Sitting of 21 March 1811

PRESS IN INDIA.
Lord Archibald Hamiltonsaid, that in rising to submit his motion for copies of all orders and regulations respecting the Press in India, he felt it necessary to state not only what his object was, but what his object was not. It was not his intention in that instance to find fault with any of the regulations to which his motion referred; nor was it his intention, to suggest to the House any measure so incompatible with the nature of our government in India, as a free press. He, therefore, desired it might not be imputed to him. in this night's debate, that his motion was intended to embrace any such object, He had, indeed, formed an opinion upon, that subject—and felt no difficulty in declaring, that if the paper he now moved for was produced, and if it should be found to contain such regulations upon the press, as he was led to believe it would exhibit, he might possibly think some future attention to this subject advisable. But his motion of this night, was not of any such nature. All he now asked for was information, that an opportunity might be afforded to himself, and the members of that House, of knowing what were the laws upon this subject, which prevailed for our fellow subjects in India, and upon what authority those laws rested—and what was the penalty of transgression.—The trials which had lately taken place at Madras, had certainly created a considerable

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ferment. That ferment had been imputed to the unwise and authoritative interference of the government with the courts of justice—And certainly the refusal of the government to allow those trials to be printed had, in fact, augmented that ferment, and seemed almost to warrant that imputation. If all the proceedings had been regular and fair and correct, what harm could a printed account of the trials do? If, indeed, the proceedings had not been regular nor correct, it was then natural enough for power to interpose, and forbid their publication. In either case, however, his motion ought to be granted, in the one case to justify the government, in the other to reform its practice. But upon the general reason of the case, he felt himself still more strongly justified in calling for this document. He was aware that it might be urged against him, that, though there might be no positive law, a long practice was sufficient to establish an usage, and that such usage must have the efficacy of law. But he would not admit that any usage, unsupported bylaw, could justify such regulations respecting the press as now existed in India, and as had never been sanctioned by that House. He wanted to know, not only what the law was, but upon what authority it had been established. The government of India seemed to think itself, on some occasions, entitled to legislate for India, as in the present instance; and on other occasions, actually to supersede and set at nought the declarations and resolutions of this House. They were all aware that it was contrary to law to make conquests to extend the territories of the India Company, and they equally well knew how that law had been obeyed. If that House should not interpose its authority, to restrain the violations of law in India, it was impossible that that important branch of the empire could be well governed or long retained. Another instance of the usurpation of the power and jurisdiction of that House, by the government of India, he must mention, because it was more immediately connected with the subject of his motion this night.—When the Province of Oude was seized (so unjustly and tyrannically as he thought) in the name of the Company, a proclamation had been issued, falsely stating that the seizure had received the approbation and sanction of the king and the parliament. Thus had the press been used to usurp the authority of that House, and to belie the legislature
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at home; and are we now to see it restrained from detailing the proceedings in our own courts of justice, and not be permitted to know either the rules or authority by which it is governed? He should, in he next place, beg have to inform the House as to what he understood to be the substance of the regulations respecting the press in India—if not the whole, at least a considerable part of these regulations. By these regulations, no newspaper could be published in India which did not previously receive the sanction of the secretary of the government. Whether this regulation was right or not, he did not mean then to contend: he only wanted to know by what authority the regulation had been established. The penalty for transgressing this regulation was immediate embarkation for Europe. The noble lord here quoted the authority of a learned judge (Sullivan) in India, to show that no power could exist in the government arbitrarily to restrain the liberty of the Press in India—that liberty of the press which was the right of every Englishman—which was the surest guard for his freedom, and the best check upon the courts in the administration of justice. It was to ascertain upon what grounds this breach of the law had taken place, that he wished to call for copies of the orders and regulations. He found it also laid down in the regulations, that certain rules were framed for the guidance of the secretary of the government in revising the newspapers. He was to prevent all observations respecting the public revenues and finances of the country—all observations respecting the embarkations on board ships of stores, or expeditions, and their destination, whether they belonged to the Company or to Europe—all statements of the probability of war or peace between the Company and the Native Powers—all observations tending to convey information to the enemy, and the republication of paragraphs from the European papers, which may tend to affect the influence or credit of the British power with the native states. If the press was to be prevented from publishing any thing under these several heads, he was at a loss to know upon what subject any observation could be published. Though he would repeat, that he did not now mean to say that any of these regulations were wrong, yet when the papers, if granted, should be produced, he was of opinion that others would be of the same sentiments, with himself upon the subject. As to the

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trials at Madras, he should only observe, that hitherto the administration of justice was considered pure; amidst the general havoc, the universal gloom, which our political measures had spread over India, he had always been accustomed to regard the proceedings of our courts of justice there, as exhibiting a splendid and honourable contrast; but in this instance, the courts seemed, by their not allowing the publication, to be ashamed of their proceedings. If they were not ashamed of them, they ought to allow the publication, if only to allay the ferment which was excited by these trials. The publication could do no harm, and might do much good. The noble lord then stated, that two grand jurors and three petty jurymen had been sent away from Madras for their conduct on these trials. He would ask, whether, under the present ambiguity of the law, any man could have a fair trial, or by what authority he could be tried at all, or for what offence? Let it be recollected, the judge he had before alluded to (Sullivan) had questioned the foundation on which this power of subjecting the press to inspection previous to publication, rested, even with regard to newspapers, and had stated, that till lately, it had never been carried further. But the case he had brought before the House, this night, was not a restriction upon a newspaper, but a silencing veto of publications on a court of law. It was not restraining opinions, not preventing discussion, not repressing theories, nothing of this kind; but it was denying to our fellow subjects in India, the simple privilege of reading in print, the simple account of their own transactions in their own courts of justice, as they had actually taken place. And if the paper he moved for should be denied, it would be a refusal by this House of the fittest evidence on which this practice of assuming despotic controul over the press in India, by the government there, could be checked and reformed, if wrong, or justified and confirmed, if right. The noble lord concluded by moving, "That there be laid before this House, a copy of all Orders. Regulations, Rules, and Directions, which have been promulgated since the year 1797, regarding any restraint of the Press, at the three presidencies of Bengal, Madras, and Bombay, or which have been acted upon by the governments there without being promulgated, or which have been sent to India by the Court of Directors, or by the Board of Controul,"
Mr. Dundaswould state, as shortly as possible, the reasons which made him feel it his duty to oppose the motion of the noble lord. The noble lord had founded his proposition on two distinct grounds; the one, certain proceedings which took place in the courts of Madras two years ago; the other, the general principles respecting the press, which, in his lordship's opinion, applied equally to this country and to India. With respect to the first of these grounds, he had to complain of the noble lord for introducing the subject on the present occasion; the House being aware that the whole of the proceedings on the trials at Madras were already ordered to be laid on the table, till which period any agitation of the question was premature with respect to the general reasoning, the noble lord, while he professed not to found his motion on any condemnation of the regulations by which the press was restrained in India, asserted that any restraint on the liberty of the press in India was improper. [Lord A. Hamilton observed, that he had not said so.] Such was certainly the impression made on his mind by the remarks of the noble lord. As to the liberty of the press, surely no man could be so wild as seriously to entertain an opinion that the principles which were applicable to that liberty in England were alike applicable to it in India. The noble lord asked for the rules which existed on the subject. Now really, with the exception of the regulations regarding newspapers, which the noble lord had read, he did not believe there existed any written regulations respecting the press in India. He would, however, ask, the noble lord, whether he thought it would be wise to sanction the unrestrained publication of all matters whatever in the newspapers of India? [Lord A. Hamilton:" No, but no censorship."]—Without some censorship there would be danger. Could any thing be considered more perilous than to spread opinions of all kinds whatever throughout the whole of Hindostan? A government that permitted such a practice would be most negligent and unjustifiable. Let it be recollected, that no European could be in India but either in the service of the company or by the licence of the company. Was it not perfectly just, therefore, to say to an individual there—to a printer, for instance, at Madras, "If you do not conform to the regulations of the government, you must withdraw from India." Suppose a clerk in

