Sitting of 28 February 1811

DISPUTE WITH AMERICA.
Mr. Whit-breadrose to put a question to the right hon. gent. respecting our relations with the United States. They had been given to understand in the Regent's Speech, at
where he used to work, and that he used to give him some of his provisions; and he began to mend, as' he thought, and about a week ago he was taken worse, and continued so till he died; and that he sometimes asked for particular things, water-gruel and mutton-broth, and which he gave him; that he sometimes took them, and sometimes could not.; and he. believes he had every thing he asked for that it was in his power to give him, and that he continued in his clothes till his death; that he used to be very often fretting about his wife, who was ill, and for that reason he could not see her; and that he had a soldier's cloak, and another coat, and several waistcoats on.
"Elizabeth Brannan, on her oath, saith, That she lives a servant with Mrs. Champion in the said prison, and that about a week ago she went up into Kauffman's room, and saw a man lying in bed there, which she believes to be the said Thomas Culver; and he said he was starving, that he wanted a bason of coffee; and she said she would speak to her mistress to make him a bason; and her mistress did so: and she took it up to Culver, and two crumpets; this was about ten o'clock in the morning; and he drank the coffee, but did not eat the crumpets; and about six o'clock in the afternoon she took him up some tca, and he drank it; and about nine o'clock the same night she took him up some barley water, and he was calling out for the watchman; and she asked him what he wanted with him, and he said he wanted half a pint of stout; and she went to the watchman, and told him of it; but whether he took it or not she does not know; she says there was a fire in the room; this was about three days before he died.
"Nathan Settle, a prisoner in the said prison, on his oath saith, That when the said Thomas Culver came into the said prison, he was apparently well, and that he was taken ill some weeks after, and that he then got better and relapsed again, and that he continued ill till he died; that he saw him twice during his illness; that
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the opening of the session, that the nego-ciations so long pending were likely to have an amicable termination; there were, however, rumours then afloat, of a very opposite tendency; if he had been rightly informed, the American minister had had his audience of leave, this day, of the Prince Regent, preparatory to his
the day before he died, he saw him in bed in Kauffman's room, and that whilst he was there the doctor came, and he asked him how he did, and he said he was very bad; and the doctor said he saw he was worse than when he saw him last; and then Mr. Canfield said he had given him some things, and had appointed a man to sit up with him; he said he did not complain he was in want of any thing.
"Robert Hay, a prisoner in the said prison, on his oath saith, That when Culver first came into the prison he was apparently well, and was taken ill soon after; and that one day he met him in the yard, and he asked him how he did, and he said he was starving; and he took him to his room and gave him some pork and mutton, which he did not then eat, but took away with him; and that he frequently saw him afterwards, and he always complained of being in want, and said he had not then had a mouthful of bread for two days; this was about a month before he died.
"William Hammerton, a prisoner in the said prison, on his oath saith, That about a fortnight after Culver came into the prison he saw him, and he asked him if be had some broken victuals, and said he should be glad of it, for he had not had any victuals for two days till just then, when Mr. Flay and Mr. Alman had given him a bit of pork; and that be was apparently well; but he was afterwards told he bad some bacon at the same time in his bag; and about two months ago he saw him take up a bono in the yard, which had just been thrown down, and put it to his mouth.
"Thomas Brade, a prisoner in the said prison, on his oath saith, That he was in the prison when the said Thomas Culver first came in, and that he was then apparently well, and in about a week or a fortnight after he was taken ill, that he desired a surgeon might be sent for, and a surgeon was sent for, who attended him, he believes, three or four times in the course of that week, and gave him medicines; he says he appeared to him to have died for want of proper attendance.

