Sitting of 4 March 1811

DISPUTE WITH AMERICA.
Mr. Whitbreadmoved, that that paragraph in the Prince Regent's Speech, which related to the discussions with America, should be read, in order to entitle him to ask a question on that subject. [The paragraph was then entered as read.] He had on a former night put a question to the right hon. gent, opposite relative to the State of the discussions so long pending

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between his Majesty's government and the American minister, and he then rose to request some further information on this subject, in explanation of what the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said in reply to him on Friday night. He had then asked that right hon. gent, whether the hopes held out in the Speech, of a favourable termination of our difference with America, were done away, the American minister having had his audience of leave? The right hon. gent., if he understood him right, answered, that the hopes of a favourable termination to the present discussions were not at an end; for that, though the minister had indeed had his audience of leave, a chargé d'affaires still remained to conduct these discussions. It was added, that a minister plenipotentiary had been appointed here to proceed to the United States. It was of the utmost importance that the real state of the case should be thoroughly understood. He therefore took that opportunity to state to the right hon. gent., that he had it in a circuitous way, but from good authority, that the American minister considered the discussions as at an end before the audience of leave; that though a chargé d'affaires was to remain here, he was not to carry on those discussions; but that Mr. Foster, on his arrival in America, would have to originate the whole anew. In this situation of things, he asked the right hon. gent., whether he would have any objection to lay the correspondence between Marquis Wellesley and Mr. Pinkney before the House? As to any influence they could have on the Americans, they would know them sooner through their own press than from their publication here, and it was of the utmost importance they should be known here as soon as possible. In the common channels of information he had seen articles, with some shew of coming from anthority, in which the differences were stated to be upon points which never could have been in discussion at all. He wished this matter to be set right. It was highly desirable, not only that the property of the merchant should be secured, but that the minds of the people in both countries should be kept free from whatever irritation and hostile feeling might arise from error and misconception.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had not been misunderstood in the main part of his statement, although the hon. gent, had certainly mistaken what he had said on
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some points. He was pretty sure that when he mentioned that an American chargé d'affaires was to be left in this country, he stated that it was for carrying on the accustomed political intercourse and diplomatic relations between the two countries; but that he never staled or implied that the chargé d'affaires was to carry on the particular discussions. That was certainly not the province of a chargé d'affaires, and therefore those discussions were terminated in this country previous to Mr. Pinkrey taking his audience of leave. There was a great deal of difference, however, between such cessation of the discussion and the discussion being altogether broken off, as had been stated by the hon. gent. His Majesty's ministers most unquestionably did not conceive the discussions to be closed. On the contrary, the minister who was going to America would take over propositions on the part of this government, which they conceived to be intitled to a favourable re ception in America. The hon. gent. had asked him, whether he had any objection to lay before the House the correspondence between Marquis Weliesley and Mr. Pinckney on this subject? He must answer, that he saw very considerable objections to it. Although it" America, the practice might prevail of publishing such correspondence before the discussion was terminated, yet it appeared to him that such a practice was often very prejudicial to the successful termination of the discussion itself. For example, if there should be a parliamentary discussion on points actually in discussion between the two governments, it was not unlikely that arguments and topics might suggest themselves to the ingenuity of some members of that House, which had never occurred to the American Government, and which being so suggested and published in our papers, might retard the desired termination of the discussions, by encouraging the other party to carry their pretensions farther than they would otherwise have thought of. He thought it, besides, an inconvenient and bad practice, to expose the confidential communications of two governments before the discussion was completely terminated.
Mr. Whitbreadnow understood the right hon. gent, to mean, that the chargé d'affaires was not to continue the discussions on the matters in dispute, but merely to keep up the general diplomatic correspondence between the two countries. The

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points of difference he conceived were three; the business of the Chesapeake, the system of blockade, and the orders in council. It did certainly appear very extraordinary, that the American minister should have considered the discussions on these points as terminated, while the government here thought otherwise. The right hon. gent. refused to lay the correspondence before the House, and blamed the Americans for publishing such documents. When the Americans got the right hon. gent.'s speech, perhaps, it would prevail upon them to alter the practice; but in the present instance, the misfortune was that the papers would be published in America before the speech could possibly get there. Besides, though they had the speech, the argument would not apply; for they, no doubt, would consider the discussion as terminated. But he thought it of such great importance that the whole of this business should be known, that on Friday, he would move for the production of the correspondence.

PETITION OF PRINTERS, BOOKSELLERS, AND PUBLISHERS.
Mr. Henry Martinpresented a Petition from the Printers, Booksellers, and Publishers, of the united kingdom, setting forth,
" That the petitioners constitute a numerous and respectable class of the community, and the employment in which they are engaged being intimately connected with the interests of literature, and productive of many advantages to the state, has ever been considered as entitled to the protection and encouragement of the legislature; and that the petitioners have of late felt themselves aggrieved in the exercise of their trade and business by the provisions of the act 39 Geo. 3, c. 79, intituled, 'An Act for the more effectual suppression of societies established for seditious and treasonable purposes, and for better preventing treasonable and seditious practices;' and, as they humbly apprehend that the regulations which they beg leave to submit to the consideration of the House have been productive of hardships never meant to be imposed upon the petitioners, they are encouraged to hope that the grievance of which they complain will find a remedy in the wisdom and humanity of parliament; and that the preamble to that part of the act in which the petitioners are principally concerned states, 'That whereas all persons printing and publishing
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any papers or writings are by law answerable for the contents thereof, but such responsibility hath of late been in a great degree eluded by the secret printing and publication of such seditious, immoral, and irreligious papers or writings as aforesaid, and it is therefore highly important to the public peace that it should in future be known by whom any such papers shall be printed;' and in section 27 it is enacted, 'That from and after the expiration of forty days after the passing of the said act, every person who shall print any paper or book whatsoever, which shall be meant or intended to be published or dispersed, whether the same shall be sold or given away, shall print upon the front of every such paper, if the same shall be printed on one side only, and upon the first and last leaves of every paper or book which shall consist of more than one leaf, in legible characters, his or her name, and the name of the city, town, parish, or place, and also the name, if any, of the square, street, lane, court, or place in which his or her dwelling house or usual place of abode shall be; and every person who shall omit so to print his name and place of abode on every such paper or book printed by him, and also every person who shall publish or disperse, or assist in publishing or dispersing, either gratis or for money, any printed paper or book which shall have been printed after the expiration of forty days from the passing of this act, and on which the name and place of abode of the person printing the same shall not be printed as aforesaid, shall for every copy of such paper so published or dispersed by him forfeit and pay the sum of 20 l.;' and that the petitioners, sensible of the policy of preventing the dissemination of 'treasonable, irreligious, immoral,' or libellous publications, submit, without repining, to a variety of regulations, by which their occupation is treated as of a character so suspicious, as to stand in need of preliminary securities for anticipated misbehaviour, and is subject to jealous and irksome restraints to which no other branch of useful and honest industry is condemned; but though the petitioners have anxiously endeavoured to comply with the provisions of the law, they have found themselves exposed, by accidental mistake or trivial omission, to grievous and vexatious prosecutions, and to the danger of incurring pecuniary penalties to an

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enormous amount, without having been guilty of any thing offensive to morals, religion, or government; that, by the above-recited act, a penalty of 20 l. is imposed for every copy of any book or paper printed without the name or place of abode of the printer being thereto affixed with the most minute precision; and the petitioners humbly represent to the House, that the accidental violation of this part of the act, in the most inconsiderable circumstance, is attended with a severity of punishment which could not have been foreseen or intended. It frequently happens that hand-bills for the discovery of stolen property, or other objects of a similar nature, must, for the public accommodation, be published within a few hours from the time the manuscript is given to the printers, and the copies may, in defiance of all ordinary precaution, issue from the press without containing the printer's name or place of abode, according to the literal direction of the act; in such a case, penalties to the amount of 100,000 l. may be incurred by a publication of the most innocent nature; the number of copies of hand-bills, and other papers of that kind, usually printed, is from 250 to 5,000, and on every separate copy a penalty of 20 l. attaches; the printer may thus be exposed to utter ruin by the inadvertence of his servants during his temporay absence, or by their negligence or fraud, after he has taken every precaution to satisfy the provisions of the law. In fact, printers have in various instances been harrassed by repeated prosecutions for different copies of the same publication; the omission of the word "London" in the description of a printer's place of abode, in addition to that of a well-known street in the metropolis, which precluded all sapposition of wilful disobedience of the law, has been deemed to be an offence under the statute, and has subjected the party charged to protracted prosecution and ex-pence; for transgressions of no higher malignity than this, the petitioners are liable to a severity of punishment which would be deemed adequate atonement for the most aggravated misdemeanor. In several instances, persons have been entrapped into a violation of the law by common informers, and have been prosecuted under circumstances which implied no blame whatever; the offences too, of which such may be the ruinous consequences, an withdrawn from the impartial and human" cognizance of a jury, and decided upon
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summary proceedings before a single justice of the peace; no appeal to the quarter sessions from the decision of the justice is allowed, the magistrate has not even the power of mitigating the penalty in the most favourable circumstances, nor will any number of convictions bar farther proceedings, while a single copy can be produced on which a penalty has not been awarded, and the common informer being exempted from the payment of costs in case of failure, is not deterred from repeating his vexatious attempts to obtain a conviction; and that, as the petitioners are amenable to the laws for any seditious, immoral, irreligious, or libellous books or papers, which they may be guilty of printing and publishing, they submit with becoming humility to the House, that it is unnecessary to secure, by such excessive accumulation of penalties, a compliance with a regulation which, in case of an inoffensive paper, they can have no interest to omit, and of which the punishment is so disproportioned to the offence. If the publication be of an illegal nature, or of a dangerous tendency, the printer is discovered when there is evidence to convict him of neglecting the regulation of the act, and he may be punished according to the degree of guilt which he has really incurred. The House, indeed, cannot doubt that the provisions in question have been converted into an engine of vexation and oppression to the petitioners, without any benefit to the public, when they are informed, that, in every instance of prosecution, the publication on which the. printer has been sued has been of an innocent or even useful nature; in most cases, though the punishment may be so severe, an improper motive cannot even be imputed to the offender, there is no temptation to fraudulent evasion, and the occasions on which the printer is most likely to expose himself to exorbitant forfeitures, are those in which his vigilance is beguiled by the innocence of the matter. Contemplating disobedience to this act he would guard against detection, but in printing an harmless hand bill, he does not reflect that he may forfeit 100,000 l. by the forget fulness of a moment; all the chances of escape are reserved for deliberate violation of the law, and the utmost severity of forfeiture is incident to casual inadvertency; and the petitioners beg leave further to submit to the House, that, while penalties and inconveniencies of such serious magnitude may be incurred without

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any intention to violate the law, and without any criminal negligence of conduct, persons of common prudence must be deterred from engaging in an occupation attended with such hazard. The petitioners are the principal sufferers by the hardships, laid upon a business from which they expected to gain a reputable subsistence, and which it is too late for them to abandon, but the discouragement so severely felt by them, will ultimately prove injurious to the public at large, since it must tend to banish capital, ability, and reputation from a branch of industry by which numbers of persons are now honourably supported, from which no inconsiderable revenue is derived to the state, and which once was considered deserving of the peculiar favour of a free country. The violation of the law against which it was the object of the legislature to guard, is most likely to be committed by men who have neither property nor character to forfeit, and it would probably be found that the security of the public from seditious, immoral, irreligious, or libellous publications, can be little promoted by the studied degradation of the press, and by compelling all men of spirit, integrity, and prudence, to seek other means of employment; and praying the House to take the premises into consideration, and to grant them such relief as to the wisdom of the House shall seem meet." The petition was ordered to lie upon the table; and Mr. Martin gave notice, that in consequence of the grievances there stated, he would, on this day fortnight, move for leave to bring in a bill, to explain and amend the 39th of the king, relating to this subject.

PAPERS RELATING TO THE EAST INDIA COMPANY.
Mr. Creeveyrose, pursuant to notice, to submit to the House a motion relative to the amount of the dividend made by the directors of the East India Company in the teeth of an act of parliament, at a time when they could not shew that they had any profits, from which alone such dividends were authorised to be made by law. The hon. gent. assured the House that he should that night content himself with moving for a paper to ascertain the fact, that at the last time of declaring the dividend a sum of 630,000 l. was distributed in dividends. Although he should only now move for that paper, yet he thought it but fair to state, that in his view of the subject, this was a direct
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violation of the laws. In the act of William III. by which this company was established, as also by the act of queen. Anne, in which they were allowed to add 1,200,000 l. to their original capital of two millions, it was expressly enacted, for the security of the proprietors and their creditors, that there should be no dividend except upon the net profits. In 1765 a great alteration took place in the affairs of the company. The grant of Bengal from the Great Mogul elevated this company of merchants into territorial sovereigns. Although the original contract was changed by this circumstance, yet the rents of India, as well as the proceeds, were regulated by strict appropriation. The company were to be allowed to divide S per cent. on their capital, and of the excess of income, alter this dividend, three fourths were to go to the public, and one fourth to the company. If it should appear that there were no net proceeds, they were not entitled by law to issue any dividend. By a subsequent arrangement, after a dividend of 10 per cent. they were required to set apart half a million for a sinking fund, to pay their debts, and to give another half million to the public. The dividends were to be made only out of the proceeds, and according to the account of many of the directors, there had been no proceeds for a number of years. Not finding themselves able this year to pay the dividends by the old devices, they borrowed from government a million and a half, under pretence of carrying on their trade, but really, as he believed, to pay their dividends. He believed that if their affairs were truly stated, it would appear that the company was now 15 millions worse than nothing. They might, to be sure, have an equitable claim on the territory of India for that sure, on the assertion that many of their expences had been brought on them by the government at home. It was impossible for any company to have managed worse than they had done. They were now within three years of the expiration of their charter, and all their stock was spent. If the charter should not be renewed to them, they would still remain a great company, having power to trade to the East Indies, but they would not have this privilege exclusively, as they have at present. He gave notice, that he would, on a future day, bring this conduct of the directors under the consideration of the House; but at present, in order merely to ascertain

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the fact, he moved "for the statement of the dividend of the years 1810–11, and of the rate per cent."
Mr. Astellcould have no objection to give the papers which were applied for. The hon. member would find that his ideas on the subject were perfectly erroneous. His statement was unfair and unfounded both in the law and the fact; and there could be nothing more prejudicial than to send forth to the public and the proprietors so unfounded a representation of the state of the company's funds. He did not understand the law sufficiently to detail it or argue upon it in the case before the House, but he understood from those who were perfectly versed in it, that the law and the fact bore out the directors in the line which they had pursued.
Lord Folkestonedefended the statements of his hon. friend, which he said were drawn from the exposition of the directors themselves. From this it was clear that after deducting seven millions due to the proprietors of capital stock, yet more than seven millions were deficient, though the hon. chairman had roundly contradicted the fact, while he admitted his ignorance of the law. The act of parliament clearly laid down that the dividends should be paid out of the net proceeds of the company, and as this had not been complied with, he felt himself called on to support the motion of his hon. friend.
Mr. Grantsaid, that the hon. gent. had entirely mistaken the scope and meaning of the law and acts of parliament, and drawn wrong inferences from them. It should be recollected that the whole territorial property of the company, together with the assets and other property, were to be set off against these seven millions—not to speak of the prospective resources of the company, which, instead of going on from bad to worse, as stated by the hon. gent. were much better than they had been. He did not feel it necessary at present to go far into the question, but he had to complain of the exaggerated statements which had been made, without any vouchers or papers to support them.
Lord A. Hamiltonobserved, that he did not think the statements of his hon. friend had been at all invalidated by the observations of the hon. directors, who had merely contradicted the law and the fact, without entering into an explanation of either. He thought that it would be right that the right hon. gent. who presided at the Board of Control, should satisfy
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the House in some degree on the question before them. He felt some surprise that the directors should find no profits to pay the public out of the net proceeds, but quite enough to pay themselves. Under all the circumstances of the case, he would vote for the production of the papers, in order to see the principles of the hon. gent. and the grounds on which they proceeded.
Mr. Adamhad no wish to bring on an extended discussion, but from his connection with the company, he thought it necessary for him to deliver his opinion. After the most minute consideration of the 107th and 111th sections of the Act of 1793, he must say, that the conduct of the East India company, and of the directors in particular, was perfectly correct in point of law, and justified in all its parts by the act of parliament. The grand fundamental principle which was to be considered by those who came to treat the question was, that the India system was the government of a great territory by a commercial company, audit was the right and duty of that commercial company to have their dividends paid out of the profits of their commerce.
Mr. R. Thorntonwould not set about following the gentlemen who had already spoken on the other side of the House, as their information was so defective and their suppositions so extravagant. The hon. mover had told the company that they were beggars—all beggars—fifteen millions worse than nothing. How extravagant! That hon. gent. would perhaps have no objection to some of their stock, or a few of their India bonds, beggars as they were; or, whatever his contempt for them might be, he would not dislike a few of their acres of territory.
Sir H. Montgomerysaid shortly, that the distresses of the company arose out of their extravagance, in speculations of trade, and their wasteful mode of raising money. He then proceeded to detail some of the modes adopted for the circulation of the company's bills in India, and ended by saying, that the directors would have to provide for twelve millions of bills in the course of the present year.
Mr. H. Smithsaid, that the territorial expences of the company naturally absorbed a portion of their commercial profits; but under all the disadvantages of late years, the company were bound to pay their dividend, and by so doing benefit the public service at the same time.
Mr. Creeveyhad heard nothing to convince him of his error. He had been charged with misconceiving the law and the fact. But for the fact, he had only taken the documents that were on their table. He found a learned member (Mr. Adam) agreeing with him that the company were entitled to pay a dividend only out of their profits; so that finally he had for his fact the secretary of the directors, unless they chose to disown their secretary's act; and for his law, he had the authority of the counsel to the board. By the documents signed by the secretary, the company were certainly fifteen millions worse than nothing. But it would be expedient to know if any case on the subject had been submitted to that learned counsel, and if it were, it ought to be laid before the House, as, on a subject of such high importance, they could not have too much information.
Sir J. Newportwished to know, before the motion was put, whether the minister did not intend to give notice to apprise the House of the expiration of the company's charter.
Mr. R. Dundasreplied, that proper notice would be given.
The motion was then put and carried.

FOREIGN MINISTERS' PENSIONS BILL.
Mr. Leach, pursuant to notice, rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to explain and amend so much of the act of last session as related to the granting of pensions to ministers who might have served his majesty at foreign courts. The grounds upon which he brought forward his motion were few and simple. It must be obvious, that diplomatic appointments, though the situations were high and honourable, were not sought after by persons to whom the revenue of office was indifferent. There might have been some exceptions, but in general such offices were courted as likely to afford an honourable provision. The revenue enjoyed during service afforded no fund for future provision, and when it was considered that persons holding diplomatic appointments uniformly detached themselves from their connections, and abandoned all views from the prosecution of professions, it must be obvious that they were entitled to some provision after the cessation of their services, or in the interval of non-employments. As it was necessary to hold out encouragement to persons of a liberal education and accomplishments to undertake
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this office, it became the consideration of parliament in 1782, and they then made provision for them. The words of the act of last session introduced a change of policy, and lessened the encouragement which parliament had pledged themselves to bestow upon such individuals. No person could now engage in this branch of public service without being independent; but he submitted to the House whether it could be just to apply the provisions of that act to persons who had actually been in that employment previous to its passing. They, perhaps, would not have accepted of their situations, if they had not expected remuneration for their meritorious services. As that act might disappoint their just expectations, he thought that it ought to be explained and amended upon that point to which he had alluded.
Sir Arthur Pigottseconded the motion.
Mr. Abercrombysaid, he could not at present approve of this bill, and although he would not oppose the motion, should take a future opportunity of stating his sentiments. He protested against the argument that the act of 1732, held out a pledge by parliament to persons in the diplomatic service, that could not with justice be altered. If such a principle were to be carried into all the branches of the public service, it would be opposing all beneficial regulations.
Mr. Wilberfarcethought it would not be proper to provide pensions for those who under took the diplomatic department, merely for a year or two, but it would be desirable to provide public remuneration for those who devoted themselves entirely to that line, and therefore a specific time should be mentioned.
Mr. Fullerthought that this was a matter which ought to be left to the government of the country, so that they might remunerate persons according to their deserts.
Mr. Bankeswas of opinion that the bill brought in last session was extremely proper, as it guarded the public rights, and ought not to be altered.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

PENITENTIARY HOUSES.
Mr. Secretary Ryder, in pursuance of his notice, rose to move for a committee to inquire into the expediency of the erection of Penitentiary Houses. He assured an hon. and learned gent. opposite (sir S. Romilly), who first brought the subject before the House, that much as he differed with him

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on other subjects, he most cordially agreed with him on this. Desirable, however, as the measure must be allowed to be, gentlemen, he was persuaded, would feel the necessity of investigating the subject by a committee, before the House proceeded to an undertaking which would cost a very large sum of money, and he therefore moved, "That a committee be appointed to consider the expediency of erecting a Penitentiary House or Penitentiary Houses, under the acts of the 34th and 19th of his present Majesty; and to report, in case they should deem the adoption of the measure now referred to them beneficial, whether any additional provision would be wanted for the same, and what number of individuals that house or those houses should be calculated to receive."
Sir S. Romillywould not oppose the motion, though he was still of opinion, that on a subject clear almost to demonstration, an address to the crown at once would be the preferable proceeding. As a committee was to be appointed, however, he thought the objects of their inquiry should be more extensive. He would have then investigate the comparative advantages of confinement in penitentiary houses with imprisonment in the hulks, and transportation to New South Wales. It might turn out, that the first of those punishments might frequently be substituted, with benefit both to the culprit and the public, for the two last; and more particularly for the last, the effects of which were, he believed, frequently the reverse of those which it was intended to produce, and the expence of which was enormous when compared with the expence of erecting penitentiary houses. He proposed as an amendment to insert the words—" And that the committee inquire into the effects that have been produced by the punishments of transportation to New South Wales, and of imprisonment on board the hulks, and report their opinion and observations thereon to the House."
Mr. Whitbreadbore testimony to the excellent regulations of the hulks, and to the praiseworthy attention of Mr. Graham, under whose direction they were.
Mr. Wilberforcespoke to the same effect, and expressed a hope that the adoption of the amendment might not protract the completion of the report of the committee.
Mr. Secretary Ryderhad no objection to the amendment of his hon. and learned friend. Adverting to the subject of the
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imprisonment on board the hulks, he expressed his conviction, that at present more individuals were restored good members to society after this, than after any other mode of punishment.
The original motion was then agreed to, and the amendment of sir S. Romilly having been, at the suggestion of the Speaker, converted into a subsequent instruction to the committee, was in that form put and agreed to.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
Lord Palmerstonerose, in pursuance of his notice, to move the resolutions respecting the Army Estimates. So perfectly aware was he of the difficulty of drawing the attention of the House to the dry and complicated details on this subject, that it was his intention to limit his observations as much as possible. It was necessary, however, for him in the first place to point out to the committee, a circumstance, which any gentleman must have observed who had looked into the estimates, viz. that though the estimates were framed in the same manner and upon the same principle as the estimates of last year, yet there were various alterations, which had been adopted with a view to render more intelligible the complicated details into which the estimates unavoidably extended. The particular expenditure of Ireland was contained in a separate column, and many articles of charge were placed under distinct heads, which were usually included in the army extraordinaries or cast into an aggregate mass. He would now proceed to go through the various estimates in succession. The first was that which related to his Majesty's land forces; in which the committee would perceive an increase of four hundred and seventy two men, and a decrease in the charge of 18,400 l. This estimate was divided into several classes. The first was the household troops; the increase of the charge of which was 62 l. This was a small sum, but as it proceeded from a circumstance which affected the charge of the whole of the regular troops, he would explain it:—It was well known to those who were conversant with regimental details, that it had been the custom to stop a part of the pay of the drummers or trumpeters of every regiment for the purpose of increasing the pay of the drum-majors and trumpet-majors. It had been ascertained, however,

