be vested in Exchequer Bills. He did not know whether or not this was good advice, but he knew that it was most agreeable to all the parties concerned. The decision was in consequence referred to the Court of Appeal by universal consent. The case before them, was pending there for six years. On the face of this, it might appear that there were some grounds for arraigning the proceedings in that Court. This was not his opinion, but if such were the fact, the Admiralty Court had nothing to do with it; but it had been the fate of that court, for some years past, to be frequently censured for that with which it had nothing to do. Last year there was a gallant officer, now he hoped better employed, both for his own credit and the service of the country, who had made certain charges against the Admiralty which had been repeated at taverns, coffee-houses, and alehouses. And what had those charges come to at last? They had merely proved to have been founded on certain bargains made between the agents of the Crown, and the agents of private persons out of court, with which the Admiralty had no more to do than any-other court of justice had to do with any case that might be taken out of it by the consent of the parties concerned. With the delays which had occurred in the Court of Appeal, the Admiralty Court had no more to do, than the Court of King's Bench had to do with the delays which might-occur with the writs of error carried up to the House of Lords. If, then, there was any cause for blame, it ought not to be laid, under such circumstances, at the Admiralty's door. He begged, however, to say, he did not think such delays were fairly chargeable to the Lords Commissioners of Appeals. He knew what imputations had been thrown out against them; but it ought to be remembered, that in the eventful period of the last sixteen years, from the situation in which this country had been placed with others, there had been a greater number of important questions before them than had arisen for a century before. It should also be remembered, that they received all the appeals from every court in the kingdom. All this devolved on four or five members of the Privy Council, who sought no remuneration for their labours, and who received none but those injurious censures frequently launched against their proceed-
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ings. When all this was considered, and he stated to the House, that after so many years there were not more than twenty or thirty appeals remaining before them of all that had been made, though it might hare happened that delays in some instances had taken place, still it must be felt that they were very far from deserving censure. The case had not been six months before them when the subject was taken up. It happened that the necessary witnesses were then in the Mediterranean. Commissioners were obliged to be sent out to Malta and other places, to examine those witnesses wherever they could be found. It was taken up just before Christmas in the year 1808, and in six months after the cause was determined.—He then proceeded to justify the Court of Admiralty in not proceeding earlier than it usually did to try prize causes. In the present extended scale of maritime warfare in which we were engaged, and which was the cause of our making captures in all parts of the globe, it was necessary that twelve months at least should elapse before a distribution took place, otherwise a man's property might be captured and condemned before he knew any thing at all of the matter. When the money was ready to be distributed, a new question arose among the gentlemen of the navy, and a third suit was instituted, which the Admiralty Court was obliged to entertain. This caused new delays, which it was obvious they had not the power to avoid, which protracted the case till last November. He then explained the causes of the delays which had subsequently taken place, and concluded with hoping that such attacks would not again be made on slight grounds, nor without previous inquiry. He hoped, before such charges were again preferred, that the whole of the circumstances would betaken into consideration, that it would be remembered who the suitors were. They were brave men, but the lower classes had warm passions, and might grow discontented if they were told their interests were neglected by the Admiralty. They might become dissatisfied without reason, and the most fatal consequences must follow. It should be recollected, the suitors, on the other hand, were subjects of neutral nations, and that consequently, to do justice without delay, was unavoidable.
