Sitting of 6 March 1811

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. Creeveysaid, he came to exercise his undoubted right as a member of parliament, of saying or moving any thing upon the subject of Grievances, whenever the question of Supply was before the House. On that day of this present session, when a Supply was first mentioned, he had, in the exercise of this same right, complained of the intolerable grievance of passing various bills of the first importance last session, at hours of the night when few members were present, and the subject of them impossible to be discussed or known. Yesterday had produced a new Standing Order from the House, professing to remedy this evil, by giving precedence on certain days to Orders of the Day before Notices, and on other days to Notices before Orders of the Day: but the avowed principle of this new Order was convenience to members, and no advantage to the public: the grievance he had complained of was not redressed by this

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new Order, and therefore he had voted against it—as many Bills might still be brought on at four o'clock in the morning, after fifty other orders of the day; and therefore, where was the protection of this new Standing Order? Under these circumstances, it became the indispensible duty of members to insist upon their right of making motions without notice, upon subjects when the interests of the country were most deeply involved, and when the right of making such motions was one of the vital principles of the constitution; these subjects were, whenever supply was before the House—whenever that name was mentioned, any member had a right, by immemorial parliamentary law and usage, immediately to originate any motion, complaining of, or inquiring into a grievance. He then quoted, as an authority, a case in the House of Commons, in the beginning of Charles I, when on a supply being moved, lord Coke stated, amongst other grievances, "new-invented offices with large fees"—"unprofitable offices, which the king might partly take away with law, with love of his people, and his own honour"—"multiplicity of offices in one man"—"voluntary pensions or immunities, which ought to be stopped till the king's debts were paid." And then lord Coke moved for a committee to put down these things. This was the true way, this was the way in which all our sinecure placemen ought to be dealt with; and if they were to be all brought forward one after another, upon these motions of supply, it would do more to get quit of this scandal, so justly odious to the country, and so naturally injurious to the characters of public men, than all the reports on these subjects put together. Taking one of the leading grievances upon this subject, namely, the paying the marquis of Buckingham and lord Camden 50,000 l. between them, out of the taxes, for doing nothing, he moved "That the House do consider this Grievance this day fortnight."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that he supposed the hon. gent. entertained so strong a sentiment of repugnance to the Resolution of the House last night, as to be determined to lose no time in showing his hostility to it. He could not conceive what other motive could induce him so immediately to break in upon the established practice of the House, a practice that had prevailed for the last thirty years. He admitted most readily,
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that it was the right of every member to avail himself of the privilege of making a motion at any time without a previous notice; but it was a privilege which courtesy to the House required should be exercised only in cases where a loss of time was a material consideration. So far was this, however, from being the case at present, that the hon. member's motion only implied his intention of doing something at the expiration of a fortnight. He trusted, therefore, that he would not find many to support him in thus directly contravening the deliberate resolution of the House on the preceding evening.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that the motion should certainly have his support, inasmuch as it was meant to try the right of every individual member. He was the last man to wish that courtesy to the House should be neglected, but the right hon. gent. was not contented with the convenience derived from the observance of this courtesy, but had rather acted on the principle, that because the House granted certain indulgencies, he would extend his claims, and make them matter of right. He was not the first minister who had lost his temper, and indeed it was very hard on him that he should have to spend so many hours in that House. But he apprehended that the experience of last session gave him an additional cause of alarm, and that he was afraid not merely of being kept out of bed, but of being left in a minority—a still greater inconvenience.
Mr. Witberforcethought that the object of the Resolution was only to try an experiment for the purpose of promoting the general accommodation of the House, and of facilitating public business. It was therefore, in his opinion, rather unfair so soon to attempt an infringement of it. The inconvenience which it sought to remedy, had been acknowledged on all sides, and he could not regard it, therefore, as any deep laid scheme of the ministers to prevent those discussions in that House., which were so necessary under a free government. Wishing well as he did to the interests of the country, he feared that they were sometimes in danger of suffering by deferring the consideration of questions in which they were involved to party objects and divisions.
Mr. Ponsonbyhad no doubt of the veracity of the hon. member's frequent declaration of the honesty and purity of his intentions, but he should not have thought it necessary to remind him that the charge

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of delaying or obstructing public business, could not justly be applied to that side of the House. Who had the power of terminating the session? Who the power of calling Parliament together? The minister did all this, and it was therefore idle to impute any accidental inconvenience of a want of time for the due consideration of important questions to any individual members of the House. He was far from desiring to give any captious opposition to the Resolution of last night, but the present motion involved a point, as he deemed, of the highest importance, not only to the privileges of the House but to the interests of the country.
Sir F. Burdettthought it was the intention of the hon. gent. merely to assert the right inherent in a member of Parliament, of making a motion without notice, and imagined it was not his intention to divide the House.
Mr. Creevey,in reply, stated such to be his motive.
The Amendment was then put, and negatived without a division.
Mr. Whitbreadgave notice, that in consequence of the Resolution which had been come to, he should on an early day, submit certain regulations to the House, which that Resolution made necessary. He intended to move, That the Orders of the Day should be called over in regular succession; and also to move, That no motion of importance should be brought on alter ten o'clock.