Sitting of 14 June 1811

ADDRESS RESPECTING CAPTAIN MANBY'S LIFE PRESERVER.
Mr. Wilberforce, pursuant to notice, called the attention of the House to captain Manby's invention for preserving seamen's lives. Captain Manby had already received a public reward for it; and animated by this, he had made various improvements in it. The whole had been tried and approved by a Committee of general officers. The invention added greatly to the utility of Mr. Greathead's life boat. Upon the whole, he thought it highly desireable that the apparatus should be established on different parts of the coast. The arrangements had better be left to the executive government, who, he hoped, would grant re-wards to those who exerted themselves in preserving the lives of seamen. He him-self had in vain attempted to procure a reward for some persons who had, at the risk of their lives, preserved several from wreck, and these very men afterwards re-fused to go out in a case of distress, be-cause they said they had families of their own, and could not expose their lives to imminent hazard without the conviction that, in case of the worst, their families should be provided for. The expence of this would be trifling and the benefit would be great. He concluded by moving, "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince
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Regent, that he will be graciously pleased to give directions, that such measures, as may appear expedient to his Majesty's government, may be adopted without delay for carrying into execution, on suit-able parts of the sea coast of Great Britain, captain Manby's Plans for saving the Lives of Shipwrecked Mariners; and that this House will make good the expenses attending the same."
Mr. Roseseconded the motion; remarking particularly on the utility of the invention, as it enabled the life-boat to reach vessels in distress on many occasions when otherwise a boat could not possibly be launched.
Mr. Bastard,although he highly approved of the invention, yet cautioned the House, after the experience which they had already had during the present session, as in the case of Mr. Palmer, against addresses stating their disposition to make good any payments of money.
Mr. Wilberforceobserved, that the expences in the present instance would be very small.
Sir T. Turtonsaid, that the remark of his hon. friend related not to the amount, but to the motion itself. There was this difference, however, between the case to which his hon. friend alluded and that at present under consideration, namely, that in the former instance, the vote of the House was against the opinion of ministers, but that in the latter it received their sanction.
The motion was then agreed to.

DISTILLERIES.
The House went into the further consideration of the report of the Spirits Suspension Duties Bill.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, that it was his intention to obviate some of the objections which had been made to the Bill, by introducing a clause on the report, putting the Irish Distillers on the same footing in exporting as the English distillers, and containing several other amendments.
Mr. W. Smithlamented that the right hon. gentleman had not expressed his intention at a more early period, as the counsel who were about to be called in could scarcely be expected to accommodate the argument which they had pre-pared, to so sudden an alteration. Still, however, he bespoke the earnest attention of the House to the subject, which was one of vital importance both to the British distiller and to the general revenue.