Mr. Rosesaid, it had struck him as an, extraordinary circumstance that no distribution bad taken, place for ten years, On

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looking, however, into the subject, he had the satisfaction to find that no delay had occurred since that which originated in merciful consideration. When a similar case was before the Court of Appeal, if his right hon. friend had decided on the case sooner, it would have occasioned a great expence to the parties, without accelerating the ultimate decision one single hour. Whatever might be thought by others, the parties concerned were obliged by the delay of his right hon. friend. The greatest care had been taken of the interests of the captors. On the condemnation of the prize, in 1799, when Mr. Hunter found there was likely to be some delay, he immediately put the money out to interest. It had remained at interest all the time; and he believed there was no other country in the world where justice was administered, not only with such purity, but with such dispatch. If the hon. admiral thought the interests of the navy were neglected, he trusted he should, in a few minutes, prove the contrary to be the fact. Since the passing of the act, in June 1809, nine thousand cases had been made out under his immediate direction, and so arranged, that if any boatsman or other person, belonging to any ship, applied to him respecting the prize-money to which he might think himself intitled, he could in one hour let him know when the prize was condemned, what the amount of his share, and give him, in fine, all the requisite information on the subject. Six hundred of these cases had been made out by himself. Their amount in money was 4,000,000 l. sterling. He had exerted himself to the utmost to benefit the captors, by putting their money out to interest and relieving them from the extortion of Agents. The annual captures amounted on the average to 1,000,000 l. In the course of the war, therefore, they were 7,000,000 l. of which but a small part had been out at interest for the captors. Five millions four hundred thousand pounds had been put out to interest by the agents for their own benefit. One agent alone, had had as much as 300,000 l. out at interest to his own advantage. This had been put a stop to, and the benefit transferred to the captors. The right hon. gent. then proceeded to enumerate the several evils which he had exerted himself to correct. In the charges of agents accounts, he had saved 12,000 l. per year to the captors. He saved them 50,000 l. per year salvage. The droits
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amounting to 2,000,000 l. which were not taken cognizance of, he had caused to be regularly registered. He had also laboured to make a satisfactory arrangement with respect to conjoint grants, grants to the army and navy. The right hon. gentleman proceeded to make a statement of what he had effected in the various departments of the navy. He had most anxiously laboured to promote the interest of the nary in every respect He had therefore felt hurt, when he found that, notwithstanding all he had done, in sinuations were still thrown out, that the welfare of the navy was not attended to. He hoped the gallant Admiral would bear in mind what had fallen from his right honourable friend, and not say that which might tend to raise a clamour among the lower classes in the service. When such statements were thrown out respecting the Prize Court, the persons conceiving them selves entitled to prize-money were so inflamed, that it was impossible to make them listen to the true state of the case. They might reason with them to all eternity without effect. He was conscious their claims had never been neglected and he thought the gallant Admiral could hardly name a sailor, or a sailor's father, mother or relation, who had written to him without obtaining prompt attention and a proper answer. If they were in London his doors were always open to them, and he saw them himself, heard their complaints, and gave them all the information in his power. They were, however, so very difficult to convince of that which was right, alter such statements as those he had before alluded to had gone abroad, that it was most desirable such should not be made upon slight grounds.
Sir Charles Polesaid, if either of the right hon. gentlemen opposite, who thought proper to complain so loudly this night, had been in their places when he delivered his sentiments on the Navy Estimates, they would have seen with how little justice they now attacked him; he had then stated, with a feeling of extreme satisfaction, the correctness and œconomy with which those estimates had been calculated; they would have heard him ex press his thanks, at the clear and per spicuous manner in which they had been explained to the Committee; they might have heard him pay his humble tribute of applause to the First Lord of the Admiralty, for several other measures, which

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he (sir C. P.) deemed useful and advantageous to the naval service; they would have heard him state, that he believed the First Lord had inspired the service with a confidence that was a tower of strength to the country, but he had, at the same time, expressed his regret that the delays and consequent abuses of the Court of Admiralty was still a blot which required to be removed; and, to elucidate this, he exemplified, as one of the many instances, the blockading squadron, under the orders of lord Duncan, in 1799, which had captured several ships who were acting in defiance of the blockade, that the proceeds of the ships so captured, at that period, were not distributed at this moment, 1811: he stated this as a grievance which ought, with many of the same kind, to be inquired into and corrected; he did not make it a charge against the right hon. and learned judge of the Admiralty Court, nor did he state it cither in