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any office in this country were to become the editor of a newspaper, he would be perfectly justified in doing so; but would not the person by whom he was employed be justified in saying," I do not choose that you should thus occupy yourself, and you must therefore quit my service." The cases were strictly analogous; for this was all that was declared by the government of India. To give the House some idea of the extent of the evil which might result from unrestrained freedom of the press in India, he would mention a circumstance that had occurred since his accession to office:—It had come to the knowledge of government that certain persons, actuated doubtlessly by the most laudable intentions, had caused to be printed, for the purpose of dissemination among the natives of India, a treatise, containing animadversions of the most severe nature on the religion and customs of the natives. Now as it was the substratum of the British government in India to uphold the laws and usages of the natives, the House would immediately perceive that it was the bounden duty of government to suppress a work calculated to excite irritation and hostility. Such a restraint on the press was justified by the circumstances of the case, and by the powers entrusted to the government. Differing therefore wholly from the noble lord on the grounds upon which the motion was founded, he must give to it his decided negative,
Lord Folkestonedeclared, that had any previous doubt existed in his mind as to the propriety of producing the paper moved for by his noble friend, the observations of the right hon. gent. would have completely removed it. The right hon. gent. asserted, that the East India company had a right to bind their servants by their own regulations. This might be true; but if those regulations were of so paramount a nature that every individual became bound by them, independent of every other consideration or principle, then was it, in his judgment, most necessary that the House should know what those regulations were; and when it was recollected that they related to India, he thought that circumstance was in itself sufficient to give great reason for jealousy and distrust on the part of the House. He denied that those stated by his noble friend were the sole regulations, as the right hon. gent. seemed erroneously to think they were. Neither did he think it fair of that
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right hon. gent. to call upon his noble friend to propose better regulations than those now existing. This was not fair; it was not parliamentary. His noble friend had done his duty in complaining of what he thought was wrong. He should vote for the production of the papers—first, because he thought that they ought to know under what rules and regulations the British subjects in India lived; and next, because it was necessary, in his opinion, to inquire whether such rules furnished adequate grounds for prohibiting the right of publication of the trials at Madras claimed by the parties concerned.
Sir John Anstrutherobserved, that certainly the noble mover had abstained from directly condemning the government of India, and only wished for the regulations which that government had promulgated. He might ask what right parliament had to demand the rules which the government of India chose to establish for the guidance of their own servants? The noble lord who had just spoken, however, went further than the noble mover; and urged, as a ground for consenting to the motion, the injustice and oppression of the Indian government. To accede to the motion, therefore, would be to accede to the proposition, that the government of India had been unjust and oppressive; and this without any case whatever of public hardship or individual suffering having been made out. There was not an European in India who was not aware of the engagements into which he entered before he entered into them; and that if he did not choosy to comply with those engagements, the term of his residence in India was at an end. As to the regulations which respected the publication of newspapers, he would ask any one who was at all acquainted with India, whether ah unrestrained publication could there with safety be permitted? Was this unrestrained publication to be allowed for the purpose of permitting one set of the servants of the Company to illuminate another set of those servants? Suppose a secretary of the admiralty in this country were to set up a newspaper, for the purpose of discussing the public conduct of a lord of the treasury, could any thing be more absurd? But perhaps this unrestrained publication of newspapers in India, was for the purpose of illuminating the natives. Was this exactly desirable? Would it be very expedient to inform them of the peculiar tenure by which the British government

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held their power? He recollected when he was in India, that soon after a certain massacre, a series of ingenious and well written essays, appeared in one of those publications, which were to enlighten the great capital of Calcutta (in which, let it be remembered, there were at least 100,000 natives, capable of reading English), the tendency of which was to prove, with how much ease and safety, by a judicious combination of the natives, the whole European population of Bengal might be exterminated. Was it not wise to prevent the publication of such articles as this? It would, perhaps, be said, that the publisher might be punished; but of what avail was that when the mischief was effected? With respect to the trials at Madras, the noble lord had asserted, that the government of India appeared to be ashamed of the proceedings on that subject. There were two parties involved in this consideration—the courts, and the government. He admitted, that when application was made to the courts for permission to publish the proceedings, the judge alluded to by the noble lord, did make the answer which the noble lord ascribed to him, the propriety or impropriety of which he would not then discuss. The court, however, declared, that they had nothing to do with it; that they could grant no permission. Then for the government. But first, he must observe, that although regulations existed in India, respecting the publication of newspapers, he did not believe that any regulation existed respecting the publication of books. The person who was about to publish the trials applied for permission to do so to the secretary of the government, probably with a view to give greater sanction to his publication. Permission was refused. What would have been done by the government had the publication taken place notwithstanding, he knew not. He did not think, however, that the government would in such a case have done wrong to punish the publishers; for it was admitted on all hands, that at that moment the greatest ferment prevailed in Madras; the judges (whether properly or improperly it was not the time to enquire) having thought fit to refer the result of the trials to England for the consideration of his Majesty. Whether or not, however, punishment would have followed the publication, nothing to him could be more evident, than that the government of India would have acted most unwisely, had they under such circum-
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stances granted a formal permission for a publication of that nature.
Mr. Howarthadmitted the necessity of regulations, and acknowledged that a press in India, wholly unrestrained, might be productive of great mischief. But the matter for complaint was, not that regulations were imposed on men before they went out, to which they previously and voluntarily acceded, but that after they had gone out, they found they had to struggle with innovations superinduced upon those regulations, to which they had not only not voluntarily assented, but of which they had not had any idea.
Sir Thomas Turtonwas not surprised at hearing the language which had been used by those who opposed this motion: such language was altogether worthy of the country in which the governors were every thing, and the governed nothing. The absurdity was to speak at all of freedom of discussion, or the liberty of the press, when India was the subject. The liberty of the press in India! "Risum teneatis, amici?" As if a plant of such celestial growth could flourish in the sterile soil of despotism! Under any such a system of government discussion was indeed to be avoided. Nothing could be more dangerous than freedom of discussion under a government founded upon blood and supported by injustice. As wisely might the liberty of the press be established at Tunis or Algiers, where the government was not inferior to that of ours in India. He had no hesitation in avowing it as his opinion, that there was as much liberty enjoyed under the government of the dey of Algiers, or the emperor of Morocco, as by the natives under the British government in India. Therefore must any discussion be dangerous that could open their eyes to their present state, or make them reflect that the British were but one million, while they were sixty millions. But if the regulations were, as they had been, approved of by gentlemen opposite, he wished to know why they were so reluctant to produce them? He thought, that as rules and regulations affecting such a portion of the British empire, they ought to be promulgated; if, however, they were so wise and salutary, and beneficial as they were said to be, what possible objection could there be to the motion of the noble lord, who only called for their production? The usual parliamentary objection, that voting for their production implied a cen-