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quitting this country, and thus putting a final and not an amicable termination to his mission. If this were the case, he wished to ask the right hon. gent. if it was his intention, under such circumstances, to advise his royal highness to direct the necessary papers respecting that negociation to be laid upon the table of that House?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was true that the American minister had that day had his audience of leave, but that the negociations were finally broken off, he had yet to learn of the hon. gent. Though the American minister was about to leave this country, he was not quitting it under such circumstances as the hon. gent. supposed. He would leave behind him a charge d'affaires to carry on a diplomatic correspondence, and so far from the negociations between the two countries being interrupted, a gentleman had just been appointed envoy extraordinary to. America. There was nothing in the manner in which the American minister, now about leaving this country, took his departure, that could give reason to any one to suppose such an interruption had occurred. Under these circumstances, he saw no reason for advising the Prince Regent to cause any papers on the subject to be laid before the House, which would not otherwise be produced.
Mr. Whitbreadwas glad to hear an answer so contradictory of what he had understood to be the case, but confessed, at the same time, that it was not sufficiently satisfactory to his mind, and that he must, therefore, reserve to himself the right of giving notice on some early day, of a motion for the necessary papers on this subject.

IRISH DISTILLERIES.
Mr. Grattan,in
"William Palmer, surgeon, on his oath, saith, That soon after the said Thomas Culver came into the prison, he was sent for to him, and he was then very unwell with a feverish complaint and a bowel complaint connected with it, and he got better about a week after, and soon relapsed again; and that he was then taken ill again, and it appeared from a breaking up of his constitution that he was then above 70 years of age, and that he believes he had all the necessaries that he from time to time required to have, either from Mr. Jenkins or any other person; and, that he administered such medicines as he thought necessary."
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pursuance of notice, moved; "That an humble Address be presented to the Prince Regent, praying, that he would be graciously pleased to direct, that an investigation may be made into the quantity of home-made spirits distilled from grain, remaining in the hands of the Distillers of Ireland, upon the 5th of March, 1810, when the reduction of the duty upon spirits took place; praying compensation for the losses sustained by them; and assuring his Royal Highness that this House will make good the same."
Mr. Shaw,of Dublin, rose to second the address, and in doing so, begged leave to assure the House, that no case could possibly come before them which had stronger claims on their attention and their justice. They would recollect, that from the month of June, 1808, to the month of March, 1810, the distillation from grain had been prohibited; the natural consequence of this was, that at the end of that period, there remained upon hand a very considerable stock of spirits distilled from sugar. The allowance of the distillation from grain must have sensibly affected the value of this stock bad that allowance been duly foreseen, but it took place contrary to all fair expectation; its operations on the price of the sugar spirits were, of course, not only strong, but sudden; and not only was the allowance granted, but the duty was reduced from 5s. 8d. to 2s. 6d. and consequently no time afforded for the disposal of the large stock of sugar spirits on hand, though the invariable rule was, that whenever any additional duty was put on spirits, the stock on hand was always excised, and therefore the persons concerned in the trade expected some regulation in case of a reduction of duty. In this case, however, there had been none, and therefore the stock became in general so much dead loss; and he need scarcely remind the House of the sad effects of this was manifested in so melancholy a manner, by the unprecedented increase of bankruptcies last year in Dublin. The speculation in sugar-spirit had been very extensive in consequence of the confident and general expectation of the continuance of the prohibition; all the speculators were severe sufferers, and those of them who had not large and extensive capitals, found themselves suddenly involved in inevitable bankruptcy. For these reasons he trusted the House would see the necessity of resorting to the speediest and most effectual means of compensating those who