tone or temper as such, but as one of those evils which called aloud for a remedy. He now thanked the right hon. gent. for the opportunity of repeating it, and he would do so over and over again, either here or elsewhere; he did it without the smallest hostility towards any man; much of personal animadversion had been introduced into this debate by the learned Judge; he hoped he might be excused, if he alluded to it, and assured the Committee, that nothing but the imperious sense of duty to his country, and affection to the service, could induce him to put himself forward and render himself so obnoxious to the right hon. gent. and his numerous friends. He would ask, what possible motive could be have, but the conviction of his mind that he was doing his duty as a member of that House, where he was entitled to make such observations as he thought useful, and founded in justice? With these sentiments, he should continue to repeat his observations whenever the interests of the navy were discussed. Having no personal charge to make, he should not feel it necessary to send for the learned Judge all over the town to acquaint him, what he might have known as well as himself, that the Navy Estimates were to be discussed on a given day, and that it was probable that part of the naval service, which regards the interests of the officer and seamen in prize causes, might be noticed; it was impossible they could be noticed by him, without expressing his regrets, that the evils, so long and so loudly mentioned,
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were not remedied. The learned Judge, in his speech this night, had been pleased to introduce the state of Algiers and Tunis: was the learned Judge aware how near he approached to the government of those states on the present occasion, when he endeavours to restrain members of this House from making just and constitutional observations on grievances which exist in a most important part of the state? The right hon. and learned Judge had this night confessed all that he (sir C. P.) complained of; namely, that a blockading squadron, after long and severe cruizing, had captured ships in 1799; and that, when we are now speaking in March 1811, the British fleet had not reaped the re ward of their vigilance and zeal held out to them by their Sovereign and their country. It was no excuse to his mind, and he was sure it must be a very unsatisfactory answer to the fleet, to be told, that the judge is to wait ten years for the decision of another court, who will then have a similar cause to decide on. If this was to be deemed a valid excuse for with holding from the navy their prize money, there never would be wanting persons to urge it; the delays attendant on the Admiralty Court alone are quite sufficient without resorting to the Court of Appeals, to wait ten years until a case, said to be similar, was decided; this he thought rather too severe a trial of the patience of the fleet. Will the Committee think it right? nay, Sir, will they wonder if discontent and dissatisfaction rear its formidable head? The learned Judge's ingenuity had carried him to Silesia and to South America, from the north to the south pole, for claimants and for arguments, and he had brought them all into court this night; but was the delay of this question to be attributed to neutral claimants? The learned Judge well knows all their interests were decided in a few months; this was a case of breach of blockade, when, after zealous, persevering and fatiguing services, the squadron were taught to expect the harvest of their labour, they met with mortification and disappointment; now that the delay is admitted, is confessed by the learned Judge, he (sir C. P.) trusted the interests of 145,000 men would be more justly protected in future. He must again be excused, if he repeated to the Committee, that the insinuations of unfairness, thrown out against him, would have no effect on his mind, and as long as he was a member of that House,

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he should continue to do his utmost to protect the interests of that class of his Majesty's subjects, now under discussion, whom he thought most deserving of support; such he felt to be his public duty, and it was not less his inclination, feeling, as he did, every possible attachment for them; he repeated again, he would say he had no private motive for attacking any part of the conduct of the learned Judge, and he could not possibly have the smallest degree of hostility towards a man who was so deservedly esteemed in his public and private life, whose splendid talents were the admiration of all. He trusted he should not again be suspected of any other motive than his country's welfare in bringing these subjects forward; it was of the highest importance to the existence of this country, that the fleet should have no just cause for dissatisfaction; those gentlemen who are in the habit of considering how much more numerous the governed are than the governors, will think with him, that it is as well that public opinion and justice should be with us; and do those gentlemen flatter themselves that the sailor is ignorant of the delays, and of the evils and injustice which usually attend delay? Do they think I am betraying a secret? they know but little of the class of men I allude to, if they do suppose this to be the case. The right hon. the Treasurer of the Navy hath this night developed abuses, hath stated frauds and impositions on the British seamen, such as were never before detailed to this House; and will the Committee shut their eyes to them? Are they prepared to say, the seamen have not had cause of complaint? It is immaterial to my present view of the question, whether the cause rests with the agents or with the Admiralty Courts. The interests of the seamen are neglected; and my opinion still is, that the fault lays with the Court; but the evils exist, and ought to be cured.