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that this custom was not authorised by law. It was therefore discontinued. But as the pay of the drum-majors and trumpet-majors was thereby reduced to an equality with that of the privates, it had been thought expedient to give them pay equal to that of serjeants, and this was effected throughout the whole army at an expence of between 3 and 4,000 l.
In the estimate of dragoon guards and dragoons, the charge would be found to have decreased 34,000 l. This decrease arose chiefly from the transfer in Ireland of the whole charge of forage to the commissariat department, and also (as he had on a former occasion stated) from the arrangement by which the charge of bread has also been transferred to that department. The next class of the regular land forces was the infantry of the line. In this there was an increase in number of 627, and in charge of 28,745 l. This increase was attributable to the transfer from the foreign corps of the 97th regiment, formerly composed principally of foreigners, but lately recruited so entirely from the militia in this country as to have become a complete British regiment, and of the new Brunswick fencibles raised originally in America and in the West Indies, a provincial corps, but which had recently offered itself for general service. The next class was the unnumbered corps. It would be found to have decreased, in men, 352, in charge 8,600 l. By the vote of last year it was resolved to reduce the waggon train, which had consisted of twelve troops, to seven. Three troops were immediately reduced, but the two others which were to be reduced, being in service with lord Wellington, two of the home troops were sent out to replace them, in order that they might return for the purpose of reduction. Lord Wellington, however, represented in such strong terms the advantage which he derived from the services of this corps, that the whole four troops were permitted to remain. There were consequently six troops of the waggon train with lord Wellington's army, one at Cadiz, and two at home. The estimate, therefore, for the waggon train had not decreased so much as was anticipated; but the great decrease of charge on this general head of unnumbered corps, arose from the transfer of the North Brunswick fencibles to the line, and from the total reduction of the Manx fencibles.
In the miscellaneous charges, which
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stood next in order in the estimates, there was a decrease in the charge of 185,000 l. which diminution arose from the difference, amounting to, 535,000 l. between effective and non-effective pay; of which difference 350,000 l. might be applied to defray the pay, clothing, &c. of men expected to be raised in the present year; the remainder constituted the decrease in this estimate, which he had already stated. He now proceeded to the estimate of the troops serving in the East Indies, the increase of which was 280,000 l. For this no aid would be required, and the estimate was placed among the rest only to allow the committee to perceive at one view the whole military charges of the country, if that were to be defrayed by the public.
The item next in succession in the estimates was that for the regular embodied militia, and in this he had to observe that there was a decrease of 2,000 in the number of men, and an increase of 20,000 in the amount of charge. When the estimates of last year were made up, the regiments of militia were incomplete, in consequence of the great reduction by the volunteering into the line. Three hundred thousand pounds had been deducted from the estimate last year on that account. Since that period the ballot had nearly filled the deficiencies up, and therefore in the present estimate only 155,000 l. had been deducted on account of the pay and clothing of non effectives. In the estimate of staff of garrisons, there was an increased charge of 600,000 l. This arose from an increase on the Irish staff of 37,000 l. and from an increase on the foreign staff of 36,000 l.; counteracted by a decrease in the home staff of 16,000 l. In the estimate of supernumerary officers, there was an increase of 2,000 l. in the estimate of allowances to the principal officers of several public departments, there was an increase of 1,900 l. In the estimate of half-pay and allowances to reduced officers there was an increase of 1,000 l. arising from the allowances to quarter masters, and the half pay to officers of the garrison battalions. The charge on the estimate of the in-pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham hospitals was decreased 4,700 l. in consequence of less money being necessary for the buildings. That on the out-pensioners appeared on the face of the estimates to be increased 93,000 l. arising from the circumstance, that as last year 100,000 l. out of 240,000 l.

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recovered from the prize agents, was appropriated in aid of those establishments, this year only 25,000 l. was so appropriated. The real increase, therefore, of charge was only 18,000 l.; 13,000 l. for England, and 5,000 l. for Ireland.
The noble lord then proceeded to notice the estimate for widow's pensions, in which there was an increase of 5,000 l. in consequence of a correspondent addition to the number of individuals, who are the objects of this fund. With respect to the volunteers, that extensive and important branch of the internal military organization of the country, gentlemen by looking into the estimates would find that there was a diminution to the amount of 303,000 l;—a diminution which arose chiefly in England from a reduction in the number of days on which the volunteers were to be called out on permanent duty. The greater part of this reduction took place in Ireland. The actual diminution of charge in England amounted only to 35,000 l. produced, as he had before stated, by the reduction of the number of days of duty: the remainder of the reduction then arose in Ireland, attributable in part to the same cause, but more particularly owing to the circumstance, that in that country the volunteers were not to be clothed this year. On the race of the estimate of the local militia, there appeared an increase of charge of 61,000 l. but this was attributable to the estimate of last year falling short of the expence by 128,000 l. owing to the too small sum allowed for clothing—to the augmentation of some of the corps—and to the addition of others. It was intended in the present year to reduce the number of training days from 21 to 14; and by this reduction a saving would be effected of 110,000 l. When the state of efficiency, in which the local militia was reported to be by the district officers, was considered, it might be presumed that the service would not suffer by this arrangement; the more especially as it was intended that those of the different corps which had not been out before, should be exercised for seven days previous to the regular training, under the permanent staff of their respective districts. In the estimate of foreign corps there was a decrease of charge of 2,100 l. in consequence of the incorporation of the 97th regiment into the line, and the total reduction of the regiment of Malta. The next estimate was that of the Royal Military College. In the body of this estimate it would be found,
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that the charge was decreased 29,700 l. a diminution arising from the supposition that no further sum would this year be required for the expence of building. Since the estimate had been framed, however, it had been signified to him that 30,000 l. would be required to complete the building for the junior department. One cause of an increase in a part of this estimate was the removal to Woolwich of the cadets of the artillery, who used to contribute 100 l. a year each to the establishment, and who were replaced by cadets, some of whom did not pay any thing, and none of whom contributed in an equal degree to their predecessors. The estimate of the Royal Military Asylum was nearly the same as last year. That of retired chaplains was increased in charge 1,600 l. The estimate of hospital expences was increased in charge 17,000 l.; 5,000 l for medicines, and the remainder for transfers made to that from other estimates. The compassionate list and king's bounty estimate was increased in charge 7,600 l in consequence of the increase in the number of prisoners that were entitled to relief. The estimate of the barrack department in Ireland, was increased in charge 23,000 l.; a very large portion of which arose from the lodging and fuel-money for recruiting parties from regiments on the British establishment. The charge on the estimate of the Irish Commissariat would be found to have increased 73,000 l. This was to be ascribed to the transfer to that department of the forage estimates.
On a general view of the whole of these estimates, it would appear, he observed, that there was a diminution in the number of men of 514; and that there was an increase in the charge of 42,000 l. Against this increase of charge, however, must be set, the saving which would arise from diminishing the number of days on which the local militia were to be trained, which saving did not distinctly appear on the face of the estimates, and a balance would then be left of 60,000 l. Of course he was aware that in such a variety of details there were many articles which he must have left unexplained. He would reserve himself, however, for whatever inquiries might be made on the subject, to make any explanations which might be necessary. Having said thus mach, his lordship observed, that he would sit down without detaining the committee longer, were he not anxious to draw the attention of the committee to the state of our regular army, and

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to the view which government took of that subject. This was a topic which obviously divided itself into two considerations—first, the amount of the force necessary; and secondly, the means by which that force should be kept up and. rendered effectual to its purpose.—With respect to the first consideration, it was a matter of congratulation to the country, that parliament was not now called upon to devise the means of creating a regular army It was not as at the commencement of the war, when all we had to oppose to the invader, was the ardent and invincible, but undisciplined spirit of the people. That time was gone by. The country had now the satisfaction to see that they possessed a regular military establishment so powerful, as not only to enable us to lay our heads on our pillows in security, but also to arrest the progress of the enemy in those countries which he had already called his own.—(Hear! hear! hear!) The attention of parliament, therefore, must be directed, not to the means of augmenting the regular army, but to the means of keeping it effective and complete. In order satisfactorily to pursue and perfect the investigation of this question, it became necessary to consider, first, what would be the probable amount of annual casualties, and secondly, from what sources the supply of those casualties could best and most effectually be provided. The regular force of the country, exclusive of artillery, amounted to 235,000 men, of whom about 211,000 might be considered fully effective.
But considering the various, and some of them dangerous, services in which our army was unavoidably engaged, the casualties could not be assumed at less than 22 or 23,000 men. For this number, therefore, it would be necessary to provide. What were the means? In the first place, the ordinary recruiting; the produce of which, however, must be confined within certain limits; for when the price of labour, which our extended agriculture, manufactures, and commerce occasioned. was considered, it was not to be expected that many would anticipate, in the profession of a soldier, such paramount advantages as would induce them to quit the peaceful occupations of civil life. He would state the probable produce of the ordinary recruiting, therefore, as low as 11,0 men. It was true, that in the year 1810, the returns amounted only to between 9 and 10,000 men; this was in a great measure to be attributed to the obstacles
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which the regular recruiting had to encounter last year from the ballot for the militia in the latter part of the year, and from the expectation of the ballot in the former part of it. In some years the produce of the ordinary recruiting had been as high as 19,000 men; but in the present state and circumstances of the country, he would not feel justified in calculating upon so large a result. From the foreign recruiting, taking the average of the last two years, it was fair to expect 4 or 5,000 men, making with the regular recruiting altogether about 16,000 men, which, it was likely, would be obtained by voluntary inlistment. To devise some mode of supplying the deficiency between that number and the number of casualties, was the province of government. It had occurred to them, that it would be advisable to recur to the means which experience had shewn to be so successful, namely, to allow a certain portion of the militia to volunteer into the line. The militia establishment was 92,000 men, of which the effectives might be considered to be 84,000, added to which there was due by ballot 5 or 6,000 men. Considering, on the one hand, the amount of the regular force which under any circumstance would be kept in this country, and on the other, the great security to the country arising from the local militia, which was every year increasing in discipline, it might be stated, without fear of contradiction, that the present establishment of the regular militia was greater than the national defence required. It was proposed to reduce it to the old establishment, namely, 70,000 for the two islands; and for this purpose to allow a number, not exceeding 10,000, to volunteer into the line. Tins measure was the less objectionable, as from the effective state of the militia, a new ballot would not be necessary until the end of the year 1812. His lordship expressed his persuasion that when parliament reflected on the number of men which had already been raised in this manner, they would be of opinion, with his Majesty's government, that it was the best method which could be adopted to meet the casualties, and the least likely to interfere with the ordinary recruiting. On the resumption of the House, it was his intention to move for leave to bring in a bill for this purpose. If leave were granted him, he should, after it had been read a first time, move that it be printed, in order to give ample

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opportunity for discussing the various provisions which it would contain. His lordship concluded by moving the first resolution.
General Tarletonrose and spoke as follows: Mr. Lushington, I return my thanks to the noble lord, for the clear manner in which he has stated the Estimates of the current year; but, although they contain circumstances of great moment, I shall call the immediate attention of the committee to a subject, growing out of this branch of the public service, which I consider to be deserving of paramount and prior consideration. I allude, Sir, to the war now carried on by Great Britain, on a very extended scale, within the boundaries of the continent of Europe. On this occasion I do not arrogate to myself a superior degree of patriotism, or of military knowledge, but I discharge a conscientious duty to my country; and, in the discharge of that duty, I will employ as much perspicuity and brevity as I can command.—It is my intention to attribute to his Majesty's ministers full credit for patriotic designs, and virtuous motives. That they conceive a war upon the continent will lessen the military power of Buonaparté; will protect our allies, the Spaniards and the Portuguese; and will delay, or ultimately defeat, the invasion of the British isles. On the contrary, I contend that such opinions, with our limited population, speaking comparatively of it with the population of Europe, will offer up as unnecessary victims, the best soldiers of Britain; will not avail ultimately, in the defence of our allies, as the integrity of British resources can alone give us present security, and, in a more remote degree, afford a point and beacon of rally and redemption to the prostrate nations of Europe: and that the expenditure of our brave men, and our military resources upon the continent, will co-operate with the ambitious designs of Buonaparté, and open a passage at an earlier period, and with more facility, to our mortal and inveterate enemy—Experience and common sense equally confirm the soundness and validity of these opinions. If any nation undertakes a line of military operation beyond its means, or comparatively so with those of the enemy, the result must naturally produce a melancholy termination. On the present occasion, I contend that our means are physically inadequate to the object in view, that the plan and system are founded in error and mistake,
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and must inevitably lead to disaster and destruction.—After this brief analysis of the argument between me and the gentleman opposite, I proceed to take a summary view of the two expeditions which have been sent by the ministers of the day, into the interior of Spain, before I state the operations of the campaign which commenced in 1810.—The papers and documents upon the tables of the two houses of parliament, clearly point out the rendezvous of the troops allotted to the command of Lieut. Gen. sir John Moore, and hold out a delusive expectation, that the army under his command would have been able to penetrate to Madrid, and render important service to the Spanish cause. We collect, likewise, from the papers in our possession, a description of the scanty state of the supplies to be expected by the British general, between Salamanca and the capital.—A small division of this army was therefore intrusted to the command of Lieut. Gen. sir John Hope, consisting principally of cavalry and artillery, who, by a circuitous march, reached the neighbourhood of Madrid. The vigilance of the commander, and the persevering activity of his officers and soldiers, extricated this detachment of the British army from a situation of imminent peril, as the French had occupied the pass of Samosierra, and were extending themselves, in overbearing numbers, on the route of this small column. I need not recapitulate to the committee all the disasters which pressed rapidly on sir John Moore, owing to the erroneous intelligence which was conveyed to him from authority, and from the harrassing movements of superior bodies of the enemy.—It is sufficient for my present purpose to say, that sir John Moore was compelled to offer battle, after hardships almost unparalleled, to an army which out-numbered his own, in the neighbourhood of Corunna. The committee will pardon me if I employ a few moments in giving a rapid sketch, yet faithful portrait, of this meritorious officer. He, like his great example, General Wolfe, had exercised his professional talents in the discipline of the troops which had been submitted to his command, and rendered them, by his attention, extremely skilful in every military movement: he, too, like his illustrious prototype, after a series of mental as well as bodily fatigues, expired in the arms of victory. Posterity, however, in regretting the premature conclusion of such valuable lives, cannot fail

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to appreciate the marked difference which resulted from their deaths. They both fought and conquered! Wolfe executed the plan of the earl of Chatham, and a victory gave England possession of Quebec and Canada. Moore was employed by these ministers, and, although he evinced genius, intrepidity, and constancy, which he sealed with his blood, his army embarked with a heavy loss and great difficulty, and the French forces have ever since been banished from the northern provinces of Spain. The other instance of attack, on our part, was, as far as the papers laid upon our table justify us informing a judgment, principally planned, and personally conducted, by lord Wellington. His design seems to have been to form a junction with our allies, the Spaniards; and by the joint efforts of this force, to expel the French from Madrid, and afterwards drive them beyond the river Ebro.—The British forces employed upon this occasion were about 30,000, and well selected for any enterprise. The Spaniards, under (General Cuesta, and other leaders, were much more numerous, but not equal, either in officers or discipline, to the British. The battle of Talavera received the thanks of the imperial parliament, expressed by the respective organs of both Houses, to the commander, the officers, and soldiers of the English army: his Majesty also marked the event, by conferring the distinction of a viscount upon sir Arthur Wellesley.—The history of the sequel to the battle of Talavera, discovers that lord Wellington left the principal part of his sick and wounded to the enemy, and, consigning his hospital to their humanity, by a rapid march to his rear, evaded the designs and power of Marshals Soult and Mortier. In crossing to the south bank of the Tagus, our allies sustained a heavy loss of men from one of the French corps, and lord Wellington sought security from the enemy, and cantonments for the British, on the unwholesome marshes of Estremadura. In this manner the second enterprise concluded, which was directed against the French, in the interior of the Spanish territories. The united army, not being able to penetrate to Madrid, theallies separated in disgust, and the British commander-in-chief returned to the neighbourhood of Lisbon.—Before I enter into a recital of the operations and the events of the campaign commenced in 1SI0, it will be highly correct to make two observations: I do not conceive the plan (by the word
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plan, I mean the military outline of the defence of Portugal) to have originated with lord Liverpool, who succeeded lord Castlereagh in the war department of this country. Although the noble lord did express a desire of marching to Paris in his earlier days, I do not think time has added to his chivalry, so much as to induce him to attack Madrid, in the years of his maturity. I therefore consider the suggestions with regard to offensive or defensive operations on the peninsula, to have proceeded principally from the judgment of lord Wellington.—My second observation I confine to lord Wellington entirely: I beg leave to premise that the mention of that noble lord, which I am obliged to make in a narrative of this description, does not bear with it a criticism or an attack upon lord Wellington's military conduct. The time is not yet come, the documents are not yet arrived, to enable me or the House to form a complete judgment on the subject of the present campaign. We are, unfortunately, only favoured with extracts of the noble lord's letters, from whence we cannot derive much information. In short, the name of the commander in chief can no more be omitted, than the names of Cato or Hamlet, in the representations of those dramatic productions.—The campaign of 1810 opened by the approach of the contending armies, under the direction and command of lord Wellington and marshal Massena, to the frontier of Spain. The former had, according to the best accounts I could obtain, a British force, of artillery, cavalry, and infantry, nearly amounting to 34,000 men. Marshal Beresford, who commanded the organized Anglo-Portuguese troops, had assembled about 20,000 of that nation, in the neighbourhood of lord Wellington's army; and this whole force was subject to the orders and control of the noble lord.—About the time of the appointment of marshal Massena to the command of the army destined for the invasion of Portugal, marshal Ney was employed in collecting and preparing magazines of every description, to enable the French to undertake the siege of Ciudad Rodrigo.—The impediments to warfare, of every description, in the neighbourhood of Salamanca, where depots were to be created, have been described in the papers placed on the table of this House. Sir John Moore and the British army had experienced these difficulties, on their first arrival in Spain, although the country had not at that period

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been impoverished by the troops of allies or enemies. The season of the year, likewise, in addition to the other difficulties, seemed to oppose an insuperable barrier to the design of the enemy. It cannot escape military notice, that the spring is more disadvantageous for the collection of subsistence titan the autumn, when the harvest is stored. This was the precise time, however, when the enemy collected magazines for the siege of Ciudad Rodrigo, and it is quite evident that the country was compelled to supply the demands and wants of the French, with respect to subsistence, as the transport of heavy cannon and military stores would require all the horses and carriages, both Spanish and French, within the grasp of the power of the latter, in order to advance so formidable an undertaking. For the defence of this fortress, the Spaniards made preparations, the works were inspected, the artillery placed upon the ramparts, and some select regiments of the Spanish line composed the garrison, which was expected to resist the effort of the assailants, according to the report which we received from the Lisbon Gazettes, for a considerable time. In the sort of narrative which I am now giving to the committee, which it is equally difficult and delicate for an English officer to attempt if I wish that narrative to be worthy of attention, I must describe the military events which present themselves, without any bias or partiality, and by adhering as closely to the line of truth as the present materials will allow me to discover it, give a faithful delineation of the facts. As the obstacles which presented themselves to the enemy were of no common description, great expectations were created by the reports of the day, and the newspapers of this country, that the enemy would fail in the enterprise commenced. For, in looking at the investiture of Ciudad Rodrigo, the local disadvantages, with regard to subsistence and the roads, were not the only impediments in the way of the French army. Lord Wellington, with the allied forces, was posted in the neighbourhood of that fortress. I cannot help remarking to the committee, at this moment, the fondness of the majority of the gentlemen opposite, of calling in, upon a variety of occasions, the assistance of great authorities. We too have our military authorities; and we regard the conduct of the duke of Marlborough, of prince Eugene, and of the king of Prussia, in as
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high a point of value and consideration, as those hon. gentlemen do the sayings of lord Coke, judge Holt, and Mr. Justice Blackstone. The duke of Marlborough and prince Eugene considered the investiture of Lisle as a difficult operation, after they had weakened the French power, and driven it from the field. The first illustrious character commanded the army of observation, and prince Eugene superintended the works directed against the place. Notwithstanding this combination of power and talent, Lisle made a gallant defence, and, by a protracted fall, averted the evils which seemed to threaten France. Yet in the presence of the allied army, Ciudad Rodrigo did not make a long defence, and marshal Massena pressed forwards to the Portuguese frontier. By a variety of channels of information, the people of England were made acquainted with the superior numbers of the French cavalry, and that the plains laying around Ciudad Rodrigo were unfavourable to the operations of an army, whose principal force consisted of infantry. But it was represented that the rivers and the mountains, in the vicinity of Almeida, presented a different scene of action, and more sanguine hopes of the failure of the French, in the attack of that place, were consequently entertained by the Portuguese and the British nations. It is natural to suppose that, previous to the attack of the enemy, the place was thoroughly inspected; that the works were strengthened as much as possible, and that the best means were adopted to enable the garrison to make a long defence. Lord Wellington undoubtedly had the option of defending the fortress, and the selection of the troops, for maintaining Almeida, which some writers have staled to be the strongest and largest place on the frontier of Portugal. On the approach of the French, the rear guard of lord Wellington fell back over the river Coa, and Almeida was invested. I cannot help reminding the committee of the examinations which took place within these walls, with respect to the Walcheren expedition, in the course of the last session of parliament. That enterprise, it must be recollected, received the thanks of this House; and, in the course of the proceedings to which I have alluded, it appeared that some officers, and some ministers, vaunted their own vigour, in being prepared to produce and open forty pieces of heavy cannon against Antwerp, within the period