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sure upon them, could not hold here; if they were what they should be, promulgation could do them nor the country no harm, and if they were not, they ought to be known. The right hon. and learned gent. had, in speaking of the Madras trials, stated, that permission was asked to publish them, this was a mistake, no such permission had been asked He concluded by stating, that the motion of the noble lord should have his cordial support.
Mr. Wallacedid not think that the noble lord had made out his argument in support of the present motion, even upon his own grounds. The noble lord had laid it down as the grounds of his motion, that the regulations were illegal and unjust. This had by no means been made out: still less had it been established that the refusal of permission to publish the trials at Madras had been an undue and inexpedient exercise of power. The hon. baronet had denied that permission had been asked: he begged leave to correct him in that statement, and to assure him, on the best authority, that permission had been asked. There were other reasons justifying the suppression of that publication: one trial took place on the 11th of January, another upon the 2d of March—the publication of the former trial, in the intermediate time, might have operated in an unfair way to the prejudice of either party, and therefore to the prejudice of substantial justice. But the right hon. and learned gent. had reminded them of the state of Madras at that period: it had been justly described as being then in a violent ferment—and under such circumstances would it have been wise to have permitted such a publication?
Mr. Hutchinsonobserved, that the last speaker had avowed, that the object was, to keep the people of India in darkness as to the nature of their government. The more important, therefore, it was, that this House should take care, that our government there, such as it was, should be well administered. He would certainly vote for the motion.
Mr. Grantcontended that despotism had not been established there by England, but that it had been found there, where it had existed for many ages. The introduction of the liberty of the press might lead to the most fatal consequences, and in the present slate of things, would unhinge the whole frame of Indian society. He did not think any case had been made out for the production of the paper.
Sir H. Montgomeryapproved of the present system, and thought any innovation that might be made would be very dangerous to the interests of this country. He, however, could have wished the trial in question had been allowed to be published, as it might have prevented the introduction of a report of it into this country, which he had been given to understand was spurious.
Mr. Lockhartobserved that the government of India had been acquired, like most other governments, partly by conquest, partly by compact, and partly by forfeiture. Under these circumstances, to allow of the unrestrained liberty of the press would be dangerous. Their situation, however, was not such as it had been said to be; for though they did not enjoy a tree government, they were governed by persons who were responsible to this country, and answerable for their conduct to that House. He thought the motion had been brought forward merely as a compliment to the abstract liberty of the press. He was a friend to that liberty, and though it should run into some excesses (and some licentious strides even in this country he thought it had taken), he was far from wishing to impose any new-restriction. The liberty of the press had done much good; it had also been in some instances, a source of the most tremendous evils. It had been spoken of as that which ought not to be discussed. From its magnitude and importance, he thought it ought often to be brought under their consideration. He remembered what had taken place in the National Assembly of the island of St. Domingo, where, in consequence of the attempt to extend the liberty of the press, the most dreadful scenes occurred. Those who were to be benefited by it, rose and massacred their friends indiscriminately with their foes, and at length succeeded in making themselves sovereigns of the island. Such might be the consequences of the introduction of the liberty of the press in India.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, the hon. gent. who had just spoken, had mentioned the licentiousness of the press, and observed that it had even in this country taken some strides. He (Mr. Whitbread) was also of opinion that it had taken some strides, but those strides appeared to him to be taken backwards. If the hon. gent. looked back to what had been published many years ago, and compared those publications with what issued from the press at the

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present day, he thought he also would be of opinion, that the motion of the liberty of the press was retrograde and not progressive. His noble friend was aware, that to place the press in India on the same footing as in England, might be dangerous. The government of India had been acquired, as the hon. gent. had said, by conquest, by compact, and by forfeiture, but he had omitted one short monosyllable, namely, that which had tended more to give us that acquisition than any thing else. He had not mentioned the word "fraud." If those ills might arise from extending the liberty of the press to India, which the hon. gent. had ascribed to that measure in St. Domingo, still he thought no evil could be expected to result from an attempt to soften the misery of the people; but, on the contrary, that it would tend to prop that power which must otherwise crumble into dust. The paper moved for ought to be produced. If the regulations made by the marquis Wellesley were good, they ought to be brought forward to justify him; and if they were unwise and impolitic, they ought to be produced, that they might be canvassed and corrected. The hon. gent. had said, the people of India were not in the situation in which it had been said they were, as they were governed by persons who were responsible for their conduct to that House. After this, however, when they were called to account in that House, that hon. gent. opposed the production of the paper requisite for their information. Not only was it considered right to withhold from the natives of India moral and political information, but it was even thought proper to deny them a knowledge of Christianity. To support a political despotism, they would not let them have the light of that Gospel through which they hoped for salvation themselves.—(No, from the Treasury Bench!)—One hon. gent. had expressed himself nearly to that effect, and the right hon. Secretary himself had seemed about to say so, when the enormity of the proposition appeared to startle him. He was sorry this discussion had taken place, to shew the world the wretched situation of those who were called our fellow-subjects, but who were not so in fact, "but those (said Mr. W.) whom we and our fellow-subjects are despots over." He thought this discussion would have been well avoided by the production of the paper. It would have been perfectly harmless, and it must have
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done good, as it would have justified the marquis Wellesley, or benefitted the country, by shewing what was wrong.
Mr. R. Dundasexplained. He was not for withholding front the natives of India the light of Christianity; he only wished to keep that from them which would lead to tumultuous proceedings.
Mr. Whitbreadhad understood him to say that to attempt to do away the laws and the superstitions of Hindostan would be improper.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought the arguments of the hon. gent. were by no means sufficient to justify the production of the paper. Gentlemen should remember that the liberty of the press was not withheld merely from the principles of the government, but from the dispositions of the natives themselves. They were in that state that it might do them much harm, though if they were less ignorant it might be expected to be productive of the greatest good. He was glad his right hon. friend had so well explained away what had been said of withholding from the natives the light of Christianity, No such disposition existed, but it was wisely thought that government should abstain from openly exerting itself to further the cause of Christianity, lest they should be represented to the people as attempting to impose upon them a new religion. On all occasions when papers were moved for in that House, he thought a better reason should be given, than that they were desired out of curiosity; and the paper required by the noble lord ought not, in his opinion, to be given, as if they were to grant it without any substantial reason for its production having been given, they would seem to admit that there appeared grounds for censuring the government of India.
Sir J. Newportsupported the motion, and thought no one reason had been given why the paper should not be granted.
Lord A. Hamiltonsaid, that after the very able manner in which his motion had been supported, it would be unnecessary for him to trespass further on the time of the House, than merely to make one or two observations on some arguments from the other side of the House. He had to make one general complaint of almost all the gentlemen who had opposed him, that they had thought proper not only to impute to him what he had not said, but what he had actually disclaimed. He had disclaimed distinctly, and repeatedly, all