Mr. Rosedenied that he had mentioned 9,000 cases of abuse. He had stated that that number of cases had been registered by him; that 600 had been carefully investigated, and that some abuses had been discovered; but none had been attributable to the Admiralty Court. It was impossible for that Court to drag parties forward against their will. In the whole of the cases which he had examined, there was not an instance in which blame was attributable to any officer of the Admiralty Court, much less to the Judge. The
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Proctor had not been in any way blame-able. The vessels had been condemned the same year they were brought before the Court; and the only ground of delay was, the fresh claims by officers of the navy, which rendered it impossible to procure the decision of the Court of Appeal sooner. Of all the courts in the world of a similar description, the Court of Admiralty here was the most expeditious; and its decisions were not only just, but had ex-cited the admiration of the whole world.
Sir C. Polesaid, he had admitted that the ships had been condemned in 1799, but still the fact was undeniable, that, to this day, the seamen had not got their money.
Mr. Stephen, when he considered the nature and tendency of such charges preferred against the Admiralty Court—while he subscribed to the opinion that they might produce mutiny, riot, and blow the world into a flame, as the honourable admiral had expressed it, he could not forbear following up what had been so distinctly said by his right, hon. and learned friend, with a few remarks within his own knowledge. Nobody had charged the hon. admiral with having done any thing unparliamentary; though he should hope that what was unfair, inexpedient, and dangerous, could not be very parliamentary. But if it was parliamentary to have made the charge, he trusted, unfounded as it was, that it was equally parliamentary to repel it. He really thought that, after the candid, temperate, full and clear explanation given by his right hon. and learned friend, the hon. admiral himself would have felt himself bound to be the first in apologizing for the error into which he had fallen. Considering the consequences that might result from precipate charges of this nature, he thought the hon. admiral would have seen the propriety of making inquiry before he brought them forward in this public manner, and at a time when those were not in the House who could have given the requisite answer. Whatever might be required by strict parliamentary form, he apprehended that this would have been but fair and candid, as well as polite. What was the charge? Why, that the gallant seamen who had fought under lord Duncan, had been kept out of their prize-money, the reward of their valour, for 12 years, in consequence of the delays of the court of admiralty—and upon this point, notwithstanding the complete explanation of the

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Judge, the hon. admiral, it appeared, was not yet satisfied. There were some gentlemen now in the House who had not heard his right hon. and learned friend's explanation, otherwise, he should probably have thought it unnecessary to say any thing. As it was, however, he would very briefly advert to the heads of the defence. The fact had been admitted, that the judge had decided the same year that the causes were brought into court, though questions as to neutral property had intermixed with the rest. But a delay had taken place in consequence of a dispute between the associated blockading squadrons, as to their shares of the prize-money. The hon. admiral talked of riots: but what would he have said, if the judge, in order to dispatch the cause, had rejected these claims. A negociation had been commenced in order to settle these claims among themselves, but this had unfortunately failed. The opinion of the learned judge had been early declared, as early as the evidence could possibly be collected; but the same question was before the court of appeal, in another cause, as to a blockade before Cadiz; and therefore he had suspended the entering of judgment till that cause in the Appeal Court had been decided. Why had he done so? In order to save the parties the expence of an appeal, which would most