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of twenty days, in ease a landing had been effected upon the continent. Let us candidly survey the facilities and the difficulties which presented themselves to the British and the French on these two occasions. The English possessed the most ample naval means that the history of the world can produce, to transport the apparatus necessary for any siege to the continent, and the contiguity of Woolwich to the water is well known, and favourable to such a design. The French had to struggle against every difficulty, arising from a tedious land carriage—hostile and exasperated country—bad roads—and poverty of every description. Yet we discovered, I believe, in our own accounts of that transaction, that against the fortress of Almeida, they opened their fire from 63 pieces of heavy ordnance, and that Almeida surrendered after a defence of 48 hours. If any person infers from this statement, that I depreciate the vigour, the talents, and the courage of the gallant officers and soldiers of my country, and raise those of our enemy into a state of superiority, I will give him a direct denial. My examination of military records and my personal knowledge in the field, both enable me to approve the conclusion which proceeded from marshal Villars, after a long experience and many severe conflicts against the British, that "he would prefer the command of 2,5,000 national English, to 30,000 of any other nation in the world." I only make these statements, as I am supported by facts, to prove the small degree of vigour in this vigorous administration, and the madness of our continental experiments. With the account of the fall of Almeida, strong insinuations of treachery against some officers of the garrison, and rumours of a conspiracy at Lisbon, reached this country. As to the particular points of the supposed infidelity, or of the magnitude of the conspiraey in the capital of Portugal, we are not in possession of any documents to enable us to decide with propriety. But the history of the world affords a general solution to similar reports under similar circumstances. All historians have described the effects of invasion and overthrow, and have naturally and invariably shewn, that a people ceases to possess confidence when they cannot obtain protection. The early and unexpected surrender of these fortresses, Ciudad Rodrigo and Almeida, must have produced disagreeable sensations in the
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minds of our allies, and instantaneously occasioned those military movements which they had not anticipated. It had been represented, both in Lisbon and the camp, that the defence of two fortified places, well stored and garrisoned for a siege, and within the reach of one day's march of the allied army, would have augmented the enemy's difficulties so as to have occasioned a retreat, or that the protracted defence of those fortresses would have called in aid the periodical rains of the country to defeat the entire design of the French. The stores found in the fallen citadals must necessarily have been of great utility to marshal Massena, and the ground occupied by the enemy obliged lord Wellington to retrograde with the allied army. Notwithstanding the evidence of our senses upon this occasion, the inhabitants of Great Britain were overpowered by the rhapsody contained in the Ministerial Journals, on every mention of Lord Wellington, by their self-important reasonings upon military subjects, and by their positive affirmation that he had not commenced a retreat. The treasury of England, at this particular juncture, "appeared to be the magazine of news, where invention framed the fable of the day, and credulity stood ready to receive it."
It would be superfluous to enumerate the different towns, villages, and mountains, that were occupied by the allies, or the rivers that were passed between the frontier of Portugal and the neighbourhood of Coimbra, which Stands almost in view of I the Atlantic ocean. During this state of anxiety and expectation, the Park and Tower guns, and the Gazette, proclaimed the victory of Busaco. The reports of that repulse of the French, which have hitherto reached this country, contain such scanty information, that the whole transaction, as a military transaction, except the repulse, appears enigmatical. We know that the British and Portuguese troops were formed in line on the ridge of Busaco: that the French army approached the valley, which lay contiguous to the position of the allies: that two detachments climbed the rocks and commenced their attack upon two points: that the assailants were repulsed with considerable loss: and that marshal Massena did not renew his attempts, but immediately made a movement, which crossed the front of the allies, and eventually turned their left flank. From the position of Busaco we likewise learned lord Wellington descended

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with some degree of precipitation, with the intention of destroying or carrying away the stores deposited at Coimbra. The possession of that place was, however, of short duration, the allied army soon passed to the left bank of the Mondego, and the French obtained some supplies which could not be removed or burned by the allies. I will not make any delay in order to criticise the report made relative to the Portuguese militia, and the expectation formed of their frustrating the movement of the enemy through Sardao. The mention of such expectation excites more than a common share of surprise. Can the warmest admirer of irregular troops conceive that a body of Portuguese militia, after the events of the present campaign, could stop a French army, of considerable numbers, in full march to a great object? With the permission of the committee, I will now communicate to the superior wisdom of the gentlemen who now hear me, my conjecture on the causes which led to the attack at Busaco. It appears, by a document proceeding from the Regency of Portugal, that some Portuguese had espoused the French side of the question, and, by a price set upon the marquis of Alorno's head, at this period, that he was particularly obnoxious. In the American war, the British had partizans of the same description. When life, fortune, and character are at stake, the opinions of men are naturally heated, and their sentiments should be adopted with great caution. It occurs, therefore, to me, that the Gallo Portuguese persuaded the French. General to try, at all risks, an attack upon the British and Portuguese, when formed in one line. They impressed him with a belief, that the Portuguese battalions would not stand the French fire and attack, and that a chasm would be made in some part of the position of the allies; from which state of confusion, a general, skilful in military movements, would derive the greatest advantages and happiest consequences. Such an event might present to marshal Massena the golden opportunity of achieving a great victory, at a considerable distance from Lisbon, and the shipping of the British. The consideration of the scene of action, the mode of the attack, the manner of desisting from it, the movements made directly after the repulse, all confirm me in the belief of the suggestion I have deliberately entertained. The motionless state of lord Wellington's army, immediately subsequent to the defeat of the French columns, and
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the proclamation which marshal Beresford gave to the world about this period, both likewise minister to my conviction on this subject. The proclamation alluded to, cites all Portuguese officers, then absent from their battalions, immediately to join their colours, or plainly tells them they shall be stigmatized as deserters. This term of infamy, proves the enormity of the transgression, and the number of the delinquents. Such a circumstance of notoriety could not escape the knowledge of the enemy's spies, and the Portuguese adherents to the cause of France, and; united with the other causes which. I have enumerated, might have had some weight in alluring marshal Massena to make the experiment which I have described, as the attack of the allies upon the ridge at Busaco, cannot otherwise be accounted for, and appears, without such a design, entirely unnecessary. From the neighbourhood of Coimbra, the two armies moved with all possible celerity; the allies, to attain their strong position at Torres Vedras; and the French, to bring lord' Wellington to action, previous to his arrival within his fortified camp. It is reported, that marshal Massena disencumbered his army of its baggage and heavy cannon, in order to effect the design he had in contemplation. The allies, however, accomplished their plan, and the French derived no other satisfaction from their rapid march, than confining them to the line of the road, preventing them from exploring the country, and driving in the cattle and other valuable articles, with which that part of Portugal abounded. On the arrival of the allies at Torres Vedras, supplies, equipments, and British reinforcements, were found in aid of lord' Wellington, and the position of his army had been strengthened by superior skill, and unceasing labour. Marshal Massena soon discovered the strong situation, and' formidable preparation of his adversary, and did not long cherish the idea of making an impression upon them in the present condition of his troops, after the hardships they had suffered, and which were daily accumulating around them. From deserters, who flocked into the camp of the allies in great numbers, the wants and' distresses of the French, with respect to shoes, spirits, equipments, and even of ammunition, were strongly rumoured and almost correctly ascertained. The periodical rains which had begun to fall, soon-obliged marshal Massena to send a constiderable

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corps, under general Loison, to look out for subsistence and cantonments in the neighbourhood of Santarem and the river Zezere. Lord Wellington, in a dispatch, dated on the 30th of October, mentions the departure of general Loison's detachment, and his supposed arrival on the banks of that river, at a point, about forty miles distant from the French position before Torres Vedras. After marshal Massena had faced the allies without choosing to make any attempt upon their lines for nearly the space of one month, in which situation his army had suffered under severe privation, had been exposed to great inclemency of climate, and had sustained diminution by desertion, he withdrew at night-fall with great silence, in order to possess the cantonments prepared under the superintendance of general Loison. As the pursuit made by lord Wellington was not productive of any considerable advantage, it will be necessary to survey the condition and situation of the two armies at the time they respectively took up their positions in the vicinity of Cartaxo and Santarem. At this period, the first opportunity was afforded to the contending parties to relax from the severity of military duties, which, with little intermission, had prevailed in both camps during a long and arduous struggle. Before I state the relative condition of the two armies, and the result of the past operations, I will again make an appeal to the candour of the committee. If I have made any observations, with too much severity, on the shortness of the sieges of Ciudad Rodrigo and Almeida—on the precipitate retreat of lord Wellington upon the magazine of Coimbra—on the superior advantages of the allies after their arrival at Torres Vedras—and the completion of marshal Massena's retreat to Santarem—I must defend myself by saying, that the information received upon those subjects is as yet incomplete, and unsatisfactory to the military reader. The documents, to enable us to judge with fairness and impartiality, have not yet been presented to the House of Commons, and therefore the hour of approbation or condemnation is not yet arrived. Lord Wellington's explanations may be perfectly satisfactory both to professional critics and a generous nation. The military parts of the question are not yet before the tribunal of the public; but what must Great Britain think of the system which has been acted upon for the last
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three years by the ministers before us That system, if it had any plan, must have embraced the entire defence of the peninsula in the first instance. At the commencement of the present campaign, it must have had for its object the protection of the kingdom of Portugal.—It now upholds Lisbon, and at some future day, a large proportion of the navy of England may be collected and employed to protect and receive the surviving combatant" of the British army. The numbers and' position of the British, the Portuguese, and the Spanish troops at Cartaxo and Chamusca, enabled the commander in chief to cover and extend his lines at Torres Vedras, and to carry on the works near Almeida, for the defence of the port of Lisbon. Within the confines of his power it is now incumbent upon me to describe the extent of the population he has to provide for, and the means for carrying so necessary a duty into execution. The military portion of the three armies, will require at least 90,000 rations each day. The population of the intermediate towns and' villages, as well as Lisbon, must necessarily amount to 200,000 mouths, nearly-destitute of food: and the other inhabitants of Portugal, who had preceded the march of the allies, or joined them on their route, will perhapsexceed another 100,000. The provisions, therefore, to be issued daily, without taking into account the marines and seamen on shore, or afloat in the-Tagus, will form a gross amount of nearly 400,000 rations. The stores, either of a public or private nature, in Lisbon, cannot have been left, after so continued a warfare, in an abundant state. The desolation which prevails in war, must long ago have exhausted every article of life between Torres Yedras and the capital. The supplies, to sustain the efforts of the soldiers, and the existence of the inhabitants, must almost entirely depend upon water-carriage from foreign countries. America, as long as it suits her commercial advantages, and does not contravene her politics, may bring her flour; the coasts of Africa can yet afford fresh meat; and Ireland and England will yield and transport salted pork and beef, as well as hay, port wine, and many other necessary articles, to the shores of the Tagus. For' the whole of which, the treasury of Eng land must provide the means of payment; and for the most considerable part of these supplies, bullion, or bills of exchange, at a great loss of money, must be furnished,

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The sums paid likewise to the Transport-office, for the general service of the army, cannot be omitted, as that expense will not be found unimportant, it having contributed more than any other to the termination of the American war On the total loss of the British army, since the commencement of the continental war, by the sword, sickness, climate, and casualties, it is out of my power to form an accurate calculation. By returns only of the men sent to, and returned from Portugal, can the exact loss be precisely ascertained. But I think I may hazard a conjecture, that Great Britain, up to this time, will have sustained a diminution of her disposable force to the amount of more than 50,000 men. Another circumstance, which I have not hitherto mentioned, cannot be passed over: When the Bank made a communication to government, late in the last year, of the difficulties which would occur in sending more bullion out of England, it was suggested that specie to a great amount might be procured at Cadiz, on its arrival from Spanish America; but the distractions which prevail beyond the Atlantic, preclude the hope of much money being obtained from that quarter. On marshal Massena's arrival at Santarem, the condition of his army became greatly ameliorated. The convents, churches, and buildings of that place, afforded both shelter and convenience to many battalions that had hitherto been in a houseless state. The favourable situation of the local, it being protected by the Tagus, the swamps, and the mountains, gave a great relief to the severity of the duty which before had necessarily been imposed upon the French soldiers. The cantonments which had been provided between the river Zezere, Torres Novas, Goligao, Thomar, Lryria, and the contiguous villages, received the whole of the troops, and at the same time covered the most fertile as well as the best cultivated parts of Portugal. The ground, therefore, on which the French army now stood, gave comparative abundance, to what it had experienced either on the outset or during the continuance of the campaign. The herds and flocks were found upon the land; the mills were placed in a state of activity; and the late harvest and vintage had hitherto received in those quarters little or no diminution. It appears, by different channels of intelligence, that occasional patroles are made by the French, for various military purposes, to the frontier
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of Spain, across the river Mondego, and to Lamego, on the banks of the Douro; which have been sometimes interrupted by the peasantry and the militia of the country. Notwithstanding any interruption from this, or any other cause, Portugal has been obliged to supply the great proportion of the subsistence required by marshal Massena, and must continue to furnish all his demands, until the seasons allow the junction of reinforcements, and the consequent commencement of active operations. If we now survey, with candour and truth, the result of the operations since the commencement of the campaign, we must admit that the enemy has gained possession of two important fortresses, with their artillery, garrisons, and stores; that he has advanced over rivers, mountains, and an extensive country; and that he now occupies a position which keeps the allied army in check, and at the same time enables him to feed his troops, build boats and pontoons, and concert his future designs. At this period of apparent repose in Portugal, it may not be improper to call the attention of the committee to a retrospect of the transactions which had occurred in Spain. The desultory warfare which had been attempted both in the south and north, by British officers, and with British resources, had not been crowned with success. The condition as well as character of Spain had undergone a considerable alteration, since the commencement of the struggle, for the dearest rights and privileges of humanity. The defeat and captivity of general Dupont, an officer of reputed celebrity, the glorious and patriotic defences of Saragossa and Gerona, had no parallel in the late events upon the peninsula. The surrender of Ciudad Rodrigo, and the fall of Tortosa, with the abundant garrison and stores which it contained, bore no resemblance to the chivalrous and magnanimous efforts displayed in the first effervescence of the resistance to Buonaparte. An epitome of the state of Spain, during the last nine months, is not an unimportant feature in the argument I am now offering to the committee. The map of the peninsula shews the Pyrenees, the frontier of Portugal, and the French position at Santarem, In their progress from France, as Buonaparté has no water carriage, his troops must perform considerable marches; they must traverse Spain, in all directions, with stores and ammunition; and great and small detachments must necessarily have

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seven or eight hundred miles to pass over, in order to advance the main operations before Torres Vedras. What, therefore, must we think of the patriotism of eleven millions of people, in permitting the hostile bands of their oppressor to penetrate through the heart of their country to overwhelm their allies, when such natural obstacles as mountains, rivers, and defiles, are in their occupation and possession? Especially when we recollect that three British armies, and weapons and clothing of all descriptions for 300,000 men, have been transported from Britain for the defence and use of the inhabitants Yet we have proofs, so degrading to patriotism, weekly and daily exhibited to our contemplation, in the junction of all the different columns which reinforce Massena's army. Of the numbers and the arrival of the reinforcements from France, his Majesty's ministers must have more accurate accounts than the public have in their possession. The private communications from lord Wellington must contain more intelligence upon that point, than the mutilated Gazette-letters given to the world. We have heard of Drouet, Gardanne, Erlon, and other general officers, bringing up columns and divisions, and of the progress of marshal Bessieres through the northern provinces of Spain; but any thing like a clear amount of force is, in no account, specified with any thing like official regularity. The people of England may fairly infer, from the silence of his Majesty's ministers, and the known ambition of the tyrant of Europe, that the reinforcements arrived in Portugal, or expected by the French in that quarter, will be commensurate to the important object committed by Buonaparte to the arrangement, vigilance, and charge, of marshal Massena. The preparations made by his majesty's ministers for reinforcing lord Wellington's army in Portugal, embraced a wide and distant extent; and, if we give any consideration or reference to the foreign services and colonies of Great Britain, consisted of a greater supply than her population can long continue to support. From Sicily, Gibraltar, Cadiz, Nova Scotia, and the mother country, reinforcements for the peninsula have been selected. It has been reported that a detachment of some magnitude has been sent from Sicily. The future security of that island is thereby, I apprehend, placed in a state of hazard, as I cannot discover any depot of soldiers from which that possession can be
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supplied, when the French and Neapolitans re-commence their operations. The continental papers point out the preparations for future attacks in that quarter; and the return of the British general at this juncture, who has acquired professional glory in defence of the Sicilian court and country, rather impresses me with an opinion that he has not contemplated the measure alluded to, with perfect satisfaction. The state of the garrison of Gibraltar, and the reputed importance of that fortress, did not permit a great diminution for the warfare upon the peninsula. A detachment was, however, selected under the command of lord Blayney. But from Cadiz the draft has been so great, that the besieging army has been left at liberty to move almost entirely to the river Guadiana, to co-operate in the manœuvres and operations of marshal Massena. Through Merida, stores of every description for the service of the French army in Portugal, have been conveyed under the direction of marshal Mortier. And the Spanish army on the banks of the Guadiana, in the town of Olivenza, has received a blow from marshal Soult, who is reported to have marched his troops from the lines before Cadiz. From Nova Scotia and Halifax, and other British dependencies in that quarter of the world, all the troops have been brought which might have contributed to influence the decisions of the American congress, in the diplomatic controversies now subsisting with the United States. What is the condition of Ireland? Is not our sister kingdom stripped to nakedness, and, by the late circular letter of the government, goaded to despair? I forbear to ask for returns of the regular force in that island, which would equally prove the insecurity of that country, and the imbecility of his majesty's ministers. I believe it has been said, since the commencement of this session, that the numbers of men are as great as they ever were for the protection of that island. But doubting, as I do, the validity of that assertion, of what is the force for the defence of Ireland now composed? I entertain a great respect both for the volunteers and militia of that country. I have often seen and admired them. But I pass over summarily this question, by giving an opinion to the committee, after the experience arising from a considerable command in that island, during the present and the last war, that Ireland ought not to be left without 25,000 regulars, during the

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continuance of the vital struggle between Great Britain and Buonaparte. If, upon due consideration, I imbibed that opinion nearly six years ago, the changes made in the north of Europe, since that period, rather augment than diminish my conviction with respect to the force necessary for the security of that important quarter of the empire. Within the precincts of this island, every thing has been gleaned of a military description, to advance the Quixotism of ministers upon the continent. From the infantry of the line almost every battalion has been selected that was fit for service. Of the cavalry, you have not sent the last draft, at least you have not embarked the eleventh regiment, because I suppose representations have arrived of the unfitness of the local, in the neighbourhood of Lisbon, for the operations of light dragoons, and of the present straightened situation of the cavalry already in that country, on account of forage. But from the guards, which have two brigades at this instant serving in Portugal and Cadiz, you have been compelled, by imperious necessity, to make a miserable selection in point of numbers. The three regiments produced, according to the information of the public prints, a reinforcement for the army in Portugal of 100 non-commissioned officers and privates. All the brigades, regiments, battalions, corps, and even companies which could be collected, have been assembled, and sent to the peninsula. The great majority of them have long been acting upon the continent, and the last division of the British reinforcements has, ere now, arrived on the shores of the Tagus. Laying out of the question the hazard incurred in all the quarters from whence troops have been drawn, what have you achieved, or what can you accomplish? From the frontiers of Spain, the allied armies of England and Portugal have fallen back to the neighbourhood of Lisbon, and with the pressure of an expense which will soon prove intolerable, and, to defray which, you must make an increase of your tax upon income, you have collected all the distressed inhabitants of Portugal to ask for daily bread at the hands of the British general; whilst our common enemy, pleased with the measures of your insanity, in prosecuting a continental war, is congregating at his leisure a mighty force, and can add to its immensity and mightiness in the comparative proportion of ten combatants to one, He is not entangled
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by suffering inhabitants—by the cries of humanity—or by the importunities of famishing thousands: he is not restricted in his operations, by any respect for laws, human or divine: he does not call in vain for reinforcements; nor has he drained to the dregs the military population of Europe. Massena and his master are now bringing to a close the downfall of British resources, and, with fell and malignant joy, are already contemplating a mortal blow against the unprotected vilals of our empire and constitution. In this advanced age of the world, and in the present state of society, few occurrences, or even difficulties, can present themselves, in aid of which we may not derive advantage from history. You had the power of investigating the conduct of our ancestors. Hume says, "The English never entered upon foreign wars, although much too much addicted to that unwise course of proceeding, except when a young king of genius, to lead the armies, presented himself to the nation; when distraction prevailed amongst their enemies; and great allies were ready to cooperate in their designs." The condition of Europe, and the fallen state of Austria, might have exhibited to his majesty's ministers a salutary lesson with respect to the peninsula. If ancient history is worthy of your consideration, look at the fate of Carthage—a commercial against a military nation! If that government bad not destined the flower of its army for the invasion of Italy, the overthrow and destruction in Africa might have been retarded, or ultimately averted. But it is in vain to cite instances from history to you, if you are not admonished by your own errors. You ought to have remembered the first ill-planned expedition from Salamanca, committed to sir John Moore. You ought to have remembered the enterprise directed against Madrid, under the auspices of lord Wellington. Both these awful lessons are written in the blood of your best soldiers and yet you intemperately urge on your course of folly and rashness, and lay open the last disposable army of England to dangers of that extent and alarm, as such a precious stake ought not to be liable to, except upon our own shores, and in defence of British liberty and independence. I have now done: I may have urged some topics with too much vehemence, but I have been actuated solely by patriotic views of the points at issue, and, in such a career,