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intention of claiming for India a perfectly free press. He did not even introduce that question at all; it was unnecessary for his object, and he had cautiously avoided it. Yet all the hon. gentlemen who opposed his motion, except the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had spoken as if such had been his principal motive. He had stated, at first, not only what his object was, but what it was not. He had said, it was not, to demand for India a press perfectly free, but merely to enquire by what authority it had one perfectly fettered. One hon. gent. (Mr. Lockhart) had called his motion "an abstract compliment to the Liberty of the Press." Without stopping to notice the obvious insinuation of that phrase, he would merely say, that if the hon. gent. should ever become liable to the penalty imposed upon the transgression of this formidable law, which was the object of his motion, the hon. gent. would then probably change his tone, and not think the matter altogether of an abstract nature. Immediate embarkation for Europe, without trial, or a hearing, or delay, or preparation, would surely be no very abstract injury or hardship. If, as an hon. gentleman had said, "India must, at all events, be governed as it now is," there was an end of his motion, and of every other of a similar nature. He remembered, however, to have heard in that House, very different arguments held by those who sat on the Treasury bench; some of whom spoke in favour of the present, some of the past, and others of the future. He recollected a certain dispatch which had a few years back been drawn up, but not sent to India, which reprobated that doctrine to which he had just alluded, and said positively, that India should not be governed as it then was. For his own part, he was of opinion, that if India must be governed as it now is, though the India Company might not think so, he believed the public had much better not have it at all. He had only one word more—this month was the time when the government must give notice, according to the act of parliament, that the Company must quit their exclusive privilege. He would beg to know of the right hon. gentleman, whether it was intended to give such notice?
Mr. Dundassaid, he had on a former night been asked that question, and he had then answered that it was.
Mr. Johnstonewould vote against the motion. He was not aware that the. power entrusted to the government of India had
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been misused, and was fully convinced that the most mischievous effect would result from allowing a free press to exist in India.
The House divided, when the numbers were—Ayes, 18.—Noes, 53.—Majority, 35.
Mr. Dundasthen moved for the appointment of a Select Committee on India Affairs, which he proposed should consist of the same members as before, with only two exceptions, the one, that of an hon. gentleman who could not attend, and the other that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was likewise prevented from attendance.—The two new members he mentioned were Mr. Porcher and Mr. De Ponthieu.
Mr. Creeveycomplained that the Committee was so formed as to prevent any report except such as would be agreeable to the government and the East India company. The Committee was only an adjournment of the Directors and Board of Controul up stairs. They never gave information except when they wanted money. Their maxim was, give us all the money we want, or we shall force it from you, and call you all the names we can invent into the bargain. After some further observations on this political farce, he moved, as an amendment, That the Committee should inquire into the conduct of the Directors and of the Board of Controul in the management of Indian Affairs.
Mr. Dundasread over several of the names—Mr. Wilberforce, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Sturges Bourne, Mr. Fitzhugh, Lord Morpeth, Mr. Long, Mr. Creevey, &c. &c. and asked what particular bias they could have against the truth? Lord Folkestone, and Mr. Whitbread supported the amendment. Mr. Wallace and Mr. Grant Opposed it. The House divided,

For the original motion

56

Against it

19

Majority

—37

LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE BILL
Earl Stanhopeaddressed their lordships on the great fitness and propriety of enacting, by a separate legislative provision, the proposition he brought forward on a former evening, and proposed as a clause or rider to the Mutiny Bill. The title of the Bill he now proposed to introduce was, "An Act for the better securing Liberty of Conscience."
The Earl of Liverpooldid not object to the first reading of the Bill, but reserved to himself the opportunity of expressing his sentiments with respect to such a measure on a subsequent stage. He continued, however, to think that such a legislative provision was wholly unnecessary.
The Bill being read a first time, the noble mover named an early day for its second reading, which the noble lord on the woolsack thinking too soon,
Earl Stanhopeurged, as a reason to the contrary, the extreme brevity of the Bill, which contained but two clauses, and was very unlike those cloak-bags of acts, which the noble and learned lord was used to.—He notified his intention to move the second reading of the Bill on Tuesday.

DEBTOR IN THE MARSHALSEA PRISON.
Lord Hollandrose to move, pursuant to notice, for the printing of the evidence and the verdict given at the inquisition of the coroner of Surry, on the view of the body of the unfortunate man who died in the Marshalsea prison. The noble lord prefaced his motion with a variety of observations, tending to shew the propriety of the proceeding he recommended, and also of a further investigation into the business. There appeared to him, on his view of the evidence, a degree of inconsistency between what had been so delivered, and the verdict pronounced by the jury. A degree of mystery seemed to hang upon it, and even in justice to the jury, the proceedings, he thought, should be printed, and the whole case further investigated. Were his interference on the present occasion attended with no other effect than to call the attention of the legislature generally to the state of the pri-

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sons, he was satisfied that his endeavours would not be wholly useless. He did not mean to attribute blame to any individual with respect to the actual state of the prison in question, or to impugn the humanity of the keeper of the prison, but the state of the prison, as to the building, and want of accommodation, was such as to render it improper for the purpose for which it was designed.
The Earl of Aylesfordmade a few observations in consequence of what fell from the noble lord. He expressed his desire for every proper investigation to be made into the affair alluded to, and his individual willingness to exert himself to that end; but he suggested that the appointment of a Committee to inquire would be a much more efficacious mode. His lord-ship also observed, that the buildings and repairs alluded to by the noble lord, for the better accommodation of the prisoners, were in considerable forwardness.
After a short explanation from lord Holland, and a few words from lord Ellenborough, the motion for the printing of the verdict and evidence, was agreed to, and a Committee of Inquiry appointed.