certainly have been preferred. This was in fact no delay; it was entirely a favour to the suitors. The hon. baronet had said, that out of six causes, only one had been carried forward. True: but this, too, was to save expence. The question was the same in all; and the five, therefore, waited the event of one. There was no delay, however, on this account. It was surely a prevention as far as possible of vexation and delay in the lower and higher courts. Then the hon. baronet adverted to the delay before the appeal court, but there, too, the court was free from blame. The delay arose from the disputes among the officers of the navy. It. was not the court, but he himself and the late learned and excellent man Dr. Lawrence, who were to blame, if there was blame any where. But the fact was, they could not call for the judgment of the court sooner. There was a question, whether certain ships were in sight at the time of the capture. The matter was litigated so closely by the navy, that they had to send out commissions to the Mediterranean for evidence. Having prepared the case as soon as they
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could for decision, the court gave sentence in six months after. Yet for all this delay, arising solely from the nature of the case and the pertinacious manner in which the naval officers themselves litigated the subject, the right hon. and learned Judge of the Admiralty was blamed by the hon. Admiral—blamed for his conduct in a cause which was, on the contrary, throughout, a proof of his extraordinary merit. This might be parliamentary, but certain it was, it might be attended with dangerous consequences. Within ten days after the decision of the appeal case, the Judge of the Admiralty had decided. But then a fresh cause of delay arose from the claims of captain Finlay of the Scorpion. The hon. baronet asked, why this claim had not been rejected? The reason was, that the judge had no authority to reject it without examination. Provision had been made in the prize act, lately passed, for the refusal of such claims as had not been preferred in time when the opportunity existed. But this related to a capture in 1799, before the act in question had been passed. The hon. admiral had given great credit to the Treasurer of the Navy for his improvements with respect to agents, &c. Did he not know that all these had been the effect of the suggestion and parliamentary labours of his right hon. and learned friend? The hon. admiral appeared to have some prepossession on this subject, of which it would be proper for him to get rid. It ought to be recollected, that all these charges were conveyed to our gallant seamen, well meaning men; but of warm passions, and, in some instances too, no doubt, but ill informed: and, as it had been emphatically said, a rot might be produced in the wooden walls of Old England, he hoped that, in future, the hon. baronet would take care to inquire, otherwise he might do more harm than all his gallantry and services would suffice to repair or compensate.
Mr. Fremantlesaid, that after the clear, manly, and eloquent explanation of the right hon. Judge of the Court of Admiralty he was perfectly satisfied, as he hoped the country and navy would also be. The interests of the navy, he allowed, should be held most dear, and watched over with great vigilance, but the gallant Admiral would be found in the present, as in former cases, to have been led into mistake by his zeal. The hon. baronet had laid it down as a principle, that delay was an abuse; but to him it appeared that there

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were many circumstances in which delay would not be an abuse, but, on the contrary, the greatest benefit. The faults of the agents, he contended, should not be confounded with that of the Courts of Admiralty; and the decisions of the Judge upon the law of nations had done more to hold up this country to the admiration of Europe than any other circumstance. With repect to the King's Proctor, his conduct had been already so ably defended, that he should say nothing in addition; but he was persuaded, that whenever it became the subject of inquiry, he would be found to have acted up to his duty, and to deserve the applause of the House and of the country.