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had suffered at once so extensively and so unmeritedly.
The Speakercalled the attention of the House to the subject matter of the proposition about to be submitted to them. There was a standing order of the House, that no petitions for money should be received, unless recommended by the crown. This was a motion co obtain compensation. Without the form of a petition, the same effect was intended to be produced.
Mr. Fosteropposed the motion. No man could say mat the reduction of the duty upon spirits imposed any hardship upon any of the distillers. As it was done by act of parliament, it afforded them a fair notice of what was intended to be done. The stock of spirits was taken upon the same day the prohibition was enforced, and there were found to be 115,000 gallons; and only 50,000 gallons were distilled under the higher duties. There was not then enough of spirits to answer the market in Ireland, so that the distillers found greater benefit in supplying it, instead of exporting their spirits. There were not spirits equal to two days distillation in the whole of that country; so that these distillers had a sale for their spirits which amply indemnified them for the duties they paid. The duty was altered from 5s. 8d. to 2s. 6d. per gallon; but they were not on that account entitled to a drawback of 3s. 2d. as they now claimed. The utmost they could claim, by his calculation, was 4½d. per gallon; but he saw no reason for making any allowance whatever. If any drawback were to be allowed, it might with equal propriety be allowed to all the other holders and dealers in all foreign spirits, a thing which would be extremely impolitic. In looking into the Journals, he found five petitions presented upon this subject formerly, and after it was discussed they were rejected. It was indeed contrary to the practice of the right hon. gent. himself, when in 1795 he brought in a bill into the Irish parliament for encouraging the brewing of beer, by taking off the excise duties, but there was no drawback allowed for the stock on hand. Under all these circumstances, he considered that there was this solid objection to the motion; that there was no document produced to shew that any investigation whatever was necessary. He thought such a question should go through a committee of the whole House, before such a motion could be made.
Sir J. Newportthought that it was but
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justice to allow a diminution of the duty upon the stock on hand, as well as that to be distilled. His complaint was, that there was no interval of time left for them to get rid of their stock. If there were only two days consumption of spirits in the country, there was surely the less difficulty in doing the necessary act of justice. As this was an age of precedents, they ought upon this occasion to follow that of the Tea Commutation Act, by which the duties were diminished, but a period of three months was allowed the dealers to dispose of their stock on hand; and it was on that account that no allowance of drawback was given to them. If the distillers had no other mode of redress but by petition, it was leaving it in the power of any financial minister to withhold his consent, on account of his being the individual who imposed the hardship complained of. He therefore agreed in the propriety of the line that had been adopted by his right hon. friend, as the proposed address prayed for an investigation, and not merely that money should be paid them.
Colonel Barrysaid, that in his opinion there was no ground for compensation whatever; for, in the first place, the distillers had proved no loss. These distillers had enjoyed a monopoly; and it did not appear that they had not sold every gallon of their spirits as high as ever they could have done, had there been no alteration of the duty.
Mr. Hutchinsonhad no doubt, that if the House agreed to the motion, they would be able to decide what was the amount of the loss these distillers had sustained. In 1783, when the duties upon French wines were equalized, the holders of these wines had a drawback granted to them, and such ought to be their conduct in the present instance. He did think the matter ought to be investigated by the House, as many failures, he understood, had taken place in consequence of the losses they had sustained.
The Speakerrepeated his objection to the mode of proceeding, as contrary to the established rule that had existed for a century. The identical case had already been submitted to the House in the form of a petition, and rejected on account of its not being regularly recommended on the part of the government, and it would be rendering their rule of no avail to receive it in any other form.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerapproved highly of what had fallen from the Chair.

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It had been said that if ministers thought proper to refuse their consent to any petition, it was impossible to procure redress; now, he did not think it had been usual to refuse such consent, for they had been more reproached for giving it too easily than for withholding it. They often gave their consent to petitions which they were convinced ought not to be received, as it still lay with the House to grant or refuse the prayer of them. This address seemed merely to be substituted for a petition that was rejected.
Sir j. Newportwas of the same opinion as formerly, for if such was the form of the House, it must sanction great injustice. He did not think that this present mode was by any means disrespectful. What he complained of was, that ministers had it in their power to withhold their consent, or to make it an act of favour. He should not however persevere in stating his opinion contrary to the sentiments of the House.
The Speakerthen put it to the right hon. gent. whether he would not wish, under these circumstances, to withdraw his motion.
Mr. Grattanaccordingly consented, and the motion was withdrawn.