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Mr. Dauncey and Mr. Warren were then called to the bar, and heard at considerable length; the former as counsel for the English distillers, the latter as counsel for the Scotch distillers.
The counsel having concluded and with-drawn, the amendments in the Report were agreed to.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthen said, that he had some clauses to propose which he presumed to think would meet the whole of the objections to the Bill. He had no doubt that the great danger of frauds being committed in consequence of the intercourse, must arise in Ireland, where a duty being imposed on 100 gallons of spirits, without regard to its strength, those 100 gallons might be converted into 130 gallons, and the 100 gallons being exported to England, the 30 gallons would become a clear bonus to the exporter. When the English distillers, however, said that they would go on without any regulation rather than have the Bill now before the House, that he was aware, could only be regarded as an expression of anger, which was not to be attended to. This was a diminished evil, and it must be better to have it than an aggravated weight. He must say, in praise of the British distillers, that greater candour, greater liberality, or a greater desire to afford information, he had never found in any body of men. They, surely, however, had a great interest in suspending, as long as possible, the intercourse between the countries, and in driving parliament for some time longer to continue the prohibition. Till the introduction of these clauses, which he had now to propose, he agreed the Bill was open to objection, as it allowed the distiller of Ireland to export spirits without payment of any excise duty, or subject to any drawback except what might be supposed to be produced by the duty on malt. This, too, it was to be observed, was only an experiment, and if it should not be found to answer, it would not be carried farther, the duration of the present Bill being only for such a period after the commencement of the next session of parliament, as would allow time for reconsidering the measure. To prevent any interference between the English, Scotch, and Irish distillers, which might lead to frauds or to unjust advantages on either side, he should propose that no spirits be exported from either of the countries but through warehouses to be established in each. This was no new
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machinery which he wished to create. He found it in existence, and wished to apply it to the particular case under consideration. He agreed that it was wrong that the trade in Ireland should go on for home consumption, and for warehousing for exportation at the same time. This, he was aware, could not long be suffered. The permit he should propose should specify not only the quantity, but the strength of the spirit, and if any fraud should be committed in mixing any such spirits, that then it should be forfeited. He then moved three several clauses, declaring, first, that no spirits should be warehoused in Ireland for exportation, unless where the strength was specified; second, that no spirits should be delivered for exportation, unless where the strength was specified: and thirdly, that distiller" of spirits in England for exportation to Ireland, do distil their spirits under the same regulations as are provided by the acts of the 28th and 45th of the King.
The two first clauses were brought up and agreed to. On the third clause being put,
Mr. W. Smithcould not conceive oft what principle the House were to agree to such a clause as the present. He could not attribute it to any wish on the part of the right hon. gent. to encourage injustice, but must lay it to the account merely of inadvertency. The right hon. gent. he had no doubt had adopted it as a shadow of reciprocity of rights between this country and Ireland, founded on the act of the 45th of the king, chap. 100. He wished the House only to attend to this one fact. The Bill in question was to expire three months after the meeting of the next session of parliament, and, by the way in which the clause in question was framed the English distiller could not avail him-self of the privilege allowed him till October in the next year after the passing of the act, and by which time, of course, the act must have expired. By what name was he to call this! Was it a nullity? Was it an insult? Or was it merely an inadvertency on the part of the right hon. gent.? If he did not agree that it was an inadvertency, then could it be nothing but an insult. The clear import of the clause was this, either that the party intending; to avail himself of the benefit of the clause must erect new warehouses for the reception of the spirits to be exported, or he could not commence warehousing in his present premises for twelve months. A

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clause had been proposed to the right hon. gent. which would have removed great part of the objection, namely, to prevent the distillers of Ireland from working for the home trade of Ireland, while they worked for the foreign market, which it was impossible they could do fairly at the same time. In this way it would have been incumbent on the Irish distiller, if he were on a Tuesday working for home consumption, then to stop, and to give notice that on the second day after he should commence working for exportation. This was at present the law in Scotland, and why not so in Ireland, where frauds were more likely to be committed? That the greatest frauds were at present committed in the distilleries of Ireland, appeared from the statement of the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. The right hon. gent. has been pleased to talk highly of the candour and liberality of the English distillers. They would rather, he could assure his right hon. friend, have a little solid pudding than so much empty praise. The clause proposed was an absolute nullity, as far as concerned the Bill.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, if the meaning of the clause was as it had appeared to his hon. friend, the clause was defectively worded. He surely meant that the same premises used by a distiller at the time of passing the act, might be used for the purposes of this clause. He believed the measure would be found more advantageous for all parties than when there was no intercourse. Could it be expected, then, that Ireland would give op her home market for the chance of exporting? And if the House had no absolute right to prevent this, would not the introduction of such a clause be an indirect mode of preventing that which openly and directly they had no right to prevent?
Mr. P. Moorealluded to the boons which had lately been conferred on Scotland, in grants for her roads, bridges, and canals; and to the grants to our colonies on the ceast of Africa, &c.; and argued, that as the distillery was the only branch in which it was alledged that Ireland had at all been favoured at the Union, it would be unjust and ungenerous totally to deprive her of that the only boon she had received.
Mr. Marryattcontended that the Union was founded on principles of reciprocity, and that whatever was unprovided for in this respect, ought to be done away with. What was this measure, but that the Irish distillers should pay no duties and
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no drawbacks? The right hon. gent. had said, that he would not recommend this as a permanent measure. He would ask, how-ever, why it ought not to be kept as perfect, as if it were a permanent measure? Two years ago the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland had trusted to a great increase in the revenue from the consumption of spirits; but in this he had failed. Then the duty was again lowered, that the consumption might be increased. What the country had gained, however, in revenue, she had lost in morals, as the hospitals of Dublin could tell. Morals and industry were the strength and riches of the country; and, as going to under-mine both, the present seemed to him one of the worst measures that could be adopt-ed. Rather than agree to such a Bill he would have the intercourse suspended till next session.
The clause was then put and agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill. On the question that the Bill be engrossed,
Mr. W. Smithagain protested against the principle of the Bill, and also against its details. He did not wish to require that the Irish distiller should have two places for carrying on his business, but only that he should give two days notice before proceeding to convert his operations from distilling for home consumption to distillation for exportation, and that in the mean time his work should be suspended. What he complained of was that every thing in those regulations was given to Ireland. Gentlemen said that suspending the intercourse was infringing the Union. Would they say, however, that the imposing of drawbacks did not infringe the Union? If this was not so, then was his argument gone. If it was, then was there a fallacy in saying that he was guilty of a breach of the Union who recommended that out of which a solid and substantial benefit arose, and that he was not guilty of such breach who was for giving an unfair and undue advantage. The right hon. gent. said that the distillers in Scotland would be able to avail themselves of the privilege of warehousing which he pro-posed. There were only two persons in Scotland, however, who would be able to do so; and for that reciprocity all Ireland was to be enabled to send spirits into England. He had heard of Irish reciprocity; if this was not it, he could not conceive in what it consisted. The English distillers had gone on, trusting to the assurances of the right hon. gent. that things should con-