Mr. Johnstonesaid he agreed in the panegyric pronounced upon the learned Judge of the Court of Admiralty; but still he could not agree that the hon. baronet was wrong in bringing forward a case of this description which afforded a prima facie ground of charge, on the contrary, he did no more than discharge his duty to the country and the service. Besides, it did not appear to him that the hon. baronet bad selected any individual, or resorted to any violent language. It had always struck him as a great grievance that there should be so great a delay in the prize courts. At one time the Court of Appeal stood still for twelve months, only because one of the judges thought proper to absent himself; and it was a fact, that out of seven millions captured at different times, three millions were restored to other countries as unjust captures. Much he allowed had been done but still not enough.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the hon. member who had just sat down, had told them that the Court of Appeal required reform, and yet, he also told them, what certainly redounded not a little to the honour of that Court, that in a time of war, when additional causes were perpetually flowing in, the number of arrears had been reduced. It was proper to state what was the fact. The arrears were so far reduced that at present not more than twenty-five causes were in the court, which was, properly speaking, no arrear at all. The grievances which he stated neutrals to labour under no longer exist, and directly the reverse was the fact. In attempting, therefore, to reform a Court that had had the vigour to wipe away so great an arrear, they might alter, but could hardly amend it. It seemed rather strange to him that the hon. gent. should think
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this accusation honourable to the gallant admiral, and that it was prima facie requisite. Perhaps it would have looked as well had the gallant admiral made some previous inquiry before. bringing such a charge; however, what astonished him was, that after all the explanation which was given, and certainly most satisfactory explanation to the mind of every man who heard it, the gallant admiral should still repeat his charge, and complain of an abusive delay. He expected from that gallant admiral that, after hearing that explanation, he would express his conviction and his regret at having made the charge, not so much on account of his right hon. friend, whose character could not be affected by it, but for the sake of 140,000 men, on whose minds the most dangerous impressions might be produced by it, and who ought to be the objects of all the attention and all the consideration of the country which they serve.
Sir Francis Burdettsaid, that they had heard from the Treasurer of the Navy of the existence of abuses, for the detection of which that gentleman doubtless very deservedly took credit. Whatever might be due to the Treasurer of the Navy and to the right hon. Judge for the measures of reform introduced by them, be had no doubt that much also was due to the gallant admiral who on former occasions had frequently brought these subjects before the House. It would not be easy perhaps to persuade gentlemen of the learned professions, and particularly the learned master in chancery, of the evils of delay. Though these gentlemen might panegyrize one another, as was quite common on occasions like the present, though the commendation might be deserved, this was altogether beside the question. What was it to the gentlemen of the navy or seamen, that the Judge of the Admiralty was possessed of so great ability, and was so free from blame, when they were, notwithstanding, oppressed with a ruinous delay. For the delay of 12 years perhaps nobody was to blame, and the hon. bart. imputed no blame to any one. The country was, however, greatly indebted to persons who like the hon. bart. exposed themselves to obloquy by bringing forward grievances. Whether these grievances were real or imaginary, it was generally seen that some amelioration was the result of the inquiry, whoever might afterwards take credit for: that amelioration. The right hon. gent. and the Treasurer of the Navy were there-

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fore, in his opinion, much indebted to the gallant admiral, who brought forward from time to time these charges; and in his opinion he ought not to have been the subject of so much hostile animadversion.
Mr. Crokeragreed that it would produce benefits, but of a very different nature from those alluded to by the hon. baronet. The charge had been brought forward, and refuted to the satisfaction of almost every one in the House; and it was not surprising that the hon. baronet, who prided himself so much on standing alone, should felicitate the gallant admiral upon his singularity also. He insisted that the delay was occasioned by the officers and sailors of the navy.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that alter the tone and manner of the hon. gent. who had just sat down, it was impossible to remain quite silent. It was rather an odd charge to make against the hon. baronet, to say, that he was so fond of solitude himself, it was no wonder that he should congratulate another upon being so; but the hon. gent. should have recollected, that one and one make two, and that if they both agreed, they were neither of them likely to be solitary. He confessed that the explanation of the learned Judge, as far as his information on such subjects enabled him to decide, was satisfactory; but the hon. baronet had done much good to the country and the navy, and should not confess that he was wrong if he did not feel it nor offer praise where he did not believe it to be due. He held that the hon. gent. had taken a false view of what had fallen from the hon. baronet.
Mr. Crokersaid, he held that the hon. gent. had taken a false view of what had fallen from him: he had charged him with having applied epithets to the hon. baronet, which he applied only to the course which the hon. bart, recommended.