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"The laws of council bid my tougue be bold."
I am sensible, likewise, I have omitted many things, and that I have not done justice to the great question I have endeavoured to bring under the serious consideration of the inhabitants of the united kingdom. Yet I cannot sit down without apologizing to the committee for the encroachment I have already made upon its time. I move no resolution—but leave this statement to the good sense of parliament and the nation, as every human being, from the throne to the cottage, is interested and involved in the ruinous consequences of your continental warfare.
Lord Castlereagh,adverting to the speech of the hon. general (Tarleton), said that it was certainly competent for any member upon the army estimates, to pursue such topics of military discussion as he thought fit, but as the observations with which he (lord Castlereagh) was desirous of troubling the committee, grew out of the details which the secretary at war had that night opened in his speech, and as the honourable general had himself stated, that a more regular occasion would hereafter occur for reviewing the affairs of the peninsula, and the events of the last campaign, he hoped it would not be considered that it either arose from disrespect to the honourable general's arguments, or from acquiescence in his sentiments, if he postponed, till that occasion should arise, to enter upon a field of discussion too interesting in its nature to be lightly passed over, and too extensive to be mixed with the detailed considerations of the army, more immediately the object of that night's debate.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he should not feel it necessary to trouble the committee at any length upon the financial part of the estimates—the outline of the intended services had been explained with great clearness by the noble lord (Palmerstone), and the votes proposed seemed to be regulated with all due attention to economy, consistent with the efficiency of the army upon its present high scale, in point of numbers.
The only estimate to which he was particularly desirous of alluding, was that which went to reduce the annual training of the local militia from 21 to 11-days.
The share to be had in creating this force, the interest he personally felt in its well-being, and the conviction impressed on his mind, that the permanent security of the empire rested on its improvemen
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and conservation, made him very reluctantly acquiesce in any retrenchment which might have a tendency to impair the discipline, and consequently the efficiency of this great system of national defence; but whilst he acknowledged his repugnance to the proposed change in a military point of view, he was ready to admit that there were grave considerations which operated the other way, arising from a due attention to public expence, and the general convenience of the men serving. In this state of things, as a friend of the measure, he thought it best to submit to the change, as an experiment. The local militia bad hitherto found in the country nothing but friends. He thought it would be prudent in its advocates not to attempt to strain a string which so happily had been wound up to its present pitch. If we had been obliged to relax in the number of training days, which originally appeared to him necessary, he had the consolation to observe the institution flourish in a degree far beyond his hopes, from the universal zeal and spirit with which the nation had carried it into execution. All distinctions of party had been lost in the common effort; to that patriotic spirit he was willing to trust for preserving and improving this force, even under the proposed modifications, satisfied that there was but one common feeling in parliament, and throughout the country, that the efficiency of this institution must be upheld, and that so long as it was effectually sustained, the security of the British empire was placed beyond the reach of danger.
Lord Castlereaghthen proceeded to notice the concluding part of the secretary at war's speech, which related to the recruiting of the army. It was that branch of the subject on which he had come down, desirous of calling for that information which the noble lord had so fully imparted to the House. To those conversant with army details, it must have been obvious, without reference to returns, that carrying on operations abroad on the scale we now did, the waste of the army, even from the common casualties incident to troops in the field, must very considerably exceed the resources of ordinary recruiting. In looking to what it might be necessary to do, he was ready to acquiesce in the principle laid down by the noble lord, that adverting to the magnitude of the force which the country now happily possessed, the object to be aimed at was rather to keep

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up, than augment the present numbers of the army.
It having fallen to his lot officially to propose to parliament all the onerous measures which had taken place since the year 1805, for levying men, it was gratifying to him to find, that these efforts had achieved the great object to which they were progressively directed; that the zeal and perseverance of the nation, in cheerfully submitting to these burthens, was rewarded by the powerful army which they now possessed, unexampled before in any period of our history, and which left to parliament the easier task of hereafter upholding what by past labours had already-been created. In illustration of which lord C. referred to the effective strength of the army, as stated by the noble lord, viz. regulars 211,000, militia 81,000; total rank and file, regulars and militia, 295,000, exclusive of 24,000 artillery. Comparing this with the state of the land forces in 1805, viz. regulars 155,000, militia 90,000, artillery 11,000, the committee will see what has been the result of the measures adopted, namely, an increase, after covering the annual waste, of not less than 56,000 regulars, and 10,000 artillery.
Such being the state of the army, and the annual casualties being estimated by the noble lord at 23,000 men, (which exceeded, by about 7,000 men, the average of former periods) it remained to be considered how this waste was to be covered—taking the produce of ordinary recruiting at eleven thousand men, and the foreign recruiting at from 2 to 3,000, there remained a deficiency of 10,000 men to be annually provided. The measure of procuring these men by an annual draft from the militia, as suggested by the noble lord, had his entire approbation. It was extending to the British militia a principle which had long been acted upon in Ireland with the greatest advantage, and, as far as he could judge as an officer of militia, without any material prejudice either to the discipline or efficiency of the regiments which had been subject to the operation of the draft. The details of the increase would be matter of discussion when the noble lord introduced his Bill; he would only now throw out two points for his lordship's previous consideration:—The first was, the great discouragement which the present regulation, with respect to the provisions for militia-men's wives and families, opposed to volunteering into the
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line. He was aware that there was considerable difficulty and some delicacy in applying a remedy to this evil; but he wished it to be considered, as men entered into the line upon a variety of terms, differing in their nature and degree of encouragement, whether the allowance now enjoyed by the wife and family of a militiaman might not be continued to them, at the public expence, relieving of course the counties from the charge, in the case of the husband agreeing to transfer his services to the line, and whether this would not operate as the best species of bounty. Without this encouragement he was afraid the measure might not prove productive, to the full extent, with it, he was confident it would; and if this indulgence, as an extraordinary effort for securing a supply of men, was confined to the men now actually serving in the militia, no inconvenience could arise to the ordinary recruiting, which might otherwise happen, if it were allowed to operate as a circuitous mode of enlisting into the line.
The second point to which he wished to direct the attention of ministers was, the system which he had introduced in the Bill of 1809, of endeavouring to protect, as far as possible, the counties from the heavy inconvenience of a ballot, by enlisting men for the regular militia at a fixed bounty, inferior to that of the line, and that bounty, where the vacancy arose from transfers to the line, falling as a charge upon the public, and not upon the county, provided the county succeeded within a certain time in raising the men.! Lord Castlereagh wished to see this principle persevered in; he thought it an equitable one; he understood in many counties, where due exertions had been used, it had proved successful in exonerating the counties; and he was impressed with the wisdom as well as importance of connecting with the proposed measure every regulation that could tend to mitigate its pressure. He was aware, from the present numbers of the militia, as compared with the intended establishment of 72,000 men for the united kingdom, that a demand upon the counties was not likely for some time to occur, but the interval he thought ought to be employed in their levying, without expence or inconvenience to the counties, the men which were to protect them, at the end of the second year, from the inconveniences of a ballot, for the successful accomplishment of which useful purpose, a new facility would be found in the

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permanent staff of the local militia, which might be employed in aid of recruiting parties from the militia regiments in raising men in the respective counties.
Having stated his views with respect to the means best calculated to keep up the army, lord Castlereagh proceeded to call the attention of the committee to an improvement in the military system of the empire, which he had always deemed of the highest importance, of which he never had for a moment lost sight, and which he had only been induced, when in government, to delay pressing upon the consideration of parliament, from the persuasion that its success might have been risked, bad it been prematurely brought forward, entangled with the many other arduous military measures, which had in latter years occupied the attention of the legislature. When he spoke of the military system of the empire, which he trusted at last had assumed a permanent shape, he did not refer to any particular mode of levying men for military service; much political contest had taken place on this subject, which in its nature did not appear to him capable of being reduced to any immutable principle, but must vary with the occasion, the state of the country at the time, the difficulty or facility of procuring men, and; be number required; but what he considered as more immediately constituting our military system, and on which the repeated judgment of parliament had been pronounced, was—1st, That we should possess a large regular army adequate to all the various extensive demands of this great empire abroad, whose best interests, in time of war, even when viewed on defensive principles, was found to consist in the active annoyance of the enemy:—2dly, That we should possess a still more numerous force of local militia, assembled occasionally for purposes of training, but calculated from its numbers at once to protect the country from even the menace of in vasion: and 3d ly,—A considerable force of regular militia, ready to be called forth at the first commencement of hostilities, (an advantage which he was persuaded no other description of Force coula possess) and competent, from their being constantly under arms in time of war, to occupy the garrisons and advanced positions of the empire in the absence of the regular army, and to afford that defensive cover, under which the local militia, should an invasion be attempted, would have to assemble.
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In looking to this system as a whole, and in contemplating the adequacy of each branch at the present moment to its respective functions, it was impossible not at once to be struck with the imperfection attaching to the latter branch of the public force, namely, the regular militia, whose sphere of service is not co-extensive with the general exigencies of the empire, but is broken, and localized, by those national distinctions which happily, in other respects, have ceased with the union. The inconveniences of this defective organization, perhaps, have been the more slow in impressing themselves on our minds, from the laudable alacrity with which the militia of both countries have been ready at all moments of exigency to fly to each others's assistance; but independent of the time lost in giving legal effect to such voluntary offers of service, and the serious objections that attach in principle to troops having to deliberate at any time upon the duties they are to per-form; there are many cases that may arise, and must arise where the power of making a distribution of the militia force, different from what the law at present permits, may be of the highest importance to the empire, and yet the necessity for it, not of that obvious and striking nature, which, like the exigency of rebellion or invasion, at once calls for the tender of the services required, It is obvious how much the power of stationing a corps of British militia in Ireland might facilitate, at this moment, the reinforcement of the British army in Portugal: and if a period should hereafter arrive, when, instead of the disposable force of the empire being employed, as at present, in a quarter where it in fact covers Ireland from attack, it should be. engaged in operations on the side of Holland, or the shores of the Baltic; how materially might not the defence of Ireland depend on the power of making such a distribution, considering the means the enemy generally possess of assembling a force, and menacing Ireland from the western ports of the continent.
The principle of a common militia for the empire, however obvious impolicy, must rest for its accomplishment on the growing sense of its importance. When the militia system was extended to Scotland in the year 1797, it was not at first thought prudent to hazard the measure, by extending the services of the Scottish militia to England, and it was not till a subsequent year that the conditions of the

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service of the Scottish regiment were assimilated to those of the English militia. It is not to be wondered at, therefore, if the extension of the principle to Ireland has not more immediately followed the union; but the time (lord C. said) he was convinced was arrived, at least so he was led to be of opinion, from the communications he had had with individuals of both services, when this great work might be accomplished, under proper regulations, with the general concurrence, both of the British and Irish militia.
When he spoke of regulations, he did it from a conviction, that to render the measure acceptable it was necessary that the gentlemen serving in the militia should be clearly apprised beforehand what the nature and extent of the inconvenience was to which, from the consolidation of the militias, they might be exposed. With this view, and from a persuasion that in any other supposible case than that of actual rebellion or invasion, it could only be deemed expedient to employ a proportion of each militia in the other country; lord Castlereagh said, he was desirous of recommending, that the proportion should be fixed, not to be exceeded except in the event of rebellion or invasion; that the tour of duty to serve in the other island, should he taken by the regiments in rotation, and that no regiment should remain on such service beyond a time to be limited. It had occurred to him to propose, that the number liable to be so employed at one time, should not exceed one-fourth of the British, and one-third of the Irish militia, which would furnish a transferable force: of about 10,000 men of the former, and 8,000 of the latter; and that the period of the service of each regiment, out of its own island, should not exceed, at the utmost, two years. He was aware, that a protracted absence from the vicinity of their own counties, might prove inconvenient both to the concerns of the regiment and of the officers; but when it was considered that the rotation of service in Ireland would, to the English militia, come round only once in eight years, supposing the whole period to be one of uninterrupted war, and that leaves of absence are, at all times, liberally granted to militia officers, whose private affairs require this indulgence, be could not but feel sanguine, that the gentlemen interested would, for so great an object, cheerfully submit to this additional sacrifice.
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It was not merely to the military advantages of the measure that he looked with an anxious solicitude for its accomplishment. He was of opinion, that its moral effects upon the empire would operate not less beneficially; he could assure the committee that his desire to see it accomplished, did not spring from the smallest distrust of the Irish militia soldier in his own country. It was not the language of management, but of sincerity, when he declared, that his confidence in them was as unbounded as in any other portion of the militia army. He had seen them tried severely in the worst of times—such times as he trusted would never again recur, and had always found them do their duty with exemplary zeal and fidelity. It was from a wish to cultivate intercourse, and to abolish every trace of separation between the component parts of the same empire, that he pressed the measure—he was desirous that the gentlemen of England, serving in the militia, should, by observation, inform themselves of the actual state of Ireland, unfortunately too little known, and too often misrepresented—that they should witness on the spot the generous and endearing qualities which distinguished the national character of Ireland, and which the pestilent labours of the disaffected had not been able to extinguish. He was also anxious that the Irish militia should have an opportunity of mixing with their fellow-subjects on this side of the channel; for, proud as he felt of the essential qualities of his countrymen, he was persuaded they would derive advantage from passing in the service of their country, into Great Britain, and there witnessing the happy state of society in which a people lived, who had long subjected themselves to industrious and moral habits, who looked up to the magistrate as their best protector, and to the law, which had made them what they are, for every future blessing—such an intercourse could not fail to improve both, to unite them in sentiments of common interest, and to cement in the feelings of the people, the union which had for ever bound their fates together. He was himself old enough to remember when the different provinces in Ireland were so estranged from each other in habits, that the inhabitants of the north and of the south felt it a less separation from their homes to cross the Atlantic, than to transfer their residence and industry to the other extremity of the island. Time had done

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something to remove this, but the institution of the militia had done more—the constant intercourse, the intermarriages, the knowledge derived of the entire island by the interchange of the regiments between county and county, since the year 1793, had nearly obliterated these prejudices, and made the inhabitants of Ireland one people—might not similar effects be hoped for in the empire from similar causes, and to procure such happy results, what efforts ought we not to make? To render them effectual nothing is wanting but a further exertion, under the sanction of the legislature, of that patriotic devotion which the militia officers have never failed to display, whenever they saw and were convinced that the public service demanded it. In order to lay the foundation, it would be sufficient to provide, that all men hereafter entering into the British and Irish militia, shall be attested to serve in the united kingdom—to empower his majesty to receive voluntary offers from the respective regiments, of an extension of service, with a power in the crown to invite such offers, under such rules and regulations as to his majesty should seem fit. Such was the general outline of the measure, which, with the concurrence of his colleagues, had he remained in government, and with the good-will of the gentlemen of the militia, he should have been desirous of proposing to parliament. He had felt it his duty a an individual, deeply impressed with its importance, humbly to submit his ideas upon it to the committee, but without the presumption of supposing, that unaided by the intercourse of office, a plan of this nature could be properly digested. It was not his purpose to offer any preposition to parliament on the subject—such a measure could only originate with propriety, or with any prospect of success, in his majesty's council—he had done what became him in committing it to their consideration, they alone could judge of the prudence of bringing it forward, and select the time and mode of carrying it into effect:—he felt persuaded the measure itself rested upon principles which would conciliate to it friends, and invite support; he trusted it would, upon due reflection, recommend itself to the militia of both countries, and that they would aid the king's government in rendering to the empire this most important service.
Mr. Herbert, of Kerry, warmly supported the proposition for an interchange
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of the services of the militia forces of the two countries, as likely to be productive of the mort important advantages to both.
Mr. Stuartthought the inconvenience of transporting the militia from England to Ireland could not be greater, in most instances, than in sending them from England to Scotland.
Mr. Whitbreadconceived it to be a most unjust and unequal burthen imposed on the counties of England, that they should thus, from year to year, be obliged to find men to supply the deficiences in the army. There were some details in the statement, too, to which he objected, though he should find other opportunities of stating his objections. Three different members of the medical board, he observed, were to be allowed to retire on salaries, who had differed greatly from each other. It was impossible they could all be right. Some of them must have been deficient in their duty, yet all were to be rewarded for their merits; and what was still more strange, the merit of each was to be equally remunerated, without its being shewn in what respect they were entitled to remuneration. As to the reciprocity of service between the English and Irish militia, he should be glad to see the grand obstacle to this measure removed. This could only be done by adopting a step, the proposing of which had occasioned the overthrow of lord Ho-wick's administration; but he was happy to perceive that the idea was now so much hailed by the other side of the House The Irish militia could never consent to venture over into this country, while they would be subject to such pains and penalties, which did not attach to them in Ireland.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, they had on a former occasion volunteered their services to Jersey and Guernsey.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that when the interchange of the militias of the two countries took place, he would call the attention of the House to the state in which the Catholic soldiers would be placed. The noble lord said, the laws against them were a dead letter, and the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had cheered him. He had however believed that the right hon. gent, thought them of the highest importance, as the safeguard of our religion and church. But, at any rate, if a dead letter, they were most odious to the sight, and ought to be removed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhoped,

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if the hon. gent, viewed the plan as others had done, that he would not increase existing difficulties by introducing, unnecessarily, a subject on which particular feelings existed, and which might lead to useless altercations. The inconveniences anticipated were not practically felt by those Catholic soldiers already in this country; and were they to suppose them more likely to be felt by the militia who might hereafter arrive? Some had objected at first to drafting into the regulars from the militia, and objected on the ground that it would prove ruinous to the discipline of the militia; but this, he trusted, had not been found the case. As this was not the time for going into the subject of the late campaign, he did not wish to say any thing on that head. Though he was anxious it should not be understood, that ministers gave up that campaign, or that they surrendered lord Wellington to those who were disposed to condemn his conduct, it was, however, remarkable, that the hon. general was now as forward in predicting disasters, as he was last session in saying the English could not make a stand at all against the enemy. As the prophecy he then made had not been realized, the hon. general had nothing new to say on the subject at present, but could only repeat his old prediction. The hon. general had spoken of the opportunities lord Wellington had had, and had failed to improve. He had spoken as if he might have crushed the enemy at Ciudad Rodrigo, and at Almeida. Why, if that were the case, what became of his censure of the plan of that campaign, and of those who had planned it, seeing, if that statement were correct, though they engaged with an enemy who could bring ten to one against them, they had nevertheless furnished lord Wellington with sufficient means to crush that enemy. This general, however, who had been so severely censured for not attacking the. enemy at Ciudad Rodrigo, and afterwards been as severely censured for suffering the enemy to attack him at Busaco. The attempt of marshal Massena was to be looked upon merely as an experiment, they had been told. He wished it, however, to be remembered, that it was an experiment which Massena did not think fit to repeat. If they looked back to what had been done, it would at least be found that lord Wellington had disappointed the enemy, and that he had done more than be had been expected to do by many in
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this country, though he had not annihilated the French army. The contest, it was true, could not be carried on without a great expence to this country, but it ought to be remembered that the cause was great, and that the cause was our own; and great as the expenditure unquestionably was, it was nothing to what it must be if we were obliged to engage with the enemy on our own shores. It was our interest to prevent that as long as we were able, and that reflection, he trusted, would reconcile the people, not only to what they had already borne, but what it might yet be necessary to call upon them to bear.
General Tarletonobserved, that the right hon. gent. had spoken as if he had attacked the conduct of lord Wellington. He reminded the right hon. gent. that he had disclaimed any such intention; but speaking of the events of the campaign, it was as impossible to avoid mentioning the commander in chief, as it would be to perform the tragedy of Hamlet, omitting the character of prince Hamlet, or to represent Cato, leaving out the most important character, Cato himfelf.
Mr. Canningrose and said, Sir, had not I conceived it to be generally felt and understood on all sides of the House, that this was not the fit opportunity for going into the discussion of the character and merits of the late campaign, I should have offered myself to the attention of the House at a much earlier hour. But, although what I still conceive to be the prevalent understanding on this subject, will operate to prevent me from going into any detail upon it, at the present moment, yet after what has fallen from the hon. general opposite (general Tarleton) in his last speech respecting the state of the war in the peninsula, I should consider it an abandonment of my duty, and should reproach myself for having acted an unworthy part, if I were to omit to state shortly the opinions which I entertain upon that most interesting and important question. The share which I personally had in originating those measures which have committed this country in the peninsula against France, renders it necessary for me, as well in vindication of my own conduct, as in justice to the principles by which the present ministers have proved themselves to be still actuated in the maintenance of the contest, to express my unaltered approbation of the system which they have continued to pursue. When

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ever the arduous contest shall have been decided, whether it terminate adversely or triumphantly for the allied arms, I cannot but consider myself as deeply implicated in the issue, and I the rather take this occasion of putting in my claim to answer to this House and to my country for the part I have had in this system of measures, while the result is yet unascertained: because if that result shall be, as I trust it will be, honourable and successful, I should appear after the event, to be claiming a participation of the credit to be derived from success, without having fairly exposed myself to a share of the blame which may be attached to failure.
As to the general policy of maintaining the contest in the peninsula, it is, in my opinion, not only true courage but true wisdom in Great Britain to avail herself of all means and opportunities of encountering the enemy, which may defer to the last the occasion, if that occasion is to arrrive, at which, we shall have to fight the battle upon our own shores. In this view, I must contend that the operations of the campaign, even if considered as merely respecting the war in the peninsula have been eminently advantageous. The enemy has at least been kept in check; and we have not only been gaining time, which, in a war of such a character as this, is no small gain of itself, time for the working of chance in our favour, but our military means and the military discipline and efficiency of our allies have been greatly augmented. The period of our final and separate struggle is deferred: and the probabilities of success in it, are multiplied in our favour. This at least is the fruit of the campaign. In drawing his picture of the operations, which have taken place from the commencement of the peninsula war to the present moment, the hon. general thinks he has said every thing, when he has declared, that those operations commenced near Madrid and have terminated in the environs of Lisbon—that lord Wellington set out with a determination to defend Spain—ther undertook to protect Portugal—and is now contented with merely covering Lisbon Why, Sir, even admitting this representation of the hon. general to be correct (which, however, I utterly deny, though for the sake of the argument I am, willing to admit it) I still contend, upon the general principle which I have already laid down, that, whilst there was a possibility of defending Spain in Spain itself, it was
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the duty, the policy, the essential interest of Great Britain to make every practicable effort for that purpose. that when untoward circumstances rendered it inexpedient to prosecute the contest in that country, Great Britain was bound to maintain it in Portugal—and, if even the vicissitudes of war should have reduced us to the mere possession of the city of Lisbon itself and the strong positions in its environs, even there Great Britain is as much bound in honour as she is impelled by a just sense of her own interest, to make her stand. Never should we give up our hold of the peninsula, while we are able to continue the contest not with prospect of success alone, but without danger of absolute destruction to our army.
But I must not by any means be understood, Sir, as giving into or adopting any part of the views taken by the hon. general of the operations of the last campaign. On the contrary I maintain, that the hon. general's views are as clearly at variance with the facts as those facts are happily at variance with what that hon. general and his friends thought proper arbitrarily to anticipate last year, of the probable success of our operations in the peninsula. If indeed we were to draw a comparison between the present state of affairs, and such a one as, without due consideration and comparison of means and probabilities, we might conceive to be desirable, we must admit that much is wanting to bring the result up to the standard of our wishes: we must admit that much remains to be done—but we are not therefore to give up the contest as hopeless, or to abandon the cause to despair. But we have a right to resort to another standard of comparison; we have to compare the present state of the peninsular war with the insolent vaunts of the enemy and with the gloomy predictions of many amongst ourselves. We have aright, in forming our estimate of the prospect before us, to compare the present state of things with what it was when the whole of the peninsula was in the power of the enemy—when all its strong fortresses were occupied by French troops, when not a breath of resistance was any where to be heard—when the eagles of France were planted, not only over the walk of Madrid but upon the ramparts of Lisbon. This is the comparison, Sir, which we are entitled to make; and from this I am authorised to draw inferences far different from those of the hon. general. As I never was party to those dismal anticipations,