DOLLARS OR BANK TOKENS.
Lord Grenvillesaid he should beg leave, before their lordships proceeded to the order of the day, to call their attention to a circumstance which appeared to him of the utmost importance. What he was about to advert to, every man was acquainted with, namely, the Directors of the Bank of England having taken upon themselves to exercise the highest prerogative of the sovereign, not less than to raise the denomination of the current coin of the realm, and by the advice of a Committee of the King's privy council. He confessed that all the ideas he had formed of the monarchy under which we lived, and even all his ideas of the parliamentary constitution of the country, were erroneous, if the measure to which he alluded were justifiable. It was further to be considered, that these steps were taken without even referring to or consulting parliament; and this too at a moment when the House of Commons was actually engaged in the consideration of the subject. He proposed to move for a copy of the Resolution of the Directors, in order to bring the facts of the case regularly under the purview of the House, and to enable their lordships to form their opinions, not only upon the particular measure, but upon the great subject con-
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nected with it. It must be plain that the monied circulation of the country was unconstitutionally interfered with, when such steps were taken to increase its denomination. He was aware of the wretched quibble attempted to be interposed; he meant that the Dollars in universal circulation as coin, would, by noble lords opposite, be regarded, on this occasion, not as the current coin of the realm, but merely as Bank tokens; but this was a subterfuge which he trusted would not be attended to in the consideration of this most important business. His lordship concluded by moving for the production of a copy of the Resolution of the Governor and Directors of the Bank of England, for raising the denomination of Bank Tokens, or Dollars, now in circulation, &c.—On the question being put,
Earl Bathurstexpressed his satisfaction at the subject being brought forward, as no persons could be more anxious for its investigation than the members of his Majesty's government, who readily took ail the responsibility on themselves. With respect to one pointed remark of his noble friend, he must observe, that any man must plainly see the difference between the regular current coin of the realm, issued by his Majesty, and the Tokens of the Bank, which were only to be regarded in the same light as Bank-notes. He must take that opportunity to protest against any conclusion drawn from this measure, as to the depreciation of Bank paper; all that could be inferred from the transaction, was a rise in the price of silver. This might be attributed to various causes, especially, perhaps, to an increased demand for that precious metal, but it could, by no means, be attributed to any depreciation of the notes issued by the Bank.
The Earl of Lauderdaleentertained a different opinion upon the subject, and referred to some instances in history, where, in cases nearly similar, such transactions were held to involve a depreciation of the paper currency. He coincided with his noble friend, with respect to the identity of the dollars so circulated with the current coin of the realm. Such a miserable attempt at distinction, was, he observed, amply refuted by Locke, and other intelligent writers upon the subject.
Lord Grenville, in reply, observed, that the time would come when the Bank Directors would have to answer for their conduct with respect to other matters, as well as that in question; but in the pre-

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sent instance, the King's government, by their conduct in the transaction, were to be considered as parties, as they lent their advice and authority to the Bank Directors; and the coin alluded to, it appeared, was also circulated under the authority of his Majesty's government.
Earl Buthurst, in explanation, denied the inference, that his Majesty's government had declared them a legal tender.
Lord Ellenboroughtook occasion to observe, that such a step was not regularly in the power of ministers. By the law and the constitution, that power was vested elsewhere.
The Earl of Rossmade some observations with respect to the state of the paper currency, particularly in Ireland, where it was in far more favourable a state than some noble lords seemed to think. The issues of the Bank of Ireland had narrowed considerably since the investigation took place; the state of the exchange with Ireland was improved; and the difference between a guinea and Bank paper was, in that country lately, only four-pence.
The Earl of Lauderdaleadverted to the causes of the improved state of the Bank of Ireland currency, as alluded to by the noble earl; it was principally to be attributed to the great reduction of the issue of Bank of Ireland notes, which took place soon after the inquiry.
Earl Stanhopeentertained similar sentiments with noble lords on his side of the House, respecting the recent conduct of the bank directors. He reprobated it as a transaction of which the foulest advantages might be made, in case of the directors having given private notice to their friends of their intention to raise the price of dollars upon such a day. There had been cases as bad. It was known that some individuals had by some means extricated certain secrets from Mr. Pitt, when at the head of affairs, and by means of such secrets, they had acquired large properties. The motion was then agreed to, as was also a motion for an Address to the Prince Regent, praying, That copies of the correspondence between his Majesty's government and the Bank of England, on the occasion in question, be laid before the House.

DEFENCE OF PORTUGAL.
The order of the day for the consideration of the Prince Regent's Message on this subject being moved, the Message was read by the clerk, after which.
The Marquss Wellesleyrose, for the purpose of moving an Address to his Royal Highness on the occasion. It was one, he observed, on which he naturally expected that under the circumstances of the case, the general concurrence of their lordships, would be signified. The facts and circumstances to which the message referred, were of indisputable notoriety, and the policy and wisdom of the measure to be proposed rested upon principles of public faith, and incontrovertible grounds of public wisdom. On these grounds, in the present stage of the discussion, it would be the lessnecessary to enter into the reasons upon which his Royal Highness founded his expectations of receiving the general concurrence and support of their lordships. They all knew and should feel, that the present moment was the very crisis of the fortunes of our magnanimous ally; she was in the very zenith of her exertions, co-operating with us against the common enemy; and surely it was impossible to think that an idea or a desire could be entertained of checking or suspending the successful progress of our common exertions. The exertions made by Portugal, independent of the aid she received from this country, were of themselves considerable; but how much more efficacious these may be rendered with due assistance from this country, may be inferred from what was now well known to their lordships to have resulted from the aid already afforded by us to Portugal. She had been stimulated thereby to a degree of exertion before unknown in the annals of the country, and these efforts, when assisted by and combined with those made by Britain, had produced a tide of success unparalleled in the history of any country in Europe. Her present formidable military force has risen from a lower scale of establishment and discipline than could be paralleled in any country of Europe; but it had proceeded progressively under the inspirating auspices of excellentand skilful British officers to its present state of perfection. To prove the value and efficiency of the Portuguese troops, he need only add, that during the campaign which had just passed, they had been sharers in all the toils endured, and partners in all the glories achieved, by the British soldiery. But this was not all; the system to which his Royal Highness in his gracious message referred, had proved a pregnant and perennial source of other important advantages. It tended