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tinue formerly, and one of those understood agreements was, that the non-inter-course with Ireland should continue for three months after the conclusion of the session of Parliament. The question was, whether parties who complained were not the best judges of the grievances they suffered? They said to the right hon. gent. "If we cannot have things as we wish them to be, let them stand as they are. The right hon. gent. said, "No; you must have what we are willing to give you." This was not what the English distillers had a right to expect from him. The 'rights of the country were thus sacrificed; and if the corn distillery of England was to be stripped for the convenience of Ire-land, then had the landed interest of Eng-land more reason to complain than they would have had in the case of the distillation from sugar. In the one only a fair advantage was given to the importers of sugar; in the other, an unfair advantage was given to the corn grower of Ireland. All that the English distillers asked was, that in the article of notice previous to proceeding to the distilling for exportation, the three countries should be put on a footing. The right hon. gent., on the other hand, did not make this reciprocal, but imposed on Ireland only as much of the burden as he thought proper. What the English distillers here demanded was only suspension of intercourse, or justice, no more.
Mr. Hutchinsonargued in support of the Bill. The countervailing duties imposed by the act of the Union, were equal to the internal duties on the imports of spirits from Great Britain into Ireland, and from Ireland into Great Britain—imposing, how-ever, a drawback on the export equal to the countervailing duty. At the Union, the countervailing duty in Ireland was fixed at 3s.7d. per quarter—the drawback was, of course, the same. By the 48th of the king, the duty was raised to 5s. 8d. and the countervailing duty was declared to be also 5s. 8d. The 50th of the king repealed the 48th, and lowered the duty to 3s. 4d. without imposing my countervailing duty. The intercourse being now "pen, the drawback was 3s. 7d. and of course excessive, the duty being only 3s. 4d. A countervailing duty of 3s. 4d. was then introduced. But this drawback, thus reduced to 3s. 4d, the British distiller contended to be still excessive, and demanded a suspension of the spirit trade between the two countries, which would
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deprive the Irish distiller of his undoubted right of coming into the British market, upon his paying the countervailing duty as existing in Great Britain; and this too, while the British distiller affected to com-plain of his being shutout of a market, not only open to him on fair terms, but which he had never been disposed to resort to. The Irish distiller had, indeed, a strong ground of complaint against the Scots distiller, who went into the Irish market, receiving as a drawback the British and not the Scots duty, two shillings more than he paid, while the Irish spirits came into the Scots market paying the British instead of the Scots duty. When in 1804, the British distiller complained of certain internal advantages under which the Irish distiller came into the British market, the Irish distiller was quickly dispossessed of what it was scarce worth the trouble to deprive him, by the warehousing Bill. This alarm attempted to be excited against the Irish distiller was quite in conformity with the old spirit of monopoly which had so strongly characterised Great Britain in her commercial dealings with all the world, to which Ireland had been for centuries exposed, and under which she had suffered the most cruel persecution. The smallest extension of trade was at all periods with the utmost difficulty, and after the severest struggles, obtained for Ireland. Her internal manufactures were studiously discouraged, a direct trade to any of the colonies or the rest of the world interdicted under the heaviest penalties. It was about 113 years since king William declared to the English House of Commons "I shall do all that lies in me to discourage the woollen manufactures of Ireland." Nay, so late as 1778 the table of the House of Commons was covered with petitions against a miserabe indulgence to Ireland of a direct trade in glass and hardware with the coast of Africa; and at this period, the cities of Glasgow, Liverpool and Manchester carried their magnanimity and patriotism to such a length, as even to threaten rebellion should these indulgences he allowed to Ireland. Even now Great Britain would thankfully receive in her necessity the raw material, the corn from Ireland—while she would illiberally at-tempt to exclude spirit, the manufacture from that raw material! A free trade upon no duties, or equal duties, was the principle of the Union. This principle had been effected with a vengeance as against Ireland; but when she required