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which we have too often been condemned to hear in this House; as I knew the talents and skill of the British general—as I was convinced of the valour and discipline of the British army—and as I confidently anticipated the best effects from the instruction and example of English officers on the physical and moral qualities of a brave nation, I have all along looked to the contest in Portugal with hope—a hope qualified undoubtedly by a mixture of anxiety but wholly unalloyed by any thing like despair. Nor has the result disappointed my expectations. If lord Wellington has arrested, in its career of victory, that mighty military power, before whose overwhelming masses the greatest armies of the continent have crumbled into dust; if he has seized the up-lilted bolt of vengeance, which was ready-to be hurled against the devoted toners of Lisbon, has diverted it from its destination, and conducted it harmless into the earth: if, protecting the kingdom committed to his defence against the destroyers of the independance of nations, he has stood as it were between the dead and the living, and stayed that deadly plague which had filled every other part of Europe with havock and desolation; if he has done this, and no more than this, I am not, I cannot,' be disappointed at the result of the campaign. To have saved Portugal, and in saving Portugal to have procured for Spain another year of hope, another season for exertion, and therewith to have given to Europe another chance of recovering from the effects of this furious tempest which so long has raged with unabating fury, and has laid prostrate every thing great and venerable amongst the nations of the world—this is no slight success, [hear! hear! hear!]—this is no mean glory—it is a result worthy all the expence, and effort, and anxiety, that it has cost us—and, if it does not satisfy our desires it may well make us ashamed of our fears.—But if, because lord Wellington has done no more than this, it be thought that he has neglected to take advantage of opportunities to follow up his successes, and to destroy the whole force of the enemy, there is perhaps no commander, on whose behalf an appeal could be more confidently made against such a charge, to the whole tenor of his professional career, and to the prominent features of his military character. If he did not think it prudent to follow up his success against a repulsed but still a superior
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and unbroken enemy, if he did not think himself warranted to put the advantage, which he had gained, to the hazard of an unequal conflict, and to risk by a culpable temerity the fruits of what he had gloriously achieved, we may very fairly presume that in taking a course, not the most congenial to his nature, he has adapted his measures to the circumstances of the campaign and to the peculiar situation in which he found himself placed. Let him not now be blamed for prudence after having been so often rebuked for impetuosity.
But disagreeing, Sir, as I do with the hon. general in his views upon the subject of the campaign, there is no one point upon which I differ more widely from him than as to the probable effect and ultimate advantage of the system of measures by which the army of England is now, for the first time for many years, arrayed, against the troops of France in a continental campaign, and contending for mastery under the eyes of Europe. The advantage to our own troops from practice in warfare—and from having had frequent opportunities of establishing beyond the possibility of doubt, what we always knew, but what the enemy constantly flattered themselves they could disprove by denying—the physical and moral superiority of the British soldier;—the impression necessarily produced upon the French armies, by the palpable demonstration thus presented to the world of the groundlessness of their own vain-glorious pretensions to the character of invincible;—these surely are effects which justify the principle of the policy from which they are derived, and which not only contribute to the immediate glory but tend to the ultimate safety of this country.
The hon. general looks to an invasion—to a struggle for our own existence on our own shores. Surely the British soldier, who has fought in the peninsula, will not be a less adequate defender of his country, and the Frenchman who has met him there in battle, will not be a more forward and confident invader. The altered tone of the enemy, in speaking of the events and prospects of the campaign, is to me the most decisive evidence of the merits and services of our army; and might, I should think, satisfy the hon. general (Tarleton) himself, that if we are one day or other to have to encounter the enemy on British ground, the transactions in Portugal may at least have contributed to defer

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that event, so much to be deprecated, to a later period than has hitherto usually been assigned for it. He might be satisfied, I really think, that, if such a day is likely ever to arrive, it would not have been so good policy to lock up the whole of our military population at. home in trembling expectation of the moment, when it was to be called into action by the arrival of the enemy on our coast, as to fit ourselves for that vital struggle, by a system of active and enterprising hostility; enuring our soldiers to the duties and hardships of war—interposing obstacles to the progress of the enemy while yet at a distance—and combining with the sacred duty of affording assistance to other nations, the most effectual preparations for our own ultimate defence.
If we were to have the choice of any one spot in the whole world, where this system could be most advantageously carried into effect, the present theatre of the war is that which we might most prudently have chosen. In the peninsula, for the first time since the French Revolution, France is exhausted by the expences of the war instead of being enriched by its spoils: we have the best authority for this fact; we have Buonaparte's own explicit admission of it. In the peninsula France acts at the end, as it were, of a long lever through a line of communications, extended, hazardous, and constantly interrupted; and requiring scarcely less than another army dispersed along that line to keep up the means of feeding and recruiting the army which is employed in the operations of the war. To us the sea is open—and the distance and difficulty of communication no more than the length and risk of the voyage, which is trifling in the extreme.
These are the physical and military advantages which would induceme to choose as the scene of operations between Great Britain and France, the present theatre of war, as by far the most advantageous for England. But it is impossible to put moral considerations out of the question; to forget the ties which bind us to the common cause of nations; and which connect the defence of their rights and independence with the separate security of our own. We cannot but feel to how great a degree that, which we are doing for others, adds to our confidence as to what we shall be able to do for ourselves.
I have said, that the tone of the enemy has been changed. Are not our own feelings
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at least equally altered? Let us recollect that period, at the commencement of the war, when we were in daily expectation of some attempt at invasion; we were all indeed confident, that if the enemy came to attack us on our own shores, we should make a most glorious resistance, and ultimately repel any force which he should be able to bring against us. But the expressions of this confidence we did not scruple to utter, as if they conveyed something of no ordinary spirit and vigour. The wisest and the bravest among us were not ashamed to speak of resistance to invasion as splendid victory. Who is there among us now, that is contented with such language? or who feels, that he does justice to the military character of his country, when he merely professes to believe, that an invasion of this country would terminate in the disgrace and discomfiture of the invaders? Is this the language which we now use? Or are these the topics with which we are now conversant? Are not our language, our sentiments, and our feelings, really and genuinely of a higher sort?
"What! shall they seek the lion in his den,
"And brave him there?
"Oh let it not be said."
And whence then is this great and decisive change in public opinion? whence but from the war in the peninsula? and is not this a revolution of the highest importance? a vain and vapouring confidence springing out of no principle, founded on no practice, and accompanied by no proof and test of its soundness, is indeed far from being a splendid, a safe, or a commendable quality, but a confidence, which has grown up gradually in proportion to our efforts and our trials—which is founded not in our feelings but in our experience—not singly in our own estimation of ourselves, but in a comparison of ourselves with our enemy—which augurs what we may do in our own defence from what we have achieved in the defence of our allies—this confidence is one which may be blamelessly felt, and safely relied on; it is a solid principle of strength, as well as a just ground of exultation; and to have purchased this confidence in ourselves is an object for the attainment of which no sacrifice which has been made, and no burden which may be incurred, can justly be thought more than sufficient. Much, however, as I applaud, and as I partake of this confidence, I am not so blindly sanguine

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as to look forward to certain success and glory, without taking into my consideration the possibility of a reverse; but when I contemplate that side of the picture, I do so with this consolation, that if ever there was a moment or a situation in which failure (disgrace I will not say, for that is not possible to such an army and such a commander), but in which the failure of the object for which we contend would be comparatively less injurious to us, and defeat more calamitous to the enemy, it is in my opinion the present moment, and the actual situation of the campaign in Portugal. And this too, from moral no less, or even more, than from military considerations. The ruler of France has now the eyes of all Europe fixed upon him. He has now no distant diversion to distract his councils, or draw off the attention of his subjects and of mankind from the one grand object to which he stands pledged and bound—the establishment of his usurped dominion in the peninsula. If he fail in this, his defeat must be most signal and decisive. It admits of no palliation; it is not to be retrieved or compensated by lesser triumphs, nor to be obliterated from memory by the achievement of new successes in other quarters of the world. To be foiled in this great object, and to be foiled by Great Britain, would be to him the most disgraceful, and consequently the most dangerous defeat that he has ever experienced—breaking the charm of his ascendancy, and shaking the foundation of his power. To us it would be the most glorious triumph that the events of this tremendous war have ever yet brought within our reach; the seal of our fidelity to our allies—the consummation of our military character—and the pledge of our national safety.
Such is the character and importance of the contest which is now at issue. What that issue may be, I do not pretend to anticipate. It is in the hands of Providence. But standing at this moment upon that awful eminence, which divides the past from the future; the past chequered with variety of fortune, the future overshadowed with a darkness impervious to human foresight, I am anxious to declare unequivocally, while the issue is yet undecided, that the course and the system by which the military fortunes of the country have been brought to this crisis, have my most cordial and unqualified approbation, (Hear! hear!)
General Tarlctonreturned the right horn gent. thanks for the eloquence which he had displayed on this occasion, though he could by no means concur in the views he had taken upon the subject of the campaign in Portugal. From the zeal manifested by the right hon. gent. to aid the cause of the peninsula, he supposed that right hon. gent. would be much better pleased if the whole disposable force, and all the generals of the British army, were to be employed in the peninsula.
Mr. Canningwished to correct the hon. general. He did not desire that all our generals should be abroad. So long as lord Wellington was employed in the peninsula he could be well contented that some gallant generals should remain at home, to criticise the operations of the campaign, and to protect us from invasion.
The estimates were then agreed to, the House resumed, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow. Adjourned.

INFORMATIONS EX OFFICIO FOR. LIBEL.
The order of the day being read,
Lord Hollandrose and said, be had little apprehension, when he first gave notice of his motion, that it would meet with any opposition. It was indeed a motion so consonant to parliamentary usage, so obviously enjoined by the duties of the legislature, and so natural a consequence of measures recently adopted by the House, that he had hoped it might have met with the entire concurrence of their lordships. In this, however, he was mistaken—he had received an intimation (for the politeness of which he acknowledged himself obliged) from a quarter where he knew that opposition in that House was seldom fruitless, and it had therefore become necessary for him to trouble their lordships more at length than he could have wished, to explain the grounds on which this motion rested, and at the same time to state as explicitly the ulterior objects to which, if acceded to, he should call their attention.—The motion he had to submit was merely for information, it was merely for a list of such
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proceedings as had been instituted ex officio against state libels, by the Attorney General, for the last ten years. It would pledge their lordships to no further opinion; it might be granted with due regard to parliamentary usage, without implying the suspicion of abuse, and without entailing on the House the necessity of any subsequent proceeding. In the other House (if it was regular to allude to such things) it had, from time immemorial, been the usage to institute, at the commencement of every session, a Committee of Justice, an usage which indicates that the eye of parliament should be invariably fixed on the administration of justice, that parliamentary inquiry into the nature or number of any prosecutions in the courts below conveyed no censure on those courts, but proved that vigilance and policy, with regard to them, was the constant and uniform duty of parliament, which could not be relaxed without danger, but which could be exercised without implying distrust or suspicion. The House, indeed, had recently sanctioned the principle, for without imputing blame to anyone, they had, at the motion of his noble friend (lord Grenville) whose absence he regretted, ordered in this very session, (or at least in last session) a return of the number of convictions and other proceedings on felonies under the revenue laws, in aid of that judicious and benevolent inquiry, in which, at the instance of his noble friend, a committee of their lordships was at present employed. In addition to this general view of their duties, and exclusive of those primâ facie grounds on which he (lord Holland) rested some suspicion of abuse, their lordships, without agreeing with him in that inference, would be justified in requiring further information on a subject on which they had so recently legislated, for the purpose of ascertaining the uses to which the new law had been applied, and the consequences it had produced; and this argument was yet more forcible, when he recollected the circumstances under which the act he had alluded to was passed, in a thin House, at the lag-end of a session, and without any one person to explain the nature of its provisions, or assign the reasons on which they were founded. In such manner, however, was an act altering the antient law of the land, giving to the silent and spontaneous, act of one man, all the powers and consequences of a solemn proceeding of a grand jury, introduced and passed through parliament

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in the summer of 1808. When he recollected that to justify that extraordinary innovation, to lay grounds for that unexpected attack on the liberty of the subject, to prove the necessity of arming the Attorney General with the power of holding to bail, and in some cases, of imprisoning whomever he thought, guilty of a libel; no papers were moved for, no inquiry instituted, no documents produced, nay, no statement whatever made, further than was to be found in the meagre, un satisfactory, and unsubstantiated preamble of the Bill; when he recollected this, he felt that his expectation of his motion being acceded to by the supporters of that Bill, was rather a proof of his own simplicity, than a fair consequence to be drawn from the former conduct of those noble persons. He complimented them on their consistency in refusing all information respecting the consequence of a law, for the enactment of which they had assigned no reasons, and for the allegations in which they had adduced no evidence; but surely it was natural for their lordships, who, if they had reasons for adopting the law, must have adopted it for the purpose of preventing offences and "curing the ends of public justice, to inquire whether those ends had been accomplished; to learn how often and with what effect the provisions of the new law had been resorted to; to ascertain whether libels had increased or diminished since these new powers had been granted; and, above all, to discover whether the convictions obtained bore a greater proportion to the informations laid, than they did before the latter were armed with such unusual, and, hitherto, unconstitutional consequences.—On such grounds, the House seemed to him called upon to adopt the motion which he should that night make; but he did not mean to disguise from their lordships, that he had further views in making it, that he thought other circumstances required inquiry, and that the information which his motion, if acceded to, would produce, would lead to the necessity of other proceedings. He would say little of his own motives in coming forward on the occasion, but he must trouble the House with one or two observations in disclaiming the intentions, which, he feared, those most adverse to his views, and those most eager in their condemnation of all prosecutions for libel, might concur in imputing to him. It was not his intention to meddle with the law of
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libel; as he should afterwards explain, he did not feel his knowledge of the laws sufficient to justify him in attempting to do all which, according to his imperfect and perhaps theoretical view of the subject, he should think desirable to be done. Indeed, limited as was the object of his motion, and even the measures he meant to build on it, it might well be asked how and why he, who had neither learning nor professional habits to give his opinion authority, should venture to descend into a field which was so much better adapted for the display of those qualities, for which so many noble and learned lords in the House Were eminently distinguished. He would speak fairly on this subject, he would own that if, on a review of our history, he had found that all or even a large portion of the laws which had improved our constitution, which had vindicated the lights of the people, and which had purified the administration of justice, had originated from persons of that profession, or from individuals dignified with the honours of their profession, he should have felt abashed in coming forward on such subjects; but the records of our legislature proved, that our ancestors, though not in the profession of the law, had not hesitated to correct the abuses which had crept into it, and with few exceptions, that the most eminent magistrates had seldom been forward in supporting, much less suggesting, those measures, which, when adopted, had become the theme of universal praise, and the most perfect models of our legislative wisdom. Without going back to ship-money, dispensing power, and the opinion of the judges thereupon, he would confine himself strictly to such as were in parimateriâ with those which affected the liberty of the press. He had not, for instance, heard that, in the controversy in which Milton drew his formidable pen, the lawyers had particularly distinguished themselves against the practice of licensing books previous to publication. He did not find when the law by which that practice prevailed, first expired in Charles 2d's time, that it was the suggestion of the judges which occasioned its expiration. He could not learn what were the efforts made against it by the luminaries of the law, when it was revived under James the 2d. He thought he recollected that, at the final expiration of that pernicious and degrading custom in William 3d's time, the press did not receive the warmest support, nay, that if

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did not escape some degree of opposition from those to whom the execution of the laws was intrusted. Certain he was that in latter times, the great and important victory obtained over corrupt usage and bad law, by an act, which he reverenced, not less for its enactments than for its author, to which his learned friend near him had so eminently contributed, and which was commonly known by a name which was sufficient to revive in his mind the strongest emotions of veneration and gratitude; certain he was, that that great act, which restored juries to their rights, and rescued the press from servitude and oppression, was carried through that House, not at the instigation, but in direct defiance of those who at that time presided in our courts of justice, and who had recorded on their lordships' Journals, their opinion against a measure which, in its effects, as in its principles, was acknowledged to be among the most beneficial laws that, in modern times, had received the sanction of the legislature. Indeed, if he were disposed to dwell on so invidious a theme, he thought that, from the very nature of their stations, he could deduce reasons why such laws scarcely ever originated with the bench, and might be considered as fortunate if they did not receive active opposition from that quarter. Conscious (as he was sure the present judges, and, above all, his noble and learned friend, who with so much advantage to the country presided at the King's-bench, must necessarily be) of the rectitude of their own intentions, they must naturally be less aware than others of the evils of discretionary power; fully determined not to abuse it, they were less likely to see the objection of the liability to abuse, which applies to all discretionary power whatever, and for this reason were little disposed to suggest, and seldom could be won to support, restraints on the exercise of authority. But such should not be the feelings of a legislature, such was not the duty of parliament; and there the constitution had wisely, prudently, and, perhaps, for this very reason, placed the right of legislation, of regulation, of correction, instead of blindly surrendering the enactment of laws to those whose province it was to execute them. He did not, therefore, think that a member of that House was disqualified from offering an amendment in the laws, because he had pot been trained in the practice of them; but he felt his own personal inability too
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much to venture any extensive plan, and, indeed, he did not think that the occasion required it. He was not, therefore, about to propose any innovation in the principle of the law of libel; that law was not, in his view, perfect and faultless; but yet it might, and had been, administered without practical injustice; and though in his utopia, the punishment of libel might form a very short chapter indeed, he did not think himself warranted on this, or any other occasion, in making the remedy larger and more extensive than the evil. At the same time he must observe, that, in discussing any subject connected with the liberty of the press and the law of libel, it was necessary to keep in view those great principles which distinguished the crime of libel from most other offences. In one respect it was like treason; for treason and libel (he meant throughout public state libels, for private slander was a different, and in his mind a much more heinous offence), were both crimes directly against the government, in which the public prosecutor, and even the magistracy itself, were more or less the parties aggrieved. The wise institution of juries, especially since the Libel Act, in some measure provided for this difficulty; and in the cases of treason the merciful and enlightened law of this country had invented many fences against the hand of power, for the person accused. Yet, after all, the difficulty was more or less inherent in the nature of the thing; it must and it ever would be the bias of men entrusted with power, to confound successful but lawful opposition with treasonable resistance, and a powerful exposure of the follies or wickedness of ministers and men in power, with seditious libels and calumny. The ingenuity of man could not devise a system of law where in cases of this nature, he would not say the prejudice, but the inclination of those who were to execute the laws, was not generally to convict men accused of having transgressed them; and in libel it should further be observed, that contrary to all other crimes, that which approached the confines of guilt, was not only innocent, but meritorious and useful. Government could never feel an interest in proving a robbery on the roan who had not robbed, but it might feel an interest in convicting a political writer of a libel which he had never written. The innocent might be deterred from indifferent actions by a fear of being suspected to commit a robbery or

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other offence; but this, though vexatious to individuals, would be no extensive injury to the community: but if writers, able to expose the imbecility of our councils, and to point out to the people and to parliament the cause of any public misfortune, were deterred by the apprehension of incurring the penalty of libelling, they would be deterred from a positive good—the community deprived of a real advantage—and the interests of the people deeply and perhaps irreparably injured. It was, after all, public discussion, open investigation of public affairs, and in one word, the liberty of the press which formed the most salutary check on political men, on governments, and even on legislatures themselves. These were in his judgment principles never to be lost sight of, either in regulating or in executing the laws regarding that liberty; at least these were the principles which he had imbibed at the earliest period, and which he believed and trusted he should never abandon to the latest hour of his life. He had learnt them from the first authorities, and many of those who had supported them in this country drew from them consequences with respect to Ex Officio Informations much stronger than any which he should urge to their lordships. Indecd he knew that many had doubted the legality of Ex Officio Informations altogether. In such an abstruse point he was not competent to judge; he was almost ashamed of giving his opinion, for none of their lordships could think it worth hearing. He would however observe, that although they seemed to flow from an anomalous, perhaps a suspicious source, though they might come in the shape of civil actions from the Court of Exchequer, where he believed the first trace of them was to be found, yet that was at such a remote period, (Ed. 3.) and there was not only such a stream of precedent in their favour, but the legislature had so often by inference admitted, had so recently and in such good times regulated them, that he did not understand what constituted legality, if they were not legal, especially as, on the solemn argument upon their legality, the Court was unanimous in favour of them. He knew that on that occasion an obiter dictum of Lord Hale was quoted from memory by a counsel, but Lord Holt said, that Lord Hale blamed the abuse, and did not question the legality of informations; and even if it were otherwise, the obiter dictum of a man great as Lord Hale, (and a greater
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never adorned a court of justice in any country) was not suffcient to counteract the stream of uninterrupted precedent, the then admission, and the subsequent sanction, of parliament itself. He did therefore think they were legal, though he felt it presumptuous in him to say so much when he knew that such men as Glynn and Dunning, as well as others, had more recently questioned the principles and precedents on which they rested. The authority of these eminent men was yet more decidedly against the expediency and necessity of such a power being vested in the Attorney General. Many who now heard him might recollect, that on a motion of a near relation of a noble lord opposite, a minority of 78 voted in the other House for the suppression of that power; and that in that minority, besides other great names, were the distinguished lawyers, Serjeant Glynn, Mr. Wedderburn, and Mr. Dunning. The two last had risen to the highest judicial situations, and the last especially, (though he had not the good fortune of having known him) was by all who had lived with him acknowledged to be a man in legal acquirements equal to any that had preceded or followed him; in acuteness, subtlety, and argument unrivalled; and not less distinguished for his pure and ardent love of liberty than for his deep knowledge of the constitution of his country. The hon. and learned lord on the woolsack, had recently avowed that he was his tutor and preceptor in the law, and thought it no mean subject of boast that he was such a man's pupil and follower. This great man had thrown down the gauntlet, and offered to maintain in parliament or in courts of justice, that Ex Officio Informations were productive of nothing but mischief, were to all good purposes null and unnecessary, and were"; only calculated for oppression and abuse. Perhaps he was not far from agreeing with that opinion, but he did not mean to enforce it, or to avail himself of Mr. Dunning's great authority to urge the suppression of that power altogether. But he quoted him, and he quoted him with confidence, to protect him from the imputation of rashness in supposing that an enormous increase of a practice so liable to abuse called for inquiry. He sheltered himself under his authority in expressing an opinion far short of that eminent lawyer's on the subject, but he would acknowledge that if Ex Officio Informations continued