Sir C. Polesaid, he hoped the explanation given would be satisfactory to the country, but it was not so to him; for no explanation could be satisfactory in accounting for a delay of twelve years. If he had suffered the case to pass unnoticed, he should have been guilty of neglecting his duty.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
Mr. Whartonthen moved, that a sum not exceeding 482,025 l. be granted for the ex-pences of the Barrack Department for the year 1811.
Mr. Bankswished to know from the hon. gent. what sum would be necessary
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to carry certain parts of the barrack works into effect? The estimate stated that a sum of 100,000 l. would be required for the Life Guards barracks.
Mr. Whartonreplied, that the whole sum necessary for those particular barracks would be 131,000 l. Among the other items there were 12,000 l. for the erection of depots for the French prisoners/of whom there were a great increase. There was also a sum of 54,000 l. included in the estimate for the Isle of Wight barracks, and a sum of about 25,000 l. for the islands of Jersey and Guernsey. He was not particularly informed as to some of the other items, but would obtain information in the course of the evening.
Mr. Bankeshoped the hon. gent. would not come unprepared with his information when the Report was brought up. He noticed one of the items respecting the barracks at Winchester, in which a sum of 15,000 l. was staled as requisite for completing those barracks. He had procured from the barrack office an estimate of the expence, and he found that the original demand was 64,800 l. of which 57,800 l. had been paid, consequently only 7,000 l. was wanting. He therefore must again repeat, that the hon. gent. had so little information to give, and the public were so much burthened with the expences for barracks, that he hoped and expected he would be in a situation to give the most satisfactory information upon the bringing up of the Report.
The Chancellor of the Exchequernoticing the warmth which his hon. friend had betrayed, when requiring satisfactory information, conceived that the anger and passion which he had exercised towards his hon. friend (Mr. Wharton) was not called for. He assured his hon. friend that every attention to economy, and to the curtailing of expences, in the barrack department, was paid by the head of it (Mr. Osborne Markham), at the same time, his hon. friend might perhaps find, that he had not been so accurately informed as he seemed to imagine. Considering the rise in the price of materials since the barracks at Winchester were begun, the difference of 7,000 l. in the estimate, could not be considered as very great.
Mr. Bankesdenied that he had used either warmth or anger when desiring information, nor did he wish to reflect on the barrack board; he would give his testimony of approbation to the public conduct of Mr. Markham.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas well assured that his hon. friend would not have assumed the dictatorial tone which he had assumed, unless he had been put off his guard. He was glad, however, to extract from him the acknowledgment of the merit of the head of the barrack department.
Mr. Whitbreadthought the hon. gent. and the House were entitled to satisfactory information, before they voted such large sums of the public money.
Mr. Whartonput it to the Committee, whether he had failed in giving the necessary information. He was not used to be talked to in the dictatorial manner which the hon. gent. had evinced; his tone and manner (and he hoped in saying so, he did not speak unparliamentary) were such as was not fit to address towards him. He had distinctly stated that the sums alluded to were the estimated sums, and not for any work in progress.
The Resolution was then agreed to.