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the same principle to be acted upon as against Scotland, her trade was interdicted, and the Union violated. Admitting, how-ever, that the Irish distiller did reap some advantages from the spirit trade of Ireland with this country, was he therefore to be deprived of the trade itself? If so, would they restore to his country all that she had lost by the degrading and abominable measure of Union? [Here the hon. gent. was interrupted by cries of—Order, order! Chair, chair!]
The Speaker. The hon. member will do well to recollect, that such is not the language which it becomes this House to hear, or him to use, in speaking of a grave and solemn act of Parliament.
Mr. HutchinsonSir, I trust I am incapable of using language unworthy this place or myself. In saying what I have said, I have obeyed the dictate of feelings of which I am not ashamed; and while I know them to be just, I know not why I am to suffer the expression of them to be dictated to me. [Here the cries of—Order, order! Chair, chair! became louder and more general.]
The Speaker. The hon. member will be pleased to see the necessity of conforming to the usages of this House, in the expression of his opinions.
Mr. Hutchinson. To conform to the "sages of this House I am in every way disposed; but my first right as a member of it is, what I shall never willingly re-sign—(Order, order!)—If privilege of speech be not the right of every member of this House, I know not what is—I have always thought it to be the right of every member of this House, what he feels honestly, to declare boldly—my feelings with respect to that measure of Union, have been strong and uniform. When it was first proposed, I foresaw in it danger to this country, in the danger, the degradation, and the ruin of my own—and as a common friend to both, I resisted it by every means within my power; and am I now to be denied the melancholy privilege of deploring the humiliating state to which that measure has reduced my country, by making her a party in effecting her national extinction? Am I to be denied the right of complaining that she has been tricked out of her independence by promises which have been all violated, and hopes which have been all blasted? It, however, after all this it be the secret determination to rob her gradually of the very few advantages, and those too of par-
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tial operation, to which under even such an act she may be entitled, why then let but gentlemen avow this, and let the Union be dissolved.
The House then divided:

Ayes

60

Noes

19

Majority

—47

FRENCH PRISONERS OF WAR.
An Account of the number of French Prisoners of War in England being presented to the House,
Mr. Rosetook occasion to observe, that it would appear from these documents that the total number of French Prisoners remaining in England amounted to 45,933, and that the returns of the sick were 321. The number on parole were 2,710, and the sick 165. This statement he conceived would be a sufficient answer to the imputations of negligence upon the part of this government which had been thrown out by a noble lord.
Lord Cochranerose and said: Sir; I do not know whether it is perfectly regular to make any observations on the production of these papers; but reproached as I am at this moment by the pointed ad-dress of the right hon. gent., and goaded as I have been by his repeated assertions, that I am unable to prove facts which I have stated to this House, it is incumbent upon me to justify my conduct, in having given notice of a motion relative to the prison in Dartmoor, but in which I did not persevere, for reasons very different from those assigned by the right hon. gent., namely, "an inability to prove facts." Sir, if facilities are afforded to investigate truth, that right hon. gent. will find, that neither within or out of this House have I ever asserted that which I am unable to establish. The time that has elapsed will sufficiently evidence my reluctance to bring this matter to the knowledge of the public, fearing that a disclosure might add to the misfortunes of our countrymen in France. However, the defence of my character now compels me to say a few words in relation to it, and the right hon. gent. and his colleagues have themselves alone to blame.
Having received many letters, stating the condition of the Prisoners of War at Dart-moor to be truly deplorable, I deter-mined to investigate the subject; and having had occasion to go to Exeter, I proceeded to Launceston, and other depots, whence I obtained the intelligence, and