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to exalt the Portuguese militia to a degree of vigour and activity worthy of a powerful regular army; and further, it was the means of bringing forward an armed peasantry, who may well be styled the great defensive mass of the country. The more the line of policy which had been pursued was considered, the more its advantages would appear. An organized militia was established, which could act in co-operation with a regular and powerful army stationed in a central situation, and opposed to the main body of the enemy's force. The advantages derivable from such a military system of defence or annoyance were reciprocal. Such different descriptions of force operated in favour of each other, and thus a two-fold advantage was obtained over the enemy. A question, indeed, might be started, or rather a point to be considered, was, what had been the result? To this he had to answer, that it was undeniable that the country had been hitherto successfully maintained against the military power of the enemy. Under all these circumstances, a doubt could never have been entertained as to the general policy of defending Portugal. She had made every effort on her part; and on every principle of national honour and sound policy, she should have the aid of our utmost efforts. To look further at this part of the question, he observed he had never heard any person deny that the defence of Portugal was at the same time also a main instrument for the defence of the whole Peninsula; neither could it be denied that from such a quarter we could act with the greatest advantage in case of any great or favourable event occurring ill Spain. The only remaining question to be considered, then, was, whether the proposed aid towards the defence of Portugal should be continued, or whether—he would not use a stronger term—we should with an untimely hand, after rousing the slumbering energies of this people, damp the spirit which had been thus created, instead of feeding it, and renewing its vigour?—whether we should not stimulate the exertions, encourage the hopes and furnish aid to the patriotic efforts of a country nobly struggling for her independence?—whether we should not lend her additional assistance to strengthen and invigorate those powers which already exist, and are in a train of success, to improve those great and incalculable advantages, which such a
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train of circumstances and such a state of things naturally and obviously present? There undoubtedly would be many occasions for regularly and fully discussing the whole of this important subject, and for such discussions no man could be more anxious than himself. But in addition to the various other reasons for the adoption of the measure in question, he must advert to that unanswerable consideration, that it had stood the test of experience, and proved its merits. We were bound therefore, equally in interest and in honour, to continue our assistance. There remained now only one other point upon which he would trouble their lordships. It was to be recollected that his Royal Highness had, through his commissioners, expressed his desire to hand over to his Royal Father on his happy restoration, which he trusted in God might speedily take place, every part of the system of government, every branch of national policy, and every description of public affairs, unimpaired, and in the same state in which he had received them, unaltered and undiminished. On every ground, therefore, whether referring to the glory, the honour, or the interest of the country, their lordships, he trusted, would feel it incumbent on them to concur with him in the address he should have the honour to propose. The Noble Marquis then moved an Address to the Prince Regent, corresponding with his Royal Highness's message, and assuring him of the concurrence of the House in enabling his Royal Highness to continue the assistance afforded last year to Portugal, and for affording such further aid as circumstances may require.
Lord Grenvillesaid, that the situation in which their lordships at present stood was peculiar and unexampled, a situation which would by no means justify any relaxation in the discharge of their duty to the country, but which imposed on them embarrassments and doubts as to the manner in which that duty ought to be discharged. It was notorious that, on account of the calamity which had befallen them, the constitutional relation between the crown and its ministers and Parliament was completely suspended. He had no idea, however, that the functions of Parliament were also suspended. He had no idea that they were not to adopt what measures might appear best for the interest of the country—that they were not to adopt what would place the country in

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the most favourable situation when his Majesty should have happily to resume the government—but that they were to put the country into the same situation in which it was at the commencement of his Majesty's malady—that they were to endeavour to arrest the progress of time—that they were to pay no regard to the happiness and prosperity of the millions with whose rights they were entrusted, but merely to consider what was the precise situation of the country, and what was the exact state of its relations on the 25th of October, and to preserve it critically in that situation. On that 25th of October, after all the glories and all the triumphs which this country had obtained, its situation was in no small degree disastrous and calamitous; but, however disastrous and calamitous that situation might then have been, it would be happy for his Majesty, and happy for his subjects, that the country should be delivered over to him as it then was. But ministers have not arrested the wheel of the revolution that was going on; they had not arrested the progress of the calamity which has desolated Europe. By their notion of preserving the country in the same state, both as to internal policy and external relations, as at the commencement of his Majesty's malady, ministers meant nothing more than the accession of every measure which could be advantageous to the public interest, and this from some supposed desire of the Prince Regent, not arising from a concern for the advantage of the people, but with that cold and narrow view of merely placing the country in the exact situation in which he received it. He was convinced that the Prince Regent never held such sentiments. But whatever were his sentiments, it was their part to consider what was their duty—not what was the situation of the country at any one period—but how they might, in the existing crisis, with their counsels, best produce the happiness, the prosperity, and the glory of its people. He must, therefore, he said, take the liberty to dismiss from the present discussion what may have been the situation in former periods; because, in his opinion, it was the view of its actual situation only which their lordships were called on to entertain.
In the little that had been said upon the real question before them, there was one thing he should particularly remark on, as possibly in that House the only opportu-
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nity they would have of considering it, the close of the Session being near. The whole question was agitated as if the assistance to be continued were to be only of the same amount as that voted last year.—If he could banish from his mind all that had taken place during a former discussion, he should imagine that they were merely called on at present for a renewal of their vote; and as they then decided to give one million to the Portuguese, that all that was now proposed was, to keep up the same force. Would it be conceivable by any man who heard the speech of the noble marquis, that they were now called on for double that sum? It was spoken of as a thing of course. It was said they were asked to do nothing more than not to withdraw their assistance. The question, however, for their consideration was very different. It was not whether they were to continue their assistance, but whether, in the situation of this country, it was safe or politic to grant two millions for the support of an additional body of Portuguese troops?—Of this addition they were told nothing. Last year they were told distinctly what was to be the application of the sum voted—there was something like the semblance of an estimate—they were told that it would be expended on a certain army of Portuguese troops—but now they were not even told that an additional million was wanted, still less were they told how that million was to be disposed of, whether the pay was to be increased, or whether the forces were to be increased, or what was the controul under which the disbursement of that expenditure was to be placed?—Of all these circumstances they were told nothing—they were left in utter darkness, and the conclusion was conceived to be irresistible, that because one million was granted last year, it became necessary this year to grant two millions. This system, so long as it was persisted in, was hastening the country with accumulating rapidity, to that ruin which seemed almost inevitable.
It was not his object to give opposition to this or to that particular grant; he did not mean to oppose the application of this or of any other particular sum, but he gave his decided opposition to the whole system. The situation of the continent, he contended, was such, that without great assistance from the natives it was impossible, with any military efforts of our's on the continent, to resist that power which has all Europe at command. When he

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stated this, it was necessary to guard against misrepresentation. It was undoubtedly roost desirable to this country to witness and to aid in the emancipation of Europe. It was most desirable to keep this consideration constantly in view, that the moment may arrive when this country shall again successfully resist, and may finally overthrow, the common enemy of Europe. But the struggle could never be carried on by this country on the continent single-handed. In conformity to the practice of our ancestors, this country, whose chief strength lies in her navy, cannot successfully contend out of her own element, without powerful military cooperation on the continent of Europe. When that subject was first discussed, he had told their lordships, that many modes of acting were open, without compromising or committing their army in vain; and that the line of conduct pursued required greater efforts than they were able to continue. Undoubtedly, if the question was, whether it was desirable that Spain and Portugal should be relieved from the yoke, millions of treasure, and the lives of thousands, could not be better employed than in so noble a cause. Every emotion of the heart would prompt us to join in so glorious a cause; every freeman would rejoice that so iniquitous a plan of subjugation should be frustrated. Would to God that such a prospect existed! no individual would more seriously rejoice at it than he should. He would not only consent that assistance should be given, but he should wish that every sacrifice should be made for such an object. With regard to Portugal, they had, in addition to that common feeling, the long-continuance of treaties and the strong sense of united interests to influence them. But in the consideration of the political interests of a great country, it was not merely what was desirable, that ought to be adopted: their lordships were bound to consider and determine, in the first instance, whether any probability existed, that any efforts, which it was possible to make, could be successful; or whether, by mistrusting those efforts, which under a more seasonable application of them might succeed, they would not only make them frustrate the immediate object in view, but also contribute to produce the very reverse of that which they were intended to accomplish. It was not because he entertained an opinion that the country should abstain from generous, if only useful and possible, ef-
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forts; it was not because he entertained the doctrine that they were not interested in the fate of Europe; it was, because he saw no hope of salvation to the country so long as Europe remained under subjection to France, that he wished her at present carefully to husband her resources. It was not from selfish motives that he wished their lordships to act; it was not merely from considerations of their own advantage; but from the most generous of all motives, that they might at last be able to act with effect, and in the great cause of all nations to employ their whole energies with success. They had been told that night, that it was proper still to continue their efforts; and they were told this as if up to that moment these efforts had been successful. "Look back" (said his lords ship) "to Spain—look to the sacrifices, to the losses which have been there sustained, in wild and impracticable projects, and see the situation in which Spain is at this moment—look to the immediate object of this motion, Portugal. What had been the fruits of the operations there? What is now the state of Spain? What the situation of Portugal? What return has been made to this country, what benefit has she reaped from the immense exertions, the enormous sums that have already been expended in aid of that cause? All that we have been told in answer to this question is, that the enemy has not yet been able to achieve the conquest and subjugation of Portugal; that the British army is still there.—Yes, the British army is still there; but does it possess more of the country than the ground which it actually occupies? This is all that is held out to your lordships respecting the present state of affairs in that country. As to the future, not one word has been uttered to encourage our hopes, to cheer our prospects, to afford the slightest consolation for all the efforts and sacrifices which have already been fruitlessly made in pursuit of the same unattainable objects. We are not even told that all this enormous expence will tend to defend and ultimately secure Portugal. The only reason and encouragement with which we are favoured in justification of it is, that it is hoped we may long continue to maintain that narrow spot of ground which our army now occupies. Thus, in hazarding our best means, we do not essentially contribute to help or save Portugal, while we vainly drain our own resources, and risk our own safety—those resources which, if prudently managed,