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to increase in number and to be applied to such cases as they had been of late, the power had better be suppressed altogether at the risk of government losing the advantages, if any, which its exercise might occasionally afford, than be preserved at the much greater risk of sanctioning such abuse, and producing such hardships and grievances as must result to the subject from it.
He came now more immediately to the subject of his motion, and it would hardly be necessary to explain the nature of that power which it was his object to restrain and regulate. He understood that there were three modes of proceeding against libel, by civil action, by indictment, and by information. The proceeding by civil action stood on other principles; it was for reparation of a private damage or injury, not for a punishment of offence. His motion had nothing to do with it, nor did it regard the mode of proceeding by indictment, which was the regular, the safe, the constitutional and true way, generally, of proceeding against any public offence whatever—but of informations there were, he understood, two sorts, both leading to a criminal trial before a petty jury, without the intervention of a grand jury, and the solemnities which attended that previous proceeding. Both modes of information, in the Crown Office and by the Attorney General, had once been to practical purposes of a similar nature and effect, but by a law of William and Mary (a law the existence of which he trusted would not again be denied, as it had been in 1808) the informations of the Crown Office were in effect confined to private prosecutors, and were only granted by leave of the court, which was in the habit of requiring many circumstances of aggravation before it complied with such an application. The same act required arecognizance (now much too small) from the prosecutor, but as the crown could not enter into recognizances, and the high office of Attorney General was considered as less liable to abuse, and more exposed to responsibility and punishment if abused, his Informations Ex Officio were left. The grounds of that bill had been the numerous and vexatious prosecutions, and the expences to which parties had been put without being brought to trial, and other grievances of a similar nature. Such were the allegations in the preamble, and similar, he contended, would be found the grounds far some legislative interference on the
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subject of Ex Officio Informations now. That they were liable to abuse, no man could deny. Those who disapproved them and those who thought them necessary, must concur in thinking them anomalous, at least, in their nature, and peculiarly liable to abuse. Sir Matthew Hale, whose opinion of their illegality he had presumed to question, did certainly, not in an obiter dictum, not on the report of doubtful witnesses, but in his excellent and deliberate work of the Pleas of the Crown, distinctly imply his distrust of the uses to which they might be perverted; did in the most marked manner record his sense of the danger to which a frequent recurrence of them would be exposed. He says, on criminal informations, that two things are observable; 1st—That they are not applicable to cases where life or limb are affected. 2dly, That in all criminal prosecutions the most safe and regular method, and the most consonant to Magna Charta and the statutes of Edward 3d, is by the presentment or indictment of twelve sworn men. When this great lawyer says, that it is observable that informations will not lie for crimes affecting life or limb, he does not mean simply to inform his reader of that fact, for in the very page of the work he had told him that they would not; but he says it is observable, meaning that an inference is to be drawn from it; and what was that inference? Why unquestionably that the law itself felt and admitted, that such proceeding was less favourable to the subject than the mode of indictment; that it mercifully would not expose the limbs and lives of the people to the risks of this more summary proceeding, though in cases leading to less fatal consequences it might allow it to be occasionally resorted to. Yet even in these it is further observable, says that learned and excellent judge, that the most safe, regular, and constitutional method of proceeding, is by indictment of twelve sworn men. He saw the anomaly, he perceived the danger, he warned the public ministers, in that memorable passage, of the consequences of too frequent a use of this formidable weapon, with which the mercy of our law would not even entrust its officers in contests where the existence of the subject was at stake. Oh, but (it might be said) lord Hale was averse to these proceedings, because in his time they had been much abused in a way that the law has since regulated and remedied; besides, it might possibly be added, on the

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authority of Roger North, Hale, though an excellent and upright man, was in ail his judgments swayed by a bias to popularity, by a laudable but perhaps overstrained attachment to the principles of liberty. Be it so, and let us hear what the apologists, what the admirers of this power of filing Ex Officio Informations say, even when they are urging its propriety and necessity, of its nature and character. He would quote Blackstone, an author to whom all Englishmen were indebted for the perspicuity with which he had explained the laws of his country, but who was never accused of any violent spirit of reform, and whose book, with all its merits both of style and matter, was certainly a laboured, though in a great measure a just panegyric on the whole system of British jurisprudence. Blackstone was so attached to these Informations Ex Officio, that he alledges them (he read the words) "to be necessary not only to the ease and safety but even to the very existence of the executive government." He then had no undue bias against them; he at least might be heard as a competent and impartial judge as to the manner in which this power was to be executed, as to the nature of the offence against which it ought to be exclusively employed. He wished the House to attend to the words, and to bear in mind that they were the words of the defender of the powers at the very moment that he was vindicating them from the charge of illegality and supporting the necessity of their existence. He says then, "the object of the King's own prosecutions filed Ex Officio by his own Attorney General are properly such enormous misdemeanors as peculiarly tend to disturb or endanger his government, or to molest him, or affront him in the discharge of his royal functions. For offences so high and dangerous, in the punishment or prevention of which a moment's delay would be fatal, the law has given to the Crown the power of an immediate prosecution." Here then was the admission of its supporter in aid of the argument drawn from the nature of so summary a proceeding, and from the authority of Lord Hale, that it was a power peculiarly liable to abuse; that if legal, if expedient, if useful, it was only so upon extraordinary and urgent occasions: that it was a weapon to be drawn only in moments of danger, but that could not be wielded on every sight occasion, without injury to the society. By this criterion, by judge
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Blackstone's own definition, let the late exercise of it be tried. Had it been a Goliath's sword which had never quitted the temple, but on great and critical occasions? Had it led to immediate punishments? His inquiries gave rise to a very different suspicion. He thought he could perceive in the frequency and nature of their exercise, that as informations had formerly been perverted from their lawful purposes to those first of extortion, and then of vexation, they had now been distorted to means of influence. If they were intended for the prosecution of offences in the punishment of which one moment's delay would be fatal, how and why did it happen that, between the filing of the information and the trial, not moments, not days, not terms, but months, and even years elapsed? How did it happen that after trial and conviction, weeks, months, and indefinite periods were suffered to elapse without bringing the criminals to judgment? Was not this a ground of suspicion? If this mode of proceeding had been resorted to, not for the punishment of offences, but for the prevention of lawful opposition in the periodical press what other symptoms of that abuse would appear, but a long period between accusation and trial, between conviction and punishment? The power was confided for the better prosecution of enormous misdemeanours; had it not been used for the purpose of terrifying writers into compromise, compliance, and servility? These were surmises indeed, but they were surmises founded on facts which he would broadly state to the House. He meant the fact of increased frequency of Ex Officio Informations. He had procured an account, and it appeared that for seven years inclusive the Ex Officio Informations filed had been 14; that within the last 3 years there had been 42. What! had enormous misdemeanours, had offences in the punishment of which a moment's delay would be fatal, increased in a ratio of 8 to 1 in the course of these last three years, and if not, was there not reason to suspect abuse, when the principle on which the power of filing such informations was so notoriously and evidently departed from? If he was not mistaken no less than 26 were neither brought to punishment nor even to trial? Why then, either Ex Officio Informations had been applied to cases which in Blackstone's opinion did not justify a resort to them, or twenty six enormous misdemeanours threatening the state with destruction, twenty six offences in

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the punishment of which one moment's delay might be ruin, had escaped unpunished and untried, and yet the crown was on the head of our lawful sovereign, their lordships and parliament were in full possession of their privileges, and the constitution and the country had escaped revolution and ruin, in spite of these successful and unpunished crimes, with which they were encompassed. It was preposterous to say that such occasions only had drawn forth the 42 Ex Officio Informations; it would be childish and blind to notorious facts to deny, that they had been used for the purpose of intimidation and of influence. He wished to avoid the mention of particular instances, but when he found that in some instances the subordinate agents, the printer, the publisher, the editor, were informed against, and the author allowed to escape; in others, all were proceeded against; in others the authors only; and when he compared the cases in which the opposite principles of proceeding had been adopted, his suspicions were strongly confirmed. The law undoubtedly enabled the crown to prosecute the writer, the publisher and vender of a libel, and though he thought that power was given it not exactly with the view, not exactly eo intuitu with which it had been often exercised, yet he knew that many thought otherwise. He had differed with many of his friends in private on this subject, and battled it with them, but he owned he was surprised to find that the ideal case, which they had frequently selected, to expose the danger of his system, of dropping all prosecution of the subordinate agents when the principal was discovered, had been really and in earnest selected by the Attorney General of this day to apply it. He then stated, that during lord Grenville's administration there bad been but one information filed Ex Officio by his learned friend sir Arthur Piggott, to whom he must on many accounts always feel the strongest private affection and gratitude, but who was entitled to the public thanks of the country for his uniform and upright conduct both in and out of office, and who was in his humble judgment one of the first ornaments of his profession, and without exception as pure, as honourable and as constitutional a character as in the course of his life be had ever been connected with. He was a man he could not mention but to praise, he was one of whose merits he could never say so much as from the bottom of his heart he thought they were intitled
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to. That constitutional lawyer had filed an information against the Morning Post for what appeared to him a libel of a nature to produce immediate mischief, perhaps mutiny itself, among our troops. It asserted that our troops were embarked in rotten transports, and it implied, at least so sir Arthur Piggott thought, that they were selected for the purpose because they were rotten and unsafe. If this were so, a worse libel there could not be, nor one which required more immediate prosecution. It happened, however, that before it came to trial the ministry was changed, and sir Vicary Gibbs, who succeeded his learned friend, entered very shortly afterwards a noli prosequi; and why did he so? because the author was given up. But he begged leave to observe, that though his name was surrendered, he was stated to be abroad, and no further proceeding was instituted. He (lord Holland) approved as much, perhaps, more than any man of this principle; he thought till this instance that he pushed it to the extreme, bat then it must be impartially applied; and when he found that in other instances, where the authors were known, the publishers, nay the printers, were selected by preference for prosecution and punishment, he could not help thinking some other motive, and not the principle so exclusively applied to the Morning Post, induced the Attorney General to adopt this conduct. If it was on the principle, it would have applied to all; if it was accident, it at least was singular that it fell on a newspaper so professedly devoted to ministers. He would ask in Latin words, which he recollected somewhere, though he knew not where, si justitœ causâ cur non in omnes? si misericordiœ cur in hunc? Was it or was it not the Protestant Letters which atoned in the Attorney General's eyes for the crime of exciting our army to mutiny, by false reports and base and unfounded calumnies on the government? When he perceived a vigilance, that in three years discovered near four times the number of heinous offences that his predecessors had detected in twice the time; when he looked at his rigour on one hand, and the solitary instance of his mercy on the other, it would not be charity, it would be blindness, not to suspect; it would not be candour, it would be hypocrisy, not to say that the Attorney General had exercised these powers for the purposes of influence, instead of confining them to the legitimate cases of necessity, for which

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alone they were entrusted to him. He wished the House to consider what was the effect of such Information, even where no sentence was passed, no verdict obtained, no trial instituted; the bare operation of an Attorney General so accusing a man, put him at once to an ex-pence of from 60 l. to 200 l. without the possibility of being indemnified. It was to all intents and purposes a fine of that sum, at the discretion of the Attorney General to inflict as often as he chose, on "very writer, proprietor, editor, or printer of a public newspaper.—Such a power might be right, might be necessary, but surely it was one, in the exercise of which the officer entrusted with it should be narrowly watched, according to every dictate of public prudence, and every maxim of our jealous constitution. He would not deny that other extraneous circumstances connected with the administration of justice, rendered this jealousy with respect to Ex Officio Informations more necessary in his mind, than at other periods.—He felt indeed that the power of imprisoning criminals in distant and different jails, was a power which resided in the courts of this kingdom, and which, it was proper on various considerations of policy, of safety, and in some cases of humanity too, should reside in the court which passed sentence upon them; he was far from accusing (God forbid he should) the present judges, of having intentionally abused that power, but he did humbly think, that in effect the imprisonment of individuals convicted of the same libel in distant and different jails had operated as a severe and as an unequal aggravation of punishment, and he could not but think that it was not (to use a law phrase again) eo intuitu that the judges were entrusted with it. Another point of a yet more delicate nature was Special Juries: on this much irritation, much suspicion, prevailed, he knew not whether it was founded, he was sure that, well or ill founded, it ought to be discussed and examined.—He, however, did not mean to say more of special juries than the law entitled him; for of special juries, he might observe, as lord Hale had observed of criminal informations, that they could not try cases in which life or limb were affected; and this was observable with regard to special juries, for the same reason that lord Hale said it was observable with respect to informations. The plain inference to be drawn from it was
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this, that special juries were less favourable to the defendant in criminal causes than common juries; and it is further worthy of remark, that till times com" paratively recent, (he believed Geo. 2d's) special juries could only be obtained by consent of both parties. Now all criminal informations were tried by special juries, and it would be trifling with their lord" ships not to add, that strong and deep impressions had gone abroad, that there were even more reasons than the law contemplated for thinking them, as at present composed, less favourable to the subject than that which is enjoined by the constitution of the country in cases where life or limb are concerned.—These reasons, and the conviction that the punishment of libel differed from the punishment of all other crimes in this particular, that far from checking or diminishing the evil produced by that individual offence, it extended and aggravated it by giving a wider circulation, by publishing, if he might say so, a cheaper edition of the formidable paper, he felt that more than common pains should be taken to prevent the prosecutions by Ex Officio Informations, from being more frequent than prudence would dictate, or the exigency of the times absolutely require. On these grounds he should on some future occasion propose the following regulations. 1st, A limitation of the time at which it should be lawful to file Informations for libel, after the first publication; for it was surely obvious, that while the time was unlimited, every periodical work might be for an indefinite period entirely dependent on an Attorney General: 2dly, He should propose to fix a period at which the Attorney General should, after filing an Information, be compelled to bring the accused to trial, to drop the prosecution, or to assign reasons and ask leave of the court for further time to collect his witnesses: 3dly, He should wish to limit the period at which the persons convicted for state libels, should be liable to be cal led up for judgment; for a verdict in the present state of the law, might be perverted from the general purposes of punishment and example, into the means of intimidation and influence.—He should also move in the course of the session, unless such a measure came recommended from the other House, the repeal of that part of the 48th of the King, which gave to the Attorney General the power of holding to bail on Ex Officio Informations for misdemeanors.—He was aware that there

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were two other remedies, one of which was founded on substantial justice, and the other enjoined by the principles of the constitution, which he owed some apology for not bringing forward. The first was that to which our ancestors in William and Mary's time resorted to on a similar occasion; namely, some provision to indemnify those who were accused, and either not brought to trial or acquitted, from the heavy and unjust losses they had sustained. But here he should be met with the principle that the crown paid no costs, and though injustice could never be right, he was not sufficiently acquainted with the practice of our laws to be able to estimate the consequences of introducing so new a principle into them, nor yet had he knowledge of details, or ingenuity enough to devise a method of indemnifying such persons without doing so. If at any future period persons of more authority and more conversant with the law should devise them, he should hail the auspicious moment, and give such humble support as he was able to a measure which professed to adapt the views of substantial justice, to the maxims and practices of English law in this particular. The second mode, which according to strict constitutional principles he ought to adopt, was a censure on the Attorney General.—But he would briefly state his reasons for not resorting to that mode of proceeding. Exclusive of his respect for the character of the individual, of whom though he knew nothing from personal acquaintance, he had always heard the highest character for learning, for abilities, and for a disposition amiable in private life, he did not wish to make it a personal or a party question. He knew that in that case, those who were attached to the learned gentleman by the ties of private affection, those who were connected with him in political sentiments, might feel themselves bound on this occasion to defend, and might afterwards think that their efforts in his defence pledged them to the support of the cause in which his interests were engaged.—His object was to avoid any such consequences. He had not taken up the question in a party view, though he did not mean to disapprove of party, which from his soul he believed necessary in our mixed constitution to preserve the rights of the people, to resist the encroachment of power, and to prevent the entire subversion of all authority but that of the crown.
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But questions regarding the administration of justice should not lightly be mixed with party or political struggles. The sentiments he had expressed that night were not newly or suddenly taken up, he had always held the same principles, he had sometimes in that House, he had sometimes elsewhere, endeavoured to promote them, and whether supporting government or opposing it, he trusted he never should abandon or forget them. His lordship then proceeded to obviate some general objections, which he apprehended might be urged against any restraint or regulation on prosecutions for libel. He maintained that complaints of the increased licentiousness of the press had been common to all times, that it was always in the mouth of men in power and public characters, and that he could not. fix on the period of our history when, if the testimony of cotemporaries was admitted, it would not be found that the licentiousness of the press had reached its summit. We should from this consideration listen to such suggestions with doubt; we might thus learn to calm and moderate our indignation at the productions of the press which offended us.—Viewed through the medium of a few years, libels at the time considered as atrocious often appeared innocent, and the punishment to which they had been exposed disproportionate to their guilt, and calculated to excite disgust at the laws rather than disapprobation of the libeller. Let us then ask ourselves, what will be the opinion of future limes of those papers at which we feel indignation, and check our resentment by appealing as it were to the calmer judgment of posterity, collected from the manner in which we contemplate the conduct of those who went before us. We should indeed find that our best classical authors, Swift, Addison himself, Pope, might have been punished, if all that had been considered as libel had been tried, convicted, and condemned. Would any writer now be permitted to speak of a living judge, as Pope had done in the line,
Hard words and hanging, if your judge be Page?
He did not mean by this to justify the abuse of the press, God forbid! But he did mean to deprecate all passion and irritation in the punishment; he did mean to recommend an uncommon degree of temper, forbearance, or, if they would have it so, connivance, in the execution of the laws against state libel, for it was

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his conscientious conviction, that the prosecution and punishment of all that the law could construe into libel, would have the effect of degrading the press, and especially the periodical press; of deterring men of character and talent from becoming authors, and of throwing that powerful engine exclusively into the hands of the servile sycophants of power, or of needy adventurers of desperate fortunes, who having nothing to lose could only raise themselves to importance by slander, calumny, and falsehood. He ridiculed the notion that before the French revolution those liberties might be allowed with advantage which would be pernicious now, under circumstances so different from those which accompanied that event, and at the distance of ten or fifteen years. It was like the character in a popular farce who could make fine speeches, do grand things, and conduct himself with wisdom, propriety, and justice, before he had the measles, but seemed to think that having had that disorder fully accounted for and excused all his subsequent folly and incapacity. Among ail the political crimes of our enemy, none in his opinion was more disgusting than his tyrannical restraint on the press. Englishmen might indeed, in a narrow view, feel some exultation, though not of a very philosophical nature, at the adoption of such measures by their enemy—for these shackles on liberty always proved restraints on the talents and exertions of the country in which they were imposed and endured; but if Buonaparté hated the liberty of the press in France, why, he would ask, should that which was his natural enemy elsewhere be branded as his friend in this country? Did the nature of things change from one side of the Channel or the other? Or was it to be supposed that even the grossest licentiousness of the press, licentiousness which would be hurtful to society, disgraceful to civilization, and cruel to individuals, would in this country, among a people so attached to their language and their habits, and justly inspired with such strong national pride, reconcile them to a foreign invader, make them prefer Frenchmen to Englishmen, and lead them to surrender their rights and their constitution to the tyranny of a foreign usurper. It was talking like children to hold such language and to express such preposterous apprehensions. Let us not load even wickedness itself, with imputations to which it is not in truth exposed. The
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abuse of the press, libel, slander, and calumny, might be and had been productive of great injury to mankind; but never had there been an example of its reconciling a great and powerful nation to its enemies, of its paving the way to foreign dominion and usurpation. The antient republics, in which the most disgusting licence of speech was permitted, might, in the judgment of many men, have constituted unhappy societies, the indulgence of satire and slander led to ingratitude, to persecution, to injustice; but of all nations, those very states which had most extravagantly indulged in such excesses, and had most bitterly suffered for so doing, were those which had made the grandest efforts in proportion to their natural resources against foreign invasion and encroachments. In the French revolution itself, whatever the horrors of it might be, and whatever share the disgusting and defamatory libels with which the press then teemed, might have had in producing them, it would be untrue and therefore unjust even to them, to say that they palsied the efforts of the country, or assisted the cause of the foreign invaders. They might perhaps have contributed to the horrible bloodshed which, either in massacres or in judicial murders, flowed throughout that country during that dreadful period. But at least they did not enable the noble lord opposite to march to Paris, they did not prepare the people for submission to the duke of Brunswick or the Austrians. It was idle therefore to call the licentiousness of the press the ally of our enemy, and it was safer to revert to the sober and constitutional principle which had guided the wisest nation of the world, and had been well imitated by our ancestors, namely, that in such pro-portion as the exigencies of the state increase, in such proportion as the defence of the country calls for greater sacrifices, in such proportion also should increase our disposition to enlarge the privileges, to; redress the wrongs, and even to regard with temper and indulgence the occasional excesses of liberty in the people. His lordship concluded by moving for, "An account of all Informations Ex Officio in cases of Libel, from the 1st of January 1801 to the 31st of December 1810, specifying when the same were filed by the Attorney-General, together with the Proceedings had thereupon and the dates, thereof."
Lord Ellenboroughhad expected that, in I bringing forward the motion, which had