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being satisfied that the complaints had some foundation, I went to Dart-moor, not doubting but that every facility would have been afforded to disprove the com-plaints, and invalidate the heavy charges made; but, to my great astonishment, I was refused admittance, even in my capacity as a member of Parliament. [A great laugh.] Yes! I say in my capacity as a member of Parliament! which, what-ever respect or consideration it merits in the opinion of the hon. gentlemen who indulge themselves in laughing, it ought to entitle the members of this House to ad-mission there, or into any prison in the kingdom.
Having contributed to place many individuals into this depot, I applied also for permission to see the interior, as a captain of the navy, but I was refused leave, except to look through a grating into the outer court-yard. This caution, I confess, produced a conviction in my mind that there existed some hidden motive for unusual secrecy. I asked for the authority which prevented my informing my-self of the state of the prisoners, and I was shewn an Order from the Transport-board, which increased my desire the more, as I found the climate of the prison accurately and faithfully described in the complaints which had been made to me, It is exposed on the summit of the highest and most bleak range of mountains in Devonshire, where the winter winds pierce with all the keenness possible, increased by constant fogs and sleet, and rain; it is situated in the midst of a barren moor, on which no vegetable grows, I was told that the prison wall had only been seen nine times from the Agent's house during the whole winter, although it is as near to it as from your chair, Sir, to that door, and in such a state of obscurity was Dart-moor involved, by fog and rain, that when I was there I had a guide each time to conduct me.
Anxious to learn the reason for building a depot in so barren, elevated and extraordinary a situation, I inquired the cause of various persons, and I was uniformly answered, that it was with a view to attract inhabitants to the Moor. A Moor, Sir, on which Englishmen since the creation never lived. A Moor on which Scotchmen refused to live. Saunders invited to take possession of it, some years ago, naturally inquired why English folk did not live there? And judging the answer, that it was high and, to be unsatisfactory,
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he asked if broom, whins, heath, briers, or thistles grew on the highly recommended spot? And being answered in the negative he said "keep it to yoursef man, it wonna do for me at a'."—I was certain, Sir, that attracting inhabitants to this desert could not be the real motive. So, unable to get satisfactory answers at Dartmoor, I proceeded to Plymouth, where I obtained a plan of the Prison, fully corroborating one complaint, that the health of the prisoners had suffered by exposure to heavy rains, whilst standing in an open space for several hours, receiving provisions issued at a single door; the cooking room being several hundred feet distant from the Prisons, which then contained six thousand prisoners, divided into messes of six; consequently one thousand were soaked through in the morning attending for their breakfast, and one thousand more at dinner. Thus a third were constantly wet, many without a shift of clothes. I was told, however, that they gambled or sold them.
This being the state of things, I felt it a duty to proceed farther, and investigate, as well with a view to relieve those who had conveyed their complaints to me, as for the sake of our prisoners in France, and the honour of our country. At Plymouth I saw a return of sick and of deaths—I concluded that the fever arose from the cause which I have assigned, wet clothes in close prisons. Whether the return was made up daily or weekly, I do not remember—I cannot charge my memory at this distance of time, I think the number of deaths were 49 [A great laugh.] Sir, my want of recollection can-not alter facts, which are or ought to be on record, and perhaps are contained in the very paper now presented by the right hon. gent. if that paper is correct.
Here give me leave to observe, that the transport board, sick and hurt board, and the superintendance of prisoners of war, are all preposterously and absurdly united, by which means material duties are confided to and conducted by clerks; this is one of our new savings. The country, however, would have no reason to regret the expence of a few thousands a year, to responsible persons, in order that those distinct duties might be properly executed. Is it rational that letters written about the hire of transports, should be referred to medical men—or the allowance of medicines depend on the judgments of those whose habits enable them to perform the