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and providently laid up for a more propitious moment, would not only secure, but might also be effectually employed in the support and defence of other countries. Not that in making these observations I would be understood by your lordships as not taking the most lively interest in the cause of the peninsula, and as not being as willing as any man to make every effort and sacrifice in support of that cause, if in making such efforts and sacrifices there were any fair prospect of their not being made in vain. Upon this point I have been grossly and shamefully misrepresented. Never have I said, never was it in my intention to say, that the British empire was not directly and deeply interested in the fate of the peninsula—on the contrary, it was because I had the cause of Spain and Portugal sincerely and Warmly at heart, that I felt anxious, that your lordships should pause in this wild and mad career of thoughtless prodigality—that we should look our own situation in the face, and learn from the contemplation of it the necessity of economising our national resources, not with sordid or selfish views, but that we may be able at a period more favourable than the present, to lend to the cause of the nations of the peninsula, or to that of any other country similarly situated, that support and those exertions which, when made under all the circumstances of our present situation, must be found not only wholly unavailing to our allies, but highly injurious to ourselves."
He should be the last person, he observed, whether by speech or insinuation to detract from the merits of brave men armed and fighting in their country's cause. God forbid that he should ever harbour such sentiments. He was willing to admit that irregular and regular troops, acting in concert, were the best means of defending a country, and that without the application of both these species of force, they could not avail themselves of all the resources of war. But the question went higher than this. It was necessary before this, in any circumstances, and much more in our present circumstances, to inquire whether there was any rational prospect that these two millions, added to the enormous profusion which had already taken place, would produce any adequate advantage to compensate such a burden. They were bound to ask this question tinder any circumstances, and even under the most prosperous circumstances; but surely they were much more bound to ask
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this question now, when they were aware of the condition in which the finances of this country were actually placed. He had no wish to aggravate the final issue of the present difficulties; but when he considered what these difficulties were, he could not but think the present measure was exceedingly impolitic and ill-timed. It was not usual for this country, he knew not indeed if there was a single exception, even in the most prosperous times, to subsidize foreign troops before first examining the estimates of our own expenditure, and the situation of our own country. This was a good and salutary course. It enabled the members of both Houses to know that they had discharged their duty, and that they had not lavished the money of the public before they were apprised of what were the demands on it, and what the sacrifices required. How then should they take upon them to grant these two millions, before they had ascertained what sacrifices were demanded, what resources they had to supply these demands, what were the exigencies of the navy, and what protection could be afforded to the commerce of the country, if any commerce remained? They were told in the speech of the King's ministers, not that the revenues of this country had fallen off, but that there existed some financial difficulties in Ireland. When in former times extraordinary demands were made on this country, it was known whence these demands could be supplied, by the prosperous and growing commerce of the country, This enabled them to stand against a host of enemies; and that commerce has yet enabled them to maintain a proud front of defiance to the enemy. But look to the present agriculture and commerce of the country. With respect to its agriculture, in what situation were they when called upon to relinquish the main system of that agriculture? and, with respect to commerce, did they not know, that there was adding to the mass of paper at this moment in existence, the sum of 6,000,000 l. as if there was not paper enough already in the country, in order to protect their commerce and manufactures from destruction? As to the fruits that would result from this measure, he should express himself more fully in a future discussion, and he even here merely considered it as one feature of the waste of those resources to which they were to look in their financial difficulties. A measure something similar took place at a

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former period, the propriety of which he very much doubted at the time; but then the evil merely arose from want of confidence in those resources which existed, which had only to be called out; whereas at this time the evil lay in the stagnation of commerce itself. But he would not dwell on the discussion of this topic, he wished merely to point to the singular period they had fallen on, to vote such enormous sums. They were told that they were not only bound in policy, but that their good faith was pledged to continue their assistance. As to good faith or policy, he could not see that either called for this addition, though aware that the union of interests long subsisting between the two countries might on ordinary occasions have its force; but they had to recollect, that there was another country with which they were yet more closely and vitally connected by every tie, namely, Ireland. He did not speak of Ireland with regard to the general policy adopted there, nor to show the conduct that reason and common sense would have there adopted, but merely with regard to its financial situation; and he thought that before they were called on to pay Portugal for the maintenance of her own soldiers, they ought to consider what means they could adopt to fill up the deficiency in the revenue of Ireland. He called upon them to weigh the ways and means that remained for this, as he should be glad to know what these ways and means were. If the revenue of that country was deficient between one and one and a half millions below the ordinary expences, it might be prudent to advert to it before supplying the deficiency of Portugal. On the whole, therefore, he should give his decided negative to the motion, because he disapproved of the whole system; because three campaigns had more and more shewn its impolicy; because every circumstance was at present adverse to the prolongation of the contest; because he saw that system hastening the country fast into a gulph of inevitable ruin; and because, although at no time justifiable, it was brought forward at a time perfectly irregular and unparliamentaiy, before parliament had any information as to the actual state of resources of the nation, or their adequacy to so large an additional expenditure.
The Earl of Liverpoolwas surprised the noble lord should complain that no intimation had been given of the amount of the
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aid now proposed to be afforded Portugal. Was not the amount of that grant most explicitly staled in the address which had just been moved? Did it not appear from the votes of the other House of Parliament, now on their lordship's table? Had he not himself declared it explicitly on a former night, when the question respecting the amount of the intended subsidy was put to him by a noble lord? So much for the deficiency of information in that respect, of which the noble lord so loudly complained. He would now say, that there existed at present important grounds in addition to those which induced their lordships last session to agree to the grant of money to Portugal; and these additional grounds fully justified, in his opinion, the addition that was now proposed to that subsidy. He had only to recal to the recollection of their lordships the circumstances which passed when the first subsidy was proposed. With respect to the propriety of the assistance, the noble lord last session opposed it on the ground that the opportunity for acting was past, and that no man could hope for the creation of a Portuguese force of the description proposed.
Lord Grernvillerose to explain.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, the noble lord would have an opportunity when he had concluded.
Lord Grenvillesaid, that had he misrepresented his sentiments that night, he should have waited to the end of his speech; but as he was misrepresenting his sentiments on a former occasion, it was proper to expose the misrepresentation immediately.
The Earl of Liverpoolcontinued to ob serve, that such had been at the time, not only the view of the noble lord, but it wag widely entertained by many who were most anxious to give every assistance to Portugal, and who differed totally from the noble lord in sentiment. They had in this instance proposed the measure submitted by the motion of his noble friend, upon no speculative ground, but founded on an experience of exertions on the part of the Portuguese, which had exceeded the expectations even of the most sanguine; and far surpassed any calculations in which he himself' had ventured to indulge. As to the general policy of subsidies granted to foreign powers, he had frequently before discussed that subject with the noble baron He knew that it was the opinion of many, that they generally tended rather to