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been just submitted to their lordships, the noble baron would have condescended to specify some instances of abuse, oppression or grievance, as the foundation for such a proceeding. He had listened with anxious and painful attention to the whole of the noble lord's speech, in which he could find but one instance adduced as a proof of the abuses alleged to have prevailed, and even that instance was not on the side of severity—it was a case wherein a noli prosequi was entered by the Attorney General in the progress of an information against the Morning Post. Was it then on account of such an exercise of discretion, at the side of lenity too, that their lordships were called upon to range through such a mass of papers as the motion comprehended? Was it on such ground as this, that the files of the court of King's Bench were to be rummaged and ransacked, that a mass of useless and unnecessary papers should be cast upon their lordships' table? The motion of the noble baron, in extending to the last ten years, included the period during which so humble an individual as himself had the honour of filling the situation of Attorney General. Whether the noble lord meant to refer to his conduct, he knew not; but as the noble lord was silent with respect to it, and made no allusion to it, he did not think it necessary to defend what had not been attacked; at the same time he must say, in reference to those learned gentlemen who had succeeded him in that office, that their discharge of their public duty, and their discretion in the discharge of it, ought not to be put to the question upon grounds lightly or captiously taken up. He did not see why persons in such stations ought to be made the objects of invidious investigation, upon grounds of hazardous conjecture. As for the information desired, what could the noble lord learn from the documents he called for, which he did not know already? If there were any matter of special interest to which he was anxious to refer, every facility in his (lord Ellenborough's) power should not be wanting to the noble lord, to enable him to come at the required fact; but he was afraid that this was not the sort of facility that was either wished for or expected. He had reason to know that the facility with which inquiry in certain cases had been made and information gained, was painful to the parties making it. During the whole time, that be (lord Ellenborough) had presided in
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the court of King's Bench, he knew that the greatest facility existed in getting at the files of these Ex Officio Informations; and there was not a document of which the noble lord, and any one else, might not soon be in possession. But it was not a search for information that the noble lord proposed to himself; it was not in order to be informed, that he had made the present motion.
The noble lord had talked in a high tone of an obiter dictum of lord Hale's. If lord Hale had ever made the observation, which he (lord Ellenborough) believed he never had, his judgment must have been as dormant as, in such case, he must have wished the law itself to have been. But he never could have expressed any such opinion. It was not to be credited that a man so perfect in his knowledge of the laws and the constitution as lord Hale was, could possibly have done so. The law of Informations Ex Officio not the law of the land! What was law if this was not? for it had been made law by the same authority that had made all the laws that held the government together. It was as much law as that which gave the noble lord the right of speaking in that House—it was as much law, as the law which put the crown of this realm on the brow of the sovereign. He would recommend there-lore to the noble lord to trace back the law of informations. He could recommend him a book upon that subject, and would refer him to the case to be found in page 119, of Shower's History of the Law of Informations. He would there find the law of informations to be as old as the common law. If the noble lord-questioned the expediency of the law, why not propose that it be repealed? That would be the direct and manly course. Nothing could be more mischievous, than by declamatory speeches in that public assembly to impress upon the public mind the false notion that Informations Ex Officio were not perfectly-legal. The noble lord may if he choose propose to amend the practice of filing Ex Officio Information; but that practice was conformable to law,—law undoubted, and recognised and indisputable, he should not venture to question its legality. (Here lord Holland intimated that he had never disputed its legality). True, the noble baron had not in words indeed questioned the legality of the practice, but the whole drift and spirit of his reasoning went directly to inforce the illegality of it. The

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authority of Mr. Dunning, unquestionably very high authority, and which had been so often cited by another noble lord, had been here mainly relied on against this Jaw. He was certainly good authority, but not, perhaps, at the side at which he had been quoted, as he had himself taken an active part in libel prosecutions, and often pocketed the fees under this very law—(A laugh.)
But it seemed that it had been made more grievous by recent enactments. He had, he would confess, expected something from the noble lord that night against the Indictment Bill; and he was not disappointed. When he recollected the opposition made by the noble baron, he did not conceive that the opposition would rest there; in this too he was not deceived; for the whole speech of the noble baron that night was but a continuation of his former argument—a 'nec dum finitus Orestes' It was scarcely necessary for him to inform their lordships, that the bill, to which he alluded as having been formerly opposed by the noble lord, was an act made within the last four years, giving the Attorney-General power to hold persons to bail, against whom Informations Ex Officio had been filed. On receiving notice of the noble lord's present motion, he was curious to know how often this bill had been acted on. He inspected the necessary documents accordingly. And now he would ask their lordships how often did they think this bill had been acted upon since its enactment? but once in the whole four years; there was but one solitary instance of its being acted upon—and he would tell their lordships in what case that was—the case of a man, one Gorman, who, being under prosecution for a libel, after an information had been filed against him, had the hardihood to publish it again. And yet this was the mighty abuse of that act; this, forsooth, was one of the ruinous stretches of power which threatened the government with subversion, and put the subjects of George the third on a par with those of Buonaparté! He knew nothing more to be deprecated in that House than violent and vague declamations, resting upon no grounds (hear! hear! from lord Holland.) He was aware to what he subjected himself by what had fallen from him. The noble lord might call all that he had said a mere tirade; but in all that: he had said, did he not bottom himself on facts. (Hear! hear! from lord Holland.) The cries of the noble lord could not convince
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him that he had not. He was used to tumults and alarms—they never yet could put him down. Were he to die the next instant, he never would yield for one moment to tumult. The noble lord, if not towards him (Lord E.), might at least in courtesy towards the House, have adopted a different tone of exclamation. He repeated that he knew nothing more mischievous in its tendency than inoculating the public mind with groundless apprehensions of imaginary evils. Where there has appeared to him any instances of going beyond the limits of a wise discretion, it had never passed unbranded by him. His abhorrence of the licentiousness of the press was founded upon his love of liberty, which burned as strong in his breast as in that of the noble lord. If there was one mode more efficacious than another to ruin the liberty of the country, it was by generating that groundless distrust in the great officers of justice, which such needless and vexatious jealousy was calculated to inspire.
Lord Hollandclaimed of their lordships' justice, their attention for one moment. He appealed to their recollection, both as to what had been said by him, and as to the manner in which it had been attempted to be answered. He would not say, merely, that the learned lord had not stated the facts, but that he had stated what was directly contrary to the facts; the learned lord had charged him with denying the legality of Ex Officio Informations. He had not only not denied their legality, but had avowed his conviction of their legality. When the learned lord complained of want of courtesy, he should himself have shewn more courtesy to the recollection of the House (here lord Ellen-borough motioned to rise.) The learned lord who had been so long in the habit of enforcing the laws elsewhere, ought to be, at least, so far skilled in the laws and orders of that House, as to know that no noble lord had a right to interrupt another while in the act of explanation. There were other points to which, in strict explanation, he could not now perhaps refer, though it did fall within the limits of general parliamentary explanation to advert to them. He had stated many other grounds, besides the solitary one commented on by the learned lord. Why was the learned lord wholly silent upon the increased numbers of informations which had been filed within a limited period? Was not this a ground, and had he not stated it?

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Had he not also stated the time which in many instances had been allowed to elapse between the filing of the information and the trial? Was his no ground? Had he not also mentioned the practice of hanging over the heads of the persons accused, informations which had been afterwards abandoned? The learned lord's speech, he repeated, was throughout a complete mis-statement and misapprehension of his facts and reasoning. He should reserve what else he had to say for his reply at the end of the debate.
Lord Ellenborough, in explanation, said, that while the noble lord was professing not to dispute the legality of information, he was, in fact, questioning it.
Earl Stanhope,in justice to his noble friend, could not help stating, that in point of fact he certainly did not question the legality of Informations Ex Officio. What he did question, he did not believe even the chief justice himself could contradict him in, and that was, that the mode of exercising the power of filing Informations Ex Officio might be such as to become illegal. What! when those informations, invented for the purposes of expedition, were suffered to hang protracted over the head of an individual, would any man say, that such an exercise of them did not become illegal? No man could say otherwise. Yet this was all his noble friend asserted; and the misrepresentation to which he had been subjected must of course have arisen from his being misunderstood. He had asserted, also, that the hanging those informations, suspended in terrorem over the heads of individuals, an act so different from their original intention, could be done for no other earthly purpose than that of upholding influence. To this no answer whatever was given; and yet his noble friend was accused of uttering it "lightly and factiously," (" captiously," across the table) well, no matter, they were both nearly the same (A laugh.) If he, for instance, made any attack on the chief justice, or attempted to give the noble and learned lord on the woolsack a trimming, no doubt in the estimation of them both there would no be a more "factious" man in the kingdom than their humble servant, This was a very serious subject, and his noble friend had treated it as such; he had quoted the opinion of Mr. Dunning, the ablest lawyer that ever graced the English bar, that Ex Officio Informations, though coming within the letter, did not come within the spirit of the law, and
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ought to be done away with as they might in some instances become tyrannous and oppressive. It was agreed on all bands that abuses might creep into the system, and those abuses could only be stopped and corrected by parliamentary vigilance. One abuse, for instance, was the delay which had been already alluded to. This could only be encouraged for the purpose of undue influence. Their lordships ought carefully to distinguish between two species of libels. The one species was libels against individuals, and these it was their duty, as they regarded the prosperity, and honour and character of the country, to discourage. If such libels were suffered, society could not exist. Truth in such cases was no justification. He would put a case:—suppose a man was in the habit of getting continually drunk (a thing, by the bye, which he never did himself), and that a fellow in the street thought proper to follow him along the flags wherever he went, shouting it out all the road behind him: now here the charge might be very true; but still no one could say that the libeller was justifiable. The publication of such libels had a direct tendency to a breach of the peace; for every man could not be supposed to possess the politeness of lord Chesterfield, concerning whom, as connected with this subject, he would relate to them an anecdote. His lordship was walking along the flags, and an impudent fellow pushed him away, saying, "I never give the wall to a scoundrel." Lord Chesterfield immediately took off his hat, and making him a low bow, replied, "Sir, I always do." To the licentiousness of the press no man could be a greater enemy than himself; to its liberty no man could be a greater friend. All public questions ought to be open to the press; every subject connected with religion, philosophy, government, of the administration of justice, any thing which could by possibility be supposed connected with the benefit of the nation, ought to be duly and freely discusssed. This was his idea; and he thought at the same time also, that the licentiousness of the press was the deadliest enemy which its liberty had. He would give them an anecdote on this subject, and perhaps the best history of the country was the history of its anecdote. He had an old friend, an amiable, worthy, able man. This friend and he were always differing, but still be did not like him the less, because he knew he spoke from conscience; and when a man

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does that be is entitled, if not to respect, at least to tolerance. They differed, among other things, about the press—he was a friend to its liberty—his friend argued for its restraint. He (lord S.) could not help, however, severely Condemning some scandalous libels which were daily pouring forth at that period against lord Bute and the then princess of Wales; but his friend replied, "Oh! never mind them, only let them come to a proper height, and in time the evil will cure itself;" meaning thereby, that its licentiousness would at last come to such a pitch that its liberty must be checked in order to restrain it.
Lord Erskinesaid, that in his way of considering the subject before the House, it was not necessary that his noble friend, who had moved for the informations tiled within the last ten years, should be able to establish by evidence a probable ground of abuse to entitle him to have the papers he asked for. It would be sufficient for him to show that from any cause, from the increase, for instance, of printing and of periodical publications, a very large body of the people were daily subject, in the exercise of useful and honest occupations, to a prosecution, not attempted to be vindicated by the greatest law authorities, but as an anomaly in the constitution for the punishment of enormous offenders against the very existence of the State. On this principle he admitted that Informations Ex Officio were as ancient as the law, and were suffered to remain by the statute of king William, when informations by the King's coroner were taken away. But if these informations, instead of being applicable as formerly to a very small number of persons upon extraordinary occasions, became applicable to ordinary abuses or mistakes by all persons engaged in printing, it became the duty of parliament to enter into an inquiry upon the subject, and even without the suggestion of an abuse, to provide a protection against State prosecutions for misdemeanors analogous to those which the statute law had long enacted for the security of persons arraigned for treasons against the State. In ordinary criminal cases, the law, though universally indulgent, thought it necessary to keep within limits the privileges of parlies accused.—A man, accused of felony, may be prosecuted at any period. There is no statute of limitation to secure him when his witnesses may be absent or dead. He hears the indictment read for the first time by the clerk of the arraigns
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when he is put upon his trial; he bas no-copy of it delivered to him; he knows nothing of the case intended to be made against him; he is a stranger to the witnesses who are to prove it, and he can have no counsel to make his defence to the jury, but only to argue matters of law with the" court. Such is the naked condition, of a prisoner, when his adversary is a private man. But when he is accused of high treason, he is covered all over with the armour of the law. He has a giant to fight with when he has to encounter the whole weight and influence of the Crown, and he is protected accordingly. The indictment must be preferred within three years from the commission of the crime. Every principle of limitation of time, as enacted in cases of treasons, surely applies, with tenfold force to prosecutions for libels, but above all to periodical publications. Treasons may be most secret, and most generally are so. They may not be discovered till long after three years; but still the law, in its general indulgence, imposes that limitation of time; treasons also, when discovered, oppose other difficulties to conviction. It may be much longer before the traitors can be detected, and longer still before evidence can be obtained. But libels in periodical publications are known to the crown the instant they are published, and government has already obtained laws which make known to them, immediately and universally, the responsible persons; the names of all the proprietors, publishers and printers, being registered in the stamp office, not only for purposes of revenue, but expressly for the detection of offences against the State. Upon what principle, then, ought such prosecutions to be delayed? There ought, on the contrary, to be a very short limitation of time indeed to prevent their being made instruments of terror, or of dangerous influence over the press. A copy of it must be delivered to him ten days before the trial. He must have the whole pannel of the jurors who are to try him, with their descriptions and places of abode, so as to entitle him to sift their characters for objections for cause, and even for 35 capricious challenges without any cause at all. If he dislikes the physiognomy of a juror, he sets him aside; he is entitled to full defence by two counsel to speak to the jury upon his whole case. The treason must be established by two witnesses, though one is sufficient to convict even in any other capital case;

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and be must be brought to trial without delay or be set at large. Nothing could be more striking than the illustration of these principles, in Hadfield's case, for shooting at the King at the theatre. In most other countries he might have been trampled under foot or carried to instant execution; but here he was protected in the manner he had described. Though insanity was his defence, he was taken to be sane when he demanded all these privileges in open court, and he called upon the court to assign him (Lord Erskine) to plead for him, who had no privilege to refuse it. Such examples, instead of weakening government, was a bulwark to support it. Now, why should not persons, accused by the Attorney General, by Ex Officio Information, have analogous protections. They have the same antagonist to fight with, and why not the same armour to cover them? Ail the power and influence of government are exerted equally against them, and the cases are precisely the same, except that the crown does not fight with weapons that are mortal; but the wounds they inflict may be desperate. But they not only have not analogous protection, but they are exposed to greater dangers than in eases of ordinary crimes, by the abuse of special juries. He did not mean to complain of the institution, but to want of proper regulation. He had long had the greatest respect for many gentlemen who served upon them, but the most honest men were not equally tit for all' trusts. They were often deeply connected with government, engaged in the collection of the revenue, and magistrates in every county in the kingdom. The list was not returned by the Sheriff, but was made up by the Master in the office of the King's Bench. He did not believe that an honester man existed than the individual who held that office, but that was no answer to the subject who was cut off from his choice out of the general mass of the county where he is tried. He thought therefore that it would not only be just, but the wisest policy, to take the whole subject into immediate consideration. The administration of justice, to be useful, must be popular; and it never became unpopular but through abuse. He had always stood up for the character and honour of the law as the sure foundation of all social order and happiness, but for that very reason he would always give his voice, by salutary improvements, to rescue it from suspicion and to deliver it from reproach.
The Lord Chancellorobserved, that he could say with his noble friend that he also felt grateful for the honours with which a gracious master had rewarded his humble services; and that humble as his efforts might have been, those who were to inherit those honours from him would know that he had done his duty. As to the distinctions which had been drawn between the proceedings in the case of treason and libel, it should be remembered that in the former the accusation rests upon general principles—in the latter upon an alledged specific fact. He believed that no Attorney General had prosecuted more libels than it had fallen to his lot to prosecute when he held that office. He acted on a conviction at that time, certainly, that the publication of libel was one of the most formidable weapons then wielded against the constitution; and that it was an engine which was directed to the subversion of the government of the country. It was grateful to him to reflect that he had, by his conduct then, done his part towards its preservation. As to what had been introduced on the subject of special juries, he could not perceive how that was at all connected with the object of the noble baron's motion; but he would remind the House, that if any alteration was attempted in the present mode of regulating special juries, the same principle would equally apply to some change in the system of summoning common juries, who were all returned at the discretion of the Sheriff. (Hear, hear!) He did not know the meaning of this exclamation, but he could assure noble lords he spoke for the purpose of being heard. It was his decided opinion, that the mere fact of the number of prosecutions having increased, by a considerable number, in the last ten years, was not a sufficient ground for inducing them to accede to the motion of the noble lord. He must do that noble lord the justice to say, that he had, when the late act respecting Ex Officio Informations, authorising the Attorney General to hold persons against whom they may be filed to bail, was first introduced, given to it his strongest opposition. He him self unquestionably had approved of it, possibly from prejudice, and possibly from the esteem in which he held its authors. He knew well that the person who now filled the office of Attorney General, for whom he felt the most sincere respect, had been greatly misrepresented. This, however, he did

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not lament—it was the natural and necessary consequence of the authority which he exercised, and it was also the privilege of a free people to view with distrust, and even with dislike, the necessary exercise of that authority. At the same time he must say, that a great deal of misconception prevailed in the public mind on the subject, that if well and truly understood, it would appear that no public officer holding the same trust had ever displayed a larger portion of mildness and forbearance.—It would be seen that he was the most forbearing prosecutor in the kingdom. If the cases demanding the filing of Ex Officio Informations for the last 29 years were laid before the House, they would be astonished at the forbearance of that officer. The House would see that the Attorney General not only did not, but that he dared not use that species of oppression imputed to him. His trust was of a description which it was not under the circumstances of the responsibility which he incurred, probable, if possible, that he should venture to abuse.
Much had been said by the noble lord (Holland) of the great legal authorities that had set themselves against the general principle of Ex Officio Informations. The practice of filing these informations, be would readily admit, was always most unpopular, and, in the course of his professional pursuits, he knew many young men who were, when called to the bar, most eloquent in their condemnation of it. Somehow or other, however, he afterwards found, that when those very men were employed by government and taken into consultations, that all the odiousness of the practice vanished from before their eyes. However warmly they might have contended against these informations when engaged against the crown officers, there was, he believed, no instance of their refusing the Attorney General their assistance, whenever he invited it, in carrying on the same Ex Officio Informations. After all the statements which had been made of the rigour exercised by virtue of the late act, only one person had been held to bail, and it was in that aggravated case of an immediate re-publication of the libel, which had been already noticed. He recollected well, that when he was Attorney General, a singular mode of doing the same thing was practised. As the prosecutor of a libel, he was obliged to state the libellous matter in the record, and this record of the indictment was, in many
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instances, itself immediately published, and the circulation of the libel thus ingeniously extended. It was impossible not to be amused at the contrivance, but it was an evil which imperiously required a remedy. With respect to the circumstance of the Morning Post, he was desirous of stating that the principle which governed him, on those occasions, was to prosecute all the parties implicated in the publication of the libel, and he had uniformly found, that, by extinguishing the papers, he got rid of the authors. He must oppose the motion, because the very adoption of it would in some degree sanction a suspicion that there was something improper in the administration of justice. The substantial interests of the public required that they should give every prima facie presumption that persons who filled offices of trust, particularly those relating to the administration of the laws, discharged them with fidelity and integrity; and no clamours should be excited against them, except in cases of such aggravated misconduct as called for the severest reprobation. As for the general topic of the liberty of the press, he would be judged by his acts what his sentiments were on that subject.
The Earl of Grosvenorobserved, that after the able speech of the noble baron near him, it was unnecessary for him to obtrude a single word on their lordships. That speech had remained unanswered and unanswerable; except the misrepresentation of the noble and learned lord (Ellenborough) could be considered as an answer. He felt the deepest regret at hearing the sentiments that fell from that noble person. He thought that his noble friend had laid before the House good and substantial grounds for his motion, and he should, therefore, support it. Enough had been stated to justify an investigation into the practice of the Attorney General's office.
Lord Redesdalesaid, that as it had not been his lot to institute any prosecutions for libel, while he was Attorney General, he could at least give an unbiassed vote on this occasion. From his acquaintance with the gentleman who now filled that office, he was enabled to say, that he was sure no man could feel more pain than he did in discharging the irksome duties of his situation. It had been insinuated, that he acted by the advice and under the direction of ministers; he would not deny that this might be sometimes the case; but it ought

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to be remembered, that he alone was responsible. If any blame was intended to be cast on him therefore, it should be done directly and explicitly. If it wars the object of the noble mover merely to regulate the law as it now stood, this might be effected without the production of the document for which he had moved. Upon the general subject of the freedom of the press, it had been said, that where this freedom existed, no despotic government could long stand, and that without it no free state could long maintain its independence. If this was true, how powerful an engine must it be, and how careful ought not every legislature to be to prevent its exceeding its proper bounds! And could any man assert that the press was not now free in this country? With the examples before them of its licentiousness, could any noble lord seriously say, that the restrictions of the law had operated to crush or annihilate a due spirit of free discussion? Without some means of prosecution it would be vain to deprecate that licentiousness which existed now, and, perhaps, had always existed, and he was not disposed to think the law in its present state harsher than was necessary for the attainment of this purpose. If, however, the noble lord (Holland) was impressed with an unfavourable opinion of it, the most direct and proper mode would undoubtedly be to-propose at once either a total repeal of the existing law or some modification of it.
The Marquis of Lansdownesaid, that after the very able and eloquent manner in which the subject under discussion had been treated by noble lords of distinguished talents and learning, he could have been well satisfied without offering himself to the attention of the House. But, as he was anxious that the vote which he should give, if his noble friend (Holland) should divide the House, might be subject to no misconception, he begged shortly to state the grounds on which that vote would be given. And he was the more anxious to be clearly understood, after witnessing the extent of that misconception which prevailed in the mind of the noble and learned lord (Ellenborough), upon what had fallen from his noble friend. Feeling, as he did, that the English language did not afford terms of sufficient energy and expression to enable him to signify the surprise he felt at that misconception and misrepresentation, he wished to guard particularly against a similar danger. He fully concurred in the opinions of the learned lords
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who had spoken that night, that the process by Information Ex Officio was sanctioned by the whole practice of the constitution, and bottomed on the earliest precedents of our history. He would go farther, and say, that he believed it to be a most necessary and indispensable instrument of the government. He had, during the short time he had passed in office, seen abundant evidence of the expediency of this mode of proceeding in cases connected with the execution of the revenue laws. Such a power he therefore conceived was wisely and properly lodged in the hands of the officers of the crown. But did any thing which his noble friend had said tend to question this proposition? So far from it, he frankly and distinctly made this acknowledgment, and confined his motion to an inquiry whether this in itself just and necessary power, had not been in its exercise misapplied. In support of the grounds which he laid for this motion, his noble friend quoted the opinions of lord Hale and Mr. Justice Blackstone—opinions which had scarcely been noticed, much less controverted by the noble and learned lords. His noble friend quoted those opinions in order to shew that the mode of prosecution by Information Ex Officio, regular and constitutional as it was, was at the same time a mode originally intended to be adopted only on certain especial and urgent occasions. He had listened with the deepest attention to the speeches of noble and learned lords, in expectation of hearing something that should controvert this doctrine. But no attempt whatever had been made by them for this purpose. The noble and learned lord (Ellenborough) on the contrary, confined his exertions to the combating positions of his own, instead of those of his adversary, and he felt himself therefore justified in assuming, that Hale and Blackstone were right, since nothing had been offered to demonstrate that they were wrong. If then Mr. Justice Blackstone had described Informations Ex Officio as a mode of proceeding of a most summary and peculiar character, not easily to be reconciled to the general spirit of the constitution, as an instrument in the hands of the crown to enable it to interpose in cases of enormous crimes, threatening immediate danger or ruin to the state;—and if the object of his noble friend, on understanding that in the course of three years 42 criminal informations had been filed Ex Officio, when daring the six preceding