MABINE INSURANCE BILL.
This Bill being read a second time, counsel were called in and heard.
Mr. Baringthen moved, that the Bill be committed, and said, that he would not trouble the House with any observations in the present stage, as he was sure that a measure which met the approbation of so large a body of merchants would at least be permitted to go into a committee.
Mr. Grenfellsaid, that after the frequent discussions upon this subject, and after what had fallen from the counsel, he should not enter much into it at present; but he only rose to observe, that the most proper mode would be to refer the subject to his Majesty's privy council, for the discussion of it in the House was an irregular interference with the prerogative of the crown. He should therefore oppose the motion for going into a committee.
Sir T. Turtondenied that the Bill was a mere speculation. The real question before the House was, whether the increase of trade since the institution of the corporations or companies said to be injured by the Bill, might not require a different system? The measure should have his support, as he believed its operation would be to throw open insurance at the lowest rate.
Mr. Marryattsaid that this Bill must be considered with regard to its ultimate object, which was, the establishment of a great combination, to do away every other mode of insurance. At present, there was a monopoly dc jure, But not de facto; if this measure succeeded, there would be a monopoly de facto, though not de jure. Such a company might command the rate of premium. Their interest would be to delay payment as long as possible, and their correspondents would encounter intolerable hardships. Instead of 1,500 individuals, as at present, there might be 20 companies whose secretaries might understand each other, and settle the premium at their pleasure. The companies, it had been proved, were a dearer resort, and their solidity was not such as afforded any compensation. All this was the effect of speculation taking the place of sober industry. He himself had a share in one of the fire offices (all of which would become marine insurers, if this Bill passed) for which he paid 500 l. He had been offered 2,000 l. for it, subject to the passing of this Bill. Companies, in short, would start up like the lottery insurance companies in every street, and would be. here to-day and gone to-morrow. Losses to the amount of six or seven millions had been lately paid, on account of the critical state of trade. What would have become of their million capital, if but nearly this sum had come upon it? He should therefore oppose the motion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercontroverted the opinion of Sir T. Turton on the, subject of the charters, and contended that the road to redress was open to these petitioners in the mode pointed out by the act, and consequently that their application to parliament was improper. On petitioning the King, the matter would go through the Privy Council to the Attorney General, who would hear it as a cause; and, on his report, the decision of the executive would be given. If the charters of the existing companies were found to be objectionable, by this mode they would be rescinded, and all the petitioners required by the present Bill would be accomplished. Yet, though this road had been pointed out to them last session, they had preferred coming again to parliament, where their claims, from the nature of a popular assembly, were not likely to be so accurately discussed. He condemned the original motives of the petitioners, and

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much as he was averse to new charters, he would rather agree to one of them, than to an anomalous copartnery like the present. He then pointed out many inconveniences that would arise were the present Bill to be passed, and so large a body established, which could only be sued in the name of their secretary, whose person would be all the insurers would have for their risks. On all these grounds he was hostile to this application.
Mr. Adamthought that the right hon. gent. had mistaken the state of the question, and that no part of his observations applied to it. A grievance had been proved to exist, and the object was to apply a remedy. The Bill did not propose to dissolve any charter, but merely to say, that the system of solitary insurances should no longer be the law. The grievance complained of was, the insecurity of insurances; and the measure submitted, was the doing away of that clause in the acts which prevented others from joining in companies. Therefore he thought that the argument of the right hon. gent. did not apply.
The Attorney Generalopposed the Bill, the object of which, he said, was, if not to destroy the charter, to take away one of the greatest advantages arising from the incorporation of those companies.
Sir John Anslrutltercontended that his Majesty's power applied only to the total repeal of the charter; but not to any particular modification, such as was now proposed. He was of opinion that the Bill should go into a committee.
After some further observations from the Solicitor General and Mr. Stephen, who spoke against the Bill, and from Mr. Morris and Mr. Baring, in favour of going in a committee, the House divided, when the numbers were,

For going into a Committee

25

Noes

26

Majority against the Bill

—1

BERKELEY PEERAGE.
The Lord Chancellorthought it right to call the attention of the House to a point which he conceived to be of considerable importance, relating to the case of the Berkeley Peerage. In all questions of this nature, it was the practice of the House to give notice to the person who had the semblance of right to the Peerage claimed, in case the actual claimant did not make good his claim, in order that he might appoint some one to attend at the bar, to take care of his interests. In the present case, the person who would be entitled, if the now claimant to the Berkeley Peerage did not make good his claim, namely, the son of the second marriage, in fact was a minor, and could not, therefore, legally appoint any one to take care of his interests, and lady Berkeley was appointed his guardian. Lady Berkeley was anxious that what was right should be done, and as it was highly desirable that her ladyship should be relieved from the peculiarly difficult situation in which she would stand between the interests of her two sons, he. suggested that the most satisfactory course would be to address his royal highness the Prince Regent to direct one of the law officers of the crown to attend at the bar, to take care of the interests of this younger son. His lordship concluded by giving notice of his intention to move to-morrow for a

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committee, to consider of what was right to be done in this case, and to report to the House.