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office of ship brokers? If this is not the case, why unite them? I remember once getting an answer from this board, that although our medicines were expended, we could get no more until the twelve-month expired.
But, Sir, to return to the subject. On my second visit to Dart-moor, being again refused admittance, I began to explore the exterior, in the prosecution of which it occurred to me, that the manure of the prison, in a situation so distant from any town, might be an object to some one. On inquiry what became of it? the answer was, It was carried away by a common sewer. I asked, if it ran streight down the hill from the prison? And being answered in the negative, I thought it might lead to a discovery, if I followed the stercoraceous duct, which I found led diagonally nearly on a water level, meandering along the sides of the hills. Mark, Sir, I do not ascribe any motives, but it is a strange coincidence of facts, that this prison should, by accident, have been placed on the only spot in Devon, whence the stercoraceous matter of the depot could, by the power of gravity alone, descend on a neighbouring and elevated estate belonging to the Secretary of his royal highness the Prince Regent. (Mr. Tyrwhitt). It is a very extraordinary circumstance, and one, Sir, if it had happened in the island of Walcheren, to an estate of the Secretary of Louis Napoleon, we should have been surprized at.
The prison of Dart-moor stands in the most inclement part of all England [a laugh.] Yes; in the most inclement part, I speak not of the feelings of consumptive individuals protected by good houses, and comfortable warm cloathing. But I speak of men ill cloathed, exposed as the French prisoners were, on the top of the highest mountain in Devonshire, involved in perpetual rains and eternal fog. That the prison was not built there on a principle of economy, may be seen, by inspecting the contracts for provisions, coals and necessaries, furnished at Dart-moor and at Plymouth, I think I calculated the difference at more than seven thousand pounds a year, on the provisions alone. It may he very proper, that prisoners should not be collected in great numbers at Plymouth, but I assert, without fear of disinterested contradiction, and without the possibility of the fact being disproved, that Dart-moor depot ought not to have been placed on the top of the highest and most barren
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range of mountains in Devonshire, where it is involved in constant fog, and deluged with perpetual rain.
If the right hon. gent. thinks proper to go more at large into this subject at a future period, and to add to the papers which he has just placed on the table the Reports of medical men and others, relative to the state of the prison at the period alluded to, and the situation in which it is built, I am prepared to meet him even upon that point, which he has imprudently pitched upon as a feature of my inconsistency; although it will be in the recollection of the House, that the notice I gave was solely, that I should move for papers.
I may add to my other reasons for relinquishing my intention, that I received assurances that the situation of the prisoners would be immediately attended to. I shall abstain from remarking on the manner in which the right hon. gent. has taken me by suprize, and wrested from me these facts in my own defence. Had I brought this matter forward voluntarily, I do assure the House that it was my intention to have cleared the Gallery, to prevent publicity.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that by the noble lord's own statement, the circumstances of the prison were altered. There had been a mortality among the prisoners in the spring of 1810, from the arrival of some French from the West Indies, in a very dirty state. Those mea brought fever into the prison, but it was soon got under. The Chancellor of the Exchequer then succinctly answered the other statements, and concluded by expressing his surprise that if the noble lord had known of all those charges, he had never brought them forward before. The prisoners were at this moment in a state of comfort unequalled in any military prison, and in a state of health which was not exceeded by that of the healthiest district of England.
Mr. Whitbreadfelt himself obliged to make some observations on what had fallen from the noble lord. He had taken the pains of making many enquiries into the state of the prisoners, and he must say, that all his enquiries were satisfactorily answered. There had been a fever in the prison, from infection; that was got over. As to the assertions, that there was a difficulty of corresponding with the Transport Board, be had happened to have a good deal of correspondence with

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the Board on the subject of those very French prisoners, and he would say, that he was surprised, not merely at the quickness of their returning an answer, but at the minute information which they gave of every prisoner. He had observed, in one of his visits, that there was a want of clothing among the prisoners, but the reply was nearly satisfactory. Some of those prisoners possibly had reason to complain, that enough clothes had not been furnished to them lately; but of others, it was known, that if they had three rags, they would gamble away two of them. The situation of the prisoners at Dartmoor seemed as comfortable as the situation of a prisoner could be.
Mr. Rosesaid the malignant fever was in January, and that in April, out of 5,000 prisoners, there were but 60 sick.
Mr. Crippssaid that to his certain know-ledge the water at Dartmoor was excellent.
Mr. Stephenreprobated the injudicious and careless spirit in which many of the observations on the subject had been hazarded by the noble lord.
The Papers were then ordered to be printed.