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years the number was but sixteen, was to procure an authentic statement of this fact, with what truth or propriety could he be charged either with irregularity or want of candour? Was not this the ordinary established form of proceeding for the purposes of parliamentary investigation; and in what other manner was it possible to discover whether any power had been abused? His noble friend had laid a broad and distinct ground on which it became the duty of the House to inquire whether the increased number of prosecutions sprung from the law itself, or from the misapplication of it. The effect of his motion could not be mischievous—it might be highly beneficial. It was at all periods beneficial to satisfy and assure the public mind; to dissipate its doubts, and extinguish its suspicions. If an extraordinary authority was exercised, the country ought to be convinced that it was not exercised except on principles of just government and imperious necessity. If then the motion should have the consequence of establishing this conviction, it would have a salutary operation; if, on the. other hand, it should be followed by the detection of abuse, it would be a disrespect to the noble and learned lords opposite to him, to suppose, that they would not gladly co-operate in its exposure and condemnation, and in the task of bringing back the law to its ancient standard. When such a statement as had been made was before them, of the extent to which criminal informations had been carried, it behoved that House to consider well the nature of this spreading innovation, and its possible tendency to supersede grand juries altogether. It was certainly not the rule of the House to reject a motion for the production of papers, on the principle that the papers were already accessible to every body. It was always held necessary that such documents should be put on their own records, before any legislative step could be taken respecting them. So much for the form; in substance the motion went only to inquire into the cause of the vast increase of late years in the number of prosecutions for libel. In voting for this inquiry, he did not feel himself pledged to any subsequent proceeding; they were discussing at present nothing more than the propriety of the inquiry—of an inquiry suggested by those wise feelings of constitutional jealousy which had hitherto proved the safeguard of all the liberties we enjoy.
The earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the same motives which induced the noble lord to give his reasons for voting in favour of the motion, prevailed with him to give his reasons for voting against it. The motion was for information, and the question which would naturally suggest itself upon this was, whether such information was necessary or not? It appeared to him that it was not necessary: for every information of this kind could be obtained by other means than an application to parliament. He knew perfectly well, that, if it was in contemplation to follow up the motion by any parliamentary proceeding, such an application should be made; but when the operation of the motion was to bring suspicion on the administration of justice, which he agreed ought not even to be suspected, when this was the case, he must say that the course for the noble lord would be to select any prosecution of which he complained as oppressive, and then to make his motion for inquiry. To tell them that the prosecutions for the three last years exceeded in number the prosecutions of former years, was telling them nothing; it might proceed from different causes, from the diffusion of learning, or even from the circumstance of too great lenity having been shewn before. He believed if they looked to the libels of different times, they would find that they were much the same, or perhaps if they differed in any thing, they were worse in former times: but after this admission he must observe, that though perhaps in particular instances the evil was not as great, yet the extent to which it was carried, in those times, required a more vigorous prosecution. The frequency of libels in modern times, arose out of the progress of civilization. Publications of all kinds became more numerous than formerly, and libels also might be expected to multiply; but when it was said that the prosecutions of the Attorney-General were subjects of such universal complaint, he believed that if the complaints were collected, it would be found that the far greater number charged him with too much lenity. He would refer for the character of his prosecutions to their results, to the decisions of the juries upon them, and they would find that of all the prosecutions actually brought to trial, only two had failed. It might be necessary for the peace of the country that prosecutions should increase. The House in the exercise of its coastitutional

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duty was undoubtedly bound to look with jealousy, but it was also bound to give support to the administration of justice. With respect to the case of the Morning Post, it did not bear upon the point; it had been cited as an instance of partiality, but in order to prove that, if was necessary to shew that a course was adopted in that case which was not adapted in any other; but the sane Attorney-General had acted in a similar manner in other cases, which was an answer to the chatge. He knew that many were of opinion that, if the author was given up, the printer should not be prosecused; the noble lord opposite (lord Holland) thought so; his noble and learned friend near him (lord Ellenborugh) thought the contrary; but he believed that the truth lay between both, and that it was not possible to make any general rule which should be considered a sufficient guide without any view to the circumstances. He had witnessed the zeal of the Attorney-General in his office, and was sure there was no man whose mind was less under the influence of oppressive inclination, or who discharged the duties of his situation more faithfully; the country owed him great obligations, and was indebted to him for adding greatly to the true and genuine liberty of the press.
Lord Hollandrose in reply and said: My Lords; I rose before to claim of your lordships' justice the right of explanation. I rise now to ask of your courtesy that which is never refused to the mover of a question, the privilege of saying a few words, at the close of a debate, on what has passed in the course of it. I cannot, however, pretend that I rise to reply, for what arguments have been adduced by the other side that have not been answered by my noble friends, that have not been triumphantly exposed and refuted in the excellent speech of my noble relation (the marquis of Lansdown)? Any observation on objections so refuted would be ill-judged and unnecessary; and yet, my Lords, I must trespass for a few minutes on your time, for I feel myself called upon, not, indeed, to answer arguments, but to repel accusations and charges; not to combat objections to my motion, but to vindicate my character from aspersions which have been thrown out, I will not say in a disorderly and unparliamentary manner, but, at least, in a style and tone which, fortunately for the dignity of your deliberations, is rare and unusual in this
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House. I have been told, not by inference, but in direct terms, that I am captious, that I am passionate, that I am indirect and unmanly. I profess not the temper of bearing such charges with equanimity, and if I were to disguise my astonishment, and, I will say my indignation, at hearing them brought against me, I should, in fact, prove myself guilty of that insincerity with which I am charged. With respect to the vehemence or passion with which I may have expressed myself, I should have hoped that the learned lord would have had the charity to recollect that I never had the advantages of those judicial habits from which he has profited so much, and which, as they require from him, so they have, no doubt, taught him that calmness and composure of manner for which he is so remarkable. The practice of such duties, and the exercise of such temper as those duties require, can alone bring the feelings of men to so perfect a state of discipline, and produce, even in the delivery of their strongest opinions, that dignified and dispassionate tone which adds a grace to ail the noble and learned lord's public appearances, and has so eminently distinguished his conduct on this night's debate. I fear, my Lords, I shall never attain that composure of manner and command of temper of which the noble and learned lord inculcates the necessity full as much as he affords the example. Indeed, I must acknowledge that I shall not even aspire to emulate the model he holds out to me, and while I admire his precepts, must confess that I have no ambition to follow his example. While, therefore, he retains all the advantages which his approbation of that virtue joined to his practice of it, intitles him to, I snail content myself with intreating your lordships not to impute any unbecoming violence or impetuosity to me, if, convinced of the existence of abuse, I am anxious to detect it; and it, having detected it I am earnest in soliciting measures of correction and regulation. The noble and learned lord has talked in a high strain of his own heroic contempt of clamour He has held up to your lordships' admiration his inflexible firmness of character, and his glowing, though rational love of liberty. All this may be so, and I give him credit for the sentiments which he professes; but though I may vaunt less lealoudly my contempt of clamour, I will tell the noble lord, that unfounded accusation and intemperate virulence of language,

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be they clamour or be they not, come they from a mob or from an individual, or from what quarter they may, will not deter me from doing ray duty in this House, nor, I trust, prevent one member of it from voting for such inquiry, regulation, or even reform, as he in his conscience thinks beneficial to the country. The invective, which has nothing to recommend it but authority, is as much clamour as the cries and shouts of a mob, and I hope, that, till I hear facts and arguments against the measures I recommend, I shall have the courage and honesty to treat the assailants of them, be they who they may, with a due portion of that feeling which the noble and learned lord so properly reserves for all clamour unfounded in reason.
But, my Lords, the motion of this night is not a motion of reform; it is simply a motion for papers, for documents, for information and evidence on which to proceed; and, forsooth on that very account it is unmanly! it is indirect! Such a charge is not very usual—is it very orderly in this House? Is any peer to be lightly accused of proposing one thing and meaning another? For myself, how far my general character warrants such an imputation, I must leave to those who know me best to decide; but I will say, with confidence, perhaps it may be thought with arrogance, that, on that point, I would hardly decline being tried by my enemies themselves. But, exclusive of my own character, where are the grounds, where is the sense of the learned lord's accusation? What so common, what so reasonable as seeking for the evidence on which the propriety of measures one wishes to recommend must necessarily rest? What is there unmanly in this? Have I disguised my objects; have I not rather detained, and, I fear, wearied your lordships with the detail of them? I think, indeed, that, even without concurring with me in those objects, the House should procure the information I ask for; but I have not concealed what is my view of that information, or what are the measures I should ground upon it. In this, then, there is nothing insincere, nothing indirect. If the learned lord objects to it on that score, he must object to proceedings in Parliament without end. Did he never read a remedial statute? Does he suppose that the abuses which such statutes correct, that the grievances which such statutes remove, "re not ascertained before they are recited
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and acted upon? and why, when I have a measure of remedy and precaution in view, is it unmanly or indirect in me to move for the proof of the evil which I endeavour to correct? It is by the statute of William and Mary (which, though the noble lord once denied the existence of it, I make no doubt he is now well acquainted with); it is by the precedent of that statute that I wish to be guided. That statute states in the preamble, that "vexatious prosecutions on criminal informations had frequently occurred of late, by which parties had been put to great expence, &c. &c." And then proceeds to provide such measures as might prevent the recurrence of the abuse. So I, who mean to recommend to your lordships some legislative measure in consequence of the increased frequency of one particular description of prosecutions, the Ex Officio Informations, think it neither indirect nor unreasonable to call for information of the numbers of such informations that have been filed of late years—to this object the motion is confined; and while I have in view some further regulation, I begin in the first instance by laying my ground, and ascertaining the facts on which the propriety of that regulation must rest. The noble and learned lord further says that he has paid painful attention to my speech, and found it, as he foresaw it would be, a continuation of my former argument, a mere nondum finitus Orestes, as he is pleased sarcastically to term it. It is a pity the noble lord's memory should be as treacherous as his attention is unavailing. In spite of the one he has misapprehended, as your lordships must all have seen, every word I have spoken this night, and I can assure your lordships that in the exercise of the other, his statement of what passed three years ago is as incorrect, is as directly the reverse of what I did say, as his representations of my arguments this night.—The discussions on the Bill of 1808 are fresh in my recollection; they made a deep impression on my mind, a deeper, perhaps, than the noble and learned lord could wish, or was aware of; there were circumstances in those discussions not easily forgotten. The noble and learned lord interrupted me on that occasion to deny the existence of a law, to which I was referring; a law which, in spite of such interruption, still, remained and remains unrepealed on the statute books; a law which the noble and learned lord who first denied

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its existence, and then maintained its desuetude, actually executes every term, or if he does not execute, is impeachable and punishable for a neglect of his judicial duties. I remember these things, and I speak before another learned lord who must remember them too, and will set merightifmy memory is incorrect, I mean the noble and learned lord on the woolsack.—To him, though I so often differ with him, though I hare frequently and recently felt it my duty to arraign his public conduct. To him I confidently appeal—for no man is more attentive, more patiently attentive to the arguments of his adversary, and no man (I am ready and happy to bear my testimony to that truth) more fair, more candid, more acute, and yet more courteous in his way of contending with them. To him I appeal then as to what passed on that night, and as to the arguments which the noble and learned lord has imputed to me—I opposed that bill in toto. The noble and learned lord on the woolsack, explained one part of the bill to which I had objected, to my satisfaction, and to that part I withdrew, as in duty and conscience I was bound to withdraw, my opposition; but for the other part which gave the new power of holding persons to bail on Ex Officio Informations, I heard no explanation, no apology, no reason; nor have I since heard one word to prove it justice, or its necessity.—I opposed it therefore in every stage, but I never used the arguments or expressions which the noble and learned lord (Ellenborough) has supposed, nor any thing like them.—So far from indulging in the hyperbolical strain, which the learned lord's fancy and not his memory repeats, the argument I did use was at variance with that which he puts into my mouth; far from foretelling the immediate downfall of King, Lords, and Commons, from the bill, I distinctly stated, that I apprehended no immediate consequences, good, bad, or indifferent, from the law, but that it was the principle, it was the use to which in bad times it might, and would be applied, that my fears were directed to; and though it is now two or three years ago, it so happens that I recollect the very metaphor I used, though not certainly a very happy or a very new one, but it illustrates the truth of my statement. It was, as far as I can recollect my expression, this, "that the law would remain long torpid in your statute book, but it would lie there fraught with a venom, which the accidental heat of factious
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and turbulent times might at some future period draw forth into action." Yet the noble lord is pleased to indulge his pleasantry and sarcasm by imputing to me a prophecy of immediate tyranny which I never uttered, and banters me with wonderful self-complacency at its not being accomplished! Once for all, I never professed one of the principles against which the noble lord inveighs; I never used one of the arguments which the noble and learned lord refutes; I never made one of the statements which the noble and learned lord ridicules. He may attack them, he may answer them, he may expose them, but he has no right to impute' them to me, or to think he is answering what I formerly said or have this night said on the subject. The noble Secretary of State too makes an ingenious and able defence, but it is the defence of a place that has not been attacked. No inference, says he, is to be drawn from the increase of prosecutions, because we all know how publications are increased, and the proportion prosecutions bear to them may not be greater now than formerly.—Be it so; but we were not talking of the increase of prosecutions in general; I am moving for the number of Informations Ex Officio, and I will ask him this; if they have increased in number within these last three years, and not only in number but in proportion too, to other modes of prosecution, will he say that no inference is to be drawn from that? If he does, will he tell me from what possible facts inferences of this nature are to be drawn? Well, but, says another learned lord (Redesdale) after all the Attorney General is responsible, and solely responsible, for the exercise of this duty. I must say, by the bye, I was glad to hear this avowal, though I do not see how it made for the learned lord's argument, or justified his vote against inquiry; however I was glad to hear it, for the habit, apparently generous, but really artful and pernicious, of every man in office starting up to share the responsibility of a colleague in an act in which he is the only official agent; this habit, I say, or rather this trick, this cant, this jargon, has a tendency to fritter away all responsibility whatever, and to render that great security of our liberties a mere dead letter in the constitution.—On this responsibility the learned lord on the woolsack states that he, when Attorney General, did many things which he justly says I should disapprove, but which he

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assures the House, were more severe than any now resorted to by his successor; and he alludes more particularly to his punishing printers and publishers as severely, or at least as uniformly as authors. I am certainly not disposed to compliment that learned lord, on that part of his political life, and still less to speak with respect of those times and those proceedings, but yet this I must say, that the times were peculiar, that many independent and good men thought they justified a deviation from common rules, and as far as the subject now before us is affected, parliament itself had by inquiries, committees, legislative acts, and other proceedings, (whether wisely or not, is not now the question) expressed its opinion that offences of this nature had increased, and that extraordinary vigilance and even severity should be resorted to. Parliament then was not likely to notice any increase of prosecutions which it had itself encouraged and sanctioned. The same causes which had Jed to the increased number of prosecutions, did lead to alarms in parliament, to committees, to laws, and to other proceedings. Parliament in its own conduct recognized causes which might well occasion an additional number of prosecutions, but that is not the case now, nor is it a reason why with the unexplained fact that Ex Officio Informations are now increased in the proportion of 8 to 1, in the course of three years, we should take no step, and should not even inquire whether this phœnomenon proceeds from an increase of offences which might require additional laws to put them down, or an abuse of authority which might call for some censure to punish it, or some regulation to restrain it in future. I do indeed differ with the noble and learned lord; I am not for punishing author, printer, and publisher of a libel. The law it seems to me should take no cognizance of the latter but for the purpose of coming at the former. A contrary system acts as a system of terror on printers and booksellers, and may defraud the public of works not only innocent but useful, by deterring the intermediate agents from printing and publishing a book which their ignorance, or their timidity, may lead them erroneously to deem libellous. I did not disapprove of the principle on which the prosecution of the Morning Post was dropped; but if it was applicable to others and applied only to him, it-is surely a presumption of partiality, it is a sort of primâ facie evidence
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against the Attorney General. More than primâ facie evidence, I never thought of bringing against that gentleman, whom I do not know personally, but whom all I have heard of him ill private would lead me to respect; but I stated my case, and it has not been controverted. I stated that the number of Ex Officio Informations had increased in a proportion of 8 to 1.—I repeat it then, this amounts to primâ facie evidence, and surely the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, who talks with complacency of prosecuting publishers, printers and proprietors, as well as authors, will have no objection to primâ facie evidence. I only urge it as sufficient for parliamentary inquiry, but to support his doctrines he must contend that it justifies legal prosecution and punishment. I am asked where I learnt that Mr. Dunning's opinion was against Ex Officio Informations, and I am told, that he did not object to taking fees for them. Pitiful answer to my quotation of his authority! I care not whether he took fees, or what he maintained or did, as an advocate, but as a member of parliament (and a better never sat in the House of Commons) he spoke and voted on the motion of Mr. Constantine Phipps against them, and with him voted, serjeant Glynn, that excellent man Sir George Savile, and Mr. Burke, and no less than 78 of the most respectable members of that time, they voted I believe for the suppression of Ex Officio Informations; they spoke, I know, against both the expediency and legality of them, and while I disclaim that objection to the mode of proceeding, I cannot believe that the origin of a practice is quite so pure, or the principle so obviously sound, as the noble and learned lords would persuade us, when I see such a man as Mr. Dunning, and as others I could mention, disposed to call it in question. With respect to special juries I will say nothing more, perhaps it would have been more discreet to have said nothing, but thus much I must repeat, that as they are in the eye of the law itself less favourable to the defendant in criminal prosecutions, it behoves parliament to be more vigilant, more ready to institute inquiry, and to afford as much protection as the safety of the state will allow to such offences as are exclusively exposed to be tried by the less favourable tribunal. They add a link to the peculiar difficulties with which persons charged with libel have to contend, and when I see the temper in which

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some men discuss these subjects, when I reflect on the sort of law which is fashionable, which is afloat on these matters, not merely among the vulgar and idle talkers, not in the mouth of heedless and insignificant men, but in that of grave characters invested with authority, I own I urn anxious that all encroachment on the freedom of the press should be jealously watched, and studiously guarded against by Parliament. When for instance I hear of a notion, that libels* may be stopped by an injunction from Chancery; that publications, by which individuals may think that their feelings would be hurt, may be stifled in embryo at the will of a crown lawyer, in short that the Great Seal may in effect exercise that imprimatur which our ancestors wrested from the crown, and which, revived in any shape would be sufficient to check the progress of all knowledge and to subvert all liberty:—when I hear of such things I do not think the press in that perfect state of security which some men would persuade us, and I am sure the only way of preserving that security is, by evincing here, here in parliament, an anxious, jealous, and uniform attention to all that concerns it.—My lords, I do not mean to allude to the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, such a notion I am well persuaded never passed his lips nor entered his head. Whatever may be the law afloat on the subject, and whatever his aversion to printers, publishers, and authors of libels, he is too good, too sound a lawyer to harbour such an idea; while the seals are in his hands he knows his inportant duties too well to issue an injunction against any publication in which the persons praying for that injunction neither possess nor claim any property or interest whatever. An injunction on criminal grounds, from a court of Chancery! Good God! did your lordships ever hear till the period of this report (a false one I trust, but which, if so, may now be contradicted) did your lordships ever hear or dream of such a proceeding? Would not the noble and learned lord on the woolsack blush for the most inexperienced barrister in his court who should venture to make so preposterous an application? who should ask him to interfere by an act of power which the analogy
* His lordship was supposed to allude to the summing up of the evidence in the trial of Hope versus Debost.
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of our laws, the practice of our courts, and the safety of our liberties all alike pronounce to be impossible for him to exercise? If indeed a man, from an apprehension of being libelied, can obtain an injunction against the exhibition of a picture or the publication of a book, in vain have our ancestors put down imprimaturs and licensers, the Great Seal virtually possesses their pernicious powers, and every paper that is printed, every book that is read, would be indebted to the Lord Chancellor's forbearance for not being crushed, and stifled in its birth. It is strange that any man should think this law; it is yet more melancholy that thinking it so he should not wish to alter it. To endure such a law would be to submit to the worst species of tyranny, to subject the press, and through it the human mind itself, to the worst species of degradation, a controul of its facilities of reasoning; or, in other words, to leave to the discretion of one man the right of suppressing the words and thoughts of all his fellow subjects. This, my lords, among other symptoms, shews a jealousy of the freedom of the press, in those most likely to possess the power of restraining it; and this among other things, together with the strong fact of an increase of Ex Officio Informations, leads me to move an inquiry which is in my judgment called for by the circumstances which may lead to regulation, if regulation be necessary, but will at any rate have the effect of checking and controuling that temper of the times which, if unchecked and uncontrouled, is too well calculated to produce encroachments of power and abuse of authority.
The House then divided, when the numbers were:

For Lord Holland's Motion

12

Against it

24

Majority against the Motion

—12