DEATH OF A POOR DEBTOR CONFINED IN THE MARSHALSEA.
Lord Hollandcalled the attention of their lordships to a circumstance which he considered of the greatest importance: he alluded to the verdict of a coroner's jury in January last, on the body of a person deceased in the Marshalsea prison, and who was stated to hare died from want. The particulars of this case were peculiarly afflicting. The unfortunate individual was immured in the Marshalsea prison in November last, for a debt of only seven pounds. It appeared that he was in the greatest distress, and had no other means of subsistence than the charity of his unhappy fellow sufferers in the same prison. He was reduced even to gnaw the bones which were thrown into the yard; he had neither bed nor cloathing; the miserable room which he inhabited had no window; and when the jury viewed the body, it was in a state which it was impossible to describe. The coroner's jury had actually returned a verdict of "starved to death," but upon re-consideration, they finally returned the mitigated verdict of "we verily believe that the deceased's death was caused by want of food and cloathing, and of proper attention in his illness." The facts which he stated could be proved in evidence, is thought necessary, at their lordships' bar. He thought it right to mention, that two shillings were found upon the deceased, but from all the circumstances that had transpired, (here was every reason to believe, that these two shillings, if not conveyed into the pocket of the deceased after his death, were at least given to him at a period when it was too late to be of any service to him. From the slow process of the law, five months must elapse before the prisoner for debt could obtain from his creditor who kept him in prison, the miserable pittance of six-pence per day, and this wretched individual had, in the mean time, been reduced to this dreadful state of distress. He thought it his duty to make a motion, in order that this case might be brought before the House, and more particularly at this time, when the law of Debtor and Creditor was under their lordships' consideration, upon the I bills which had been by the noble and learned lord (Redesdale) presented to their notice. If their lordships had any wish to stand well with the people, he was cer-
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tain they could not adopt a course more likely to insure the good will and affec-ticns of the people than that of keeping a strict watch over the details of the administration of justice. His lordship concluded by moving, "That the proper officer do lay before the House, a copy of the Proceedings before the Coroner, and of the verdict of the Coroner's Jury on the body of William Culver deceased, in the prison of the Marshalsea,* in January last."—Ordered.
* The following were the depositions taken before the coroner respecting the death of this individual:
"Thomas Canfield, a prisoner in the said Marshalsea prison, on his oath, saith, That on or about the 15th of November last, the said Thomas Culver was brought into the said prison as a prisoner for debt, and he was then apparently well, but was taken ill soon after, and continued so till the day of his death, the 4th of January inst.; he says his complaint was a dysentery, that he was once during the time better, and had a relapse, but after that continued getting worse; he says, Mr. Phillips, the surgeon, attended him (luring his illness, and that he was taken necessary care of as far as the comforts of the prison afforded, and that he did not die in consequence of any ill treatment from the master of the prison, or any other person whomsoever, and that he believes that what he applied for to the keeper, by way of necessaries, he had; and that he had two shillings in his pocket when he died.
"Owen Tyndal, of the said prison, on his oath, saith. That on Thursday evening last he was desired to sit up with the said Thomas Culver, he being then very ill, and he went to him about eight o'clock on the Thursday evening, and found him so; and he continued with him till the Friday morning following, the 4lh of January, till about six o'clock, when he died. He says, he expressed satisfaction for the usage he had met with from Mr. Jenkins, the keeper, and from several other persons in the prison, and no complaint whatever.
"Andrew Kauffman, a prisoner in the said prison, on his oath, saith, That the said Thomas Culver came into the said prison in the month of November last, that he then appeared to be welt, and in about a fortnight afterwards he was taken iil, and continued so till about a fortnight ago, and then he came into his room