COMMERCIAL CREDIT BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this Bill,
Mr. Whitbreadrose and stated, that though the time of night at which this motion was made, the nature of the debate which had preceded it, and the state of the House, were all extremely discouraging circumstances, still he could not be persuaded to suffer the present Bill to pass without stating what were his impressions on the subject; and he also thought himself in candour bound to say, having no wish to take gentlemen on the other side by surprise, that he should take the sense of the House upon it, if the House should be in a state to admit of that being done. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not done what he ought to have done, and what he understood, that he had promised to do. He had omitted to introduce a clause into the Bill, restraining the commissioners and also all persons who were members of that House, from participating in the benefits to be derived from the Bill. The Commissioners might be restrained from any such participation, by a feeling of duty, but still a clause to that effect could not be the less proper. To his conception too, members of that House should be excluded, even in a constitutional point of view. If not, this was a new way of creating influence for the crown. He did not impute to the right hon. gent. any idea of influence having been used by him to introduce this mea-
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sure into parliament; but still such a thing was possible; and it was also apparent, that all persons who might, in similar circumstances, come to him, or to any other minister, requesting his influence in carrying through such a measure, must be esteemed dependants on him. This could not be regarded in any other light than as a new species of influence, which must be highly detrimental to the constitution. He came now to the measure itself, of which he must say that not one man liked it. It had no favourer, not even in the person by whom it was introduced. What good, then, was it calculated to do? The right hon. gent. said, the House could not visit those who had been unfortunate, in a vindictive way. God forbid! That the House had it not in its power. But did the right hon. gent. think it would be wise in the House to support at the expence of the rest of the country, those individuals who had embarked in improvident speculations? He was told, and he believed the fact, that there had been few failures of any of our old stable houses: that they were almost entirely speculators who had failed, and who had carried along with them the manufacturers who had entrusted them with their goods. The small manufacturers, however, who had suffered in this way, were to have no relief under this Bill. The Commissioners were not to giant sums under 4,000 l. unless on a deposit of goods to twice the amount of the loan. But how were these small manufacturers to do so? Their goods were already gone—they had been defrauded of them. They could probably give other security, which, if accepted of, they right be enabled to go on; but no such security could be taken. Here, therefore, was a fundamental defect in the Bill. His belief was, that the commercial credit of the country could not be extricated out of the difficulties in which it was involved, but by a settlement of our dispute with America, and by a peace in Europe. How could the present, difficulties be removed or alleviated by an issue of paper, at a period when the redundancy of paper in circulation was practically illustrated within these few days, by a depreciation of its value. When we could not for our paper get the same quantity of silver which we had been accustomed to receive for it, did not that afford us a practical illusration that our paper was depreciated. The only end which the present Bill could serve would be, to induce the manufacturers to make

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new goods, and thus to add to the calamity. On these grounds he must oppose the Bill, and take the sense of the House upon it.
Mr. Lambewas afraid, that both the reasons which were supposed to have led to the present difficulties in the commercial world, were to be traced to the same cause; and that the violent trading to South America, which was supposed to be the principal reason of the present stagnation, arose from the shutting up of the ancient markets in Europe, in consequence of the steps taken by this country, and by our enemy. If this was the case, the present Bill could produce no effectual relief, but only served to put off the evil day. What chance was there of having the ancient markets of Europe opened? There was surely none. We therefore, by the present measure, only held out to the emperor of France an assurance that his plans had been successful, and thus induced him to persevere in them. The least part of the disadvantage to the country likely to result from the present Bill, would be the loss of the money advanced by the public. We had a far greater misfortune than that to contemplate. By this measure the House prevented the manufacturers and others, who ware the objects of the present Bill, and who now suffered from the glut of the foreign market, and in consequence of being excluded from the markets of Europe, from turning their capitals to other more important sources of internal improvement, from which both the individuals themselves, and the country as a nation, must derive infinitely greater advantages than from any trade or commerce whatever.
Mr. Marryattagreed with the hon. gentleman, that it would be better if commissioners and members of parliament were not allowed to claim relief under the Bill; but he could not agree with the last hon. gentleman that all the markets were shut. There were still a great many open to our merchants. The grand benefit which the Bill had in view was to keep the operative labourers at work, and therefore was highly desirable and beneficial.
Mr. Hibbertwas of opinion that the epithets "rash and improvident" were too freely bestowed on several classes of British merchants, whose conduct had not been such as justly to subject them to such an imputation. He thought that there was no class of merchants to whom the proposed relief could extend to whom it ought not to extend, and it appeared to
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him to be evident, that through the merchants the manufacturers must be relieved. For the Bill he should decidedly vote; but at the same time he concurred in the opinion of the hon. gentleman below him as to the expediency on the part of our government, to heal by peace the wound which commerce and the country had received.
The House then divided:

For the third reading

41

Against it

4

Majority

37