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cramp the energies than to call forth the resources of those states. He was aware that it was a common argument to say-that we did not get the value of our money. But the present was an occasion which could not be tried by any such principle; it was made evident that, in return for the expenditure of the sum voted last year, we had succeeded in gaining greater advantages than were anticipated by any person in the country. The Portuguese bad not only a large efficient regular force, but a numerous militia, making, exclusive of the Ordinanza, an army of between 80 and 90,000 men; an army which had already on numerous occasions contributed essentially to the safety of their country. There were persons now in London, by communication with whom it was easy to ascertain the important fact, that at the battle of Busaco the Portuguese troops acted in a manner deserving of the highest encomiums. From these circumstances, and from a reference to what had actually been done, their lordships had the satisfaction of seeing that what to some had appeared impossible, to others extremely doubtful, had now been fully realised. The noble baron had asked, how was the sun, which parliament was now called on to gram, to be applied? He wished to answer distinctly, to military purposes only; and he felt the highest satisfaction in informing the House, that four fifths of the whole revenue of Portugal itself, had been appropriated to the same purposes. There was, nevertheless, a deficiency still under the original estimate, arising in a great measure from the increased prices of the necessary supplies. The ground, however, on which he particularly recommended the vote, was the degree and amount of the exertions that had been made in Portugal towards raising an efficient force.
There were some other topics of the noble lord's speech, on which he felt desirous of making a few observations. Although unquestionably he felt all the warmth and enthusiasm which the situation of the nations on the Peninsula kindled in every British mind, yet he must declare that the government of this country had not conducted their measures by any views or principles of a romantic character. On the contrary, they had acted on a firm persuasion, that in aiding Spain and Portugal they were effectually supporting the cause of Great Britain. He appealed to the policy of our ancestors,
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which had always regarded Holland and the Peninsula as those parts of Europe with which it was essential to our best interests to maintain a close connection. In pursuit of this object, thus deemed of such importance, the best blood of our country was lavished a century ago. That House had at one period come to a solemn resolution, that this country never could make peace with safety, so long as the crowns of France and Spain were united in one family. How different, and how much more menacing were the circumstances of the present time, and how much more formidable were the projects of the present emperor of France! It certainly was desirable that all parts of the continent should be delivered from the domination now exercised over them; but there might be a period when it would be useless and imprudent to lend them any assistance, when it was at the same time an object of the wisest policy to persevere in every effort for the preservation of the independence of the nations on the Peninsula.
He now came to the question of practicability. He admitted its importance, but considered experience as its best test. If the House looked back to the commencement of the contest in 1793, he believed it would be impossible to name a conjuncture that presented a fairer prospect. The campaign of 1805 was over in three months; in as short a period the Russian, war was terminated; and in a still shorter the Prussian monarchy was overthrown. If they looked to the duration of the war in Spain and Portugal, they found themselves in the third year of an unremitted struggle. In 1809, the House was told that it was perfectly vain to contend against the power of France; in 1810, this prediction was repealed; and now, in 1811, they still heard the same assertions. He was, however, happy to say, that there was not a single province In Spain in which the enemy had yet succeeded in establishing an unresisted authority. The contest, compared to any other, which the French had had to sustain, had been great, had been gigantic; and he was convinced that the mind of the Spanish people was yet unconquered, and he believed unconquerable. It would be a new fact in history, if a nation rising as Spain had risen, could be overcome. As to what had been said by the noble baron, of the British army possessing no more of Portugal than the circumscribed space

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within its entrenchments, he would beg leave to remind him that there were four provinces in that kingdom which not a French soldier had hitherto entered. The situation of the army was that, which had been chosen by its commander as one which enabled him to oppose the enemy with the greatest advantage and effect. And here he would ask, had not the character of French wars and French armies been somewhat changed by the events of the last three years? Whether the tone of that government was what it used to be, when the French ruler proclaimed his march to be irresistible, and announced with such presuming confidence his intentions of driving us into the sea?
The noble lord had objected to the time and form of the vote proposed, which he considered as unusual and unparliamentary. He could, however, produce many instances in which similar votes had been passed, immediately after the army estimates had been laid before the House. As to its amount, and the means of the country as connected with it, he must again express his decided opinion, that so long as there was a fair prospect of success, it was the policy of this country to avert the battle from its own shores. He believed that nine-tenths of the country would rather continue to sustain the burdens or privations it might impose, than abandon the struggle in the Peninsula. The noble baron had dwelt on the interests of Ireland: but how must her danger be increased, if the western coasts of Spain and Portugal should be in the possession of the enemy. So powerfully did this consideration operate on his mind, that he must conceive Ireland more, if possible, than any other part of the empire interested in the present crisis of the campaign. Should all the exertions that had been made ultimately fail, and the conflict be at length transferred to our own shores, we should still reap this important advantage from the present measures, that we should have an experienced army to depend on. When the fate of Russia and Prussia so clearly shewed that it was not to regular forces that the safety of nations could be always securely confided, if those forces were without experience, it must be gratifying and consolatory to know, that in the last extremity there would be a British army who had acquired a practical skill in the arts of war, who would be then entrusted with the defence of their native land.
The Earl of Grosvenorobserved, that
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when he recollected the sanguine hopes which had been expressed concerning the probable results of our expeditions to the Peninsula, he could not help feeling considerable disappointment. He was willing' yet to indulge an expectation that something might be done, though it must depend on many contingencies, and particularly on the conduct of his Majesty's ministers, who were acting under a most heavy responsibility. It appeared, however, that we must no longer look for the voluntary exertions of the natives in the Peninsula, who were henceforth to be dependent on our subsidies. After several further observations, the noble earl said, that he could not entirely acquiesce in the sentiments of his noble friend (lord Grenville), and should therefore assent to the motion.
The original question was then put and carried.