LOVEDEN'S DIVORCE BILL.
On the third reading of Loveden's Divorce Bill.
Mr. Lockhart, after a few observations en the legal nature of divorce, moved that some provision for Mrs. Loveden might be allotted out of her own portion. He conceived that he should not exceed moderate bounds, by naming 300 l. a year. (A cry from all parts of the House of—Name 400 l.)
Mr. Giddystated, that he had learned from the counsel in this case that Mr. Loveden objected to her having any annuity, as she had a jointure of 800 l a year, which she might sell. (A cry of no, no.)
Sir J. Grahamthought 400 l. a year extremely moderate, when it was considered that the party was a young woman. If no provision were given, it would be an inducement for old honourable members of that House to marry young wives. (A laugh, and Order.)
Mr. Wilsonhoped for the credit of the House, that they would not, with their eyes open, drive a young and very unfortunate woman into courses, if possible more vicious than those which had ruined her character already.
Mr. W. Smith, in allusion to sir J. Graham's expressions) wished it not to be un-
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derstood as the idea of that House, that a young woman married to an older man was not as much bound to give him her whole attachment, as if their ages were equal. It was lord Thurlow's opinion, that a wife's bringing a large fortune, was no reason that an adultress should demand back a large provision. Two hundred pounds would probably have been the portion allotted by lord Thurlow.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, if 200 l. was enough in lord Thurlow's time, 400 l. was not more than enough now.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerconceived the question an extremely serious one. He wished to have time to consider it. It was only mercy to the sex, to avoid making the road easy and profitable to a crime, most injurious to society, and ruinous to the character of females. Ha did not know yet, whether the House ought to sanction the giving so large a share of the interest of her portion to this unfortunate woman. It might be, too, that passing a clause to that effect might be introducing a precedent and interfering with proceedings already instituted by the other House. He wished to hear the opinions of legal men on that point.
Mr. Simeonsaid, that he had known an instance of a clause of the nature of the present one inserted by the Commons and that it was not rejected by the Lords. The House went into a Committee, and the clause was brought up, and read a first and a second time.
Mr. P. Mooreanswered, that Mrs. Loveden's portion was 12,000 l. and (as far as we could understand) that the liberality of her family made it equal to 1,000 a year.
The Speakerobserved, that the clause was not without example. In 1793, a clause had been introduced into a bill from the Lords, and it was not thrown out by them on its return. The sum named was, however only 50 l. But during the ten years in which he had been Speaker, no such measure had been brought forward; and when he saw the bill coming from the Lords without such a clause, and when the motion was made at so late a period of the session, he must recommend the House to take farther time to consider what they were doing.
After a few words from sir J. Graham, the Speaker moved that the Committee report progress, and ask leave to sit again which was agreed to.

Mr. MANSELL PHILIPPS.
The order for the attendance of Mr. Mansell Philipps being read,
Mr. Lockhartsaid, that Mr. Philipps had called upon him at about 10 o'clock in the morning, and told him, that though he had not been served with an order, he understood the House required his attendance, and therefore he would come either that day, or the following. He requested to know the nature and prayer of the petition, and being told that it was to compel his appearance to an indictment in the county of Surrey, he asked, What he should do? To this he (Mr. Lockbart) replied, that he should go to a clerk of the peace, and give bail for his appearance; and also before a judge in his chambers, and bind himself to attend at the session. Mr. Philipps's answer was, that he was always Willing to do so, bat being misinformed by his attorney, and told that his appearence was not necessary, he bad neglected it. In consequence of this communication, he had to state, that Mr. Philipps had since appeared before a clerk of the peace, and brought from him a certificate to that effect; and also that he had promised on his honour to attend at the judge's chambers. Having succeeded so far, he trusted the House would consider he had discharged his duty: he therefore moved that the order for Mr. Philipps's appearance might be discharged.
The Speakersaid that as no complaint was now made, the order fell to the ground of course.—The order was accordingly discharged.

ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITIONS.
Earl Greyexpressed his regret, that in consequence of illness his noble friend (the earl of Donoughmore) was rendered, unable to attend the House, to bring forward his motion the Roman Catholic Petitions. He could take upon him to assure their lordships, that nothing but the inability on the part of his noble friend, not only to make any exertion, but even to attend the House, would have prevented him from bringing forward his motion. It would be desirable at this late period of the session"

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to appoint as early a day as possible, and therefore he moved to discharge the order far summoning their lordships for this day, and to renew it for Tuesday, having every reason to believe that his noble friend would on that day be able to attend.
The Earl of Liverpooldid not rise to oppose the motion, but merely to express a hope that the discussion would not be deferred beyond Tuesday, if it was meant to bring it on at all this session, although he thought it might be postponed till the next session without the least prejudice to the question. He also wished to observe, that the Committee on the Militia Interchange Bill, which had been postponed till Monday, could not at this late period of the session be longer deferred, without great inconvenience.
Earl Greysaid, there was every reason to believe that his noble friend would be able to attend on Tuesday, and would in that case certainly bring on the question.